On Crafting: It's hard to design because the stated objective is "let players create precisely what they want" However, shift the objective into "give magic item options" and it can become much simpler Instead of setting out to find an Efreeti Heart to forge a Flametongue, players come across an Efreeti Heart. The DM states that, with a day of crafting, they can create one of the following: a Flametongue, an Armor of Fire Resistance or a Wand of Fireballs Done. It is not an actual system because it's more like the DM giving loot options to the party, but in that simplicity lies its strength
If we go deeper into the crafting fantasy, we can play around with: - Varying costs: maybe converting the Efreeti Heart into a Wand of Fireballs requires extra money vs the other options - Skill Checks: Maybe players need to make an Arcana Check with rising difficulties depending on the object (Flametongue DC 10, Armor DC 15, Wand DC 20). If a player rolls an 18, they can't make the wand, but can still choose one of the other two - Tool Proficiencies: Maybe tool proficiencies can give advantage to a roll if it makes sense. Got Woodcarver tool proficiency? You get advantage on the Arcana Check for the Wand. Got Smithing Tools? Advantage for the Flametongue and for the Armor of Fire Resistance, if it's made of metal - Roll With the Mistakes: Like DIY in real life, sometimes you make mistakes and you gotta roll with it. Maybe if you roll poorly on the Arcana check you fail and damage the materials - meaning you can try again, but with disadvantage. Or you can negotiate with the DM to make a worse version of the magic item you wanted (Wand of Fireballs with only 3 charges, or maybe the Armor of Resistance requires spending a reaction to activate its property, etc.). Who knows, maybe in the future you will find loot that will let you try to retry the check and repair your item
The biggest issue I find with crafting is that there is only ever one person at the table who wants to engage. Sometimes it's the DM who has a cool idea for a crafting system, but the players don't care. Sometimes it's a player that wants to make a thing, and the DM has to do homework to figure out what that should entail. The homeworked solution usually doesn't fit what the player wants and so the DM says, "Ok well you make it" and no one is satisfied
Yeah, agree. I use downtime sessions (which have their own issues) to deal with it, which I think of as quintessential lazy-GMing. It comes from Blades in the Dark. It uses its own mechanics and structures activities like healing, finding the next mission, crafting, training, dealing with the consequences of the past mission, etc. into mini-adventures. Something like crafting a +1 sword that glows in the presence of enemies would be spaced out over a number of downtime sessions. During sessions the player rolls a skill check to determine the degree of success. For example, if they need runes scribed into the blade they could roll to track down the hermit who knows them, roll to persuade them, roll to acquire the materials, etc. While they're doing that another character might be meeting with a contact to get the next mission, and two characters might be trying to offload a well-known magic item without making a stir. Everything they do during downtime generates more hooks than you can ever follow-up on, amazing mini-encounters, and bunches of npcs. You have to be all in and your players have to be ready to co-create and be interested in each others' stories, though. I've had groups that wanted to do downtime more than regular play and others that hated it.
I have been inspired by Downtime in Zyan's list of activities and Blades in the Dark's 2x downtime activities after each score. I feel like there's something in there for everyone, including carousing for characters without long -term ambitions. I also like that it is an essential system in BitD so that I am forced to stop and give time for the characters to rest. Modern adventure pacing doesn't really give time to breathe (do I craft healing potions or stop the doomsday cult's ritual?) so being able to add in longer breaks is essential.
I'm that one player, lol I came across an article by the Angry GM about crafting, which eventually lead me to the ToolCraft system that was put out by Dump Stat Adventures. In our tomb of annihilation game, there are two of us using it. For us, its tons of fun, as its not so crunchy that it gets distracting and it doesnt bog down the table. For the games I run, i make it an option for anyone who wants to use it. So, i have a few players that do, and a few that dont. I'll tell anyone who wants to use it that its their responsibility to know their tools and the crafting mechanics because i will probably forget how they work. Anyway, just my two coppers worth. Crafting can be fun, but only if it actually contributes to the gameplay and to the party as a whole. Bonus points: I'm playing a Blood Hunter in ToA. I usually play a spellcaster. Using a crafting system like ToolCraft gives my character the ability to get some genuine utility without having to multiclass. He currently has proficiency on the alchemist supplies, poisoner’s kit, and the Healer’s Kit, so he is quite useful outside of combat.
In my campaign I gave out evolving magic items to the PCs. When they hit a milestone in the campaign (like finishing a major arc) their magic items evolving. I give each players 2-3 options how their magic item could evolve, and they choose their favourite new property.
The crafting discussion reminded me of a 4e game I played in where my character had finally recovered my father's wizard staff. Sometime later we had killed a dragon and among the loot was an upgraded staff. And back in 4e those upgrades were a big part of characters staying on the difficulty curve of the game. It was a feels bad moment realizing I needed to choose between my character's story and the gameplay. To his credit, the DM realized the issue and came up with some fiction about a portion of the draconic soul was absorbed into my father's staff to upgrade it. so all's well that ends well, but an important lesson I tried to internalize later when I was on the other side of the screen
Excellent advice on the random encounters! I wish I knew this a month ago when I ran a session which turned out to be totally boring because none of the random encounters 'happened' or delivered exciting situations :-) .
Downtime is another resource the players should all have in equal measure. In my campaign I require the players spend downtime in order to level up. This does two things for me; first, my world gets to catch up with what the players have done. Factions can learn about their antics and respond, rulers can send invitations or bounties, and villains who escaped get a chance to grow in power to challenge them again in the future. Second, my players get to decide how they spend their time and gold. Some players want to craft items, some want to further their personal goals, others want to build a stronghold. The downtime rules work pretty well for this when you exit the pace set by "normal adventuring time" and enter "montage fantasy time." Been a huge boon for my campaign
I think it's so sick that you and your community have done this cool work around Obsidian. As someone who likes the organization of Obsidian but is not a strong coder, having all this download, copy/paste, drag and drop type material for Obsidian is suuuuuper nice.
Here are my general crafting guidelines across systems and settings, especially PbtA, Cthulhu, and Shadowdark, but primarily Blades in the Dark/Scum and Villainy: 1. Magic/tech is rare, expensive, and specialized 2. You can find half of the stuff and you can craft half of the stuff 3. Downtime is part of most sessions As long as world reinforces the idea that magic or high tech is limited, it's expected that you might craft unique items. When you have a downtime session characters are doing things to improve themselve, their connections, etc. Crafting slips neatly in there.
When it comes to buying and crafting magic items, there have been two 3rd party products that hit what I'm interested in and recommend. My absolute favorite product is the Armorer's Handbook by heavyarms, which allows characters to slowly upgrade their weapons and armor by spending all the gold they get for something they actually want. You slowly add small bonuses to weapons, with each bonus of the same tier getting more expensive as the stack on top of each other. That way you both make meaningful choices what trait you value in a piece of gear (do you want the +1 to hit bonus or the increased crit range more) and you can't get the really higher power stuff until you're at the level where you get enough gold for it to make sense (Can't make the weapon's damage dice explode until you can spend at least 1000 gp in one go). And because it (only) works on mundane equipment, it means you can stick with your father's heirloom sword from your backstory and just upgrade it into the legendary weapon you'd want to use at level 10 etc. Heliana's Guide to Monster Hunting has what I'd want for crafting, primarily in how harvesting monster parts works and how they relate to crafting specific items. It is so elegantly implemented that they have the entire SRD magic item list covered in a table of a few pages. I disagree a bit with the variation of the crafting results (items getting boons or banes depending on a skill check), but that is easily smoothed over (and encouraged in the text). By tying certain rarity items to specific components you can only get from certain CR level creatures, you keep the bigger items out of reach until the point where they would show up naturally anyway.
