Sorry to hear about the trials. What a bummer. The saying goes something like, "teach your kids to love aviation and they will never have money for drugs". Thanks for the update.
You hit the nail on the head. It’s frustrating to own an airplane. Lots of red tape. Hard to find parts and equally hard to find good IAs. In the end it’s worth it. Love your plane, keep up the good work. Hope you can make it out here to Idaho and get to experience what your plane can do.
As an IA I can relate, its usually the first annual that the new owner finds out why it was such a great deal! With C-150's going in the 35-40k range now you will have a pretty good investment when its done. Engine parts/ accs.. etc. are all going for a premium with the high demand, I suspect Cirrus/ Piper / Cessna have the first dibs from Continental/ Lycoming not to mention the experimental world. Students are also flying any pos they can get their hands on.
I can totally relate Mark. Bought a Citabria a few years back and had my moments of frustration for sure. Luckily I have an absolutely great mechanic shop that is seeing my passion for flying and how frustrated I am when down so they always speed things up and get me done as quickly as possible. Having a dependable, reliable and efficient mechanic shop in your back pocket I have found is total key to this whole "owning an aircraft thing." Good luck with everything.
Your absolutely right on the mechanic issue! I have found a good one that is retired from the airlines. I had to sweet talk him into comming out of retirement! Thanks for watching.
Hey Mark, Heard you talking about precision approaches while undergoing your IFR training. You said you had some concerns about breaking minimums. On a precision approach ILS or PAR (MIL) it is terped to provided obstacle clearance below the Minimums (normally 200' AGL) because the approach is a constant rate approach(Coupled AP or Manually flown) and your DH is Minimums. "100 to go" then At 'DH' call the Pilot or Non FLying pilot (2 drivers) should call ; Visual continue/Visual Landing/visual I have control or Nothing Seen GA! Granted for the 1-2 Secs to call minimums to looking for runway environment, you will only lose 10-15 in initiating a GA. Now for RNAV/GPS approaches you can also set them up as a vertical constant rate but you want to get down to MDA prior to your MAP,, maybe .2 nm back. so that you can arrest your descent, trim the aircraft out and be looking for runway environment prior to MAP. So basically on a precision Approach ILS/PAR you will break minimum while you look at the landing environment and then transition the aircraft from descent to positive rate and then Missed approach procedure. Non-precision the minimums are hard decks regardless is you use stepdowns or a constant rate. Flying IFR is way better on glass than Steam! Liked the video, the Lord has been good to you...keep dreaming. Tim Retired CAF Driver H3,EH101,AW139,
Thank you for your honesty, it is refreshing. Anyone in your situation would be frustrated, it is okay to feel that way. Hopefully this rebuild will lead to many hours of enjoyment to come.
Hi Mark I’ve managed and owned airplanes since the 90’s. It’s frustrating sometimes but the benefits outmatch the frustration. I have my own repair station and full time mechanic. You will reach a balance along the way we’re it’s all in the past. Best Rodrigo
What a great, honest video...and I really feel your pain. At some point in the near future, the good will start to outweigh the bad, and you will have a great airplane to fly for a long time. Keep it going.
As you’ve probably already calculated, the total will be in the 100 grand area. But… you’ll look back in a couple of years and realize how much this saved by avoiding the piston twin. This will look cheap! Insurance, complexity, downtime, etc. will ALL be less with this fixed gear baby you’re sinking money into at this point. Remember, you’re maintaining a $650,000 airplane (about what it would cost new if they still made them). Doesn’t make it much easier to write the checks, but at least it somewhat explains it. As a member of the crazy 180/185 cult, I look forward to bumping (not literally!) into you sometime. Have fun on your checkride! A new world is about to open up with that rating.
Thanks for your video. It’s for this exact reason I have a new Cirrus on order. It was a difficult decision because I’ve never bought a new car in my life, but I didn’t want to own an airplane without a warranty. Won’t solve the downtime problem should I have an issue, but I didn’t want to worry about unknown expenses so I paid for them in advance 😂. I guess I won’t know how much until I sell and then know how much the plane depreciated.
