The challenge of iron gold is that the villain is Darrow from every other perspective. Its an indictment on all the death that Darrow has caused and asks “is it worth it”. And just because a lot of questions are raised in this book doesn’t mean they won’t be answered later
I loved this book. Probably my favorite of the series. It's the first time we see the consequences of Darrow's choices and are forced to ask ourselves if we think Darrow might actually be a bad person. It's a huge step forward from the original trilogy.
Interesting - I (austin) can see that. Didnt land for me, but I think for the exact reasons you state here is why I love Dark Age so much, I just think Dark Age takes that theme and focuses on the consequences in a much better way. But hey I’m all down for the sequel books not being a carbon copy of their predecessor (even with me being a massive fan of books like RR and GS)
its well written but it leaves much to be desired as a standalone book. Thinking of it as dark age part 1 makes it a lot stronger, but its ultimately a whole book of exposition. The pov chapters are much needed but ultimately arent well done until the later books, making the changes between characters jarring and annoying. I respect the opinion but i can actually never see this book being over a 6.5/10 as a standalone book
I thought we saw more emotion from Darrow as well as he tries to bury it. He realises that he cares more for war than his family and not for the reasons that he once did. I really enjoyed it but not for the reasons I enjoyed the other books.
You may have forgotten that Ephraim is not the way he is because of trig. In fact he joins the rising due to trigs death and helps the cause as a trainer and scar hunter. He becomes hateful after he and his team are caught by a gold they were hunting, his team was tortured in front of him. Despite the gold being caught in the act, the gold was let off due to them holding information Virginia needed. He’s hateful as he realised even with the rising, the worst people will still get away with anything as long as they’re powerful enough which means nothing has changed which means his teams torture and trigs death was meaningless
Still doesn't make me like his character. I didn't like how Pierce was trying to make me like such an insufferable and irredeemable asshole. What he did to Lyria in my eyes is unforgivable.
@@Sagapants necessary sure. But likeable no. And much of his character was an attempt at the "likeable scoundrel" trope(which I normally love) but when he treats people like crap and destroyed my favorite new characters world when it's finally just getting good for her.
I think the thing is though, you only really find about about his experience with the Gold at the end. So through the whole book, it comes off like his motivation and is hatred is just about or at least mostly about Trigg. I think aided his characterization finding that out that he has more of a reason to keep people at arms length and to blame the new republic like Lyria but you don’t know until the last few chapters. You get a few hints but it doesn’t feel as significant as losing Trigg until he goes back there.
I agree with your takes on a lot of books, but man hard disagree on this one. It definitely doesn't have the break neck action and pacing of the first 3 but I really appreciated the more mature and complex nature of the book. Getting to spend some more time in the world as the other POV characters and really seeing the aftermath of the 'Rising' was so fascinating to me. I think a lot of people's disappointment in Iron Gold is because it wasn't what they wanted/expected after Morning Star (which I do kind of get). There's a very big shift in tone where it goes from the Star Wars-esque action adventure thrill ride to a darker, more complex political thriller. I love both but I can understand why some people may not. P.S That being said Golden Sun is still my favourite book of the series
I (austin) am with ya on Golden Son! But to your point on Iron Gold, Im curious if what people said about re-reading it would improve my reception of it - Im just upset I committed a cardinal sin and critiqued Pierce Brown. Im ashamed 🥸
I can see appreciating the groundwork that the book does more on a re-read, but I think your issues with the plot and characters are still going to be there (which is valid.) I think one of the biggest differences in this sequel series is that not all of the characters you follow are liable. Like Ephraim for instance, for the most part sucks as a person and Lysander is Lysander. However, that doesn't mean that they're "bad" characters it's such that they're coming from a place you don't agree with and they are actively working against Darrow who we have been with for 3 books and love. I really enjoyed Lysanders POV because it's so fascinating seeing basically the anti-Darrow and seeing how he despises Darrow for the things he's done but then goes and does stuff that's just as bad if not worse.