I'm a fan of having crafting available and accessing it as a player. Taking your insights to heart, I will be using crafting to allow players to create some unique item that doesn't easily come from a reskin, OR as a "fidget" for their characters. "During a long rest , I tinker with xx for 2 hours." To facilitate this, I'll drop targeted crafting materials for them.
The best way I have seen to handle "crafting" magic weapons in play and in running d&d is to have weapons that scale with the character. A dragon longsword that gets stronger with dragon kills, a family heirloom bow that gets stronger with killing select NPCs, a ring that gains properties as you make alliances, etc
From a crafting system stand point I enjoy the idea of scaling up items too, with the caveat that either the character scales in power or their items scale, but not both. To be fair, I have systems other than super heroic games like D&D 5e in mind.
I've never really tackled crafting in any meaningful way, but i do have a small trick for customizing items, which others may find handy. When i know what style of weapon my player wants (short sword, bow, etc.), I'll put a magic version into loot that has empty slots, two or three spaces that can fit enchanted gems in the handle. These gems can be standard Ioun stones, or gems of the GM's creation, and when they're set in the weapon, the whole thing can be attuned to using one slot instead of one per stone. Later, the stones can be switched out and the weapon re-attuned to, so the PC can keep their special item and keep up with the game.
That's a neat style. The weapon is basically just an empty base for customizable cartridges to mix and match. The player can have whatever weapon type they prefer, but avoid the issue of feeling guilty for swapping out the new item. It also makes future treasure easier, since it can just be alternate cartridges they can try. Eventually they'll figure out their preferred combo and that's when you probably slow down on those items for loot.
Lots of great points about crafting and its pitfalls. I especially agree with the notion that crafting systems can easily either (a) make every other method of item acquisition obsolete or (b) end up being redundant. A good example of (a) is "Dark Cloud": the weapons you craft are much more powerful than the weapons you can find or buy. A good example of (b), meanwhile, is low-level World of Warcraft: the weapons and armor you can craft are much weaker than the weapons and armor you receive as rewards for the story quests. In 5e, I don't think I've ever personally witnessed players losing motivation because they had already acquired the "best in slot" item, but I can see how it would happen in groups that run a more "dungeon crawl" style of campaign.
A good way to get rid of quests the players rejected is to have an NPC party take that quest and (on a roll) win the rumored treasure or nearly get wiped out. Eventually, the NPCs could become rivals & fight the PCs with treasures the PCs rejected.
Yes. Exactly on crafting. You put into the words that I haven't been able to. Everyone's idea of it is so different that it ends up not being satisfying. I think crafting is better served looking through the lens of the material drops to help the narrative move forward. You fight a young dragon. You can get hide, scales, and blood. That either converts into GP, or it opens up recipes with those. But in the end, it's all leading to the same destination: loot upgrades. But for the 5e environment, it really needs to be abstracted and satisfying. How do you do that?
Probably the best game for crafting is Ars Magica, if you include researching new spells, writing new books, building out your lab, etc. under crafting. But this works because it's a key part of the gameplay loop as one of the central paths of character advancement. And AM works on the principle of troupe play: each player has a mage character, but also other 'companion' characters, like a knight, minstrel, priest, or just a man-at-arms or cook. In any given scenario/adventure, one, or at most two, players use their mage character and the others play their non-mage ones, while their mage characters stay home and craft/research. Then in the next scenario, another player plays their mage, and the rest all play their companions, turn-and-turn-about. This allows a mage to spend months off crafting while the player still participates in the ongoing game. So crafting works brilliantly in AM, but as far more than as an add-on to the game.
I think crafting just allows for more fun loot than just drops. It's one thing to kill the Efreeti and get a sword, but to get the Efreeti heart and learn that you can forge that into something, that can almost become a quest on its own, and maybe the party sits down and talks about maybe a magical item that one player wants, but it requires a branch from the feywild, so they decide to go into the feywild to help their buddy out. Crafting is just dynamic loot that gives choice and meaning and I've always loved a really well thought out crafting system. Especially if you get really attached to your weapon and your DM let's you augment it. So you do get your flametongue weapon, but then you stumble across a magical gemstone and you can attach it to the sword through another little sidequest and power it up a bit more so that it scales with you. Someone else commented about using skill checks and tool proficiency and if you roll poorly, having a slightly worse version and I think that's also a super cool idea, and maybe you can go on another little adventure to try to correct your mistake, etc. It's definitely not for every campaign but I'd love it in mine.
Call of Cthulhu! That bundle looks great! I have many of the books already, so I merely passed the link along to friends. I have used the Lazy DM methods to write Call of Cthulhu scenarios and it works well. If you wind up running something from the system, I would love to hear your thoughts in a future video.
Crafting = rerolls on and additions to random loot tables. This does not disrupt the core gameplay loop of adventuring to get treasure. And it is a method that works everywhere it is allowed to be used: gambling / gatcha / hacking your brain. You can also incorporate hero points as a way to get an additional roll on the random loot table ("I got a hero point for playing my character in a way that really helped the emerging narrative and I played with such tactical expertise that I did not have to use my hero point to overcome a death saving throw"). This way you are rewarding what you want (dramatic roleplaying and smart tactics). And you are adding in tension (should I use my hero point and lose my chance at getting better loot)
Magic items have really suffered in the transition to 5e from 3e and 4e, now that character abilities are the main draw and multiclassing/optimization are expected. Back in older editions, characters had a lot of dead levels and not much character progression, so even amulets of health and bracers of protection were standard kit to bolster characters against damage. Now, HP is so heavily front loaded that players can essentially tank through most of the damage they receive and only get nervous if they are constantly being incapacitated in combat. Not that I think it’s inherently better to go back to the constant magic item grind of 3e and pathfinder 1e, but magic items used to be the point of adventuring, not necessarily leveling up.
Side note: For real nice set of file rename management tools... if you use windows... Is the Power Toys app's 'PowerRename' tool. It has a batch extension change ability. There is a hundred other tools in this too that when incorporated at the right time and place will up your DM prep game. I can't tell you how many times I've used the text extractor OCR feature (think copy and paste to your pace buffer from images) as Well is the image resizer utility, and even using it to help define reusable window layouts. So good.
You mentioned things getting locked up in PDFs. Definitely check out this text extractor. I even taken photos of stuff I don't have digital copies but PDFs that have image text oftentimes I just do the text extractor screen grab off the PDFs. Or if I have pictures I use the text extractor on the images that I took a picture of the book. It's super handy. The tool also has a paste as plain text ability so it's like you're using Google products I used to open up Chrome emails just so I could paste text without format and then recopy it out of there Now it's built into my OS using power toys. And as an aside there is a another app called DevToys that has markdown editor and preview tools inside of it too. Reach out to me If you want to know more about it you're running any trouble with any of those.
The dungeon dudes have talked about a system that they're working on where you need formulas and recipes but otherwise can do most of the work in just a moment with very specific monster parts and mundane materials. You should look into their crafting system, it looks like it'll be a lot of fun
The book Heliana's Guide to Monster Hunting from Jess Jackdaw has a pretty good streamlined crafting system to go along with the monster hunting and parts harvesting systems the book focused on.