Jim, Thanks for watching... I would love to hear what your expenses and thoughts are after you own the Cirrus for a year. If you don't mind, you can email me your contact info so we can stay connected. mark@villagewealthmgmt.com. How long was you planning to own the Cirrus? It seems to me that the depreciation levels off around the 5 year mark. I am curious on the "real operation cost with depreciation over 5 and 10 years. People are pretty passionate about their opinions on costs and type of aircraft. I am just interested in the real numbers. I just flew a 22T and was astonished with the performance. I am sure you will love the Cirrus have fun!!
Speaking from experience….. you WILL eventually get that 180 tight, reliable and the way you want it. Buy a new SR22 and you’ll still have ownership frustrations as it’ll take 500 hours to get IT dialed in too. Once you get em dialed in though, life gets better so long as you operate them correctly.
Sorry to hear that this happened to you. I settled on a smaller 2 seat airplane that was experimental but brand new due to many of the headaches you describe with older airplanes. Used to have a 182 but it was a 60 year old '59 and constantly going down for maintenance. HOWEVER.....after about 2 years of ownership we had finally sunk enough $$$ into that cessna for it to be reliable and the new owner has had few, if any problems with it. Even the factory new airplane has had a 2 week+ grounding due to an engine ignition related maintenance issue. Difference is with the experimental I can do a fair bit of work on minor issues myself without relying on shops that are 2 week+ backlogged to even look at any problems. Anyway, I sympathize, but I hope that if you stick with it you will get your airplane to a point of acceptable reliability soon. It takes a few years....
I just watched your "3rd year of ownership" video about your 180. I am early in my Skywagon journey, too, as I bought my A185E in the summer of 2020. I am not going to get into the debate on whether they are an investment or not (depends), but I will say that if you do not have good friends or family members that are A&Ps, costs of ownership can get out of hand. Part costs are brutal, but it is the labor that really gets you, given that a decent A&P is over $100/hr up here in Alaska. The main people that I know who insure their airplanes up here are the commercial pilots that work them either fish spotting, guiding, or air taxi. Otherwise you are paying over $6k/yr just for hull insurance. Your hangar rental costs are about half of what we get up here, too. I have owned my Citabria since I was in high school and if I had insured it, I would have paid for it twice over the last 25 years :). I suppose if you take a loan for an airplane then there is an insurance requirement, but cost-wise I would say it isn't worth on an older machine. Maybe on a newer build SR22 or something, but not an old rag wing or Cessna. Anyhow, it's always interesting to see how other people approach general aviation and I appreciate you posting the videos. I hope subsequent years treat you better and you do not have any more engine issues. We just did a top-end on the IO-520D this last winter and it was about $10K when all said and done (I had spare cylinders already to have OH). Cheers!
Thanks for watching! I have considered the insurance going self insured.. but then I have a scary landing and am reminded that 400hrs in a tailwheel for my skill is still too risky! I would think someone like yourself has much more experience and is way more confident in their ability in not screwing up a great airframe on a gusty crosswind landing. I am surprised that your hanger cost is so high up there... but then again it seems everything is more expensive in Alaska!
Thomas, This airplane sat extended period of times without being run in a humid environment. This is something to consider when purchasing an airplane be sure that the environment is dry... and the engine is being used otherwise the moisture in side the engine case can actually rust and cause major issues. I am not a mechanic but just some things I have learned the hard way! Good Luck with your flying adventures! Thanks for watching.
I’d be easy to say your doing it wrong, but when do parts and maintenance get cheaper? Fix it the way you want IF your going to keep it. Engine supply seems to have evaporated, I can’t find a used, overhauled or worn out IO-520 or 550 D anywhere.
You have a good idea with yhe two planes. Get a 140 for 20 or 30k and then you can stay current when the big plane is down or if you dont need the useful load or speed. Works for me.
