Man, if my opponent turned up with all different legions for the special rules - I would of course graciously play through the game, learn from it - then never play that person again 😅
agreed. In our play group we are keeping things casual and limiting things that could be a problem as a gentleman's agreement too, for example no more than 4 stands of missiles per detachment and not taking single knights to max formation count. Playing Dark angels I insist on bringing plasma stands even if they are strictly worse. Cultivate your opponents and you maximize the fun in any game
I think it's probably okay having two legions in your army, 3 at a push if you have a good theme or lore reason like Istvaan etc, but there is definitely unpleasant room to 'soup' for advantage in game. I think it comes down to playing in the spirit of the setting rather than just to win
@@commissarmartin of course - there’s one player we have doing an army which is the defence of terra so all the loyalist legions there, but there’s a world of difference between good theming and min maxing for rules. Whatever floats peoples boats at the end of the day, I’d be less inclined to frown at it in a tournament than in a friendly game
What I've found works nicely is changing the force allowance, 50% must be core detachments, different legions can be used for each 25% of points used, up to 50% can be Knights, up to 30% as titans. Looks cooler, knights die like tanks anyway and feels more Epic and cohesive.
Legion specific units could be a really good way to balance unit traits. If you take a whole formation of x legions you can take this specific unit. They wouldn’t even need new models for it just a different datasheet
My most useful comment is I have a terrible hangover and you’ve seen me through the all important hour when the anadin extra kicks in. Also Solar Auxilia rule.
I think the unit sizes and some of the equipment restrictions are a result of GW prioritising sprues over rules. They don't like giving you options that can't be built from the kit, so bike unit sizes are dictated by the number you get. Whether you can equip on tank or every APC in a squadron with a multimelta depends upon how many multimeltas the sprue contains. It's very annoying.
I don't understand the stocking plan GW has. There are times if you switch region to UK There is stuff. But none in the US. It is still a desert out here.
the 30% for different legions make sense. As you are a TO, set that home rule to your tournaments and hope for GW to enforce it in a future rules expansion
Personally dont think 30% would work My army is being built around imperium secundus so i have elements from lost of different legions, mainly DA, UM and BA. Personally i think thats the way people are supposed to build their armies, around a specific battle or campaign not an individual legion. That being said it definitely does need tweaking, maybe 50% of slots in a formation have to be filled before you can take another legion?
I’m sure I’m not the first to suggest it but I feel like legion buffs should be decided by formation not detatchment. You’d never see a random squad of space wolves in a dark angels army, but you could see two full formations maybe working together. Plus it jist limits minimaxing
I think the games core issues are as follows: army construction isn't limited at all and as you discussed unlimited legions is a bit absurd and the incentives will be poor/abusive, infantry are too strong in general for their point cost, and their point costs often being quite low are a bit demoralizing on the painting side. First fire should be the primary way to get overwatch, being able to do it on advance makes the game a clusterfuck of reactions. Units pay too much for firepower or resilience but combat prowess and wound count is very wonky. (Think 1 baneblade with 2 wounds and an armour save that won't ever matter in combat vs 8 sentinels). Even firepower is not accounted for properly as the units with options tend to always have auto takes or objectively better weapon loadouts, and this problem goes right up to all the knights and titans. Lastly because its alternating activation and nothing limits activations/detachments or forces them into reserve, the game chokes on itself the higher the point levels you try and play it in many ways the same way titanicus does. Lastly the lack of limits favor gw and people printing more than benefit the health of what should be a combined arms war game, by force if necessary because you really can legally run single model armies currently, and that's just unfortunate. Last point tying back to infantry being too good, none of the terrain rules slow them down, they can charge farther than they can shoot, they can run 15 inches for some reason regardless of context, like it can be out of a transport that itself just moved on march order, sm2 used to limit those kind of things in terms of transports. The vehicle combat and arvus stuff is just sorta wtf. Game needs a faq for both books before we get book 3 imo, otherwise its just going to seem like necromunda.
