Answering YOUR questions about HDMI over IP! What is the LATENCY?
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
- Oh man I got a LOT of comments on the last video! So, today, I'm answering (most) of the questions you guys had, plus a few other neat things I found while investigating them.
See the previous video here, where I demonstrate these HDMI over IP devices in a matrix!
• HDMI Distribution over...
Link to the blog post with the pcap file and more:
www.apalrd.net/posts/2022/hdm...
Link to the product I showed in this video:
TESmart HKE12MMA20 KVM over IP - www.tesmart.com/collections/h...
Or on Amazon: amzn.to/3IZe8VT
Link to the PoE splitter I promised: TP-Link TL-POE10R
amzn.to/3v2tEK0
My Discord Server, where you can carry on the discussion or suggest future topics:
/ discord
If you find my content useful and would like to support me, feel free to here: ko-fi.com/apalrd
The test films I showed are both produced by the Blender Foundation, licensed CC-BY.
Big Buck Bunny: • Big Buck Bunny 60fps 4...
Sintel: • Sintel - Open Movie by...
Timestamps:
00:00 - Intro
00:16 - 1. Will it do 4K?
00:24 - 2. Will it do 144hz?
00:30 - 3. Does it support ultrawide?
01:34 - 4. What type of encoding / Can I open it in VLC?
01:52 - 5. HDCP
02:33 - 6. Other Professional Solutions?
02:58 - 7. Display Power Savings?
03:27 - 8. Compression Artifacts?
04:28 - 9. WiFi? Powerline? MoCA?
05:03 - 10. LATENCY??
06:00 - 11. Multiple keyboards / mice?
07:31 - 12. PoE?
08:13 - 13. Power Consumption?
09:15 - Conclusion
Some links to products may be affiliate links, which may earn a commission for me. - Наука та технологія
Using exactly same KVM units as you have, tested with powerline adapters.
I am using TP-Link AV1300 units and everything worked like magic. Obviously if a lot of stuff happening within network, end result a bit pixelated and choppy, but if local network is quiet - end results is very good and super usable.
Makes sense for a shared medium
Wow, really surprised it works over powerline adapters. Great to know. I have some AliExpress HDMI over IP adapters from 2020, they work quite well. I have a separate LAN just for the HDMI over IP.
Thanks for confirming. Am contemplating if I should get one but the thing is they gonna go through a switch > MOCA adapter > switch that share the same network as my IP Cameras > NVR
Hello, @@markc871, is there any tutorial i can follow for creating a separate LAN for that purpose? Thanks
@@kyantti I just ran seperate lan cables and installed a seperate switch.
This has all been super valuable! I've been looking for a similar solution for a while and was never willing to pull the trigger without more detailed questions answered re: compatibility, network utilization, protocol info, etc.
Thank you so much for putting in the legwork!!
Glad it's helpful to you!
Yes, we did love your last video or so about the HDMI extenders. And, that's what helped me find your channel. You've got great content and quite a wonderful personality. This will become a big channel. I'm glad that I'm early to the show.
Glad you like it! And thanks for all the comments on the other video as well
PoE means I can just send power to the PoE switch or PoE injector & have one less power brick near the device. Thus, one more outlet is available by the output &/or input device.
Also, in a perfect world having the device powered via POE, you could use the infrared to wake-up the TV. Is you use the TV’s USB, chances are that it drops power when the TV is in standby and therefore the infrared is not available to power it on.
Also, given that we put the power socket behind the TV in commercial installs, even little power bricks are difficult to fit anywhere and might get stolen, if put in a nearby socket.
Great videos about these. You've covered every question I have. I'm going to get a pair to test over multi-hop wireless networks.
Bought 3 Sets and 3 HDMI Swtiches (5 Ports on each of those). Now I can have all my computers in separate location and be able to switch between all computers through the built in IR remote LED, Just amazing. One oversight from the video I want to point out is Audio, if you're using this on a monitor like I am, make sure that it supports audio through the HDMI or has a AUX/headphone port so you can plug in speakers. Also using a USB hub switch on the receiver end to switch between the USB over IP to the PC I want to control on the other end.
