Its crazy hw much better we'd have to make these skills to be as Good as shout. Stance would need to increase allies base damage aby 25% and immune to small attacks.
I dont understand why infiltrate has a 40s cooldown (which can be extended to almost a minute btw) but shroudfield has like a 20s cooldown. Shroudfield gives you 50 tons of damage and zealot has like 3 fucking talent nodes for increasing cooldown. Vet has one.
@@MisterEtideI’m not sure what they would do for a buff for it but id like the night vision goggle effect when it’s active to actually work being able to remove all darkness maybe even fog would be cool
There is no argument there, shroudfield is far better than infiltrate. The thing should be 30 seconds without double charge and with a 20 to 30% of daage aftrer using it included in the base ability. I think
Honestly the melee immunity alone would go a long way to make ES more viable, as the way it is rn it basically punishes you for having situational awareness, as soon as you have to stop hard scoping and shooting its over, which is like basically all the time because of how heavy the game is with cqc, melee, mobility, and horde/specialist (especially disablers) management. On a side note marksman’s focus also has a similar problem, why it loses stacks with movement is beyond me
shout is especially spoiled cause it has much easier access to the grenade talents, and since it's middle tree it also has a slightly easier time reaching things like iron will or branching off to pick up precision strikes
make every refresh count as an ability activation. EZ reason being, youve got a decent number of nodes on veteran that proc on ability activation, and letting executioners stance easily maintain 100% uptime on them would allow it to have some more utility depending on which of those nodes you decide to take
that would actually make the 3 on-use talents really nice. it's hard to use them as they have differing durations from the active itself (5, 10 or 15s?), which is also impossible to upkeep constantly. That could be a nice niche for executioners stance, albeit gimmicky
Agree. Shout feels so much better than Chorus. I hate when games make mechanics feel terrible in order to balance them. Accidentally cancelling Chorus shouldn't be a thing. You should only cancel by hitting switch weapons, or after 2 pulses.
The 'never nerf anything ever' crowd is so annoying. If you limit balancing to only ever go in one direction, you'll have a neverending powercreep, as one of your buffs will always go a bit too far and now everything else needs to be buffed again. Sure, nerf stuff carefully and I'll rather see consecutive smaller nerfs as to not undershoot the balance target. I'd say a good first step is, remove the gold toughness from shout (still give toughness over the max cap just not gold), otherwise keep it as it is (and perhaps add 10s to the cooldown). It'll arguably still be the best ability in the game, even after that pretty big nerf.
honestly completely agree krubers merc shout would be pretty much exactly the same, maybe replace the gold toughness buff with instead a damage reduction buff to mirror it as merc shout was solid A tier in vermintide meta
I wouldn't want to actually change the way it feels. Make it cost more. "Duty and Honor" adds 10-15 sec cool down and the gold Toughness only lasts 1/3 less time. "Only in death..." should be usable. No change to ability radius, Add 15 seconds cooldown only if an ally is revived this way. Make it so it is actually an option to play WITHOUT "Duty and Honor" or to play WITH "Only in Death..." (or to use both)
4 sure, lots of stuff needs to be nerfed, the hard difficulties should be hard, and OP weapons and ultimates shouldnt just trivilize the content. Voice, book, Dueling sword, Plasma gun all need to be nerfed imo.
Because it’s ruined so many things in games! Umm hello halberd - vermintide 2. Meta is fine for the average player. The rest of us challenge our play styles with non-meta setups. My vote is to either buff or augment the other abilities.
We know what that causes. Helldivers 2 went from having 10 difficulty levels to having roughly 4. I would take a brand new, level 1 player to a difficulty 7 with no hesitation.
This is an excellent and well put together video and very well explains the issues with the "buff everything" stance. You also propose a very measured set of changes which i appreciate. Thanks for spending the effort.
I have seen other games fall victim to similar player demands, and i really want darktide to avoid that fate. I like doing this sort of video because it gets people to think about balance and the work that goes into it. Thanks for your kind words!
As much as Exe stance could use a buff it just makes Ogryn's gunlugger even more outclassed since gunlugger Ogryn already feels like a squishier vet with worse melee and worse ammo economy.
The people that want insta reload on exec don't consider why they gave it to Ogryn instead, with his really subpar ranged arsenal and 80s cd ability. If they give insta reload on a 25s abiliy, gunlugger is gonna be straight up pointless.
@karurosun Ogryn is already essentially pointless so it wouldn't really change much. Big man needs big buffs across the board to have a presence in the meta to begin with
I think Executioners Stance should have 50% ranged damage increase, Toughness damage resistance by 25% and automatically reloads your weapon on activation. These would make the executioners stance users get into the thick of it to take out elites and gunners. It would make the ult powerful and damage resistance will ease up gunner pressure and improve survival. Also being able to mag dump the bolter onto a boss and then pressing ult fire an instant 2nd volley of more powerful shots to finish them off sounds sick
@@ffs-forfunsake6474 powerful enough for it to be on par with voice of command. I personally love it. But it definitely needs an increase in some kind of way as far as advantages neither ult has. When the game launched the ult could be configured that you take less ranged damage while in the stance, same with the automatic reload on activation. Right now it’s just decreased spread, marked enemies and more damage. Amazing for DPS but offers little gameplay variety and takes away from survivability that’s needed on higher levels, which is why the shout is a top pick
@@KingKhalid888 iirc there is a build builder on darktide site, I can post it there. In a sum you take all damage on the left branch (plus cornerstone) and damage to ogryns/monsters in a center one. On a hellbore crit chance stacking while aiming on weapon and skill tree, and faster chain powershots on weapon. It's recoil makes it easier to chain weakspot crit shots relatively to bolter but you'll need to accumulate stacks by siting in place. Also default powered lasgun could make massive damage with + 90% damage to weakspot critshots and higher crit chance for consecutive weakspot shots. There is a streetAllSweeper machinegun build that wins from this ult but It takes a little to much time on carapace and monsters.
I like shout because it’s cinematic. “Get in there, make them scream!” While Light of the imperium or The gauntlet blares. Facing down a near endless hoard. To me that is what warhammer is about.
It would be cool if infiltrate caused a smoke bomb effect a d they just gave vet like some other nade type. Cluster, trip mines, regular nades with bigger effect than shredders, flashbangs that make enemies attack each other or something temporarily while flashed. Heck you could even give him something besides a throwable like a special gun or sniper.
Running between 15-20, I found a surprising amount of executioner vets (not 0) Not a single stealth vet or zealot. But those vets usually did pull their weight. Also, gimme reload on execution
@@leblurg4997 I think ExStance gets played quite a bit because it is fun, not because it is good. It is a minigame. Also long-term players remember when it was the only vet ability.
I still think the pick rate won't change even if you nerf VOC, as you say it will still be incredibly powerful and straight up just the best Veteran ability by a mile (both in terms of utility and point investment efficency). Unless you nerf it down to borderline unusable trash tier There needs to be something else on the other two abilitys that will make me pick it over VOC if im gonna have so much talent point tax
1:52 Slight correction: Scrier's Gaze has a shorter base cooldown at 25 seconds. 30 seconds is also shared with Fury of the Faithful, Infiltrate, and Venting Shriek, as an addition. Edit: I had a similar thought a while back, my thinking was specifically to maybe drop the duration of Duty and Honour to 10 seconds at first, maybe drop the golden toughness overcap to +30 or something, as a start, then see whether more nerfs are needed. This kind of approach is what I'd like to see in this situation, because the vibe and function of the ability is great, it's just too strong, so tuning down the numbers somewhat should be able to fix the issue. This is exactly the kind of thing that should be easy to do incrementally, to gauge the changes and land in the correct spot.
A lot of ppl want instant reload back, and that’s okay, but I agree with the idea a stacking reload speed buff while inability would be better. It incentivizes staying in the ability for as long as possible while maximizing uptime. Nothing is worse than having a long reload and losing your ability Wouldn’t make the skill “better” or replace shout but it would be a nice QoL for the rare time I use it
I hope someday Shout is associated as Veteran Support Build, rather than being the start and end to the character. I said this on the last video, but the only way to balance gold toughness, is to sprinkle it everywhere else in talent trees so that every character can give themselves gold toughness through skillful play. It would also immediately ramp up build variety by pushing players to go down these never-picked branches. With more access to the safety net, Veterans can finally move off of Shout into offense without trolling the team.
Here’s my suggestion for an Executioner Stance buff, give it the Survivalist 1% max ammo generation on highlighted targets (chaff shooters exempt), but disable the 5s cooldown and localize it to just the Veteran. Another would be to add a node that grants bonus suppression and disables move speed/moving spread penalties while hipfiring to enable an aggressive, mobile playstyle.
the issue isn't just the abilities themself, it's loads of things. The single most picked node in vet literally leads into it so it's always the most efficient pathing, the pathing into both other abilities is more expensive and has worse nodes. Most darktide players are also not very good at the game, having a free get out of jail card is going to appeal to them a lot more, you see this with calls to buff ES despite it being perfect as is. Shout should be nerfed, infiltrate should have its ability cooldown reduced to 30s and we're good. Outside of that what needs to change is the pathing. Making the other abilities as strong as shout would be moronic and awful awful awful for the game. Move demolition stockpile to the node above all of the grenades then adjust some of the other surrounding nodes and everything will be fine.
I can definitely see them trying to shuffle around the best talents so that they're above and below the other two abilities instead. But players would cry "Talent Tax" and not acknowledge why the change was made.
VoC is not only powerful because of what it does but also because of how easy it is to use effectively. While other abilities require a player to do something to get value out of them, VoC just gives a player it's full value when you press a button.
Executioner Stance needs to add Survivability. The other 2 abilities act as oh crap! Buttons to bail you out of trouble when you lose all your toughness. Especially for newer players or players moving up in difficulty. They feel they need Shout to survive. The First activation should at least give half toughness and some on renewal. Maybe also one second invisibility or invulnerability so they can reposition on first activation.
I know it's not the bestest way ever to play but I have always enjoyed playing executioner's with the revolver and highlighting the enemies for teammates too. It felt like the best way to support teammates by giving them information on the enemies and made it easier for me to pick off enemies through crowds because of the pierce the revolver has. It was my favorite even before skill trees but I've used it less and less as they've updated the game. I know a little bump to executioner's would make it a bit more fun to do again but who knows when that will happen.
another consideration to put bring shout down a notch is to just decrease the amount of golden toughness you get. having even just 1 point of it significantly increases your survivability. bringing the amount of golden toughness you get down would still allow you to make use of how strong it is if you're careful while dialing it back since you won't have as much room for error while you have it.