Certified aircraft is frighting to own, especially when they become antiques. I would love to own one, but expense is just too high. My option now is to build an experimental knowing that it will be new airframe, engine, prop, and instruments. It won't be a 4 or 6 place airplane. It will either be a RV-14, or a RV-15 once Vans gets it finances straighten out. You are fortunate to have a business use for a plane and can help with your tax deductions. Most aircraft owners don't have a business use deduction. I flew for several business owners in their airplanes over the years. One reflected on the costs of ownership going from a twin, to helicopter, to a yacht. If you thought the twin was expensive, its never as expensive as the helicopter or the yacht even for business use.
Few years back I reluctantly purchased a 2004 182t from vanbortal. I say this because they seem to charge a premium price. HOWEVER!! I couldn't be happier with my decision. the plane is top notch. the plane developed a leak in the wet wing within a few months. I called vanbortal and they sent a pilot to pick up the plane to have repaired and delivered it back to me!!!!! yes I paid a premium but it came with a good airplane and would not hasitate to buy my next plane from them! not knowing what you paid for your aircraft. after your repairs you may be in same price or more than mine. after almost 4 years i have had some maintance issues but minor compared to what you are experiencing. my major cost was a prop inspection and re-seal which was more precaution than needed. and RPM sending unit. all the rest was standard stuff. mags being the most costly. So you may want to check them out,
for everything you've done so far, you're right on the money, if not ahead. Welcome to owning a 50 year old aircraft. Take a look at bushliner and see what it cost to re-manufacture a Cessna 180 from the ground up with upgrades and have an essentially brand new 180. And if you think thats expensive go buy a cirrus and see how much money youre out in year 3 with a warranty! But dont be disheartened, youre doing it right. as long as you have a halfway decent mechanic that catches and addresses the small stuff at annual, youll end up with an aircraft that flys more than it breaks. The sticker price is the cheapest part of aircraft ownership.
that sounds very expensive for a field overhaul?. A manufacture overhaul would be much cheaper or same price with better resale value. A field overhual is fine but the lowest end overhaul, a overhaul shop is next then manufacture overhaul which resets engine to zero hours just like a new engine.
You forgot the first rule of owning a certified airplane ,never add up your maintenance costs! Seriously though, I think this might be the only hobby that appreciates in value.
I know your frustrated now but with what you have done to this aircraft it will be capable and reliable for you to make that sucker pay for everything you put into it. It's a nice 180 and as you know it will always be worth a premium. Best wishes to you. Coming from an owner of 3 current aircraft and one is 80 years old!
I was going to buy a 180/185 but for this very reason That's why I rent when I'm done flying its not my problem any more I give them the keys back go get in my car with a smile on my face and go out to eat some place thinking back about the great time i just had.
Guaranteed your getting ripped somewhere. Just had a cowling redone. The guy charged 15 hours for 3 or 4 hours work. Aviation will come to a reckoning very soon as this economy collapses and everything is reset.
I am doing exactly what you were doing minus the engine rebuild to my 1973 Piper Arrow. Let me make two comments that are just food for thought. Both Cirrus and Continental Motors are owned by the Chinese Communist Party. With a looming trade war, I am doing my best to avoid both. A simple thought to ponder is: You have a very nice airplane, purchasing a replacement, engine and pickling. It might not be the worst idea you’ve had. I am in line for a replacement engine for my Lycoming powered Arrow and my engine right now has 200 since major overhaul. Because I am not AOG I don’t expect delivery for three years
Sorry to hear about the trials. What a bummer. The saying goes something like, "teach your kids to love aviation and they will never have money for drugs". Thanks for the update.
🤣 Thats for sure!! I will remember that!!
Thankyou for these videos! As a Owner wannabe this is importand! Thanks!
You hit the nail on the head. It’s frustrating to own an airplane. Lots of red tape. Hard to find parts and equally hard to find good IAs. In the end it’s worth it. Love your plane, keep up the good work. Hope you can make it out here to Idaho and get to experience what your plane can do.
As an IA I can relate, its usually the first annual that the new owner finds out why it was such a great deal! With C-150's going in the 35-40k range now you will have a pretty good investment when its done. Engine parts/ accs.. etc. are all going for a premium with the high demand, I suspect Cirrus/ Piper / Cessna have the first dibs from Continental/ Lycoming not to mention the experimental world. Students are also flying any pos they can get their hands on.
