This really explains a DR2.0 effect that has always bothered me. I call it the "Ditch of doom" where once you get the car too close to the ditch, you're screwed. Exactly as you demonstrated, steering away from the ditch is actually impossible.
Having never driven a real car like that at that pace, I have always assumed this is just what they do. Given the forward momentum at a high speed, you just can't steer your way away from a ditch. Apparently, that's not the case(?)
That's what makes the game fun though 😉 Also, I have seen that viral video of irl car stuck in the ditch and trying to get out while driving quite a long distance, still unable to get out. So it can happen irl.
Wall is one thing, a ditch is a whole another. A car really is a PITA to get out of a ditch, at speed or not. This rear wheel steering can get you in the ditch easier though.
@@pooroldnostradamus Depends a lot if it's on the inside or not. The inside tires are less loaded due to lateral load transfer, with the front typically being 0 load in acceleration. It might just float over with little effect apart from suspension compression.
thing is, even if the car would rotate around the rear axle like in real life, the very end of the car (whatever hangs over behind the rear wheel) would still be steered against the wall, countering the rotation. Simply the effect would be less pronounced,
Even after 500+ hours of DiRT Rally 2.0, I've never questioned as to why the turning was so odd, it's just something that I've adapted to overtime and was like: Yeah, game physics be game physics. Then I've watched the official gameplay reveal and some other early access videos for WRC and immediately realized that something was off, like I'm watching a repeat of the same handling model. This video has been a huge eye opener and I thank you for that.
Really great analysis. I was not able to put into words what was wrong with the DR2 physics especially at high speeds. I always found it impossible to control cars when speeds would go up. Only after trying RBR I realized how intuitive car control could be especially on gravel. I still crash a lot, but in RBR it always feels good and you know what you did wrong. :)
@@thelazywanderer_jt yea, it needs a bit of fiddling around, but RallySimFans currently have really great distribution. It is actually a single installer which installs everything needed to go rallying.
@@thelazywanderer_jt Why would a simulator work well with anything but simulation controls? You wouldn't really be able to drive a real car with a gamepad anyway. Most sim controllers are barely up to the task to begin with. RBR needs just one plugin installer to be up to date, it's not that hard even for zoomers, mostly option tickboxes.
@@thelazywanderer_jt Yes, RBR is. But nobody plays "RBR" anymore. These days we play a RBR/NGP (!) distribution created by the RSF community. The last thing is completely wrong as well - being fast in simracing is not about hardware, but about skills. RBR is no different. I have world records done with keyboard.
I've never realised this, but after pointing this pivot point thing out it just seems like a scam. they're trying to mimic a "feel" instead of just simulating the real thing.
I think codemasters should review this video. This is important information for the rally game enthusiast. And the point you made about the back end hitting the wall while trying to escape it is so freaking true. I remember being a beginner at DR2.0 and asking "why the hell cant I drive away from a friggin wall?!?!" 😂 Seriously though, they should fix the pivot point for simulation mode or something. Back tires just don't slide at normal driving speeds
They do they are not going for it if they are be prepared for many version like f1. Like fifa only until 23 they had more advance feature left out of previous version.
They probably do, it’s just that their decision to go with it (still) is mind boggling. An option for arcade vs sim would solve the issue for so many gamers.
@@mrelwoodgames5971 more money they are calculating. But the game hardly is a sim anyway. It's not unusual this is how they do things with their games. I see very clear marker what they plan. I can tell you About it but if your family with ea you would know this already.
i loved it too, but let's be fair his format is not for everyone. what about a 1min bullet point style overview of the key conclusions at the beginning of the video. that might help grab more people's attention.
@@-IE_it_yourself I’m definitely open to ideas and constructive criticism, and yours definitely does sound like a good idea! Expect to see my take on it on the next one… Cheers!
I work at an actual rally school and we determined students who play Dirt Rally have developed some bad habits which is tough to unteach and this video makes so much sense to me. We found the WRC series has more realistic physics than Dirt, although I can’t explain it in such a great technical way. Essentially the way the car rotated while being under throttle and left foot braking was some realistic in WRC10, whereas Dirt required you to lift, and then we had to untrain the lifting problem. Great work.
You can use real-life techniques to be better at Dirt Rally 2.0. You cannot use Dirt Rally 2.0 to accurately learn real-world techniques without some foundation in real-world technique and application. @@ΙάσωναςΠαπαδόπουλος
Wow! That’s amazing to have you here, and that you feel that way about my theory! What you say makes a whole lot of sense. After hearing that about WRC 10 I might have to launch it again, no matter how much I hated the game…
You described exactly what i couldn't put into words about the handling. Going back to Dirt 2.0 after not playing for a while really made me notice it even more. I'm still looking forward to the game but sort of frustrated because i know it could be so much better.
I tend to trust Jimmy Broadbent’s comments, and he said that while EA WRC still isn’t a true sim, it’s much improved on the DR2.0 and a heck of a fun drive. After all, I’ve got hundreds of hours of DR2.0 under my belt despite this issue. I have no doubt that I’ll be driving the EA WRC a whole lot as well! I also try to remember that while the visuals may look bad and wrong, the actual handling that can be felt while driving in dashboard or bonnet view may actually be much better. There still was some twitchiness that shouldn’t be there, but hopefully it’s something I can get by with.
@@mrelwoodgames5971 I really dont understand why jimmy seems to love this game and dirt rally while criticizing the wrc series so much? I mean he made ONE video on wrc generations, but has already pumped out several on ea wrc 23. Both of the games have unrealistic physics, at least wrc generations has proper stages
@@Nerderkips I think the weird accelerator thing put a lot of people off as it felt kind of strange on hairpins. But yes the stages were awesome. If that had a VR mode, i would have probably played it much more.
It is a shame really! the game is good, but the way the cars corner, spot on, never thought that! If you play RF2 is very difficult to like to drive in DR2, i think DR1 was better in that regard. RF2 have some old mods (rally tracks and rally cars) that behave what i could call realistic. or what i think is realistic, never driven a rally car, but have driven miles and miles off road with my Pajero in every type of terrain.
FINALLY! This video put into words EXACTLY what ive always subconsciously felt when playing dirt rally 1 and 2. Its nice to see a video finally talk about the physics in a factual way instead of every other sim racing youtuber saying "ea told me its better in the review notes, so I think the physics are improved."
i've always played DR2.0 with cockpit camera and never noticed the effect you analyse, but i've always felt that the car feels exagerately "light" on the rear axis and now I have an explanation about this impression. Making a 360 spin at relatively slow speeds shouldn't be as frequent as it is in DR2.0. Looking at WRC gameplays I agree it looks like the physics hasn't changed so much so i'm a bit disappointed too but it also looks like they added a little bit of "weight" on the rear axis, so that the feeling might be equally not very realistic but probabily, all things considered, nice and funny to play
The whole pivoting on the rear wheels is exactly why people don’t understand how to parallel park. Once you steer with the back wheels as your pivot point you can easily figure out how to parallel park. It also works when you are backing up with a trailer. Knowing where your pivot axles are at crucial to backing up with a trailer.
@@mrelwoodgames5971your the 2nd person mentioning this. 99% all hype and bias saying how real the game is. You just made the solid case of ditching this game. It's not appealing anymore that they did not change it to make it more real. Contradicting what they said on it being more real.😑🙄
@@mrelwoodgames5971 the problem is most dont care only those that care will be real rally driver not horizon fan that many will be playing. I tired to raise the issue everyone told me to go cry in a corner and get lost. I appreciate alot your review horizon fan just don't care.😟 But I do want to know more as that can help other developer not make the same mistake.
Your insights about the handling/pivoting problems are nothing short of profound. You're 100% right on the money. I never realized it, but it's clear as day now.
I don't know how to express my gratitude to you for creating this video. Many people have praised the realism of the physics in DiRT Rally 1.0 and 2.0, but I have never agreed, and I always found it difficult to explain the discomfort I felt to them. (Already played nearly 1,000 hours each though. It is a good game.) Now, by sharing your video, it has become much easier for me to explain, and my mental stress has been greatly relieved. Even when I tried to explain the discomfort I always felt from these games while participating in many car races, I only received frustrating responses like, "You're just an amateur racer, what do you know?" I thank you once again.
Wow, that's an amazing video. Great explanation of the whole pivot-point thing, and how the rear-end of the car turns more than the front-end. This explains everything, now I understand why it's literally impossible to drive away from a ditch or a wall, despite my best efforts, and why in general, the game feels very unnatural at times. Thank you for this!
I pointed out in Reddit the wrong pivot point shown in the gameplay and got down voted like crazy. I have no problem with the new WRC being more in the arcade side. In fact, DR2 is my most played rally game and I will likely buy WRC, but the fanboys of reddit negating the evidence baffles me
Thank you for your in-depth analysis on the physics of DR2 and how it's going to be the same for WRC 23. I always wondered why DR2 was awful when driving on tarmac and now I know.
