The transition from Awakening's inflated HP to Fates' meager HP is wild. HP being scaled down for the entire playable cast really does highlight units in Fates who can eat hits and are bulky like Benny. Birthright is notorious for having a cast made out of paper minus a couple of exceptions.
Yeah the downscale was huge, I think good for sure though. As you said, it makes unit bulk an actually noteworthy trait, which is neat. Classic rip Birthright moment though lmao
earlygame non-robin/fred MVP of my lunatic+ playthrough - miriel with seraph robe it let her take a hit while keeping a speed pair-up, and actually enemy phase one enemy👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀
I love it when my units can survive a singular hit from the enemy For real though, that's pretty funny lol. I've yet to play even Awakening Luna let alone Luna+, gotta get around to it at some point. Probably on stream, so uh... I'm expecting that to be fun in a not dissimilar way to some of the Rev streams lol
True, good mention and thanks for the reminder! Dang, I'm literally doing a Thracia playthrough for the channel right now where I'm thinking about everyone's fatigue levels, so I shoulda thought of that ahaha
This might be a hot take, I think Conquest having lower HP bases on everyone allowed for a much more interesting gameplay progression, opposite to games like 3H/Awakening/FE9 where they either have to create gamestates that shred through 60 HP easily leaving more average units in the dust or accept being easily trivialized. It's a game-warping stat undeniably
I don't think it's that hot of a take, at any rate. Fates' low HP values I do find really interesting, because it does mean that you have to consider one-shottable bulk thresholds for certain units throughout the entire game. Which is neat, because I do think that in an SRPG, your units should be at actual risk, or you're kinda just spectating. Though usually less low for the enemies because the strength of the tools you have at your disposal means they have to be generally bulkier than your units to compensate, which makes sense
@@akirasou my main grip about thay is that it compelled me to dip as many frontliners as possible into fighter for the angelic vest. I am still annoyed that Beruka doesn't have thief as her reclass option because of lore, but can't deny the exyra bulk help a lot.
@@noukan42 that's totally fair, yeah. Turns out that HP+5 actually has some meaning when your units don't have that much HP in all for the most part. That being said, I think that kinda reasoning behind class dipping is fine, because it does encourage interacting with the game mechanic and more strategic planning
vander was a good tutorial of the value of a high HP stat. almost none of his other stats were any good, yet he is still very useful for those early maps.
I’d honestly argue that he beats out Louis if intending to use both only temporarily because his better move and lower defense but higher he means he can take damage easier to allow other units to get Healing exp (notably with Micaiah in early game)
Hp is usually in my top wants when a unit levels up early game. Magic/atk and def/res depending on the unit type are usually my first want while health and speed come after. It gives that extra protection and sometimes can make or break a unit.
Yeah definitely. Especially given that HP growths tend to be higher than Def and Res growths, it can be really important for surviving typically any two rounds of combat early in the game. It also just shocks me how bad some HP bases are in some games lol. Like Hector having 19 base HP I don't think will ever stop being funny to me
Man, Fates HP values are lower than I remembered. I love it though, especially on BR since most of your Units are fairly squishy. It lets Units like Rinkah who are otherwise of pretty little note have a niche as just being a halfway decent roadblock thanks to her high Def (at least, this would be true if she didn't start with E Axes, thanks IS).
Yeah, Fates HP values being so low is a nice contrast to the massive HP bloat moment in Awakening and Three Houses especially, I think. The Rinkah E Axes moment is so real though...
I feel like the segment from 2:08 to 2:55 is too dense and uses language that is too general, abstract, and wordy to get the point across. The chart with the three units also contributes to the confusion, as it divides the watcher's attention in two. Watching some battles in action as examples would have helped a lot. The chart itself could also warrant its own section analyzing it.