I think you could make rolling the same thing twice on a random encounter table be interesting. If, for instance, you roll two groups of bandits, they could be from different gangs and they're bartering. Or if you roll two packs of wolves, the party could have walked into the middle of what was going to be a bloody territory dispute.
Hmm I havent seen these shows in my feed for awhile. I am sad because of that. I love these shows. More then the Eldritch lore cast. It has more info to help me. Lore cast is more news show and has its own use.
I remember my friends and I having plenty of fun with the crafting rules in 3.5e D&D. Granted, it was just a matter of getting enough money to essentially buy the item you wanted (there may have been time constraints but we never paid attention to those.) But we'd go questing for the gold until we had enough to buy the Magic Thing we wanted, unless we happened to find something better along the way. The more I think about that system and compare it to 5e, I think the fact that 3.5e's math was NOT "flattened" helped all this, since no matter how coolan item you got or how easy you got it, the DM could always just throw monsters at you that had higher AC, more HP, etc to keep things challenging. In 5e, that becomes a lot more transparent because things don't scale endlessly like they used to. I say this as someone who very much enjoys the flattened math of 5e (or the even more flat math of Shadowdark), but I guess that idea runs counter to being able to custom craft whatever your heart desires.
Best “crafting” rules is Crown & Skull hero points system. Build out any equipment, spell, or skills that your player cares about. Doesn’t leave plyers behind, because the system lets them focus on what they care most.
I love Obsidian.... I'm going to buy the dread thingonomicon to add to my Vault Fun fact: dnd beyond posts all their books in Markdown. I'm slowly copypasta the content that I've purchased (One page at a time...yay) into my Vault. It takes a bit of clean up (the heading URLs come before the headings, so those Need to be swapped...and the artwork is just a link to the art in dndbeyond ) but once it's there and a bit organized, I can quickly and easily Access and reference my DNDbeyond materials, even if I'm offline. Thanks for the info on these resources. I'll take all the help I can get
Couple of things I'd toss in regarding the crafting: Optimising the fun out of gameplay is to go the Cypher route and make craftable items one-use only. You still have the issue of someone possibly trying to make 100 healing potions, but it saves the GM a big headache if they accidentally give the party or character a very overpowered item. If it's ridiculously overpowered, it doesn't matter because it's a one and done. Additionally, if it's underpowered, the party aren't lugging it around because they can fire and forget and then be free to be excited about the next one. The other thing that I think feeds into crafting problems is the money problem. What do do with gold is a massive problem I don't think any RPG has really figured out unless they go hard on an economy which few designers and GMs are inclined to do, but - like adventure design in DnD at 16th+ level, it all starts to come loose at the seams as characters start accruing vast amounts of wealth. What to do with that wealth - use it to solve a problem - is an obvious response from a player. It would be interesting to hear what thoughts you have on this one too if it can be squeezed into a show!
The crafted item problem comes up with all good magic items; if the player and DM have made the item meaningful, it's hard to replace them with something new. The answer is having fans and followers and protoges and relatives. As in the real world, legendary artifacts should be bequeathed; something has gone terribly wrong in your life if you're selling the sword you used to slay the great dragon of the Molten Vale. Reforging is another option; then the legend of your old weapon becomes part of the story of the new one.
Long reply re: crafting. There are ways to make crafting work, as evidenced by systems that DO have it, and they generally have the same types of systems. The problem with rpg crafting is that you often need 2 systems and neither can be hyper focused in the rules because although the DM's special rulings can allow for tailor made crafting items, those don't work for other characters and some of the items used might not be in both campaigns. The problem with d&d crafting is the same as that of material components for spells: either it's tied to a monetary value, which is the antithesis of crafting because "why not just buy for those prices?" or the items aren't necessarily going to appear. Instead you need key monsters that have harvestable craftable items (cave crawlers have an EXCELLENT bit of flavor text that mentions rope, alcohol, and shell for armor), which upon discovery can be used to craft/unlock items. the items should also be fairly "of level" and unique giving you customization outside of character. I.e. You can craft a set of plate from this thing with fire resistance but 1 less ac, and a different monster might give you acid resistance and not have the penalty for you ac, and a third set might give you a once a day shield spell and a third doesn't give disadvantage on stealth, all from different monsters, but also all set to a monster, which makes monster hunting far more interesting and a game unto itself. The second crafting system is based on alchemy, and you craft consumables but you have recipes from potions, "spells in a bottle", etc. and the formulas are general. Assign ingredients as types and the more powerful the item the more ingredients and the higher DC. A simple flash fire or cantrip level consumable might take 2 ingredients and a dc10, but a level 4 spell might require 8 ingredients and have a DC 15. And ingredients should be vague and tied to creature type. There's like 10-14 of them. You're more than likely to encounter most of them during your adventure. If that's not appealing, pick 8 elements and assign 1-2 of them to each creature at random and harvest as a survival roll with a DC 13. Failure means your get nothing, pass gets you one of the types, critical success gets you 2. These aren't uncommon systems, it's just that current D&D and Rpg's have blinders of sorts to the crafting problem, and they focus on the wrong aspects.
I appreciate all of your ideas on how to incorporate time saving files into things like obsidian, but I have zero background with tech/coding things. For someone who would like to start, but doesn't know what he doesn't know, where do you begin?
My favorite way of providing specific magic items is to let PCs donate treasure to their church & get a vision of where to find that item. But they can’t just leaf thru the Sears Wishbook & circle what they want. They have to research, say, magic swords & learn about three random ones, & then they can pray for one of them.
The only sort of crafting i approve of is finding monster parts & exotic plants that can be brewed into potions. It gives players a choice in what kind they get.
I was driving and a random call must’ve come in at the exact moment I exited Spotify to practice an intro to a session I was planning. So for about 20 seconds some person heard my countess npc explaining how brazen thugs broke into her place and stole a statuette. To my surprise I hear a, “Huh?”, from the car speakers. I quickly ended the call and later checked my recent calls and all that and can’t figure out who it was, but I’m sad that they didn’t seem to understand the urgency of the countess’ plea and accept the quest.
Sly - I'm always concerned when you try to impose limits. Clerics don't have to be healers and players should not be forced to have one. If a group wants to craft healing potions, 5... 10... whatever, so what. You are a DM with infinite monsters and monsters with amazing abilities. As a DM I'm not trying to cheat them out of crafting. Pls note however, whilst I often disagree on your limits (pass without trace etc) , I am a fan of your channel, I use your tools and tips and I support your Kickstarter.
Hate the prices on magic items, hated the impetus and demand that Magic Items had to have an economy simply because a price was placed on the item in 3.X/PF. If you are going to craft in my world you have to learn it through a schema/recipe which is a drop more often than not and the rarity for the schema is one level higher than the rarity of the item (yes, that means you can't craft legendary items in my games, mostly). Then I have a list of ingredients that are available, and you have to either craft the item or be present while it is being crafted if you don't have the skills, that means you can't just buy an item off the shelf and enchant it. Each item has a guideline recipe too and a roll involved (this includes mundane items). So far this has worked well, if you craft it is downtime (exceptions for some minor things apply). I don't simply abstract it all with a gp value cost. If the material is not available it literally isn't available, meaning you don't have it in your inventory.
