This seems rather one sided. Collectivism can be extremely harmful if not looked after. Lynch mobs, Witch Huntings are simple examples of what happens when Collectivism becomes unchecked.
Just wait until collectivism takes control. People attending college can't go for that trashy 'Gender Studies' degree because the 'collective group' needs engineers, teachers, and doctors more than an LGBTQ activist. In class, if you study hard, your grade is averaged out so that the individual that didn't work at all can pass. At work, those who bust their rear ends have to be 'team players' to cover down on the lazy ass that thinks they are entitled. Its coming...Glad I'm old.
Collectivism says if you are the only one doing all the work in a group project, you should just smile and go with it. Also if you are not particularly popular or are introverted, collectivism will hurt you because social relationships are far more important. Being socially isolated is worse in collectivism compared to individualism. It also discourages whistle blowing. You are expected to lie with the group no matter what horrible things it is up to. Government corruption is a major problem in collectivism. If your dad is involved in crime, you'd be expected to aid and lie for him. If your family doesn't approve of your lifestyle choices and especially of who you date or associate with, you are expected to comply. This is especially toxic if prejudice is the underlying motivation. Ultimately, in collectivism, you are forced to live under far more control and scrutiny. Collectivism inherently clashes with trans idology because, if you notice, trans people insist "I identify as this way. I define myself. Not you." It's why the trans movement hasn't taken offf as much in the reat of the world as it has in the usa. In collectivism, the group defines you, not the other way around.
@@shawnclement9242 most of things u mentioned ahs nothing to do with collectivist societies. its kind of same even when u are in a collectivist society , if u do more work u will get promotion and more advantages. why are u people adding collectivist society and communism they are different things , most of collectivist societies are capitalist so these things u are mentioning aren't a basic problem in collectivist societies. if somebody is taking charge and getting more authority then he will take more responsibility too. I dont think u have been in a collectivist countries before ?
@@ASH-bb4sg That's a collectivist society that adheres to individualistic practices. If you do more work and rewarded with a promotion, that's an individualistic achievement. A group of people working on a project and rewarded with time off + opening party. Thats a collectivist achievement. He's was talking about the dangers of a collectivist society that unfortunately are still around today. Brazil is a dominantly collectivist and capitalist society, but the nation is unfortunately behind in a lot of things economically. US, UK or Europe are societies that adhere a balance of both collectivism and individualism. Don't confuse the two with both being absolute.
What’s wrong with people not studying “Gender studies” and the like, and doing things that are more useful for society? That doesn’t seem like your 2 other examples, were you joking with that one?
Well, individualism can indeed make the collective stronger and that individualism is the leader of collectivist people. A leadership characteristic can overlap with some of the aspects of individualism. But let's not forget that an individualism leader is not good for collectivism because it's very dangerous. An individualism would only process with his own goals and can use collectivism for his own gains. In my opinion, I think the video was one-sided. The key point should be that it would be good to have a balance of individualism and collectivism.
it sounds like the two are mutually exclusive. either can be used for good or bad. a good form collectivism+individualism is like a quartet of singers singing the same song, but having different vocal ranges. i see bad collectivism as an authoritative subject enforcing conformity, suppressing individual expression, whereas bad individualism is freedom of expression without purpose
Bad individualism yes youre right, naturally leads to capitalism which is purpose-less but like franklin said ‘he who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
I am not sure people really understand what a collective (hive) culture really is. I am a westerner living in Indonesia, one of the most collective cultures in the world. Let me warn you, it is all a lie. Who do you think runs a collective society? The collective people with in it? Collective societies are not places where all people are equal. It is a culture that is driven by a strong pecking order that must be respected and anyone who falls out of line in this pecking order will be punished severely. This punishment can range from public shaming, shunning, torture, all the way to death. Here in Indonesia there is a larger gap between the wealthy and the poor. At first it may look like it just revolves around ethnic groups as the Javanese people rule over all the other groups. This part was achieved through acculturation after the 1965 genocide when Suharto moved groups of Javanese people around the country and place them in control of local economics and resources. The other ethnic groups had to surrender all power to them and obey or die. The other groups figured they would marry their prettiest daughters into the Javanese groups (the BIG family) to try and regain some of their lost wealth and power. The Javanese countered this tactic by arranging inter marriages with in their own families. after the fall of Suharto in 1998 things only got worse as the groups began to fight amongst each other for power over the country. The police executed most of the military leaders to secure power. To this day the police family runs the country from behind the president. The entire country is run on bribery and corruption. It is very important for people to be polite while being discriminated against. Respect and politeness to the leaders of the groups s the most important thing. This also goes for the millions of slaves here, the majority of whom are children and men. In all collective societies there is a leader who rules over the group. You will never know who it is until you are initiated into the group, usually through marriage, were it is then dictated to you firmly with a smile. Your will is the will of the leader.
@@joehobo8868 Well put. Idealistic young westerners have no idea what they're talking about when they romanticize collective and tribal societies. Hell, the very idea of a liberal society is a response to the excessively oppressive nature of collectivism.
