I took my buddies to lunch one day in my 300SD. (Four of us all together) These three dudes were big guys like you Pierre. Anyway, I could not tell the difference in performance in the car. THAT is diesel power.
I was just a kid at the time,but a buddies dad had an 86 ford f350 diesel and we used to laugh at how slow it was. Then one day we were with him picking up his 30' airstream and were shocked when it still was almost as quick as unladen.
You make a great point about the torque on the 300D Turbodiesel. My father owned a 1982 300D Turbodiesel in the mid-1980s. At one point, he was tempted to buy a new Series III Jaguar XJ6. However, when we testdrove the XJ6, we were astonished by how it was lacking the "umpf" that the 300D had in city traffic in terms of passing power on 30-45 mph roads.
I have driven a 300D manual swapped to a 300TD. 2nd was not working well and the couple hours i drove it had me wondering about shift points and the turbo spooling up the whole time. Overall compared to the 300SD 4 Spd auto I regularly drive I preferred the automatic.
Clutch plate friction surfaces only see wear with mismatched rpm. Once it clamps zero wear other than the disk's springs. Even w trashed synchro rings rev matching allows flawless down shifts.
Yes. Drive it like an unsynchronized transmission. We Albanians always say, if you’re going to Manual swap an OM617 Turbo powered car, drive it like a FIAT 500. That will solve the problem. Those are just as common as the classic Mercedes over here.
Great point. However, if the clutch is too weak to handle the torque of an engine (I'm not saying it is), the clutch can actually slip under load even without touching the pedal, which will cause wear. The synchros only wear while shifting, especially on downshifts. Double clutching on downshifts prevents most synchro wear. Synchros don't hold the engine's torque at all. Once the transmission is in a gear, the synchros could totally disappear and you would never even know until you tried to shift.
I've done a variety of manual swaps on 123, both aluminum and iron box transmissions. My two favorite 300d manuals were my 85 turno 300d w GD flywheel and my Vietnam assmbled CDK 83 non turbo 300d taxi. Will agree the 240d trans is to weak but I certainly enjoyed it. The taxi, however, was no slouch with its M pump and the top end was around 85mph but would do it all day long. I never had my hands on a 5spd iron box to do the conversion but would have loved to try. Plenty of options in the w124/w201 and om 60x that are fun and far more reliable.
Back home in Albania, many OM617’s have been fitted with manuals, some better than others. Mine never had any issues, thankfully. Our other favourite cars are the original FIAT 500 and the Citroën 2CV. It’s not like the 2CV’s transmission where you can just beat the dogshit out of it and it will take whatever abuse you have to throw at it, it really needs to be driven moreso like the FIAT 500, with it’s more delicate unsynchronized transmission.
@@ebutuoyebutouy Yes. People think a manual transmission conversion means that it is now meant to be driven like a maniac, which is not a good idea. Our other favourite cars are the original FIAT 500 and the Citroën 2CV. It’s not like the 2CV’s transmission where you can just beat the dogshit out of it and it will take whatever abuse you have to throw at it, it really needs to be driven moreso like the FIAT 500, with it’s more delicate unsynchronized transmission.
Spot on video and I’m so glad you got into this topic. I used to have a euro manual n/a 300d with the heavier 38lbs flywheel out of the factory and for a while I thought about doing a swap into my auto turbo 300d, to the point I even acquired a euro transmission swap, pedals, drive shaft and flywheel. However the 2nd gear synchro always bothered me on my euro manual, and ultimately I decided against the swap. The automatics on these are very robust and now a decade later I’m beyond glad that I didn’t hack up my 300d.
im looking at getting into the 300d world and i enjoy driving a manual transmission. i have seen an adapter to the run the 6 speed out of the BMW diesels and they are rated at holding twice what any om617 could make with a much more favorable gear ratio. general thoughts and feedback would be really appreciated .
I've never experienced a turbodiesel OM617/manual combo, but I have owned a 2006 Ford F350 with a factory ZF6 manual and a 1992 Ram W250 5.9 Cummins/5spd. I feel that the power was more efficiently put down to the ground in the automatic variants of these trucks. Sure, there's always the novelty of rowing your own gears...and the occasional situation where having that level of control over the transmission is a good thing, but next time around I'll have an automatic TD truck. My 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD does just fine with the automatic, I love how smooth and easy it is to drive, even when towing a trailer.
I agree. I've driven a handful of manual turbodiesel trucks, and nothing beats the Optimizer 6500 and 4L80E in my Tahoe. The torque in a turbodiesel almost feels like an on/off switch.
Totally agree, they are best with automatics. I've had a couple of converted ones and the torque curve of the engine doesn't match well with the manual. With the automatic the torque converter lets you ride the wave of torque in a way that isn't possible with the manual. I do think an NA 617 is great with a manual though.
I have a '06 Sprinter and have experience with a '79 300SD. I agree with you, the way the torque comes on the automatic transmission makes more sense because you can keep the throttle open during shifting, when you back off the throttle you lose the torque advantage of the turbodiesel. It's probably not a good idea to speed shift a transmission intended for the 240D.