(forgot to mention the receiver end for me is for a triple monitor set up)
apalrd might be one of the most thorough techsplainers/reviewers within the video medium. Thank you so much for all the effort you put into testing and documenting your findings and process!
Wow, thanks!
Using different brand devices to get to a projector mounted to the ceiling. The transmitter we have broadcasts over IP rather than negotiating directly with a receiver and sending unicasts (not sure if yours is the same). Definitely recommend running them on their own VLAN segment because that does have a performance hit on a network, and definitely so if you have Wifi APs. It's quick to saturate the airwaves, especially on an 11n network or if you have several client devices since it's broadcasting to all of them and it's a shared medium.
This one uses multicast, so it shouldn't cause issues for WiFi if the APs are doing IGMP snooping properly
have you heard of a replacement for the slingbox? Same price range for hardware. I really like my slingbox and used it for many years.
Dear Apalrd, I have been seen your two movies about this HDMI over IP. But I have a loss in quality in picture while playing, blurred. Could it be that I dont use switches with IGMP? I experience it with 1 rec and 1 trans, but also with 3 rec and 3 trans. Its a network only for the HDMI, got a seperate network for the internet.
It encodes everything in h.265, the bandwidth is not all that high. So the quality will depend on the movement of the source, since it's fairly constant bitrate.
After watching both your videos, I bought 2 pairs of these, because they fit my needs perfectly. However, I keep having issues with audio desyncing after running them for an hour or so. It's subtle, about 3/10 second behind, but its very noticeable for dialogue in videos.
If i switch the receiver to another channel then back again, it's resyncs again, but only until it desyncs after an hour or so.
Any tips or ideas what would cause this? I've even tested the transmitter and receiver directly connected to one another and still get the issue.
I didn't do long term tests with sound (I mostly use these for remote timing and scoring displays), so I'm not sure how to fix it.
One question I had, and apologies if you covered this:
You essentially have broadcaster and receiver. Can two receivers connect to the same broadcaster simultaneously? Or is there something to prevent this? If prevented: what happens if you go to one room and realise you left something else connected to your intended broadcaster elsewhere? Do you have to get up and go disconnect it first?
You can have as many receivers as you want at once. It's part of the reason it only supports USB HID and not full USB, since it has to merge all of the USB commands into one set of commands at the source side.
Hi, I really liked your videos regarding this topic. My use case is basically gaming. Video and audio check. What about gaming controller? Any solution for that connection? Or is it working with the Mouse/Keyboard USB Port?
Thanks in advance
It won't do a gamepad, only keyboard and mouse unfortunately.
Hey there. Thanks for this and the previous video, it was really helpful. Can I ask whats the limit of screen I can send picture from the same source? If I connect the transmitter to a switch which is connected to another switch can I connect displays to both switch?
The system scales everything to 1080p on the network. You can go through multiple switches without issue.
@@apalrdsadventures Thank you for the answer.
Thanks for this! Did you test controllers with it? It's a HID device usually, so it should work?
I did test them and no it does not work. It reads the HID inputs, converts that to a normalized scan code / xy mouse format and sends that over the network to replicate at the source.
@@apalrdsadventures oh, that's a shame. I guess I need more steam links then, thanks for checking!
Hey dude, so you've got me intruiged about these things. I've noticed that there are cheaper ones available that don't have the digital readout/selector so presumably you can't select the channel and can only therefore have one transmitter on the network. Does that sound about right?
If they don't have a selector at all, they could either be not using IP (so you have to directly connect them, not go through a switch) or they could be one-to-many (so you can only have one transmitter and unlimited receivers). Usually the 'one-to-many' keyword is a good sign that it will work over normal switches.
There are also some without the digital readout that use DIP switches to set the address. These should work the same as mine, in fact I linked to an 'older model' on amazon that does this and otherwise works similarly to the 'new model' with the digital readout (except you have to toggle the DIP switches to 'tune' them).
@@apalrdsadventures gotcha. Thanks very much for the explanation mate. Really appreciate it
thanks a lot for that amazing video... thanks !!
Glad you liked it!
I've noticed on their site it can do up to 1920*1200. Is that accurate or is it 1920*1080?
Is it possible to achieve it with camcorders by converting the hdmi output to ip and make a multicamera from a distance of more than 200 meters?
