As a kid who lived through Turtlemania, I don't remember being bothered by Zach. Young me probably would of just been like "Ah man, I want to hang with the turtles."
Zack was Ninja Turtles answer to the success of Bart Simpson at the time. He was a CBS idea. CBS also aired The Little Mermaid TV series also had the show put in Urchin for the exact same reason. Cashing in the success of Bart Simpson at the time.
Zach annoyed me at first, but I think he grew over time. He did save the day a couple of times, so he definitely was helpful. The only thing that really bugs me is you would think splinter would eventually realize that he can't keep him from getting in danger so he may as well hold teach him the basics of self defense and ninjitsu so he'd be more helpful and less of a liability
4:16 It's so weird how the mirage turtles were used for a lot of 87 cartoon marketing, I'm sure kids at the time looked at this and thought, "why do we have four Raphels on this sign up sheet, where are Leonardo, Donatello, and Michelangelo?"
@@CCrawford522 oh, so, you were one of the few kids who knew about the mirage comics back then, okay, I’m just curious to what the kids that didn’t thought of seeing that.
I always thought this was a weird addition to the toon. But was always curious why he didn’t at least get a figure on. Guess he represented us kid fans, the Zack Morris theory interesting too. He also reminds me of Culkin from Home Alone fame too
Culkin was probably an inspiration (especially in the episode where Zach wreaks havoc at the Technodrome). My guess on why he never got a figure is because Playmates thinks of kid characters as less aspirational for kids. But that didn't stop them from creating Turtle tots and Cody.
It was a good episode, but the fifth turtle character wasn't strong enough to be around any longer than one episode or so. He wasn't annoying, just nothing special.
Great video 📼 I would like to see y'all do a video on all the different ad on human allies of the Turtles, namely: Zach, Keno, Carter, Cody Jones, etc.
All in one? I covered all of those already (although one of those will have an updated video). I am trying to avoid all-in-one videos as there will always be a new version of a character to add.
He’s the most obscure character I’ve never seen in a classic show, and never seen on a reboot. I understand the definition of being “annoying” or as an “extra.” But seriously, times have changed, characters like him could get a second chance in a future reboot, but by giving him more meaning and depth about his existence. The creators can take an example of Perrito from Puss in Boots: The Last Wish and some of its philosophical meanings of life and relationships. An obscure character could give the show a new meaning, and not necessarily can alter the course of the show. A nostalgic surprise for those who had loved the show, and for those who have never heard of him. Seriously, I’m surprised because I ‘ve never heard of this character before, this is the first time I see someone like him… Historical…
Zach would be understandably annoying in his first episode, but he did come through in the end. Unfortunately, he would lose my respect in "Zach and the Alien Invaders" with his crying wolf. At least Wingnut and Screwloose were cool as villains. Zach didn't show up as much as the other allies at least.
Another problem was that every cartoon seemed to have one or more similar network-mandated kid character. The Real Ghostbusters had one kid character in one episode that wasn't too bad, but later they added The Junior Ghostbusters, who all the writers hated. I did not like Zach.
In my case, in general, I've never been a fan of child characters in old shows. Sometimes I found them really heavy. For example, I still hate guys like: Huey Dewey and Louie from the old Ducktales. Zach, as you say, had many ups and downs but also proved to be useful. But he personally still doesn't drive me crazy. PS: I don't know if you talked about it. But there would be a video about the terrorist group HAVOK that appeared in three episodes of the "Red Sky" season. Pps: there would also be a video on Don Turtelli. He has become an iconic character on Deviantart for many. 🤣
HAVOK is on the list. Don Turtelli may attract people looking for tickles and feet and may completely confuse the UA-cam algorithm for my channel... so I am not sure.
