Great video as always Andy, thank you! From the conclusion of your video one testing idea sprung into my mind: What about sorting the batteries in the case in order of their capacity to maximize the overall battery pack performance? With the lowest capacity closest to the plus or minus "outbound" / BMS terminals and the highest ones in the middle. So if the cells are sorted by capacity from C01 to C016, with 01 being lowest and 16 highest, the order could be for example: Minus terminal -> C01 -> C03 -> C05 -> C07 -> C09 -> C11 -> C13 -> C15 -> C16 -> C14 -> C12 -> C10 -> C08 -> C06 -> C04 -> C02 -> Plus terminal. In another words, Put all odd numbered cells in one column with lowest number / capacity at the top and highest at the botom, and all even ones in other column in the same way. This way the largest losses over multiple busbars should be (at least partially if not entirely) compensated by the higher capacity / performance cells, thus pushing the overall battery pack's capacity to maximum.
Hello Andy! Thanks for the great and thorough testing you do on this channel. By far the best on UA-cam. I always love to see what you have up your sleeve. Looking forward to the next one. Happy Calibrating! 🍻
You would lose some energy, but the capacity reading (Ah) is not affected by bad connections or losses: the current is the same everywhere and independent of the losses. This is, by the way, one of the reasons we do capacity tests in Ah and not just measure Wh; the Wh reading is dependent on voltage and losses. I have a video on my channel where I make an extreme set-up of that with extremely long connection and lots of losses. The Wh test is way off, but the capacity test is not affected.
Yes, you're right. The thing forgot to mention is the BMS which was connected when we tested with the shunt. That consumes some energy as well. Temperature difference and different equipment also plays a role of course..
@@OffGridGarageAustralia The BMS might impact the Wh reading, but the Ah reading should be the same. Of course, different equipment and changes in temperature will affect both Ah and Wh reading.
@@tx2gnd AH difference (~304Ah vs 307Ah) is a result of: 1. Different discharge current (higher inside a pack (discharged with different load) - higher loss inside a cell - a little bit of capacity is unavaiable at higher current). 2. Charging to less than full in a pack. 3. Measurement inaccuracy
@Off-Grid Garage Hi Andreas, greetings from a fellow countryman from Germany. Quick question, I bought a Jakiper Jk48V100Pro on your recommendation. I had a quick look inside the battery. Unfortunately, not all battery cells have been insulated. The upper and lower battery bank are touching without foam insulation! Is this the same for your Jk48V100Pro or did I get a faulty assembly? Jakiper does not want to exchange the unit! What should I do now? Do you have any suggestion? Thank you!
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Each cell is covered only with its blue plastic film, but the cells are NOT separated by epoxy sheets or EVA tape! The battery cell 16# is touching battery 15#, 1# touches 14#, 2# touches 13# and so on. E.g. I measure 44V (!) between the case of battery 1# and the touching 14#. Do you think it is safe to operate cells without a separator (epoxy or EVA tape) and having 44V between them? I am looking forward to your answer. Thank you!
Hallo Andy Vielen Dank für deine tollen Videos!!!! Ich habe eine EEL V4 Box, hatte einige Probleme mit der Lieferung aber jetzt ist alles eingetroffen. Nun zu meinem Problem, Zelle 09 und 13 zeigen mir eine fallende Spannung beim Laden und eine steigende Spannung beim entladen!!!??? Doch wenn ich die Spannung mit dem Multimeter direkt an der Zelle messe stimmt sie überein mit den restlichen Zellen +- 3mV ! Beim laden oder entladen driften sie jedoch bis zu 150mV ab aber sogar in die falsche Richtung ( in der Seplos Softwareoberfläche bei laden abnehmende Spannung, beim entladen zunehmend Spannung). Ich habe alle Leitungen und Anschlüsse nochmals geprüft und gereinigt.....immer noch gleich. Hast du eine Vermutung, Idee? Gruss Hans Jürg Switzerland
Epic testing, Andy. Thanks for doing the leg-work. The cells are an interesting mix of A-Grade terminals (as I understand it the two-screw terminal is for higher current automotive use) and B-Grade markings. I'm somewhat unconvinced by the reasoning that capacity is lost in the connections and BMS; certainly energy is lost that way, but the electrons themselves do not get destroyed in the connections (Kirchhoff's first law). There may be some slight variation in capacity due to a lower discharge rate (40A versus 55A, although you have previously show this to have relatively small difference), in addition to a different charge pattern. And we're only talking about a 1% variation, and what's that between friends!
Yes, I explained this not quite right with the capacity loss. In the first full pack test, there was also the BMS still connected and doing it's thing while in the second test, we have tested the bare cells. Secondly, we used two different methods, currents (as you say) and devices to determine the capacity. There is always a variation in doing so as someone pointed out here in the comments.
My EVE batts have been awesome no issues at all no degradation in capacity no issues with my Dali BMS's either 2 years in My lead acid batts only lasted 2 years
I have some of the Version 2 + 3 of the stackable EEL Boxes in use. The Version 3 is really great. Also very good compression possible. Best wishes from -Friesland-
The holder for the NEEY is by default in the V3 Box. You can choose an option with the NEEY if you order a V3 Box. Then the box will come with BMS and NEEY. I have them in heavy use at our farm and in a full autark Installation with Wallbox for the cars. Work really great. Also without the NEEY. Would mean there is no need for an activ balancer after initial Setup.
@@antonewagen249all right. I thought they had the NEEY installed by default for some time. So, you're not running any active balancer with this BMS in your setup? What is your charge voltage?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Moin, right, no active balancer. I have one NEEY as Backup but never need it. Charge voltage ist up to 56.7 Volt. 56.7V because there is a 14s Nissan NMC battery in parallel.
I think testing at only 50A discharge current will always result in very favorable capacity readings. I also manage to get 300Ah from LF280k cells when tested at low currents. But these EVE cells have capacity specified at 0.5C charge/discharge currents. Lower the discharge current, lower the loss due to internal resistance.
This might have a bit of an effect on the result, but not by much. The curves show almost the same c-ratings when discharging with 0.1C and 1C. Here it was more the fact, that the first test had still the BMS connected, the temperature was different and probably mainly because I used two different testers.
There shouldn’t be any Ah losses due to internal resistance: Amps cannot get lost in a closed circuit. What is lost is energy ( in Wh) because the current is delivered at a lower voltage because of the voltage drop due to resistance*current
UK here. As an aside, I bought 4 Grade A Eve 280ah cells from Eel for my motorhome....From my limited experience i can highly recommend Eel battery...The experience from start to receiving the batteries was 1st class....I'll be ordering a pack of 16 from them in the coming days for my home diy battery build.
When I tested my EVE LF280K A grade, they were all around 278-280Ah (3.65 to 2.5); but when I tested the pack with the Seplos bms I got a low voltage protection (2.5V) after having only discharged to 8%, so 257.6Ah (although they were charged to 3.5V each and not 3.65V)
The capacity test of individual cells looked to be 40A. Compared with upto 70A during the earlier 16S test. This explains the difference between 1S & 16S test results. The measured voltage under high load by the BMS is lower than inside the cell under 0 load, BMS turns off too early. Once a cell reaches 2.8v during discharge test, you could reduce the load so battery drain is the similar 40A from the 40 to 57v battery (eg. 240v 7A load). A serial circuit doesn't loose current via resistance, the losses are voltage differences (multipled by current). During charging, the measured source voltage under load is higher than the cell voltage would be at rest. Cell temperature & time also affect results. As you know, cell voltage is not as reliable as a water gauge on a rainwater tank.