It will work with camcorders yes. Switching from one transmitter to another does take a second or two and sometimes there are visual artifacts during the switch.
200m is quite a long distance for Ethernet though, you'll need a switch or two in between.
QUESTION: Late to the game here, but do you know if supports remoting into the boxes for remote control over a network?
You can remote control a computer via its HDMI / USB ports, but it doesn't power it on.
Also, the transmitter + receiver only talk to each other, and the traffic is not designed to go across a routers, so it's suitable for remote control at the other end of the house / office, not across the Internet.
@@apalrdsadventures but then, control from across the house IS the point...internet access for remote control would be...terrifying. Lol
Great video
I know you said that as long as the devices are on the same bridge they will work. What about through multiple switches with IGMP snooping enabled? My use case is to have the server in one building and the monitor in the other. It is a small campus and the three switches are all on the same IP LAN.
As long they are all on the same layer 2 network it should work. I've gone across a number of switches without issues.
How about audio? I’m using this behind my home theater and sending the video to another tv on the network. I just haven’t found an option for audio, I thought that it would work without question since the audio would just be compressed with the video signal.
It negotiates stereo PCM on the transmitter side, and the receiver side supplies stereo PCM as well. As far as I can tell there's no compression on the audio.
@@apalrdsadventures This is starting to make more sense. On the amp (with the kvm receiver attached) it does auto switch to PCM audio input when I select that source input. I’ll revisit my audio settings a bit more on my next attempt.
AFAIK these don't support anything other than PCM audio, since the transmitter has no idea what the capabilities of the receiver are, it advertises to only support PCM audio so it doesn't have to convert anything if a receiver doesn't support the format.
Got it figured out. Thanks for your insight I made a couple of adjustment on the transmitting end and it worked.
This is lovely for streaming pcs and security cams being tied in to the same hdmi display....well, I have 3 hdmi ports and I can "change the channel", but beyond that, adding a second pc for gaming not streaming, or for ... stock charts maybe? I dont like the latency for that, so maybe not, but at least they are viewable without swapping cables.
Could it be used over internet? Like opening a port on my router? Or it would be needed other device to do that. I do not know a lot about networks, still learning...
Not directly, although you should be able to successfully tunnel (using something like a VPN) it as long as the tunnel can pass multicast traffic.
@@apalrdsadventures i see, thx for this clarification
Look for "layer 2 VPN" as a search for you
Is it actually IP if it has to run on the same collision domain? Can the 'signal' be routed?
In theory multicast can be routed properly, but I don't believe the return channel (USB / IR) will work correctly with a routed network
can I view the video on the browser supplied from the transmitter as it is having an ip address
Not directly in a web browser.
We have been playing a bit on my Discord with the packet format, it has very little encoding around h.265 packets but nobody has written a decoder yet.
@@apalrdsadventures it would be really nice if you don't need a receiver on the other end and just use the browser for multiple locations on the network
No embedded web browser, but it does have telnet lol
Anyone got wireless keyboard/mice on the receiver on this thing? I have tested everything, can get wired in all variations, cant get wireless to work tho..
Would it be possible (or maybe easy?) to redirect the display out of the network to a target in another network somewhere else in the world?
I know it would probably make more sense to just use an open source Remote Desktop app.. but the idea interest me 🎉
I have some pcaps of the traffic. It should be possible with a combination of multicast routing and ARP proxying (and if you don't care about USB / IR, you don't even need the ARP proxying bit).
The traffic is essentially raw h.265 directly in UDP packets.
Some NDI Decoders have buttons or you connect a usb keypad to change the source. no need for separate Software to controll them.
Or a web interface that allows you to select another NDI source
@@0XiDiZE birddog play can be controlles using hdmi cec, webinterface, rest api, usb keyboard, ...
really nice, i would really like to get my pc from living room, searching for a "good" solution. This seems doable, what i dont get is, if thats really so good working, why they dont add a microfon and audio jack...? ;) wouldnt make much more work i guess like why is there no "refined solution"? btw, do you know a 10gbit solution with less lag?
The units are almost entirely one-way and it already has to deal with mixing keyboard and mouse inputs as-is, so mixing audio would be another thing to deal with for reverse audio.
