I have an Edwards tenor bought new in 1998, and have never been happy with the trigger range compared to most any other modern tenor I've tried (Shires, Greenhoe, Conn Lindberg...). My tech recommended swapping in the Infinity valve. He's done it a few times with very good results.
Hi Aidan. Do you have a video on the rotary valve from instrument innovations? I would like to know how it compares to other modern rotary valves. I am thinking about upgrading my Bach 42B with a modern valve. I love the sound of the 42B closed wrap. But I have always felt that using the old valve changes the sound to the worse.
Hey, Great video and explanation. I can tell you not only fix them but actually play. Are the Instrument Innovations Thayer vs standard roter. I currently play on double independent Rotax (swiss maybe) valves on my Edwards bass. I used to feel the Thayers were too open and used too much air and had too long a throw. I tend to like the focus of a really good traditional valve with a smart wrap. Is the II rotary similar to the rotax in blow? I like a bass to sound like a trombone rather than tuba and has a bit of brilliance rather than overly dark and heavy and dull. Like the old heavy equipment of the 90's.
The II rotor is a bit more "standard" than the Rotax, IMO- the rotax to me always felt a little small, a little tight, a little narrow for my tastes. Olsen rotors are more normal, a bit more like Greenhoes or other larger, modern rotors.
Thanks Aiden, been waiting for a video like this. From an engineering perspective it's very well designed. What was the european built axial valve you mentioned in the video?
@@AidanRitchie Yes I've looked it up, it looks to me that BOSC strumenti musicali (machine shop in Italy!) produce the axial valve for Haag using 5 axis CNC maching and CAD/CAM software. Improved design compared to the original thayer valve but the contact area is predominently the same. Infinity valve is the best design.
I haven't played one specifically, but they'll be the same as the old stuff. Not bad valves, but they won't last as long or be as easy to service as the Olsen axials.
Aidan 2 questions: 1. How impactful is a muted trombone specific to resistance ( my trumpet teacher never liked me playing with a mute for any extended time because of the impact it might have on my embouchure ) and can the mute aid in reducing volume for nighttime play in my music room? 2. Since I am pretty new to the Trombone when do you advise your new students to get familiar with an F attachment and would you recommend an installation on one for a tenor trombone?
Playing with a mute is just another skill to have- it won't mess you up if you just play with good technique. Honestly, the hardest part on trombone is how it changes the balance of the instrument IMO. As for an F attachment, "installing" one isn't what I would recommend. That's a lot of money and time. I'd just buy a new-to-you instrument with an F attachment at some point. I don't think there's a lower limit on when you should learn F attachment, but it's good not constantly use it as a crutch as well. If you're interested, I am selling that silver 42B (with F attachment).
I wonder whatever happened to the 5 valve Thayer-equipped euphonium that Ed used to bring along to show folks (this was probably 20+ years ago). I recall taking a toot on the thing and it was terrible. Still a musical curiosity...
@@AidanRitchie I don't think so. The tuning slide lengths were pretty far off--consider the short length of the 2nd valve branch on a normal euphonium. Now try to figure out how to get a half-step out of a Thayer. The valves felt leaky; I don't know if that was the cause, but it felt pretty stuffy. You'd have more fun on an ophicleide,. The Thayer valve works on a trombone because you're using it to insert a pretty long stretch of tubing. My Willson tuba has a Rotax valve on a thumb trigger as the 5th valve; maybe a single Thayer might work in the same position.
@@AidanRitchie Well, I'll ask around to see if anyone remembers what happened to it. I suspect that it was disposed of from Ed's estate after he passed. I remember being asked if I wanted any of his stock of tubing, etc. but golly, that was a long time ago...
Hi Aiden, how would you say the infinity valve compares to the normal thayer (such as shires and edwards). Is there any difference between them in how them play, such as being more open than the other? Or is it just for the sole purpose of longevity and maintenance.
And do you think you could also mention why you didn't like the other Bach 50 AF3? Like what specifically about those models you didn't like/think were awful. Just curious because I might be looking into a B50AF3
Bach doesn't really know how to set up the Olsen axial. Sometimes they get it right and the horns are great, most of the time they are not right and they just don't feel good. I'd only buy one that I had played and I knew was good (there was one at NAMM a few years ago) or have someone build the section who knows what they are doing.
They impart less color to the sound than aluminum or stainless thayers, play easier than basically all of them, and will last longer than all of them. You can buy parts directly from the guy! That's why I dig them so much.
Hey Aidan, I have one more question if you don't mind. Do you know if a stock bach 50af3 is modular like the shires? I'm curious because I know on the shires you can switch out different parts with other shires parts, but I didn't know if bach had this option as well.
I've just had Olsen Infinity Valves installed on my Bach 50B. Totally transformed the horn!
Mine are on the way...
Did your Bach originally have the regular Bach rotary valves?
I have an Edwards tenor bought new in 1998, and have never been happy with the trigger range compared to most any other modern tenor I've tried (Shires, Greenhoe, Conn Lindberg...). My tech recommended swapping in the Infinity valve. He's done it a few times with very good results.
That's what I have on my bass now! Love them.
