10 Bit Color with the Canon C100 Mkii
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- Опубліковано 26 сер 2024
- UPDATE: Some info in this video is incorrect. Watch my update here: • C100 Mkii 10 Bit or 8 ...
Original Article: ntown.at/2014/0...
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Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you UA-cam Community for your feedback and helping me be better.
That was the comment I wanted to post that it is 8 bit 422 but still a solid format. Thx for the video
You can turn on the camera's HDMI record trigger if you want to run backup without having to press record twice
No way!! Good to know. Thank you for that.
Firstly, it's not 10bit, it's 8bit 422, and this is nothing new, it worked from day one on C100 mark II. Also, you can record in Prores, it's not the camera that is sending Prores over HDMI, it's the recorder which is recording that format. Camera is sending clean 422/8bit over HDMI at all times and you can record that using any recorder which supports that compression.
Thank you for your feedback. If you read the article I reference at the top of my description, the originator of this solution addresses that very fact. I believe it is a true 10-bit signal. And yes, you can record Prores, but it will be 8-bit not 10-bit so if you want 10-bit, it has to be DNxHD. The lumetri scopes reveal this signal is 10-bit, not 8-bit and you can eliminate 8-bit color banding with this solution.
@@ginger_dog that article is off. There is nothing between 8 and 10 bit, it's digital, it's one of the other. 8 bit going into a 10 bit wrapper may make it seem like it's 10 and tricks people via the lumetri scope but the info coming out is 8, period. There's no extra info.
@@FrankDellario I did find that part in the article problematic. I'll do a deep dive in research this week and see what I come up with. Thank you for the notice.
@@FrankDellario Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
Really appreciate this tip - the big drawback to me is the file size. In my book external recording wasn't worth worth the hassle with only gaining 4.2.2, but the 10 bit is more significant. I really wish Canon would give us C100 cult members a firmware 10 bit 4.2.2 internal upgrade on this workhorse camera, but I know it ain't going to happen.
Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
@@ginger_dog I have great respect for someone who can concede a mistake. Like I said, as a C100 cult member I keep trying to push more quality out of the camera's limited codec, but I finally had to surrender to what it is. I know when I finally go fully to a 4K 10 bit 4.2.2 camera I'll say "why did I was so long?" but for now this is my camera. My pro video editing co-workers have given me great advice and listened to my whining with great patience. What the C100 lacks in codec it still makes up in overall image quality and fictionality - still great for long concerts, presentations and holds up in good light. This might be the year I go 4K after seeing Canon's new offerings.
@@Sutterjack Thank you so much for your encouragement. I totally get you. I don't think I'll upgrade this year, but when I do, I'm sure I'll look back and wonder why I didn't do it earlier. Still, it's the strengths of this camera that make it so hard to give up. The quality of image for the file sizes and battery life are nuts! Let me know what you eventually upgrade to!
I had this camera for almost 7 years and I had search a lot to find if it can provide 10-bit via external recorder. It's not! It's 8-bit 422 the best it can give but not true 10-bit color. So as the other said it's just 8 bit, recorded in a 10 bit wrapper. BUT still one of the best fhd 8-bit I have seen so far!
Thank you for your feedback. I'm running lots of tests myself and talking with some experts. Any info, resources, or tests you can refer me to would be amazing.
Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
He’s 100% wrong. Is just 8 bit, recorded in a 10 bit wrapper. The only difference is that it’s 422 instead of 420, which is where it maps more colors per pixel, which is why there is a difference. It’s 100% not 10 bit though.
It’s like using a Tiffany Box to give your girlfriend a ring from Kay Jeweler’s. While it looks like it’s going to be quality, it’s still mediocre at best, because the container doesn’t change what’s actually inside.
Be careful giving out bad information. You have some poor guy in the comments ready to buy a recorder and look like a fool when he thinks he’s recording in 10 bit when he’s not.
Again, check out the article at the top of the description. I'll dig into more myself and probably address that as my next video. Thank you for working to keep things accurate. I'll learn my myself and do a video on what I discover. I appreciate you making me better.
Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
@@ginger_dog you took the criticism in stride without getting defensive, took the time to test and confirm what was correct, and then gracefully admitted when you were wrong. I applaud you for your handling this so well!
@@Robert.DeCorah Thank you so much for taking the time to say so. I really appreciate that. I always want this channel to be accurate and truly benefiting my viewers. In the process, I learn from the community and you all keep me humble. Win win.
I use this workflow and it is great. You do not have to hit record in two places. Both the C100 and the Atomos Ninja 2 support hdmi timecode. Enable hdmi rec code on the camera and in the atomos and when you hit record on the camera the atomos records alongside. Unfortunately the footage is not true 10 bit but the 422 makes a notable difference. Also the Atomos Ninja 2 with batteries and SSD is HEAVY which make running and gunning more tiring.
Super helpful! Thank you for the insight. You are right; I came out with a second video after much testing when I found it was not true 10-bit. I was more interested in the 10 bit than 422, so I ended up selling my Ninja. But thanks for the pro tips on how to get them even more compatible.