Hp is actually very important to speedrunning Castlevania games, This is because Alucard is ho- I mean this is because damage boosting through certain enemies is much faster than just beating them normally.
a think that i find wied is that Hp is nomelyy the stat he you have more of goruth thend to be hier and evey uni thas at the very lest 10 hp ponts exept for phantos ho is hol gimeic is that they day i 1 hit an in clasic ifen embels the prosio was ebne biger les coen theic an rnadai dawn all of thei sntit cap at 20 exect p that caps a 80 in rnaon doen thya are clas ho have the smae hp cap as other clses like mages
high hp you dont really feel but man 1 vs 2 rounds of combat really makes all the difference. Also, I feel true damage sucks in fe7 outside of just Luna. The fire dragon's stupid true damage means any unit below that exact hp threshold just CANNOT attack the final boss at all. On my playthrough of eliwood mode, *this included eliwood.* Bad experience that sucked. The 1hp minimum in echoes in particular is so tasty because mages can and will take themselves down to 1hp with casting, especially as counters. (Best way to cheese delthea recruitment, let her go ham until she's at 1hp, lmao). That 1hp can make all the difference... same anti-tanking measure as Engage's back-up attacks, I feel like. A minor true dmg measure to prevent you from taking out a whole map on enemy phase. Great video! I really love the stat series.
A unit that gets 1rko in retaliation can still attack, but only once! Also enemy back up attack are, quiet literally, an incentive to juggernaut further and take the whole map on enemy phase. Because if the enemy dies in retaliation, then it can't back up attack!
You make a really good point about FE7 true damage, yeah... I remember Lyn being really ineffectual because she's forced and basically never has enough HP to take a hit from the Fire Dragon, even if heavily invested into lmao. I don't remember how much Spd that boss has, but it was part of why when I decided to give 0 Spd a shot, I chose to do so for FE8 where I would have Slayer siege tomes on my side lol And for sure! Just have to be careful that the Arcanists don't end up going and Recover/Fortify-chaining, because it mostly just gets really tedious more than anything lmao And nawww thanks for the kind words about the video and the series! Since the Res one included sections in defence of Lck and Skl, and then I did Spd already, I'm not sure how many more traditional ones we're going to have Mind, Str/Mag will probably be one as a playthrough-based case study once I eventually get around to the 0 Str FE7 playthrough properly. Then I do eventually want to do one on weapon ranks, and also a vid on movement. So maybe there will be more!
You forgot to mention why HP is important for enemies (bosses specifically): If they have enough hp, you can use them as EXP piñatas for shenanigans aplenty
It's been pretty interesting how many of the FE games handled HP. The first FE games and Echoes having 52 max HP for the playable units, some games like the GBA ones having 60 as the HP cap, others like FE5, FE10 and FE13 80 HP, and others like Fates and Engage, uh, varying by the class, some not even having at least 52 max hp, and others (mostly in Engage) having even more than 80 HP. Nevertheless, having a character with a lot of HP can help contribute to a unit actually surviving hits and being quite bulky by themselves, while the ones that don't end up very fragile. As for the HP growths, it also mostly varies between games. In the first FE game there were some units that had very poor HP growth, like a certain fighter that had like 10% HP growth IIRC lol, something that was mitigated in the DS FE remakes, while in the GBA FE games, the lowest HP growth a playable unit could have was 40%, meaning while they wouldn't gain a lot of HP like the others that had 80% and up growth, they could at least gain a bit of HP just so they wouldn't get stuck with less than 25 HP, which doesn't seem bad since HP is the stat that one unit can have with a lot of points, unlike all other stats (FE1, FE3 and FE5 with most stats caping at 20 lol).
Yeah, the concept of HP caps has definitely been interesting. I do think that the different amounts by class make sense. Or rather, given that by endgame, enemies end up often getting to their class caps in key offensive and bulk stats, it's also a way of limiting how chunky they can be? So I appreciate that And for sure, HP growths are funny. I believe the 10% HP growth is thought to have been a typo? Because normally I would think of the number of units across the series who can get +2 HP levels. Something that I do think could be interesting in a Jagen-type unit especially would be if they had strongly negative HP growth, or if they took permanent damage per turn that could be fatal when fielded on a map Imagine a 20 HP cap in addition to the 20 cap on everything else... it could end up being a pretty interesting small numbers game, even moreso than FE normally is in terms of numbers
I don't think chain attacks on Engage are good. There is only one counter to them with is more or less the same issue with berserk/restore. And giving that skill to a dodgetank will reduce the avoid becoming more of a tradeoff. The same goes for physical tanks as we have def 5, HP stat, and flat damage reduction from Eirika. Then chain attack spam on your units should not be a thing.