So THIS is why pavement has always felt so scary no matter what im driving :0 Im very sad to see the DR2 successor will still have the same problem. Very good video!
Man, that rear steering explains so much lol. I always got mad thinking "There's no fking way the back of my car would have hit that" and now I know why.
This actually makes me feel dumb. When i watch you demonstrate it, it seems so damn obvious but i never really figured it out before. The thing you mentioned about not being able to get off of a wall you rub against was so familiar. I always found it weird how some sims had that problem but others dont. I remember it especially driving me insane in project cars 1 and 2. Now i understand. Thank you! Really hoping codemasters sees this And to me this is concrete proof that richard burns rally is still the best rally sim ever. Frankly i think maybe even sebastian loeb rally evo might be better than dirt rally too (it always was on tarmac physics) because i certainly dont remember this 4 wheel steering effect. I could be wrong tho. I always thought that sim was underrated
Man thanks for explaining this. I could never understand why it was so hard to get away from a wall in 2.0! And I noticed the slipping at low speeds. There’s really no way to drive a car normally at low speeds in 2.0.
I would say that it reaches fast speeds as well, since the phenomena gets even stronger at speed. The fast Spain tracks on DR2.0 are specifically pretty bad because of this.
Yes, I was so mesmerized how I was hitting the walls with the back of the car in 2.0 when I was near them and was trying to move away. lol now it makes sense
Same. Finally explained why I dread Sweden snow banks since dirt rally 1. When steering away from the bank the cars still always turn back into it, very counter intuitive. Wrcg feels better with the fact that snow banks are soft and cars can ride on them
You can argue that tire slip happens at inappropriate speeds in DR 2.0 but none of these videos show any unusual pivot point. If you watch carefully none of those turning demos have the rear wheels actually moving sideways at all. I went in and experimented carefully watching the road textures. This turning from the center business is pure myth. It doesn't happen in this game or likely any other game from Codemasters or otherwise. In real life, when you turn a car any part of the car behind the rear axle swings out. This is a short distance in most cars but if you are right near an obstruction your rear end will hit it if you try to turn away. I dented a car like this in a parking lot when I was young. This would further be exacerbated by the wall curving in as you try to move forward. You can even see in the footage he shows here how the car hits in the rear and that is what bounces back from the wall.
When i first saw that teaser video from EA I knew theres something off with the physic, but I didnt know why. Thanks for this deep analysis of the physic in new WRC game!
Incredible work with the demo, such a clear explanation for something that bugged me in DR2. After a while I've internalized the "stuck to the edges" behavior to the point that I actually counter steer in anticipation before I swipe an edge with the rear so I dont swing the rear further into the edge lol.
Always wondered what I was having a conflict with while playing all the Dirt series games.... now super clear and totally appreciate this analysis.... nice work!
Great analysis. 👏🏻 Exactly my thoughts when i saw the gameplay videos. Shame they‘re still sticking to their centre pivot physics after all these years.
100% with you on this. First thing I try in any driving game/sim is drive slowly in a circle to see whether any thought has been given to 'real' behaviour of the rear tyres - almost always disappointed. Like you will definitely get this game at some point but damn it's frustrating that those of us who notice/care about realistic physics get no consideration. Surely there's a market there?
I think there is a market for any game that is good .. It's not about simple - or hard either just look at " dark souls " and 35 million units sold .. - It really is time for a " RBR " killer with some budget and realism ..
If the handling really does work based on a "pivot point", it's inexcusable as that's just not how car physics are made in general. If the physics engine rotates the vehicle in any way other than applying (lateral) friction forces at the tire contact points, it is incompetence by the developers plain and simple. Also, the fact that this has been a problem for 8 years now, and has not been the case in the old Dirt titles (3 and prior) is astounding.
Oh it is present in all. codemasters games. Dirt1 juat has so much grip that it doesnt really manifest so much. Same was in DR1, prior to aero update. Cars stuck to the road and it wasnt noticeable.
It's actually kind of "amazing", that they get the physics that they do, with a wrong underlying mechanism like this. It seems strange, that they try everything to "fix it away", because honestly, there's a lot that's right and more realistic than in the older games. But still, there's this problem. Why do they do it like that? Because, they really did improve physics in this game as far as I can tell. I've seen dozens of videos from different cars on different surfaces. The modern Rally cars feel kinda "strange" to many people, because they have so much grip, but as far as I can tell from my research, that's how the modern Rally cars handle. If you select an older car, then you get a completely different handling again. Yes, even understeering, or oversteering, it's there. It's just mind-boggling, how they refuse to fix the underlying mechanism. Because if they did, it would be amazing, since we see that apart from that, they're committed to support all kinds of handlings as accurate as possible. And that's the strange thing. Apart from that, they try to fix everything away. But why the effort? Why not fix the fundamental mechanic?
I think it's the chase camera that is giving the illusion that the car is pivoting on it's center. I tried doing 3 point turns with a RWD and 4WD on tarmac, watched the replay and saw the car pivot on it's rear. Don't forget that 4WD cars turns differently at speed due to having powered front wheels which means if the car turns hard the rear will step out but due to it being 4WD it won't keep spinning like a RWD would.
The camera movement is there that’s true but if you do a little testing and pay attention to the rear wheels you’ll see he’s right. It’s easiest to experience this at the Dirtfish playground.
@@malawander3000 Cars will behave differently at different speeds and traction levels. In a perfect world with infinite grip, a car will always pivot on it's rear. RWD cars drifting pivots from the front. FWD and 4WD has powered front wheels which means they CAN pivot on their center with the right speed and grip.
@@Loshirai14 I see what you’re getting at but the problem is you can drive very slowly and the rear wheels slide out no matter what. They literally slide across the surface because they aren’t simulating the behavior of a real wheel.
@@malawander3000 I literally did 3 point turns and some slow u-turns, watched the replay with helicopter camera and the car pivots from the rear like a normal car.
This last summer I started taking my recently acquired Miata NC to autocross events. One of the first things I learned is that cars pivot on the rear which helped me in getting through cones more efficiently without hitting them. Not sure how to explain, more or less by trying to hit the cones with the rear of the car. I genuinely feel much more confident driving by curbs now because of that 😆. It also highlights to me how accurate your explanation is.
I've always felt the reason a lot of people curb their rear rims is because they don't understand or realize that their vehicle pivots around the rear axle. This game would probably make sense to them.
RBR for realistic driving feel and after a few crashes you can just "relax " in EA WRC SimCade xD Finally someone that addresses the "Elephant in the Room" !! Great Video Mate!!
preach it, brother! have always felt that the cars in racing sims would pivot differently depending on your view. for instance, there was a small difference in how the car "handled" (turned) when using a dashcam view vs a cockpit view. and now your visuals detailing how this impacts the rear wheels is very enlightening. thanks so much.
The pivot point in the center of the car was exactly my main problem with Dirt 2.0 and I also noticed immediately on videos that EA WRC seems to behave the same way. Very interesting to see the exact same analysis in a UA-cam video. Because even though I was always convinced about this weirdness, since nobody else really talked about it I thought maybe it’s just me being a bit overanalytical. But now I’m happy to see that others actually see the problem too, it’s not just me going crazy 😊. I really believe that the WRC Generations game got this aspect of the handling much more right. However, im the same as you, I will also buy the EA game anyway because there seems to be enough other advantages and positives to look forward to and have fun with.
I don’t know if WRC Gen was improved over WRC 10, but the latter had some really strange issues with it’s turning. Not necessarily the same pivot point one, but something really peculiar. I hated it so much that I couldn’t get myself to play it for more than a few runs. Besides, the sounds sucked real bad compared to DR2.0. 40€ totally wasted on that one.
@@mrelwoodgames5971 I think WRC Gen was a big improvement over WRC 10 in the handling, especially regarding the weight of the cars which was much increased. With that said, Im not saying WRC Gen was necessarily great in all departments. But I did/do enjoy the car handling model for sure.
@@Utube2Itube i mean sure if by big improvement you mean broken rushed mess. they never even managed to fix the throttle bug . and they somehow managed to make gravel fell like you are driving on soap. literally only good thing about generations is tarmac and stage design thats it.
I agree and thanks for the analysis of the most important part of this. Exactly what I was looking for. EA/Codemasters need to see your analysis and be convinced.
You have just explained in the most simple way what's wrong with all these games post RBR. If they listened to you in this video then, I believe you have unlocked the key for the success of the games and a simple update to fix them. Well Done Sir !!!!
It would not be a "simple update" but a rewrite of the whole car kinetic model and probably implementation of an actual tire model, which for a typical dev isn't even a matter of time, but just impossible.