I would agree that how a given fan feels about Zach probably has a lot to do with the age they were when the show came out. I was little and loved the idea of a kid getting to hang with the turtles; as you say, he was "living my dream." And being small, to me Zach was a cool independent big kid to look up to lol. There seems to be a general divide in the fandom between people who lean towards liking silly and light hearted turtles and those who lean towards dark and gritty turtles. I don't have data for this, but I suspect the divide in preference probably correlates to age, and specifically alternating half-generations (meaning about 10years, the age gap roughly between that of a small child and a teenage babysitter). I think it's the "nostalgia cycle." We tend to like what we were exposed to first when we were kids, and the kids who later grow up to work as creators on the show tend to create a tone similar to what they're nostalgic for. Thus, you get cycles of tones in the show and fandom that correlate to age. Just from personal observation, it seems to me that often -- - The Gen X/older millennials that were the target demographic old enough to read the original dark and gritty Mirage comics tend to like dark and gritty turtles --The mid-millenials who were tiny and the target demographic of the 87 cartoon tend to like lighter and sillier turtles (that's me), - The late millennials/early Gen Z'ers who had their first primary exposure to Turtles with the Fox /4kids series tend to like it darker (as it was created by the first crop of creators who had grown up on the Mirage comics) - The Zoomers who grew up on the 2k12/Nick I series are often more open to a lighter vibe (although that show got plenty dark too, it had a big range). - Kids who grew up on Rise will be interesting to watch in the future; I suspect that since the show gets quite silly, they will lean light hearted in preference (although that show also gets quite dark, especially in the movie). The tone seems to get more mixed between light and dark with each version; I suspect that this is because when the first generation of Mirage kids joined the TMNT show's creative team, there were still some classic 87 series staff involved as well, creating a slight blend of light and dark in the 2003/Fox series. Then with the 2k12/Nick-i series, there were mostly leftover staff from the Fox turtles in charge joined by the first crop of 87 cartoon kids, and so we ended up with a generally dark tone, but with lots of silliness decorating that structure. So it became a quite blended tone. THEN in Rise, you can tell that the kids with nostalgia for 87 are really in charge, along with the first crop of older Zoomers. It gets SO silly, but also those two generations have by that point experienced a lot of collective trauma that has pushed them first into a cocoon of depression and postmodernism, then hatching out into a metamodern philosophy and style of writing. So you get an overall very silly tone but with heartfelt writing that deals with heavy and serious issues in a very on-the-nose, post-ironic, neo-sincerity sort of way. As in writing feelings, morals, and character development in a way that is so blatant and on the nose that it is often awkward and cheesy, but which very intentionally lets that be part of the humor while being COMPLETELY sincere. Thus we see a progression in tone that matches the tenor of young adult society at the time of the creation of each series -- Fox was jaded and sardonic, 2k12/Nicki was ironic/postmodern, and Rise was post-ironic/ metamodern. So yeah! I agree with you that fan preferences for show tone and characters do have a lot to do with age-of-first-encounter with the turtles. I also think that as the series has gone on and as fans age into creators there has been a feedback loop of creator nostalgia to new fan first-exposure, meaning that fans about 1 generation apart tend to have similar tastes, while fans .5 generations apart tend to have different tastes. Last, the tone of a show of a given era also tends to reflect the cultural zeitgeist of the time and the experiences of the adults that created it (such as the transition adult creators of the first show experienced from Cold War and late 80's economic crisis to post-Soviet bubbly optimism to the jaded late 90's angst that marked the 10-year run of that cartoon, the post-9/11 uncertainty of the 2003/Fox era, the economic anxiety and gloom about the future in the post 2008 housing crisis and mainstreaming of climate anxiety during the 2k12 Nicki era, and in the Rise era the "we're absolutely terrified but fuck it we're going to live unapologetically" vibe and social progressivism that was emerging in defiance of that time's rapidly accelerating global fascist resurgence (particularly MAGA) post 2016. So yeah. Childhood fan experience of the show compounds with grown-up fans bringing in their childhood experience of the show to influence the new show compounds with global events and societal zeitgeist. Art is fascinating! And especially pop culture, to me. That's where you can really see where a society's heads are at during a given time. It says so much about history and who we are more broadly.
I grew up during Turtlemania, so my first exposure to the turtles was the cartoon. But there was something in those action figures that didn't match the cartoon, and could only be satisfied with the Mirage comics. Which is probably what ended up validating my passion for them. I used to read the Archie comics when I was a kid too, and those were also darker than the cartoon. But obviously the 4Kids show surprised me for how loyal it was to the source material, and this was to be expected when you see how close to it Peter Laird was. Both the 2003 series and the 2007 stayed close to the material. I have talked to fans that met the Turtles through "Rise", and I am not sure if they care about things like "Last Ronin" (which seems to attract older fans). But I can tell you one thing that I discovered making this channel. Rise is the most rewatchable of all the shows, and I am under the impression that it will become a cult classic. Definitely niche within the ninja turtles community, but super entertaining. I think the "rise" generation is open to other adaptations, but only time will tell.