@@sambarker7044 agreed Lysander was the best here and you’re totally right, I look at characters the same. They don’t need to be ‘likable’ - just need to not be apathetic toward them and understand them deeply enough so that their motivations/decisions/potential future character arc really hits home, or in the case of antagonists you deeply understand their decisions and what makes them evil which is just as fascinating
Not even a courtesy shout out to Cassius and how epic that entire arena sequence was, or the dialogue with Lysander about his father prior to the trial by combat?! One of the best parts of the book for me
I read the saga when the first five books were already released and I would not like it to end at Morning Star. The story was just not complete, it would have been a dissapointing ending. Iron Gold was fantastic, and Dark Age is one of my favourite books ever
It would have been a far too convenient happy ending. I wouldn’t be able to buy that life for Darrow and the Republic just sail into the sunset and have a happily ever after.
I re-read every Red Rising book before Light Bringer and Iron Gold was the biggest surprise and difference I enjoyed it a lot more. Darrow's chapter's are way less frustrating and make more sense in retrospect after reading Dark Age. The foreshadowing and set up is excellent and many of your complaints are paid off in Dark Age. I loved Lyria's POV from her very first chapter and was surprised to realise most of the fandom didn't like her. Her chapters in Dark Age are incredible! I have to agree about Ephraim, he was someone who took a long time to grow on me but won me over in the end and Lysanders chapters in all three sequel books are just consistently compelling!
“Sometimes the juice is worth the squeeze and this was a hard lemon to squeeze” HAHA that’s the perfect representation of Iron Gold. I’ve heard a re read after DA/LB makes Iron Gold a lot better
I haven't had a chance to watch your original trilogy reviews yet (will be watching them soon) but as someone who loves the series as a whole and who ranks IG as my second favourite book (DA>IG>GS>LB=MS>RR) I understand the criticisms of Iron Gold. Like most people I found my first read of Iron Gold a bit slow, the switch to 4 PoVs and the darkening of tone combined with the slower pace makes it a very different book to get into. The sequel series as a whole is a much slower political drama and even then Iron Gold is essentially an extended prologue for Dark Age. One of the reason people generally appreciate IG more on a re-read is because the entire book is essentially setting up the character and plot conflicts that drive the new series, moreover the story becomes far more Grey - Darrow especially is no longer the unquestioned hero of the series (especially hammered home by the addition of extra PoVs) . It establishes the sides of the conflict and the stakes going forward and almost everything set up in Iron Gold pays off in Dark Age/Lightbringer. When it comes to character work I'm a constant defender of Darrow in this book - gone is the idealistic revolutionary of the first trilogy (something that is generally easy to identify with as in the first Trilogy Darrow is at heart a heroic character) in his place we have a tired, angry, jaded warlord who will do anything to win which is inherently a harder character for most people to connect with. When it comes to the other PoVs I agree that Lysander is by far the strongest (discounting Darrow) and continues to be a fascinating PoV throughout Dark Age and Lightbringer. Personally I found the additions of Ephraim and Lyria difficult to get into but once I got deeper into their story lines I have really come to enjoy them - they both provide things that neither Darrow (in both the first trilogy and the sequels) nor Lysander's PoVs do - Lyria provides a truly red view of the world and we get to see what life is like as a virtually powerless figure in the story (provides a "people's history" view of the story) and gives us great insight into the PoV of the masses that Darrow is trying to "save" (including giving a fascinating view on the consequences of Darrow's actions - something that is a key part of the sequels in general). Ephraim on the other hand is again an interesting character as we get to see the plot from the PoV of an extremely effective non-gold (or to a lesser degree Red) actor in the story (something missing in the first trilogy). We also get to see the grimy underside of life in the Red Rising universe, we see what people do when they truly don't care about the main plot of the story and are only involved in the plot to further their own personal gains. I generally understand people who struggle with Iron Gold but IMO its one of the strongest books in the series - especially when viewed retroactively once finishing Dark Age as almost everything set up is payed off to near perfection. In IG Darrow is a broken man struggling to do what he thinks is right and will do virtually anything to secure the outcome he wants (the main question of Darrow's story in IG/DA is do the ends justify the means?), Lysander provides a younger more idealistic (closer to the Darrow of the first trilogy - especially book 1) PoV but from someone naturally positioned to ideologically oppose Darrow. Lyria provides a glimpse into the life of the average people just trying to live their lives amongst the cataclysmic events of the series and being virtually helpless to affect their own fate. Ephraim is almost the opposite of Lyria - he has little power on a grand scale but through will and skill is able to play a massive role in the story and provides a fascinating glimpse into the more subtle conflicts of the series (and of humanity, he will do essentially anything to further his own agenda - specifically to get rich and not give a damn). Sorry for the wall of text and thanks for reading my rant lmao
In order from best to worst, it's basically LB>DA>GS>MS>IG>RR. I think Lightbringer and Dark Age are interchangeable based on your tastes. The point is that Iron Gold is an intro in the same sense that Red Rising is.