I think the biggest problem with codifying crafting is that the GM has to adjust and homogenize crafting times and gold costs to enable every player to do what they want with downtime periods. As in, the GM can’t just arbitrarily pick an amount of down time like 4 weeks, because crafting a magic sword might take 5 but crafting a bow might take 3 so the GM can accidentally bias the game against one player if they don’t factor in an entire crafting chapter. And the same is true of gold, because under a codified rule system, a GM has to memorize every official use for gold to determine exactly how much they should hand out for rewards.
I see your point, but if you are going to have a crafting system it should be codified in that the rules are consistent across the board. As far as component costs (whether in effort, resources or coin) it should be in proportion to the power of the item, but also I think an element of chance is important. It really is a matter of how rare magic is in your chosen system, and whether or not crafting is a key element in that system. I think tacking on a crafting system instead of developing the game with crafting as an essential feature from the beginning is where most systems ultimately fail.
What if the mages who make items don't just build them for one big lump sum, but rather require a subscription fee? Instead of one payment of 24,000 gp, you pay 2,000 gp per week or it's bricked? Magic Items As A Service...
I think crafting systems in any game have the problem that the things you can craft are either a) almost useless or b) practically mandatory. The reason for that is that - this being a game - you can't levy costs on the crafting that result in any serious real world expenditure (of either time or money). And as such, any player can craft anything they really want to have.
Hello! I clicked on your video specifically for your thoughts on crafting. It is definitely a tricky subsystem to include in a game and have it feel enjoyable. I feel I have possibly cracked the code when it comes to crafting (essentially it is a vital component of my game from the beginning), but one aspect is more troublesome than others. When I discuss crafting with my people they invariably make it clear that there should be some element of collecting which they find appealing. Having a variety of component types, and styles, hues, etc. to seek out and gather and/or loot is part of the fun, and I agree with them. Tracking this is easier to achieve in a video game or with an online character sheet perhaps, but not so easy for us play-in-person, pen-and-paper types who are trying to maintain a clear and concise character sheet. I have considered a few approaches including a card system (expensive), tokens (expensive and cumbersome), or a separate tracking sheet dedicated to crafting (restrictive), but ultimately there is no perfect solution.
Your party is downing health potions like water? Gee, seems like those are addictive and people adapt fast to them so they need to take more. Also, somehow the party have almost depleted the resources for making them, which niw have become scarce and valuable. So they also attracted the attention of the local criminals, who now try to get their hands on the party's supply of potions.
What if you just never find loot without having to do some comissioning/crafting? What if we are looking at the problem backwards and the issue is convienient loot? What if you always get the heart of the efreeti or the hand of the Demon Bathomak and you have to take that and turn it into the item you want. It solves all the problems presented here while also solving the "conveniently useful" loot issue. I haven't actually tried this, but it sounds cool to me.
Of course, I'd be using my crafting system, where you only need one specific material and either the capability or the money to hire someone to make the item for you. Make it simple. It's worked great for consumables so far, so I think it could be cool for non-consumables. It does somewhat assume a different playstyle than 5e wants though. My game has periods of downtime and accommodates longer time pressures like seiges. Gives players time to do things like craft items, send letters to allies, and the like.
See I have a problem with throw away magic items. I think that what the player gets should not be replaced so much. In the real world we keep our own stuff as long as possible.
I think at least part of the discussion on "crafting: good / crafting: bad" is born of a misunderstanding on the meaning of "crafting". You said it yourself at around 28 minutes 30-something "If my player says "I want a sword that casts Fireball".", as well as the Borderlands dev quote you gave before that. That statement is predicated on the definition of "crafting system" as a set of rules that allows the final user of the item (i.e. the player) to add a new, until then inexistent item to the items list that does whatever they want it to do. In other words, that's a system to place part of the GM's power to will things into existence (i.e. homebrewing xD) in the hands of the players. What I think most of the GMs and players that I have spoken to mean by "crafting" is a set of guidelines to allow the final user of a magic item to depend less on chance (or the GM) in their arsenal. I speak as a player of mostly martial characters (we get shit other than a kick in the noggin xD), here, and also as a player who finds the vast majority of magical items in DnD to be, though powerful, fundamentally boring to use, so for me having a system that saves me the frustration of having my hopes of an exciting item dashed by the divving out of the loot is *key* to my enjoyment of my character. Case in point, my favourite 5e item pretty much in existence is the Rod of Retribution, that's an item that I'll probably never tire to use because I just find it fun. There is another, GM-side, reason to have a crafting system (in its second definition that I gave earlier) in your game; it is extremely easy to rig a system that generates adventure hooks for you. In other words, free filler content for your players to cut their teeth on while you have the BBEG do BBEG-business in the background ^^ As a (mostly forever) GM, I have used crafting systems as a tool to allow the players to do most of the adventure hook devising for me. EDIT: added the following, because I forgot it "in the keyboard", so to speak, like a pilloc xD In addition to control over gameplay, crafting gives players control over the narrative of an item and creates emotional investment. Item X, whatever it is, exists because *we* the group made the conscious decision of putting the work in for it, rather than receiving it "from above".
Enjoyed the meta-discussion regarding crafting! Personally I roll mostly for loot, but add some seed loot that progresses the story or the PC’s story. You’re right though-it’s not perfect.
The trouble with crafting -- thanks for covering this, Mike! I completely agree. I don't want crafting (or magic shops) in my pen-and-paper RPGing, because I don't want play to just turn into a grind for gold and crafting materials. I'm here to tell adventure stories together, not to fetishize gear and character builds.
To me, this is hand waving and not item crafting, gathering resources, quality found, working the materials based off skill level or ability, etc etc. I still haven't found one that hits this other than video games
I never understood the crafting obsession. If you want cool stuff, go hunt for it. If the stuff you find isn't to your liking, find someone to trade for it. As aDM, I'm not giving you weeks or months of downtime anyway. Powerful magic items are created by my own retired PCs.
I disagree with the example of the Flametongue requiring the heart of an Efreet in which you should have just given it as loot in the first place. First, for the crafting to be meaningful, there shouldn't be another means of getting it. No Flametongue exists in this world (or was destroyed, lost its power, etc.) so finding it randomly isn't an option. Second, if a player is interested in crafting it then this can become a part of their character motivation requiring several steps. They have to find the original Flametongue that has lost its power and infuse it with the heart of an Efreet. I don't know if it should apply to every magic item or only for the special "heirloom" items that personal story arcs can be based around. I will definitely agree that this is a tough problem to solve because of how many different directions your game can go depending on how crafting is implemented.
Giving back to the community - Sly Flourish & his wife are such wonderful people. Genuine salt of the earth gamer folk.
As a teacher recipient, I concur. I’m happy to have supported him personally in the past, and now I can share that with my students run D&D club!