@@TIm_Bugge Young Westerns romanticize about creating a collective society because they are individuals. This is because they are not constrained to the will of a master as people born in collective societies. People of collective societies are born that way and they cannot be changed, it is a genetic trait that is passed on from one generation to the next. It is okay if you think I am wrong about the genetics. However, you can research Robert Sapolsky, who is a neuroendocrinology researcher and behavioral scientist at Stanford University, you can learn about this with his full course that was upload on youtube. Before I came here I never heard much about collectivism. It was something very few people had any knowledge of or ever inquired about, let alone, studied.This is what I have learned first hand about these people in Indonesia though marriage. In a nutshell collectivism is not communism. It is the rawest for of natural fascism. Joshua Oppenheimer who made two documentaries here, The Act of Killing and The Look of Silence, stated that Indonesia today is actually what Nazi Germany would be today if hey won the war. Nationalism is extremely high here because of collectivism. If you came here you would see them a very quiet and polite people. But that is because you are nothing but a tourist spending money (example: Bali). They do not hate white people, they hate our mindset and independence. As for black people, they just hate them as much as the Chinese, and openly call them 'Monyet" (Monkey) in public. Everything here is owned by the top competing Javanese groups (families), who run the government from behind the scenes. Speaking in an ill manor towards a group leader will get them kicked out of the family and shunned until they beg for forgiveness. If ill speech is directed at the government they will be imprisoned indefinitely,if they are not killed during their arrest. Law and justice is bought and sold here like any commodity. They are either born a leader or born a slave. There is no in between. The mass majority of people in a collective society believe that independence is a sign of mental illness and people here convicted as mentally ill are severely abused here. Believe me or not, the woke leaders in the west are misleading people to summit to their will in order to create a society like Indonesia. I have been trapped in Indonesia for more than 3 tears now, no passport of visa as the Canadian government revoke my passport and had me cancelled. In all of my life I have paid my taxes and never once broke any laws. If they did it to me then how many other people has this been done to? If you don't believe it is worth fighting Wokism to the death, then you are a fool, because it is do or die. Life in a collective hive culture is worse to death!!!
That isn't what individualism and collectivism represent. Individualism and collectivism have to do with social analysis. It is about how society treats the individual. If the individual has priority over the collective that implies that individuals are seen as being unique and autonomous in which they think critically for themselves and are judged on their own individuality. That is individualism. If the collective has priority over the individual that implies that there is no concept of the unique and autonomous individual. Individuals are conditioned to be uncritically minded and mentally controlled on the basis of a collective consciousness and collective biases. This way of thinking depends on group power dynamics to mentally control people. That is collectivism. Individual rights represent individualism while collective/group rights represent collectivism. Collectivism is the means to tyranny. Think about it in the context of North Korea. North Korea doesn't have a word for 'I' or 'me', rather they have a word for 'we'. When North Koreas escape to South Korea, they have to be taught these words. The reason for not having those words in their language is because independent thought isn't allowed. A citizen of North Korea exists to serve the collective and the regime dictates what that means. That is an example of a collectivist culture. Identity politics is an example of collectivism because it is based on group identity and is use to instill a power dynamic to mentally control people.
Collectivism is outdated and harsh. It ruins the identity of the person, and also almost no novelty, innovation and uniqueness compared to individualism.
the problem in America is either they are too individualistic or too collectivist. As an Asians we are taught to be more assertive and speak out. We have to be less humble. I wish the culture on the other side be taught humility and put more emphasis in harmony.
@@ImTitan16 I guess you could say this is the influence of Western thought. As collectivist and non-assertive thought is normal, most people tend to be shy and not stick out. But that also means no one leads. But somehow someone need to lead and/or complain if something is wrong. Normally, no one complains because you don't want to appear the incompetent complainer. No one also leads because you don't want to appear the incompetent leader. Asians value the concept of "face" that sometimes it is better to die than lose "face". The more conservative the Asian, the more important "face" is. Western thought is the way of putting less value in face (especially the family) to achieve one's goals... but that also looks irresponsible in Asian standards. It is a complicated balancing act. As you can see in typical Western examples in particular "typical" Americans - they look smug, dumb, incompetent, and just all talk and complain.. usually the most notorious would be ghetto culture.
Collectivism and Individualism are jewish modern concepts. Nationalism is what you're talking about, Japan used to be a great empire and still has some elements of it despite of turning somehow individualistic due to its westernization.
Why japan is said to be so creative is because collectivism is external, not internal. Americans are externally individualists. But internally more collectivist than external China would be really generally collectivist both inside and outside.
Collectivism leaves individuals in the cold. Im not a social person, i prefer to be left alone. I prefer taking full credit for my accomplishments. If someone did assist me, I give them their deserved applause. If no one assisted then I take full credit. Even if the task was assigned to my section which included a few other persons. If they did none of the hard work, i will tell the boss it was all me, that I was the team. The team decided the task was beneath them. Then I would ask for a new team that would be willing to actually earn their paychecks. If I came up with a creative solution to a problem and no one else on the team helped to implement it, well they get the boot.
don't confuse being alone with working with other, when one has to perform work one has to do it as group, if one wants to be alone you have the choice to stay away from others, unless you get that annoying narcissist monkey that can't stay put, the problem is people that are individualist also run the team wrongly and show favoritism, an individualist will pretty much take all the credit for the good thing they never did and deny all the bad things they did and drop it on their subordinates
@matrixteknologies4279 I agree. I've experienced that myself. Had a leader of the team that contributed zero, was nowhere to be found while we worked. When it was done he returned just in time to take credit. No one liked the guy, but he was good at office politics(sadly). Every person is talented in different ways, if everyone on the team contributes regardless of output then the team is successful, however it should be noted/recognized if any person consistently outperforms the rest. Collectivism in a utopian society will not encourage performance nor reward performance.
@@brandonsheffield9873 That said performance is the issue. A collective idea like a corporate can't work without collectivism. Yes, fallacies exist like you've explained, but it has to be dealt with rather abandon. Modern economy or even the standard of living is a boon of collectivist ideas which came from organised religion.
I pretty much agree with the points made in this video but I think that, like the frame conservative vs liberal, presenting individualism and collectivism as opponents is fatally flawed. They are better thought of as sequential. Just as a conservative approach yields opportunities for liberation, individualism yields opportunities for collectivism.
Here's a simple difference : Individualism : Each person is a separate individual , independent Collectivism : Each person is a "drone" , dependent But collectivism has a major moral issue : What if someone has to sacrifice themselves to improve or save humanity ? (Its not their fault humanity needs saving) . In Individualism , no one car force you to sacrifice yourself for someone else if it wasnt your fault theyre in that situation . In collectivsm , it is perfectly fine to sacrifice soemeone for the benefit of the community as a whole , because they as an individual are not important .