Yes I think that is where the problem really is. We all understand what is wrong, I suspect the Codemasters dose as well, but in reality making your solution a reality is probably more difficult than any of us here understand. @@mrelwoodgames5971
I'm sure it's probably difficult to create a simulator like RBR, but it's not a question of difficulty, but of will. The simplified driving model refers to what we are now accustomed to in the gaming industry: accessibility. If WRC 23 was as simulative as or more than RBR, 10% of people would appreciate it (myself included) for the physics and driving feeling, but the rest would say "Dude, it's too difficult, I don't even have a steering wheel, I'll buy something else"
That is probably true. Which is why there needs to be a switch for legacy arcade mode and a precise sim model. Like they have in Mafia 3. My guess is that until EA WRC gets a competitor with better physics, there’s nothing to push them towards the sim side of racing.
I don't think that's the case if they also invest in gamepad friendly controls and assists. Gran turismo seem to handle pretty well in both tarmac and gravel and the intuitive controls still help you counteract well enough
I don´t think so.. i had friends that never played a game(54 years old), much less a simulator. So, some of them that tried RF2 DR2 F1 23 and AC, in the same day, for hours at my home, could only drive RF2 without an accident or going out in the first corner, all the others games, the most difficult was DR2, then F1 23 and the others more or less.
@@pedroferrr1412 They probably exist, and I agree with you, but we are talking about a minority. The target of these games are people who are passionate about rallies, who want to spend an evening in peace and without too much hassle, a sort of casual gamer, but not so casual. The aim is to get as many players as possible. And thinking about it when I started to get curious about rallies, I didn't think about RBR (I didn't even know it) but about DiRT Rally. And in fact, they succeeded with me, and now I have become more demanding. So demanding, that unfortunately, despite being an improvement over DR 2.0, I feel off target, because unfortunately for me the driving feeling is EVERYTHING. But hey, I started from DiRT Rally too, right?
I think a real sim model with just more lenient parameters can be very accessible, if not more accessible as long as the gamepad script is good. It's just that nobody knows how to develop good sim models, even among the consumer sim developers.
There is another simulation-degree test for a racing game: When the car stands completely still and you move your steering-wheel completely right or left (which moves respectively steers the front tires), the car moves marginal sidewards at the front, if higher simulations-degree. I only know RBR or RFactor2, which passes this test positive. I never played IRacing.
I think its a more precise modelling, than a script to fake higher simulation. As I interprete the telemetry data of RBR, the circulating area of a tire is divided in 7 parts. That means this 7 parts always change (from 1 to 7, with again beginning with part 1 after full rotate), when the tire circulates. I don't know if original RBR passes the described stand-still-test (but RBR-NGP has a lot tire-physics added). But I would rather play the original RBR game, than newer Arcademasters games. @@mrelwoodgames5971
Understandable. Gravel-driving can be very satisfying. But I think such tire bending modell should be also standard in modern rally games. CPU-Power could handle this 10 years ago.@@mrelwoodgames5971
I think more players feel the games aren't quite "Right" than the developers know. Devs need to watch this and make a SIM option available in the game.
Great points. All these big-time sim racing channels like Jardier and Jimmy B. push out content about this game, meanwhile this is the best video about WRC23. I finally realize what has bothered me about DR 2.0 all this time. Also bear in mind that Unreal 4 has often performance issues, and WRC23 footage has stutters. I'm not 100% convinced it will be fixed for release. Think how poorly ACC ran when it released. These devs have never worked with UE4 before, DR 2.0 used their own engine
@@nuztuz903 In one hand you have Reiza Studios, in the other hand you have EA sports, wich one will you drop? Put yourself in a influencer body for 5 seconds and tell me your answer xD
Thank you so much! Yeah, I guess they’ve just used all this time just to convert to the UE (and to add a stupendous amount of content). Not to improve the physics much. They did mention UE5 in an interview though.
@@MajorDook1 Also people need to get out of their ass and realize that when you're making a video game it needs to be playable on a controller... it needs to be as sim-like as possible while also being playable on the input method that 95% of the playerbase will be using... cause if this game sells 1mil copies, 950,000 of the players do not own a FFB wheel... and honestly this is why RBR is a joke of a video game... sure, it's simmy in some ways (not as sim as it's ridiculous stans pretend it is) but on the other hand when it came out it was a total flop compared to the Colin McRae series from Codies because RBR on a gamepad is a joke... it's unplayable... And to immerse yourself into rallying you need a sim-like title that plays well, is driveable, has great realistic graphics and it's easily enjoyable by everyone... Sorry but the most sim-like titles in the world (AC, ACC, iRacing, RFactor2 etc) have one thing in common... TINY PLAYERBASES... because outside of the people that own a pretty good or even really good wheel that costs a lot, nobody else can play it... You really think EA would put out a game like that??? Or any serious big time developer for that matter that has invested in getting the official license? Which ain't cheap by the way... there's a reason only big companies own official licenses... Anyway, the physics in my humble opinion, having watched lots of rallies on TV and also going to my first rally this year feel extremely realistic in terms of the twitchiness of the cars, the flow of the weight transfer and how the car behaves in terms of it's 4WD system gripping it to the road with the same power that real Rally 1 cars have... cause I can assure you that modern rally cars are stupidly grippy...
My guess, from a racing game developer perspective, is that CodeMaster carry the old arcade physics from original Colin McRae Rally back on the PS1, or maybe the Dirt game, then tune the "turning torque" parameter to make cars harder/easier to turn. From my experience making racing game, the "physics" in CodeMaster game you talked about is indeed used in many arcade racing games, since it is very performant to run and easier for the game designer, who may not have a lot of coding and engineering knowledge, to tune the car. Basically the car is a box, with a center of mass somewhere, and you only apply a torque to make it turn, and a force to push it away. However gaming hardware are powerful nowadays, so even arcade games are switching to the quarter car model, where they model tire grip on each of the wheel, and the torque to turn the car natually come out from the force calculation, making the car turns more realistically (somewhere around the rear axle instead of the pivot point)
Thankyou at last someone said it!!! I've said this for decades and no one believed me, That centre point physics model is the same one they've interrelated on since Colin McRae on the original PlayStation. It's so obvious to feel, and especially to see in replays. They've got away with it for this long and frustrates the hell out of me. It's no winder Richard Burn's is still the beacon because Codemasters haven't changed anything core for 2 decades.
THANK YOU! Pretty much addressed everything that looked off to me, including the suspensions and the tarmac physics which didn't really get improved as advertised, they just turned up the grip. Ironically the gravel physics also seem to be worse now because there's too much grip. They should've at least given tarmac and gravel different grip multipliers.
Awesome video, you explained the problem i couldnt even comprehend myself, i always thought i was the problem when actually its not my fault skiddling around in straights
I started playing EA WRC this morning (6hrs ago). Quick summary: I think there is a lot to be liked in this game. At least most of the physics make sense, but there are a few small things that I’m still unsure about. My fears didn’t come true, this is a significant upgrade over DR2.0. There are graphics issues with performance and a few other glitches. Intermittent low fps issues (on PS5) have bothered my driving a few times as well. I hope these will be sorted with updates. But lo and behold! There’s an adjustment for FoV! Exactly the thing I missed in DR and DR2.0. It is a significant help in making various systems feel good.
Finally someone explained and said what i feel about DR2 and EA WRC 23 in proper way. If i could give you 100 likes i would. I wish more people would see this video, all those people who say RBR is crap and DR2 and WRC 23 are super realistic and there is nothing wrong about the handling etc. I knew immediately from the first videos of EA WRC 23 that its the same problem as with DR2 and this video confirms it.
People seem to think that e.g. in drifting when you start sliding the "rear kicks out" when in reality the front moves out of the way but the rear doesn't follow since it doesn't have the same lateral grip available. It's amazing to see how different the sliding looks when you have a fluid chase cam (like in beamng or live for speed) and you move the camera focus point on the rear axle. Only then you can actually see what the car does since the camera is actually on the cars turning pivot point. The "why this cant be done" in games is probably due to everything going to shit when moving the pivot point since everything is coded with the assumption that the pivot point is in the center of mass or something.
Exactly this!!! “Front moves out of the way.” That’s exactly what should happen. In EA WRC I do feel that in tight corners the rear would follow approximately the way it should, with a tighter turn radius than the front until I hit the handbrake. So while there are some DR2.0 remnants in the handling, the issues that bug me the most in DR2.0 do not bother me here.
Fanstastic video. the dirt/new wrc game always loooked just so wrong in my eyes in terms of car's behaviour, but it was really hard to put into the words what's exactly wrong. Thank you for putting some light on it for me. Unfortunately nearly 20 years old RBR still seems to be the king of rally physics in games. unbeliavable.
i have tried to play many rally games over the years....but none of them come close to Richard Burns Rally physics. It's sad really....with todays technology they could make it so good.. RBR is almost 20 years old and still the best when it comes to physics
Or should we time it from when the modded physics entered the game? Or the most recent version of them? I’m not sure if the original physics would’ve been quite as amazing today.
