This describes my (an INTJ) failed romantic relationship with an ESFJ almost too well.. Everything from the admiring/thinking very highly of each other, the wonder, to the conflicts as distance grew closer. I remember being nitpicked for my mannerisms in social situations and feeling like crap because of her criticism of my “philosophizing too much” and having a “difficult time having fun.” I don’t know how my Ni messed with her vulnerable function, but I’m 100% sure it did. Even the idea of placing my value on the success of our romantic attempt was spot on! Walking away and trying to process everything, I hated myself because of my perceived inability to interact well with others, something I’ve always been self-conscious about. Almost a perfect description of my Vulnerable Fe! Didn’t know much about socionics before today, but I’m consistently being blown away by how well it describes myself Edit: WOW, that description of the Role vs. Creative explains a lot as well! I always thought she was unnecessarily controlling at times over people and over her own school work, and I knew that I could handle certain Te-necessary tasks more effectively, but I let her do her thing. I was wanted to undergo that “existential compromise” but tbh that’s probably not good for a romantic relationship. But again, we are great friends and we know God has a lot to teach us through each other
I was unfortunate enough to grow up in a conflict relationship with my brother (me=ENFP, him=ISTP). It was exactly as you described, for example there was a kind of detatched mutual respect but as soon as we tried playing together, or cooperating for something, it was a complete nightmare and quickly ended in me saying something passive aggressive and him fighting me - i would never win a fight so i learned pretty quickly to passify or run away, it would wind him up even more. Must have been a nightmare for our mum. Today, in our late twenties, everything about our lives is different, living in different cities with completely different friendship groups and jobs (me=teaching at university, him=coder for a bank). It's been fascinating learning about socionics, if only we had understood eachothers differences from an earlier age we might have been able to manage our relationship better and spent less time frustrated growing up. Thanks for reading if you've got this far (sorry for the essay!)
That's really interesting, I haven't spoken to my brother for years... I'm not sure even what type he is though ESTJ comes to mind to my INTJ it would make sense because he didn't get along with my INFJ Mother at ALL and left after new house rules were made... though you'd think an ESTJ would understand the need for rules according to their neuro scientific makeup and the stereotypes associated with them as such. And his fellow dislike of my Rule setting ISTJ stepfather is another weird factor. But back to the point. Do you have any better a relationship with your brother now??
Interesting! Thanks for the reply. Me and my brother will stick up for each other, and we will encourage in an off hands way (think, 'good luck bro!', rather than, 'hey let me know if i can help out with xyz'). But we don't involve each other in our decision making, in other words we don't exchange much more than pleasantries. It works well this way. I know we have each others backs in a crisis because we believe that's what family does, but we don't take any preventative steps to help each other because we know we will just end up frustrating things. It's sad but probably a good outcome.
I briefly considered trying to contact my estranged brother to find out his type. But it was a big can of worms when he left don't wanna reopen it. even if I'm kinda interested in the socionic implications of what he left for. Though it's entirely possible he was just a rebellious teen. I was too in my own very subtle way. because who isn't I liked my INFJ mother however and he did much so far as I could tell. ESTJ or something along those lines may make sense.
Conflictors are interesting people who do what you can only dream of doing. Maybe even looking how you ideally want to. But as you spend more time with them, their flaws spring up on you and they become insufferable. I think they're good relations if you spend a long time apart before reuniting. Avoid in everyday living.
One thing on this Michael, when Consistent is not necessarily 'consistently on high', e.g. the Leading and Demonstrative. It can also be 'consistently on low', e.g. the Vulnerable and Suggestive. The point is not the level at which they are operating, but rather that the level does not fluctuate depending on the situation.
I really loved the fact that you're exploring more of Socionics now! For the crowd is so timid and afraid of going into the water. But I now remember that you have a photo of a smiling Nietzsche. If you're reading this, it'll be a wonderful thing if you could give a link to that image. I've been trying so hard to find it but couldn't. So, it'd be a really big help.
Also you got it wrong on Bold Cautious. Its the functions that share the Extroversion/Introversion of the Leading function that are the Bold ones, not the Rationality/Irrationality. That's why you thought they were the same as Demand/Supply!