Honestly, even with the super variants i still think shout would still be something like 50-60% usage, simply because of both placement of the talent tree and its something you can slap onto any build and it will objectively benefit from it with it only being a 2 point investment. Shout just needs a cd nerf and a duration nerf, a shroudfeild cd buff and almost a full rework of the right side, and exe i think could maybe receive either qol or direct buffs, like maybe whenever you shoot a marked target the duration pauses and then it resets upon a kill (to inceivize the bigger the are... for more things than the plasma) . I think some changes along these lines would be healthier for the game overall
before watching video. Executioner's stance: Give the Veteren some insane buff on headshot dmg that allows them to one hit non-boss enemies and do critical ammounts of dmg to bosses Infiltrate: Pair with smoke bomb change. Drops two smoke bombs to the left and right of you enemies shooting through smoke bombs shots at allies or the veteren are treated as hitting gold toughness; and enemies do bonus dmg to their horde/elite/specialist allies within the Veterens smoke. Melee enemies will wildly swing at the closest target regardless of if they are friendly or foe. Vet still goes invis and gets big buffs. After: I personally think infiltrate should just be switched out to a tank build for vet (selfish mega tank) and give them the reactor shield that the boss captains have. and a new smoke bomb
I think shout would be fine with a recharge duration increase to 60 seconds base. It would still reward good timing and smart usage. It would still be subject to CDR options, but it would be much less spammable - which is what makes it so powerful at higher difficulties. It would still be nice to see buffs to executioners and stealth though.
I alternate between using shout and executioner's stance, and I prefer the executioner's stance's buffs because I am usually the person on my team dealing with ranged targets, specialists, etc and executioner makes that the easiest especially because I use plasma gun. From my experience though, the mark target capstone path is extremely high value. It has the perk to reduce your ability cooldowns, 5% grenade restore, rending on all weapons with no requirements, and a big damage spiking ability in the capstone itself, and gaining access to the those using the other abilities is a massive point tax. I use boltguns and plasma guns for my executioner's stance, and to be honest marksman's focus just doesn't pair as well with them as focus target, but I have to pay more points to branch into that. I don't like to use infiltrate because it feels selfish and any time I am stealthed Im not killing, nor do I like weapon specialist but that is just a me thing. However, you did miss that infiltrate fully restores veteran toughness, can have two charges, and grants a reduced threat and damage spike if you spend the points for it, so I think the super infiltrate is a poor example. I don't agree with the never nerf always buff, but I am always more hesitant to nerf because of how often a nerf gets applied that doesn't actually address the problem. I do believe that there does have to be a set standard of "good" where you buff and nerf to match that line appropriately.
Mate, VoC is awesome just because of the shout itself: hearing "Hammer of ze Emperor!" or "Rally in formation RIGHT FRAGGING NOW" and seeing enemies around you getting knocked away is just too cool!) As for the subject of discussion, Exec Stance should just reload your gun instantly. This is really it. It would make it at the same power level as VoC, minus the awesome factor (FS really need to record new voicelines for Stance to compete with VoC). Outlines do nothing (okay it were good training wheels). 25% damage buff is meh compared to either VoC or Infiltrate. Infiltrate btw is very powerful as a "carry ability" - whether it is worth it or not is debatable ofc...
IMO Giving Executioner's 20-50% rending on weakspot hit on ranged weapon alternate fire (M2) would give the precision weapons a good bump while also not buffing bolter dumping or plasma vs armor. Infiltrate could suppress on entering and exiting stealth. a fun node could be "all allies in coherency enter stealth for 8 seconds. Attacking makes them leave stealth. +50% CD" would be a nightmare for pugs but might help the team avoid a troublesome pack of enemies.
I always viewed Shout as the OP meta tank cc ability, Infiltrate as the flanking/saving ability (ensures you can always revive your teammates), and Executioner's Stance as the high skill oriented ability. If you can aim well, you can rival Shout in damage, hell, you'll probably do more damage. The main issue between Executioner's and the other two is survivability. If you're not killing elites/specialists and hitting headshots, you die INCREDIBLY fast. Shout obviously needs to be reworked, since it's not only broken, but also extremely linear in design. Maybe giving Executioner's its old instant reload back and possibly reworking the more useless nodes on the left and right sides of the skill tree would bring some variety to Vet playstyles.
maybe instead of invulnerability from common melee enemies, executioners stance should have insane suppression that has a longer effect on any enemy who can get suppressed
I completely agree that Shout is just too powerful to remain as it does today, but also understand why people don't want it to be like Hell Divers and just nerf everything. The solution that Hell Divers came up was "OK, you'll be OP, but everything is going to be harder." This worked out well for them, but I don't think that FS can do the same thing here. If they nerfed Shout, then buffed the other two, to bring them all in-line, like you suggest, is a great way to go about it. I don't want them to spend the time to completely re-work the game to match the higher ability ceiling, just don't nerf everything so it feesl bad to play. Another part of this discussion I'm having with friends is that Shout can have overlap with other abilities, like the Zealot's book and the Pyker's shield. If I had the other two abilities already on my team, I wouldn't mind having a Vet who just deletes everything with a gun while the others focus on the melee abilities. The Shout build is an excellent team build when playing with randos, but if you can coordinate with your team, you most likely don't need to bring all of these abilities, maybe just Shout and the Book? I'm not sure if this part is making sense!
shout is a universal "F*%^ OFF" button, its hard to beat, but all executioners stance just needs team wide bottomless mag/free ammo use and increased firerate
i still think shout would be the most meta, but id for sure think more people roughly a third or so would pick executioners stance, and then like 10-30% would take the infiltrate
Last i used executioners is purely as a way to gain information for the team. Imo. Buff duration to 10-15s, and grant instant reload on kills of priority targets. Also gun is auto reloaded upon activation
I think super Inflitrate would be the most picked because killing 5 specialists in 10 seconds isn't hard when no enemy is targetting you and it completerly negate the vulnerability of stealth builds.
My idea for making exe.stance somewhat comprable to shout would be: 60% toughness on activation, instant reload of ranged weapon on first chained-activation and highlighting ranged enemies as basekit of the node on top of everything it does to damage right now. The additional nodes would add the highlights to the team but make it refresh when a highlighted enemy dies EVEN by teammates and another node is to highlight ogryns and bosses without removing regular highlights. The most broken bit about this would be the instant reload. Infiltrate would need to allow you to shoot in stealth for 6seconds but extend the duration for 2 or 3sec for a crit headshot kill.
I think a way you can look at abilities and their pick rates is “how much this ability gives me x how much effort it takes to use” Infiltrate is the worst of the three: it gives you a worse stealth (compared to Shroudfield), on a long cooldown, and then you gotta figure out what to do with it (abstract cost, but still a cost on your brain). Low reward, lots of effort. Executioner’s requires you to be a good shot and aim well, but the benefits are nice. Still, on an overall basis, you need to be consistently clicking heads, which gets progressively harder at higher levels. High effort, “good” reward. Shout is a click it once and it gives you your shit. And the shit it gives is absurdly good. Low effort, very high reward. People are drawn to the thing that gives them the most benefit when you put in the least effort necessary, especially at higher and higher difficulties. Maybe the solution might be to make Shout more intensive, maybe by needing to hold the button and put away your weapons for a few moments before it goes off? That would make you think a little more about your timing, and it’d make it an interesting tradeoff: do I charge the shout for the bigger reward while I’m getting mauled, or do I give out a quick shout just to get stuff off of me?
Could you do a video on the Ogryn’s “Coward Culling” suppression aura? I can’t quite tell if it’s ever worth putting a point into on weapons like the Rumbler or the Grenadier when it seems like aura specifically built for the mini guns.
There is also one big, fat problem, which ruined all builds that run around "proper" grenade pick - the nodes composition. The grade of going down the line is an absolute trash. The very first one iteration of perks picking was though very limited back in time, but solid. Just give thirty points, and perks to choose to be filled: one of the keystone, ult and blitz to pick, and rest of the points to be dumped into stat nodes and perks.
I think exec should have some amount of suppression or stagger bonus for your ranged weapon, and having the instant reload come back in some form or fashion. Perhaps give it some ranged damage resistance too? I'd suggest giving infiltrate a sort of "emergency retreat" node, like the zealot ability to not die once every however many minutes, you are about to die so instead you get one charge used to save you but you are left with like 25% of your health and an increased cooldown for that spent charge. Otherwise I'd integrate the lowered enemy priority into the ability by default but cut it down to 5 seconds instead of 10.
@@MisterEtide and with psykinetic aura and seer’s presence you can basically have unlimited uptime on that ability. Don’t even get me started on the countless talents thats able to trigger too. If executioners stance/infiltrate had the same talent synergy as something like scriers gaze after bringing down shout a bit I think that would make it perfect. Many of the talents in the other trees for vet just are not good
The issue with VoC has always been the piss toughness; it'd be strong enough if it was just a simple temporary increase to your base toughness, but it also being able to act as a pseudo-Until Death against anything that would have otherwise downed or killed you outright is ridiculous. Remove the damage resistance property from piss toughness, and even then VoC and Infiltrate should have their cooldown times swapped since just because it wouldn't make you near-invulnerable anymore doesn't mean it wouldn't still be amazing.
terrible idea. We've had this before and have seen the result which was not good. Also the plasma never needs to reload this would do literally nothing for that weapon since heat mechanic replaces its effective reload.
I would pick Super Infiltrate personally (when I'm not taking shout) because I love super fast knife stealth zealot and I think having a god-tier stealth vet ability would make for some interesting strategic plays and utility.
Make Infiltrate 15s long, keep the 45s CD, and let the ability cool down while active. You can 'shoot from stealth', but it breaks it for just under a second; like 3/4ths of a second, and you re-enter stealth after that timespan if you don't attack again. Can potentially change one of the additional talents to allow duration extension through special kills or some such. Executioner's should highlight things for allies by default; shouldn't need an extra node for something that feels like it should be a baseline. I think melee protection vs. non-elites would be hella strong, so maybe more like a huge damage-reduction percentage instead. And then a node to extend a portion of that damage reduction to allies.
For shout nerfs id say first make it a 60s cool down. More nerfs include removing golder toughness or causing the golden talent to remove or weaken the stun of voc. Infiltrate should let you attack with melee or ranged for about 5 to 10 seconds but with no damage buff. Reload speed on exe would be very nice, mabe even having its damge stack up per elite kill.
I think shout would still be better by a significant margin, to bring it both into balance and make it not so much of a near-invulnerability button I would replace the gold toughness with a full toughness replenish for all allies in coherency, and possibly buff toughness replenishment (from all sources) for teammates if that would be too weak. I find executioner's stance very fun, the melee protection sounds like a step in the right direction but sounds too unengaging when the gameplay often revolves around alternating between ranged and melee at higher difficulties. Instead I would make the remaining duration of the stance expire at half the speed while a melee weapon is equipped so that you don't have to completely sacrifice stance in order to defend yourself from melee enemies for a few seconds. Just my two cents, it probably needs a little more improving than that, especially to be viable in auric maelstrom or havoc. I like your change to infiltrate, although I've hardly used it, so I couldn't say whether that improves on its issues. I do like the idea of making it more similar to huntsman/ranger ults from VT2 in any case.
