Thanks nice job. I've gone full circle over the course of two years. Needed my saddle slid full forward to put me more upright when I started riding. Now, two years later, my saddle is all the way back to deploy more glutes and hamstrings. The later also removes pressure off my knee
I have a theory about how the increasing seat tube angles and reach numbers came about. The verdict: we have to thank dropperposts. Because of dropper posts, we can move the saddle out of the way easily. Before that, the seattubeangle had to be shallow, to get it out of the way when stood up. This made longer reach numbers then neccesary. To compensate the loss in toptube length. What do you think?
Definitely true. They were talking about that on either the GMBN or BikeRadar Podcast the other day. Dropper posts are such a huge improvement for mountain bikes. After getting used to riding with one, I would rather ride a rigid bike with a dropper than a full suss without one .
So weird I was actually playing with this yesterday... just a leisurely loop with mainly down then mainly up but I ended up slamming the saddle all the way up for the climb back... it’s my silly bike XC HT but with short stem for when I find jumps i can’t resist so very light front end change compared to its design and steep seat tube anyway .. (and dropper routed through BB)
My 2014 Trance SX has a seat tube angle of 72.5°. Since I go up about as much as I go down (and suck at it, unfortunately) you bet I'm going to try that saddle as far forward as it can go. lol
thank you very much for Video, question related to impacted Wrists, Am I thinking correctly to say having a lower Seat Tube Angle, which would also mean a longer Reach? which also could cause more pressure on the wrists?
nice vidseo. i changed many hardtail bikes (focus raven, giant xtc advanced 29) and AM ebikes (moterra, sam2, jam2, heckler, orbea wild)but riding i am always looking for more space back with my ass. could you suggest me any bike models wit very low angle? i am 191 cm with long femur (about 64 cm). thanks
All the big fuss about steeper STA... Apparently a big amount of new frames comes with that. But if it changes anything? Think not because you have still a big margin of adjustment. Of course it will shorten your TT, but yeah old frames still can be up to date
Yes it does. Old school frames might have ST angles in the 71-73 range, while new frames can be 76+. Can't make up that difference by just sliding the seat forward, and yes as you said it shortens your TT. Also, if the frame has a slack actual ST angle, when you drop your saddle, that slack seat tube puts the saddle right at your knees. Not ideal. That doesn't mean old bikes are unrideable and you can't have fun on them, but I think it's silly to pretend that new school geo doesn't make a difference.
@@HollyBoni Yes, you're right. What was i thinking, when writing that comment?! Maybe i was drunk or something :) You can't put in one line old school and new school frames. Have a good one :)
by making it steeper, doesn't that mean that if you have long legs (thighs) your feet position will be awkward and promote knee pain? Also, won't it shft your position forward? Doesn't that make you weight the handlebars more? That's quite an uncomfortable position if you ask me.
#askgmbntech Hi Doddy and Henry i'm thinking about getting a hardtail to make my local trail more interesting, but how does geometry compare between hardtail and full sus regarding the feel of the bike? My current bike has a 467mm reach in size L and it feels a bit short, however when looking at hardtails the tend to have a shorter reach even in XL. I'm 182cm tall by the way.
Look at bird frames or my personal favourite, the 'pipedream moxie mx3' There's the Santa Cruz chameleon, nukeproof scout. Hardcore hardtails have geo similar to full Sus
To find a frame size that would fit, How does the seat tube angle effect the reach? Move the seat forward on the rails, it will put you over the bottom bracket, so the point of the reach measurement and seat tube would be reduced., Would seat tube effect effective top tube?
Would it change the distance to the bars from he seat? Same Reach numbers. That is what is confusing. Would you still need to know the effective top tube measurement to get the right size frame?
@@DG-tf9rp Reach tells you how long the bike feels when standing up, effective top tube tells you how the bike feels while sitting on the saddle. When you slide the saddle forward, it doesn't affect reach, but it does effect the effective top tube. The seat will be closer to the handlebars, so while seated the bike will feel shorter, more cramped. A steeper seat tube does the same thing. That's why some bikes that have humongous reach numbers but also steep ST angles don't feel long when you're in the saddle, when you look at the geo chart the effective top tube is not that long.