Fantastic. The Ti classifications are a bit above me and a chore to deal with(INTJ). But I'm sure I'll learn them and integrate them into my language and progress as you have. And I very much look forward to your further socionic videos.
Michael, I am not sure if you are aware of this but you have one more Revisting video to do: ESFP. I'm not making any demands but please......do it! I've been waiting forever.
It's a great idea to do the interrelationship videos individually per type. Just do the INTJ video first please. Do you plan to do intj conflict, intj supervision, intj benefit, etc? Or just one long video? Anyway, can't wait. Btw love your sense of humor at the start of the video, hahah so cute
I've heard of ENFPs and ISTJs being conflicting and ive heard of them being their duality. Which is it? I'm curious to hear because my fiance is an ISTJ and I'm an ENFP.
LittleBirdy1 according to socionics, you both make up the duality pair! Those saying they conflict may be more prone to using MBTI and the four letters only without delving into cognitive function makeup and how they may theoretically complement one another
LittleBirdy1 ENFP conflicts with ISTP, but in Socionics ISTP is written as ISTj and ISTJ as ISTp. You first have be aware if the person is Socionics literate or not because this can get confusing.
Just curious, how's your relationship doing? Tbh i think that "duals" relationship are bullshit and actually the most frustration and unfulfillment you can get (the only pro is that you understand each other's language), way more than conflict. So I'd be happy if you'd let me know how it's going for you? I'm really intrigued, because i could never imagine myself being in a close, intimate dual relationship.
Hahaha your lead/creative and role/vulnerable analogies are priceless. Plus, up till now, I didn't even realize that it was Fe advice that ESTJs would occasionally offer me. Ultra. Cringe. But Lapis and Jasper, eh? :D it strikes me that, post-fusion, the extroverted partner was totally sold on it while not so much for the introverted partner. I would liken it to Hegel's master-slave dialectic in its most oppressive form.
Sorry, I'm using MBTI lettering -- so it would be INTp in Socionics. INTp and ESFj are conflictors -- which is the same as saying INTJ and ESFJ are conflictors.
My very first videos have to do with that: ua-cam.com/video/0myAXoCXP58/v-deo.html Also, this playlist might help: ua-cam.com/video/5uKaFveOhXY/v-deo.html
The bold functions share the attitude (ie extraversion or introversion) with the leading function, rather than the same rationality. Other than that, great video! It's nice to see some more socionics.
Although Michael identifies himself as an INFJ, that does not mean that his Socionics type will translate into INFp. I seriously doubt he's Te-vulnerable. Consider INFj or even INTp instead.
Socionics is an eight function model; all types "have" all eight functions. The four Valued functions correspond to MBTI's four functions, so for an INFJ they would indeed be Ni Fe Ti Se. When he talks about Te and Si in INFJs, that's when he's reaching into socionics' Subdued functions, which MBTI just doesn't deal with. It also doesn't help that socionics writes the functions of an INFJ in the order Ni Fe Te Si Se Ti Ne Fi, but the order itself is somewhat arbitary, NOT meant to represent descending facility; the important thing is that socionic' description of how Ti and Se work in INFJs is pretty much analogous to what MBTI calls "tertiary" and "inferior". Socionics then adds four more descriptions: how INFJs relate to Ne, Fi, Te, and Si.
This describes my (an INTJ) failed romantic relationship with an ESFJ almost too well..
Everything from the admiring/thinking very highly of each other, the wonder, to the conflicts as distance grew closer. I remember being nitpicked for my mannerisms in social situations and feeling like crap because of her criticism of my “philosophizing too much” and having a “difficult time having fun.” I don’t know how my Ni messed with her vulnerable function, but I’m 100% sure it did.
Even the idea of placing my value on the success of our romantic attempt was spot on! Walking away and trying to process everything, I hated myself because of my perceived inability to interact well with others, something I’ve always been self-conscious about. Almost a perfect description of my Vulnerable Fe!
Didn’t know much about socionics before today, but I’m consistently being blown away by how well it describes myself
Edit: WOW, that description of the Role vs. Creative explains a lot as well! I always thought she was unnecessarily controlling at times over people and over her own school work, and I knew that I could handle certain Te-necessary tasks more effectively, but I let her do her thing.