For Sure! Thanks for watching!
I can totally relate Mark. Bought a Citabria a few years back and had my moments of frustration for sure. Luckily I have an absolutely great mechanic shop that is seeing my passion for flying and how frustrated I am when down so they always speed things up and get me done as quickly as possible. Having a dependable, reliable and efficient mechanic shop in your back pocket I have found is total key to this whole "owning an aircraft thing." Good luck with everything.
Your absolutely right on the mechanic issue! I have found a good one that is retired from the airlines. I had to sweet talk him into comming out of retirement! Thanks for watching.
Hey Mark, Heard you talking about precision approaches while undergoing your IFR training. You said you had some concerns about breaking minimums. On a precision approach ILS or PAR (MIL) it is terped to provided obstacle clearance below the Minimums (normally 200' AGL) because the approach is a constant rate approach(Coupled AP or Manually flown) and your DH is Minimums. "100 to go" then At 'DH' call the Pilot or Non FLying pilot (2 drivers) should call ; Visual continue/Visual Landing/visual I have control or Nothing Seen GA! Granted for the 1-2 Secs to call minimums to looking for runway environment, you will only lose 10-15 in initiating a GA. Now for RNAV/GPS approaches you can also set them up as a vertical constant rate but you want to get down to MDA prior to your MAP,, maybe .2 nm back. so that you can arrest your descent, trim the aircraft out and be looking for runway environment prior to MAP. So basically on a precision Approach ILS/PAR you will break minimum while you look at the landing environment and then transition the aircraft from descent to positive rate and then Missed approach procedure. Non-precision the minimums are hard decks regardless is you use stepdowns or a constant rate. Flying IFR is way better on glass than Steam! Liked the video, the Lord has been good to you...keep dreaming. Tim Retired CAF Driver H3,EH101,AW139,
Thank you for your honesty, it is refreshing. Anyone in your situation would be frustrated, it is okay to feel that way. Hopefully this rebuild will lead to many hours of enjoyment to come.
Thanks for watching!
Hi Mark I’ve managed and owned airplanes since the 90’s. It’s frustrating sometimes but the benefits outmatch the frustration. I have my own repair station and full time mechanic. You will reach a balance along the way we’re it’s all in the past.
Best Rodrigo
What a great, honest video...and I really feel your pain. At some point in the near future, the good will start to outweigh the bad, and you will have a great airplane to fly for a long time. Keep it going.
As you’ve probably already calculated, the total will be in the 100 grand area. But… you’ll look back in a couple of years and realize how much this saved by avoiding the piston twin. This will look cheap! Insurance, complexity, downtime, etc. will ALL be less with this fixed gear baby you’re sinking money into at this point. Remember, you’re maintaining a $650,000 airplane (about what it would cost new if they still made them). Doesn’t make it much easier to write the checks, but at least it somewhat explains it. As a member of the crazy 180/185 cult, I look forward to bumping (not literally!) into you sometime. Have fun on your checkride! A new world is about to open up with that rating.
Thanks for your video. It’s for this exact reason I have a new Cirrus on order. It was a difficult decision because I’ve never bought a new car in my life, but I didn’t want to own an airplane without a warranty. Won’t solve the downtime problem should I have an issue, but I didn’t want to worry about unknown expenses so I paid for them in advance 😂. I guess I won’t know how much until I sell and then know how much the plane depreciated.
Jim,
Thanks for watching... I would love to hear what your expenses and thoughts are after you own the Cirrus for a year. If you don't mind, you can email me your contact info so we can stay connected. mark@villagewealthmgmt.com. How long was you planning to own the Cirrus? It seems to me that the depreciation levels off around the 5 year mark. I am curious on the "real operation cost with depreciation over 5 and 10 years. People are pretty passionate about their opinions on costs and type of aircraft. I am just interested in the real numbers. I just flew a 22T and was astonished with the performance. I am sure you will love the Cirrus have fun!!