Completely agree - LI lost momentum, I was buzzing and although I have bought everything...I have loads of piles of shame. In addition, with it being at same time more or less as old world, I feel like I have divided attention and in the end did little of either. Weirdly, LI's biggest bonus for me was it has me totally hooked on AT18. I love that game and its easily one of the best that GW has done. I hope they keep it going and perhaps with LI sharing models, it will still have a life.
I think the 'units not behaving how you'd expect' and some of the core imbalance is the key issue in legions so far. It didn't feel great (or fluffy) in my most recent game to have a unit of terminators and their Praetor charge out of their land raiders... Only to lose almost half their number to the bolters on a unit of rhinos, and then another two stands to the same rhinos in close combat
Sounds like bad luck over anything else. Also bad target priority. How big was your unit? How big was the rhino unit? Losing combst when you have CAF 5 on the charge vs Rhino is insanely uncommon.
Regarding Legion Soup. Would a 30% minimum force size to apply the legion special rule be sensible? For example in a 3000pt game you require 900pts of emperors children to use their special rule. This prevents just taking a minimum sized detachment to gain an army wide benefit. You could also take e.g. 1200pts of sons of horus, 1200pts of deathguard and 600points of titans/auxilla.
I think for marines there is rationale for allowing multiples in a normal force. However it’s a question of how many is too many. I’m toying with two legion rules, and any more have to be from the ally pot currently.
I've played a fair amount of LI now, but our points values have been low, so it's not been hard to get most of the troops I want out of a starter box, an infantry box, a support box, a fast attack box, a rhino box, a kratos box, and a pair of drop-pod boxes. But then I also have old epic stuff to use alongside it, and I think that's true of all of our players. Certainly my unit choices have been affected by what was available most of the time. What really gets me is the lack of planes. Without having already played Aeronautica, or turning to 3rd party planes, you are just out of luck.
I still reckon we are two to three books (with all their respective releases) away from LI being a ‘complete’ game. In the meantime I’m happy to be collecting, building and painting. Preparing for Horus Heresy Heaven…
Hi! I just wanted to point out that the AT starting box is available right now, at least in Europe. It has been for at least a month, I don´t know if due to lack of demand or them printing more (hopefully!).
I feel like the way to balance it would be to make each legion have 2 abilities and to gain the second ability is you need to have 70% of your marine points. Obviously would need to scale back some of the abilities or make that their second ability
The legions do need some tweaks, but its opened up to so very “fluffy” armies My personal army is currently being built around imperium secundus (Dark Angels, Ultra marines and blood angels)
Still fighting the good fight, I do wonder If I should ignore objectives and legion rules when getting into the game, seeing what people are happy to house rule.
This was good listening. Would you consider circling back and doing a similar discussion of the start-set units and also the Support boxes for Legions?
Really love the custom missions you were talking about. My local area hasnt started playing LI but I am building up a couple forces so people can try it out. Any suggestion on how to get more people involved? Just joined your discord!
Main thing I suggest is get down your local club and be seen to be playing. If people see it out there they are more likely to get involved. Also a local WhatsApp helps
Salamanders is Dragon/Fire Word bearers is Ghost/Dark White Scars is Flying Space Wolves is Ice/Fighting Ultramarines is Normal Emperors Children is Fairy Thousand Sons is Psychic Raven Guard is Ghost/Flying Iron Hands is Steel/Electric Iron Warriors is Steel/Dark World Eaters is Fighting Sons of Horus is Dark/Fighting Deathguard is Poison/Grass Alpha Legion is Ghost/Water Blood Angels is Flying/Fighting Dark Angels is Grass Imperial Fists is Normal Night Lords Dark/Electric
Hmm...lot's of complaining about things everyone would expect anyway when going to a tournament. Games are made by the players, not by the rules. Rules are are skeleton which has to be fleshed out by either imagination or houserules are simply frame condition setup by tournament organizers. This is not unusual and unheard of. So Each game plays best at the level it is been developed for. Not necessarily for tournament play which ads the one most important constraint : Time pressure. So you play small games with maxed aout armies to achieve the best result with the timeframe give. Since every tournament player does this , it is no wonder that these armies become more or less similar. I am not playing tournaments but try to recerate battles of the HH period. Ideally with pre-determined army-lists ar certain limitations of specific troop types.. There are so many options with games like LI, Warmaster, HC and many other Epic scale mass battles. Just take the time for playing a good game rather than trying to rush through three games in a row within a day.