Yep, exactly. I didn't explain this correctly. I forgot to mention that in the first test, we still had the BMS connected while in the cell test, we only measured the bare cells. Smaller current, different temperatures, different test devices (smart shunt vs. ZKE). This all makes the difference.
Heya, nice test again. because of all test's you do your watchers are people how better untherstand these batteries. oh yeah only 20 vlog to go till I have seen all your vlog's
Andy, those are the cells that discharges faster and slower when connected with the pack, will have relation with their internal resistance more than with their individual capacity
Hi Andy, I've been following you since the beginning of this channel and I finally took the step to install an ESS system with Victron MultiplusII 5000, Cerbo GX and EEL Stackable Battery. Is there somewhere an overview available with your settings on the Seplos 10E BMS and NEEY 4A Active Balancer, wich are both installed in the EEL Battery, and your MultiplusII? I've been looking on your site, but couldn't find it. Keep making these video's, I really love them!
The BMS (and Balancer) also consumes Ah on pack side, not measured by the shunt. Would be interesting the self consumption of the BMS. My JBD has probaly a very high consumption due to the huge Relaise instead of MOSFETs.
Yes, I forgot to mention the BMS which was in line with the shunt when we did the capacity test. That was probably the main reason, we see a difference.
Ah are not consumed. The current is the same everywhere in the circuit, because it's in series. A measurement anywhere in the circuit for Ah will give the same results and will not be affected by voltage drops or losses. Wh on the other hand will be different - that's why Ah is a useful measurements because it is independent of bad connections, losses, etc.
Hi Mr Andy .I'm trying to balance cell15 via bms cables with a small buck converter . I do not have access to cell terminals. Charging with a voltage of 3.43v the cell does not accept current below 300 mA. What can be the cause? High internal resistance of the cell ? Buck converter not very powerful ? My ignorance? It is not easy to summarize in a few lines but I would like to understand. Complimenti per il suo lavoro divulgativo e la passione
That is very hard to tell. If it stops charging at 3.43V that could only mean, it has reached this voltage and is also saturated at this point. Do you have a variable power supply and can increase the voltage?
Yes. I have a buck converter cc cv 5 A max. Yesterday I loaded at 3.46v cell 15 . She accepted the charge ,so I stopped at 3.42 like the other cells . I balanced with a heltec 5A and everything seemed ok,9mV deviation .today, charging the battery with the inverter, cell 15 and back again at 3.38,while the other cells are at 3.42. I've seen all his videos since the beginning. You are a great . I probably have to go up to 3.45 and redo everything as you say in your videos
Wonderful video Andy 😊. The bms have some losses in it actually more than the connection losses I have the jk heats up to 45c when I take 80 A discharge current from the battery. In my experience with EVE and REPT EVE makes the best consistent cells even after 2.5 years my 105eve are more consistent than the new REPT package that is more consistent now because i put 3 new REPT cells and 2 new Lishen 270ah cells
Yep, exactly. I forgot to mention that. In the first test, we still had the BMS connected while in the cell test, we only measured the bare cells. Smaller current, different temperatures, different test devices (smart shunt vs. ZKE). This all makes the difference.
Check the torque on cell 11. It was the highest voltage when charging, and the lowest voltage when discharging. This could indicate a high-resistance connection, as you said.
We would have seen this cell peaking at the beginning when we had 70A of inrush current. Edit: just went out and tested all 4 screws for cell 11. All perfect on 7Nm...
@@onthelake9554 That was inferred. Not all cells were tested. It probably is, but if it was a bit loose we're using circular logic to assert that it's the lowest.
@@davidpenfold Not in my opinion , Andy was correct it would have shown up with the high amp charge had it been a loose connection . And yes all cells were tested though you may not have caught it , this was the easiest way to get them to show up .
Bonjour parler vous francais? J ai un souci pour brancher mes 2 seplos 48v 100 1 210ah et 2 200ah en parallèle c est possible un coup de main pour les branchement et reglage ? Onduleur de stockage me3000sp sofard
Hi Andy, Thanks for all you do! I'm new to this and in the middle of my project 3-Eg4 6000xp, 48 EVE LF304 cells, JBD-AP21S002 300A BMS. I bought form 18650 battery store. My question is: i wanted to make sure I have Lithium Iron Phosphate cells and not ion. Because I'm confused in one of your other videos you refer to the 18650 batteries as ion, and not iron, and all the China manuals say Lithium-ion. Please help my confusion. My batteries look the same as the one you tested in this video. Thanks Dave, Stay charged up!!
Great hAndy, I like your videos, and when you said all batteries are full, I'm questioning myself. If there are no consumption and panels, they produce too much energy. Is there something to do for that ?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia plenty of sun on your panels give you for instance 4kw and then at à moment batteries getting full and no consumption. Where those 4kw will go ? How panels and other components react on that ? I'm in ongrid, so if there is more than I need, it goes to grid. In off grid, it's not used but still produce. There is no issue with that ?
Why did we see a difference between the full pack and the single cell measurements: - Because of different measurement equipment - Because od differences in measurement conditions (ambient temperature, etc.)
The equipment was different as well and when measuring with the shunt, the whole BMS was in between as well (I forgot to mention that), so not only the terminal connections but also the BMS have obviously losses.
Andy you need a Name for the "Test-Area" , where all those "part Time" Batteries wait for a little bit of Love ;) ... Its now the "Off-Grid Battery Garage" if you keep on piling up all thoses .
You should open the xceier inverter and adjust the low voltage cutoff since you always use it with a BMS. Alot of inverters have a pot to adjust maybe this one does?
I have replaced the pot for the output voltage in this video but have not seen one for the under voltage cut off. I'll ask them if this has a permanent set in this device. ua-cam.com/video/uPhtOUbvrXc/v-deo.html
I like my EEL DIY battery too. I used my A grade EVE batteries though. Problem for me is the BMS. I’m not computer literate, giving me troubles. How’s about a video on the EEL BMS tutorial? Great show though!!
What does Monomer Overweight Protection mean. The dictionary definition doesn’t make sense to Lithium BMS’s. I’m setting up my Patreon right now!! 3 Spats coming your way Andy!!
Enjoyed that Andy - If you think about it the middle cells are discharging through the cells on each flank and since each cell has a small amount of resistance they sap power and generate a little heat - this I think is the main reason a full pack gives a little less capacity than the individual cells when tested. Bus bars. connections and driving the BMS will contribute - look on the bright side my biker friend in Norway always puts his headlights on why he gets his bike gear on in sub-zero temperatures - to give the lithium battery a little time to warm up before he starts the engine.
Cooles Video. Kleiner Tip am Rande, die PCB-Boards auf den Zellen brauchen noch ein paar Schrauben. EEL baut dort nur 2 oder 3 ein und legt die restlichen Schrauben dazu, war bei meinen 4 Boxen das Gleiche (V1 and V2).
28:30 sorry, that's complete nonsense. You can have the thinnest cables and the largest current. The current is *always the same everywhere in a circuit*. And since the time is also the same, the Ah are of course identical. These different capacities of 1-2% are just ghost hunting with these hobby grade devices, especially when the values from different devices are rolled.
Not quite, as we also had the BMS connected in the first test and the balancer caused a certain 'imbalance' in the battery (and your maths) as it discharges single cells.