The whole *point* of the mechanic is to mitigate your ability to juggernaut. You never face enough enemies at once for this to become a problem before obtaining the Corrin emblem, which gives you the crowd control you need to deal with enemy swarms. If you're dying to enemy chain attacks, the solution is to just... *not* leave your unit alone against a bunch of enemy heroes. Not everything needs a direct counter. It might have been a problem if chain attacks were only useful in enemy hands, but they're immensely helpful for the player, too, letting you take down enemies in fewer actions than you would have otherwise needed, with proper positioning. Making Backup a unit type is one of the best things Engage did; it gives you a legitimate reason to use foot units, rather than just cramming mounts on your team. It's an incredibly well-designed mechanic.
@@caliburnleaf9323 I do not agree. A broken tool on both hands does not balance things out. It is true back up stacking on enemies doesn't become a problem on most maps. The Fallen Lumera Chapter is the main problem. It's not a solution to use Corrin skill if in exchange you're going to get hit by more regular attacks due to losing 15 avoid, it might still be better but that's probably I won't bother do. And it is by getting surrounded blocking enemy's path. Staying out of their range is not an option. I am not against of back up mechanic. It's more that it would have still been useful if: only one back up was allowed for combat, 2/brave 1 for hero's skill, and if back ups alone couldn't kill like precombat damage from FEH. With those restrictions we could cut in half the back up damage from 4 enemies, still around 30% your HP which is crazy, and we could get 20% or 30% with 4 units against 1 enemy, that's without hero. That would also make hero's skill more important. And as for Lucina's skill, it would still be useful to have more than one for reliability. In fact, this could give us an scenario where getting the basic version on 2 units might be better than the plus version on one 1 unit. And kinda worthless to have the plus version on both/all the units leaving them more SP for other skills.
Chain attacks are hard countered by positioning. Using 2 bodies instead of one can significantly reduce the threat potential. Something I learned recently too, if an enemy unit does 0 they will still attack to start a chain allowing you to get free damage/KOs on them
@@caliburnleaf9323 if the juggernaut is getting chipped to death by chains, then the answer is to juggernaut further, to the point it kills any back-up unit on retaliation. This is why Supermages are the best strat to beat any challenge in the game.
I remember the time when Chrom used Necropotence to gain overwhelming card advantage and win the war against Walhart who was on monogreen stompy
How could anyone forget???
i was trying to think of a clever/witty comment. i could not so uh, lovely weather.
Lmaooooooooooo that's much appreciated still! Thanks for watching, and for helping the YT algorithm slightly with the comment :>
The transition from Awakening's inflated HP to Fates' meager HP is wild. HP being scaled down for the entire playable cast really does highlight units in Fates who can eat hits and are bulky like Benny. Birthright is notorious for having a cast made out of paper minus a couple of exceptions.