Shout Feels good to use. It is instantaneous and predictable. Compare it to Chorus which has a similar effect. But it isn't instantaneous, you can get knocked off of it, it just doesn't feel as good. If you Nerf Shout, don't make it feel worse, don't introduce an activation delay.
I ran executioners stance in lvl 19 havoc and really enjoyed it. Being able to see and kill all the ranged enemies is super valuable since they're pretty much the only dangerous enemy if you have a good team comp. Don't feel brave enough to try it in 20s or higher tho lol
Before finishing the video even with the imaginary buffs shout would absolutely remain top dog purely on ease of use alone. You press the button and you get to keep blasting/slashing. No need to build around the ability because it doesn’t need anything extra to do its job. It’s perfect for turning your brain off and still being useful. The other two still require you to lean more heavily into them. Shout doesn’t interrupt your cadence as much as the other two, especially executioners.
watch watch. I'm going to most like offend alot of people. but its worth it trust me. can't make an omlette without breaking a few egg heads. Executioner's stance gives perfect auto aim -OR Instant reload and for its duration ammo is drained from your reserve THEN your current magazine -OR extremely controversially unlimited ammo for its duration with maybe shots fired leaving a Golden Trail. (Big E wants you to win so badly hes literally putting the bullets directly into your gun.) Once I learrned the shout can revive teammates. INCLUDING those you can't physically reach (a pysker head popped after all 3 of us jumped down, i shouted to revive him but the poor sod was so embrassed it happened at the start of a mission he left) (a teammate got trapped...embarrassing but it happens, but it was mid-wave. only thing i could do was wait until he got downed then roar at him to get back up while dodging everything) (the rare few times i go down i DO see teammates picking me up over everyone else because they know i'll get them back up good and proper. 😊 ) thus it became my go to ability and its never leaving unless the other two become just as grossly useful. the stealth? really not my cup of tea, in a manner of speaking its a bit selfish. granted it has uses for sure. i just don't see myself using it. I'd much rather roar loud enough to knock back a charging super mutant or knock an ogyrn off his feet. lol
This is a good start, but Veteran builds are homogenized in more than just combat abilities. Grenades and auras should offer enticing options with distinct strengths, but right now that is NOT the case.
Possibly hot take: trade the gold toughness talent from Veteran shout with the 25% damage boost talent from Ogryn. This would instantly make Ogryn WAY more viable in high difficulties as the true team lynchpin tank power fantasy. And pressing a button to get a free knockdown and 25% damage boost to absolutely mangle a crowd or melt a boss isn't really something veteran could complain about...
I'm all in for nerfing shout but it has to be done bit by bit with data collection and assessment between each bit. I think a good first step would be to double its cooldown so simply spamming it every time it's available is less effective a tactic. Looking at the bigger picture, I think this type of balance issue is inherent to the class system fatshark decided to go for. Now Veteran has the ability to pick all the best damage node and weapons and still have amazing survivability and team utility thanks to shout. Just break the class into a sergeant, a shooter and a scout and balance those three classes, their passives and their available weapons and you'll create way more playstyle options that are easier to balance
I still think even if you tried buffing the other abilities, I don't think they would be close in usage with one another it'd probably be shout with 80%+ usage. The fact that it creates breathing room when shit gets bad and gives toughness is enough to have people not switch. The only thing I can see them doing is nerfing the cooldown by 15+ seconds to stop shout spam since it's really easy to refresh when specialists are everywhere (especially in more difficult content), not even accounting for other classes cd reduction nodes or curios. Another thing is moving some nodes around because there's a lot of enticing nodes that lead to shout as well. The fact that's shout does two of the most impactful things of giving toughness immediately (let alone overcapping it which completely negates health damage), and making space while canceling enemy attacks is going to be unbeatable. The only way I can even see people switching is that the other abilities are overtuned in damage or utility, which even with the buffs you gave for ES and Infiltrate are not good enough to have people even consider switching. I think what would make the other abilities better is having something that's a bit more active rather than passive (or both), but even then, the only thing that would be is some sort of CC.
The game has already suffered from such immense power creep with the talent tree rework that the only way to introduce difficulty in the game is to have 40+ special/elite spawns per minute, having gunners effectively oneshot you while also covering the entire map in goo/fire/gas and spawning multiple bosses on top. Compare the time to kill for a horde of crushers and ragers to a Vermintide 2 chaos patrol.
its that Vermintide 2 situation all over again. why would you ever pick Huntsman when you can pick any other career and get insane crowd control and hp. you sacrifice all survivability for huge damage. it really needs buffed but I will never complain when I see a exec stance vet clear out a room of gunners.
Shout is simply too strong. Trying to balance around it would just result in Vet's abilities _all_ being dramatically better than the other classes' and that's not good balance. So I'd remove the knockdown and leave the powerful team-support stuff. That might be closer to the average class ability effectiveness. As for Executioner's there are a lot of ways to take it: A. the stat buffs in this vid B. other stat buffs (I think having dramatically higher uptime, so your Vet is near-perma Specialist-RADAR for the team would be a good candidate) C. another version might turn it into more of a game: kills earn Lethality stack(s), more stacks earned from larger enemies, and activating Executioner's gives you 1% dmg and 1% weakpoint per stack (max 120). This resets your stacks to 20 (the minimum), and you're immediately able to build stacks with kills made during the Ability. ALL of these versions would benefit from (1) increasing the innate zoom provided by Marksman's, and (2) letting you tap the Ability again during the ability to toggle zoom distance between normal and Marksman-Super-Zoom Infiltrate shouldn't become too similar to Zealot stealth, so I think Zealot's stealth should be about big chonky backstabs, and Veteran is more defensive: so a dramatically lower cooldown (45->20s), slightly lower duration (8s->6s), and attacking doesn't break stealth. (It's defensive because it's a get out of jail free card you can play all the time, and also the subtalents that directly improve survivability would remain as-is).
I love executioner’s stance but it requires a much more intelligent player to make use of it in my opinion. It’s great especially on plasma gun and bolt gun but shout is just brain dead easy to use and provides you survivability outside of killing which is makes it an instant pick pretty much
Though I feel that the super infiltrate will be greatly favored in the same way shroudfield is rn (able to do objectives and res for free). Voice would prob still be meta pick even then just due to how fast and easy it is to use. Plus it benefits the team directly. I do wish they buffed ES, it's also my fave vet skill.
The problem is if they buff executioner, its a fine line where it will just delete everything in the game. Maybe just give it a bit more survivability, im still relatively new to dt so i couldn't say.
I remember pre skill tree where low-profile is passive skill (just stand still). What if just put that as Executioner's stance and doesn't cancel skill out on swapping weapon? (losing skill because swapping to melee or throwing bomb because unexpected situation is a bit punishing)
Krubers mercenary ability from vermintide is similar, but weaker and has much longer cooldown and its still one of best abilities. For starters I would just double the cooldown of shout to 60 secs.
Even if you nerf shout, exe and infiltrate don't solve vet's toughness problem and that's a big factor for why they still would have a lower pick rate. I know vet has toughness gen talents, but hear me out. Confirmed kill ONLY pumps out toughness when you are focusing down high value targets, and out for blood is the opposite where it doesn't really do a lot unless you mow down a lot of trash. Picking both is a pretty big concession because vet is starved for talent points. On your toes is pretty nice, but it has gaps in situations where you want to camp your melee or gun, and literally all of these talents only do anything to begin with if it's you getting the kills. Using shout fills in the gaps that any of these talents leave behind, whereas exe has no toughness gen at all, and infiltrate has long cooldowns that make it unreliable. Compare this to zealot and psyker. Zealot gets toughness on ALL of his abilities that also get a short cooldown just for landing a few crits, and the toughness on dodge talent is super universal and easy to get value out of, too. And I have no idea why anyone thinks psyker is frail, because it's constantly farting out more toughness for just existing and landing crits, ESPECIALLY gun psyker with its stupidly high crit chance and scriers gaze giving back 75% of your toughness for a single key press.
"Super infiltrate" and "super Executioners" if that is the name choice for a buff for those skills, then id rather not see them buffed. I like relentless ambush and sly marbo incarnate as new skill names! XD
People who dont want nerfs in a pve game dont understand game balance. If everything is op the game becomes a boring cakewalk. If you want that go play a kids game The high difficulties need to be hard and if they are balanced around the one op ability that bottlenecks builds, and its easier to nerf one thing to bring it down to the norm that to buff eveything else
Executionner's stance is my favorite now, I have hundreds of hours playing this ult alone, and I really think that (balance wise) it's not that far to being ok, so yeah I confirm the 5% vet percentage, it's credible to my pov too. I would say 10 to 15% infiltrate though is closer to the truth, because there is one or two argument to be made with infiltrate that shout don't cover, even if shout is absolutly worth investing one more perk point to get it instead of infiltrate. For your 2 buff, Infiltrate. Man, 10 seconds free firing, when you can recover cooldown while killing, seems too busted with a 30 seconds cooldown. Give a damage bonus and less infiltration while firing (like 3 to 5 sec) it woulld be cool Exec strance. The damage boost arent essential for me (Breakpoint wise, it's overkill I think), I xould take +10% critical strangely, because it would be an incentive to play Marksmùan Focus more (crit = finesse damage afterall) I absolutely agree to more reload speed and some kind of protection against lesser ennemies. Maybe, MAYBE, something about free shot (no ammo consumed) while your ult is active ? For the 'reasonable' shout - 35sec (to 40) cooldown - Do not stack after 50 gold toughness - last only 10 seconds + The improvment that make you revive allies do not decrease the range of the shout or/and the cooldown of the shout But tbh man, if we talk of global character balancing, the Psyker is seriously the one to look at first, by far, not vet and his shout.
I be fine with having longer cooldown in exchange for unlimited ammo for the whole duration. This is a dumb a suggestion but what if u make it like the kingpin perk deck in payday 2 U get agro from all the enemies, u take 75% less damage and u get heals in exchange for kills
Executioner's stance as it is now will never be as good as shout simply because its an ability that relies on you having ammo, not having ammo causes executioner's stance and barrage to fall right off a cliff and survivalist doesn't help them because of the 5 second limit, if executioner's could get its own instance of survivalist that affects only the ability user with no cooldown whatsoever while the ability is active, then it would greatly help with increasing its usability in higher difficulties where enemies all become spongier and ammo usage comes at a premium. All that and it would help it's build diversity if all the ability modifiers that show up down the talent tree would also refresh alongside executioner's, otherwise stuff like For the Emperor will always be dogwater for providing too small a buff for too short a duration for barely any uptime as well as just being a general blueball for not refreshing w/ executioner's.