My dude, I'm about to order the 48v 16 battery pack and a DIY box, but kinda scared, so much options, so much money, afraid of making the wrong decision, and will appreciate your input: (For my RV, fully off-grid, living in it) 1. 280 / 304 / 320? which brand? pros cons? or just do bigger 2. Grad B to save money or grade A? the difference is only in the capacity? 2. What DIY box to go with? 3. Your top recommended BMS? From all I can tell, one of the only reliable alibaba sources is Luyuan Amy Wan
That is a very difficult situation which only you can answer. Do you plan to get a second battery at some stage? Horizontal, vertical setup? How much energy do you need? What is you solar setup like? An how about your budget? There is not much difference between 280/304/320Ah. If you're tight capacity, get the largest ones (not sure if the 320Ah still fit in the box?). I would go with B-grade batteries but compare prices first. There is no capacity difference in A or B grade. Seplos or EEL both make good boxes and both have the Seplos BMS included. Reliable batterie cell suppliers are on my website: off-grid-garage.com/batteries/
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I'm not planing on getting a second one, it's a thight fit in my RV as it is, it's going to be on the floor, laying horizontal. My solar will grow with time and budget, my roof is only 7m x 2.3m. I will probably be able to fit 5-6 460w panels. I saw EEL and Splous, the box cost like 700usd without shipping, insane price compare to the 16p I'm planning on buying which will be 1800usd~. The amount of cycles and total life expectancy of B grade are the same as A?
🦦 Jeaah, the 15A Neeey is back and you are jumping around. 💫 Why so much hurry you don‘t have to do everything so fast are you on the run 😓 i just have tiny problems to follow the test 🥸 we love long andy tests in many parts, anyway is this the 50 mil variation of the anderson now 🤔 or just the jumper cable edition ? Well at least i understood that the camera is cutting the tube out 😂 so thx , nice one for a battery wall 🦥
This is interesting. I just bought an Epoch 300 Ah V2 battery here in the states. Its a single 300 Ah 4S1P battery. Apparently they are owned by EVE and use A grade EVE cells. . I assume they are using the A grade version of these cells (although im too chicken to crack my battery open to verify). A reviewer said he was getting 317Ah from them so far.
Epoch is the house brand for 18650 Battery Store. Apparently they have a direct working relationship with EVE and are a verified supplier of EVE cells directly from EVE, no middle man. Epoch 18650 and 21700’s are fairly popular, most because they priced their Samsung 25R clone (Epoch 25P?) at 99 cents recently and I saw on Reddit there were at least a couple people that made massive purchases of hundreds of cells. I was tempted to buy a bunch because they are great cells for making an E-bike/Scooter or practically anything with a motor since they have a 20A continuous discharge current. I kinda wish I got a few just to test AC and DC IR to see how they compare to some old’ish 25R’s from a Dewalt tool battery AFAIK 18650BS is one of the only companies in the US that you can buy genuine cells from. They were selling Grade B cells from REPT and CATL but looks like they’ve mostly stopped the B game reportedly from complaints but every review I saw on the DIYSolarForum gave rave reviews for the REPT cells specifically. Grade A LF304’s should be giving you just shy of 320Ah. 280’s should be giving you just shy of 290 although there were quite a few people talking about the K vs N models. One of them seemed to be quite disappointing as it appears they sacrificed capacity for cycle life with people testing and only getting 279-283Ah from what were supposedly Grade A cells. Grade B (when new) is often separated from the Grade A for physical imperfections and IR. IR should be 0.12 to 0.14 mR AC IR on 280’s and I believe the 304’s are very similar. Grade B are often 0.16 to 0.30 mR AC IR. In the EV application you need the low IR to stop cell voltage from plummeting when discharging in excess of 0.5C continuous and up to 2C burst. I would be VERY upset if I got cells measuring over 0.18mR AC IR on A Grade cells because that pretty much guarantees your ability to discharge above 0.75C is non existent. You’d see cell voltages drop below 3.20 from a fully charged state. SunFunKits (hate on them if you want to but the guy Austin? is right) has some great videos where he uses a big boy electronic load to discharge A vs B grade cells (some I suspect are used B grade). The difference is shocking. A grade cells will hold voltage well above 3.20V even with some pretty hefty discharge currents. The only downside to his testing is he does constant power testing and not constant current. In a way the CP testing is more representative of the real world because the power you are drawing with an inverter is in watts. If your battery voltage drops well that’s more amps required. And the battery voltage on B grade cells drops even further because you need to draw more amps to compensate for the lower voltage. It’s a good representation of the downfall of high IR cells. Now if your application is never discharging above 0.5C (the vast majority of all energy storage systems) then this issue isn’t terribly important. So long as your system can sustain the max power of your inverter you’ll never have major voltage drop issues. This is why I say for every 5kw of inverting power it’s best you have 15kwh of batteries to pull from so it’s at most a 0.33C. When you pair a 5kw inverter with a 5kwh server rack battery you are putting yourself in a situation to see voltage drop as low as 48V from full right off the bat if you are maxing out your inverter. What does that mean? Well instead of drawing 92A at say 54V for a 5kw power draw you will be drawing 104A at 48V. This is putting you on the edge of so many component limits for these 100A discharge batteries. If you just had A grade cells to start with you’d be fine but now you find yourself unable to max out your inverter even with a full battery, and a battery at 50% SOC….well shit 4kw might drive your cells to low voltage disconnect whereas the A Grade cells should still be well above 3V until you probably get down to about 10% or 20% SOC and then you might find a 5kw draw to be impossible. So as long as you have triple the battery storage vs inverting power this should be a non issue. At 2:1 you might see some issues at low SOC. At a 1:1 ratio you have essentially prevented yourself from using your inverters full power with B grade cells.
@@ericklein5097 interesting stuff. thanks for sharing. Considering my install is on a sailboat that will never see a load above 1500 watts, and its a 12 volt system that worked just fine on 12 volt lead acid batteries that would routinely draw down below 11.5 volts under load, it sounds like even B grade cells at their worst performance would be an substantial upgrade :P
Hey Andy, new JKBMS's has been just shipped, assuming you to be among first ones to receive it! For sake of community, could we get immediate review once you receive it :)
So far, all B-grade cells have performed the exact same way as so called certified automotive grade cells or A-grade. I made several video with tests: ua-cam.com/video/6PyANZWtKnY/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/hrWEGNS4jhY/v-deo.html
That's pretty tight capacities. When I ZKETested my 16 304Ah QSO batteries (yes, it took a ridiculous amount of time) the low outlier was just over 310Ah and most were about 312Ah, with the highest being 315 (I had to retest that one, which may be why). I'm getting 20 more (and testing every one 😭) to do a 32 cell battery, discarding the 4 lowest and paralleling at the cell level with each pair balanced to get even aggregate capacity per pair (if that makes sense). I'm looking at almost 32kWh if they have a similar capacity profile (based on 3.2V average over a discharge, but I think the average was 3.25 which would take us well over) 🤪
Thanks for sharing. That is pretty good quality from QSO again. Paralleling and optimising these cells is something for the moment, I guess. As they drift and get older, these pairs won't be as optimal any more in 1 year time, is my assumption, so maybe don't spend too much time with that.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Good point. I won't get too OCD over it! Just avoiding putting two of the lower capacity ones together, for example, which will impact the whole setup. And I guess over time I can use your high/low test to check which pairs are top and bottom performers and swap out a cell from each.
I suppose it depends on why the cells were downgraded to B grade, if it was just because of a wee dent that's one thing (probably the best reason) whereas if they are used that's a whole other thing and will probably come with a different set of issues 🤔 As usual Andy, great vid, informative and entertaining 😎👍😎
I think most B Grade cells are sold by EVE before adding the terminals, with companies like QSO buying them at auction and adding their own welded terminals. These cells appear to have got past that QC process because they seem to have the EVE terminals, but have been downgraded for other reasons (bumps, sub-optimal resistance with terminals(?), other stuff) so I'm guessing they are closer to proper grade A for high discharge/charge tests than QSO etc cells.