How the hell did nobody adress that yet? All the time it said „Dirt physics are so much better than WRC“, so I just thought I can’t drive properly. Doesn’t nobody of the real test drivers noticing it or is it the elefant in the room nobody wants to talk about? Just for tarmac physics there were a few critical comments lately. You just enlighted my experience I couldn‘t explain like everyone else here, thank you very much!
Several people have commented that this is probably their way to make it more interesting and achievable to casual drivers. And I think they’re right. Because this is way too obvious for a high profile developer and a game franchise not to have ANYONE noticing the issue.
You nailed it. They know this and do it cause it makes it approachable, which equals to more sales, which means more exposure for WRC as a motorsport. I have no issues with that. What I have issues with is EA being adamant about calling it a simulation, which is false advertising. It just makes them look bad. Forza Horizon has never hid what it truly is, an open world arcade game. It's done with integrity and not coercive advertising tactics. It speaks to Codemaster's business ethics and for that reason I refuse to support them any longer. 238 subscribers yet 21K views...wow! People are obviously interested in hearing about this stuff. What do you have to say Codemasters?
The pivot point turning thing is a trademark of ALL rally games made by Codemasters. From Colin McRae Rally 1. It pains me to say that the previous WRC titles were better, at least in terms of physics.
Truth is you did "crumble my enthusiasm" a bit for this game because i was excited beyond reason for it but I can't argue with your logic. After many hours of DR2 (and of course many years of real driving) your points make total sense. Great video, the graphics and the calm slow (Finnish I assume?) speaking really helped deliver the message
Thanks! And I’m sorry! But even if there were some remains of the DR2.0 handling, based on what the demo version reviews say it has a good driving feel. Don’t let your hopes down completely! I should have a physics first impression review out in a week. And yes, Finnish. It’s that obvious, huh? 😂
@@mrelwoodgames5971 Haha no worries. For better or for worse I have gotten used to this "DR2 car behavior" and I have a lot of fun so the new game should still be great for me. Of course, I would prefer it if things were more like how they were supposed to be as you describe in your video. As for the accent, I follow the channel pongfinity with 3 Finnish guys speaking and of course listen to our champion Kalle whenever I get the chance so yes it is quite obvious, but I like it! It gives English some nice clear pronunciation :D
I always felt like dirt's tarmac physics were terrible, which... I used to enjoy codies' toca games, so I know they can do tarmac physics... This makes a ton of sense. So far, the only game that can compete with rbr for rally physics is....... Beamng. Shocker, but driving there feels right. The amount of danger present in your driving makes the pace you drive at more realistic and the interactions with bumps and obstacles are way more realistic, because it's not a driving game, but a physics simulator.
Hopes are completely dashed. 😄 They were high but as soon as I seen the tarmac footage and then some early access gameplay. I knew it hadn't been rectified, some channels were dancing around the tarmac elephant in the room. Now that you have also pointed out the handling pivot point thing I won't stop thinking about it while I'm playing it constantly for the next year.
Ea/codemasters what is your official response to this analysis video? 😂 I'm here to offer nothing and 100% to watch the paid "reviewers" and fan boys power throat eachother and defend this multi billion dollar corporation who thinks pushing gambling in the form of loot boxes to children and adults
I remember dirt 4 came out and everyone complained the cars were understeering like crazy. Perhaps they did indeed do what you propose in dirt 4 and decided to go back to a central pivot to avoid all the negative feedback...
Interestingly, I really liked Dirt 4. 😂 But I don’t think it’s about whether the car understeers or oversteers. It’s about what the game considers oversteering, or losing grip.
well i think the understeering was perceived by the public as a 'problem' and IIRC the devs came out and said something to the tune of 'well this is how rally cars actually handle and the cars don't slide quite as much as you maybe want them to'. @@mrelwoodgames5971
What is weird about this is that center pivot is an ancient tech while the dirt rally games do have to simulate all four tires to get decent handling and feedback. They just then go back and apply said simulation to a pivot. This feels like they are failing on the last hurdle. Coming from track racing sims where pivot would be laughed out the building makes this maddening but it is probably a side effect of the dirt series being mostly arcade titles and the dirt rally series starting out as a passion side project.
Great video! The only point i would disagree with is suspension. Modern rally suspension is so good, that it really does absorb huge jumps in just one move. You can watch any modern wrc jump compilation and you'll see it. Apart from this everything is great :)
Yeah, their suspension is wild, but there should be at least some rebound after high jumps, I think. Also, the load is transferred once the car continues to accelerate after landing. Zero travel just seems a bit odd)
This video really broke my brain, I just got the EA wrc 2023 and Im seeing only how it not behaves like a real car. Great video, I think youre Finnish like myself.
There are more problems with the Dirt physics. It seems that you control the rotation of the car directly, rather than the wheels pushing the car and the friction of the front wheels changing the cars direction. You can steer wildly from left to right, with the car pointing to the left side, and then turn almost 180 degrees to the right side, still sliding along the track. You can go back and forth like that very fast. It becomes very noticable when you lower the force feedback. A real car would loose grip and spin out of control, but in Dirt, your input just rotates the car easily. If you oversteer in a corner, you can steer aggressively to correct it in a very unrealistic way.
This really explains a DR2.0 effect that has always bothered me. I call it the "Ditch of doom" where once you get the car too close to the ditch, you're screwed. Exactly as you demonstrated, steering away from the ditch is actually impossible.
Having never driven a real car like that at that pace, I have always assumed this is just what they do. Given the forward momentum at a high speed, you just can't steer your way away from a ditch. Apparently, that's not the case(?)
That's what makes the game fun though 😉
Also, I have seen that viral video of irl car stuck in the ditch and trying to get out while driving quite a long distance, still unable to get out. So it can happen irl.
Wall is one thing, a ditch is a whole another. A car really is a PITA to get out of a ditch, at speed or not. This rear wheel steering can get you in the ditch easier though.
@@pooroldnostradamus Depends a lot if it's on the inside or not. The inside tires are less loaded due to lateral load transfer, with the front typically being 0 load in acceleration. It might just float over with little effect apart from suspension compression.
thing is, even if the car would rotate around the rear axle like in real life, the very end of the car (whatever hangs over behind the rear wheel) would still be steered against the wall, countering the rotation. Simply the effect would be less pronounced,
Even after 500+ hours of DiRT Rally 2.0, I've never questioned as to why the turning was so odd, it's just something that I've adapted to overtime and was like: Yeah, game physics be game physics. Then I've watched the official gameplay reveal and some other early access videos for WRC and immediately realized that something was off, like I'm watching a repeat of the same handling model.
This video has been a huge eye opener and I thank you for that.
yeah, me too
Really great analysis. I was not able to put into words what was wrong with the DR2 physics especially at high speeds. I always found it impossible to control cars when speeds would go up. Only after trying RBR I realized how intuitive car control could be especially on gravel. I still crash a lot, but in RBR it always feels good and you know what you did wrong. :)
Except the fact rbr is a relic that needs 3 billion mods to work, and you're expected to have spent a mortgage pay on a sim rig
@@thelazywanderer_jt dirt aint no better lmao, you pay 60$ for wacky physics and a week of content
@@thelazywanderer_jt yea, it needs a bit of fiddling around, but RallySimFans currently have really great distribution. It is actually a single installer which installs everything needed to go rallying.
@@thelazywanderer_jt Why would a simulator work well with anything but simulation controls? You wouldn't really be able to drive a real car with a gamepad anyway. Most sim controllers are barely up to the task to begin with.
RBR needs just one plugin installer to be up to date, it's not that hard even for zoomers, mostly option tickboxes.
@@thelazywanderer_jt Yes, RBR is. But nobody plays "RBR" anymore. These days we play a RBR/NGP (!) distribution created by the RSF community. The last thing is completely wrong as well - being fast in simracing is not about hardware, but about skills. RBR is no different. I have world records done with keyboard.
I always wondered why these games felt so odd, and now I know. A very well put together post and very well explained. Thank you.
BeamNG feels way better
I've never realised this, but after pointing this pivot point thing out it just seems like a scam. they're trying to mimic a "feel" instead of just simulating the real thing.
I’ve been screaming about it for years. The game is undrivable. How the hell is anyone saying it’s s good game?!
@@CobraAce04exactly bruh
Its always been like this its really noticeable when driving in erd person
I don't have a problem with it honestly. The chances of getting a real rally sim are slim to none
@@mg-by7uu BeamNG, RBR and Assetto (for tarmac) exists
I think codemasters should review this video. This is important information for the rally game enthusiast. And the point you made about the back end hitting the wall while trying to escape it is so freaking true. I remember being a beginner at DR2.0 and asking "why the hell cant I drive away from a friggin wall?!?!" 😂
Seriously though, they should fix the pivot point for simulation mode or something. Back tires just don't slide at normal driving speeds
You think they dont know it?
They do they are not going for it if they are be prepared for many version like f1. Like fifa only until 23 they had more advance feature left out of previous version.