Not gonna lie i REALLY wanna see a huge balance overhaul for every class soon. 70% of the builds in this game are either redundant or outright terrible, and have been literally for over a year. Havoc has only highlighted this problem further. Ogryn may be a shitcan, but hes just the tip of the iceberg in regards to the horrid character balance in Darktide that Mister E is trying to reveal here.
Gold toughness needs to not over rule the usual toughness over riding mechanics, like snipers or pox bursters. Getting extra toughness that protects health damage from things normal toughness protects you from, until it gets reduced below your usual 100 pct toughness... seems fine enough, but when it over rides snipers??? Too much.
I literally tried this today because I'm trying to get 20 mastery on all the weapons, and I'm on the hellbore. I can clear auric damnation fairly consistent with stealth vet. However, I'm struggling in regular damnation with this build.
what if all enemies highlighted by ex stance receive 25% more damage from the whole team? or another node for all highlighted enemies dealing less damage to the team.
is there a buff ogryn video out there? Easiest way to make Ogryns viable is to give them immunity to disablers. just that change alone would make them way more viable. Some small dog or man-sized net shouldn't be able to stop an Ogryn, really.
the hill I will die on, the issue with vets other ultimates isn't VoC, it's the rest of the talent tree and pathing. you just lose out on points. he has 2 awful blitzes only 1 good aura which is the same place as his only good blitz. a lot of the nodes outside of his optimal build path aren't very good. it's not the existence of VoC but the rest of the talent tree.
I don't want to say "skill issue", but the difference between a player who understands dodging attacks and general movement tech over a bad or inexperienced player is a much more tangible difference to me than some changes you might make to special abilities. I'd rather have a sub-optimal competent player than a poor player who's running "the best build", whatever that happens to be.
@@MisterEtide I get that. I run with a vermintide player with over 1k hours in that game. He's still sour about what they did to Slayer and he's very hesitant to green-light any nerfs. He doesn't like the idea of high-skill players walking the devs towards nerfing things. Not that it'd be yours or any individual player's fault what decision the devs end up making, but your part of the communities' voice for sure. I can see them nerfing shout because (as you noted) it's getting picked a lot more than the other options because of the utility and I'm sure the devs can see that in the game's stats. I hope whatever nerfing does hit the veteran's shout still leaves it with the utility to be a good teamplay ability. Preferably a cooldown nerf or golden toughness time nerf (maybe drop it from 15 seconds to 10 seconds).
Urgh I hate the "buff everything" mindset. I HATE that Helldivers caved to the crying babies and gutted all the teamplay to make their game worse with no chance of fixing it because it'll just make the babies, I don't want to do any teamwork I want to run off and be solo but super OP and if I fail I want a team to blame because it's never my fault, cry again (Hi Knife and Dueling sword players who sprint off, die, flame and leave, both those weapons need a bit of a nerf). Edit: 10% super infiltrate, 70% shout, 20% super executioners.
An important factor why you see shout so often, even on lower difficulties, is because it fulfills the main class fantasy of the veteran. At launch, many people were somewhat dissatisfied with how the veteran's role was only being a sharpshooter, when they had pictured the veteran more as an inspirational figure, a commissioned officer, a commissar, a grizzled sergeant, leading from the front, buffing their teammates and doling out medium-to-close range ranged damage, but having the ability to switch to melee. I think the shout and the middle tree is more in-line what people expected from the veteran and want out of the veteran, rather than an infiltrator or a sharpshooter.
I hope never to see infiltrate on my team. I would rather see shroudfield, at least it gives huge damage hits. And shroudfield at least promotes being invis for very short periods of time. You know when you see infiltrate, that they are going to make your life harder. They might do objectives for you, which is nice, but that is it. If it made the whole team invis, I would be ok with it. Otherwise I think they should rework it to something else.
still think shout should not give gold toughness for such a long time, it should be for an emergency moment and then you manage with normal maxed toughness. from there: - feel executioner's should have a buffed reload speed at least for the fist time, that way you can sustain the fire better but not forever - as for infiltration it should have similar CD to current shout (maybe reduced CD on weak spot hit when breaking invi?), it makes you safer in the engage and disengage, but doesnt help your team as much as the others, so it would be balanced imo (and in that regard, do we even have a weapon/build that fitts the "camo sniper" fantasy?)
I use exec whenever i use single shot or slow ROF weps. trying to make most of its damage. If we were to give it a free reload. That would split me 50/50 with Shout.
There is a theme running in your vids that the duration is never long enough. 5s is not long for a new player. It makes it stressful as you want to chain but youre not good enough. So begginers have to fall back to dependable low skill talents.
Correct, i am firmly in favor of all these short buffs being extended, the teeny tiny length of some of these skills and buffs are laughable when you see the massive 15s buff shout gives
Edit: Simpler answer, to bring Shout in line with current power level. Increase CD to 60 seconds. While Zealots book lasts longer, stops damage, and gives more toughness it DOES need to be channeled so for a quick pop and done it seems on par. I don't think changing its functionality is needed as much as reducing its uptime. That said, increasing the CD does make me think you could then remove the CD penalty from "Only in Death Does Duty End," but leave the reduced radius. Just fun before I see what all you suggest, here's how I would change pretty much every classes abilities in my fantasy land to bring them up to the power of Vet Shout without invalidating Vet Shout. For Executioner's Stance: add a toughness regen mechanic to killing marked enemies in executioners stance as baseline. Say 10% toughness regen and 20% TDR for 10 seconds on marked kill, further kills refresh the duration of the TDR. ES timer pauses on when you reload. Replace "Enhanced Target Priority" with "Turn the Tide," a node that give allies in coherency the same 10% toughness and 20% TDR that you get when you get a marked kill. For Shout, change the knockback to a stagger effect and remove the reduced radius and increased CD penalties from the "Only in Death Does Duty End" node. Make Shout affect allies in Coherency as a baseline (Replenishes toughness for you and allies in coherency) and change "Duty and Honor" to only add the gold toughness effect. For Invis, reduce the cooldown to 30 seconds and bump it up to a 10 second duration. Make the current "Surprise Attack" node baseline. Change "Surprise Attack," to "Linear Ambush," and have it give allies in coherency a 15% damage bonus for 5 seconds after you leave stealth but make it lock out "Overwatch". Remove the CD penalty from "Overwatch." Add a node "Rescue," that makes allies you res while invisible ALSO invisible and prevents you from falling out of stealth while resing an ally (can exceed the max duration). Change "leaving stealth suppresses" to "leaving stealth staggers." Make the "Marksman" and "Close Quarters Killzone" nodes ALSO effect allies in coherency. Have all three ability modifiers take affect on leaving stealth when running infiltrate If these changes were made to vet I'd also want these changes made to the other classes except Ogryn because I haven't played it enough: Change Venting Shriek to emanate in a 9m radius around each ally in coherency (its a psychic scream why not have it echo through your team), rather than just right in front of you to sort of replace the knockdown effect lost by my recommended Vet Shout changes AND increase the team utility of that ability. That buffs the two damage nodes enough it doesn't need anything else. Just move the nodes on it so you can pick any one of the three instead of having to chain through becalming eruption. Psyker's Telekine Dome node should be changed to move with the Psyker rather than just place it on the ground, but reduce its duration to 15 seconds and its radius reduced by 15%. Increase the width and height of the baseline Telekine Shield by 15% and bring the duration up to 20 seconds. Change the "enervating threshold" node to remove the 10% chance to stun chaff, keep the 100% chance to stun big shit, and have it apply 3 stacks of soulblaze to anything that passes through the shield. The TDR from Scriers gaze should apply to all allies in coherency. Zealots invis should be changed to have an 8 second duration with "Master Crafted Shroudfield" and also allow you to pass through enemies. Increase the movement speed bonus to 40%. Remove the CD penalty from "Perfectionist" and buff "Invigorating Revelation" to also grant its bonus to all allies in coherency. For Book Zealot, the "Banishing Light" node should be baseline since you have to take it anyway. Give Zealot a node called "Flames of Perdition" to replace "Banishing Light" attached to the book but not in the same place as banishing light, that reads "Enemies staggered by Choir receive 2 stacks of burning per pulse and 2.5% brittleness per stack of burning applied." Zealots Fury of the Faithful, make it restore full toughness and add 20% rending and 20% cleave to the attack speed bonus. Add a node "Choir of Wrath" that give 50% of the toughness, attack speed, rending, and cleave to allies in coherency but make it lockout "Redoubled Zeal." Like I said I've played the fuck out of Psyker and Zealot but haven't really touched Ogryn so not sure what buffs / changes they could use to bring them in line with these changes but I'm sure they could use some tweaks in my dream land as well.
I just want the instant reload to return for Executioner's Stance.
Its crazy hw much better we'd have to make these skills to be as Good as shout. Stance would need to increase allies base damage aby 25% and immune to small attacks.
bro there was instant reload? why did they even take that away
@@monoditrium145it was a final talent before the skill tree reworks.
Double mag dumping a bolter felt great.
@@CombatMedic1O That would make it even more broken than VoC. 100% uptime 25% more damage and chaff immunity? Shout would be useless then
@@monoditrium145 it invalidated all guns except for the bolter and plasma.
I dont understand why infiltrate has a 40s cooldown (which can be extended to almost a minute btw) but shroudfield has like a 20s cooldown. Shroudfield gives you 50 tons of damage and zealot has like 3 fucking talent nodes for increasing cooldown. Vet has one.
yeah its definitely in need of help. people telling me that it's anywhere near as good as SF are crazy, 45 seconds is an ETERNITY for cooldown
@@MisterEtideI’m not sure what they would do for a buff for it but id like the night vision goggle effect when it’s active to actually work being able to remove all darkness maybe even fog would be cool
Infiltrate has a lot of utility with the suppression, long duration, 2 uses, restore Toughness...
Cooldown is waaay too long though
There is no argument there, shroudfield is far better than infiltrate. The thing should be 30 seconds without double charge and with a 20 to 30% of daage aftrer using it included in the base ability. I think
@imajoker6859 I wouldn't even try using infiltrate if there wasn't a mod to remove the screen effect. It literally makes it harder to see.
Honestly the melee immunity alone would go a long way to make ES more viable, as the way it is rn it basically punishes you for having situational awareness, as soon as you have to stop hard scoping and shooting its over, which is like basically all the time because of how heavy the game is with cqc, melee, mobility, and horde/specialist (especially disablers) management.