As far as I can tell, seat tube angle (STA) is meaningless for descending. That makes sense because we get off the saddle for descents. So, is STA *only* about climbing? When I'm climbing steep and technical, I get off my saddle. The only time I sit is when the trail is easy, and I want to recover before the next challenge. I don’t see STA as being important when I’m relaxing. Am I missing something? Or is STA just another way to drive us to buy new bicycles?
I might be mistaken, but i think a steeper sta is so one can remain seated while climbing steep more technical areas. If i stand up when climbing tech i either spin the tire or nearly loop out. I find seated to be a more effective position for power delivery when climbing, but that is the only use of a steeper STA i can think of. If you find yourself out of the saddle most of the time even when climbing, you probably would not benefit much from a steeper seat tube angle.
Why would you not sit while climbing? If you can go up your "technical" climbs stood up, they can't be very technical or steep. To maintain good traction, you must remain seated to clean steep and technical climbs.
@@gatoryak7332 yep nothing on moving seat back or lower seat post to stop sore hands or change bars, it was very basic and people are best riding how they feel comfortable so show them how to get comfort from whatever pain they get.
wazzup105 because the longer your seat post gets,the more that feels. So if your in the saddle,with a high saddle,that’s going to make your bike effectively longer. It’s the same thing with head tube angles as well, a 1 degree or 2 degree difference can feel a whole lot different
Because it is. When it comes to geo and bike fit, a degree here or there, or a cm here or there can make a massive difference in terms of how the bike feels. For example to me moving the bars up or down just 1cm has a massive effect, the fit feels completely different.
Future bike companies: 90 degree seat angle 0 degree head angle 2m reach Bike testers, seat angle could be steeper, and it should be lower, longer and slacker
Slamming your saddle forward and backward affect the position of your foot on the pedal. Too much forward, the pedal will be at the middle of your foot which make heel down difficult & twitchy going downhill. I am 5'9" on 2017 medium Spesh E29 (comfort & playful for me), of cause I think if you upsize your bike "may be" this will not be a big problem.
More content similar to GMBN's on EMBN please? I enjoy EMBN and it is really informative, but feel it is not up to GMBN standards. You all work together, please sort it out. :)
Why aren’t bike frames designed with the bb on the chain stay, the wouldn’t be any chain growth meaning that the suspension would work much better and pedal kickback wouldn’t be an issue why hasn’t this idea hit the mainstream and have any companies tried it and it not worked
I have seen several brands having chainstay around the BB, I can't think of the all the brands, but Pole did something like that. there was another brand did it too, I don't remember right now which.
Then the suspension would be ineffective since the rider isn 't isolated from the bumps on the track.. just like if the foot plates on a pogostick where mounted below the spring.. 🙂
Lol, because then the suspension would literally not move at all since your weight would be unsprung. Concentric pivot systems do work and don't mostly have any chain growth.
Hate the steep seat tubes. Might be alright if you have a short torso, long limbs and little feet. Makes it impossible to fit for some people. On road bikes, you see those angles on track and TT bikes, and it is compensated with lower bars to keep the same effective hip angle for optimal power output. On a trail bike there is no way to compensate, the bars can not be lower than the fork allows.
Think of it as a lever, pivoting over the wheels axle. (vertical above the contact point) When you move forward, the leverage of your weight gets grater, and thus more grip. Upto the point where you're too close to the front wheel and loading that one up more.
@Valentin Maissen sorry but that's utter nonsense. The further to the front you shift your weight, the less load is on the back wheel - _obviously._ (You can in fact explain this as leverage, but it works the other way around from what you say: the further you move _backwards,_ the more leverage you have.) But in a steep climb, that's anyway pretty irrelevant because you'll always balance so that _almost all_ of the weight is over the back wheel (i.e., so that you just don't flip into a wheelie). Notice that in a 30° climb, all seat angles become more something like 45°... The reason a steep seat angle works better on climbs is simply that you don't need to distort your body as much (or stand up) to prevent a wheelie, but can instead keep a relatively natural position which makes it also easier to control the pedal torque, and that's why a steeper angle ultimately also helps with grip.
As you stated early on in the video. This term of effective seat tube angle is bull shit. Then tell me how this (effective angle) has any effect on the actual saddle position. It is just the industry being lazy.
Please stop saying Guys...Guys...Guys. plenty of great female riders out there. Some may be watching ( if not all already turned off by the Guys only thing)
Henry, did you twice say 'how we can effect (sic) our seat tube angle'? Sorry to be that guy, but your high standard of presenting is let down by such a basic mistake and it's a bad example to schoolkids learning English. And it really grates!