Speaking from experience….. you WILL eventually get that 180 tight, reliable and the way you want it. Buy a new SR22 and you’ll still have ownership frustrations as it’ll take 500 hours to get IT dialed in too. Once you get em dialed in though, life gets better so long as you operate them correctly.
Sorry to hear that this happened to you. I settled on a smaller 2 seat airplane that was experimental but brand new due to many of the headaches you describe with older airplanes. Used to have a 182 but it was a 60 year old '59 and constantly going down for maintenance. HOWEVER.....after about 2 years of ownership we had finally sunk enough $$$ into that cessna for it to be reliable and the new owner has had few, if any problems with it. Even the factory new airplane has had a 2 week+ grounding due to an engine ignition related maintenance issue. Difference is with the experimental I can do a fair bit of work on minor issues myself without relying on shops that are 2 week+ backlogged to even look at any problems. Anyway, I sympathize, but I hope that if you stick with it you will get your airplane to a point of acceptable reliability soon. It takes a few years....
Thanks for sharing your experience and thanks for watching!
I just watched your "3rd year of ownership" video about your 180. I am early in my Skywagon journey, too, as I bought my A185E in the summer of 2020. I am not going to get into the debate on whether they are an investment or not (depends), but I will say that if you do not have good friends or family members that are A&Ps, costs of ownership can get out of hand. Part costs are brutal, but it is the labor that really gets you, given that a decent A&P is over $100/hr up here in Alaska. The main people that I know who insure their airplanes up here are the commercial pilots that work them either fish spotting, guiding, or air taxi. Otherwise you are paying over $6k/yr just for hull insurance. Your hangar rental costs are about half of what we get up here, too. I have owned my Citabria since I was in high school and if I had insured it, I would have paid for it twice over the last 25 years :). I suppose if you take a loan for an airplane then there is an insurance requirement, but cost-wise I would say it isn't worth on an older machine. Maybe on a newer build SR22 or something, but not an old rag wing or Cessna. Anyhow, it's always interesting to see how other people approach general aviation and I appreciate you posting the videos. I hope subsequent years treat you better and you do not have any more engine issues. We just did a top-end on the IO-520D this last winter and it was about $10K when all said and done (I had spare cylinders already to have OH). Cheers!
Thanks for watching! I have considered the insurance going self insured.. but then I have a scary landing and am reminded that 400hrs in a tailwheel for my skill is still too risky! I would think someone like yourself has much more experience and is way more confident in their ability in not screwing up a great airframe on a gusty crosswind landing. I am surprised that your hanger cost is so high up there... but then again it seems everything is more expensive in Alaska!
It’s August. Do you have an update for us Mark. Hope it’s all back together and you are enjoying the new engine.
Love your honesty! It's only money!
Why was there rust inside?
Thomas,
This airplane sat extended period of times without being run in a humid environment. This is something to consider when purchasing an airplane be sure that the environment is dry... and the engine is being used otherwise the moisture in side the engine case can actually rust and cause major issues. I am not a mechanic but just some things I have learned the hard way! Good Luck with your flying adventures! Thanks for watching.
I’d be easy to say your doing it wrong, but when do parts and maintenance get cheaper? Fix it the way you want IF your going to keep it. Engine supply seems to have evaporated, I can’t find a used, overhauled or worn out IO-520 or 550 D anywhere.
You have a good idea with yhe two planes. Get a 140 for 20 or 30k and then you can stay current when the big plane is down or if you dont need the useful load or speed. Works for me.
Certified aircraft is frighting to own, especially when they become antiques. I would love to own one, but expense is just too high. My option now is to build an experimental knowing that it will be new airframe, engine, prop, and instruments. It won't be a 4 or 6 place airplane. It will either be a RV-14, or a RV-15 once Vans gets it finances straighten out.
You are fortunate to have a business use for a plane and can help with your tax deductions. Most aircraft owners don't have a business use deduction.
I flew for several business owners in their airplanes over the years. One reflected on the costs of ownership going from a twin, to helicopter, to a yacht. If you thought the twin was expensive, its never as expensive as the helicopter or the yacht even for business use.