On a side note marksman’s focus also has a similar problem, why it loses stacks with movement is beyond me
Mm focus is the subject of an upcoming vid :)
shout is especially spoiled cause it has much easier access to the grenade talents, and since it's middle tree it also has a slightly easier time reaching things like iron will or branching off to pick up precision strikes
So many builds in this game are ruined because the grenades theyre paired with
make every refresh count as an ability activation. EZ
reason being, youve got a decent number of nodes on veteran that proc on ability activation, and letting executioners stance easily maintain 100% uptime on them would allow it to have some more utility depending on which of those nodes you decide to take
that would actually make the 3 on-use talents really nice. it's hard to use them as they have differing durations from the active itself (5, 10 or 15s?), which is also impossible to upkeep constantly. That could be a nice niche for executioners stance, albeit gimmicky
Shout triggers the second you look at the button
Book triggers ... not now ... ok now? ... Now please!? ... Crap I cancelled it
omg i really do hate that. WHIP THAT THANG OUT
@@MisterEtide I WANT TO SHOW THE HERETICS MY EMPEROR OF MANKIND FUNKO POP
Agree. Shout feels so much better than Chorus. I hate when games make mechanics feel terrible in order to balance them. Accidentally cancelling Chorus shouldn't be a thing. You should only cancel by hitting switch weapons, or after 2 pulses.
@@MisterEtide Tome Tuah - Take out that thang!
The 'never nerf anything ever' crowd is so annoying. If you limit balancing to only ever go in one direction, you'll have a neverending powercreep, as one of your buffs will always go a bit too far and now everything else needs to be buffed again.
Sure, nerf stuff carefully and I'll rather see consecutive smaller nerfs as to not undershoot the balance target.
I'd say a good first step is, remove the gold toughness from shout (still give toughness over the max cap just not gold), otherwise keep it as it is (and perhaps add 10s to the cooldown). It'll arguably still be the best ability in the game, even after that pretty big nerf.
honestly completely agree
krubers merc shout would be pretty much exactly the same, maybe replace the gold toughness buff with instead a damage reduction buff to mirror it as merc shout was solid A tier in vermintide meta
I wouldn't want to actually change the way it feels. Make it cost more. "Duty and Honor" adds 10-15 sec cool down and the gold Toughness only lasts 1/3 less time. "Only in death..." should be usable. No change to ability radius, Add 15 seconds cooldown only if an ally is revived this way. Make it so it is actually an option to play WITHOUT "Duty and Honor" or to play WITH "Only in Death..." (or to use both)
4 sure, lots of stuff needs to be nerfed, the hard difficulties should be hard, and OP weapons and ultimates shouldnt just trivilize the content. Voice, book, Dueling sword, Plasma gun all need to be nerfed imo.
Because it’s ruined so many things in games! Umm hello halberd - vermintide 2. Meta is fine for the average player. The rest of us challenge our play styles with non-meta setups. My vote is to either buff or augment the other abilities.
We know what that causes. Helldivers 2 went from having 10 difficulty levels to having roughly 4. I would take a brand new, level 1 player to a difficulty 7 with no hesitation.
This is an excellent and well put together video and very well explains the issues with the "buff everything" stance. You also propose a very measured set of changes which i appreciate. Thanks for spending the effort.
I have seen other games fall victim to similar player demands, and i really want darktide to avoid that fate. I like doing this sort of video because it gets people to think about balance and the work that goes into it. Thanks for your kind words!
As much as Exe stance could use a buff it just makes Ogryn's gunlugger even more outclassed since gunlugger Ogryn already feels like a squishier vet with worse melee and worse ammo economy.
The people that want insta reload on exec don't consider why they gave it to Ogryn instead, with his really subpar ranged arsenal and 80s cd ability. If they give insta reload on a 25s abiliy, gunlugger is gonna be straight up pointless.
@@karurosun and thats a good thing
@karurosun Ogryn is already essentially pointless so it wouldn't really change much. Big man needs big buffs across the board to have a presence in the meta to begin with
I think Executioners Stance should have 50% ranged damage increase, Toughness damage resistance by 25% and automatically reloads your weapon on activation.
These would make the executioners stance users get into the thick of it to take out elites and gunners. It would make the ult powerful and damage resistance will ease up gunner pressure and improve survival. Also being able to mag dump the bolter onto a boss and then pressing ult fire an instant 2nd volley of more powerful shots to finish them off sounds sick
Yes please.
You can 3 shot a plague ogryn with a hellbore lasgun, personally I don't see how much more powerful people want it
@@ffs-forfunsake6474 powerful enough for it to be on par with voice of command. I personally love it. But it definitely needs an increase in some kind of way as far as advantages neither ult has. When the game launched the ult could be configured that you take less ranged damage while in the stance, same with the automatic reload on activation. Right now it’s just decreased spread, marked enemies and more damage. Amazing for DPS but offers little gameplay variety and takes away from survivability that’s needed on higher levels, which is why the shout is a top pick
@@ffs-forfunsake6474 also I’m curious to see that build like actually curious. What are the blessings/ build for that?
@@KingKhalid888 iirc there is a build builder on darktide site, I can post it there. In a sum you take all damage on the left branch (plus cornerstone) and damage to ogryns/monsters in a center one. On a hellbore crit chance stacking while aiming on weapon and skill tree, and faster chain powershots on weapon. It's recoil makes it easier to chain weakspot crit shots relatively to bolter but you'll need to accumulate stacks by siting in place. Also default powered lasgun could make massive damage with + 90% damage to weakspot critshots and higher crit chance for consecutive weakspot shots. There is a streetAllSweeper machinegun build that wins from this ult but It takes a little to much time on carapace and monsters.
I like shout because it’s cinematic. “Get in there, make them scream!” While Light of the imperium or The gauntlet blares. Facing down a near endless hoard. To me that is what warhammer is about.
Biggest thing holding back infiltrate is probably that smoke grenade still exists
It would be cool if infiltrate caused a smoke bomb effect a d they just gave vet like some other nade type.
Cluster, trip mines, regular nades with bigger effect than shredders, flashbangs that make enemies attack each other or something temporarily while flashed.
Heck you could even give him something besides a throwable like a special gun or sniper.
Maybe make infiltrate extend it's duration by a few seconds on a one shot kill. Then you can ping pong off of enemies and not break stealth
Running between 15-20, I found a surprising amount of executioner vets (not 0) Not a single stealth vet or zealot. But those vets usually did pull their weight.
Also, gimme reload on execution
@@leblurg4997 I think ExStance gets played quite a bit because it is fun, not because it is good. It is a minigame. Also long-term players remember when it was the only vet ability.
I still think the pick rate won't change even if you nerf VOC, as you say it will still be incredibly powerful and straight up just the best Veteran ability by a mile (both in terms of utility and point investment efficency). Unless you nerf it down to borderline unusable trash tier
There needs to be something else on the other two abilitys that will make me pick it over VOC if im gonna have so much talent point tax
could just fix the rest of the talent tree instead of leaving it half as unusable.
1:52 Slight correction: Scrier's Gaze has a shorter base cooldown at 25 seconds.
30 seconds is also shared with Fury of the Faithful, Infiltrate, and Venting Shriek, as an addition.
Edit: I had a similar thought a while back, my thinking was specifically to maybe drop the duration of Duty and Honour to 10 seconds at first, maybe drop the golden toughness overcap to +30 or something, as a start, then see whether more nerfs are needed. This kind of approach is what I'd like to see in this situation, because the vibe and function of the ability is great, it's just too strong, so tuning down the numbers somewhat should be able to fix the issue. This is exactly the kind of thing that should be easy to do incrementally, to gauge the changes and land in the correct spot.
A lot of ppl want instant reload back, and that’s okay, but I agree with the idea a stacking reload speed buff while inability would be better. It incentivizes staying in the ability for as long as possible while maximizing uptime. Nothing is worse than having a long reload and losing your ability
Wouldn’t make the skill “better” or replace shout but it would be a nice QoL for the rare time I use it
I hope someday Shout is associated as Veteran Support Build, rather than being the start and end to the character. I said this on the last video, but the only way to balance gold toughness, is to sprinkle it everywhere else in talent trees so that every character can give themselves gold toughness through skillful play. It would also immediately ramp up build variety by pushing players to go down these never-picked branches. With more access to the safety net, Veterans can finally move off of Shout into offense without trolling the team.
The only way to balance gold toughness is to get rid of it entirely, what are you smoking.
Here’s my suggestion for an Executioner Stance buff, give it the Survivalist 1% max ammo generation on highlighted targets (chaff shooters exempt), but disable the 5s cooldown and localize it to just the Veteran. Another would be to add a node that grants bonus suppression and disables move speed/moving spread penalties while hipfiring to enable an aggressive, mobile playstyle.
Nobody talking about the second part of Dire Dire Docks kicking in once he introduces super infiltrate is CRAZY
the issue isn't just the abilities themself, it's loads of things. The single most picked node in vet literally leads into it so it's always the most efficient pathing, the pathing into both other abilities is more expensive and has worse nodes. Most darktide players are also not very good at the game, having a free get out of jail card is going to appeal to them a lot more, you see this with calls to buff ES despite it being perfect as is. Shout should be nerfed, infiltrate should have its ability cooldown reduced to 30s and we're good. Outside of that what needs to change is the pathing. Making the other abilities as strong as shout would be moronic and awful awful awful for the game. Move demolition stockpile to the node above all of the grenades then adjust some of the other surrounding nodes and everything will be fine.
I can definitely see them trying to shuffle around the best talents so that they're above and below the other two abilities instead. But players would cry "Talent Tax" and not acknowledge why the change was made.
VoC is not only powerful because of what it does but also because of how easy it is to use effectively. While other abilities require a player to do something to get value out of them, VoC just gives a player it's full value when you press a button.
important benefit for shout also is that you get instant guaranteed value on button press so it's great in a bad situation
Executioner Stance needs to add Survivability. The other 2 abilities act as oh crap! Buttons to bail you out of trouble when you lose all your toughness. Especially for newer players or players moving up in difficulty. They feel they need Shout to survive. The First activation should at least give half toughness and some on renewal. Maybe also one second invisibility or invulnerability so they can reposition on first activation.
I know it's not the bestest way ever to play but I have always enjoyed playing executioner's with the revolver and highlighting the enemies for teammates too. It felt like the best way to support teammates by giving them information on the enemies and made it easier for me to pick off enemies through crowds because of the pierce the revolver has. It was my favorite even before skill trees but I've used it less and less as they've updated the game. I know a little bump to executioner's would make it a bit more fun to do again but who knows when that will happen.
another consideration to put bring shout down a notch is to just decrease the amount of golden toughness you get.
having even just 1 point of it significantly increases your survivability. bringing the amount of golden toughness you get down would still allow you to make use of how strong it is if you're careful while dialing it back since you won't have as much room for error while you have it.