Yeah the downscale was huge, I think good for sure though. As you said, it makes unit bulk an actually noteworthy trait, which is neat. Classic rip Birthright moment though lmao
earlygame non-robin/fred MVP of my lunatic+ playthrough - miriel with seraph robe
it let her take a hit while keeping a speed pair-up, and actually enemy phase one enemy👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀
I love it when my units can survive a singular hit from the enemy
For real though, that's pretty funny lol. I've yet to play even Awakening Luna let alone Luna+, gotta get around to it at some point. Probably on stream, so uh... I'm expecting that to be fun in a not dissimilar way to some of the Rev streams lol
When the foe crits you and you are left with one health:(gets back up) i didn't hear no bell
Yeah the moments where you live on 1HP are sooooo hype, because then you can say it was definitely totally calculated 😎
@@akirasou or miracle just procs
HP is also a big resource in Thracia, as the more a unit has, the more actions they can preform before becoming fatigued
True, good mention and thanks for the reminder! Dang, I'm literally doing a Thracia playthrough for the channel right now where I'm thinking about everyone's fatigue levels, so I shoulda thought of that ahaha
This might be a hot take, I think Conquest having lower HP bases on everyone allowed for a much more interesting gameplay progression, opposite to games like 3H/Awakening/FE9 where they either have to create gamestates that shred through 60 HP easily leaving more average units in the dust or accept being easily trivialized. It's a game-warping stat undeniably
I don't think it's that hot of a take, at any rate. Fates' low HP values I do find really interesting, because it does mean that you have to consider one-shottable bulk thresholds for certain units throughout the entire game. Which is neat, because I do think that in an SRPG, your units should be at actual risk, or you're kinda just spectating. Though usually less low for the enemies because the strength of the tools you have at your disposal means they have to be generally bulkier than your units to compensate, which makes sense
@@akirasou my main grip about thay is that it compelled me to dip as many frontliners as possible into fighter for the angelic vest. I am still annoyed that Beruka doesn't have thief as her reclass option because of lore, but can't deny the exyra bulk help a lot.
@@noukan42 that's totally fair, yeah. Turns out that HP+5 actually has some meaning when your units don't have that much HP in all for the most part. That being said, I think that kinda reasoning behind class dipping is fine, because it does encourage interacting with the game mechanic and more strategic planning
This is why vander is the unit most likely to be useable way past his expiration date in engage. Being able to take a hit is nice.
It's true, Vander's 40 base HP do be kinda meaty
Echoes: by using the hp we can regain the hp
Any game with good hit rate nosurafu: cool bro
Awakening Nosferatu moment especially, for real for real
@@akirasou now imagine that with Luna. You may as well be a witch
Video on Tellius Weight stat when
If I end up making a video on Tellius Weight/Con at some point, I think that's when you know I'm really reaching for video ideas lmao
vander was a good tutorial of the value of a high HP stat. almost none of his other stats were any good, yet he is still very useful for those early maps.
I’d honestly argue that he beats out Louis if intending to use both only temporarily because his better move and lower defense but higher he means he can take damage easier to allow other units to get Healing exp (notably with Micaiah in early game)
For sure! Turns out that 40 base HP be kinda meaty, especially when Clanne and Framme are sub-20. So there's a lot that the guy can do
Hp is usually in my top wants when a unit levels up early game. Magic/atk and def/res depending on the unit type are usually my first want while health and speed come after.
It gives that extra protection and sometimes can make or break a unit.
Yeah definitely. Especially given that HP growths tend to be higher than Def and Res growths, it can be really important for surviving typically any two rounds of combat early in the game. It also just shocks me how bad some HP bases are in some games lol. Like Hector having 19 base HP I don't think will ever stop being funny to me
@@akirasou yeah hp especially for tanks should be better then some enemies have max health on top of high def compared to lords
Hope you're having a good day c:
Thanks, Tyler! I hope the same to you :D
Man, Fates HP values are lower than I remembered. I love it though, especially on BR since most of your Units are fairly squishy. It lets Units like Rinkah who are otherwise of pretty little note have a niche as just being a halfway decent roadblock thanks to her high Def (at least, this would be true if she didn't start with E Axes, thanks IS).
Yeah, Fates HP values being so low is a nice contrast to the massive HP bloat moment in Awakening and Three Houses especially, I think. The Rinkah E Axes moment is so real though...
Shoutouts to Louise's iconic 35 durability silver bow
...I didn't even notice that when I found the LP Archive image LMAOOOOOOOOO
7:46 Minimum damage of 1 is not present in FE1 and FE3.
Ty for the correction! I found multiple people saying that it was, ripppp
Another banger video.
Nawwwwww, thank you!!