They probably do, it’s just that their decision to go with it (still) is mind boggling. An option for arcade vs sim would solve the issue for so many gamers.
Oh they do know. They know it for more than 25 years.
@@mrelwoodgames5971 more money they are calculating. But the game hardly is a sim anyway.
It's not unusual this is how they do things with their games. I see very clear marker what they plan. I can tell you About it but if your family with ea you would know this already.
this dude deserves way more recognition for the amount of effort put into this video
Thank you!! We’ll see how the channel grows once I make an actual physics review after getting the game 3 days before launch. 😊
@@mrelwoodgames5971we need a fundraiser for the money that will be sacrificed
yes please!@@mrelwoodgames5971
i loved it too, but let's be fair his format is not for everyone. what about a 1min bullet point style overview of the key conclusions at the beginning of the video. that might help grab more people's attention.
@@-IE_it_yourself I’m definitely open to ideas and constructive criticism, and yours definitely does sound like a good idea! Expect to see my take on it on the next one… Cheers!
I work at an actual rally school and we determined students who play Dirt Rally have developed some bad habits which is tough to unteach and this video makes so much sense to me. We found the WRC series has more realistic physics than Dirt, although I can’t explain it in such a great technical way. Essentially the way the car rotated while being under throttle and left foot braking was some realistic in WRC10, whereas Dirt required you to lift, and then we had to untrain the lifting problem. Great work.
That's amazing, what game do you recommend the most?
@@Cape18 richard burns rally probably...
Could dirt rally 2 teach you though about real life rally?
You can use real-life techniques to be better at Dirt Rally 2.0. You cannot use Dirt Rally 2.0 to accurately learn real-world techniques without some foundation in real-world technique and application. @@ΙάσωναςΠαπαδόπουλος
Wow! That’s amazing to have you here, and that you feel that way about my theory! What you say makes a whole lot of sense. After hearing that about WRC 10 I might have to launch it again, no matter how much I hated the game…
You described exactly what i couldn't put into words about the handling. Going back to Dirt 2.0 after not playing for a while really made me notice it even more. I'm still looking forward to the game but sort of frustrated because i know it could be so much better.
I tend to trust Jimmy Broadbent’s comments, and he said that while EA WRC still isn’t a true sim, it’s much improved on the DR2.0 and a heck of a fun drive. After all, I’ve got hundreds of hours of DR2.0 under my belt despite this issue. I have no doubt that I’ll be driving the EA WRC a whole lot as well!
I also try to remember that while the visuals may look bad and wrong, the actual handling that can be felt while driving in dashboard or bonnet view may actually be much better. There still was some twitchiness that shouldn’t be there, but hopefully it’s something I can get by with.
@@mrelwoodgames5971 I really dont understand why jimmy seems to love this game and dirt rally while criticizing the wrc series so much? I mean he made ONE video on wrc generations, but has already pumped out several on ea wrc 23. Both of the games have unrealistic physics, at least wrc generations has proper stages
@@Nerderkips i think ea wrc also has proper stages, and wouldnt you make a few vids on a game you'd get a preview copy of?
@@Nerderkips I think the weird accelerator thing put a lot of people off as it felt kind of strange on hairpins. But yes the stages were awesome. If that had a VR mode, i would have probably played it much more.
It is a shame really! the game is good, but the way the cars corner, spot on, never thought that! If you play RF2 is very difficult to like to drive in DR2, i think DR1 was better in that regard. RF2 have some old mods (rally tracks and rally cars) that behave what i could call realistic. or what i think is realistic, never driven a rally car, but have driven miles and miles off road with my Pajero in every type of terrain.
FINALLY! This video put into words EXACTLY what ive always subconsciously felt when playing dirt rally 1 and 2. Its nice to see a video finally talk about the physics in a factual way instead of every other sim racing youtuber saying "ea told me its better in the review notes, so I think the physics are improved."
Both things can be true at the same time... 1) physics improved in new game, 2) neither DR/WRC have realistic physics.
i've always played DR2.0 with cockpit camera and never noticed the effect you analyse, but i've always felt that the car feels exagerately "light" on the rear axis and now I have an explanation about this impression. Making a 360 spin at relatively slow speeds shouldn't be as frequent as it is in DR2.0. Looking at WRC gameplays I agree it looks like the physics hasn't changed so much so i'm a bit disappointed too but it also looks like they added a little bit of "weight" on the rear axis, so that the feeling might be equally not very realistic but probabily, all things considered, nice and funny to play
The whole pivoting on the rear wheels is exactly why people don’t understand how to parallel park. Once you steer with the back wheels as your pivot point you can easily figure out how to parallel park. It also works when you are backing up with a trailer. Knowing where your pivot axles are at crucial to backing up with a trailer.
Very nice pointers out from real life, nicely done! You are 100% correct!
Holy moly you are exactly what sim racing scene needs mate. Keep doing these physics analysis. This is really interesting.
Wow, thanks!!
@@mrelwoodgames5971your the 2nd person mentioning this. 99% all hype and bias saying how real the game is.
You just made the solid case of ditching this game. It's not appealing anymore that they did not change it to make it more real. Contradicting what they said on it being more real.😑🙄
Let’s see first how my review on the actual game condemns the behavior. 😉
@@mrelwoodgames5971 the problem is most dont care only those that care will be real rally driver not horizon fan that many will be playing.
I tired to raise the issue everyone told me to go cry in a corner and get lost.
I appreciate alot your review horizon fan just don't care.😟
But I do want to know more as that can help other developer not make the same mistake.
Your insights about the handling/pivoting problems are nothing short of profound. You're 100% right on the money. I never realized it, but it's clear as day now.
The pivot point was always my issue with the original Colin McRae games. Nothing has changed. It’s still codies
lol
Yup, I've played the original five McRae games back in the day and they all had this same issue. Constant four wheel drift.
CMR2 speedrunners only use the keyboard, because its faster to control the pivot with binary input.
@@ValiantValium I’m going back to the good old PS1 days my friend. Controller D pad
I don't know how to express my gratitude to you for creating this video. Many people have praised the realism of the physics in DiRT Rally 1.0 and 2.0, but I have never agreed, and I always found it difficult to explain the discomfort I felt to them. (Already played nearly 1,000 hours each though. It is a good game.)
Now, by sharing your video, it has become much easier for me to explain, and my mental stress has been greatly relieved. Even when I tried to explain the discomfort I always felt from these games while participating in many car races, I only received frustrating responses like, "You're just an amateur racer, what do you know?"
I thank you once again.
Wow… that’s really nice to hear!! I’m really glad you found this video so helpful. Cheers!
Wow, that's an amazing video. Great explanation of the whole pivot-point thing, and how the rear-end of the car turns more than the front-end. This explains everything, now I understand why it's literally impossible to drive away from a ditch or a wall, despite my best efforts, and why in general, the game feels very unnatural at times. Thank you for this!
I pointed out in Reddit the wrong pivot point shown in the gameplay and got down voted like crazy. I have no problem with the new WRC being more in the arcade side. In fact, DR2 is my most played rally game and I will likely buy WRC, but the fanboys of reddit negating the evidence baffles me
Anything negative about something they like is an instant downvote.
Thank you for your in-depth analysis on the physics of DR2 and how it's going to be the same for WRC 23. I always wondered why DR2 was awful when driving on tarmac and now I know.
That’s the best take I’ve heard all day, “Dirt rally 2.1”. Thanku for your very real input
So THIS is why pavement has always felt so scary no matter what im driving :0 Im very sad to see the DR2 successor will still have the same problem. Very good video!
this is amazing. i wasnt expecting this quality of explanation from a small channel. im amazed
Thanks! I just started making these videos on gaming. Thought that you guys might need a little more thought out content. 😜
As many have said before, you've just put into words what I felt and couldn't explain.
Subscribing right away!
Man, that rear steering explains so much lol. I always got mad thinking "There's no fking way the back of my car would have hit that" and now I know why.
This actually makes me feel dumb. When i watch you demonstrate it, it seems so damn obvious but i never really figured it out before.
The thing you mentioned about not being able to get off of a wall you rub against was so familiar. I always found it weird how some sims had that problem but others dont. I remember it especially driving me insane in project cars 1 and 2.
Now i understand. Thank you!
Really hoping codemasters sees this
And to me this is concrete proof that richard burns rally is still the best rally sim ever. Frankly i think maybe even sebastian loeb rally evo might be better than dirt rally too (it always was on tarmac physics) because i certainly dont remember this 4 wheel steering effect. I could be wrong tho. I always thought that sim was underrated
Thank you so much for making this. Amazing explanation!
Man thanks for explaining this. I could never understand why it was so hard to get away from a wall in 2.0! And I noticed the slipping at low speeds. There’s really no way to drive a car normally at low speeds in 2.0.
I would say that it reaches fast speeds as well, since the phenomena gets even stronger at speed. The fast Spain tracks on DR2.0 are specifically pretty bad because of this.
