easiest way to resolve the non-identity problem is to simply reject that that people wouldn't mind being born in a hellscape / with immense suffering. The only reason our intuition says they would choose to live, is because the people who don't think life is worth living, obviously aren't around to tell us that. And secondly, most people whose life aren't worth living currently, WAS worth living at some point. And so those life experiences are what keep them from saying no. But obviously the kind of people we're considering in our hypotheticals, must have lives not worth living from birth. And we simply don't have enough experience with those kinds of people to draw reliably conclusions from our intuitions. One must never forget that suicide one of the leading causes of death for a reason. Because life just isn't worth living as often as we think it is.
Not sure if this is completely accurate. I am glad to be alive now despite existing in a time where climate change poses an existential threat to our future and natural disasters are becoming much worse, forest fires are too etc. If 50 years ago the US and other nations embarked on a more ambitious climate plan which didn't lead to the situation we find ourselves in, I certainly would not exist (neither would you unless you're older than 50). I think it's true that if things got bad enough people would no longer want to live in a hellscape, but in that case this doesn't pertain to the non identity problem because the problem stipulates cases in which the individuals in question have lives that are still worth living. So I don't think that really solves the non identity problem
@@oliverniehaus7159 if you genuinely think the freaking abstract fear of climate change, is remotely comparable to the things people experience that actually lead them to suicide, I don't know how we can have a conversation. It's like comparing watching a video of a 4 hour torture proceeding and actually living it. My point was we have no authority to say if someone else's life is worth living. Worth and value are entirely subjective to each individual. It cannot be ascribed by us like the non identity problem suggests.
@@oliverniehaus7159 Just because YOUR life is okay or great from your perspective, does not gaurentee that your child's life is going to be good or great. It's always a gamble to bring someone new into this existence although the one of the few things thats gauranteed that's bad is dying. We dont know how we'll die. Some people die slowly and in great pain like my dad did last month from cancer and Parkinsons. I also had an uncle who was severely physically and mentally disabled for many decades. He luckily eventually died in his 60s last year. I have neighbors who have lived in my neighborhood since the early 80s and they own their own home. They're also healthy and had decent jobs/careers but both of their biological kids are severely to moderately disabled mentally and physically. Both kids are now adults and still live at "home." One is in a wheel chair (their daughter) and she's also severely mentally retarded. I know that's not the word people use anymroe but I also have serioius health issues and I can't remember the right word plus I was also a special ed student. Her brother is moderately disabled and is usually seen with his parents. Life is always an imposition and as I said earlier, there's never a gaurantee that our kids will like their lives plus death is inevitable and we never know how their deaths will be. This should be enough to keep us from having any bio children or having more* bio kids if we already made the mistake of having them.
@Fictional_Name I completely agree with you but some peoples lives that that are very bad, were bad since birth and they never or rarely had good moments when their live was worth living. You mentioned some people with terrible lives had lives that were worth having at some point but that is not true for everyone. I had an uncle who was born with a disorder or condition that bad and it got worse over time. His life was all or (mostly) not worth having. He was severely physically and mentally disabled and had to live in some "home" or whatever it was for decades until he died last year finally. I DO for sure agree with you with everything else. I do (truly) mean my comment with real respect.
@@itsjustme8554 I'm hesitant to accept people can know that life isn't worth living until they have experience with it. Children are very moldable and carefree. If you're born into hellish conditions, the child will adapt to it. We know the brain is physically altered when children are abused or go through some trauma. It's not obvious to me that they experience suffering the same way a non-trauma inflicted person would. It's just the normal for them. Maybe people can become numb to suffering and as weird as it sounds find life worth living that way. There sure are a lot of disabled people whose lives I would consider not worth living, but when you ask them, they tell you it very much is, they don't mind it. So I'm generally against the notion that we can tell other people what's "worth living" from any direction. You need experience with life. And our experience is shaped by who we are. Since we don't know who the unborn people are / will become, that's why I don't think we can comment on the status of their life's worth.
easiest way to resolve the non-identity problem is to simply reject that that people wouldn't mind being born in a hellscape / with immense suffering. The only reason our intuition says they would choose to live, is because the people who don't think life is worth living, obviously aren't around to tell us that. And secondly, most people whose life aren't worth living currently, WAS worth living at some point. And so those life experiences are what keep them from saying no. But obviously the kind of people we're considering in our hypotheticals, must have lives not worth living from birth. And we simply don't have enough experience with those kinds of people to draw reliably conclusions from our intuitions. One must never forget that suicide one of the leading causes of death for a reason. Because life just isn't worth living as often as we think it is.