Henry is one of the coolest dudes ever. I love listening to him.
sounds like a 40 year old smoker! 🤣
Cute too!
So how about a full bike fit from scratch video from Henry ?
Great idea!!
Really informative and possibly one of those things most of us don't take into consideration.
oooooh Henry I need to hear about the coil setup on that Strive asap! Been looking at ding one on mine for a bit now.
so many questions answered here in this video ! Awesome explinations henry, cheers !
very useful explanation, thanks!
Thanks nice job. I've gone full circle over the course of two years. Needed my saddle slid full forward to put me more upright when I started riding. Now, two years later, my saddle is all the way back to deploy more glutes and hamstrings. The later also removes pressure off my knee
What seat tube angle does your bike have? And how tall are you?
@@erikd6124 not sure. Its a 2019 carbon stumpy chipped hi. I'm 5'10" it seems the slacker the seat angle the angle the more comfy I feel
it has opened my eyes. thanks GMBN!
Very clear and vv interesting...never actually thought about saddle impact seat tube angle, tho of course it obvious when u see this.
Top work
I have a theory about how the increasing seat tube angles and reach numbers came about.
The verdict: we have to thank dropperposts. Because of dropper posts, we can move the saddle out of the way easily. Before that, the seattubeangle had to be shallow, to get it out of the way when stood up. This made longer reach numbers then neccesary. To compensate the loss in toptube length.
What do you think?
Definitely true. They were talking about that on either the GMBN or BikeRadar Podcast the other day.
Dropper posts are such a huge improvement for mountain bikes. After getting used to riding with one, I would rather ride a rigid bike with a dropper than a full suss without one .
Really useful thanks
Very helpful....thanks!!
That's a pretty cool and well explained explanation.
Lovely video!
Thanks for the info, so needed this!!
Great video as usual guys!
So weird I was actually playing with this yesterday... just a leisurely loop with mainly down then mainly up but I ended up slamming the saddle all the way up for the climb back... it’s my silly bike XC HT but with short stem for when I find jumps i can’t resist so very light front end change compared to its design and steep seat tube anyway .. (and dropper routed through BB)
Nice Video, really helpful.
My 2014 Trance SX has a seat tube angle of 72.5°. Since I go up about as much as I go down (and suck at it, unfortunately) you bet I'm going to try that saddle as far forward as it can go. lol
Great video! Well communicated
thank you very much for Video, question related to impacted Wrists, Am I thinking correctly to say having a lower Seat Tube Angle, which would also mean a longer Reach? which also could cause more pressure on the wrists?
Thnx guys for the information. 💘 you guys
Excellent
That's interesting and all, but how do you install a bottle cage?!
put some ductape on it make sure ur handlebar is atleast 850mm to leave room for it
It’s so funny when you get a new bike you always play with it and as you go on as a cyclist and keep on making adjustments.
With Auto-sag, I'd need to have all of my measurements taken from the seated position correct?
nice vidseo. i changed many hardtail bikes (focus raven, giant xtc advanced 29) and AM ebikes (moterra, sam2, jam2, heckler, orbea wild)but riding i am always looking for more space back with my ass. could you suggest me any bike models wit very low angle? i am 191 cm with long femur (about 64 cm). thanks
What kind of degree measurement do you have and where to buy?
All the big fuss about steeper STA... Apparently a big amount of new frames comes with that. But if it changes anything? Think not because you have still a big margin of adjustment. Of course it will shorten your TT, but yeah old frames still can be up to date
Yes it does. Old school frames might have ST angles in the 71-73 range, while new frames can be 76+. Can't make up that difference by just sliding the seat forward, and yes as you said it shortens your TT. Also, if the frame has a slack actual ST angle, when you drop your saddle, that slack seat tube puts the saddle right at your knees. Not ideal.
That doesn't mean old bikes are unrideable and you can't have fun on them, but I think it's silly to pretend that new school geo doesn't make a difference.
@@HollyBoni Yes, you're right. What was i thinking, when writing that comment?! Maybe i was drunk or something :) You can't put in one line old school and new school frames. Have a good one :)
by making it steeper, doesn't that mean that if you have long legs (thighs) your feet position will be awkward and promote knee pain?