@2ToRamble It has its issues and I think Dark Age is technically the better book, but Light Bringer is a bit of a return to form and is a more enjoyable read.
I just finished Iron Gold, so I have not read Dark Age or Lightbringer but I loved this book. probably my second favorite of the series so far. Getting to see how the other POV's think of Darrow as the villain was incredible. Lysander was easily my favorite POV of the book, and Lyria and Ephraim's chapters got better with each chapter. I also don't believe Cassius is dead since we do not see him die on page. All in all I loved this book and am super excited to start Dark Age!
I think due to the four POVs there just wasnt the same speed and action of the first three because we just got the start (part 1) of the story (like austin said). Hoping that dark age will provide the part two and three pacing that we all fell in love with.
I’ve been reading this book for 3-4 months and it isn’t very good. So seeing your spoiler free review makes me happy. I love the OG trilogy and I’m excited for Dark Ages and LightBringer.
I loved this book, and it's funny because what you didn't like about the lack of choice Darrow has is exactly something that I love here and that I found really interesting. Because all of the main characters are cornered, and you know it's not the perfect choice but there is no good choice, just hard ones (which is the theme of IG and DA really) so you're just frustrated like the characters ! I was worried with the begining of your video that you would say Darrow made the wrong choice (like must people do for some reason !) and I'm so glad you didn't ! As for the passiveness : again it was an interesting change for me, he's tired, he's been at it for ten years and everyone who has had his back until then is turning on him now so it made sense for me that he would be hesitating and not his confident self.
Nooooooooooooooo. I waffle between Iron Gold and Golden Son as my favorites of the series... until Light Bringer, it's up there. I loved getting the new POV's. All of them are great as perspectives and Eph and Lyria are actually great characters. Lysander can fly into the sun as far as I'm concerned. I wasn't a really a Lysander hater until later, but WHAT THE ACTUAL F???! LYSANDER IS CARRYING THIS WHOLE BOOK??? I don't understand you at all, Rich. haha
Darrow did not have to kill Wulfgar! He could have obeyed the commands he was given. Saying he was right, doesn't justify his actions and I wouldn't agree that he was 100% right. How he went about it wasn't right and he had to live with the consequences of his decisions.
Fair point! Ill let Rich respond to the Lysander comment, but to Wulfgar I (austin) was more focused on the fact that Darrow didn’t intentionally kill him. It made the catalyst of the story more passive and gave Darrow an out whereas in Red Rising Darrow killing Julian was a choice and I could emphathize with Cassius’ anger and was way more invested in the consquences of Darrows decision and the moral qualms it brought (hiding truth from Cassius for his own personal gain, etc) which was just incredibly tense, suspenseful, and made Darrow a truly flawed person. In Iron Gold Darrow didn’t ever mean to kill Wulfgar - Sevros stun fist put Wulfgar in the trajectory of Darrow’s blade. It gave Darrow an “out” to where I wasn’t compelled by the passive action rather than the more active one where maybe he killed Wulfgar in a moment of rage and frustration. Darrow is never really “wrong” here because it was a mistake and there isnt any tension, suspense, or interesting character change he must go through or difficult moral qualms he must face because of this. I realize that we’re reading a different Darrow at this point, but I tend to really oppose character decisions that have things happen to them rather than them make actions that help me relate to their personality and therefore the consequences and character arc is more interesting for me. Hope I explained that right, Im definitely in the minority on this one but that was just one of my problems with the book but Pierce Brown is still the man, loved Dark Age and going to read Lightbringer soon!
@@2ToRamble yeah I can see your point. But I would still place the blame for Wulfar's death on Darrow since he was the reason everyone was fighting. He dealt the blow by accident, but he also was the cause. Darrow has become a Warlord and he's starting to see that break down his relationships. Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed Dark Age better. Hopefully Light Bringer hits even harder. In many ways, it is a return to form, I think.