You never know why they have been downgraded. So far, all my storage grade cells have been great and I had no real issues using them in solar storage systems.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I read the EVE QA process which I think I got from the "LiFePoQR Battery QR Scanner" app after scanning my QSO cells. Assuming yours do have EVE terminals, they must have passed a suite of tests that are performed before adding the terminals (which is the state they are in for most auctions). They do tend to be fine for storage because the tests include things like running the cells at 2C discharge for 30s, which is not an issue for storage. Another difference I guess is that since they have added the terminals they've deliberately put a "B" on the cell QR code, to differentiate them from grade A cells, whereas all the ones using a different terminal are either grade B or even used grade B.
Hey man. I have a question; what do you think of LiFeYPO4 cells, have you tested them? Like Winston cells for example. supposedly they should allow charging/discharging at a larger temperature span and allow higher discharge rate up to 3C. They are more expensive then LiFePO4 cells though. I'm mainly interested in them because of the higher discharge rate for high power output applications like power tools etc without having an excessively large battery bank.
Most power tool batteries are rated at 10C, some of the newer pouch packs do 15C reliably, and Li ion weighs significantly less than LFP / LFYP batteries for the same amount of power. There's no reason to carry around a 4kg battery pack just so that your drill can receive the 800W it's used to from a 0.8kg battery. For storage applications, anything above 0.5C is probably going to be considered wasteful, you're heating up the battery cells and cables instead of doing useful work, and you're only storing enough power for less than 2 hours' usage.
@@stefanvanzyl9090 I mean corded power tools connected to a inverter/battery system. You could of course use battery tools, but they are expensive and the tool options are limited when i comes to certain applications like saw tables and welders. 15C for li-ion is impressive but considering these li-ion batteries are in the 4-10ah range capacity wise the power output is not that high or practical. If you have a larger battery bank you could connect batteries in parallell and get sufficient power output, but im looking for a 200ah system atm. That's why im considering LFYP cells since they provide 3C instead of the normal 1C for LFP batteries and apparently can tolerate colder climate charging/discharing too.
unless you're using industrial welders/saws, you're limited to circa 3500W for the appliance regardless, since 230V plugs are 14-16A rated. And since the preferred inverter DC battery voltage is 48V, even a 0.7C 100Ah LFP battery can achieve this, and last almost 1.5 hours doing it. If you use a 3C 40Ah battery (since you're min/maxing here to save costs and a 20Ah won't make 3500W), the battery will be flat in 30 minutes of work. As a corollary, the tesla powerwall 1 and 2 are 18650 cells in series/parallel to reach their 14kWh storage capacity - it's not unheard of. Lastly worth noting, most newer pure sine wave inverters have sufficient surge capability to handle striking an arc without drawing more from the batteries.
Yep, exactly. I didn't explain this correctly. I forgot to mention that in the first test, we still had the BMS connected while in the cell test, we only measured the bare cells. Smaller current, different temperatures, different test devices (smart shunt vs. ZKE). This all makes the difference.
Sad to say, EEL is gaining a reputation for NOT standing behind their products. The measure of a company is how they handle problems. And right now it looks like EEL is failing miserably. After initial back & forth "Howard" goes silent. One customer posted photos of a 4-cell unit that had obvious crush problems on one end, with a battery bolt pushing into the closest cell and the fuse broken. The top was not bolted down at the factory, which might have added structural support. After a bunch of tests and rigmarole they offered 28 screws to bolt the top down - assuming the customer can straighten out the sheet metal. The customer will have to replace his own damn fuse, and they have stopped communicating. With the cell damaged he's not willing to risk it and he now basically has a boat anchor. Another customer had much the same issue - the front end (where the battery connections are made) bashed in while the outside of the box looks fine. EEL did send a new fuse in that case and the cell was not visibly damaged. These are just two from a small Hymer van FB group. Others in the group have had no problem with EEL batteries they added. Caveat Emptor.
Frankly speaking, 304 Ah with discharge current of abt. 60A only. I don't know, what is so superb on it. If you would discharge with 150 A (as specified) then probably you would see that these cells are not so superb... 😉
Nope, tested all this in past videos with 200A, there is no difference in B-Grade and automotive cells. ua-cam.com/video/6PyANZWtKnY/v-deo.html All rumours and people trying to justify their more expensive spend on A-grade cells.
Before you all get too excited about EEL, I have had a poor customer experience with them. I ordered 2 V2 boxes and they forgot to ship both BMS, so I only have 1 box in use. They said they have shipped another BMS but it has not been picked up in over a week and is coming by sea not air. Very disappointing. As with everything else from the far east, it's all good until there is a problem, then the excuses and BS start.
EEL advertised grade A cells but sent me the most swollen cells ever and refused to exchange them. Alibaba did nothing about it. Worst shopping experience I've ever has there. I don't recommend EEL.
@OffGridGarageAustralia it was an ordeal of arguing with the sales rep and their management. I provided photos, evidence of our conversation (when they promised flat grade A cells). All to no avail. Alibaba having all the evidence still sided with them. All are crooks.
Great video as always Andy, thank you! From the conclusion of your video one testing idea sprung into my mind: What about sorting the batteries in the case in order of their capacity to maximize the overall battery pack performance? With the lowest capacity closest to the plus or minus "outbound" / BMS terminals and the highest ones in the middle. So if the cells are sorted by capacity from C01 to C016, with 01 being lowest and 16 highest, the order could be for example: Minus terminal -> C01 -> C03 -> C05 -> C07 -> C09 -> C11 -> C13 -> C15 -> C16 -> C14 -> C12 -> C10 -> C08 -> C06 -> C04 -> C02 -> Plus terminal. In another words, Put all odd numbered cells in one column with lowest number / capacity at the top and highest at the botom, and all even ones in other column in the same way. This way the largest losses over multiple busbars should be (at least partially if not entirely) compensated by the higher capacity / performance cells, thus pushing the overall battery pack's capacity to maximum.
Hello Andy! Thanks for the great and thorough testing you do on this channel. By far the best on UA-cam. I always love to see what you have up your sleeve. Looking forward to the next one. Happy Calibrating! 🍻
Thanks a lot for your feedback and kind words.
You would lose some energy, but the capacity reading (Ah) is not affected by bad connections or losses: the current is the same everywhere and independent of the losses. This is, by the way, one of the reasons we do capacity tests in Ah and not just measure Wh; the Wh reading is dependent on voltage and losses. I have a video on my channel where I make an extreme set-up of that with extremely long connection and lots of losses. The Wh test is way off, but the capacity test is not affected.
Yes, you're right. The thing forgot to mention is the BMS which was connected when we tested with the shunt. That consumes some energy as well. Temperature difference and different equipment also plays a role of course..
@@OffGridGarageAustralia The BMS might impact the Wh reading, but the Ah reading should be the same. Of course, different equipment and changes in temperature will affect both Ah and Wh reading.
@@tx2gnd AH difference (~304Ah vs 307Ah) is a result of:
1. Different discharge current (higher inside a pack (discharged with different load) - higher loss inside a cell - a little bit of capacity is unavaiable at higher current).
2. Charging to less than full in a pack.
3. Measurement inaccuracy
Great video Andy, many thanks.
Thank you!
Thanks for testing these. I wanted to buy from them but was lacking any testing or reviews.
Now, if the wife will let me, I can buy the kit from them.
Wife approval is the hardest to get.