It is not 10bit. You are just wrapping 8bit into 10bit thats all.
Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
As much as Id LOVE to see true 10-bit come out of this camera Im just not seeing it. It all comes down to the information/data coming out of the HDMI port is 8-Bit. We know this as a true and solid fact. So, it's literally impossible for an external recorder to magically record over 1 billion colors, when the signal it's receiving is only around 256 million. Where is the recorder gathering an extra 700+ million hues from?
I also have the mk2 and yes, from day one it had clean 422 8bit over hdmi, not 10bit. The internal records 4:2:0 8bit. So the 422 is what is giving the better image. You can also get a atomos star for that. You are just wrapping the 8bit in a 10bit wrapper. So not sure your conclusion is correct. Its ofcourse better to record 8bit in 422 external then it is to record in 4:2:0 internal. But its not true 10bit.
If you look at the article I reference at the top of the description, the guy who first found this solution addresses that question. I'm pretty sure he found it is a truly higher bit depth.
@@ginger_dog ok, tnx I visited his website that you had written on the paper, could not find the article that way, but will try via your provided link😇
@@PerryMulder ntown.at/2014/02/05/canon-c100-ninja2-10-bit-workflow/
Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
Key info. Thanks! Love my C100mii even more now!
Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
I really enjoy your videos, and this is another good one. I sold my Ninja 2 with my original C100 but now I have a Ninja V. The Ninja V has DNxHD so it will hopefully work with the C100 Mark II.
Awesome! Let me know as soon as you get a test done. Thank you so much for the encouragement. So glad these are helpful.
Yes, I'd also be keen to learn of your results.
Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
This is great news indeed. Thank you so much for this video. This made my day!
Awesomeness! I was really really excited myself. Let me know if you try it out and if you enjoy the results. Glad it made your day!
He’s 100% wrong. Is just 8 bit, recorded in a 10 bit wrapper. The only difference is that it’s 422 instead of 420, which is where it maps more colors per pixel, which is why there is a difference. It’s 100% not 10 bit though.
It’s the same thing as having an old Movie on VHS and recording over it with your home videos. Just because the container says Titanic, doesn’t mean that’s what’s really inside.
@@Robert.DeCorah Thank you for your clarification. Check out the article at the top of the description because the guy who first discovered this addresses that. I think it's more than you might think.
Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
Brilliant. My task for today will be doing this, thanks.
Sorry Dude, but it's a myth. Check out my video here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html
Thanks for the research and testing; I thought the HDMI out was limited though the banding test result is a pleasant surprise. Appreciate actual dirty testing over simple numbers, you never know.
Also one would take Prores for granted purely by habit and prefered postprod platform. Still suprised it behaves differently.
I'd be curious of some pushing tests (highlight recovery and shadow push).
Even if there's no further gain, the banding solution is pretty nice on its own.
Thank you. There has been a lot of mixed feedback on this video, so I will be doing further testing this week and see how much I can figure out regarding the actual bit depth as opposed to merely improved chromatic subsampling.
Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
are you sure that it is 10 bits out of camera? or is it only recorder recording in 10 bits? better check it before you publish
Thank you for your feedback. If you look at the article I reference at the top of my description, the first guy that found this solution addresses that question pretty thoroughly.
Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
nope
but I wish it were true
@@kellyriley3132 Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
Wait... are you sure this is 10-bit, or is it 8-bit in 422 vs 420?
If you read the article I reference at the top of the description, the original guy to find this solution addresses that question.
@@ginger_dog I've read it. It's still 8-bit in a 10-bit wrapper. The sensor / output path can't be "tricked" into delivering 10-bit. This doesn't make a lick of sense. (not killing the messenger here, but I think his experiment hasn't been thoroughly fleshed out.)
@@jrsoldano1444 Good to know. I'm going to research it more this week and also try to get ahold of him and figure it out. I appreciate the fact check.
@@jrsoldano1444 Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
Can categorically state its not 10bit.
Also, the prores file being externally recorded has more artifacts and less detail than the internal avchd. The only thing prores has over the internal is it handles moving subjects slightly better... But not extra batteries extra storage larger files better.
Thank you for that insight. I didn't know about the artifacting. I noticed some improvement actually in underexposed shadow lifting, but I'm interested to know what you have experienced.
Any idea if this works on the mk1 , also is there a definitive way of showing the 10bits for proof to my clients?
Yes, I believe the original article I reference in this video first applied this to the Mki. If you put the footage into your non linear editor and bring up lumetri scopes, you should see whether or not the footage is 8-bit or 10-bit. Make sure the scopes are rendering or set to 10-bit. You should see what I mean at 3:15 of my video here. Let me know if that makes sense or not.
@@ginger_dog thx for the reply
@@benmcnights1763 Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
The legendary Kenny from OwlBot just did a video on this just a few days ago. He didn't use that specific recorder and he picked ProRes HQ and that doesn't offer enough to make it worth it. The method you show here might create more data to work with. I don't think I want to deal with 10x bigger file sizes though. But maybe in a few years that doesn't matter at all so I'll hold on to this camera for sure.