I just finished this and wow . It’s honestly probably my favorite so far . I understand the complaints on Ephriam but I didn’t hate him. I found it interesting how you didn’t like lyria at all and said you felt more from eo because I actually thought lyrias story gripped me to her way quicker then anyone else did. I loved her . As for victra I didn’t love what she was doing in the end it was pretty weird . Overall I think it’s browns best book so far next to golden sun
I have to say I’m actually surprised by Richard’s rating. Remembering back to his complaints about the original trilogy the major themes were that we didn’t really see other color’s perspectives, didn’t get to see Darrow suffer the consequences of his choices, some of the dialogue was a bit cheesy. I was thinking that some of those issues he had were resolved in IG, so I’m surprised that none of that really landed!
I disagree with you about the political situation at the beginning of the book. It’s not so simple. To say that Venus is the last planet they just have to finish off is not true. First both Mars and Mercury are incredibly unstable. On Mercury the populace was indoctrinated against the Republic which made it so easy for Atalantia to win Mercury back. You also have to consider how the planets move. Mercury is the (relatively) closest planet to Earth. This is something Pierce had to consider while writing these books and actually did. Venus is a far greater security risk especially due to threat the Rim might or might not be. This is an argument made by Dancer. And Darrow was proven wrong. He made the wrong decision. I really liked this installment. But I agree about the POVs. Both Lydia and Ephraim are characters I love but they had to grow on me and that took time. It is an 8 out of 10 for me but I think that it is the second “worst” book in the series (Red Rising is only average tbh). Anyway, love to you guys. Your discussions about books are a lot of fun. Terry Pratchett is great. Brandon Sanderson is ‘overrated’. The Wheel of Time is… let’s just say that I agree with Austin on that one.
Appreciate ya listening! I hope Rich sees this comment to respond to the political situation but I hope he doesn’t read the end where you made that Wheel of Time comment (pshh thank you for the VALIDATION!). Cheers
It maybe my hindsight overriding my memory because after getting caught up with i cant see this second series as anything but perfect. Though irongold and darkage kinda blend into one book in my memory. I believe those other perspectives you dont enjoy really pay off later.
I honestly love this book far more than the original trilogy. It focuses on the consequences of Darrow being a mass murderer as well as focusing more on slow burn world building which I'm always a sucker for in sci-fi. I also really enjoyed the new POV characters as they're all against Darrow. It was a very interesting perspective shift to see the main protagonist of the trilogy being viewed as the antagonist (which I've always kinda thought he was anyways)
One change I noticed about Darrow this go around was the effect not just his choices made on him but also what being held captive by the Jackal did to him. I was looking for that in Morning Star after being held in a stone box for 9mons but didn’t see it. While I was sad, he did seem subdued from his normal Darrow self, I saw that his actions were driven from his trauma. He couldn’t be held captive again. He couldn’t let his enemies put him in a position where he’d lose everything again. I can at least appreciate that addition to his character because that experience is not something you walk away from. I do agree with Austin too about this being Darrow at the beginning of a book. He felt in a similar spot at the beginning of Golden Son before he turned everything around. I don’t mind the other perspectives too much, but it left less time for Pierce Brown’s usual writing strategy.
Just found your guys discussion videos on the series - it's my absolute favourite book series so it's been fun bingeing your stuff today! Great discussions, great viewpoints - I'll stay tuned for Dark Age and Light Bringer soon for sure! A few thoughts about Iron Gold - I absolutely felt the same way the first time I read the book. This one was a let down for sure and I was really wondering why it wasn't a whole book (and trilogy) of Lysander, who was by far the most compelling the first time I read it. I've now read Iron Gold four times (as a part of series re-reads...I like this series A LOT) and what changed my perspective was when I read the book after hearing the comment that each of the other three POV characters (aside from Darrow) are characters that Darrow has damaged (directly or indirectly) through his actions...and then it clicked. Iron Gold is an exploration by Pierce Brown of two things: his world and the consequences of Darrow's actions. When I read the book through that lens you start to see what Brown was trying to accomplish and my appreciation of the book rose a lot (even if it still is the weakest entry in my opinion). This especially applies to the question you guys had of "why is Lyria here?" She's absolutely Pierce's exploration of the world Darrow has created. I also certainly found it to be true that Dark Age (my favourite book in the series) couldn't be what it is without the setup in Iron Gold. It is a book that lays the foundation for later events rather than containing much of those events and it suffers for that, but the rest of the series is all the better for it.