Don't forget the links on my website to support the channel: off-grid-garage.com/diy-kits/
More videos pls ❤
Mr Multiplex, thank you very much for your ongoing support!
@Off-Grid Garage Hi Andreas, greetings from a fellow countryman from Germany. Quick question, I bought a Jakiper Jk48V100Pro on your recommendation. I had a quick look inside the battery. Unfortunately, not all battery cells have been insulated. The upper and lower battery bank are touching without foam insulation! Is this the same for your Jk48V100Pro or did I get a faulty assembly? Jakiper does not want to exchange the unit! What should I do now? Do you have any suggestion? Thank you!
You mean, the cells are touching the bare metal of the case without any epoxy sheets or EVA tape?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Each cell is covered only with its blue plastic film, but the cells are NOT separated by epoxy sheets or EVA tape! The battery cell 16# is touching battery 15#, 1# touches 14#, 2# touches 13# and so on. E.g. I measure 44V (!) between the case of battery 1# and the touching 14#. Do you think it is safe to operate cells without a separator (epoxy or EVA tape) and having 44V between them? I am looking forward to your answer. Thank you!
Hallo Andy
Vielen Dank für deine tollen Videos!!!!
Ich habe eine EEL V4 Box, hatte einige Probleme mit der Lieferung aber jetzt ist alles eingetroffen. Nun zu meinem Problem, Zelle 09 und 13 zeigen mir eine fallende Spannung beim Laden und eine steigende Spannung beim entladen!!!??? Doch wenn ich die Spannung mit dem Multimeter direkt an der Zelle messe stimmt sie überein mit den restlichen Zellen +- 3mV ! Beim laden oder entladen driften sie jedoch bis zu 150mV ab aber sogar in die falsche Richtung ( in der Seplos Softwareoberfläche bei laden abnehmende Spannung, beim entladen zunehmend Spannung).
Ich habe alle Leitungen und Anschlüsse nochmals geprüft und gereinigt.....immer noch gleich.
Hast du eine Vermutung, Idee?
Gruss Hans Jürg Switzerland
Great Job Andy , nice quick way to determine hi/lo cap cells .
Thanks 👍
Great test, great cells. You are great 👍👍👍
Thank you😊
Epic testing, Andy. Thanks for doing the leg-work. The cells are an interesting mix of A-Grade terminals (as I understand it the two-screw terminal is for higher current automotive use) and B-Grade markings.
I'm somewhat unconvinced by the reasoning that capacity is lost in the connections and BMS; certainly energy is lost that way, but the electrons themselves do not get destroyed in the connections (Kirchhoff's first law). There may be some slight variation in capacity due to a lower discharge rate (40A versus 55A, although you have previously show this to have relatively small difference), in addition to a different charge pattern. And we're only talking about a 1% variation, and what's that between friends!
Yes, I explained this not quite right with the capacity loss.
In the first full pack test, there was also the BMS still connected and doing it's thing while in the second test, we have tested the bare cells. Secondly, we used two different methods, currents (as you say) and devices to determine the capacity. There is always a variation in doing so as someone pointed out here in the comments.
My EVE batts have been awesome no issues at all no degradation in capacity no issues with my Dali BMS's either 2 years in
My lead acid batts only lasted 2 years
Great. Yeah, it's a huge upgrade when you come from lead acid.
I have some of the Version 2 + 3 of the stackable EEL Boxes in use. The Version 3 is really great. Also very good compression possible.
Best wishes from -Friesland-
Does the stackable version come with a NEEY by default?
The holder for the NEEY is by default in the V3 Box. You can choose an option with the NEEY if you order a V3 Box. Then the box will come with BMS and NEEY.
I have them in heavy use at our farm and in a full autark Installation with Wallbox for the cars. Work really great. Also without the NEEY. Would mean there is no need for an activ balancer after initial Setup.
@@antonewagen249all right. I thought they had the NEEY installed by default for some time.
So, you're not running any active balancer with this BMS in your setup? What is your charge voltage?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Moin, right, no active balancer. I have one NEEY as Backup but never need it. Charge voltage ist up to 56.7 Volt. 56.7V because there is a 14s Nissan NMC battery in parallel.
I have purchased 100ah Grade A cells from these folks, cells tested great and I built 2 24v 100ah batteries out of them.
Great, thanks for your feedback.
Great test Andy, what a smile...💙👊😎
Thanks 👍 It's time for some smiles 😊
I think testing at only 50A discharge current will always result in very favorable capacity readings.
I also manage to get 300Ah from LF280k cells when tested at low currents.
But these EVE cells have capacity specified at 0.5C charge/discharge currents.
Lower the discharge current, lower the loss due to internal resistance.
This might have a bit of an effect on the result, but not by much. The curves show almost the same c-ratings when discharging with 0.1C and 1C.
Here it was more the fact, that the first test had still the BMS connected, the temperature was different and probably mainly because I used two different testers.
There shouldn’t be any Ah losses due to internal resistance: Amps cannot get lost in a closed circuit. What is lost is energy ( in Wh) because the current is delivered at a lower voltage because of the voltage drop due to resistance*current
UK here. As an aside, I bought 4 Grade A Eve 280ah cells from Eel for my motorhome....From my limited experience i can highly recommend Eel battery...The experience from start to receiving the batteries was 1st class....I'll be ordering a pack of 16 from them in the coming days for my home diy battery build.
When I tested my EVE LF280K A grade, they were all around 278-280Ah (3.65 to 2.5); but when I tested the pack with the Seplos bms I got a low voltage protection (2.5V) after having only discharged to 8%, so 257.6Ah (although they were charged to 3.5V each and not 3.65V)
The capacity test of individual cells looked to be 40A. Compared with upto 70A during the earlier 16S test. This explains the difference between 1S & 16S test results.
The measured voltage under high load by the BMS is lower than inside the cell under 0 load, BMS turns off too early.
Once a cell reaches 2.8v during discharge test, you could reduce the load so battery drain is the similar 40A from the 40 to 57v battery (eg. 240v 7A load).
A serial circuit doesn't loose current via resistance, the losses are voltage differences (multipled by current).
During charging, the measured source voltage under load is higher than the cell voltage would be at rest. Cell temperature & time also affect results. As you know, cell voltage is not as reliable as a water gauge on a rainwater tank.
Yep, exactly. I didn't explain this correctly. I forgot to mention that in the first test, we still had the BMS connected while in the cell test, we only measured the bare cells.
Smaller current, different temperatures, different test devices (smart shunt vs. ZKE). This all makes the difference.
Genuine grade B are well worth the momey. My Eve280K grade B tested great.
Cheers Andy
Yes, absolutely. I would not buy anything else.
Heya, nice test again. because of all test's you do your watchers are people how better untherstand these batteries. oh yeah only 20 vlog to go till I have seen all your vlog's
Andy, those are the cells that discharges faster and slower when connected with the pack, will have relation with their internal resistance more than with their individual capacity
Time will tell... I don't think internal resistance is a big issue.
Hi Andy, I've been following you since the beginning of this channel and I finally took the step to install an ESS system with Victron MultiplusII 5000, Cerbo GX and EEL Stackable Battery. Is there somewhere an overview available with your settings on the Seplos 10E BMS and NEEY 4A Active Balancer, wich are both installed in the EEL Battery, and your MultiplusII? I've been looking on your site, but couldn't find it.
Keep making these video's, I really love them!
The BMS (and Balancer) also consumes Ah on pack side, not measured by the shunt.
Would be interesting the self consumption of the BMS.
My JBD has probaly a very high consumption due to the huge Relaise instead of MOSFETs.