Christianity in the US also has certain collective values that make it harder to leave. The vaccination rates of countries also reveal how these values manifest themselves.
My "cultural gap" as a former student is that I resented pulling along other students in my "work group" who refused to participate, read, write or be active for the group goal. All of these students received fake praise and inflated grades for the work that they did NOT do. My participation was just "part of their group or collective". This is public education. When I analyze the salary of the teacher as the "edumacator" of the whole class I wonder where my pay is for my contribution to teaching my passive groups? Show me the money! In the future, most of these students will likely find employment as either government employees or will be on government assistance. It is ironic that they will try to blame productive people like me for their miserable lives. I am not impressed by the low standards permitted for state teaching credentials. Most college students who planned to be teachers had the lowest academic standards. In my state ( California), the minimum math content standard to graduate high school is grade 8. Final exams are no longer required for a high school diploma. The State Bar now has multiple choice exams instead of essays. Can these new lawyers read? How many public high school teachers have academic degrees in Chemistry, Mathematics, Physics or Engineering? Those who can do, those who can not teach. QED ua-cam.com/video/NNl7GQFTULU/v-deo.html
I think individualism should be the default state, and collectivism should be left for dire circumstances like war or climate change where we all have a stake in the matter. But also things like accessible healthcare for everyone. That's a pretty dire circumstance
It's always interesting to me how those who are a member of the majority population or majority racial group who already owns and controls 90% of all economic & political resources speaks against collectivism. That is very suspicious and self-serving. For example, the mainstream white establishment has the luxury of not having to say let's "buy white" because they already do buy white by default because they already own & control 90% of all sources of economic & political control. Whereas the population or racial group that is in the minority can never expect equal access to economic& political resources because they must rely on the "illusion of inclusion.". So, out of necessity the minority group must practice collectivism to empower the group. It is a false narrative to create a individualism vs collectivism narrative. It is not about one vs the other. For the group in the minority, it is a matter of BOTH AND, not either or. For example, the best, fastest and most powerful way for African Americans to empower themselves economically is through the successful combination of BOTH individualism AND collectivism. The majority group has the luxury of pursuing only individualism because they already have open access to the system. In contrast, the minority group doesn't have the luxury of practicing strictly individualism because that would only benefit a relatively few Black individuals but would leave the masses behind. But the masses must practice collectivism in order to produce their own economic infrastructure and not continue to be a people dependent on another group to include them. It is disingenuous for Jordan Peterson to deride collectivism when he belongs to a group that doesn't need it. The goal is to avoid EXTREME individualism and EXTREME collectivism. But for minorites, BOTH are needed.
I argue individualism and collectivism can simply go hand in hand. There are many who are kind because they want to. They believe in themselves that it will be alright for others, and to believe in others, it will be alright for yourself. But some People have been traumatized by society and became cycinal about caring others and be kind as useful and self interest is the only way to thrive. While others became in return cynical about self interest and start to force people to care others destroy others self worth in a unkind way to get even. Both became coward, lost and incomplete in moral ways
There's sharing and caring individuals who can say no to each other if needed. Or there's collectivists, where "you" don't matter. "You" are just part of a greater whole. If you want to be less than a number, be a collectivist.
If a child is being raise to function in an individualistic society, then the teacher should help the student to become more individualistic (or at least teach him to function in an individualistic society), to function properly in that society. Does a teacher help the child by encouraging his collectivism, and thus hindering his ability to function in an individualistic society? It's just logical that a teacher's goal is to help students function in the society they will live in as adults. Otherwise, excellent analysis.
I want to say that the Creator is talking about positive collectivism. Not negative. Collectivism. Positive collectivism is doing something for the welfare, hospitality of people etc. However, counter should have been equally positive individualism. Positive individualism is doing things individually, not at the expense of others ' The pursuit of happiness' I will say the difference is not that Americans do not have a collectivism but that collectivism is done by the thought of encouraging positive individualism. Like encouraging people to pursue their 'dreams', happinesses, celebrating people's differences. But what we struggle with is say wearing mask because it can reduce illnesses, this is for the common good to reduce illness. But because it can be perceived as a threat to 'individualism' I'll call it 'fearful individualism' and that we can also fear collectivism because we see it as a threat to individualism, this leads to negative individualism. So as long as collectivism lines in the goals of the individualism it's fine. But once 'common good' doesn't a line with individualism it causes problems.
I've been learning about the idea of individualist and collectivist culture. So far, it looks to me like BS. Further, it looks like it's being used to portray countries as bad.
collectivism aid in the development of society as a whole in which everyone gets progress in harmony individualism develops a single individual but that may or may not aid the progression of society rather may lead to dominance and superiority of individual
Why does it always have to be so dualistic and mutually exclusive? I have now gained meaningful understanding of living in a collective/socialist society and individualistic/capitalist society. Also I have a psychology degree from London university. If we look at the child development and how western scientists recognise different types of attachment between an infant and their caregivers (Ainsworth, Barlby), scaffolding by Vygotsky and how adult guides a child through different stages of learning ensuring that they build confidence, determination, focus, flexibility and trust, in the classroom how smarter kids have a better chance to succeed in passing knowledge to their less intelligent peers than teachers. Structure of the classroom has been designed to group pupils in groups of 5 sitting together at the table and 2 of them are top level and they help the other 3. I was born and raised in a socialist society but I see my experience as entirely different from what you described in this clip. Having strong foundations built around the same values is simply necessary to maintain any kind of social structure. Growing up in a community like my children grew up in London’s Ladbroke Grove where people from different ethnic backgrounds built together place where everyone is integrated into the society to some extent and form that basic structure second and third generation of these families is eventually developed into the one multicultural Grove community where a Spanish neighbour can ask for some sugar their Somalian neighbour and where the moment residents noticed that one of the estates was burning everyone run out to try and help their neighbours. During my education my teachers recognised my potential and I was supported by my school in developing further those individual skills. After school activities were set up in such way that if you are excelling you go to after school clubs where you are encouraged to do extra work that is more challenging and if you are delayed you go to a different club where you get support to reach required levels. Everything was based in a collective effort but if you stand out you are provided by your group with necessary resources to develop further. I read somewhere that Yugoslavian system was called a rough communism. Now, here in London we still have NHS, social welfare system on one side of the road there are posh single family homes while on the other side is an estate with lower socioeconomic demographics. There are very few gated communities like for example in Paris. All in all, I’m feeling privileged to have experienced this unique environments. I’m super tired as well so I hope I make sense… Toodle loo
@@54321Truth really dude? Really?.....millenials....baby boomers....meatloaf.....Nancy Pelosi....Austin Texas.....pubic lice.........and JEWS are the worst? I hate to break it to you, man....but you do not have a mind capable of critical thought.