Wonderfully put! I feel the same. I was very annoyed with Lyria, wondering why her point of view existed. Through Dark Age and Lightbringer, I grew admiration for her. Iron Gold suffers as a stand alone but does a great job of laying groundwork for the next books. TLDR; Iron Gold had to crawl for Dark Age and Lightbringer to run.
Me personally, I liked Ephraim's POV. His anger, his depression, his addiction, and his behavior was so similar to things I've witnessed in myself and others. I think the reason people might not like Ephraim is because his feelings and thoughts are so close to the ugliness in each of us, and until you look inside yourself and truly realize your nature isn't to be good, you won't understansd Ephraim. His behavior of lashing out at others when angry was very relatable because I've been there. Ephraim and Lyria's hatred of the Republic is also a perspective I enjoyed. I think the reason I liked the political intrigue in this book so much is because of how relatable it is. The bullshit in the Republic = the bullshit in our current political leadership. I think Iron Gold was an interesting commentary on how much shit really goes on in our political system (as is the way with politics). I loved the scene when Lyria was experiencing a flawed justice system with her near-arrest and then later interrogation with Theodora and Niobe. It's exactly like what we see today. I also liked Darrow's pov in this book. His reluctant actions in this book are completely understandable because he's a tired parent who misses his kid. He isn't the aggressive, youthful warmonger he was when he was younger, so it took him more time before he came to his breaking point in this book. Another character I really liked was Romulus and his ending was heartbreaking. He was honestly one of the only pure characters in the series and I had nothing but respect for him. His actions made sense and he loved his people.
Appreciate the thoughts! Very much with you on Romulus - his story and position was well done. And I can see how you enjoyed the other Povs, very fair - what’d you think of Lysander this book?
@2ToRamble I loved the insight on the Rim world that Lysander's pov gave. I liked reading from his perspective because of how damn intelligent he is. It's so different from every other pov, save the fact that he hates Darrow, like Ephraim and Lyria. And rightfully so because Darrow destroyed his entire world. I'm interested to see where he will go in Dark Age!
One of the few time I disagree with the guys here. Iron Gold is far from a perfect book but I think it really shows the growth of Pierce Brown as a writer. I went into this seeing it as it’s own separate entity from the first three. It shows how you can win all the battles and still have a long drawn out war. It’s setting up the rest of the sequel series and I can’t wait for Darrow to spank Lysander!
Oo interesting point - I have a response to this but it’s nearing 2am. I hope to remember to comment back on this tomorrow or in the next few days when I get a chance! Please remind me if I totally drop the ball on this - great comment bc it’ll rake me a solid half a page to explain why I felt this way. Cheers!
Eo was the main character at the start of book 1, Lyria's family was a group of NPC'S. As the reader we lost someone with Darrow when Eo died, with Lyria's family we lost nothing.
True but that still doesn’t mean you can’t empathize with the loss and loneliness she experiences. I loved lyrics POV. Yes we didn’t know the players of her pain, but that doesn’t mean her drive was unwarranted
I get it! I almost quit the series because I just did not click with Iron Gold! I didn’t like Eph and Lyria the first time. Their POVs were so random. I liked Lysander especially with Cassius. BUT….Dark Age! Man does that book enhance everything. Ephraim went from someone whose chapters I wanted to skip to being my favorite! I bet you guys will love it!
Wait no shit? Pierce actually makes him a good character in Dark Age? I sure hope so I wanted to have him hurled from that skyscraper with Cyra in Iron Gold.
Iron Gold alone is better than the entirety of the original trilogy. Also I think this the first time I heard the sentence "Lysannder îs carrying this whole book"
We’re definitely the odd ones out here 👀! Didnt realize this book was that loved. Rich and I suck but at least we suck together on this one, usually it’s just me 🥸
@@niallcarrick6456 I wouldn't say very few people liked it their first time. Actually, most people did like it, but just didn't think it was as good as, say, Golden Son and Morning Star because it wasn't as action packed.