Yes, I was so mesmerized how I was hitting the walls with the back of the car in 2.0 when I was near them and was trying to move away. lol now it makes sense
Same. Finally explained why I dread Sweden snow banks since dirt rally 1. When steering away from the bank the cars still always turn back into it, very counter intuitive. Wrcg feels better with the fact that snow banks are soft and cars can ride on them
@@mrelwoodgames5971 Yeah high speeds the slightest correction and the back end just flies off and tries to overtake you at lightspeed.
You can argue that tire slip happens at inappropriate speeds in DR 2.0 but none of these videos show any unusual pivot point. If you watch carefully none of those turning demos
have the rear wheels actually moving sideways at all. I went in and experimented carefully watching the road textures. This turning from the center business is pure myth. It doesn't happen in this game or likely any other game from Codemasters or otherwise. In real life, when you turn a car any part of the car behind the rear axle swings out. This is a short distance in most cars but if you are right near an obstruction your rear end will hit it if you try to turn away. I dented a car like this in a parking lot when I was young. This would further be exacerbated by the wall curving in as you try to move forward. You can even see in the footage he shows here how the car hits in the rear and that is what bounces back from the wall.
you really opened my eyes why tarmac felt off, thanks!
When i first saw that teaser video from EA I knew theres something off with the physic, but I didnt know why. Thanks for this deep analysis of the physic in new WRC game!
I said it once - I'll say it in a decade: RBR will still be the king of all rally sims. Especially after the release of the new WRC game.
Incredible work with the demo, such a clear explanation for something that bugged me in DR2. After a while I've internalized the "stuck to the edges" behavior to the point that I actually counter steer in anticipation before I swipe an edge with the rear so I dont swing the rear further into the edge lol.
Always wondered what I was having a conflict with while playing all the Dirt series games.... now super clear and totally appreciate this analysis.... nice work!
EA devs: ah…just use the same physics as before, they’ll never notice…
Wow, super analysis and makes a lot of sense. I actually noticed the low speed turning drift as well.
Great analysis. 👏🏻 Exactly my thoughts when i saw the gameplay videos. Shame they‘re still sticking to their centre pivot physics after all these years.
This is what I call the "office chair" effect.
Is there a specific aspect you think that that applies to? Or do you think that my analysis is bad?
@mrelwoodgames5971 that's what I call this type of car handling.
This needs more attention
Thank you. That is an important clarification. Only if we understand and criticize properly, developers will change it.
100% with you on this. First thing I try in any driving game/sim is drive slowly in a circle to see whether any thought has been given to 'real' behaviour of the rear tyres - almost always disappointed. Like you will definitely get this game at some point but damn it's frustrating that those of us who notice/care about realistic physics get no consideration. Surely there's a market there?
I think there is a market for any game that is good ..
It's not about simple - or hard either just look at " dark souls " and 35 million units sold ..
- It really is time for a " RBR " killer with some budget and realism ..
If the handling really does work based on a "pivot point", it's inexcusable as that's just not how car physics are made in general. If the physics engine rotates the vehicle in any way other than applying (lateral) friction forces at the tire contact points, it is incompetence by the developers plain and simple.
Also, the fact that this has been a problem for 8 years now, and has not been the case in the old Dirt titles (3 and prior) is astounding.
Exactly!
Oh it is present in all. codemasters games. Dirt1 juat has so much grip that it doesnt really manifest so much. Same was in DR1, prior to aero update. Cars stuck to the road and it wasnt noticeable.
Wow good analysis. Once you see it you can’t unsee it 😮 especially in chase cam.
One of the best analysis of anytnihg :). Great job and great advices
Thanks! Glad you think so!
It's actually kind of "amazing", that they get the physics that they do, with a wrong underlying mechanism like this. It seems strange, that they try everything to "fix it away", because honestly, there's a lot that's right and more realistic than in the older games. But still, there's this problem. Why do they do it like that?
Because, they really did improve physics in this game as far as I can tell. I've seen dozens of videos from different cars on different surfaces. The modern Rally cars feel kinda "strange" to many people, because they have so much grip, but as far as I can tell from my research, that's how the modern Rally cars handle. If you select an older car, then you get a completely different handling again. Yes, even understeering, or oversteering, it's there.
It's just mind-boggling, how they refuse to fix the underlying mechanism. Because if they did, it would be amazing, since we see that apart from that, they're committed to support all kinds of handlings as accurate as possible.
And that's the strange thing. Apart from that, they try to fix everything away. But why the effort? Why not fix the fundamental mechanic?
Wow underated man, great analysis and great understandable explonation 100/10
Just the type of excellence I was expecting from a Finnish brother. Straight to the point without any bs. What a wonderful video!
Thanks Jaakko! Indeed, we Finns don’t do bs!
Finnish people are cool
I think it's the chase camera that is giving the illusion that the car is pivoting on it's center. I tried doing 3 point turns with a RWD and 4WD on tarmac, watched the replay and saw the car pivot on it's rear. Don't forget that 4WD cars turns differently at speed due to having powered front wheels which means if the car turns hard the rear will step out but due to it being 4WD it won't keep spinning like a RWD would.
The camera movement is there that’s true but if you do a little testing and pay attention to the rear wheels you’ll see he’s right. It’s easiest to experience this at the Dirtfish playground.
@@malawander3000 Cars will behave differently at different speeds and traction levels. In a perfect world with infinite grip, a car will always pivot on it's rear. RWD cars drifting pivots from the front. FWD and 4WD has powered front wheels which means they CAN pivot on their center with the right speed and grip.
@@Loshirai14 I see what you’re getting at but the problem is you can drive very slowly and the rear wheels slide out no matter what. They literally slide across the surface because they aren’t simulating the behavior of a real wheel.
@@malawander3000 I literally did 3 point turns and some slow u-turns, watched the replay with helicopter camera and the car pivots from the rear like a normal car.
Sure, it does that below 10km/h. But drive a circle at 30km/h and check again. The rear tires follow the front tire tracks perfectly.
This last summer I started taking my recently acquired Miata NC to autocross events. One of the first things I learned is that cars pivot on the rear which helped me in getting through cones more efficiently without hitting them. Not sure how to explain, more or less by trying to hit the cones with the rear of the car.
I genuinely feel much more confident driving by curbs now because of that 😆. It also highlights to me how accurate your explanation is.
I've always felt the reason a lot of people curb their rear rims is because they don't understand or realize that their vehicle pivots around the rear axle. This game would probably make sense to them.
Thanks for the great explanation: I know that it didnt feel right, but couldnt figure out why this is.
RBR for realistic driving feel and after a few crashes you can just "relax " in EA WRC SimCade xD
Finally someone that addresses the "Elephant in the Room" !!
Great Video Mate!!
Thanks man! And your assumption is probably very correct. 😁
WRC Generations doesn't have this problem. That game is not perfect but I am not sure if i'll be able to stomach this handling change
preach it, brother! have always felt that the cars in racing sims would pivot differently depending on your view. for instance, there was a small difference in how the car "handled" (turned) when using a dashcam view vs a cockpit view. and now your visuals detailing how this impacts the rear wheels is very enlightening. thanks so much.
Wauwww, this really makes sense now. That is the reason I always enjoyed gravel stages more instead of tarmac in DR2.0.
I’m sure that everyone agrees with you! The tarmac in DR2.0 emphasizes the issue to a depressing degree.
I needed video like this and if someone is comparing to RBR that means he know something about physics
Fantastic breakdown about the pivot point feeling, kudos
Wow, finally words to what I've been feeling in the last 20 years since RBR
The pivot point in the center of the car was exactly my main problem with Dirt 2.0 and I also noticed immediately on videos that EA WRC seems to behave the same way. Very interesting to see the exact same analysis in a UA-cam video. Because even though I was always convinced about this weirdness, since nobody else really talked about it I thought maybe it’s just me being a bit overanalytical. But now I’m happy to see that others actually see the problem too, it’s not just me going crazy 😊. I really believe that the WRC Generations game got this aspect of the handling much more right.
However, im the same as you, I will also buy the EA game anyway because there seems to be enough other advantages and positives to look forward to and have fun with.
I don’t know if WRC Gen was improved over WRC 10, but the latter had some really strange issues with it’s turning. Not necessarily the same pivot point one, but something really peculiar. I hated it so much that I couldn’t get myself to play it for more than a few runs. Besides, the sounds sucked real bad compared to DR2.0. 40€ totally wasted on that one.
@@mrelwoodgames5971 I think WRC Gen was a big improvement over WRC 10 in the handling, especially regarding the weight of the cars which was much increased. With that said, Im not saying WRC Gen was necessarily great in all departments. But I did/do enjoy the car handling model for sure.
Good to know. Somehow I’m still not going to pay a cent to try it out…
@@Utube2Itube No VR.....😁 no play...