I was wanted to undergo that “existential compromise” but tbh that’s probably not good for a romantic relationship. But again, we are great friends and we know God has a lot to teach us through each other
I was unfortunate enough to grow up in a conflict relationship with my brother (me=ENFP, him=ISTP). It was exactly as you described, for example there was a kind of detatched mutual respect but as soon as we tried playing together, or cooperating for something, it was a complete nightmare and quickly ended in me saying something passive aggressive and him fighting me - i would never win a fight so i learned pretty quickly to passify or run away, it would wind him up even more. Must have been a nightmare for our mum. Today, in our late twenties, everything about our lives is different, living in different cities with completely different friendship groups and jobs (me=teaching at university, him=coder for a bank). It's been fascinating learning about socionics, if only we had understood eachothers differences from an earlier age we might have been able to manage our relationship better and spent less time frustrated growing up.
Thanks for reading if you've got this far (sorry for the essay!)
That's really interesting, I haven't spoken to my brother for years... I'm not sure even what type he is though ESTJ comes to mind to my INTJ it would make sense because he didn't get along with my INFJ Mother at ALL and left after new house rules were made... though you'd think an ESTJ would understand the need for rules according to their neuro scientific makeup and the stereotypes associated with them as such. And his fellow dislike of my Rule setting ISTJ stepfather is another weird factor. But back to the point. Do you have any better a relationship with your brother now??
Interesting! Thanks for the reply. Me and my brother will stick up for each other, and we will encourage in an off hands way (think, 'good luck bro!', rather than, 'hey let me know if i can help out with xyz'). But we don't involve each other in our decision making, in other words we don't exchange much more than pleasantries. It works well this way. I know we have each others backs in a crisis because we believe that's what family does, but we don't take any preventative steps to help each other because we know we will just end up frustrating things. It's sad but probably a good outcome.
I briefly considered trying to contact my estranged brother to find out his type. But it was a big can of worms when he left don't wanna reopen it. even if I'm kinda interested in the socionic implications of what he left for. Though it's entirely possible he was just a rebellious teen. I was too in my own very subtle way. because who isn't I liked my INFJ mother however and he did much so far as I could tell. ESTJ or something along those lines may make sense.
Just got dumped. This put so many of my thoughts into perspective. Knowing what I know now, I think I can walk away with my head up.
Conflictors are interesting people who do what you can only dream of doing. Maybe even looking how you ideally want to. But as you spend more time with them, their flaws spring up on you and they become insufferable. I think they're good relations if you spend a long time apart before reuniting. Avoid in everyday living.
One thing on this Michael, when Consistent is not necessarily 'consistently on high', e.g. the Leading and Demonstrative. It can also be 'consistently on low', e.g. the Vulnerable and Suggestive. The point is not the level at which they are operating, but rather that the level does not fluctuate depending on the situation.
You are one of favorite youtubers Michael!! I tell all my friends about your videos!!!
I really loved the fact that you're exploring more of Socionics now! For the crowd is so timid and afraid of going into the water.
But I now remember that you have a photo of a smiling Nietzsche. If you're reading this, it'll be a wonderful thing if you could give a link to that image.
I've been trying so hard to find it but couldn't. So, it'd be a really big help.
s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/48/d9/81/48d9818015091071bb53aab803a19c10.jpg
Also you got it wrong on Bold Cautious. Its the functions that share the Extroversion/Introversion of the Leading function that are the Bold ones, not the Rationality/Irrationality. That's why you thought they were the same as Demand/Supply!
Then does his theory become wrong that role dominates over other's creative?
in pierce's own words: "good heavens he finally made another video"XD
Wish this wasn't the last Socionics video you made. I really appreciate your explanations
Fantastic. The Ti classifications are a bit above me and a chore to deal with(INTJ). But I'm sure I'll learn them and integrate them into my language and progress as you have. And I very much look forward to your further socionic videos.
I'm an INTP and this look over complex to me too coming from MBTI.
Well, I got a grasp of it...