Honestly, even with the super variants i still think shout would still be something like 50-60% usage, simply because of both placement of the talent tree and its something you can slap onto any build and it will objectively benefit from it with it only being a 2 point investment. Shout just needs a cd nerf and a duration nerf, a shroudfeild cd buff and almost a full rework of the right side, and exe i think could maybe receive either qol or direct buffs, like maybe whenever you shoot a marked target the duration pauses and then it resets upon a kill (to inceivize the bigger the are... for more things than the plasma) . I think some changes along these lines would be healthier for the game overall
before watching video.
Executioner's stance: Give the Veteren some insane buff on headshot dmg that allows them to one hit non-boss enemies and do critical ammounts of dmg to bosses
Infiltrate: Pair with smoke bomb change. Drops two smoke bombs to the left and right of you enemies shooting through smoke bombs shots at allies or the veteren are treated as hitting gold toughness; and enemies do bonus dmg to their horde/elite/specialist allies within the Veterens smoke. Melee enemies will wildly swing at the closest target regardless of if they are friendly or foe. Vet still goes invis and gets big buffs.
After:
I personally think infiltrate should just be switched out to a tank build for vet (selfish mega tank) and give them the reactor shield that the boss captains have. and a new smoke bomb
I think shout would be fine with a recharge duration increase to 60 seconds base. It would still reward good timing and smart usage. It would still be subject to CDR options, but it would be much less spammable - which is what makes it so powerful at higher difficulties. It would still be nice to see buffs to executioners and stealth though.
yes, its impact is much more appropriate for a 60-second ability. it is just doing SO many things and its going off every 10s in havoc
I alternate between using shout and executioner's stance, and I prefer the executioner's stance's buffs because I am usually the person on my team dealing with ranged targets, specialists, etc and executioner makes that the easiest especially because I use plasma gun.
From my experience though, the mark target capstone path is extremely high value. It has the perk to reduce your ability cooldowns, 5% grenade restore, rending on all weapons with no requirements, and a big damage spiking ability in the capstone itself, and gaining access to the those using the other abilities is a massive point tax.
I use boltguns and plasma guns for my executioner's stance, and to be honest marksman's focus just doesn't pair as well with them as focus target, but I have to pay more points to branch into that.
I don't like to use infiltrate because it feels selfish and any time I am stealthed Im not killing, nor do I like weapon specialist but that is just a me thing. However, you did miss that infiltrate fully restores veteran toughness, can have two charges, and grants a reduced threat and damage spike if you spend the points for it, so I think the super infiltrate is a poor example.
I don't agree with the never nerf always buff, but I am always more hesitant to nerf because of how often a nerf gets applied that doesn't actually address the problem. I do believe that there does have to be a set standard of "good" where you buff and nerf to match that line appropriately.
This video and Tanner's Dueling Sword Is Fine On Psyker video is exactly how balancing discussions should go in this Emperor-forsaken community.
Mate, VoC is awesome just because of the shout itself: hearing "Hammer of ze Emperor!" or "Rally in formation RIGHT FRAGGING NOW" and seeing enemies around you getting knocked away is just too cool!)
As for the subject of discussion, Exec Stance should just reload your gun instantly. This is really it. It would make it at the same power level as VoC, minus the awesome factor (FS really need to record new voicelines for Stance to compete with VoC). Outlines do nothing (okay it were good training wheels). 25% damage buff is meh compared to either VoC or Infiltrate. Infiltrate btw is very powerful as a "carry ability" - whether it is worth it or not is debatable ofc...
IMO Giving Executioner's 20-50% rending on weakspot hit on ranged weapon alternate fire (M2) would give the precision weapons a good bump while also not buffing bolter dumping or plasma vs armor.
Infiltrate could suppress on entering and exiting stealth. a fun node could be "all allies in coherency enter stealth for 8 seconds. Attacking makes them leave stealth. +50% CD" would be a nightmare for pugs but might help the team avoid a troublesome pack of enemies.
I always viewed Shout as the OP meta tank cc ability, Infiltrate as the flanking/saving ability (ensures you can always revive your teammates), and Executioner's Stance as the high skill oriented ability. If you can aim well, you can rival Shout in damage, hell, you'll probably do more damage. The main issue between Executioner's and the other two is survivability. If you're not killing elites/specialists and hitting headshots, you die INCREDIBLY fast. Shout obviously needs to be reworked, since it's not only broken, but also extremely linear in design. Maybe giving Executioner's its old instant reload back and possibly reworking the more useless nodes on the left and right sides of the skill tree would bring some variety to Vet playstyles.
maybe instead of invulnerability from common melee enemies, executioners stance should have insane suppression that has a longer effect on any enemy who can get suppressed
I completely agree that Shout is just too powerful to remain as it does today, but also understand why people don't want it to be like Hell Divers and just nerf everything. The solution that Hell Divers came up was "OK, you'll be OP, but everything is going to be harder." This worked out well for them, but I don't think that FS can do the same thing here. If they nerfed Shout, then buffed the other two, to bring them all in-line, like you suggest, is a great way to go about it. I don't want them to spend the time to completely re-work the game to match the higher ability ceiling, just don't nerf everything so it feesl bad to play.
Another part of this discussion I'm having with friends is that Shout can have overlap with other abilities, like the Zealot's book and the Pyker's shield. If I had the other two abilities already on my team, I wouldn't mind having a Vet who just deletes everything with a gun while the others focus on the melee abilities. The Shout build is an excellent team build when playing with randos, but if you can coordinate with your team, you most likely don't need to bring all of these abilities, maybe just Shout and the Book? I'm not sure if this part is making sense!
shout is a universal "F*%^ OFF" button, its hard to beat, but all executioners stance just needs team wide bottomless mag/free ammo use and increased firerate
i still think shout would be the most meta, but id for sure think more people roughly a third or so would pick executioners stance, and then like 10-30% would take the infiltrate
Great video. Good points and I like these discussion style videos.
Last i used executioners is purely as a way to gain information for the team.
Imo. Buff duration to 10-15s, and grant instant reload on kills of priority targets. Also gun is auto reloaded upon activation
Thanks for this. Please do one on Ogryn next, he's in a poor state
I think super Inflitrate would be the most picked because killing 5 specialists in 10 seconds isn't hard when no enemy is targetting you and it completerly negate the vulnerability of stealth builds.
My idea for making exe.stance somewhat comprable to shout would be: 60% toughness on activation, instant reload of ranged weapon on first chained-activation and highlighting ranged enemies as basekit of the node on top of everything it does to damage right now. The additional nodes would add the highlights to the team but make it refresh when a highlighted enemy dies EVEN by teammates and another node is to highlight ogryns and bosses without removing regular highlights.
The most broken bit about this would be the instant reload.
Infiltrate would need to allow you to shoot in stealth for 6seconds but extend the duration for 2 or 3sec for a crit headshot kill.
I think a way you can look at abilities and their pick rates is “how much this ability gives me x how much effort it takes to use”
Infiltrate is the worst of the three: it gives you a worse stealth (compared to Shroudfield), on a long cooldown, and then you gotta figure out what to do with it (abstract cost, but still a cost on your brain). Low reward, lots of effort.
Executioner’s requires you to be a good shot and aim well, but the benefits are nice. Still, on an overall basis, you need to be consistently clicking heads, which gets progressively harder at higher levels. High effort, “good” reward.
Shout is a click it once and it gives you your shit. And the shit it gives is absurdly good. Low effort, very high reward.
People are drawn to the thing that gives them the most benefit when you put in the least effort necessary, especially at higher and higher difficulties. Maybe the solution might be to make Shout more intensive, maybe by needing to hold the button and put away your weapons for a few moments before it goes off? That would make you think a little more about your timing, and it’d make it an interesting tradeoff: do I charge the shout for the bigger reward while I’m getting mauled, or do I give out a quick shout just to get stuff off of me?
Could you do a video on the Ogryn’s “Coward Culling” suppression aura? I can’t quite tell if it’s ever worth putting a point into on weapons like the Rumbler or the Grenadier when it seems like aura specifically built for the mini guns.
Ill look into it, im actually not sure how it works either!
There is also one big, fat problem, which ruined all builds that run around "proper" grenade pick - the nodes composition. The grade of going down the line is an absolute trash. The very first one iteration of perks picking was though very limited back in time, but solid. Just give thirty points, and perks to choose to be filled: one of the keystone, ult and blitz to pick, and rest of the points to be dumped into stat nodes and perks.
shout will be king till gold toughness gets a change, biggest reason to take shout
I think exec should have some amount of suppression or stagger bonus for your ranged weapon, and having the instant reload come back in some form or fashion. Perhaps give it some ranged damage resistance too?
I'd suggest giving infiltrate a sort of "emergency retreat" node, like the zealot ability to not die once every however many minutes, you are about to die so instead you get one charge used to save you but you are left with like 25% of your health and an increased cooldown for that spent charge. Otherwise I'd integrate the lowered enemy priority into the ability by default but cut it down to 5 seconds instead of 10.
Scriers gaze is actually the shortest cooldown in the game at 25 seconds
Yeah youre right, thats so odd
@@MisterEtide and with psykinetic aura and seer’s presence you can basically have unlimited uptime on that ability. Don’t even get me started on the countless talents thats able to trigger too. If executioners stance/infiltrate had the same talent synergy as something like scriers gaze after bringing down shout a bit I think that would make it perfect. Many of the talents in the other trees for vet just are not good
The issue with VoC has always been the piss toughness; it'd be strong enough if it was just a simple temporary increase to your base toughness, but it also being able to act as a pseudo-Until Death against anything that would have otherwise downed or killed you outright is ridiculous. Remove the damage resistance property from piss toughness, and even then VoC and Infiltrate should have their cooldown times swapped since just because it wouldn't make you near-invulnerable anymore doesn't mean it wouldn't still be amazing.
I can fix it in one easy step
Reload on activation
Make plasma and bolter even more cracked
terrible idea. We've had this before and have seen the result which was not good. Also the plasma never needs to reload this would do literally nothing for that weapon since heat mechanic replaces its effective reload.
I would pick Super Infiltrate personally (when I'm not taking shout) because I love super fast knife stealth zealot and I think having a god-tier stealth vet ability would make for some interesting strategic plays and utility.
Make Infiltrate 15s long, keep the 45s CD, and let the ability cool down while active. You can 'shoot from stealth', but it breaks it for just under a second; like 3/4ths of a second, and you re-enter stealth after that timespan if you don't attack again. Can potentially change one of the additional talents to allow duration extension through special kills or some such. Executioner's should highlight things for allies by default; shouldn't need an extra node for something that feels like it should be a baseline. I think melee protection vs. non-elites would be hella strong, so maybe more like a huge damage-reduction percentage instead. And then a node to extend a portion of that damage reduction to allies.