Not sure if this is completely accurate. I am glad to be alive now despite existing in a time where climate change poses an existential threat to our future and natural disasters are becoming much worse, forest fires are too etc. If 50 years ago the US and other nations embarked on a more ambitious climate plan which didn't lead to the situation we find ourselves in, I certainly would not exist (neither would you unless you're older than 50). I think it's true that if things got bad enough people would no longer want to live in a hellscape, but in that case this doesn't pertain to the non identity problem because the problem stipulates cases in which the individuals in question have lives that are still worth living. So I don't think that really solves the non identity problem
@@oliverniehaus7159 if you genuinely think the freaking abstract fear of climate change, is remotely comparable to the things people experience that actually lead them to suicide, I don't know how we can have a conversation. It's like comparing watching a video of a 4 hour torture proceeding and actually living it.
My point was we have no authority to say if someone else's life is worth living. Worth and value are entirely subjective to each individual. It cannot be ascribed by us like the non identity problem suggests.
@@oliverniehaus7159 Just because YOUR life is okay or great from your perspective, does not gaurentee that your child's life is going to be good or great. It's always a gamble to bring someone new into this existence although the one of the few things thats gauranteed that's bad is dying. We dont know how we'll die. Some people die slowly and in great pain like my dad did last month from cancer and Parkinsons. I also had an uncle who was severely physically and mentally disabled for many decades.
He luckily eventually died in his 60s last year. I have neighbors who have lived in my neighborhood since the early 80s and they own their own home. They're also healthy and had decent jobs/careers but both of their biological kids are severely to moderately disabled mentally and physically. Both kids are now adults and still live at "home."
One is in a wheel chair (their daughter) and she's also severely mentally retarded. I know that's not the word people use anymroe but I also have serioius health issues and I can't remember the right word plus I was also a special ed student. Her brother is moderately disabled and is usually seen with his parents.
Life is always an imposition and as I said earlier, there's never a gaurantee that our kids will like their lives plus death is inevitable and we never know how their deaths will be. This should be enough to keep us from having any bio children or having more* bio kids if we already made the mistake of having them.
@Fictional_Name I completely agree with you but some peoples lives that that are very bad, were bad since birth and they never or rarely had good moments when their live was worth living. You mentioned some people with terrible lives had lives that were worth having at some point but that is not true for everyone. I had an uncle who was born with a disorder or condition that bad and it got worse over time. His life was all or (mostly) not worth having. He was severely physically and mentally disabled and had to live in some "home" or whatever it was for decades until he died last year finally. I DO for sure agree with you with everything else. I do (truly) mean my comment with real respect.
@@itsjustme8554 I'm hesitant to accept people can know that life isn't worth living until they have experience with it. Children are very moldable and carefree. If you're born into hellish conditions, the child will adapt to it. We know the brain is physically altered when children are abused or go through some trauma. It's not obvious to me that they experience suffering the same way a non-trauma inflicted person would. It's just the normal for them. Maybe people can become numb to suffering and as weird as it sounds find life worth living that way.
There sure are a lot of disabled people whose lives I would consider not worth living, but when you ask them, they tell you it very much is, they don't mind it. So I'm generally against the notion that we can tell other people what's "worth living" from any direction. You need experience with life. And our experience is shaped by who we are. Since we don't know who the unborn people are / will become, that's why I don't think we can comment on the status of their life's worth.
8:45 repugnant conclusion
*parfit is just saying that bc hes dead. were he alive again: hed think differently.* & we'd have to kxll him as a result. _JC