I agree in principal but there is a line where what is required becomes over the top. Per a post I put previously here, I think two sets of legion rules should absolutely be something that’s par for the course, but maybe any more than that becomes something that comes out an ally pool instead. That way you can realistically have 3 legion rules easily - and I think that’s reasonable - it’s when you get to the point people are having more than three I feel it goes beyond “I need that because…” and goes into the realms of “I’m taking this because I can”
Sorry I should of been clearer. I completely agree with your ascertains. The game encourages it and you are placed at a disadvantage if you don’t run it. I prefer not to myself and would raise an eyebrow if ‘that guy’ arrives packing a minimum size Deathguard formation, Emperors Children and a good chunk of Alpha Legion. It screams gamey to me personally. I also agree that the ally cap should apply to additional Legion choices but just meant that at the moment, Astartes require these extras to compete with Solar Auxilia.
Man, if my opponent turned up with all different legions for the special rules - I would of course graciously play through the game, learn from it - then never play that person again 😅
agreed. In our play group we are keeping things casual and limiting things that could be a problem as a gentleman's agreement too, for example no more than 4 stands of missiles per detachment and not taking single knights to max formation count. Playing Dark angels I insist on bringing plasma stands even if they are strictly worse. Cultivate your opponents and you maximize the fun in any game
I think it's probably okay having two legions in your army, 3 at a push if you have a good theme or lore reason like Istvaan etc, but there is definitely unpleasant room to 'soup' for advantage in game. I think it comes down to playing in the spirit of the setting rather than just to win
@@commissarmartin of course - there’s one player we have doing an army which is the defence of terra so all the loyalist legions there, but there’s a world of difference between good theming and min maxing for rules. Whatever floats peoples boats at the end of the day, I’d be less inclined to frown at it in a tournament than in a friendly game
What I've found works nicely is changing the force allowance, 50% must be core detachments, different legions can be used for each 25% of points used, up to 50% can be Knights, up to 30% as titans. Looks cooler, knights die like tanks anyway and feels more Epic and cohesive.
Legion specific units could be a really good way to balance unit traits. If you take a whole formation of x legions you can take this specific unit. They wouldn’t even need new models for it just a different datasheet
My most useful comment is I have a terrible hangover and you’ve seen me through the all important hour when the anadin extra kicks in.
Also Solar Auxilia rule.
😂
Great video for Saturday morning with my coffee. Good job fellas.
I think the unit sizes and some of the equipment restrictions are a result of GW prioritising sprues over rules. They don't like giving you options that can't be built from the kit, so bike unit sizes are dictated by the number you get. Whether you can equip on tank or every APC in a squadron with a multimelta depends upon how many multimeltas the sprue contains. It's very annoying.
In the USA stock issues are the main issue. People can’t get most things, and the delay for restock kills interest in the game when they do come in.
I don't understand the stocking plan GW has. There are times if you switch region to UK There is stuff. But none in the US. It is still a desert out here.
the 30% for different legions make sense. As you are a TO, set that home rule to your tournaments and hope for GW to enforce it in a future rules expansion
Personally dont think 30% would work
My army is being built around imperium secundus so i have elements from lost of different legions, mainly DA, UM and BA.
Personally i think thats the way people are supposed to build their armies, around a specific battle or campaign not an individual legion.
That being said it definitely does need tweaking, maybe 50% of slots in a formation have to be filled before you can take another legion?