@@ghostrider2664 so racism is close minded for thinking about how other races are discriminated against? I get you probably mean more political ones but -ism are important for the development of society as they make it easier to understand one concept and another. If anything it is more open-minded to observe each -ism and find one you agree with the most and improve on that idea with everything you learnt from the others. This helps improves each system and eventually will lead to a better society that combines traits from all of them.
nontheless how much bullshit that guy jordan peterson gets himself into eg. religious debates etc...he is right about one thing and that is that differences between people run quite deep so, its not that simple. Individual people do collective stuff and collectivists have individual things going on. It pictures exactly how important it is to recognise one's individual.
This is an example of how someone who wants your stuff gets it. Individuals dont stand a chance against the hoards of collectivist. There is always a pecking order most are just to blind or drunk with the idea to see it.
@@Mrcontrolfreak21 Individuals can work together to achieve a goal, and often do. But they can also say no, and do their own thing as well. With collectivists, "you" don't matter. Only the collective does.
American Teacher has responsibility to teach individualism so the child can achieve success and take advantage of our individualistic culture. Otherwise the student will end up being a loser who can't compete.
Yeah sure thats why individualism is the worst system... because you need to compete and competition is the root of any war while colectivism is about people getting toghether to get a goal done, you need to work with others because you need others, no man can survive alone. Also when you talk about people who archive success competing you are talking about working class because the owners of the company dont do it
@@robertorpg2132 Marxism fails because nobody competes. Owners of companys compete with other companys. But yes, if a company becomes a monopoly it becomes like socialism and performance and service decline. Like big tech company monopolys. We all enjoy the ability to drop a company if they provide bad service and buy from another company. You don't drop your ethics just because you compete. Competition is not inherently not ethical. People are not ethical. Unethical people can be capitalist or socialist.
@@robertorpg2132 If people only see themselves as a group they will never thrive beyond their group. At the end of the day, a collective is only as good as the person who leads, influences, or controls it. A hive mind is still one mind that dictates all. In a school, I had a hard time trying to fit in with people because I never associated with a particular group and never wanted to be apart of group that was limited to one core trait. It was only when I started to make my own path I was able to interact with people better because I could use each thing I had in common with them to relate to a broader group of people. No man can survive alone but the reason that is possible is because each man is unique enough to bring their strength to the group. In simpler terms, by improving ourselves we are improving the world around us because we have a greater understanding of what it is to be human.
I argue individualism and collectivism can simply go hand in hand. By simply believing in it. There are many who are kind because they want to. They believe in themselves that it will be alright for others, and to believe in others, it will be alright for yourself. There is trust and confidence. And if its broken, they just got to fix it up. But some People have been traumatized by society and became afraid and cynical of humanity. Some became cycinal about caring others and be kind as useful and sees it as pathetic. and self interest is the only way to thrive, kindness is useless.. While others became in return cynical that people are programmed to be uncaring and only able to do self interest, and start to force people to care others, put people down if they seem to powerful, and destroy others self worth in a unkind way to feel safe of their own lack of confidence . Both left and right became coward, lost and incomplete in moral ways. And centrists only compromise their rotten ideals, are not actually thinking positive.
A collectivist society that doesn't recognize individualism is a dangerous society on the tip of collapse. A collectivist society that respects individuality is a prosperous and diverse society on a climb to progression.
That individualist idea can be dangerous. Not everything that one does has a direct effect on someone or something. Like consuming drugs is an individual right according to individualism, but it indirectly harms many so the collectivist groups tackle it.
This is phenomenal content. I read a book with similar content, and it was nothing short of spectacular. "The Art of Meaningful Relationships in the 21st Century" by Leo Flint
This seems rather one sided. Collectivism can be extremely harmful if not looked after. Lynch mobs, Witch Huntings are simple examples of what happens when Collectivism becomes unchecked.
Just wait until collectivism takes control. People attending college can't go for that trashy 'Gender Studies' degree because the 'collective group' needs engineers, teachers, and doctors more than an LGBTQ activist. In class, if you study hard, your grade is averaged out so that the individual that didn't work at all can pass. At work, those who bust their rear ends have to be 'team players' to cover down on the lazy ass that thinks they are entitled. Its coming...Glad I'm old.
Collectivism says if you are the only one doing all the work in a group project, you should just smile and go with it.
Also if you are not particularly popular or are introverted, collectivism will hurt you because social relationships are far more important. Being socially isolated is worse in collectivism compared to individualism.
It also discourages whistle blowing. You are expected to lie with the group no matter what horrible things it is up to. Government corruption is a major problem in collectivism. If your dad is involved in crime, you'd be expected to aid and lie for him.
If your family doesn't approve of your lifestyle choices and especially of who you date or associate with, you are expected to comply. This is especially toxic if prejudice is the underlying motivation.
Ultimately, in collectivism, you are forced to live under far more control and scrutiny.
Collectivism inherently clashes with trans idology because, if you notice, trans people insist "I identify as this way. I define myself. Not you." It's why the trans movement hasn't taken offf as much in the reat of the world as it has in the usa. In collectivism, the group defines you, not the other way around.