On Crafting:
It's hard to design because the stated objective is "let players create precisely what they want"
However, shift the objective into "give magic item options" and it can become much simpler
Instead of setting out to find an Efreeti Heart to forge a Flametongue, players come across an Efreeti Heart. The DM states that, with a day of crafting, they can create one of the following: a Flametongue, an Armor of Fire Resistance or a Wand of Fireballs
Done. It is not an actual system because it's more like the DM giving loot options to the party, but in that simplicity lies its strength
If we go deeper into the crafting fantasy, we can play around with:
- Varying costs: maybe converting the Efreeti Heart into a Wand of Fireballs requires extra money vs the other options
- Skill Checks: Maybe players need to make an Arcana Check with rising difficulties depending on the object (Flametongue DC 10, Armor DC 15, Wand DC 20). If a player rolls an 18, they can't make the wand, but can still choose one of the other two
- Tool Proficiencies: Maybe tool proficiencies can give advantage to a roll if it makes sense. Got Woodcarver tool proficiency? You get advantage on the Arcana Check for the Wand. Got Smithing Tools? Advantage for the Flametongue and for the Armor of Fire Resistance, if it's made of metal
- Roll With the Mistakes: Like DIY in real life, sometimes you make mistakes and you gotta roll with it. Maybe if you roll poorly on the Arcana check you fail and damage the materials - meaning you can try again, but with disadvantage. Or you can negotiate with the DM to make a worse version of the magic item you wanted (Wand of Fireballs with only 3 charges, or maybe the Armor of Resistance requires spending a reaction to activate its property, etc.). Who knows, maybe in the future you will find loot that will let you try to retry the check and repair your item
In regards to giving back to communities running RPGs- Mike, you're a treasure, and the hobby is better for having you. Proud to be a patron.
Man, this one is extra great. So many good insights in this episode.
The biggest issue I find with crafting is that there is only ever one person at the table who wants to engage. Sometimes it's the DM who has a cool idea for a crafting system, but the players don't care. Sometimes it's a player that wants to make a thing, and the DM has to do homework to figure out what that should entail. The homeworked solution usually doesn't fit what the player wants and so the DM says, "Ok well you make it" and no one is satisfied
Yeah, agree. I use downtime sessions (which have their own issues) to deal with it, which I think of as quintessential lazy-GMing. It comes from Blades in the Dark. It uses its own mechanics and structures activities like healing, finding the next mission, crafting, training, dealing with the consequences of the past mission, etc. into mini-adventures. Something like crafting a +1 sword that glows in the presence of enemies would be spaced out over a number of downtime sessions. During sessions the player rolls a skill check to determine the degree of success. For example, if they need runes scribed into the blade they could roll to track down the hermit who knows them, roll to persuade them, roll to acquire the materials, etc. While they're doing that another character might be meeting with a contact to get the next mission, and two characters might be trying to offload a well-known magic item without making a stir. Everything they do during downtime generates more hooks than you can ever follow-up on, amazing mini-encounters, and bunches of npcs. You have to be all in and your players have to be ready to co-create and be interested in each others' stories, though. I've had groups that wanted to do downtime more than regular play and others that hated it.
I have been inspired by Downtime in Zyan's list of activities and Blades in the Dark's 2x downtime activities after each score. I feel like there's something in there for everyone, including carousing for characters without long -term ambitions. I also like that it is an essential system in BitD so that I am forced to stop and give time for the characters to rest. Modern adventure pacing doesn't really give time to breathe (do I craft healing potions or stop the doomsday cult's ritual?) so being able to add in longer breaks is essential.
@@ichifish I didn't see your comment while typing mine but interesting to see both of us referencing Blades in the Dark.
I'm that one player, lol
I came across an article by the Angry GM about crafting, which eventually lead me to the ToolCraft system that was put out by Dump Stat Adventures.
In our tomb of annihilation game, there are two of us using it. For us, its tons of fun, as its not so crunchy that it gets distracting and it doesnt bog down the table.
For the games I run, i make it an option for anyone who wants to use it. So, i have a few players that do, and a few that dont. I'll tell anyone who wants to use it that its their responsibility to know their tools and the crafting mechanics because i will probably forget how they work.
Anyway, just my two coppers worth. Crafting can be fun, but only if it actually contributes to the gameplay and to the party as a whole.
Bonus points: I'm playing a Blood Hunter in ToA. I usually play a spellcaster. Using a crafting system like ToolCraft gives my character the ability to get some genuine utility without having to multiclass. He currently has proficiency on the alchemist supplies, poisoner’s kit, and the Healer’s Kit, so he is quite useful outside of combat.
I want to thank you. Yesterday I was sick and exhausted but I was still able to put on a decent game because of Return of the Lazy DM.
The random encounter table section really inspired me
In my campaign I gave out evolving magic items to the PCs. When they hit a milestone in the campaign (like finishing a major arc) their magic items evolving. I give each players 2-3 options how their magic item could evolve, and they choose their favourite new property.
Thanks for putting into words what I've been thinking for a while about crafting in D&D.
The crafting discussion reminded me of a 4e game I played in where my character had finally recovered my father's wizard staff. Sometime later we had killed a dragon and among the loot was an upgraded staff. And back in 4e those upgrades were a big part of characters staying on the difficulty curve of the game. It was a feels bad moment realizing I needed to choose between my character's story and the gameplay. To his credit, the DM realized the issue and came up with some fiction about a portion of the draconic soul was absorbed into my father's staff to upgrade it. so all's well that ends well, but an important lesson I tried to internalize later when I was on the other side of the screen
Excellent advice on the random encounters! I wish I knew this a month ago when I ran a session which turned out to be totally boring because none of the random encounters 'happened' or delivered exciting situations :-) .
As usual, lots of good stuff.
Downtime is another resource the players should all have in equal measure. In my campaign I require the players spend downtime in order to level up. This does two things for me; first, my world gets to catch up with what the players have done. Factions can learn about their antics and respond, rulers can send invitations or bounties, and villains who escaped get a chance to grow in power to challenge them again in the future. Second, my players get to decide how they spend their time and gold. Some players want to craft items, some want to further their personal goals, others want to build a stronghold. The downtime rules work pretty well for this when you exit the pace set by "normal adventuring time" and enter "montage fantasy time." Been a huge boon for my campaign
Yaya more sly flourish!
More Flourishes. Flourishing? Flourish-i?
I think it's so sick that you and your community have done this cool work around Obsidian. As someone who likes the organization of Obsidian but is not a strong coder, having all this download, copy/paste, drag and drop type material for Obsidian is suuuuuper nice.
Here are my general crafting guidelines across systems and settings, especially PbtA, Cthulhu, and Shadowdark, but primarily Blades in the Dark/Scum and Villainy:
1. Magic/tech is rare, expensive, and specialized
2. You can find half of the stuff and you can craft half of the stuff
3. Downtime is part of most sessions
As long as world reinforces the idea that magic or high tech is limited, it's expected that you might craft unique items. When you have a downtime session characters are doing things to improve themselve, their connections, etc. Crafting slips neatly in there.
When it comes to buying and crafting magic items, there have been two 3rd party products that hit what I'm interested in and recommend.
My absolute favorite product is the Armorer's Handbook by heavyarms, which allows characters to slowly upgrade their weapons and armor by spending all the gold they get for something they actually want. You slowly add small bonuses to weapons, with each bonus of the same tier getting more expensive as the stack on top of each other. That way you both make meaningful choices what trait you value in a piece of gear (do you want the +1 to hit bonus or the increased crit range more) and you can't get the really higher power stuff until you're at the level where you get enough gold for it to make sense (Can't make the weapon's damage dice explode until you can spend at least 1000 gp in one go). And because it (only) works on mundane equipment, it means you can stick with your father's heirloom sword from your backstory and just upgrade it into the legendary weapon you'd want to use at level 10 etc.