I feel like the segment from 2:08 to 2:55 is too dense and uses language that is too general, abstract, and wordy to get the point across. The chart with the three units also contributes to the confusion, as it divides the watcher's attention in two. Watching some battles in action as examples would have helped a lot. The chart itself could also warrant its own section analyzing it.
Hp is actually very important to speedrunning Castlevania games, This is because Alucard is ho- I mean this is because damage boosting through certain enemies is much faster than just beating them normally.
The only use of HP as a resource is unbanked staffer exp
Lol I mean that's definitely a use for it, chip damage healing grind moment
a think that i find wied is that Hp is nomelyy the stat he you have more of goruth thend to be hier and evey uni thas at the very lest 10 hp ponts exept for phantos ho is hol gimeic is that they day i 1 hit an in clasic ifen embels the prosio was ebne biger les coen theic an rnadai dawn all of thei sntit cap at 20 exect p that caps a 80 in rnaon doen thya are clas ho have the smae hp cap as other clses like mages
high hp you dont really feel but man 1 vs 2 rounds of combat really makes all the difference. Also, I feel true damage sucks in fe7 outside of just Luna. The fire dragon's stupid true damage means any unit below that exact hp threshold just CANNOT attack the final boss at all. On my playthrough of eliwood mode, *this included eliwood.* Bad experience that sucked.
The 1hp minimum in echoes in particular is so tasty because mages can and will take themselves down to 1hp with casting, especially as counters. (Best way to cheese delthea recruitment, let her go ham until she's at 1hp, lmao). That 1hp can make all the difference... same anti-tanking measure as Engage's back-up attacks, I feel like. A minor true dmg measure to prevent you from taking out a whole map on enemy phase.
Great video! I really love the stat series.
A unit that gets 1rko in retaliation can still attack, but only once!
Also enemy back up attack are, quiet literally, an incentive to juggernaut further and take the whole map on enemy phase. Because if the enemy dies in retaliation, then it can't back up attack!
You make a really good point about FE7 true damage, yeah... I remember Lyn being really ineffectual because she's forced and basically never has enough HP to take a hit from the Fire Dragon, even if heavily invested into lmao. I don't remember how much Spd that boss has, but it was part of why when I decided to give 0 Spd a shot, I chose to do so for FE8 where I would have Slayer siege tomes on my side lol
And for sure! Just have to be careful that the Arcanists don't end up going and Recover/Fortify-chaining, because it mostly just gets really tedious more than anything lmao
And nawww thanks for the kind words about the video and the series! Since the Res one included sections in defence of Lck and Skl, and then I did Spd already, I'm not sure how many more traditional ones we're going to have
Mind, Str/Mag will probably be one as a playthrough-based case study once I eventually get around to the 0 Str FE7 playthrough properly. Then I do eventually want to do one on weapon ranks, and also a vid on movement. So maybe there will be more!
You forgot to mention why HP is important for enemies (bosses specifically): If they have enough hp, you can use them as EXP piñatas for shenanigans aplenty
Me when the experience is unethical, for real for real
Chain attacks scale on hp wich can result in weird moments were they are more effective against high hp berserkers then low hp sages
Chain attacks are funny like that, yeah
@@mihaimercenarul7467 jezus you did this on three seperate videos you are pathetic
the lowest amount of hp a character needs is one
Technically no, because in Radiant Dawn, you'll survive if set to 0 HP beforehand so long as you simply never take any damage! But actually yes lmao
It's been pretty interesting how many of the FE games handled HP. The first FE games and Echoes having 52 max HP for the playable units, some games like the GBA ones having 60 as the HP cap, others like FE5, FE10 and FE13 80 HP, and others like Fates and Engage, uh, varying by the class, some not even having at least 52 max hp, and others (mostly in Engage) having even more than 80 HP.
Nevertheless, having a character with a lot of HP can help contribute to a unit actually surviving hits and being quite bulky by themselves, while the ones that don't end up very fragile.