I first grew up with the 87 series and the Harvest Gold movies. I was a young teen when Next Mutation came out, I thought it was a like a continuation of the movies. I also thought at the time that it had a Joel Schumacher's Batman 🦇 vibe. I first learned about the Mirage comics in the late 90s - early 00s, a couple of years before the 4KIDS series aired. I liked all of them in their own ways at the time, some more than others. I think 🤔 the best balance of the tone for TMNT is the first 90s movie 🎥.
I like how in the CG series his introduction got recycled into the new character Timothy's introduction who later became mutagen man... his story never got a proper conclusion tho 🤔👁 👁 👄 -Adam
Well I was about that I think he was unnecessary and that he is a bit annoying at times but as you said he isn’t in every episodes unlike those other characters in other shows and especially he looks like Mighty Max as that was a cartoon that Rob Paulson voiced in with Tim Curry as the villain Skullmaster. Can we also talk about Don Turtelli as he looks different in his first appearance which I think he supposed to look like Marlon Brando.
Don Turtelli is the first TMNT Mafia like villain character that I remember seeing in the franchise. I would love to see a video talk about the different Mob characters that face off against the Turtles 😊
Let's just agree on one thing, if they're gonna go through the trouble of having an honorary turtles, not making someone an honorary turte "because she's girl" is just sexist! I mean Caitlin wasn't the one who bullied zach for admiring the turtles, isn't that right Walt! Now a tad related, but whatever your thoughts on Venus Demilo maybe, Peter Laird claiming "A female turtle is creativley bankrupt" was out of line! It's also hypocritical for Laird to say that, seeing how he's the same guy that established April O'Neil as a drawing come to life, he thinks that qualies as "creativley rich," I mean just come on, what was he thinking?! Better, question, Was he thinking?!
April being a drawing come to life has its origins in his "Kirby" story, very early in the Turtles' history. It was in the confines of what was possible in the universe, but it is a bit far fetched. What Laird didn't want was a turtle whose only distinctive attribute was to be a girl, as he was also against having more male turtles (unless there was something special about them, like Slash or Tokka). There is also a stigma that has its origins in fan fiction. Usually unknown relatives of established characters would come in and take over the story. Venus being a missing "non related sister", kind of falls into 1990s fan fiction territory. I am ok with Venus, Jennika, and Lita (as long as their personalities are easy to recognize). But I would try to keep them as special characters that appear when a story needs them. The same doesn't apply to Moja and Yi, because those are the main turtles in their universe, so as long as they don't add more missing siblings they should be fine.
@@TheTurtleNexus yes, I know about the drawing crystal and it’s ties to Jack Kirby, but that doesn’t make April created by it acceptable! The 2003 show brought the crystal thing in and didn’t establish that in Aprils origin! Also, I know what laird meant!
Thanks for watching!
Can you think of a character you hated as a kid that deserves a second chance?
Now that's more like it!
That's way past cool!
I do not know
He also made a cameo in shredder revenge game
As a kid who lived through Turtlemania, I don't remember being bothered by Zach.
Young me probably would of just been like "Ah man, I want to hang with the turtles."
Same 😅
Zack was Ninja Turtles answer to the success of Bart Simpson at the time. He was a CBS idea. CBS also aired The Little Mermaid TV series also had the show put in Urchin for the exact same reason. Cashing in the success of Bart Simpson at the time.
Yes
Zach annoyed me at first, but I think he grew over time. He did save the day a couple of times, so he definitely was helpful. The only thing that really bugs me is you would think splinter would eventually realize that he can't keep him from getting in danger so he may as well hold teach him the basics of self defense and ninjitsu so he'd be more helpful and less of a liability
I wonder if letting Zach use swords was a way for the creative team to troll the parents who wanted to tone down the violence.