@@Utube2Itube i mean sure if by big improvement you mean broken rushed mess. they never even managed to fix the throttle bug . and they somehow managed to make gravel fell like you are driving on soap. literally only good thing about generations is tarmac and stage design thats it.
I agree and thanks for the analysis of the most important part of this. Exactly what I was looking for. EA/Codemasters need to see your analysis and be convinced.
yikes! thats why tarmac in dr2 never felt like tarmac...more like gravel with more grip
You have just explained in the most simple way what's wrong with all these games post RBR. If they listened to you in this video then, I believe you have unlocked the key for the success of the games and a simple update to fix them. Well Done Sir !!!!
Thanks! Yeah, I know it’s not as simple as that. But that’s definitely where they should start from.
Because RBR is the only game ever to not use pivot point steering? The point of the video was to show that Codemasters game use this.
It would not be a "simple update" but a rewrite of the whole car kinetic model and probably implementation of an actual tire model, which for a typical dev isn't even a matter of time, but just impossible.
Yes I think that is where the problem really is. We all understand what is wrong, I suspect the Codemasters dose as well, but in reality making your solution a reality is probably more difficult than any of us here understand. @@mrelwoodgames5971
It's not some mistake to fix, devs must have reasons why they decided the game will use such physics model.
I'm sure it's probably difficult to create a simulator like RBR, but it's not a question of difficulty, but of will. The simplified driving model refers to what we are now accustomed to in the gaming industry: accessibility. If WRC 23 was as simulative as or more than RBR, 10% of people would appreciate it (myself included) for the physics and driving feeling, but the rest would say "Dude, it's too difficult, I don't even have a steering wheel, I'll buy something else"
That is probably true. Which is why there needs to be a switch for legacy arcade mode and a precise sim model. Like they have in Mafia 3. My guess is that until EA WRC gets a competitor with better physics, there’s nothing to push them towards the sim side of racing.
I don't think that's the case if they also invest in gamepad friendly controls and assists. Gran turismo seem to handle pretty well in both tarmac and gravel and the intuitive controls still help you counteract well enough
I don´t think so.. i had friends that never played a game(54 years old), much less a simulator. So, some of them that tried RF2 DR2 F1 23 and AC, in the same day, for hours at my home, could only drive RF2 without an accident or going out in the first corner, all the others games, the most difficult was DR2, then F1 23 and the others more or less.
@@pedroferrr1412 They probably exist, and I agree with you, but we are talking about a minority.
The target of these games are people who are passionate about rallies, who want to spend an evening in peace and without too much hassle, a sort of casual gamer, but not so casual.
The aim is to get as many players as possible.
And thinking about it when I started to get curious about rallies, I didn't think about RBR (I didn't even know it) but about DiRT Rally. And in fact, they succeeded with me, and now I have become more demanding. So demanding, that unfortunately, despite being an improvement over DR 2.0, I feel off target, because unfortunately for me the driving feeling is EVERYTHING.
But hey, I started from DiRT Rally too, right?
I think a real sim model with just more lenient parameters can be very accessible, if not more accessible as long as the gamepad script is good. It's just that nobody knows how to develop good sim models, even among the consumer sim developers.
There is another simulation-degree test for a racing game:
When the car stands completely still and you move your steering-wheel completely right or left (which moves respectively steers the front tires), the car moves marginal sidewards at the front, if higher simulations-degree.
I only know RBR or RFactor2, which passes this test positive. I never played IRacing.
Wow, that’s going pretty freakin’ far! I had no idea RBR does this! Though I do wonder if it’s because of such precise modeling or something else.
I think its a more precise modelling, than a script to fake higher simulation.
As I interprete the telemetry data of RBR, the circulating area of a tire is divided in 7 parts. That means this 7 parts always change (from 1 to 7, with again beginning with part 1 after full rotate), when the tire circulates.
I don't know if original RBR passes the described stand-still-test (but RBR-NGP has a lot tire-physics added). But I would rather play the original RBR game, than newer Arcademasters games.
@@mrelwoodgames5971
Do you know the tire bending model in RFactor2?
ua-cam.com/video/5H2zGGUdfrA/v-deo.html@@mrelwoodgames5971
I’m not into track racing, so I haven’t followed that scene at all.
Understandable. Gravel-driving can be very satisfying.
But I think such tire bending modell should be also standard in modern rally games. CPU-Power could handle this 10 years ago.@@mrelwoodgames5971
This is the best car game review video I've ever seen
I think more players feel the games aren't quite "Right" than the developers know. Devs need to watch this and make a SIM option available in the game.
This explain pretty much the main issue with this game. Couldnt explain it but we all felt the same problem and play it anyways.
Great points. All these big-time sim racing channels like Jardier and Jimmy B. push out content about this game, meanwhile this is the best video about WRC23. I finally realize what has bothered me about DR 2.0 all this time. Also bear in mind that Unreal 4 has often performance issues, and WRC23 footage has stutters. I'm not 100% convinced it will be fixed for release. Think how poorly ACC ran when it released. These devs have never worked with UE4 before, DR 2.0 used their own engine
People Luke Jardier and Jimmy B don't want to say anything too bad or give any real analysis because they don't want to upset the makers of the games.
@@MajorDook1 I don't think that's holding jimmy back after his comments on ams2
@@nuztuz903 In one hand you have Reiza Studios, in the other hand you have EA sports, wich one will you drop? Put yourself in a influencer body for 5 seconds and tell me your answer xD
Thank you so much! Yeah, I guess they’ve just used all this time just to convert to the UE (and to add a stupendous amount of content). Not to improve the physics much. They did mention UE5 in an interview though.
@@MajorDook1 Also people need to get out of their ass and realize that when you're making a video game it needs to be playable on a controller... it needs to be as sim-like as possible while also being playable on the input method that 95% of the playerbase will be using... cause if this game sells 1mil copies, 950,000 of the players do not own a FFB wheel... and honestly this is why RBR is a joke of a video game... sure, it's simmy in some ways (not as sim as it's ridiculous stans pretend it is) but on the other hand when it came out it was a total flop compared to the Colin McRae series from Codies because RBR on a gamepad is a joke... it's unplayable...
And to immerse yourself into rallying you need a sim-like title that plays well, is driveable, has great realistic graphics and it's easily enjoyable by everyone...
Sorry but the most sim-like titles in the world (AC, ACC, iRacing, RFactor2 etc) have one thing in common... TINY PLAYERBASES... because outside of the people that own a pretty good or even really good wheel that costs a lot, nobody else can play it...
You really think EA would put out a game like that??? Or any serious big time developer for that matter that has invested in getting the official license? Which ain't cheap by the way... there's a reason only big companies own official licenses...
Anyway, the physics in my humble opinion, having watched lots of rallies on TV and also going to my first rally this year feel extremely realistic in terms of the twitchiness of the cars, the flow of the weight transfer and how the car behaves in terms of it's 4WD system gripping it to the road with the same power that real Rally 1 cars have... cause I can assure you that modern rally cars are stupidly grippy...
Omg, never noticed it. I just preorder and Im sure I will enjoy the game a lot, but al the thing you pointed out... Amazing.
My guess, from a racing game developer perspective, is that CodeMaster carry the old arcade physics from original Colin McRae Rally back on the PS1, or maybe the Dirt game, then tune the "turning torque" parameter to make cars harder/easier to turn.
From my experience making racing game, the "physics" in CodeMaster game you talked about is indeed used in many arcade racing games, since it is very performant to run and easier for the game designer, who may not have a lot of coding and engineering knowledge, to tune the car. Basically the car is a box, with a center of mass somewhere, and you only apply a torque to make it turn, and a force to push it away.
However gaming hardware are powerful nowadays, so even arcade games are switching to the quarter car model, where they model tire grip on each of the wheel, and the torque to turn the car natually come out from the force calculation, making the car turns more realistically (somewhere around the rear axle instead of the pivot point)
20 years old RBR has way more sophisticated physics, so it's really not about the performance.
Thankyou at last someone said it!!! I've said this for decades and no one believed me, That centre point physics model is the same one they've interrelated on since Colin McRae on the original PlayStation. It's so obvious to feel, and especially to see in replays. They've got away with it for this long and frustrates the hell out of me. It's no winder Richard Burn's is still the beacon because Codemasters haven't changed anything core for 2 decades.
THANK YOU! Pretty much addressed everything that looked off to me, including the suspensions and the tarmac physics which didn't really get improved as advertised, they just turned up the grip. Ironically the gravel physics also seem to be worse now because there's too much grip. They should've at least given tarmac and gravel different grip multipliers.
Awesome video, you explained the problem i couldnt even comprehend myself, i always thought i was the problem when actually its not my fault skiddling around in straights
I started playing EA WRC this morning (6hrs ago). Quick summary:
I think there is a lot to be liked in this game. At least most of the physics make sense, but there are a few small things that I’m still unsure about. My fears didn’t come true, this is a significant upgrade over DR2.0.