For shout nerfs id say first make it a 60s cool down. More nerfs include removing golder toughness or causing the golden talent to remove or weaken the stun of voc. Infiltrate should let you attack with melee or ranged for about 5 to 10 seconds but with no damage buff. Reload speed on exe would be very nice, mabe even having its damge stack up per elite kill.
I think shout would still be better by a significant margin, to bring it both into balance and make it not so much of a near-invulnerability button I would replace the gold toughness with a full toughness replenish for all allies in coherency, and possibly buff toughness replenishment (from all sources) for teammates if that would be too weak.
I find executioner's stance very fun, the melee protection sounds like a step in the right direction but sounds too unengaging when the gameplay often revolves around alternating between ranged and melee at higher difficulties. Instead I would make the remaining duration of the stance expire at half the speed while a melee weapon is equipped so that you don't have to completely sacrifice stance in order to defend yourself from melee enemies for a few seconds. Just my two cents, it probably needs a little more improving than that, especially to be viable in auric maelstrom or havoc.
I like your change to infiltrate, although I've hardly used it, so I couldn't say whether that improves on its issues. I do like the idea of making it more similar to huntsman/ranger ults from VT2 in any case.
Shout Feels good to use. It is instantaneous and predictable. Compare it to Chorus which has a similar effect. But it isn't instantaneous, you can get knocked off of it, it just doesn't feel as good. If you Nerf Shout, don't make it feel worse, don't introduce an activation delay.
I ran executioners stance in lvl 19 havoc and really enjoyed it. Being able to see and kill all the ranged enemies is super valuable since they're pretty much the only dangerous enemy if you have a good team comp. Don't feel brave enough to try it in 20s or higher tho lol
Before finishing the video even with the imaginary buffs shout would absolutely remain top dog purely on ease of use alone. You press the button and you get to keep blasting/slashing. No need to build around the ability because it doesn’t need anything extra to do its job. It’s perfect for turning your brain off and still being useful. The other two still require you to lean more heavily into them. Shout doesn’t interrupt your cadence as much as the other two, especially executioners.
watch watch. I'm going to most like offend alot of people. but its worth it trust me. can't make an omlette without breaking a few egg heads.
Executioner's stance gives perfect auto aim
-OR Instant reload and for its duration ammo is drained from your reserve THEN your current magazine
-OR extremely controversially unlimited ammo for its duration with maybe shots fired leaving a Golden Trail. (Big E wants you to win so badly hes literally putting the bullets directly into your gun.)
Once I learrned the shout can revive teammates. INCLUDING those you can't physically reach
(a pysker head popped after all 3 of us jumped down, i shouted to revive him but the poor sod was so embrassed it happened at the start of a mission he left)
(a teammate got trapped...embarrassing but it happens, but it was mid-wave. only thing i could do was wait until he got downed then roar at him to get back up while dodging everything)
(the rare few times i go down i DO see teammates picking me up over everyone else because they know i'll get them back up good and proper. 😊 )
thus it became my go to ability and its never leaving unless the other two become just as grossly useful.
the stealth? really not my cup of tea, in a manner of speaking its a bit selfish. granted it has uses for sure. i just don't see myself using it. I'd much rather roar loud enough to knock back a charging super mutant or knock an ogyrn off his feet. lol
This is a good start, but Veteran builds are homogenized in more than just combat abilities. Grenades and auras should offer enticing options with distinct strengths, but right now that is NOT the case.
Executioner's stance should insta-reload your weapon. That alone would make it a lot better ability.
Possibly hot take: trade the gold toughness talent from Veteran shout with the 25% damage boost talent from Ogryn.
This would instantly make Ogryn WAY more viable in high difficulties as the true team lynchpin tank power fantasy.
And pressing a button to get a free knockdown and 25% damage boost to absolutely mangle a crowd or melt a boss isn't really something veteran could complain about...
I'm all in for nerfing shout but it has to be done bit by bit with data collection and assessment between each bit. I think a good first step would be to double its cooldown so simply spamming it every time it's available is less effective a tactic.
Looking at the bigger picture, I think this type of balance issue is inherent to the class system fatshark decided to go for. Now Veteran has the ability to pick all the best damage node and weapons and still have amazing survivability and team utility thanks to shout. Just break the class into a sergeant, a shooter and a scout and balance those three classes, their passives and their available weapons and you'll create way more playstyle options that are easier to balance
I still think even if you tried buffing the other abilities, I don't think they would be close in usage with one another it'd probably be shout with 80%+ usage. The fact that it creates breathing room when shit gets bad and gives toughness is enough to have people not switch. The only thing I can see them doing is nerfing the cooldown by 15+ seconds to stop shout spam since it's really easy to refresh when specialists are everywhere (especially in more difficult content), not even accounting for other classes cd reduction nodes or curios. Another thing is moving some nodes around because there's a lot of enticing nodes that lead to shout as well. The fact that's shout does two of the most impactful things of giving toughness immediately (let alone overcapping it which completely negates health damage), and making space while canceling enemy attacks is going to be unbeatable. The only way I can even see people switching is that the other abilities are overtuned in damage or utility, which even with the buffs you gave for ES and Infiltrate are not good enough to have people even consider switching. I think what would make the other abilities better is having something that's a bit more active rather than passive (or both), but even then, the only thing that would be is some sort of CC.
The game has already suffered from such immense power creep with the talent tree rework that the only way to introduce difficulty in the game is to have 40+ special/elite spawns per minute, having gunners effectively oneshot you while also covering the entire map in goo/fire/gas and spawning multiple bosses on top. Compare the time to kill for a horde of crushers and ragers to a Vermintide 2 chaos patrol.
its that Vermintide 2 situation all over again. why would you ever pick Huntsman when you can pick any other career and get insane crowd control and hp. you sacrifice all survivability for huge damage. it really needs buffed but I will never complain when I see a exec stance vet clear out a room of gunners.
Shout is simply too strong. Trying to balance around it would just result in Vet's abilities _all_ being dramatically better than the other classes' and that's not good balance.
So I'd remove the knockdown and leave the powerful team-support stuff. That might be closer to the average class ability effectiveness.
As for Executioner's there are a lot of ways to take it:
A. the stat buffs in this vid
B. other stat buffs (I think having dramatically higher uptime, so your Vet is near-perma Specialist-RADAR for the team would be a good candidate)
C. another version might turn it into more of a game: kills earn Lethality stack(s), more stacks earned from larger enemies, and activating Executioner's gives you 1% dmg and 1% weakpoint per stack (max 120). This resets your stacks to 20 (the minimum), and you're immediately able to build stacks with kills made during the Ability.
ALL of these versions would benefit from (1) increasing the innate zoom provided by Marksman's, and (2) letting you tap the Ability again during the ability to toggle zoom distance between normal and Marksman-Super-Zoom
Infiltrate shouldn't become too similar to Zealot stealth, so I think Zealot's stealth should be about big chonky backstabs, and Veteran is more defensive: so a dramatically lower cooldown (45->20s), slightly lower duration (8s->6s), and attacking doesn't break stealth. (It's defensive because it's a get out of jail free card you can play all the time, and also the subtalents that directly improve survivability would remain as-is).
I love executioner’s stance but it requires a much more intelligent player to make use of it in my opinion. It’s great especially on plasma gun and bolt gun but shout is just brain dead easy to use and provides you survivability outside of killing which is makes it an instant pick pretty much
Though I feel that the super infiltrate will be greatly favored in the same way shroudfield is rn (able to do objectives and res for free). Voice would prob still be meta pick even then just due to how fast and easy it is to use. Plus it benefits the team directly.
I do wish they buffed ES, it's also my fave vet skill.
The problem is if they buff executioner, its a fine line where it will just delete everything in the game. Maybe just give it a bit more survivability, im still relatively new to dt so i couldn't say.
I remember pre skill tree where low-profile is passive skill (just stand still). What if just put that as Executioner's stance and doesn't cancel skill out on swapping weapon? (losing skill because swapping to melee or throwing bomb because unexpected situation is a bit punishing)
Krubers mercenary ability from vermintide is similar, but weaker and has much longer cooldown and its still one of best abilities. For starters I would just double the cooldown of shout to 60 secs.
Even if you nerf shout, exe and infiltrate don't solve vet's toughness problem and that's a big factor for why they still would have a lower pick rate.
I know vet has toughness gen talents, but hear me out. Confirmed kill ONLY pumps out toughness when you are focusing down high value targets, and out for blood is the opposite where it doesn't really do a lot unless you mow down a lot of trash. Picking both is a pretty big concession because vet is starved for talent points. On your toes is pretty nice, but it has gaps in situations where you want to camp your melee or gun, and literally all of these talents only do anything to begin with if it's you getting the kills.
Using shout fills in the gaps that any of these talents leave behind, whereas exe has no toughness gen at all, and infiltrate has long cooldowns that make it unreliable.
Compare this to zealot and psyker. Zealot gets toughness on ALL of his abilities that also get a short cooldown just for landing a few crits, and the toughness on dodge talent is super universal and easy to get value out of, too.
And I have no idea why anyone thinks psyker is frail, because it's constantly farting out more toughness for just existing and landing crits, ESPECIALLY gun psyker with its stupidly high crit chance and scriers gaze giving back 75% of your toughness for a single key press.
"Super infiltrate" and "super Executioners" if that is the name choice for a buff for those skills, then id rather not see them buffed. I like relentless ambush and sly marbo incarnate as new skill names! XD
People who dont want nerfs in a pve game dont understand game balance. If everything is op the game becomes a boring cakewalk. If you want that go play a kids game
The high difficulties need to be hard and if they are balanced around the one op ability that bottlenecks builds, and its easier to nerf one thing to bring it down to the norm that to buff eveything else
Executionner's stance is my favorite now, I have hundreds of hours playing this ult alone, and I really think that (balance wise) it's not that far to being ok, so yeah I confirm the 5% vet percentage, it's credible to my pov too.
I would say 10 to 15% infiltrate though is closer to the truth, because there is one or two argument to be made with infiltrate that shout don't cover, even if shout is absolutly worth investing one more perk point to get it instead of infiltrate.
For your 2 buff, Infiltrate.
Man, 10 seconds free firing, when you can recover cooldown while killing, seems too busted with a 30 seconds cooldown.
Give a damage bonus and less infiltration while firing (like 3 to 5 sec) it woulld be cool
Exec strance.
The damage boost arent essential for me (Breakpoint wise, it's overkill I think), I xould take +10% critical strangely, because it would be an incentive to play Marksmùan Focus more (crit = finesse damage afterall)
I absolutely agree to more reload speed and some kind of protection against lesser ennemies.
Maybe, MAYBE, something about free shot (no ammo consumed) while your ult is active ?