Heliana's Guide to Monster Hunting has what I'd want for crafting, primarily in how harvesting monster parts works and how they relate to crafting specific items. It is so elegantly implemented that they have the entire SRD magic item list covered in a table of a few pages. I disagree a bit with the variation of the crafting results (items getting boons or banes depending on a skill check), but that is easily smoothed over (and encouraged in the text). By tying certain rarity items to specific components you can only get from certain CR level creatures, you keep the bigger items out of reach until the point where they would show up naturally anyway.
The Alchemy handbook from heavy arms is also fantastic regarding potions
I'm a fan of having crafting available and accessing it as a player. Taking your insights to heart, I will be using crafting to allow players to create some unique item that doesn't easily come from a reskin, OR as a "fidget" for their characters. "During a long rest , I tinker with xx for 2 hours." To facilitate this, I'll drop targeted crafting materials for them.
The best way I have seen to handle "crafting" magic weapons in play and in running d&d is to have weapons that scale with the character.
A dragon longsword that gets stronger with dragon kills, a family heirloom bow that gets stronger with killing select NPCs, a ring that gains properties as you make alliances, etc
From a crafting system stand point I enjoy the idea of scaling up items too, with the caveat that either the character scales in power or their items scale, but not both. To be fair, I have systems other than super heroic games like D&D 5e in mind.
Text versions of the text and Obsidian are game changers for me 💛💛💛
I've never really tackled crafting in any meaningful way, but i do have a small trick for customizing items, which others may find handy.
When i know what style of weapon my player wants (short sword, bow, etc.), I'll put a magic version into loot that has empty slots, two or three spaces that can fit enchanted gems in the handle. These gems can be standard Ioun stones, or gems of the GM's creation, and when they're set in the weapon, the whole thing can be attuned to using one slot instead of one per stone. Later, the stones can be switched out and the weapon re-attuned to, so the PC can keep their special item and keep up with the game.
That's a neat style. The weapon is basically just an empty base for customizable cartridges to mix and match. The player can have whatever weapon type they prefer, but avoid the issue of feeling guilty for swapping out the new item. It also makes future treasure easier, since it can just be alternate cartridges they can try. Eventually they'll figure out their preferred combo and that's when you probably slow down on those items for loot.
Lots of great points about crafting and its pitfalls. I especially agree with the notion that crafting systems can easily either (a) make every other method of item acquisition obsolete or (b) end up being redundant. A good example of (a) is "Dark Cloud": the weapons you craft are much more powerful than the weapons you can find or buy. A good example of (b), meanwhile, is low-level World of Warcraft: the weapons and armor you can craft are much weaker than the weapons and armor you receive as rewards for the story quests.
In 5e, I don't think I've ever personally witnessed players losing motivation because they had already acquired the "best in slot" item, but I can see how it would happen in groups that run a more "dungeon crawl" style of campaign.
A good way to get rid of quests the players rejected is to have an NPC party take that quest and (on a roll) win the rumored treasure or nearly get wiped out. Eventually, the NPCs could become rivals & fight the PCs with treasures the PCs rejected.
Yes. Exactly on crafting. You put into the words that I haven't been able to. Everyone's idea of it is so different that it ends up not being satisfying.
I think crafting is better served looking through the lens of the material drops to help the narrative move forward. You fight a young dragon. You can get hide, scales, and blood. That either converts into GP, or it opens up recipes with those.
But in the end, it's all leading to the same destination: loot upgrades.
But for the 5e environment, it really needs to be abstracted and satisfying. How do you do that?
Probably the best game for crafting is Ars Magica, if you include researching new spells, writing new books, building out your lab, etc. under crafting. But this works because it's a key part of the gameplay loop as one of the central paths of character advancement. And AM works on the principle of troupe play: each player has a mage character, but also other 'companion' characters, like a knight, minstrel, priest, or just a man-at-arms or cook. In any given scenario/adventure, one, or at most two, players use their mage character and the others play their non-mage ones, while their mage characters stay home and craft/research. Then in the next scenario, another player plays their mage, and the rest all play their companions, turn-and-turn-about. This allows a mage to spend months off crafting while the player still participates in the ongoing game. So crafting works brilliantly in AM, but as far more than as an add-on to the game.
I think crafting just allows for more fun loot than just drops. It's one thing to kill the Efreeti and get a sword, but to get the Efreeti heart and learn that you can forge that into something, that can almost become a quest on its own, and maybe the party sits down and talks about maybe a magical item that one player wants, but it requires a branch from the feywild, so they decide to go into the feywild to help their buddy out. Crafting is just dynamic loot that gives choice and meaning and I've always loved a really well thought out crafting system. Especially if you get really attached to your weapon and your DM let's you augment it. So you do get your flametongue weapon, but then you stumble across a magical gemstone and you can attach it to the sword through another little sidequest and power it up a bit more so that it scales with you. Someone else commented about using skill checks and tool proficiency and if you roll poorly, having a slightly worse version and I think that's also a super cool idea, and maybe you can go on another little adventure to try to correct your mistake, etc. It's definitely not for every campaign but I'd love it in mine.
Call of Cthulhu! That bundle looks great! I have many of the books already, so I merely passed the link along to friends. I have used the Lazy DM methods to write Call of Cthulhu scenarios and it works well. If you wind up running something from the system, I would love to hear your thoughts in a future video.
Crafting = rerolls on and additions to random loot tables. This does not disrupt the core gameplay loop of adventuring to get treasure. And it is a method that works everywhere it is allowed to be used: gambling / gatcha / hacking your brain. You can also incorporate hero points as a way to get an additional roll on the random loot table ("I got a hero point for playing my character in a way that really helped the emerging narrative and I played with such tactical expertise that I did not have to use my hero point to overcome a death saving throw"). This way you are rewarding what you want (dramatic roleplaying and smart tactics). And you are adding in tension (should I use my hero point and lose my chance at getting better loot)
Thanks
Magic items have really suffered in the transition to 5e from 3e and 4e, now that character abilities are the main draw and multiclassing/optimization are expected. Back in older editions, characters had a lot of dead levels and not much character progression, so even amulets of health and bracers of protection were standard kit to bolster characters against damage. Now, HP is so heavily front loaded that players can essentially tank through most of the damage they receive and only get nervous if they are constantly being incapacitated in combat. Not that I think it’s inherently better to go back to the constant magic item grind of 3e and pathfinder 1e, but magic items used to be the point of adventuring, not necessarily leveling up.
A really very interesting discourse. Thanks.
Side note: For real nice set of file rename management tools... if you use windows... Is the Power Toys app's 'PowerRename' tool. It has a batch extension change ability. There is a hundred other tools in this too that when incorporated at the right time and place will up your DM prep game. I can't tell you how many times I've used the text extractor OCR feature (think copy and paste to your pace buffer from images) as Well is the image resizer utility, and even using it to help define reusable window layouts. So good.
You mentioned things getting locked up in PDFs. Definitely check out this text extractor. I even taken photos of stuff I don't have digital copies but PDFs that have image text oftentimes I just do the text extractor screen grab off the PDFs. Or if I have pictures I use the text extractor on the images that I took a picture of the book. It's super handy. The tool also has a paste as plain text ability so it's like you're using Google products I used to open up Chrome emails just so I could paste text without format and then recopy it out of there Now it's built into my OS using power toys.
And as an aside there is a another app called DevToys that has markdown editor and preview tools inside of it too.
Reach out to me If you want to know more about it you're running any trouble with any of those.
Great!