Also, won't it shft your position forward? Doesn't that make you weight the handlebars more? That's quite an uncomfortable position if you ask me.
I have the same bike pictured here in 29 , loving the geometry ..... what are the graphics on the top tube ?
i'm not sure what one he has, they get them from here
www.allmountainstyle.com/collections/ams-honeycomb-frame-guards-xl-size
hope this helps.
#askgmbntech Hi Doddy and Henry i'm thinking about getting a hardtail to make my local trail more interesting, but how does geometry compare between hardtail and full sus regarding the feel of the bike? My current bike has a 467mm reach in size L and it feels a bit short, however when looking at hardtails the tend to have a shorter reach even in XL. I'm 182cm tall by the way.
Look at bird frames or my personal favourite, the 'pipedream moxie mx3'
There's the Santa Cruz chameleon, nukeproof scout. Hardcore hardtails have geo similar to full Sus
Can you please talk about how steep seat tube angles destroy your knees and what the next "remedy" for that will be and how much it will cost?
Lol, Geezer
@@ml.9746 you mad, chile?
There is no scientific evidence of this being true as far as I am aware.
Great vid
Nice explanation...this guy sounds like he should be narrating children's bedtime stories on cbeebies
To find a frame size that would fit, How does the seat tube angle effect the reach? Move the seat forward on the rails, it will put you over the bottom bracket, so the point of the reach measurement and seat tube would be reduced., Would seat tube effect effective top tube?
STA has absolutely nothing to do with the reach of the bike.
Would it change the distance to the bars from he seat? Same Reach numbers. That is what is confusing. Would you still need to know the effective top tube measurement to get the right size frame?
@@DG-tf9rp Reach tells you how long the bike feels when standing up, effective top tube tells you how the bike feels while sitting on the saddle. When you slide the saddle forward, it doesn't affect reach, but it does effect the effective top tube. The seat will be closer to the handlebars, so while seated the bike will feel shorter, more cramped. A steeper seat tube does the same thing. That's why some bikes that have humongous reach numbers but also steep ST angles don't feel long when you're in the saddle, when you look at the geo chart the effective top tube is not that long.
@@HollyBoni Thank you for the excellent explanation, now it makes sense to me.
Does anybody know what tool hes using?
As far as I can tell, seat tube angle (STA) is meaningless for descending. That makes sense because we get off the saddle for descents. So, is STA *only* about climbing? When I'm climbing steep and technical, I get off my saddle. The only time I sit is when the trail is easy, and I want to recover before the next challenge. I don’t see STA as being important when I’m relaxing. Am I missing something? Or is STA just another way to drive us to buy new bicycles?
I might be mistaken, but i think a steeper sta is so one can remain seated while climbing steep more technical areas. If i stand up when climbing tech i either spin the tire or nearly loop out. I find seated to be a more effective position for power delivery when climbing, but that is the only use of a steeper STA i can think of. If you find yourself out of the saddle most of the time even when climbing, you probably would not benefit much from a steeper seat tube angle.
STA is the flavor of the week to drive bike sales. It will pass. To be replaced by something "new" and equally stupid.
Why would you not sit while climbing? If you can go up your "technical" climbs stood up, they can't be very technical or steep. To maintain good traction, you must remain seated to clean steep and technical climbs.
@@th_js You must be kidding, but I don't get the humor. What am I missing?
if steeper is better for climb, why does XC have slacker seat angles than enduro?
I want to build a nukeproof mega 2020 a dream build for sure
@@RealMTBAddict "And?" what?
@@RealMTBAddict Most of the comments don't.
He explained that having your seat post height changes the seat tube angles that's it.
He also explained that moving the saddle fore or aft affects the effective seat tube angle.
@@gatoryak7332 yep nothing on moving seat back or lower seat post to stop sore hands or change bars, it was very basic and people are best riding how they feel comfortable so show them how to get comfort from whatever pain they get.
Why is 1 degree difference "huge".
wazzup105 because the longer your seat post gets,the more that feels. So if your in the saddle,with a high saddle,that’s going to make your bike effectively longer. It’s the same thing with head tube angles as well, a 1 degree or 2 degree difference can feel a whole lot different
Because it is. When it comes to geo and bike fit, a degree here or there, or a cm here or there can make a massive difference in terms of how the bike feels. For example to me moving the bars up or down just 1cm has a massive effect, the fit feels completely different.