For the 'reasonable' shout
- 35sec (to 40) cooldown
- Do not stack after 50 gold toughness
- last only 10 seconds
+ The improvment that make you revive allies do not decrease the range of the shout or/and the cooldown of the shout
But tbh man, if we talk of global character balancing, the Psyker is seriously the one to look at first, by far, not vet and his shout.
I be fine with having longer cooldown in exchange for unlimited ammo for the whole duration.
This is a dumb a suggestion but what if u make it like the kingpin perk deck in payday 2
U get agro from all the enemies, u take 75% less damage and u get heals in exchange for kills
I must say I think that super infiltrate would be picked way way more than shout on high level play if that change were to happen but I see ur point
Executioner's stance as it is now will never be as good as shout simply because its an ability that relies on you having ammo, not having ammo causes executioner's stance and barrage to fall right off a cliff and survivalist doesn't help them because of the 5 second limit, if executioner's could get its own instance of survivalist that affects only the ability user with no cooldown whatsoever while the ability is active, then it would greatly help with increasing its usability in higher difficulties where enemies all become spongier and ammo usage comes at a premium. All that and it would help it's build diversity if all the ability modifiers that show up down the talent tree would also refresh alongside executioner's, otherwise stuff like For the Emperor will always be dogwater for providing too small a buff for too short a duration for barely any uptime as well as just being a general blueball for not refreshing w/ executioner's.
It supports the team like mercenary kruber
Oh, good. It’s not just me. This ability seemed underwhelming and I didn’t see the utility of it, either.
Not gonna lie i REALLY wanna see a huge balance overhaul for every class soon. 70% of the builds in this game are either redundant or outright terrible, and have been literally for over a year. Havoc has only highlighted this problem further. Ogryn may be a shitcan, but hes just the tip of the iceberg in regards to the horrid character balance in Darktide that Mister E is trying to reveal here.
Gold toughness needs to not over rule the usual toughness over riding mechanics, like snipers or pox bursters.
Getting extra toughness that protects health damage from things normal toughness protects you from, until it gets reduced below your usual 100 pct toughness... seems fine enough, but when it over rides snipers??? Too much.
Mister E, you have to chill or you will make shout nerf. The community won’t be happy about it
As a wise leader once kinda said… “I AM THE COMMUNITY!”
I literally tried this today because I'm trying to get 20 mastery on all the weapons, and I'm on the hellbore. I can clear auric damnation fairly consistent with stealth vet. However, I'm struggling in regular damnation with this build.
what if all enemies highlighted by ex stance receive 25% more damage from the whole team? or another node for all highlighted enemies dealing less damage to the team.
Shouts also stack... making 4 shout vets super viable in any mode, giving you like what 200 plus gold toughness?
is there a buff ogryn video out there? Easiest way to make Ogryns viable is to give them immunity to disablers. just that change alone would make them way more viable. Some small dog or man-sized net shouldn't be able to stop an Ogryn, really.
the hill I will die on, the issue with vets other ultimates isn't VoC, it's the rest of the talent tree and pathing. you just lose out on points. he has 2 awful blitzes only 1 good aura which is the same place as his only good blitz. a lot of the nodes outside of his optimal build path aren't very good. it's not the existence of VoC but the rest of the talent tree.
I don't want to say "skill issue", but the difference between a player who understands dodging attacks and general movement tech over a bad or inexperienced player is a much more tangible difference to me than some changes you might make to special abilities. I'd rather have a sub-optimal competent player than a poor player who's running "the best build", whatever that happens to be.
Right, true, but this video is about making it so that there is less of a “best build” and the game comes down more to individual skill
@@MisterEtide I get that. I run with a vermintide player with over 1k hours in that game. He's still sour about what they did to Slayer and he's very hesitant to green-light any nerfs. He doesn't like the idea of high-skill players walking the devs towards nerfing things. Not that it'd be yours or any individual player's fault what decision the devs end up making, but your part of the communities' voice for sure.
I can see them nerfing shout because (as you noted) it's getting picked a lot more than the other options because of the utility and I'm sure the devs can see that in the game's stats. I hope whatever nerfing does hit the veteran's shout still leaves it with the utility to be a good teamplay ability. Preferably a cooldown nerf or golden toughness time nerf (maybe drop it from 15 seconds to 10 seconds).
It'd probably still be shout but i fuck with super executioner
Urgh I hate the "buff everything" mindset. I HATE that Helldivers caved to the crying babies and gutted all the teamplay to make their game worse with no chance of fixing it because it'll just make the babies, I don't want to do any teamwork I want to run off and be solo but super OP and if I fail I want a team to blame because it's never my fault, cry again (Hi Knife and Dueling sword players who sprint off, die, flame and leave, both those weapons need a bit of a nerf).
Edit: 10% super infiltrate, 70% shout, 20% super executioners.
Super executioner would probably let you 1 mag a nurgle weakspot with the Spearhead lol.
and thats a good thing
An important factor why you see shout so often, even on lower difficulties, is because it fulfills the main class fantasy of the veteran. At launch, many people were somewhat dissatisfied with how the veteran's role was only being a sharpshooter, when they had pictured the veteran more as an inspirational figure, a commissioned officer, a commissar, a grizzled sergeant, leading from the front, buffing their teammates and doling out medium-to-close range ranged damage, but having the ability to switch to melee. I think the shout and the middle tree is more in-line what people expected from the veteran and want out of the veteran, rather than an infiltrator or a sharpshooter.
I hope never to see infiltrate on my team. I would rather see shroudfield, at least it gives huge damage hits. And shroudfield at least promotes being invis for very short periods of time. You know when you see infiltrate, that they are going to make your life harder. They might do objectives for you, which is nice, but that is it.
If it made the whole team invis, I would be ok with it. Otherwise I think they should rework it to something else.
still think shout should not give gold toughness for such a long time, it should be for an emergency moment and then you manage with normal maxed toughness.
from there:
- feel executioner's should have a buffed reload speed at least for the fist time, that way you can sustain the fire better but not forever
- as for infiltration it should have similar CD to current shout (maybe reduced CD on weak spot hit when breaking invi?), it makes you safer in the engage and disengage, but doesnt help your team as much as the others, so it would be balanced imo (and in that regard, do we even have a weapon/build that fitts the "camo sniper" fantasy?)
I use exec whenever i use single shot or slow ROF weps. trying to make most of its damage. If we were to give it a free reload. That would split me 50/50 with Shout.
There is a theme running in your vids that the duration is never long enough.
5s is not long for a new player.
It makes it stressful as you want to chain but youre not good enough.
So begginers have to fall back to dependable low skill talents.
Correct, i am firmly in favor of all these short buffs being extended, the teeny tiny length of some of these skills and buffs are laughable when you see the massive 15s buff shout gives
Edit: Simpler answer, to bring Shout in line with current power level. Increase CD to 60 seconds. While Zealots book lasts longer, stops damage, and gives more toughness it DOES need to be channeled so for a quick pop and done it seems on par. I don't think changing its functionality is needed as much as reducing its uptime. That said, increasing the CD does make me think you could then remove the CD penalty from "Only in Death Does Duty End," but leave the reduced radius.
Just fun before I see what all you suggest, here's how I would change pretty much every classes abilities in my fantasy land to bring them up to the power of Vet Shout without invalidating Vet Shout.
For Executioner's Stance: add a toughness regen mechanic to killing marked enemies in executioners stance as baseline. Say 10% toughness regen and 20% TDR for 10 seconds on marked kill, further kills refresh the duration of the TDR. ES timer pauses on when you reload. Replace "Enhanced Target Priority" with "Turn the Tide," a node that give allies in coherency the same 10% toughness and 20% TDR that you get when you get a marked kill.
For Shout, change the knockback to a stagger effect and remove the reduced radius and increased CD penalties from the "Only in Death Does Duty End" node. Make Shout affect allies in Coherency as a baseline (Replenishes toughness for you and allies in coherency) and change "Duty and Honor" to only add the gold toughness effect.
For Invis, reduce the cooldown to 30 seconds and bump it up to a 10 second duration. Make the current "Surprise Attack" node baseline. Change "Surprise Attack," to "Linear Ambush," and have it give allies in coherency a 15% damage bonus for 5 seconds after you leave stealth but make it lock out "Overwatch". Remove the CD penalty from "Overwatch." Add a node "Rescue," that makes allies you res while invisible ALSO invisible and prevents you from falling out of stealth while resing an ally (can exceed the max duration). Change "leaving stealth suppresses" to "leaving stealth staggers."
Make the "Marksman" and "Close Quarters Killzone" nodes ALSO effect allies in coherency. Have all three ability modifiers take affect on leaving stealth when running infiltrate
If these changes were made to vet I'd also want these changes made to the other classes except Ogryn because I haven't played it enough:
Change Venting Shriek to emanate in a 9m radius around each ally in coherency (its a psychic scream why not have it echo through your team), rather than just right in front of you to sort of replace the knockdown effect lost by my recommended Vet Shout changes AND increase the team utility of that ability. That buffs the two damage nodes enough it doesn't need anything else. Just move the nodes on it so you can pick any one of the three instead of having to chain through becalming eruption.
Psyker's Telekine Dome node should be changed to move with the Psyker rather than just place it on the ground, but reduce its duration to 15 seconds and its radius reduced by 15%. Increase the width and height of the baseline Telekine Shield by 15% and bring the duration up to 20 seconds. Change the "enervating threshold" node to remove the 10% chance to stun chaff, keep the 100% chance to stun big shit, and have it apply 3 stacks of soulblaze to anything that passes through the shield.
The TDR from Scriers gaze should apply to all allies in coherency.
Zealots invis should be changed to have an 8 second duration with "Master Crafted Shroudfield" and also allow you to pass through enemies. Increase the movement speed bonus to 40%. Remove the CD penalty from "Perfectionist" and buff "Invigorating Revelation" to also grant its bonus to all allies in coherency.
For Book Zealot, the "Banishing Light" node should be baseline since you have to take it anyway. Give Zealot a node called "Flames of Perdition" to replace "Banishing Light" attached to the book but not in the same place as banishing light, that reads "Enemies staggered by Choir receive 2 stacks of burning per pulse and 2.5% brittleness per stack of burning applied."
Zealots Fury of the Faithful, make it restore full toughness and add 20% rending and 20% cleave to the attack speed bonus. Add a node "Choir of Wrath" that give 50% of the toughness, attack speed, rending, and cleave to allies in coherency but make it lockout "Redoubled Zeal."
Like I said I've played the fuck out of Psyker and Zealot but haven't really touched Ogryn so not sure what buffs / changes they could use to bring them in line with these changes but I'm sure they could use some tweaks in my dream land as well.
Hell yeah nerf everything so their popularity in in line with ogryn!