I loved it! Finished it in 3 days. For me the best parts were not the action, but the slow burn of the political side of Mustang running the Republic and what it entails, as well as the scheming and plotting of the Syndicate My favourite scene was Dancer talking to the Senators at the start. It read to me like a scene out of History text book come to life (which I love cos I am a Rome fanboy) I think why this book wasn’t a lot of people’s favourite is because it takes a more mature, slow pace looking at the real world consequences of regime change, and how unstable and consequential even the most well intentioned deeds truely are (Darrow a walking case study in that respect)
I won't defend Iron Gold, it wasn't my favourite and Lyria and Ephram weren't the strongest characters. So just a more objective observation about Darrow - He did lie outright about the offer of peace from the Ash Lord, and he did ignore the will of the people over the invasion of Mercury. It's perfectly reasonable the Vox did not want an invasion of Mercury because of the likely loss of life because that's exactly what happened. The fact that Darrow is right is meaningless, his actions pit him against the republic and his former father figure, that's the key. I won't say more because there are things happening that are spoilers for later books. Again, won't defend Iron Gold but I think you guys missed the mark criticising this aspect of the book.
I FINALLY finished Iron Gold, and I gotta say, I am surprised by your takes. I really wish i could debate with you guys and see why you feel how you do, because both of you disliking the story made it very linear in my opinion. The biggest thing I will agree on is that this book was not a page turner in the same way that Golden Son was. I mean, I basically couldn't put Golden Son down and had trouble breathing while reading it... But then my opinion diverges from yours. I really thought this was a good book. I think I have three main points: 1. The story cannot have the same breakneck speeds as the first three books because after a 10 year war we are dealing with the consequences. 2. Darrow also cannot be the same reckless destroyer, because he is shackled by the society he helped create. I do not see this as Darrow or Virginia being nutered. I see it as them trying to build, unlike books 1-3 where Darrow was only destroying a bad system. Now, if he acts with the same destruction, he undermines the system he faught for. 3. I do like ALL characters presented, specifically because they mirror each other. The easiest mirrors are Darrow and Lysander, being similar characters that were born on complete opposite ends of power, and their choices reflect their stance while both believing they are doing what is best for society. Lyria and Ephraim also reflect each other as individuals who believe the republic has failed them, but choose to act out in different ways. Overall I love your videos and cant wait to finish Dark Age because... because its a Red Rising novel. But also because I can watch your review after. 👍
Agree this is my least favorite as well. The way Lyria's camp is destroyed is typical Pierce Brown. The difference between Eo is that we found out that she waited for Darrow to come to age. She had agency through her conviction of ideas. Ultimately had a deeply personal moment with Darrow before her defiance lead to her death. Juxtaposed to Darrow's thoughts of compliance within the society and role in a family. Lyria instead provides background for new Red plight. Alas, no personal emotional setup to her situation. Where Darrow wanted a family and to be father in the 1st book to sacrificing it for responsibility in the following trilogy.
I agree that the Lysander parts carried the book. It was the most interesting. I actually liked Ephraim chapters. He not a symptomatic caracter. Agree on that to much was made of his loss. Actually Holiday explains it better that he felt betrayed by Mustang. That is understandable. Lyria was hard work to read. It should have been cut down. Also Darrows character evolves away from the red. He sends millions to their deaths an acts like Appolonius and the other gold psychopaths. It will be interesting to ses how if Lysander and Darrow evolve in contrast to each other.