@@shawnclement9242 most of things u mentioned ahs nothing to do with collectivist societies.
its kind of same even when u are in a collectivist society , if u do more work u will get promotion and more advantages.
why are u people adding collectivist society and communism
they are different things , most of collectivist societies are capitalist so these things u are mentioning aren't a basic problem in collectivist societies.
if somebody is taking charge and getting more authority then he will take more responsibility too.
I dont think u have been in a collectivist countries before ?
@@ASH-bb4sg That's a collectivist society that adheres to individualistic practices. If you do more work and rewarded with a promotion, that's an individualistic achievement. A group of people working on a project and rewarded with time off + opening party. Thats a collectivist achievement.
He's was talking about the dangers of a collectivist society that unfortunately are still around today. Brazil is a dominantly collectivist and capitalist society, but the nation is unfortunately behind in a lot of things economically.
US, UK or Europe are societies that adhere a balance of both collectivism and individualism.
Don't confuse the two with both being absolute.
What’s wrong with people not studying “Gender studies” and the like, and doing things that are more useful for society? That doesn’t seem like your 2 other examples, were you joking with that one?
The tension between individualism and in group preference feels like it can break you.
A strong sense of individualism makes the collective stronger and resistant to bad actors in society.
Well, individualism can indeed make the collective stronger and that individualism is the leader of collectivist people. A leadership characteristic can overlap with some of the aspects of individualism. But let's not forget that an individualism leader is not good for collectivism because it's very dangerous. An individualism would only process with his own goals and can use collectivism for his own gains. In my opinion, I think the video was one-sided. The key point should be that it would be good to have a balance of individualism and collectivism.
No. It leads to intense hierarchies.
it sounds like the two are mutually exclusive. either can be used for good or bad. a good form collectivism+individualism is like a quartet of singers singing the same song, but having different vocal ranges. i see bad collectivism as an authoritative subject enforcing conformity, suppressing individual expression, whereas bad individualism is freedom of expression without purpose
Bad individualism yes youre right, naturally leads to capitalism which is purpose-less but like franklin said ‘he who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
@@rps_game Why can't good individualism flourish under capitalism?
I am not sure people really understand what a collective (hive) culture really is. I am a westerner living in Indonesia, one of the most collective cultures in the world. Let me warn you, it is all a lie. Who do you think runs a collective society? The collective people with in it? Collective societies are not places where all people are equal. It is a culture that is driven by a strong pecking order that must be respected and anyone who falls out of line in this pecking order will be punished severely. This punishment can range from public shaming, shunning, torture, all the way to death.
Here in Indonesia there is a larger gap between the wealthy and the poor. At first it may look like it just revolves around ethnic groups as the Javanese people rule over all the other groups. This part was achieved through acculturation after the 1965 genocide when Suharto moved groups of Javanese people around the country and place them in control of local economics and resources. The other ethnic groups had to surrender all power to them and obey or die. The other groups figured they would marry their prettiest daughters into the Javanese groups (the BIG family) to try and regain some of their lost wealth and power. The Javanese countered this tactic by arranging inter marriages with in their own families. after the fall of Suharto in 1998 things only got worse as the groups began to fight amongst each other for power over the country. The police executed most of the military leaders to secure power. To this day the police family runs the country from behind the president. The entire country is run on bribery and corruption. It is very important for people to be polite while being discriminated against. Respect and politeness to the leaders of the groups s the most important thing. This also goes for the millions of slaves here, the majority of whom are children and men.
In all collective societies there is a leader who rules over the group. You will never know who it is until you are initiated into the group, usually through marriage, were it is then dictated to you firmly with a smile. Your will is the will of the leader.
@@joehobo8868 Well put. Idealistic young westerners have no idea what they're talking about when they romanticize collective and tribal societies. Hell, the very idea of a liberal society is a response to the excessively oppressive nature of collectivism.
@@TIm_Bugge Young Westerns romanticize about creating a collective society because they are individuals. This is because they are not constrained to the will of a master as people born in collective societies. People of collective societies are born that way and they cannot be changed, it is a genetic trait that is passed on from one generation to the next. It is okay if you think I am wrong about the genetics. However, you can research Robert Sapolsky, who is a neuroendocrinology researcher and behavioral scientist at Stanford University, you can learn about this with his full course that was upload on youtube.
Before I came here I never heard much about collectivism. It was something very few people had any knowledge of or ever inquired about, let alone, studied.This is what I have learned first hand about these people in Indonesia though marriage. In a nutshell collectivism is not communism. It is the rawest for of natural fascism. Joshua Oppenheimer who made two documentaries here, The Act of Killing and The Look of Silence, stated that Indonesia today is actually what Nazi Germany would be today if hey won the war. Nationalism is extremely high here because of collectivism. If you came here you would see them a very quiet and polite people. But that is because you are nothing but a tourist spending money (example: Bali). They do not hate white people, they hate our mindset and independence. As for black people, they just hate them as much as the Chinese, and openly call them 'Monyet" (Monkey) in public. Everything here is owned by the top competing Javanese groups (families), who run the government from behind the scenes. Speaking in an ill manor towards a group leader will get them kicked out of the family and shunned until they beg for forgiveness. If ill speech is directed at the government they will be imprisoned indefinitely,if they are not killed during their arrest. Law and justice is bought and sold here like any commodity. They are either born a leader or born a slave. There is no in between.
The mass majority of people in a collective society believe that independence is a sign of mental illness and people here convicted as mentally ill are severely abused here. Believe me or not, the woke leaders in the west are misleading people to summit to their will in order to create a society like Indonesia. I have been trapped in Indonesia for more than 3 tears now, no passport of visa as the Canadian government revoke my passport and had me cancelled. In all of my life I have paid my taxes and never once broke any laws. If they did it to me then how many other people has this been done to? If you don't believe it is worth fighting Wokism to the death, then you are a fool, because it is do or die. Life in a collective hive culture is worse to death!!!