Future bike companies:
90 degree seat angle
0 degree head angle
2m reach
Bike testers, seat angle could be steeper, and it should be lower, longer and slacker
And 2043 Cannondale is the big thing everybody's talking about, with their _revolutionary_ decision to make the chainstays 0.1 mm shorter...
.....Cue the next generation of dropper posts with layback to counter the too steep seat angles of modern bikes?
Slamming your saddle forward and backward affect the position of your foot on the pedal. Too much forward, the pedal will be at the middle of your foot which make heel down difficult & twitchy going downhill. I am 5'9" on 2017 medium Spesh E29 (comfort & playful for me), of cause I think if you upsize your bike "may be" this will not be a big problem.
More content similar to GMBN's on EMBN please? I enjoy EMBN and it is really informative, but feel it is not up to GMBN standards. You all work together, please sort it out. :)
Like the haircut forrest sorry henry
Why aren’t bike frames designed with the bb on the chain stay, the wouldn’t be any chain growth meaning that the suspension would work much better and pedal kickback wouldn’t be an issue why hasn’t this idea hit the mainstream and have any companies tried it and it not worked
I have seen several brands having chainstay around the BB, I can't think of the all the brands, but Pole did something like that.
there was another brand did it too, I don't remember right now which.
Then the suspension would be ineffective since the rider isn 't isolated from the bumps on the track.. just like if the foot plates on a pogostick where mounted below the spring.. 🙂
dennis rasmussen oh yes didn’t think about that factor silly me😂😂
Lol, because then the suspension would literally not move at all since your weight would be unsprung. Concentric pivot systems do work and don't mostly have any chain growth.
Hate the steep seat tubes. Might be alright if you have a short torso, long limbs and little feet. Makes it impossible to fit for some people. On road bikes, you see those angles on track and TT bikes, and it is compensated with lower bars to keep the same effective hip angle for optimal power output. On a trail bike there is no way to compensate, the bars can not be lower than the fork allows.
The steep seat angles allow the low bars, not compensate for them..
*bike's handling (typo in title)
0:48 Why is that? You haven't explained.
more weight on the back tyre = more grip
Think of it as a lever, pivoting over the wheels axle. (vertical above the contact point)
When you move forward, the leverage of your weight gets grater, and thus more grip. Upto the point where you're too close to the front wheel and loading that one up more.
@Valentin Maissen sorry but that's utter nonsense. The further to the front you shift your weight, the less load is on the back wheel - _obviously._ (You can in fact explain this as leverage, but it works the other way around from what you say: the further you move _backwards,_ the more leverage you have.)
But in a steep climb, that's anyway pretty irrelevant because you'll always balance so that _almost all_ of the weight is over the back wheel (i.e., so that you just don't flip into a wheelie). Notice that in a 30° climb, all seat angles become more something like 45°...
The reason a steep seat angle works better on climbs is simply that you don't need to distort your body as much (or stand up) to prevent a wheelie, but can instead keep a relatively natural position which makes it also easier to control the pedal torque, and that's why a steeper angle ultimately also helps with grip.
is it just me or is the GMBN Tech logo different
It is.
It is.
it is.
As you stated early on in the video. This term of effective seat tube angle is bull shit. Then tell me how this (effective angle) has any effect on the actual saddle position. It is just the industry being lazy.
Yeah, everybody has their seat at a different height, which means that effective STA is indeed total BS.
Effect vs affect should be pronounced differently...
Wow he messed up one letter on one word! Fire him!
It’s fun to pick on Henry’s pronunciation though....
First?
Please stop saying Guys...Guys...Guys. plenty of great female riders out there. Some may be watching ( if not all already turned off by the Guys only thing)
"Guys" is gender neutral, dude
"Guys" is used for both, male and female riders.
What a load of nonsense.Get a bike fit or say addios to your knees. Remember the rule of squats. Knee behind your toes. Same in pedalling.
Henry, did you twice say 'how we can effect (sic) our seat tube angle'? Sorry to be that guy, but your high standard of presenting is let down by such a basic mistake and it's a bad example to schoolkids learning English. And it really grates!
Oh no he messed up one word!
Surely you aren’t serious, life must be difficult being that pedantic :)
MrDblStop, then don't be that guy, twat..
I'm pretty sure you're joking.