I just bought my wife a 1982 GD 300 manual. She told me she wants an automatic 🤯…. Do you have any suggestions as to what transmission I should outsource?
I don’t recall where I read this, but apparently MB didn’t fit manual transmissions to turbodiesel models because of the power band of the 617A. The 722.3 shifts faster than a human can shift manually, so the engine doesn’t lose that many RPMs between shifts and therefore it doesn’t drop off boost. Also, who on their own mind would pay that much money for a manual luxury car with no sporty pretentions? - A manual turbodiesel Mercedes is something the market never asked for.
At least the European 280E (185hp) almost had the same max torque as the 300 turbodiesel. 240Nm vs 245Nm. It could be had with a manual.. But the turbodiesel was never sold with a manual in Europe either. So must have been a reason for it.
Diesel engines in general work more efficiently at a constant rpm, and so do turbo chargers. The drop in engine speed (rpm) and then acceleration to change gears reduces their efficiency.🦁
I've owned only five Mercedes in my life time. The first two autos, the last three manuals. I don't get the mania for converting them. My last was a 123 240D auto that someone had previously converted to manual. They did a crap job and it was nothing like as good a ride as my previous two manuals which were made as such by Benz. An 83 123 200 and another 81 123 240D. I will never buy a converted car again and my perference going forward will be exclusivly for Autos. If you need to drive like youre in a sports car, go buy a sports car. I completely sympatise with your attitude towards conversions. The idea of converting an S class to manual seems utterly stupid to me. Despite the fact that in Europe you could actually get them factory as 280S's. No idea why anybody would want one. But that's just me I guess. To each their own.
Aside from man-tran fans of innovation, a potent motive for swapping is the hassle of a knackered automatic. Like a sunroof that opens manually, roll-down windows, locks that require the mere pushing a plastic peg. I think to myself: older school is better than old school; easier to repair a manual. Except that this thinking is a regression to horse and buggy, and them things were buggy too.
I took my buddies to lunch one day in my 300SD. (Four of us all together) These three dudes were big guys like you Pierre. Anyway, I could not tell the difference in performance in the car. THAT is diesel power.
It always seems to me like a lot of trouble just I have to do more work while driving.
I was just a kid at the time,but a buddies dad had an 86 ford f350 diesel and we used to laugh at how slow it was.
Then one day we were with him picking up his 30' airstream and were shocked when it still was almost as quick as unladen.
You make a great point about the torque on the 300D Turbodiesel. My father owned a 1982 300D Turbodiesel in the mid-1980s. At one point, he was tempted to buy a new Series III Jaguar XJ6. However, when we testdrove the XJ6, we were astonished by how it was lacking the "umpf" that the 300D had in city traffic in terms of passing power on 30-45 mph roads.
I have driven a 300D manual swapped to a 300TD. 2nd was not working well and the couple hours i drove it had me wondering about shift points and the turbo spooling up the whole time. Overall compared to the 300SD 4 Spd auto I regularly drive I preferred the automatic.
Clutch plate friction surfaces only see wear with mismatched rpm. Once it clamps zero wear other than the disk's springs. Even w trashed synchro rings rev matching allows flawless down shifts.
Yes. Drive it like an unsynchronized transmission. We Albanians always say, if you’re going to Manual swap an OM617 Turbo powered car, drive it like a FIAT 500. That will solve the problem. Those are just as common as the classic Mercedes over here.
Great point. However, if the clutch is too weak to handle the torque of an engine (I'm not saying it is), the clutch can actually slip under load even without touching the pedal, which will cause wear. The synchros only wear while shifting, especially on downshifts. Double clutching on downshifts prevents most synchro wear. Synchros don't hold the engine's torque at all. Once the transmission is in a gear, the synchros could totally disappear and you would never even know until you tried to shift.
I've done a variety of manual swaps on 123, both aluminum and iron box transmissions. My two favorite 300d manuals were my 85 turno 300d w GD flywheel and my Vietnam assmbled CDK 83 non turbo 300d taxi. Will agree the 240d trans is to weak but I certainly enjoyed it. The taxi, however, was no slouch with its M pump and the top end was around 85mph but would do it all day long. I never had my hands on a 5spd iron box to do the conversion but would have loved to try. Plenty of options in the w124/w201 and om 60x that are fun and far more reliable.
Back home in Albania, many OM617’s have been fitted with manuals, some better than others. Mine never had any issues, thankfully. Our other favourite cars are the original FIAT 500 and the Citroën 2CV. It’s not like the 2CV’s transmission where you can just beat the dogshit out of it and it will take whatever abuse you have to throw at it, it really needs to be driven moreso like the FIAT 500, with it’s more delicate unsynchronized transmission.
No issues because u know how to drive. Good for u.
@@ebutuoyebutouy Yes. People think a manual transmission conversion means that it is now meant to be driven like a maniac, which is not a good idea. Our other favourite cars are the original FIAT 500 and the Citroën 2CV. It’s not like the 2CV’s transmission where you can just beat the dogshit out of it and it will take whatever abuse you have to throw at it, it really needs to be driven moreso like the FIAT 500, with it’s more delicate unsynchronized transmission.