4:16 It's so weird how the mirage turtles were used for a lot of 87 cartoon marketing, I'm sure kids at the time looked at this and thought, "why do we have four Raphels on this sign up sheet, where are Leonardo, Donatello, and Michelangelo?"
It was weird to me. I think I knew that this look was from the comics, but it was always strange. Same way with the NES game box.
@@CCrawford522 oh, so, you were one of the few kids who knew about the mirage comics back then, okay, I’m just curious to what the kids that didn’t thought of seeing that.
I always thought this was a weird addition to the toon. But was always curious why he didn’t at least get a figure on. Guess he represented us kid fans, the Zack Morris theory interesting too. He also reminds me of Culkin from Home Alone fame too
Culkin was probably an inspiration (especially in the episode where Zach wreaks havoc at the Technodrome). My guess on why he never got a figure is because Playmates thinks of kid characters as less aspirational for kids. But that didn't stop them from creating Turtle tots and Cody.
It was a good episode, but the fifth turtle character wasn't strong enough to be around any longer than one episode or so. He wasn't annoying, just nothing special.
Great video 📼
I would like to see y'all do a video on all the different ad on human allies of the Turtles, namely: Zach, Keno, Carter, Cody Jones, etc.
All in one? I covered all of those already (although one of those will have an updated video).
I am trying to avoid all-in-one videos as there will always be a new version of a character to add.
He’s the most obscure character I’ve never seen in a classic show, and never seen on a reboot. I understand the definition of being “annoying” or as an “extra.” But seriously, times have changed, characters like him could get a second chance in a future reboot, but by giving him more meaning and depth about his existence. The creators can take an example of Perrito from Puss in Boots: The Last Wish and some of its philosophical meanings of life and relationships. An obscure character could give the show a new meaning, and not necessarily can alter the course of the show. A nostalgic surprise for those who had loved the show, and for those who have never heard of him. Seriously, I’m surprised because I ‘ve never heard of this character before, this is the first time I see someone like him… Historical…
Great video! Again, worth the wait. You should do a video on Angel Bridge from the 2003 cartoon and IDW comics, she's an interesting character.
Can you talk about Irma Langenstein?
She is on my list, but not sure when.
I like Zach even if he was kind of annoying in his debut but I say everyone should give him a fair chance.
🎶Zach, Zach
He's a Turtle maniac!
Zach, Zach!
He's a Turtle maniac!🎶
Zach would be understandably annoying in his first episode, but he did come through in the end. Unfortunately, he would lose my respect in "Zach and the Alien Invaders" with his crying wolf. At least Wingnut and Screwloose were cool as villains. Zach didn't show up as much as the other allies at least.
Just bought the Naca Zach figure. It's so nostalgic.😊
Another problem was that every cartoon seemed to have one or more similar network-mandated kid character. The Real Ghostbusters had one kid character in one episode that wasn't too bad, but later they added The Junior Ghostbusters, who all the writers hated.
I did not like Zach.
In my case, in general, I've never been a fan of child characters in old shows. Sometimes I found them really heavy. For example, I still hate guys like: Huey Dewey and Louie from the old Ducktales.
Zach, as you say, had many ups and downs but also proved to be useful. But he personally still doesn't drive me crazy.
PS: I don't know if you talked about it. But there would be a video about the terrorist group HAVOK that appeared in three episodes of the "Red Sky" season.
Pps: there would also be a video on Don Turtelli. He has become an iconic character on Deviantart for many. 🤣
HAVOK is on the list. Don Turtelli may attract people looking for tickles and feet and may completely confuse the UA-cam algorithm for my channel... so I am not sure.
@@TheTurtleNexusPatience. We will never see a video about one of "Deviantart superstars". 😂
Glad there will be a video about HAVOK.
Thanks for the amazing video ❤
I would agree that how a given fan feels about Zach probably has a lot to do with the age they were when the show came out. I was little and loved the idea of a kid getting to hang with the turtles; as you say, he was "living my dream." And being small, to me Zach was a cool independent big kid to look up to lol.