As to lower latency, it will never be better than 1 frame due to the fact that it has to receive the HDMI signal entirely (to capture the frame), transmit the frame, and then send the HDMI signal again. It's only using around 5mbps as-is, so 10g wouldn't help at all. It's really a matter of getting a more powerful chip that can do the encode/decode faster on each end.
Do you think an enterprise laptop will pick this up in a laptop scan for other devices?
Depends on how sophisticated the scan is, I have no idea what software is on the laptop and what it's trying to detect.
PoE is for stuff like security cameras. You feed that video back to the DVR, not the tv or monitor. You then use the switch to connect the display to your tv so you can have multiple sources plugged in to the tv.
how does this compare to pikvm in terms of latency?
I don't have a PiKVM to compare against, but their website estimates 100-200ms. This is 60-80ms, so much better.
I kinda want to know if using a bluetooth keyboard and mouse would actually work.. for gaming on the tv in the living room.
The USB ports only work for HID, but Bluetooth has enough range to go a few rooms over on its own.
I used a wired mouse/keyboard, and a set with their own dongle (not Bluetooth) and both of those worked.
You can run these and many other devices off PoE with a PoE SPLITTER which the exact opposite of a Poe Injector
Does any one know how to manage these if you're using 2 or more monitors?
You'd need a pair for each monitor and to give them different IDs, but they will run over the same Ethernet switch / cabling just fine
Does it do 4k 240hz? /s
then you're beyond what HDMI can handle ;)
sure, just use silver cables.
@@apalrdsadventures 2.0 can't, 2.1 usually can - you did the same thing in the video, saying "USB cant handle above 5v 500mA" when plenty of USB standards can.
A lot of wifi APs don't really support multicast, so over wifi might struggle
Best case it sends it unicast to clients subscribed via IGMP. Worst case it slows everyone down to 802.11g to multicast to them.
Subscribed: Your project looks like a similar end-goal to mine, but I am doing it all in software (NDI+USBIP) [that by definition does need hardware to run on] that runs on a Raspberry Pi 4, Jetson Nano, or similar SBC.
Some details on my channel.
I've also been following along Linus[Tech Tips]' home's 5 PC LAN trying to do something similar...but has much deeper pockets that either one of us and can afford $1500 fiber based USB 3.0 extenders. :/
I think for strictly PCs I'd go with something like Moonlight (not that I have much experience with it).
I'm personally using these boxes a lot in my studio and for other things which have HDMI outputs (I reformat basically everything before I film a video, so now I can let them all sit with their transmitters and do the re-imaging remotely if I leave flashdrives with OSes plugged in).
The only thing left for me is to find a decent way of doing VR gaming, but that's definitely beyond these and also beyond moonlight.
So 4 Cycles => ~ 140ms latency, right? 4*1/30*1000 ?
2 frames per cycle (white / black) so it’s about half that.
I… may have [ab]used my Steam Link (hardware) for this purpose before - it's not like Steam cares what it starts 🤓
Multiple mouse and keyboard behavior is the same as if they were both plugged in directly. These are limitations in the driver.
good cat
Latency still looks not that good for me, also limitation of not having 4k or wide resolutions support. Still thanks for review!
wall power meters do not show spikes, they average consumed power over a period of 1s, which is a lot even for 50/60hz mains, let alone for SMPS power rail.
You'd need quite an expensive equipment to measure device peak power consumption, that USB is not equipped to provide.
The 8:32 glitch is usual?
With all these restrictions why not just stream using a software like Sunshine or Parsec and then decode on the receiver using an android TV box capable of decoding the stream
Really nice products. The only thing i do not like is that you just transmit unencrypted keyboard inputs and the picture over the network. As soon as one device in the network gets compromised there is no technical barrier to steal all your credentials and spread to the PCs controllable via this hdmi over IP solution.
If you use an isolated layer 2 network (separate switch or separate VLAN), it won't be a problem
@@apalrdsadventures Thats right. Separate VLANs would be an option. A second switch would require separate cabling for all these devices and therefore mitigate the benefit of using ethernet.
@@TheMrMaxx Depends on your goals, if you want one-to-many or many-to-many you still get those advantages with a dedicated switch. If you want to share cabling with other networks and also segregate these units then you'd need VLAN tagging.