I promise you you could have found a motor. I’m in t(e process of replacing mine and a rebuild takes time. Purchasing not so much.
Believe me - I feel your pain and frustration.
Few years back I reluctantly purchased a 2004 182t from vanbortal. I say this because they seem to charge a premium price. HOWEVER!! I couldn't be happier with my decision. the plane is top notch. the plane developed a leak in the wet wing within a few months. I called vanbortal and they sent a pilot to pick up the plane to have repaired and delivered it back to me!!!!! yes I paid a premium but it came with a good airplane and would not hasitate to buy my next plane from them! not knowing what you paid for your aircraft. after your repairs you may be in same price or more than mine. after almost 4 years i have had some maintance issues but minor compared to what you are experiencing. my major cost was a prop inspection and re-seal which was more precaution than needed. and RPM sending unit. all the rest was standard stuff. mags being the most costly. So you may want to check them out,
for everything you've done so far, you're right on the money, if not ahead. Welcome to owning a 50 year old aircraft. Take a look at bushliner and see what it cost to re-manufacture a Cessna 180 from the ground up with upgrades and have an essentially brand new 180. And if you think thats expensive go buy a cirrus and see how much money youre out in year 3 with a warranty! But dont be disheartened, youre doing it right. as long as you have a halfway decent mechanic that catches and addresses the small stuff at annual, youll end up with an aircraft that flys more than it breaks. The sticker price is the cheapest part of aircraft ownership.
that sounds very expensive for a field overhaul?. A manufacture overhaul would be much cheaper or same price with better resale value. A field overhual is fine but the lowest end overhaul, a overhaul shop is next then manufacture overhaul which resets engine to zero hours just like a new engine.
You need the advice of Mike Busch. At Savvy Aircraft, Maintenance.
100% agree. I've learned a ton of good maintenance advice from Mike's podcasts. I'm sure his books are even better.
You forgot the first rule of owning a certified airplane ,never add up your maintenance costs! Seriously though, I think this might be the only hobby that appreciates in value.
Sorry for that!
Seems like the only affordable means of owning an airplane is having an AP/IA friend that has usage rights in exchange for services….
Big bore continental engines have always been plagued with problems and poor quality assurance. Too bad there isn't a Lycoming conversion.
I know your frustrated now but with what you have done to this aircraft it will be capable and reliable for you to make that sucker pay for everything you put into it. It's a nice 180 and as you know it will always be worth a premium. Best wishes to you. Coming from an owner of 3 current aircraft and one is 80 years old!
You have a great plane. You will be so happy in years to come .
Great video and enjoy your candor. Good news is you have a plane with soul.
Buying an airplane without a full prebuy is like getting married without first living together as they both help discover major malfunctions
hang in there champ this too shall pass
Great vid...truth!
Dude you have to find an experienced person to consult on you next purchase or sale !!!
Nice video!
cant hear u
Welcome to Aviation💰
If you own an airplane and want to become a millionaire you have to be a billionaire to begin with!
You are “frustrated”. Now, and you have sunk many thousands into your airplane. I feel for you and wonder when it might end?
I was going to buy a 180/185 but for this very reason That's why I rent when I'm done flying its not my problem any more I give them the keys back go get in my car with a smile on my face and go out to eat some place thinking back about the great time i just had.
Guaranteed your getting ripped somewhere. Just had a cowling redone. The guy charged 15 hours for 3 or 4 hours work. Aviation will come to a reckoning very soon as this economy collapses and everything is reset.
I am doing exactly what you were doing minus the engine rebuild to my 1973 Piper Arrow.
Let me make two comments that are just food for thought. Both Cirrus and Continental Motors are owned by the Chinese Communist Party. With a looming trade war, I am doing my best to avoid both.
A simple thought to ponder is: You have a very nice airplane, purchasing a replacement, engine and pickling. It might not be the worst idea you’ve had.
I am in line for a replacement engine for my Lycoming powered Arrow and my engine right now has 200 since major overhaul. Because I am not AOG I don’t expect delivery for three years
*promo sm* 😋