That isn't what individualism and collectivism represent. Individualism and collectivism have to do with social analysis. It is about how society treats the individual. If the individual has priority over the collective that implies that individuals are seen as being unique and autonomous in which they think critically for themselves and are judged on their own individuality. That is individualism. If the collective has priority over the individual that implies that there is no concept of the unique and autonomous individual. Individuals are conditioned to be uncritically minded and mentally controlled on the basis of a collective consciousness and collective biases. This way of thinking depends on group power dynamics to mentally control people. That is collectivism. Individual rights represent individualism while collective/group rights represent collectivism. Collectivism is the means to tyranny. Think about it in the context of North Korea. North Korea doesn't have a word for 'I' or 'me', rather they have a word for 'we'. When North Koreas escape to South Korea, they have to be taught these words. The reason for not having those words in their language is because independent thought isn't allowed. A citizen of North Korea exists to serve the collective and the regime dictates what that means. That is an example of a collectivist culture. Identity politics is an example of collectivism because it is based on group identity and is use to instill a power dynamic to mentally control people.
Exactly. And The social and mental coertion is like slo-mo Maoism
The problem is BALANCE! There must be a balance between the two concepts for a society to work.
Collectivism is outdated and harsh. It ruins the identity of the person, and also almost no novelty, innovation and uniqueness compared to individualism.
@cheerful_crop_circle But you still need to think about other people, so you still need some balance
@@saccorhytus No. I dont care about other people.
@cheerful_crop_circle I mean like people less fortunate such as the homeless, they deserve help
I maybe more of a collectivist than I may have thought. Although born in America I cherish community.
Thanks for this upload. It helped me in my social class
India is a collectivist State where there are 1000s of collectivist groups divided by caste and more
the problem in America is either they are too individualistic or too collectivist.
As an Asians we are taught to be more assertive and speak out. We have to be less humble.
I wish the culture on the other side be taught humility and put more emphasis in harmony.
Really? I always thought asians were meant to be more humble and more collectivist. I'm not Asian so I guess I don't know
@@ImTitan16 I guess you could say this is the influence of Western thought. As collectivist and non-assertive thought is normal, most people tend to be shy and not stick out. But that also means no one leads. But somehow someone need to lead and/or complain if something is wrong. Normally, no one complains because you don't want to appear the incompetent complainer. No one also leads because you don't want to appear the incompetent leader.
Asians value the concept of "face" that sometimes it is better to die than lose "face". The more conservative the Asian, the more important "face" is. Western thought is the way of putting less value in face (especially the family) to achieve one's goals... but that also looks irresponsible in Asian standards. It is a complicated balancing act. As you can see in typical Western examples in particular "typical" Americans - they look smug, dumb, incompetent, and just all talk and complain.. usually the most notorious would be ghetto culture.
There needs to be a balance of having both collectivism and individualism cause too much of one thing is bad
Collectivism and Individualism are jewish modern concepts.
Nationalism is what you're talking about, Japan used to be a great empire and still has some elements of it despite of turning somehow individualistic due to its westernization.
@@EddieNotFound1what is the difference between nationalism, collectivism and individualism?
Why japan is said to be so creative is because collectivism is external, not internal.
Americans are externally individualists. But internally more collectivist than external
China would be really generally collectivist both inside and outside.
But Japan is still very collectivist nonetheless
@cheerful_crop_circle I say moderate but in a radical manner between internal and external
Collectivism leaves individuals in the cold. Im not a social person, i prefer to be left alone. I prefer taking full credit for my accomplishments. If someone did assist me, I give them their deserved applause. If no one assisted then I take full credit. Even if the task was assigned to my section which included a few other persons. If they did none of the hard work, i will tell the boss it was all me, that I was the team. The team decided the task was beneath them. Then I would ask for a new team that would be willing to actually earn their paychecks.
If I came up with a creative solution to a problem and no one else on the team helped to implement it, well they get the boot.
don't confuse being alone with working with other, when one has to perform work one has to do it as group, if one wants to be alone you have the choice to stay away from others, unless you get that annoying narcissist monkey that can't stay put, the problem is people that are individualist also run the team wrongly and show favoritism, an individualist will pretty much take all the credit for the good thing they never did and deny all the bad things they did and drop it on their subordinates
@matrixteknologies4279 I agree. I've experienced that myself. Had a leader of the team that contributed zero, was nowhere to be found while we worked. When it was done he returned just in time to take credit. No one liked the guy, but he was good at office politics(sadly). Every person is talented in different ways, if everyone on the team contributes regardless of output then the team is successful, however it should be noted/recognized if any person consistently outperforms the rest. Collectivism in a utopian society will not encourage performance nor reward performance.
@@brandonsheffield9873 That said performance is the issue. A collective idea like a corporate can't work without collectivism. Yes, fallacies exist like you've explained, but it has to be dealt with rather abandon.
Modern economy or even the standard of living is a boon of collectivist ideas which came from organised religion.
I feel more alone in an individualistic culture
So Collectivism is for extroverted people?
I pretty much agree with the points made in this video but I think that, like the frame conservative vs liberal, presenting individualism and collectivism as opponents is fatally flawed. They are better thought of as sequential. Just as a conservative approach yields opportunities for liberation, individualism yields opportunities for collectivism.
Here's a simple difference :
Individualism : Each person is a separate individual , independent
Collectivism : Each person is a "drone" , dependent
But collectivism has a major moral issue :
What if someone has to sacrifice themselves to improve or save humanity ? (Its not their fault humanity needs saving) .
In Individualism , no one car force you to sacrifice yourself for someone else if it wasnt your fault theyre in that situation .
In collectivsm , it is perfectly fine to sacrifice soemeone for the benefit of the community as a whole , because they as an individual are not important .
Are Eastern Europe and the Balkans more collectivist or more individualistic?
Christianity in the US also has certain collective values that make it harder to leave.
The vaccination rates of countries also reveal how these values manifest themselves.