Yes, I forgot to mention the BMS which was in line with the shunt when we did the capacity test. That was probably the main reason, we see a difference.
Ah are not consumed. The current is the same everywhere in the circuit, because it's in series. A measurement anywhere in the circuit for Ah will give the same results and will not be affected by voltage drops or losses. Wh on the other hand will be different - that's why Ah is a useful measurements because it is independent of bad connections, losses, etc.
Hi Mr Andy .I'm trying to balance cell15 via bms cables with a small buck converter . I do not have access to cell terminals. Charging with a voltage of 3.43v the cell does not accept current below 300 mA. What can be the cause? High internal resistance of the cell ? Buck converter not very powerful ? My ignorance? It is not easy to summarize in a few lines but I would like to understand. Complimenti per il suo lavoro divulgativo e la passione
That is very hard to tell. If it stops charging at 3.43V that could only mean, it has reached this voltage and is also saturated at this point.
Do you have a variable power supply and can increase the voltage?
Yes. I have a buck converter cc cv 5 A max. Yesterday I loaded at 3.46v cell 15 . She accepted the charge ,so I stopped at 3.42 like the other cells . I balanced with a heltec 5A and everything seemed ok,9mV deviation .today, charging the battery with the inverter, cell 15 and back again at 3.38,while the other cells are at 3.42. I've seen all his videos since the beginning. You are a great . I probably have to go up to 3.45 and redo everything as you say in your videos
Wonderful video Andy 😊. The bms have some losses in it actually more than the connection losses I have the jk heats up to 45c when I take 80 A discharge current from the battery. In my experience with EVE and REPT EVE makes the best consistent cells even after 2.5 years my 105eve are more consistent than the new REPT package that is more consistent now because i put 3 new REPT cells and 2 new Lishen 270ah cells
Yep, exactly. I forgot to mention that. In the first test, we still had the BMS connected while in the cell test, we only measured the bare cells.
Smaller current, different temperatures, different test devices (smart shunt vs. ZKE). This all makes the difference.
Big active balancer for big man 💪
Ma, this thing is amazing for my purposes.
Check the torque on cell 11. It was the highest voltage when charging, and the lowest voltage when discharging. This could indicate a high-resistance connection, as you said.
I was surprised he didn't do that, having mentioned it earlier.
We would have seen this cell peaking at the beginning when we had 70A of inrush current.
Edit: just went out and tested all 4 screws for cell 11. All perfect on 7Nm...
The reason it did this was shown . It has the smallest capacity .
@@onthelake9554 That was inferred. Not all cells were tested. It probably is, but if it was a bit loose we're using circular logic to assert that it's the lowest.
@@davidpenfold Not in my opinion , Andy was correct it would have shown up with the high amp charge had it been a loose connection . And yes all cells were tested though you may not have caught it , this was the easiest way to get them to show up .
Bonjour parler vous francais?
J ai un souci pour brancher mes 2 seplos 48v 100 1 210ah et 2 200ah en parallèle c est possible un coup de main pour les branchement et reglage ?
Onduleur de stockage me3000sp sofard
Neee, nix Französisch hier, nur Englisch!
Hi Andy, Thanks for all you do! I'm new to this and in the middle of my project 3-Eg4 6000xp, 48 EVE LF304 cells, JBD-AP21S002 300A BMS. I bought form 18650 battery store. My question is: i wanted to make sure I have Lithium Iron Phosphate cells and not ion. Because I'm confused in one of your other videos you refer to the 18650 batteries as ion, and not iron, and all the China manuals say Lithium-ion. Please help my confusion. My batteries look the same as the one you tested in this video. Thanks Dave, Stay charged up!!
Great hAndy, I like your videos, and when you said all batteries are full, I'm questioning myself. If there are no consumption and panels, they produce too much energy. Is there something to do for that ?
What do you mean by 'they produce too much energy'?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia plenty of sun on your panels give you for instance 4kw and then at à moment batteries getting full and no consumption. Where those 4kw will go ? How panels and other components react on that ? I'm in ongrid, so if there is more than I need, it goes to grid. In off grid, it's not used but still produce. There is no issue with that ?
Why did we see a difference between the full pack and the single cell measurements:
- Because of different measurement equipment
- Because od differences in measurement conditions (ambient temperature, etc.)
The equipment was different as well and when measuring with the shunt, the whole BMS was in between as well (I forgot to mention that), so not only the terminal connections but also the BMS have obviously losses.
Andy you need a Name for the "Test-Area" , where all those "part Time" Batteries wait for a little bit of Love ;) ... Its now the "Off-Grid Battery Garage" if you keep on piling up all thoses .
Soon, my friend, soon...😉
You should open the xceier inverter and adjust the low voltage cutoff since you always use it with a BMS. Alot of inverters have a pot to adjust maybe this one does?
I have replaced the pot for the output voltage in this video but have not seen one for the under voltage cut off. I'll ask them if this has a permanent set in this device.
ua-cam.com/video/uPhtOUbvrXc/v-deo.html
I like my EEL DIY battery too. I used my A grade EVE batteries though.
Problem for me is the BMS. I’m not computer literate, giving me troubles.
How’s about a video on the EEL BMS tutorial?
Great show though!!
I can make a video about the setup again, show some of the core parameters and also upload the settings file to my website.
What does Monomer Overweight Protection mean. The dictionary definition doesn’t make sense to Lithium BMS’s.
I’m setting up my Patreon right now!! 3 Spats coming your way Andy!!
Enjoyed that Andy - If you think about it the middle cells are discharging through the cells on each flank and since each cell has a small amount of resistance they sap power and generate a little heat - this I think is the main reason a full pack gives a little less capacity than the individual cells when tested. Bus bars. connections and driving the BMS will contribute - look on the bright side my biker friend in Norway always puts his headlights on why he gets his bike gear on in sub-zero temperatures - to give the lithium battery a little time to warm up before he starts the engine.
Cooles Video. Kleiner Tip am Rande, die PCB-Boards auf den Zellen brauchen noch ein paar Schrauben. EEL baut dort nur 2 oder 3 ein und legt die restlichen Schrauben dazu, war bei meinen 4 Boxen das Gleiche (V1 and V2).
Ah, yes, right, I have some screws left in this little container. I saw the holes in the PCB but totally forgot about adding them.
Thanks!
So, you just charge and discharged an individual cell in a battery with busbars connected.
Cool!! I was wondering if I could do that
Yes, you can if everything else is disconnected. Hence I had disconnected the balance cables to the BMS at the top.
28:30 sorry, that's complete nonsense. You can have the thinnest cables and the largest current. The current is *always the same everywhere in a circuit*. And since the time is also the same, the Ah are of course identical.
These different capacities of 1-2% are just ghost hunting with these hobby grade devices, especially when the values from different devices are rolled.
Not quite, as we also had the BMS connected in the first test and the balancer caused a certain 'imbalance' in the battery (and your maths) as it discharges single cells.
My dude, I'm about to order the 48v 16 battery pack and a DIY box, but kinda scared, so much options, so much money, afraid of making the wrong decision, and will appreciate your input:
(For my RV, fully off-grid, living in it)
1. 280 / 304 / 320? which brand? pros cons? or just do bigger
2. Grad B to save money or grade A? the difference is only in the capacity?
2. What DIY box to go with?
3. Your top recommended BMS?
From all I can tell, one of the only reliable alibaba sources is Luyuan Amy Wan
That is a very difficult situation which only you can answer.
Do you plan to get a second battery at some stage? Horizontal, vertical setup? How much energy do you need? What is you solar setup like? An how about your budget?