Excellent video! Hoping that there's more to come, perhaps going through every relation.
Outstanding!! So much clarity and humor
7:00
14:55
Michael, I am not sure if you are aware of this but you have one more Revisting video to do: ESFP. I'm not making any demands but please......do it! I've been waiting forever.
All I know is the Steve Irwin was an ESFP so I automatically adore this type if the passion, enthusiasm and general aliveness is common amongst them.
It's a great idea to do the interrelationship videos individually per type. Just do the INTJ video first please. Do you plan to do intj conflict, intj supervision, intj benefit, etc? Or just one long video?
Anyway, can't wait.
Btw love your sense of humor at the start of the video, hahah so cute
Holy shit i love your intros
that conflict in depth video still in the cards?
I've heard of ENFPs and ISTJs being conflicting and ive heard of them being their duality. Which is it? I'm curious to hear because my fiance is an ISTJ and I'm an ENFP.
LittleBirdy1 according to socionics, you both make up the duality pair! Those saying they conflict may be more prone to using MBTI and the four letters only without delving into cognitive function makeup and how they may theoretically complement one another
LittleBirdy1 ENFP conflicts with ISTP, but in Socionics ISTP is written as ISTj and ISTJ as ISTp. You first have be aware if the person is Socionics literate or not because this can get confusing.
Just curious, how's your relationship doing? Tbh i think that "duals" relationship are bullshit and actually the most frustration and unfulfillment you can get (the only pro is that you understand each other's language), way more than conflict. So I'd be happy if you'd let me know how it's going for you? I'm really intrigued, because i could never imagine myself being in a close, intimate dual relationship.
Hahaha your lead/creative and role/vulnerable analogies are priceless. Plus, up till now, I didn't even realize that it was Fe advice that ESTJs would occasionally offer me. Ultra. Cringe.
But Lapis and Jasper, eh? :D it strikes me that, post-fusion, the extroverted partner was totally sold on it while not so much for the introverted partner. I would liken it to Hegel's master-slave dialectic in its most oppressive form.
Would you consider covering benefit relations after you are done with conflict relations? Thanks!
INTj (korrigiert in 2024: INTp) and ESFj are conflictors? Not duals?
Sorry, I'm using MBTI lettering -- so it would be INTp in Socionics. INTp and ESFj are conflictors -- which is the same as saying INTJ and ESFJ are conflictors.
I understand shit
@@MichaelPiercePhilosophy Socionics does'nt use MBTI-
Lettering
Could you break every component of functions down into their pieces? Sensing-Intuition, Thinking-Feeling, Introversion-Extroversion? Have you already?
My very first videos have to do with that:
ua-cam.com/video/0myAXoCXP58/v-deo.html
Also, this playlist might help:
ua-cam.com/video/5uKaFveOhXY/v-deo.html
Yay! New video!
What is the name of the opening music?
Overture to Egmont
Thank you!
6:59
The bold functions share the attitude (ie extraversion or introversion) with the leading function, rather than the same rationality. Other than that, great video! It's nice to see some more socionics.
Ahem. 22:15
Love your videos :-)
Great Video's!!!
Awesome!!!!
Although Michael identifies himself as an INFJ, that does not mean that his Socionics type will translate into INFp. I seriously doubt he's Te-vulnerable. Consider INFj or even INTp instead.
very interesting
This vid is awesome
Damn, first as fuck
hella
I thought infj was Ni Fe Ti Se
he's using mbti names, probably out of habit
Socionics is an eight function model; all types "have" all eight functions. The four Valued functions correspond to MBTI's four functions, so for an INFJ they would indeed be Ni Fe Ti Se. When he talks about Te and Si in INFJs, that's when he's reaching into socionics' Subdued functions, which MBTI just doesn't deal with. It also doesn't help that socionics writes the functions of an INFJ in the order Ni Fe Te Si Se Ti Ne Fi, but the order itself is somewhat arbitary, NOT meant to represent descending facility; the important thing is that socionic' description of how Ti and Se work in INFJs is pretty much analogous to what MBTI calls "tertiary" and "inferior". Socionics then adds four more descriptions: how INFJs relate to Ne, Fi, Te, and Si.