Spot on video and I’m so glad you got into this topic. I used to have a euro manual n/a 300d with the heavier 38lbs flywheel out of the factory and for a while I thought about doing a swap into my auto turbo 300d, to the point I even acquired a euro transmission swap, pedals, drive shaft and flywheel. However the 2nd gear synchro always bothered me on my euro manual, and ultimately I decided against the swap. The automatics on these are very robust and now a decade later I’m beyond glad that I didn’t hack up my 300d.
im looking at getting into the 300d world and i enjoy driving a manual transmission. i have seen an adapter to the run the 6 speed out of the BMW diesels and they are rated at holding twice what any om617 could make with a much more favorable gear ratio. general thoughts and feedback would be really appreciated .
I had w123 300 turbo diesel, changed 2 times the gearbox and 3 more times the clutch. But it was fun
Love your insights Pierre @pierre
Glad I watched this
I've never experienced a turbodiesel OM617/manual combo, but I have owned a 2006 Ford F350 with a factory ZF6 manual and a 1992 Ram W250 5.9 Cummins/5spd. I feel that the power was more efficiently put down to the ground in the automatic variants of these trucks. Sure, there's always the novelty of rowing your own gears...and the occasional situation where having that level of control over the transmission is a good thing, but next time around I'll have an automatic TD truck. My 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD does just fine with the automatic, I love how smooth and easy it is to drive, even when towing a trailer.
I agree. I've driven a handful of manual turbodiesel trucks, and nothing beats the Optimizer 6500 and 4L80E in my Tahoe. The torque in a turbodiesel almost feels like an on/off switch.
Thanks for this overview ...very useful!
Glad it was helpful!
@@mercedesclassicswithpierre1753 I'm a European ...a manual 300D sounded good but you made your case very well
I can confirm my 190E manual with over 200k miles the second gear syncro was busted
I learn a lot from your videos appreciate you man!
Will a five cylinder turbo from a 83 300d fit in a 80 model 240d where a four cylinder is?
Totally agree, they are best with automatics. I've had a couple of converted ones and the torque curve of the engine doesn't match well with the manual. With the automatic the torque converter lets you ride the wave of torque in a way that isn't possible with the manual. I do think an NA 617 is great with a manual though.
I have a '06 Sprinter and have experience with a '79 300SD. I agree with you, the way the torque comes on the automatic transmission makes more sense because you can keep the throttle open during shifting, when you back off the throttle you lose the torque advantage of the turbodiesel. It's probably not a good idea to speed shift a transmission intended for the 240D.
I would like to see someone cover the alternative transmissions for higher horsepower. Although that may be sacrilegious.
How about the 5-speed? I have heard it's much better.
I just bought my wife a 1982 GD 300 manual. She told me she wants an automatic 🤯…. Do you have any suggestions as to what transmission I should outsource?
I don’t recall where I read this, but apparently MB didn’t fit manual transmissions to turbodiesel models because of the power band of the 617A. The 722.3 shifts faster than a human can shift manually, so the engine doesn’t lose that many RPMs between shifts and therefore it doesn’t drop off boost. Also, who on their own mind would pay that much money for a manual luxury car with no sporty pretentions? - A manual turbodiesel Mercedes is something the market never asked for.
At least the European 280E (185hp) almost had the same max torque as the 300 turbodiesel. 240Nm vs 245Nm. It could be had with a manual..
But the turbodiesel was never sold with a manual in Europe either. So must have been a reason for it.
I once saw a Canadian 1985 w123 300D Turbo Diesel sedan ,with a 5 speed manual transmission. Don't know if it left the factory that way?🤔
Diesel engines in general work more efficiently at a constant rpm, and so do turbo chargers. The drop in engine speed (rpm) and then acceleration to change gears reduces their efficiency.🦁
No thank you... I'll stick with the automatic!😁
I've owned only five Mercedes in my life time. The first two autos, the last three manuals. I don't get the mania for converting them. My last was a 123 240D auto that someone had previously converted to manual. They did a crap job and it was nothing like as good a ride as my previous two manuals which were made as such by Benz. An 83 123 200 and another 81 123 240D. I will never buy a converted car again and my perference going forward will be exclusivly for Autos. If you need to drive like youre in a sports car, go buy a sports car. I completely sympatise with your attitude towards conversions. The idea of converting an S class to manual seems utterly stupid to me. Despite the fact that in Europe you could actually get them factory as 280S's. No idea why anybody would want one. But that's just me I guess. To each their own.
I wanted to do a manual swap on my W123 300D Turbo but my mechanic said it wasn’t a good idea.
Aside from man-tran fans of innovation, a potent motive for swapping is the hassle of a knackered automatic. Like a sunroof that opens manually, roll-down windows, locks that require the mere pushing a plastic peg. I think to myself: older school is better than old school; easier to repair a manual. Except that this thinking is a regression to horse and buggy, and them things were buggy too.
@@ebutuoyebutouy Yes, as one's horse or donkey may need a liver transplant. Not easy to find a spare and biological systems are fussier to work on.