There is not much difference between 280/304/320Ah. If you're tight capacity, get the largest ones (not sure if the 320Ah still fit in the box?).
I would go with B-grade batteries but compare prices first. There is no capacity difference in A or B grade.
Seplos or EEL both make good boxes and both have the Seplos BMS included.
Reliable batterie cell suppliers are on my website: off-grid-garage.com/batteries/
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I'm not planing on getting a second one, it's a thight fit in my RV as it is, it's going to be on the floor, laying horizontal. My solar will grow with time and budget, my roof is only 7m x 2.3m. I will probably be able to fit 5-6 460w panels. I saw EEL and Splous, the box cost like 700usd without shipping, insane price compare to the 16p I'm planning on buying which will be 1800usd~. The amount of cycles and total life expectancy of B grade are the same as A?
🦦 Jeaah, the 15A Neeey is back and you are jumping around. 💫 Why so much hurry you don‘t have to do everything so fast are you on the run 😓 i just have tiny problems to follow the test 🥸 we love long andy tests in many parts, anyway is this the 50 mil variation of the anderson now 🤔 or just the jumper cable edition ? Well at least i understood that the camera is cutting the tube out 😂 so thx , nice one for a battery wall 🦥
Always hate it when everything goes dark and I am trying to remember where all the flashlights ran off to.
Are there any Videos so far were you discuss when a 16sp2 , or 16s3 Setting makes Sense or when a 18s Battery might be a good Idea ?
We have discussed the p-setup a while back but I can do another video as a refresher...
This is interesting. I just bought an Epoch 300 Ah V2 battery here in the states. Its a single 300 Ah 4S1P battery. Apparently they are owned by EVE and use A grade EVE cells. . I assume they are using the A grade version of these cells (although im too chicken to crack my battery open to verify). A reviewer said he was getting 317Ah from them so far.
Epoch is the house brand for 18650 Battery Store. Apparently they have a direct working relationship with EVE and are a verified supplier of EVE cells directly from EVE, no middle man.
Epoch 18650 and 21700’s are fairly popular, most because they priced their Samsung 25R clone (Epoch 25P?) at 99 cents recently and I saw on Reddit there were at least a couple people that made massive purchases of hundreds of cells. I was tempted to buy a bunch because they are great cells for making an E-bike/Scooter or practically anything with a motor since they have a 20A continuous discharge current. I kinda wish I got a few just to test AC and DC IR to see how they compare to some old’ish 25R’s from a Dewalt tool battery
AFAIK 18650BS is one of the only companies in the US that you can buy genuine cells from. They were selling Grade B cells from REPT and CATL but looks like they’ve mostly stopped the B game reportedly from complaints but every review I saw on the DIYSolarForum gave rave reviews for the REPT cells specifically.
Grade A LF304’s should be giving you just shy of 320Ah. 280’s should be giving you just shy of 290 although there were quite a few people talking about the K vs N models. One of them seemed to be quite disappointing as it appears they sacrificed capacity for cycle life with people testing and only getting 279-283Ah from what were supposedly Grade A cells.
Grade B (when new) is often separated from the Grade A for physical imperfections and IR. IR should be 0.12 to 0.14 mR AC IR on 280’s and I believe the 304’s are very similar. Grade B are often 0.16 to 0.30 mR AC IR. In the EV application you need the low IR to stop cell voltage from plummeting when discharging in excess of 0.5C continuous and up to 2C burst. I would be VERY upset if I got cells measuring over 0.18mR AC IR on A Grade cells because that pretty much guarantees your ability to discharge above 0.75C is non existent. You’d see cell voltages drop below 3.20 from a fully charged state. SunFunKits (hate on them if you want to but the guy Austin? is right) has some great videos where he uses a big boy electronic load to discharge A vs B grade cells (some I suspect are used B grade). The difference is shocking. A grade cells will hold voltage well above 3.20V even with some pretty hefty discharge currents. The only downside to his testing is he does constant power testing and not constant current. In a way the CP testing is more representative of the real world because the power you are drawing with an inverter is in watts. If your battery voltage drops well that’s more amps required. And the battery voltage on B grade cells drops even further because you need to draw more amps to compensate for the lower voltage. It’s a good representation of the downfall of high IR cells.
Now if your application is never discharging above 0.5C (the vast majority of all energy storage systems) then this issue isn’t terribly important. So long as your system can sustain the max power of your inverter you’ll never have major voltage drop issues. This is why I say for every 5kw of inverting power it’s best you have 15kwh of batteries to pull from so it’s at most a 0.33C. When you pair a 5kw inverter with a 5kwh server rack battery you are putting yourself in a situation to see voltage drop as low as 48V from full right off the bat if you are maxing out your inverter. What does that mean? Well instead of drawing 92A at say 54V for a 5kw power draw you will be drawing 104A at 48V. This is putting you on the edge of so many component limits for these 100A discharge batteries. If you just had A grade cells to start with you’d be fine but now you find yourself unable to max out your inverter even with a full battery, and a battery at 50% SOC….well shit 4kw might drive your cells to low voltage disconnect whereas the A Grade cells should still be well above 3V until you probably get down to about 10% or 20% SOC and then you might find a 5kw draw to be impossible.
So as long as you have triple the battery storage vs inverting power this should be a non issue.
At 2:1 you might see some issues at low SOC.
At a 1:1 ratio you have essentially prevented yourself from using your inverters full power with B grade cells.
@@ericklein5097 interesting stuff. thanks for sharing. Considering my install is on a sailboat that will never see a load above 1500 watts, and its a 12 volt system that worked just fine on 12 volt lead acid batteries that would routinely draw down below 11.5 volts under load, it sounds like even B grade cells at their worst performance would be an substantial upgrade :P
Hey Andy, new JKBMS's has been just shipped, assuming you to be among first ones to receive it! For sake of community, could we get immediate review once you receive it :)
Man, I have the Frankenstein battery sitting here and watch the mailbox with eagle eyes. Top priority once it arrives!
Hi Andy and thanks again for this video..good result, these grade B cells work well, I'm not sure that this is the case for all grade B cells??
So far, all B-grade cells have performed the exact same way as so called certified automotive grade cells or A-grade. I made several video with tests:
ua-cam.com/video/6PyANZWtKnY/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/hrWEGNS4jhY/v-deo.html
That's pretty tight capacities.
When I ZKETested my 16 304Ah QSO batteries (yes, it took a ridiculous amount of time) the low outlier was just over 310Ah and most were about 312Ah, with the highest being 315 (I had to retest that one, which may be why).
I'm getting 20 more (and testing every one 😭) to do a 32 cell battery, discarding the 4 lowest and paralleling at the cell level with each pair balanced to get even aggregate capacity per pair (if that makes sense). I'm looking at almost 32kWh if they have a similar capacity profile (based on 3.2V average over a discharge, but I think the average was 3.25 which would take us well over) 🤪
Thanks for sharing. That is pretty good quality from QSO again.
Paralleling and optimising these cells is something for the moment, I guess. As they drift and get older, these pairs won't be as optimal any more in 1 year time, is my assumption, so maybe don't spend too much time with that.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Good point. I won't get too OCD over it! Just avoiding putting two of the lower capacity ones together, for example, which will impact the whole setup.
And I guess over time I can use your high/low test to check which pairs are top and bottom performers and swap out a cell from each.
@@davidpenfoldI would probably do the same and optimise it as much as I can. It will be a long term experiment for sure.
👌👍
Mining? Could try BOINC instead of waste electricity on scrypt hashes.