Bit of a book here, sorry! But, I just finished Iron Gold and have been sitting with it for about an hour, trying to figure out how I feel about it. I couldn't get my hands on a physical copy, so I had to do the audio book, and Lysander's narrator did a good job UNTIL it got to what should have been exciting or emotional moments. His cadence and tone didn't change, so they sounded exactly like all the mundane moments which made him feel flatter than he probably would have, had I read it. I thought it was funny you couldn't remember Romulus' name or that of his family, bc I was trying to remember who Lysander and Cassius spent all that time with, and all I could remember was Romulus and Dio. No idea what their daughter's name was that Lysander liked. Not sure why they needed to spend SO much of the book there. Surpsingly, I liked Lyria's character the best of all the four POVs, probably in no small part due to the wonderful narrator who really conveyed ALL the emotions so well. She also had a story that made sense. She had a journey you could follow, with a beginning, middle, and end. Which, isn't saying much, actually. Completly agree with Richard that she didn't feel deserving of so much page time. Even as someone who got swept up in something, she seemed very . . . one dimensional. Ephraim I never cared about because I never knew what his goal was. All we knew about him was that he really loved Trigg. His parts kept me asking "what's the point?" Then, when we finally saw it in Part 3, I think it was, I was past the point of caring. I LOVED Sevro, Victra, and Electra! They were the only ones that had parts I ever got emotional about. As a mother, I viscerally understood Victra and loved her for her fire. And getting to see what a badass Electra is? Oh, I'm looking forward to seeing more from her! She's a little hellfire! ❤ And, poor, loyal Sevro! I love him so much and my heart hurts for him. As to Darrow...what? Good to see he FINALLY mentions having some PTSD, but WTH was that ending? I am so mad at Pierce Brown! What do you mean Darrow isn't gonna go find his kid? Why isn't he like Victra -- moving heaven and earth and going THROUGH whoever he's gotta go through to get his son? And, what about Mustang? He's just going to throw his hands up and say, "eh, she can handle it as well as I could." WHAT?!? Brown completley broke Darrow's character there. He most certainly wasn't a "fired arrow" in this book. His character was off in this book. I liked seeing how he handled being between a rock and a hard place, but his actions at the end, that isn't the Darrow I know. Darrow not being Darrow in Morning Star after a year of torture, sure, THAT made sense. But Darrow not going after his son? No way. Not sure if that is a character issue, or more of a plot issue, bc I know he is setting up the next book and he needs Darrow going off in another direction, but, this wasn't the way to do it. So, I think that's a plot issue, then. The book I had to trudge through falls apart completely for me right there in the last few pages. So dissapointing. This one was absolutely a 2.5 overall for me (in your new rating system).
Appreciate the thorough review!! With new rating system I (austin) gave it a 2 star, we arent too far off! Dark Age returns to peak Red Rising in my opinion, I hope you love it as much as I did
I can’t help but feel like you guys are reviewing this book through a strange lens. A big part being the “there is only one planet left” part. I think you guys are forgetting about The Rim, it’s been 10 years, their biggest enemy asks for peace. Look at this from the point of view of the people, not the warmongers that we see the story through. Of course the people want peace, they don’t understand war. They created a society of “demokracy”. If your country was telling you over and over “we’re just about to beat *insert country* let’s just lose another couple million people! Think of the future!” Would you serve your family up to them on a silver platter with peace talks on the table? A lot of your points I really don’t understand on this one guys
I appreciate the spoiler-free section. I am a few pages in to Iron Gold and, coming off Morming Star feeling disappointed I wasn't as excited about it as I was for the first two (Golden Son is my fav so far), I was feeling wary of Book 4. I'm definitely the "Dave" you were speaking to! 😄 I am glad to know I should manage my expectations going in, bc the next one will be better. 😊 Also, you GOTTA keep the allteration of Richard's Rambler Rating! It's perfect! 😄
Great podcast, I like hearing your opinions even if I agree with half of them haha. Lyria was an underwhelming character, as an audiobooker that was partly her narrator being weak, right accent but the inflections for scenes were kinda whiney. Maybe I'd be more positive on text, her story is just small and she doesn't have much power, I would have much preferred seeing her plot from Mustang, Victra or a Telemanus perspective. She is also a magnet for danger, to the point of being over the top, like she escapes the kidnapping only to immediately run into a bunch of Reds who want to do horrible things to her, really? then dealing with an interrogation where smart characters assume the worst in her. Felt like a waste of page time in parts. She is valuable in a boots on the ground sense where it's clear the republic aint all great, I just wanted more scenes like when she's talking with Pax about the realities of new Red life, or her flipping Ephraim's mentality. I think that's a stronger thread. Speaking of I liked Ephraim, he is awful don't get me wrong but I have faith Pierce is taking him in a good direction and we see embers of that at the end of this