There seems to be a general divide in the fandom between people who lean towards liking silly and light hearted turtles and those who lean towards dark and gritty turtles. I don't have data for this, but I suspect the divide in preference probably correlates to age, and specifically alternating half-generations (meaning about 10years, the age gap roughly between that of a small child and a teenage babysitter). I think it's the "nostalgia cycle." We tend to like what we were exposed to first when we were kids, and the kids who later grow up to work as creators on the show tend to create a tone similar to what they're nostalgic for. Thus, you get cycles of tones in the show and fandom that correlate to age. Just from personal observation, it seems to me that often --
- The Gen X/older millennials that were the target demographic old enough to read the original dark and gritty Mirage comics tend to like dark and gritty turtles
--The mid-millenials who were tiny and the target demographic of the 87 cartoon tend to like lighter and sillier turtles (that's me),
- The late millennials/early Gen Z'ers who had their first primary exposure to Turtles with the Fox /4kids series tend to like it darker (as it was created by the first crop of creators who had grown up on the Mirage comics)
- The Zoomers who grew up on the 2k12/Nick I series are often more open to a lighter vibe (although that show got plenty dark too, it had a big range).
- Kids who grew up on Rise will be interesting to watch in the future; I suspect that since the show gets quite silly, they will lean light hearted in preference (although that show also gets quite dark, especially in the movie).
The tone seems to get more mixed between light and dark with each version; I suspect that this is because when the first generation of Mirage kids joined the TMNT show's creative team, there were still some classic 87 series staff involved as well, creating a slight blend of light and dark in the 2003/Fox series. Then with the 2k12/Nick-i series, there were mostly leftover staff from the Fox turtles in charge joined by the first crop of 87 cartoon kids, and so we ended up with a generally dark tone, but with lots of silliness decorating that structure. So it became a quite blended tone. THEN in Rise, you can tell that the kids with nostalgia for 87 are really in charge, along with the first crop of older Zoomers. It gets SO silly, but also those two generations have by that point experienced a lot of collective trauma that has pushed them first into a cocoon of depression and postmodernism, then hatching out into a metamodern philosophy and style of writing. So you get an overall very silly tone but with heartfelt writing that deals with heavy and serious issues in a very on-the-nose, post-ironic, neo-sincerity sort of way. As in writing feelings, morals, and character development in a way that is so blatant and on the nose that it is often awkward and cheesy, but which very intentionally lets that be part of the humor while being COMPLETELY sincere. Thus we see a progression in tone that matches the tenor of young adult society at the time of the creation of each series -- Fox was jaded and sardonic, 2k12/Nicki was ironic/postmodern, and Rise was post-ironic/ metamodern.
So yeah! I agree with you that fan preferences for show tone and characters do have a lot to do with age-of-first-encounter with the turtles. I also think that as the series has gone on and as fans age into creators there has been a feedback loop of creator nostalgia to new fan first-exposure, meaning that fans about 1 generation apart tend to have similar tastes, while fans .5 generations apart tend to have different tastes. Last, the tone of a show of a given era also tends to reflect the cultural zeitgeist of the time and the experiences of the adults that created it (such as the transition adult creators of the first show experienced from Cold War and late 80's economic crisis to post-Soviet bubbly optimism to the jaded late 90's angst that marked the 10-year run of that cartoon, the post-9/11 uncertainty of the 2003/Fox era, the economic anxiety and gloom about the future in the post 2008 housing crisis and mainstreaming of climate anxiety during the 2k12 Nicki era, and in the Rise era the "we're absolutely terrified but fuck it we're going to live unapologetically" vibe and social progressivism that was emerging in defiance of that time's rapidly accelerating global fascist resurgence (particularly MAGA) post 2016.
So yeah. Childhood fan experience of the show compounds with grown-up fans bringing in their childhood experience of the show to influence the new show compounds with global events and societal zeitgeist. Art is fascinating! And especially pop culture, to me. That's where you can really see where a society's heads are at during a given time. It says so much about history and who we are more broadly.
I grew up during Turtlemania, so my first exposure to the turtles was the cartoon. But there was something in those action figures that didn't match the cartoon, and could only be satisfied with the Mirage comics. Which is probably what ended up validating my passion for them.
I used to read the Archie comics when I was a kid too, and those were also darker than the cartoon.
But obviously the 4Kids show surprised me for how loyal it was to the source material, and this was to be expected when you see how close to it Peter Laird was. Both the 2003 series and the 2007 stayed close to the material.