The computer uses only 150W though under full load so that's not cutting it for excess power.
Qual será o grau de degradação destas células "B" depois de 1 ano de uso? Elas vão ficar inchadas? só o tempo dirá.
I suppose it depends on why the cells were downgraded to B grade, if it was just because of a wee dent that's one thing (probably the best reason) whereas if they are used that's a whole other thing and will probably come with a different set of issues 🤔
As usual Andy, great vid, informative and entertaining 😎👍😎
I think most B Grade cells are sold by EVE before adding the terminals, with companies like QSO buying them at auction and adding their own welded terminals.
These cells appear to have got past that QC process because they seem to have the EVE terminals, but have been downgraded for other reasons (bumps, sub-optimal resistance with terminals(?), other stuff) so I'm guessing they are closer to proper grade A for high discharge/charge tests than QSO etc cells.
You never know why they have been downgraded. So far, all my storage grade cells have been great and I had no real issues using them in solar storage systems.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I read the EVE QA process which I think I got from the "LiFePoQR Battery QR Scanner" app after scanning my QSO cells. Assuming yours do have EVE terminals, they must have passed a suite of tests that are performed before adding the terminals (which is the state they are in for most auctions).
They do tend to be fine for storage because the tests include things like running the cells at 2C discharge for 30s, which is not an issue for storage.
Another difference I guess is that since they have added the terminals they've deliberately put a "B" on the cell QR code, to differentiate them from grade A cells, whereas all the ones using a different terminal are either grade B or even used grade B.
Like #40 Damn YT didn’t notify me! And I’m trained like Pavlov’s dog for the release time! 😝
Hey man. I have a question; what do you think of LiFeYPO4 cells, have you tested them? Like Winston cells for example. supposedly they should allow charging/discharging at a larger temperature span and allow higher discharge rate up to 3C. They are more expensive then LiFePO4 cells though. I'm mainly interested in them because of the higher discharge rate for high power output applications like power tools etc without having an excessively large battery bank.
Most power tool batteries are rated at 10C, some of the newer pouch packs do 15C reliably, and Li ion weighs significantly less than LFP / LFYP batteries for the same amount of power. There's no reason to carry around a 4kg battery pack just so that your drill can receive the 800W it's used to from a 0.8kg battery.
For storage applications, anything above 0.5C is probably going to be considered wasteful, you're heating up the battery cells and cables instead of doing useful work, and you're only storing enough power for less than 2 hours' usage.
I have not tested these batteries. Is using LFP batteries for tools a thing? I have only ever seen Li-ion so far.
@@stefanvanzyl9090 I mean corded power tools connected to a inverter/battery system. You could of course use battery tools, but they are expensive and the tool options are limited when i comes to certain applications like saw tables and welders. 15C for li-ion is impressive but considering these li-ion batteries are in the 4-10ah range capacity wise the power output is not that high or practical. If you have a larger battery bank you could connect batteries in parallell and get sufficient power output, but im looking for a 200ah system atm. That's why im considering LFYP cells since they provide 3C instead of the normal 1C for LFP batteries and apparently can tolerate colder climate charging/discharing too.
unless you're using industrial welders/saws, you're limited to circa 3500W for the appliance regardless, since 230V plugs are 14-16A rated.
And since the preferred inverter DC battery voltage is 48V, even a 0.7C 100Ah LFP battery can achieve this, and last almost 1.5 hours doing it.
If you use a 3C 40Ah battery (since you're min/maxing here to save costs and a 20Ah won't make 3500W), the battery will be flat in 30 minutes of work.
As a corollary, the tesla powerwall 1 and 2 are 18650 cells in series/parallel to reach their 14kWh storage capacity - it's not unheard of.
Lastly worth noting, most newer pure sine wave inverters have sufficient surge capability to handle striking an arc without drawing more from the batteries.
Hows about a white board note board, for the stops and start times and quick reference notes, instead of the scratching head motion.....????
It's not a news channel, my friend.
Hi Andy what do The offgrid Garage (Andy and Andy two thinking about burning lifepo cells)
When you are performing a coulomb counting, the heat loss in the wire/bussbar is not relevant, as you are measuring direct the current....
Yep, exactly. I didn't explain this correctly. I forgot to mention that in the first test, we still had the BMS connected while in the cell test, we only measured the bare cells.
Smaller current, different temperatures, different test devices (smart shunt vs. ZKE). This all makes the difference.
What are you mining and on what?
It's just a test when I have excess power... I'll do a separate video about that.
Im just waiting for QLD to set a limit on how much lithium you can have on your property with bushfire fighting risk etc etc.
Well, there is no limit on how much fuel you can store in a shed apparently. I know 2 people which are bit nuts with that...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Ah yes, the Blown-Off-The-Grid-Garage. Great channel. Explosive content.
Sad to say, EEL is gaining a reputation for NOT standing behind their products. The measure of a company is how they handle problems. And right now it looks like EEL is failing miserably. After initial back & forth "Howard" goes silent.
One customer posted photos of a 4-cell unit that had obvious crush problems on one end, with a battery bolt pushing into the closest cell and the fuse broken. The top was not bolted down at the factory, which might have added structural support. After a bunch of tests and rigmarole they offered 28 screws to bolt the top down - assuming the customer can straighten out the sheet metal. The customer will have to replace his own damn fuse, and they have stopped communicating. With the cell damaged he's not willing to risk it and he now basically has a boat anchor.
Another customer had much the same issue - the front end (where the battery connections are made) bashed in while the outside of the box looks fine. EEL did send a new fuse in that case and the cell was not visibly damaged.
These are just two from a small Hymer van FB group. Others in the group have had no problem with EEL batteries they added. Caveat Emptor.
Frankly speaking, 304 Ah with discharge current of abt. 60A only. I don't know, what is so superb on it. If you would discharge with 150 A (as specified) then probably you would see that these cells are not so superb... 😉
Nope, tested all this in past videos with 200A, there is no difference in B-Grade and automotive cells. ua-cam.com/video/6PyANZWtKnY/v-deo.html
All rumours and people trying to justify their more expensive spend on A-grade cells.
Hey.. at 10:34 .. which crypto miner are you talking about?
I have one running for a while if I have surplus energy. I'll make a video about that setup... It's just for testing purposes at the moment.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia oh great... Which miner is it?
Waiting for the video 👍
Hope that garage has good security you yhave like 100k worth of stuff in there
CCTV, dogs and an angry wife to protect everything.
100k... hahaha, that's a bit... haven't got these gold-batteries yet!
Before you all get too excited about EEL, I have had a poor customer experience with them.
I ordered 2 V2 boxes and they forgot to ship both BMS, so I only have 1 box in use. They said they have shipped another BMS but it has not been picked up in over a week and is coming by sea not air. Very disappointing.
As with everything else from the far east, it's all good until there is a problem, then the excuses and BS start.
Thanks for sharing. I think they will read here as well and hopefully send you the forgotten BMS quickly. Keep complaining.
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Manchmal denke ich mir hätte man doch noch warten sollen ?
Waiting for what?
Electric Eel
Yes, exactly ⚡🐟
EEL advertised grade A cells but sent me the most swollen cells ever and refused to exchange them. Alibaba did nothing about it. Worst shopping experience I've ever has there. I don't recommend EEL.
Have they not replied to you and offered a solution? Do your batteries have a B on the QR code as well as mine have?
@OffGridGarageAustralia it was an ordeal of arguing with the sales rep and their management. I provided photos, evidence of our conversation (when they promised flat grade A cells). All to no avail. Alibaba having all the evidence still sided with them. All are crooks.
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