Here's Kenny's video: ua-cam.com/video/xTPQch4o5oo/v-deo.html
Thank you for this very helpful tip. I've been shooting tests and talking to experts like crazy the last couple of days and am coming to very similar conclusions. New video will be coming out soon to address this. Thank you again.
@@ginger_dog No worries. I enjoy seeing this camera getting the love it deserves so I had to click on your video. I'm not letting mine go anytime soon. It's still a relevant piece of kit.
@@mauritsnienhuis You got that right!
@@mauritsnienhuis Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
@@ginger_dog Thanks for the update!
Dude, talk about fortuitous timing! I just picked up the C100 Mark 2 this week with only 490 hours on it. 10-bit? Incredible!!! Now I just need to grab an external recorder. Research time. Recommendations?
No way! How did you find one with only 490 hours. That's dope! Well, like I said in the video, so far the Ninja 2 is the only one that I have documented to work, BUT I assume that any Atomos recorder with HDMI in will work. IF that is the case, I would consider what size would be convenient for your workflow.
You can always buy one and then return it if it doesn't work with delivering 10-Bit or is the wrong size. I have worked with a 7" external recorder before and now this Ninja 2. Personally, I like the size of the smaller unit because it gets less in my way, is lighter, and keeps things compact for run and gun stuff. If you want cheep, get a Ninja 2 off of eBay. If you want something newer, look into the latest Ninja models. I'm sure they've improved features.
Thanks for the encouragement. So glad this was helpful to you.
He’s 100% wrong. Is just 8 bit, recorded in a 10 bit wrapper. The only difference is that it’s 422 instead of 420, which is where it maps more colors per pixel, which is why there is a difference. It’s 100% not 10 bit though.
It’s the same thing as having an old Movie on VHS and recording over it with your home videos. Just because the container says Titanic, doesn’t mean that’s what’s really inside.
Do not buy a recorder based off of bad info, unless you really value the 422 8-bit over the 420. You will never get 10 bit out of the camera, even if it’s the container you put it in.
@@Robert.DeCorah Again, check out the article at the top of the description. I'll dig into more myself and probably address that as my next video.
@Ajax Media thanks for the analogy. And point taken. Regardless, I was still going to purchase an external monitor/recorder. This just adds a little more incentive.
@@EvanHarper not really a reason to record externally. I’ve never had banding issues with the C100ii, and the file sizes are what is so great about the camera. Recording at 10x the file size and you might as well just buy a 4K camera for all the hard drive space you’d need.
Either way, just wanted to give you real world input. It’s a great camera, even in 2023!
Has this been tested with the Mark I by chance?
If I am not mistaken, the original article that I reference in the video did do this with the Mki, so yes, I believe it works there as well. It should be easy to figure out as long as you have a recorder with AVID DNxHD loaded onto it and access to lumetri scopes.
@@ginger_dog Coo, thank you. Yup I gotta catch the link again and give it a try.
@@boahandarrowsproductions4326 Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
@@ginger_dog Wow, that's great work on your side man. I thank you as well.
@@boahandarrowsproductions4326 Thank you so much. Hope it was helpful.
Mind blown 🤯
Ha ha! Mine too!
He’s 100% wrong. Is just 8 bit, recorded in a 10 bit wrapper. The only difference is that it’s 422 instead of 420, which is where it maps more colors per pixel, which is why there is a difference. It’s 100% not 10 bit though.
It’s the same thing as having an old Movie on VHS and recording over it with your home videos. Just because the container says Titanic, doesn’t mean that’s what’s really inside.
@@Robert.DeCorah
Dang 🤔
@@Robert.DeCorah
I see what you’re saying. Reminds me of the upscaling some DVD players would do. Seems like it’s filling in the blanks but not true 10 bit. No true 10 bit, bites 😉
I’m still happy with the capabilities my C100 MKII has. I’m just a crummy novice and film for recreation. Anyway, thanks for the info.
@@lb7144 Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
10 bit or 8 bit ?????????, can the other canon cine cameras do this? 100, 200, 300…
Ran some tests this week and confirmed this is 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit container unfortunately. See my results here: ua-cam.com/video/W9e9uNp-dg4/v-deo.html Thank you for your feedback and helping me be better.
ua-cam.com/video/ONEGZ0HrahM/v-deo.html
Question, because I surely don’t know. Could you record externally using ProRes Raw and follow the steps as described in the video link? 🤔
Well, you are still not going to get a true 10-bit image. It will be 8-bit wrapped in a 10-bit wrapper. The video you referenced is ultimately taking RAW footage and downgrading it to 422 10-bit. You can always take away information but you can't add what isn't there. So no, this camera will never be able to give you true 10-bit color.
@@ginger_dog
I gotcha. I was wondering if the software could clean it up any better by doing this. Ok, I’m just sticking to simple. 😂
I liked that short you did for the church with those formats.
@@lb7144 Thank you so much! I appreciate it. Yeah, I don't foresee it really being able to give you anything better than the 422 8-bit you can get with the external recorder.