@@TeAXIIIT13 My forces are all Fists, but I'm doing it because I like the fisting, not because it's the best idea
I’m sure I’m not the first to suggest it but I feel like legion buffs should be decided by formation not detatchment. You’d never see a random squad of space wolves in a dark angels army, but you could see two full formations maybe working together. Plus it jist limits minimaxing
Obviously it will require retooling the legion traits but that should probably happen anyways
I think the games core issues are as follows: army construction isn't limited at all and as you discussed unlimited legions is a bit absurd and the incentives will be poor/abusive, infantry are too strong in general for their point cost, and their point costs often being quite low are a bit demoralizing on the painting side. First fire should be the primary way to get overwatch, being able to do it on advance makes the game a clusterfuck of reactions. Units pay too much for firepower or resilience but combat prowess and wound count is very wonky. (Think 1 baneblade with 2 wounds and an armour save that won't ever matter in combat vs 8 sentinels). Even firepower is not accounted for properly as the units with options tend to always have auto takes or objectively better weapon loadouts, and this problem goes right up to all the knights and titans. Lastly because its alternating activation and nothing limits activations/detachments or forces them into reserve, the game chokes on itself the higher the point levels you try and play it in many ways the same way titanicus does. Lastly the lack of limits favor gw and people printing more than benefit the health of what should be a combined arms war game, by force if necessary because you really can legally run single model armies currently, and that's just unfortunate. Last point tying back to infantry being too good, none of the terrain rules slow them down, they can charge farther than they can shoot, they can run 15 inches for some reason regardless of context, like it can be out of a transport that itself just moved on march order, sm2 used to limit those kind of things in terms of transports. The vehicle combat and arvus stuff is just sorta wtf. Game needs a faq for both books before we get book 3 imo, otherwise its just going to seem like necromunda.
Good response thanks for taking the time to share with us!
Completely agree - LI lost momentum, I was buzzing and although I have bought everything...I have loads of piles of shame. In addition, with it being at same time more or less as old world, I feel like I have divided attention and in the end did little of either. Weirdly, LI's biggest bonus for me was it has me totally hooked on AT18. I love that game and its easily one of the best that GW has done. I hope they keep it going and perhaps with LI sharing models, it will still have a life.
I very much hope that you aren’t the only one to walk into the loving titanicus embrace!
@@Maximalfire Entire gaming group loves it, so we are sitting at 6 legios so far all over 1800+ each. Still want more....
Great to see you back
Love AT and still getting in to (building my) LI 😎
🙏
I think the 'units not behaving how you'd expect' and some of the core imbalance is the key issue in legions so far. It didn't feel great (or fluffy) in my most recent game to have a unit of terminators and their Praetor charge out of their land raiders... Only to lose almost half their number to the bolters on a unit of rhinos, and then another two stands to the same rhinos in close combat
Sounds like bad luck over anything else. Also bad target priority.
How big was your unit? How big was the rhino unit? Losing combst when you have CAF 5 on the charge vs Rhino is insanely uncommon.
Regarding Legion Soup. Would a 30% minimum force size to apply the legion special rule be sensible? For example in a 3000pt game you require 900pts of emperors children to use their special rule. This prevents just taking a minimum sized detachment to gain an army wide benefit. You could also take e.g. 1200pts of sons of horus, 1200pts of deathguard and 600points of titans/auxilla.
I think for marines there is rationale for allowing multiples in a normal force. However it’s a question of how many is too many. I’m toying with two legion rules, and any more have to be from the ally pot currently.
Epic Armageddon is THE ruleset to play epic, also 6x4 :P
Space Marine >>>>> Armageddon
@@batteredwarrior bring me my artillery barrages, blast markers, crossfire, etc
I've played a fair amount of LI now, but our points values have been low, so it's not been hard to get most of the troops I want out of a starter box, an infantry box, a support box, a fast attack box, a rhino box, a kratos box, and a pair of drop-pod boxes. But then I also have old epic stuff to use alongside it, and I think that's true of all of our players. Certainly my unit choices have been affected by what was available most of the time. What really gets me is the lack of planes. Without having already played Aeronautica, or turning to 3rd party planes, you are just out of luck.
Yeah they need fire raptors and storm eagles back in particular…
I still reckon we are two to three books (with all their respective releases) away from LI being a ‘complete’ game.