Hi Aidan. Do you have a video on the rotary valve from instrument innovations? I would like to know how it compares to other modern rotary valves. I am thinking about upgrading my Bach 42B with a modern valve. I love the sound of the 42B closed wrap. But I have always felt that using the old valve changes the sound to the worse.
I don't own one at the moment. But they are good valves. When set up right, a good fraction of what you get with a greenhoe.
Hey,
Great video and explanation. I can tell you not only fix them but actually play.
Are the Instrument Innovations Thayer vs standard roter. I currently play on double independent Rotax (swiss maybe) valves on my Edwards bass.
I used to feel the Thayers were too open and used too much air and had too long a throw. I tend to like the focus of a really good traditional valve with a smart wrap. Is the II rotary similar to the rotax in blow? I like a bass to sound like a trombone rather than tuba and has a bit of brilliance rather than overly dark and heavy and dull. Like the old heavy equipment of the 90's.
The II rotor is a bit more "standard" than the Rotax, IMO- the rotax to me always felt a little small, a little tight, a little narrow for my tastes. Olsen rotors are more normal, a bit more like Greenhoes or other larger, modern rotors.
Thanks Aiden, been waiting for a video like this. From an engineering perspective it's very well designed. What was the european built axial valve you mentioned in the video?
Perhaps Bosc, perhaps Haag? I know there's a couple.
@@AidanRitchie Yes I've looked it up, it looks to me that BOSC strumenti musicali (machine shop in Italy!) produce the axial valve for Haag using 5 axis CNC maching and CAD/CAM software. Improved design compared to the original thayer valve but the contact area is predominently the same. Infinity valve is the best design.
@@greennigel6398 interesting! I thought Bosc was Spanish. Oh well, looks like Olsen wins again.
Have you played/what are your thoughts on the Milashius axial valves, built with Ed Thayer's old equipment?
I haven't played one specifically, but they'll be the same as the old stuff. Not bad valves, but they won't last as long or be as easy to service as the Olsen axials.
I think that they should use mag lev which i think would work.
Haha!
Aidan 2 questions: 1. How impactful is a muted trombone specific to resistance ( my trumpet teacher never liked me playing with a mute for any extended time because of the impact it might have on my embouchure ) and can the mute aid in reducing volume for nighttime play in my music room? 2. Since I am pretty new to the Trombone when do you advise your new students to get familiar with an F attachment and would you recommend an installation on one for a tenor trombone?
Playing with a mute is just another skill to have- it won't mess you up if you just play with good technique. Honestly, the hardest part on trombone is how it changes the balance of the instrument IMO.
As for an F attachment, "installing" one isn't what I would recommend. That's a lot of money and time. I'd just buy a new-to-you instrument with an F attachment at some point.
I don't think there's a lower limit on when you should learn F attachment, but it's good not constantly use it as a crutch as well.
If you're interested, I am selling that silver 42B (with F attachment).
Can I open my infinity valve just like a regular Thayer or is it a different process?
Should be the same. Just be a bit more careful with the bearings as you take out the core.
I wonder whatever happened to the 5 valve Thayer-equipped euphonium that Ed used to bring along to show folks (this was probably 20+ years ago). I recall taking a toot on the thing and it was terrible. Still a musical curiosity...
I'd love to play that!!
@@AidanRitchie I don't think so. The tuning slide lengths were pretty far off--consider the short length of the 2nd valve branch on a normal euphonium. Now try to figure out how to get a half-step out of a Thayer. The valves felt leaky; I don't know if that was the cause, but it felt pretty stuffy.
You'd have more fun on an ophicleide,. The Thayer valve works on a trombone because you're using it to insert a pretty long stretch of tubing.
My Willson tuba has a Rotax valve on a thumb trigger as the 5th valve; maybe a single Thayer might work in the same position.
@@tubastuff oh I'm sure it was awful. Still want to play it though.
@@AidanRitchie Well, I'll ask around to see if anyone remembers what happened to it. I suspect that it was disposed of from Ed's estate after he passed. I remember being asked if I wanted any of his stock of tubing, etc. but golly, that was a long time ago...
Hi Aiden, how would you say the infinity valve compares to the normal thayer (such as shires and edwards). Is there any difference between them in how them play, such as being more open than the other? Or is it just for the sole purpose of longevity and maintenance.
And do you think you could also mention why you didn't like the other Bach 50 AF3? Like what specifically about those models you didn't like/think were awful. Just curious because I might be looking into a B50AF3
Bach doesn't really know how to set up the Olsen axial. Sometimes they get it right and the horns are great, most of the time they are not right and they just don't feel good. I'd only buy one that I had played and I knew was good (there was one at NAMM a few years ago) or have someone build the section who knows what they are doing.
They impart less color to the sound than aluminum or stainless thayers, play easier than basically all of them, and will last longer than all of them. You can buy parts directly from the guy! That's why I dig them so much.
@@AidanRitchie Thanks for the info, I appreciate it 😁
Hey Aidan, I have one more question if you don't mind. Do you know if a stock bach 50af3 is modular like the shires? I'm curious because I know on the shires you can switch out different parts with other shires parts, but I didn't know if bach had this option as well.
Is Brad Close your tech ?
Nope, Benn Hansson
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