I have talked to fans that met the Turtles through "Rise", and I am not sure if they care about things like "Last Ronin" (which seems to attract older fans). But I can tell you one thing that I discovered making this channel. Rise is the most rewatchable of all the shows, and I am under the impression that it will become a cult classic. Definitely niche within the ninja turtles community, but super entertaining.
I think the "rise" generation is open to other adaptations, but only time will tell.
I first grew up with the 87 series and the Harvest Gold movies. I was a young teen when Next Mutation came out, I thought it was a like a continuation of the movies. I also thought at the time that it had a Joel Schumacher's Batman 🦇 vibe. I first learned about the Mirage comics in the late 90s - early 00s, a couple of years before the 4KIDS series aired. I liked all of them in their own ways at the time, some more than others. I think 🤔 the best balance of the tone for TMNT is the first 90s movie 🎥.
@@jrr2480 The 1990 movie achieved a lot with all the demographics it had to please. To me it's still the best TMNT movie so far.
Yeah, I would say my thoughts on zach are the same as yours spencer.
I like how in the CG series his introduction got recycled into the new character Timothy's introduction who later became mutagen man... his story never got a proper conclusion tho 🤔👁 👁
👄
-Adam
My worst chacter of teenage mutant ninja turtles is Timothy pulverizer and mutant man
I got Andrew modeens the shredder graphic novel you should do a review on it
It's on my reading list. We'll see.
@@TheTurtleNexus I got my copy yesterday
I say both he cool and annoying
8:29 Why is Donetello wearing Mickey/Minnie Mouse ears?
He was an unwilling henchman for the Rat King.
@@TheTurtleNexus thanks
Oh sorry, in second view, that was just a costume shop.
@@TheTurtleNexus okay
Well I was about that I think he was unnecessary and that he is a bit annoying at times but as you said he isn’t in every episodes unlike those other characters in other shows and especially he looks like Mighty Max as that was a cartoon that Rob Paulson voiced in with Tim Curry as the villain Skullmaster.
Can we also talk about Don Turtelli as he looks different in his first appearance which I think he supposed to look like Marlon Brando.
I am on the fence with Don Turtelli. He attracts the wrong crowd :p
@@TheTurtleNexusso I guess that’s a no then?
@@srstriker6420 We'll see... I could do it like in a podcast format. But not this year.
Don Turtelli is the first TMNT Mafia like villain character that I remember seeing in the franchise. I would love to see a video talk about the different Mob characters that face off against the Turtles 😊
Hahahaha
Let's just agree on one thing, if they're gonna go through the trouble of having an honorary turtles, not making someone an honorary turte "because she's girl" is just sexist! I mean Caitlin wasn't the one who bullied zach for admiring the turtles, isn't that right Walt! Now a tad related, but whatever your thoughts on Venus Demilo maybe, Peter Laird claiming "A female turtle is creativley bankrupt" was out of line! It's also hypocritical for Laird to say that, seeing how he's the same guy that established April O'Neil as a drawing come to life, he thinks that qualies as "creativley rich," I mean just come on, what was he thinking?! Better, question, Was he thinking?!
April being a drawing come to life has its origins in his "Kirby" story, very early in the Turtles' history. It was in the confines of what was possible in the universe, but it is a bit far fetched.
What Laird didn't want was a turtle whose only distinctive attribute was to be a girl, as he was also against having more male turtles (unless there was something special about them, like Slash or Tokka).
There is also a stigma that has its origins in fan fiction. Usually unknown relatives of established characters would come in and take over the story. Venus being a missing "non related sister", kind of falls into 1990s fan fiction territory.
I am ok with Venus, Jennika, and Lita (as long as their personalities are easy to recognize). But I would try to keep them as special characters that appear when a story needs them.
The same doesn't apply to Moja and Yi, because those are the main turtles in their universe, so as long as they don't add more missing siblings they should be fine.
@@TheTurtleNexus yes, I know about the drawing crystal and it’s ties to Jack Kirby, but that doesn’t make April created by it acceptable! The 2003 show brought the crystal thing in and didn’t establish that in Aprils origin! Also, I know what laird meant!
I never liked Zach.
Human characters annoy me.