There are graphics issues with performance and a few other glitches. Intermittent low fps issues (on PS5) have bothered my driving a few times as well. I hope these will be sorted with updates.
But lo and behold! There’s an adjustment for FoV! Exactly the thing I missed in DR and DR2.0. It is a significant help in making various systems feel good.
I think you spoke too soon with your 'physics analysis''
@@portableportal I did, the reality turned out to be different than the early clips looked like.
Great video and explanation. I learned a lot from watching this. I wouldn’t have been able to explain why it feels like it’s gliding. Gracias.
Finally someone explained and said what i feel about DR2 and EA WRC 23 in proper way. If i could give you 100 likes i would. I wish more people would see this video, all those people who say RBR is crap and DR2 and WRC 23 are super realistic and there is nothing wrong about the handling etc. I knew immediately from the first videos of EA WRC 23 that its the same problem as with DR2 and this video confirms it.
People seem to think that e.g. in drifting when you start sliding the "rear kicks out" when in reality the front moves out of the way but the rear doesn't follow since it doesn't have the same lateral grip available.
It's amazing to see how different the sliding looks when you have a fluid chase cam (like in beamng or live for speed) and you move the camera focus point on the rear axle. Only then you can actually see what the car does since the camera is actually on the cars turning pivot point.
The "why this cant be done" in games is probably due to everything going to shit when moving the pivot point since everything is coded with the assumption that the pivot point is in the center of mass or something.
Exactly this!!! “Front moves out of the way.” That’s exactly what should happen.
In EA WRC I do feel that in tight corners the rear would follow approximately the way it should, with a tighter turn radius than the front until I hit the handbrake. So while there are some DR2.0 remnants in the handling, the issues that bug me the most in DR2.0 do not bother me here.
You've confirmed what I noticed from the wrc trailer. I thought it still looked off
Fanstastic video. the dirt/new wrc game always loooked just so wrong in my eyes in terms of car's behaviour, but it was really hard to put into the words what's exactly wrong. Thank you for putting some light on it for me.
Unfortunately nearly 20 years old RBR still seems to be the king of rally physics in games. unbeliavable.
i have tried to play many rally games over the years....but none of them come close to Richard Burns Rally physics. It's sad really....with todays technology they could make it so good..
RBR is almost 20 years old and still the best when it comes to physics
Or should we time it from when the modded physics entered the game? Or the most recent version of them? I’m not sure if the original physics would’ve been quite as amazing today.
How the hell did nobody adress that yet? All the time it said „Dirt physics are so much better than WRC“, so I just thought I can’t drive properly. Doesn’t nobody of the real test drivers noticing it or is it the elefant in the room nobody wants to talk about? Just for tarmac physics there were a few critical comments lately.
You just enlighted my experience I couldn‘t explain like everyone else here, thank you very much!
Several people have commented that this is probably their way to make it more interesting and achievable to casual drivers. And I think they’re right. Because this is way too obvious for a high profile developer and a game franchise not to have ANYONE noticing the issue.
You nailed it. They know this and do it cause it makes it approachable, which equals to more sales, which means more exposure for WRC as a motorsport. I have no issues with that. What I have issues with is EA being adamant about calling it a simulation, which is false advertising. It just makes them look bad. Forza Horizon has never hid what it truly is, an open world arcade game. It's done with integrity and not coercive advertising tactics. It speaks to Codemaster's business ethics and for that reason I refuse to support them any longer. 238 subscribers yet 21K views...wow! People are obviously interested in hearing about this stuff. What do you have to say Codemasters?
This was an awesome explanation, thank you!
The pivot point turning thing is a trademark of ALL rally games made by Codemasters. From Colin McRae Rally 1. It pains me to say that the previous WRC titles were better, at least in terms of physics.
Yeah and in my case (not looking for realism) the slidey experience feels very enjoyable.
Truth is you did "crumble my enthusiasm" a bit for this game because i was excited beyond reason for it but I can't argue with your logic. After many hours of DR2 (and of course many years of real driving) your points make total sense. Great video, the graphics and the calm slow (Finnish I assume?) speaking really helped deliver the message
Thanks! And I’m sorry! But even if there were some remains of the DR2.0 handling, based on what the demo version reviews say it has a good driving feel. Don’t let your hopes down completely! I should have a physics first impression review out in a week.
And yes, Finnish. It’s that obvious, huh? 😂
@@mrelwoodgames5971 Haha no worries. For better or for worse I have gotten used to this "DR2 car behavior" and I have a lot of fun so the new game should still be great for me. Of course, I would prefer it if things were more like how they were supposed to be as you describe in your video.
As for the accent, I follow the channel pongfinity with 3 Finnish guys speaking and of course listen to our champion Kalle whenever I get the chance so yes it is quite obvious, but I like it! It gives English some nice clear pronunciation :D
I always felt like dirt's tarmac physics were terrible, which... I used to enjoy codies' toca games, so I know they can do tarmac physics... This makes a ton of sense. So far, the only game that can compete with rbr for rally physics is....... Beamng. Shocker, but driving there feels right. The amount of danger present in your driving makes the pace you drive at more realistic and the interactions with bumps and obstacles are way more realistic, because it's not a driving game, but a physics simulator.
Having now switched to UE it’s the perfect opportunity to completely overhaul the physics free from any core stuff that ego needed to function
Now I can't unsee it.
Great analysis! It's a problem I've always encountered even in Assetto Corsa
Hopes are completely dashed. 😄 They were high but as soon as I seen the tarmac footage and then some early access gameplay. I knew it hadn't been rectified, some channels were dancing around the tarmac elephant in the room.
Now that you have also pointed out the handling pivot point thing I won't stop thinking about it while I'm playing it constantly for the next year.
Wow, Thanks. This Explains A Lot.
Ea/codemasters what is your official response to this analysis video? 😂 I'm here to offer nothing and 100% to watch the paid "reviewers" and fan boys power throat eachother and defend this multi billion dollar corporation who thinks pushing gambling in the form of loot boxes to children and adults
Their official response is "lol idc 🤑🤑"
Wait, what are you talking about? There is no loot boxes or micro transactions in EA WRC..
you know EAs history well i see.. doom bass@@pbakai182
Very informative. Good job!
Wow I am suprised... youtube recommended me your video. Its really really well made. I hope this video and your channel blows up 👍
Wow, thank you! I indeed have gotten a huge amount of comments just in a few hours. Must create more content though!
Thanks for explaining this problem with details. I think you're the first to actually break it down instead of just complaining XD
Holysiht you nailed it i always hated the physics of dr for this reason without understanding what really is happening!
I remember dirt 4 came out and everyone complained the cars were understeering like crazy. Perhaps they did indeed do what you propose in dirt 4 and decided to go back to a central pivot to avoid all the negative feedback...
Interestingly, I really liked Dirt 4. 😂 But I don’t think it’s about whether the car understeers or oversteers. It’s about what the game considers oversteering, or losing grip.
well i think the understeering was perceived by the public as a 'problem' and IIRC the devs came out and said something to the tune of 'well this is how rally cars actually handle and the cars don't slide quite as much as you maybe want them to'.
@@mrelwoodgames5971
glad we have rsf rbr
And rbrpro2 :)
What is weird about this is that center pivot is an ancient tech while the dirt rally games do have to simulate all four tires to get decent handling and feedback. They just then go back and apply said simulation to a pivot. This feels like they are failing on the last hurdle. Coming from track racing sims where pivot would be laughed out the building makes this maddening but it is probably a side effect of the dirt series being mostly arcade titles and the dirt rally series starting out as a passion side project.
Great video! The only point i would disagree with is suspension. Modern rally suspension is so good, that it really does absorb huge jumps in just one move. You can watch any modern wrc jump compilation and you'll see it. Apart from this everything is great :)
Yeah, their suspension is wild, but there should be at least some rebound after high jumps, I think. Also, the load is transferred once the car continues to accelerate after landing. Zero travel just seems a bit odd)
This video really broke my brain, I just got the EA wrc 2023 and Im seeing only how it not behaves like a real car. Great video, I think youre Finnish like myself.
Maybe instead of breaking your brain the video woke it up? 😜
Ja joo, suomalaisia ollaan. Ei tätä aksenttia pakoon pääse!
There are more problems with the Dirt physics. It seems that you control the rotation of the car directly, rather than the wheels pushing the car and the friction of the front wheels changing the cars direction. You can steer wildly from left to right, with the car pointing to the left side, and then turn almost 180 degrees to the right side, still sliding along the track. You can go back and forth like that very fast. It becomes very noticable when you lower the force feedback. A real car would loose grip and spin out of control, but in Dirt, your input just rotates the car easily. If you oversteer in a corner, you can steer aggressively to correct it in a very unrealistic way.
Exactly, its like the car is steered in mid air, rather than the ground.
Very well said, both of you!
God damn it. I didn't want to see this. Now I can't unsee it.
Don’t worry, EA WRC isn’t as bad as it looked from the preliminary gameplay clips.