In the meantime I’m happy to be collecting, building and painting. Preparing for Horus Heresy Heaven…
Yeah I am inclined to agree which is why I’m reserving judgement to some extent. AT wasn’t complete at the same point in its life cycle
Hi! I just wanted to point out that the AT starting box is available right now, at least in Europe. It has been for at least a month, I don´t know if due to lack of demand or them printing more (hopefully!).
Great to hear!
Thousand sons have to be psychic/ghost type lol
😂
I feel like the way to balance it would be to make each legion have 2 abilities and to gain the second ability is you need to have 70% of your marine points. Obviously would need to scale back some of the abilities or make that their second ability
The legions do need some tweaks, but its opened up to so very “fluffy” armies
My personal army is currently being built around imperium secundus
(Dark Angels, Ultra marines and blood angels)
Though as an Solar Auxilia I dont have those fancy legion special rules, I have the superior chain of command rule. 🤪
Oh that gem… 😂
Still fighting the good fight, I do wonder If I should ignore objectives and legion rules when getting into the game, seeing what people are happy to house rule.
Yesl
This was good listening. Would you consider circling back and doing a similar discussion of the start-set units and also the Support boxes for Legions?
Of course! It’s on our plans for future episodes
Really love the custom missions you were talking about. My local area hasnt started playing LI but I am building up a couple forces so people can try it out. Any suggestion on how to get more people involved? Just joined your discord!
Main thing I suggest is get down your local club and be seen to be playing. If people see it out there they are more likely to get involved. Also a local WhatsApp helps
Space Marine was my favorite. Epic 40K didn’t grab me. Red Butchers, Angron and Kharn would be rad.
Salamanders is Dragon/Fire
Word bearers is Ghost/Dark
White Scars is Flying
Space Wolves is Ice/Fighting
Ultramarines is Normal
Emperors Children is Fairy
Thousand Sons is Psychic
Raven Guard is Ghost/Flying
Iron Hands is Steel/Electric
Iron Warriors is Steel/Dark
World Eaters is Fighting
Sons of Horus is Dark/Fighting
Deathguard is Poison/Grass
Alpha Legion is Ghost/Water
Blood Angels is Flying/Fighting
Dark Angels is Grass
Imperial Fists is Normal
Night Lords Dark/Electric
😂 go on then, how long did you spend thinking about this?
Hmm...lot's of complaining about things everyone would expect anyway when going to a tournament. Games are made by the players, not by the rules. Rules are are skeleton which has to be fleshed out by either imagination or houserules are simply frame condition setup by tournament organizers. This is not unusual and unheard of. So Each game plays best at the level it is been developed for. Not necessarily for tournament play which ads the one most important constraint : Time pressure. So you play small games with maxed aout armies to achieve the best result with the timeframe give. Since every tournament player does this , it is no wonder that these armies become more or less similar. I am not playing tournaments but try to recerate battles of the HH period. Ideally with pre-determined army-lists ar certain limitations of specific troop types.. There are so many options with games like LI, Warmaster, HC and many other Epic scale mass battles. Just take the time for playing a good game rather than trying to rush through three games in a row within a day.
Regarding soup for astartes, they desperately need it. They are hugely outmatched in virtually every department by SA.
I agree in principal but there is a line where what is required becomes over the top. Per a post I put previously here, I think two sets of legion rules should absolutely be something that’s par for the course, but maybe any more than that becomes something that comes out an ally pool instead. That way you can realistically have 3 legion rules easily - and I think that’s reasonable - it’s when you get to the point people are having more than three I feel it goes beyond “I need that because…” and goes into the realms of “I’m taking this because I can”
Sorry I should of been clearer. I completely agree with your ascertains. The game encourages it and you are placed at a disadvantage if you don’t run it. I prefer not to myself and would raise an eyebrow if ‘that guy’ arrives packing a minimum size Deathguard formation, Emperors Children and a good chunk of Alpha Legion. It screams gamey to me personally.
I also agree that the ally cap should apply to additional Legion choices but just meant that at the moment, Astartes require these extras to compete with Solar Auxilia.