My "cultural gap" as a former student is that I resented pulling along other students in my "work group" who refused to participate, read, write or be active for the group goal. All of these students received fake praise and inflated grades for the work that they did NOT do. My participation was just "part of their group or collective". This is public education. When I analyze the salary of the teacher as the "edumacator" of the whole class I wonder where my pay is for my contribution to teaching my passive groups? Show me the money! In the future, most of these students will likely find employment as either government employees or will be on government assistance. It is ironic that they will try to blame productive people like me for their miserable lives. I am not impressed by the low standards permitted for state teaching credentials. Most college students who planned to be teachers had the lowest academic standards. In my state ( California), the minimum math content standard to graduate high school is grade 8. Final exams are no longer required for a high school diploma. The State Bar now has multiple choice exams instead of essays. Can these new lawyers read? How many public high school teachers have academic degrees in Chemistry, Mathematics, Physics or Engineering? Those who can do, those who can not teach. QED
ua-cam.com/video/NNl7GQFTULU/v-deo.html
I think individualism should be the default state, and collectivism should be left for dire circumstances like war or climate change where we all have a stake in the matter. But also things like accessible healthcare for everyone. That's a pretty dire circumstance
It's always interesting to me how those who are a member of the majority population or majority racial group who already owns and controls 90% of all economic & political resources speaks against collectivism. That is very suspicious and self-serving. For example, the mainstream white establishment has the luxury of not having to say let's "buy white" because they already do buy white by default because they already own & control 90% of all sources of economic & political control. Whereas the population or racial group that is in the minority can never expect equal access to economic& political resources because they must rely on the "illusion of inclusion.". So, out of necessity the minority group must practice collectivism to empower the group. It is a false narrative to create a individualism vs collectivism narrative. It is not about one vs the other. For the group in the minority, it is a matter of BOTH AND, not either or. For example, the best, fastest and most powerful way for African Americans to empower themselves economically is through the successful combination of BOTH individualism AND collectivism. The majority group has the luxury of pursuing only individualism because they already have open access to the system. In contrast, the minority group doesn't have the luxury of practicing strictly individualism because that would only benefit a relatively few Black individuals but would leave the masses behind. But the masses must practice collectivism in order to produce their own economic infrastructure and not continue to be a people dependent on another group to include them. It is disingenuous for Jordan Peterson to deride collectivism when he belongs to a group that doesn't need it. The goal is to avoid EXTREME individualism and EXTREME collectivism. But for minorites, BOTH are needed.
can i quote you for my school oral?
I argue individualism and collectivism can simply go hand in hand. There are many who are kind because they want to. They believe in themselves that it will be alright for others, and to believe in others, it will be alright for yourself.
But some People have been traumatized by society and became cycinal about caring others and be kind as useful and self interest is the only way to thrive. While others became in return cynical about self interest and start to force people to care others destroy others self worth in a unkind way to get even.
Both became coward, lost and incomplete in moral ways
My families are individualist when it comes to their own money and self interest but becomes collectivist when they problems with their lives.
There's sharing and caring individuals who can say no to each other if needed. Or there's collectivists, where "you" don't matter. "You" are just part of a greater whole. If you want to be less than a number, be a collectivist.
If a child is being raise to function in an individualistic society, then the teacher should help the student to become more individualistic (or at least teach him to function in an individualistic society), to function properly in that society. Does a teacher help the child by encouraging his collectivism, and thus hindering his ability to function in an individualistic society? It's just logical that a teacher's goal is to help students function in the society they will live in as adults. Otherwise, excellent analysis.
I want to say that the Creator is talking about positive collectivism. Not negative. Collectivism.
Positive collectivism is doing something for the welfare, hospitality of people etc.
However, counter should have been equally positive individualism. Positive individualism is doing things individually, not at the expense of others ' The pursuit of happiness'
I will say the difference is not that Americans do not have a collectivism but that collectivism is done by the thought of encouraging positive individualism. Like encouraging people to pursue their 'dreams', happinesses, celebrating people's differences.
But what we struggle with is say wearing mask because it can reduce illnesses, this is for the common good to reduce illness. But because it can be perceived as a threat to 'individualism' I'll call it 'fearful individualism' and that we can also fear collectivism because we see it as a threat to individualism, this leads to negative individualism. So as long as collectivism lines in the goals of the individualism it's fine. But once 'common good' doesn't a line with individualism it causes problems.
Long shxt, for your mother eat.
I've been learning about the idea of individualist and collectivist culture. So far, it looks to me like BS.
Further, it looks like it's being used to portray countries as bad.
collectivism aid in the development of society as a whole in which everyone gets progress in harmony
individualism develops a single individual but that may or may not aid the progression of society rather may lead to dominance and superiority of individual
They both are required for a healthy functioning state.
Why does it always have to be so dualistic and mutually exclusive? I have now gained meaningful understanding of living in a collective/socialist society and individualistic/capitalist society. Also I have a psychology degree from London university.
If we look at the child development and how western scientists recognise different types of attachment between an infant and their caregivers (Ainsworth, Barlby), scaffolding by Vygotsky and how adult guides a child through different stages of learning ensuring that they build confidence, determination, focus, flexibility and trust, in the classroom how smarter kids have a better chance to succeed in passing knowledge to their less intelligent peers than teachers. Structure of the classroom has been designed to group pupils in groups of 5 sitting together at the table and 2 of them are top level and they help the other 3.
I was born and raised in a socialist society but I see my experience as entirely different from what you described in this clip. Having strong foundations built around the same values is simply necessary to maintain any kind of social structure. Growing up in a community like my children grew up in London’s Ladbroke Grove where people from different ethnic backgrounds built together place where everyone is integrated into the society to some extent and form that basic structure second and third generation of these families is eventually developed into the one multicultural Grove community where a Spanish neighbour can ask for some sugar their Somalian neighbour and where the moment residents noticed that one of the estates was burning everyone run out to try and help their neighbours.