The dungeon dudes have talked about a system that they're working on where you need formulas and recipes but otherwise can do most of the work in just a moment with very specific monster parts and mundane materials. You should look into their crafting system, it looks like it'll be a lot of fun
The book Heliana's Guide to Monster Hunting from Jess Jackdaw has a pretty good streamlined crafting system to go along with the monster hunting and parts harvesting systems the book focused on.
I think you could make rolling the same thing twice on a random encounter table be interesting. If, for instance, you roll two groups of bandits, they could be from different gangs and they're bartering. Or if you roll two packs of wolves, the party could have walked into the middle of what was going to be a bloody territory dispute.
Hmm I havent seen these shows in my feed for awhile. I am sad because of that. I love these shows. More then the Eldritch lore cast. It has more info to help me. Lore cast is more news show and has its own use.
I remember my friends and I having plenty of fun with the crafting rules in 3.5e D&D. Granted, it was just a matter of getting enough money to essentially buy the item you wanted (there may have been time constraints but we never paid attention to those.) But we'd go questing for the gold until we had enough to buy the Magic Thing we wanted, unless we happened to find something better along the way. The more I think about that system and compare it to 5e, I think the fact that 3.5e's math was NOT "flattened" helped all this, since no matter how coolan item you got or how easy you got it, the DM could always just throw monsters at you that had higher AC, more HP, etc to keep things challenging. In 5e, that becomes a lot more transparent because things don't scale endlessly like they used to.
I say this as someone who very much enjoys the flattened math of 5e (or the even more flat math of Shadowdark), but I guess that idea runs counter to being able to custom craft whatever your heart desires.
Best “crafting” rules is Crown & Skull hero points system. Build out any equipment, spell, or skills that your player cares about. Doesn’t leave plyers behind, because the system lets them focus on what they care most.
Seeing your journey from “eh obsidian looks cool but not for me” to “I am an obsidian user now” is very funny and cool to see lol
I love Obsidian.... I'm going to buy the dread thingonomicon to add to my Vault
Fun fact: dnd beyond posts all their books in Markdown. I'm slowly copypasta the content that I've purchased (One page at a time...yay) into my Vault.
It takes a bit of clean up (the heading URLs come before the headings, so those Need to be swapped...and the artwork is just a link to the art in dndbeyond ) but once it's there and a bit organized, I can quickly and easily Access and reference my DNDbeyond materials, even if I'm offline.
Thanks for the info on these resources. I'll take all the help I can get
Couple of things I'd toss in regarding the crafting:
Optimising the fun out of gameplay is to go the Cypher route and make craftable items one-use only. You still have the issue of someone possibly trying to make 100 healing potions, but it saves the GM a big headache if they accidentally give the party or character a very overpowered item. If it's ridiculously overpowered, it doesn't matter because it's a one and done. Additionally, if it's underpowered, the party aren't lugging it around because they can fire and forget and then be free to be excited about the next one.
The other thing that I think feeds into crafting problems is the money problem. What do do with gold is a massive problem I don't think any RPG has really figured out unless they go hard on an economy which few designers and GMs are inclined to do, but - like adventure design in DnD at 16th+ level, it all starts to come loose at the seams as characters start accruing vast amounts of wealth. What to do with that wealth - use it to solve a problem - is an obvious response from a player. It would be interesting to hear what thoughts you have on this one too if it can be squeezed into a show!
The crafted item problem comes up with all good magic items; if the player and DM have made the item meaningful, it's hard to replace them with something new. The answer is having fans and followers and protoges and relatives. As in the real world, legendary artifacts should be bequeathed; something has gone terribly wrong in your life if you're selling the sword you used to slay the great dragon of the Molten Vale. Reforging is another option; then the legend of your old weapon becomes part of the story of the new one.
Long reply re: crafting.
There are ways to make crafting work, as evidenced by systems that DO have it, and they generally have the same types of systems.
The problem with rpg crafting is that you often need 2 systems and neither can be hyper focused in the rules because although the DM's special rulings can allow for tailor made crafting items, those don't work for other characters and some of the items used might not be in both campaigns.
The problem with d&d crafting is the same as that of material components for spells: either it's tied to a monetary value, which is the antithesis of crafting because "why not just buy for those prices?" or the items aren't necessarily going to appear.
Instead you need key monsters that have harvestable craftable items (cave crawlers have an EXCELLENT bit of flavor text that mentions rope, alcohol, and shell for armor), which upon discovery can be used to craft/unlock items. the items should also be fairly "of level" and unique giving you customization outside of character. I.e. You can craft a set of plate from this thing with fire resistance but 1 less ac, and a different monster might give you acid resistance and not have the penalty for you ac, and a third set might give you a once a day shield spell and a third doesn't give disadvantage on stealth, all from different monsters, but also all set to a monster, which makes monster hunting far more interesting and a game unto itself.
The second crafting system is based on alchemy, and you craft consumables but you have recipes from potions, "spells in a bottle", etc. and the formulas are general. Assign ingredients as types and the more powerful the item the more ingredients and the higher DC. A simple flash fire or cantrip level consumable might take 2 ingredients and a dc10, but a level 4 spell might require 8 ingredients and have a DC 15. And ingredients should be vague and tied to creature type. There's like 10-14 of them. You're more than likely to encounter most of them during your adventure. If that's not appealing, pick 8 elements and assign 1-2 of them to each creature at random and harvest as a survival roll with a DC 13. Failure means your get nothing, pass gets you one of the types, critical success gets you 2.
These aren't uncommon systems, it's just that current D&D and Rpg's have blinders of sorts to the crafting problem, and they focus on the wrong aspects.
I appreciate all of your ideas on how to incorporate time saving files into things like obsidian, but I have zero background with tech/coding things. For someone who would like to start, but doesn't know what he doesn't know, where do you begin?
My favorite way of providing specific magic items is to let PCs donate treasure to their church & get a vision of where to find that item. But they can’t just leaf thru the Sears Wishbook & circle what they want. They have to research, say, magic swords & learn about three random ones, & then they can pray for one of them.
The only sort of crafting i approve of is finding monster parts & exotic plants that can be brewed into potions. It gives players a choice in what kind they get.
I was driving and a random call must’ve come in at the exact moment I exited Spotify to practice an intro to a session I was planning. So for about 20 seconds some person heard my countess npc explaining how brazen thugs broke into her place and stole a statuette. To my surprise I hear a, “Huh?”, from the car speakers. I quickly ended the call and later checked my recent calls and all that and can’t figure out who it was, but I’m sad that they didn’t seem to understand the urgency of the countess’ plea and accept the quest.
Sly - I'm always concerned when you try to impose limits. Clerics don't have to be healers and players should not be forced to have one. If a group wants to craft healing potions, 5... 10... whatever, so what. You are a DM with infinite monsters and monsters with amazing abilities. As a DM I'm not trying to cheat them out of crafting. Pls note however, whilst I often disagree on your limits (pass without trace etc) , I am a fan of your channel, I use your tools and tips and
I support your Kickstarter.
Hate the prices on magic items, hated the impetus and demand that Magic Items had to have an economy simply because a price was placed on the item in 3.X/PF.
If you are going to craft in my world you have to learn it through a schema/recipe which is a drop more often than not and the rarity for the schema is one level higher than the rarity of the item (yes, that means you can't craft legendary items in my games, mostly). Then I have a list of ingredients that are available, and you have to either craft the item or be present while it is being crafted if you don't have the skills, that means you can't just buy an item off the shelf and enchant it.