4 frames is an eternity. Wouldn't play a game or even use for productivity. And i don't even own a single screen that has over 60hz refresh rate.
HDBase-T all the way for extending image links.
Interesting idea - not all that usefull for me (lack of 4K and as I am a very old fashioned guy I want to have access to my computer's optical drives (yes: It has them and I'd consider a desktop without them to be defective/unfinished!)...not to mention that I don't want to get up to connect a USB-Drive, SD-Card or external harddisk/SSD!)
"Roughly 4 frames" at 60 FPS is 60 ms of latency. Definitely not gaming territory. Moonlight can do sub-millisecond latency on a local network, now that's more like it.
Obviously, Moonlight has a lot more compute at its disposal. I'm not saying these little doodads aren't impressive, but they are quite limited in terms of raw computational power.
It's 30 Hz so 130 ms not 60
It really just lacks full USB support to be a killer product for me :/
It's really a question of if you want multicast / IP-based ability or can settle for RJ45 (no splitting / sharing the network). There are different options both ways.
Since this one is doing multicast, it has to merge all of the USB data into one data stream to send to the host. It does this by converting HID devices into scan codes and mouse movements, adding up the scan codes from all clients, and sending that to the host. If it did full USB, it would be a lot more complicated.
If you don't want multi-receiver support, there are boxes which transmit raw usb + hdmi over RJ45 (non-IP-based).
Damn, absolute dealbreakers unfortunately
I'd like to use a Raspberry Pi 4 / Zero 2 W as a 'thin client' for a Windows PC elsewhere in the house to support HDMI+USB over Ethernet, but WITHOUT a KVM box connected to the local PC. Just plain ethernet going out of the PC, but not use Moonlight or another RDP - have a virtual monitor interface that Windows recognizes so the Pi can really act as a thin client that directly controls the PC as if its connected monitor/keyboard/mouse were directly connected. No extra KVM hardware required (aside from the Pi). However, perhaps this is silly and Moonlight is really the answer for this.
Hello, maybe you can help me with some concepts. I have a controller with HDMI output and mouse USB input. I need to operate it from another PC from another location using Internet. Latency will be no problem. Can the Pi4 do the job ? I need to transform the HDMI output of the controller into IP streaming.
0:30 what about 4k 120hz?
No, but it can do 8k @ 240Hz
Anyone tried these with Wifi?
It is actually pretty easy to do matrix switching with NDI and yes - you need a software but no - the software is not doing the mixing itself. I use the Zen NDI Router but there are other Solutions out there. The Zen NDI Router can be controlled remotely and thus can be run on a VM and act as a central Matrix.The Video Streams are being routed directly between Source and Destination so the Zen Router is only doing the "Negotiation-Side" and is not actually routing the streams.....
Aaaand sorry but I have to say that these Devices are absolutely not good for gaming. Theres at least a 4-frame Delay in your Video - I don´t know about your Framerate Settings on the PC or the Framerate recording settings but thats what I see from this video and thats way to slow for Gaming anyways. Maybe Games like a Flight Simulator would work but any fast pace games would not as the latency is too high. The same would be true for NDI as well.
Wow, who uses only 1080p in 2023??? Sorry, but this is useless for most things. Too slow Hz for gaming. Too low resolution for watching videos and too low resolution for serious office work, like coding with only 1080p.
way to be an asshole for no reason. dude made one of few videos on this topic, helped out a bunch of people, and informed others. Even your judgemental, snarky self, now knows the limits of this technology and that it’s not for you. So he helped you, yet you’re still a prick about it. Way to go. I agree that 1080p at 60hz is too low, but most of the world still uses 1080p/60 and, frankly, most people don’t care.
I can definitely code with 1080p 😂 I don't know what kind of coding you're doing where you *need* high resolution.
Now that said, I wouldn't prefer it... but to code on the couch or in bed, it's better than nothing of course.
@@MrRedstonefreedom Because coding often requires you to view the result, for example in a browser. If you only run 1080p, you will have a hard time to fit all tools on one screen and will have to switch windows all the time, which makes your job inefficient. Or use multiple screens. Higher resolution and a big screen is the best option.
Is it possible to update the firmware on these devices?
I haven't found a way.