During my education my teachers recognised my potential and I was supported by my school in developing further those individual skills. After school activities were set up in such way that if you are excelling you go to after school clubs where you are encouraged to do extra work that is more challenging and if you are delayed you go to a different club where you get support to reach required levels.
Everything was based in a collective effort but if you stand out you are provided by your group with necessary resources to develop further. I read somewhere that Yugoslavian system was called a rough communism. Now, here in London we still have NHS, social welfare system on one side of the road there are posh single family homes while on the other side is an estate with lower socioeconomic demographics. There are very few gated communities like for example in Paris.
All in all, I’m feeling privileged to have experienced this unique environments. I’m super tired as well so I hope I make sense…
Toodle loo
Individualism is king 👑
Individualism is toxic too
You can say that now because momma & poppa pay the bills.
In the The UK 🇬🇧 people often develop a all about me mentality. This is a fantastic video. Thank you
Format is good
Be sure to like and subscribe! Thanks for watching.
-isms in any sense, are closed minded thinking.
Judaism is the worst.
@@54321Truth really dude? Really?.....millenials....baby boomers....meatloaf.....Nancy Pelosi....Austin Texas.....pubic lice.........and JEWS are the worst?
I hate to break it to you, man....but you do not have a mind capable of critical thought.
@@54321Truth or are you saying you dislike the belief system? Or the people? Clarification please.
@@ghostrider2664 Why are you supporting a satanic "ism" called Judaism?
@@ghostrider2664 so racism is close minded for thinking about how other races are discriminated against?
I get you probably mean more political ones but -ism are important for the development of society as they make it easier to understand one concept and another. If anything it is more open-minded to observe each -ism and find one you agree with the most and improve on that idea with everything you learnt from the others. This helps improves each system and eventually will lead to a better society that combines traits from all of them.
nontheless how much bullshit that guy jordan peterson gets himself into eg. religious debates etc...he is right about one thing and that is that differences between people run quite deep so, its not that simple. Individual people do collective stuff and collectivists have individual things going on. It pictures exactly how important it is to recognise one's individual.
It doesn't matter...
Why
This is an example of how someone who wants your stuff gets it. Individuals dont stand a chance against the hoards of collectivist. There is always a pecking order most are just to blind or drunk with the idea to see it.
@@EVBud69 I don’t see collectivism as sharing your “stuff”. I see it as working together to achieve a goal. It has nothing to do equal outcome
@@Mrcontrolfreak21 Individuals can work together to achieve a goal, and often do. But they can also say no, and do their own thing as well. With collectivists, "you" don't matter. Only the collective does.
@@sirellynbut individualism is more toxic. That's why the politicians don't care about your kids'lives until the politicians kids get shot
American Teacher has responsibility to teach individualism so the child can achieve success and take advantage of our individualistic culture. Otherwise the student will end up being a loser who can't compete.
lol
Yeah sure thats why individualism is the worst system... because you need to compete and competition is the root of any war while colectivism is about people getting toghether to get a goal done, you need to work with others because you need others, no man can survive alone.
Also when you talk about people who archive success competing you are talking about working class because the owners of the company dont do it
@@robertorpg2132 Marxism fails because nobody competes. Owners of companys compete with other companys. But yes, if a company becomes a monopoly it becomes like socialism and performance and service decline. Like big tech company monopolys. We all enjoy the ability to drop a company if they provide bad service and buy from another company. You don't drop your ethics just because you compete. Competition is not inherently not ethical. People are not ethical. Unethical people can be capitalist or socialist.
@@robertorpg2132 If people only see themselves as a group they will never thrive beyond their group. At the end of the day, a collective is only as good as the person who leads, influences, or controls it. A hive mind is still one mind that dictates all.
In a school, I had a hard time trying to fit in with people because I never associated with a particular group and never wanted to be apart of group that was limited to one core trait. It was only when I started to make my own path I was able to interact with people better because I could use each thing I had in common with them to relate to a broader group of people.
No man can survive alone but the reason that is possible is because each man is unique enough to bring their strength to the group. In simpler terms, by improving ourselves we are improving the world around us because we have a greater understanding of what it is to be human.
I argue individualism and collectivism can simply go hand in hand. By simply believing in it. There are many who are kind because they want to. They believe in themselves that it will be alright for others, and to believe in others, it will be alright for yourself. There is trust and confidence. And if its broken, they just got to fix it up.
But some People have been traumatized by society and became afraid and cynical of humanity.
Some became cycinal about caring others and be kind as useful and sees it as pathetic. and self interest is the only way to thrive, kindness is useless.. While others became in return cynical that people are programmed to be uncaring and only able to do self interest, and start to force people to care others, put people down if they seem to powerful, and destroy others self worth in a unkind way to feel safe of their own lack of confidence .
Both left and right became coward, lost and incomplete in moral ways. And centrists only compromise their rotten ideals, are not actually thinking positive.
A collectivist society that doesn't recognize individualism is a dangerous society on the tip of collapse.
A collectivist society that respects individuality is a prosperous and diverse society on a climb to progression.
That individualist idea can be dangerous. Not everything that one does has a direct effect on someone or something.
Like consuming drugs is an individual right according to individualism, but it indirectly harms many so the collectivist groups tackle it.
@@speedythings7396 Consuming drugs is not just an individualistic decision. It can be collectivist as well.
Aka, Peer pressure
@@speedythings7396Wow
In American, It's an all about me mentality. Another great video!
This is phenomenal content. I read a book with similar content, and it was nothing short of spectacular. "The Art of Meaningful Relationships in the 21st Century" by Leo Flint
"collectivism is too easy." Also nobody liked Stalin. They feared him.
Since when Stalin is collectivism
This all ideology nonsense.
Ideology? You and me are a part of it.
What about mentality?
In spanish please 😉👍
Hmm, that is a good idea. Thanks!
*The video is dumb. It’s not realistic. It’s oppressive.*
*This is dumb.*
political correctness vs pakisama