Each item has a guideline recipe too and a roll involved (this includes mundane items). So far this has worked well, if you craft it is downtime (exceptions for some minor things apply). I don't simply abstract it all with a gp value cost. If the material is not available it literally isn't available, meaning you don't have it in your inventory.
I think the biggest problem with codifying crafting is that the GM has to adjust and homogenize crafting times and gold costs to enable every player to do what they want with downtime periods.
As in, the GM can’t just arbitrarily pick an amount of down time like 4 weeks, because crafting a magic sword might take 5 but crafting a bow might take 3 so the GM can accidentally bias the game against one player if they don’t factor in an entire crafting chapter.
And the same is true of gold, because under a codified rule system, a GM has to memorize every official use for gold to determine exactly how much they should hand out for rewards.
I see your point, but if you are going to have a crafting system it should be codified in that the rules are consistent across the board. As far as component costs (whether in effort, resources or coin) it should be in proportion to the power of the item, but also I think an element of chance is important. It really is a matter of how rare magic is in your chosen system, and whether or not crafting is a key element in that system. I think tacking on a crafting system instead of developing the game with crafting as an essential feature from the beginning is where most systems ultimately fail.
You should start doing more shows that involve Pathfinder 2e
Crafting for anything but consumables is a road to peril.
What if the mages who make items don't just build them for one big lump sum, but rather require a subscription fee? Instead of one payment of 24,000 gp, you pay 2,000 gp per week or it's bricked? Magic Items As A Service...
I think crafting systems in any game have the problem that the things you can craft are either a) almost useless or b) practically mandatory.
The reason for that is that - this being a game - you can't levy costs on the crafting that result in any serious real world expenditure (of either time or money). And as such, any player can craft anything they really want to have.
Hello! I clicked on your video specifically for your thoughts on crafting. It is definitely a tricky subsystem to include in a game and have it feel enjoyable. I feel I have possibly cracked the code when it comes to crafting (essentially it is a vital component of my game from the beginning), but one aspect is more troublesome than others. When I discuss crafting with my people they invariably make it clear that there should be some element of collecting which they find appealing. Having a variety of component types, and styles, hues, etc. to seek out and gather and/or loot is part of the fun, and I agree with them. Tracking this is easier to achieve in a video game or with an online character sheet perhaps, but not so easy for us play-in-person, pen-and-paper types who are trying to maintain a clear and concise character sheet. I have considered a few approaches including a card system (expensive), tokens (expensive and cumbersome), or a separate tracking sheet dedicated to crafting (restrictive), but ultimately there is no perfect solution.
Your party is downing health potions like water?
Gee, seems like those are addictive and people adapt fast to them so they need to take more. Also, somehow the party have almost depleted the resources for making them, which niw have become scarce and valuable. So they also attracted the attention of the local criminals, who now try to get their hands on the party's supply of potions.
54:04 Replace HP with Hit Locations e.g. Warhammer Fantasy, Broken Empires
What if you just never find loot without having to do some comissioning/crafting? What if we are looking at the problem backwards and the issue is convienient loot?
What if you always get the heart of the efreeti or the hand of the Demon Bathomak and you have to take that and turn it into the item you want.
It solves all the problems presented here while also solving the "conveniently useful" loot issue.
I haven't actually tried this, but it sounds cool to me.
Of course, I'd be using my crafting system, where you only need one specific material and either the capability or the money to hire someone to make the item for you.
Make it simple.
It's worked great for consumables so far, so I think it could be cool for non-consumables.
It does somewhat assume a different playstyle than 5e wants though. My game has periods of downtime and accommodates longer time pressures like seiges. Gives players time to do things like craft items, send letters to allies, and the like.
See I have a problem with throw away magic items. I think that what the player gets should not be replaced so much. In the real world we keep our own stuff as long as possible.
I think at least part of the discussion on "crafting: good / crafting: bad" is born of a misunderstanding on the meaning of "crafting".
You said it yourself at around 28 minutes 30-something "If my player says "I want a sword that casts Fireball".", as well as the Borderlands dev quote you gave before that.
That statement is predicated on the definition of "crafting system" as a set of rules that allows the final user of the item (i.e. the player) to add a new, until then inexistent item to the items list that does whatever they want it to do. In other words, that's a system to place part of the GM's power to will things into existence (i.e. homebrewing xD) in the hands of the players.
What I think most of the GMs and players that I have spoken to mean by "crafting" is a set of guidelines to allow the final user of a magic item to depend less on chance (or the GM) in their arsenal.
I speak as a player of mostly martial characters (we get shit other than a kick in the noggin xD), here, and also as a player who finds the vast majority of magical items in DnD to be, though powerful, fundamentally boring to use, so for me having a system that saves me the frustration of having my hopes of an exciting item dashed by the divving out of the loot is *key* to my enjoyment of my character.
Case in point, my favourite 5e item pretty much in existence is the Rod of Retribution, that's an item that I'll probably never tire to use because I just find it fun.
There is another, GM-side, reason to have a crafting system (in its second definition that I gave earlier) in your game; it is extremely easy to rig a system that generates adventure hooks for you. In other words, free filler content for your players to cut their teeth on while you have the BBEG do BBEG-business in the background ^^ As a (mostly forever) GM, I have used crafting systems as a tool to allow the players to do most of the adventure hook devising for me.
EDIT: added the following, because I forgot it "in the keyboard", so to speak, like a pilloc xD
In addition to control over gameplay, crafting gives players control over the narrative of an item and creates emotional investment. Item X, whatever it is, exists because *we* the group made the conscious decision of putting the work in for it, rather than receiving it "from above".
Crafting is always so weird in rpgs since that's predominately a crpg thing.
Btw, will there be a Revenge of the Lazy GM in the distant future?
Simple heroic fantasy: DRAGONBANE!
Enjoyed the meta-discussion regarding crafting! Personally I roll mostly for loot, but add some seed loot that progresses the story or the PC’s story. You’re right though-it’s not perfect.
The trouble with crafting -- thanks for covering this, Mike! I completely agree. I don't want crafting (or magic shops) in my pen-and-paper RPGing, because I don't want play to just turn into a grind for gold and crafting materials. I'm here to tell adventure stories together, not to fetishize gear and character builds.
To me, this is hand waving and not item crafting, gathering resources, quality found, working the materials based off skill level or ability, etc etc. I still haven't found one that hits this other than video games
Destiny 2 didn't listen to Borderlands whe. They added their crafting system.
I never understood the crafting obsession. If you want cool stuff, go hunt for it. If the stuff you find isn't to your liking, find someone to trade for it. As aDM, I'm not giving you weeks or months of downtime anyway. Powerful magic items are created by my own retired PCs.
I don't give out that much loot. Purple don't leave items around
I disagree with the example of the Flametongue requiring the heart of an Efreet in which you should have just given it as loot in the first place. First, for the crafting to be meaningful, there shouldn't be another means of getting it. No Flametongue exists in this world (or was destroyed, lost its power, etc.) so finding it randomly isn't an option. Second, if a player is interested in crafting it then this can become a part of their character motivation requiring several steps. They have to find the original Flametongue that has lost its power and infuse it with the heart of an Efreet. I don't know if it should apply to every magic item or only for the special "heirloom" items that personal story arcs can be based around.
I will definitely agree that this is a tough problem to solve because of how many different directions your game can go depending on how crafting is implemented.