As for the HP growths, it also mostly varies between games. In the first FE game there were some units that had very poor HP growth, like a certain fighter that had like 10% HP growth IIRC lol, something that was mitigated in the DS FE remakes, while in the GBA FE games, the lowest HP growth a playable unit could have was 40%, meaning while they wouldn't gain a lot of HP like the others that had 80% and up growth, they could at least gain a bit of HP just so they wouldn't get stuck with less than 25 HP, which doesn't seem bad since HP is the stat that one unit can have with a lot of points, unlike all other stats (FE1, FE3 and FE5 with most stats caping at 20 lol).
Yeah, the concept of HP caps has definitely been interesting. I do think that the different amounts by class make sense. Or rather, given that by endgame, enemies end up often getting to their class caps in key offensive and bulk stats, it's also a way of limiting how chunky they can be? So I appreciate that
And for sure, HP growths are funny. I believe the 10% HP growth is thought to have been a typo? Because normally I would think of the number of units across the series who can get +2 HP levels. Something that I do think could be interesting in a Jagen-type unit especially would be if they had strongly negative HP growth, or if they took permanent damage per turn that could be fatal when fielded on a map
Imagine a 20 HP cap in addition to the 20 cap on everything else... it could end up being a pretty interesting small numbers game, even moreso than FE normally is in terms of numbers
The highest the HP, the more times you can use a basic heal staff, the more staff rank earned.
TRUE! And as we all know, getting Staff Rank is true value
fir embol
When Water Symbol and Ice Insignia, for real for real
@@akirasou water emblem is fates
@@alpha_c. ....you're so right, dang
I don't think chain attacks on Engage are good. There is only one counter to them with is more or less the same issue with berserk/restore. And giving that skill to a dodgetank will reduce the avoid becoming more of a tradeoff.
The same goes for physical tanks as we have def 5, HP stat, and flat damage reduction from Eirika.
Then chain attack spam on your units should not be a thing.
The whole *point* of the mechanic is to mitigate your ability to juggernaut. You never face enough enemies at once for this to become a problem before obtaining the Corrin emblem, which gives you the crowd control you need to deal with enemy swarms. If you're dying to enemy chain attacks, the solution is to just... *not* leave your unit alone against a bunch of enemy heroes. Not everything needs a direct counter.
It might have been a problem if chain attacks were only useful in enemy hands, but they're immensely helpful for the player, too, letting you take down enemies in fewer actions than you would have otherwise needed, with proper positioning. Making Backup a unit type is one of the best things Engage did; it gives you a legitimate reason to use foot units, rather than just cramming mounts on your team. It's an incredibly well-designed mechanic.
@@caliburnleaf9323
I do not agree. A broken tool on both hands does not balance things out. It is true back up stacking on enemies doesn't become a problem on most maps. The Fallen Lumera Chapter is the main problem. It's not a solution to use Corrin skill if in exchange you're going to get hit by more regular attacks due to losing 15 avoid, it might still be better but that's probably I won't bother do. And it is by getting surrounded blocking enemy's path. Staying out of their range is not an option.
I am not against of back up mechanic. It's more that it would have still been useful if: only one back up was allowed for combat, 2/brave 1 for hero's skill, and if back ups alone couldn't kill like precombat damage from FEH.
With those restrictions we could cut in half the back up damage from 4 enemies, still around 30% your HP which is crazy, and we could get 20% or 30% with 4 units against 1 enemy, that's without hero. That would also make hero's skill more important.
And as for Lucina's skill, it would still be useful to have more than one for reliability. In fact, this could give us an scenario where getting the basic version on 2 units might be better than the plus version on one 1 unit. And kinda worthless to have the plus version on both/all the units leaving them more SP for other skills.
Chain attacks are hard countered by positioning. Using 2 bodies instead of one can significantly reduce the threat potential. Something I learned recently too, if an enemy unit does 0 they will still attack to start a chain allowing you to get free damage/KOs on them
@@caliburnleaf9323 if the juggernaut is getting chipped to death by chains, then the answer is to juggernaut further, to the point it kills any back-up unit on retaliation. This is why Supermages are the best strat to beat any challenge in the game.
They don't work on enemy phase. That's enough to make it obvious they're trash.