book. The narrator was much stronger for him giving this blue collar voice, he's basically Trig from Morning Star but made a full character with a bunch of fun dialogue. He's also a hyper competent badass. It's just a shame he spends so long locked in self destruction, there were a few moments that like you, enraged me, how he pushes away Holiday and Volga at every turn partly because he thinks they deserve better than him. He does horrible things though, like the literal kidnapping. His apathetic response of "Dead children are loose change in war" is a line that's still sitting in the back of my head, especially given recent conflicts in Israel, this apathy he and others have that allows such horrible atrocities to happen. But there is a turn with him, that moment when he's confronted by Lyria and Holiday and he decides to go back and rescue the kids. I loved that. Excited to see what's next for him. Lysander was a weak spot haha, unlike you guys I feel he was the weakest character in his own story, I would have preferred a POV from anyone else on the moons. Again this is partly the narrator who just delivers things so flatly. This is such a killer line: "The end of our love? No, I will love you until the sun dies. And when it does, I will love you in the darkness. Goodbye my wife" and what a way for Romulus to go out but the narrator doesn't inject personality in it, a shame when Reynolds gave Romulus real magnetism in Morning Star. Thankfully this is immediately remedied with the new guy in Dark Age who adds personality to some new characters. Sander is such a shit, I kept expecting him to do the right thing in a situation but he always chooses the worst one, guilty sure, but he still does bad things. Helping the Moon Lords get evidence for the war against the republic is unforgivable and the man is still playing catch-up with his own actions by the end of this book. He can talk about saving Cassius all he wants, but there was a man who was willing to die for higher principles like preserving peace. I don't get why Sander is so on team Moonies when they treated him and Cassius badly, ready to torture and execute them early on smh. At times he felt more like a set of eyes for us to witness other interesting characters, cause I really like the Moon Lords and I'm excited about their role to come. Darrow was another compelling character, to be expected. You guys talk so much about how Darrow is in the right this whole book, but that's major POV bias I feel. Remember this is the book where Sevro, big howling wolf dong Sevro turns on him and decides to quit, I'm not sure on the ramifications of this for Dark Age but it really hit me because they've been brothers for so long. And yeah, Darrow was wrong this book, he thought it would be simple to just rally an army to take the Ash Lord and win but it's much more complicated than that. Him going to all these lengths, making the Howlers traitors to the Republic, breaking his own family, freeing Apollonius is ON HIM. Likewise killing Wulfgar is his fault even with mitigating circumstances, he knew what could happen when he co-opted the man's soldiers and drew a razor, a sword is a sword it only does certain things. If he had surrendered Wulfgar would have lived. From the perspective of Dancers team they see a guy who disobeyed their orders, got millions of soldiers killed all while ignoring a peace offering, it's easy to see from their perspective that Darrow is losing touch from years of war and needs checks and balances. It's wild to me that you guys didn't mention Apollonius this whole video, he's awesome, way more impressive than I expected, has some of the Jackals' Psychopathy but with dick swagger and madness. There's one monologue he has about Darrow that is just Chefs Kiss all over, an unpredictable element, he is crazy over forgiving his brother, I can't wait to see more. Darrow himself has a compelling journey, Pierce had my attention from the start “Men call him father, liberator, warlord, Slave King, Reaper. But he feels a boy as he falls toward the war-torn planet, his armor red, his army vast, his heart heavy. It is the tenth year of war and the thirty-third of his life.” Killer. You are right, this is mostly a set up, "part one" book for Darrow but I trust Pierce to deliver. This is the book where we see the consequences of the original trilogy in a Dune Messiah esq. way, it ain't all it's cracked up to be, we saw parts of that in the original trilogy where Darrow didn't know what a new world should look like. Now people suffer. He's not like Paul though, this is a man still determined to make the world right, to snuff out the last of tyranny. But it's a heavy burden and he is running out of friends to carry it with him.
Just read Iron Gold and tbh even though it dragged, I liked the book. I liked that Ephraim and Lyria kinda both were two parts to a greater story shared between them, they were both victims in a way of Darrow’s direct indiscriminate action in the first three books. I did think it dragged - A LOT. Like it didn’t pick up until 60-70% of the way through. But tbh, the line level writing is very good, and I didn’t mind the set up. Especially knowing there are 3 more books after Iron Gold, and knowing Lyria and Ephraim are in the next one at least, I appreciate the set up even more. I actually felt like Lysander and Darrow were the two boring characters.
Yeah hard disagree on pretty much all of this. Iron Gold and Dark Age are better written than the first 3. Perhaps not all the way my favorites, but I feel like they do things some things a lot better.
Fair, the sequels so far I can respect that they’re going for something different than the original trilogy. Glad Iron Gold stuck for ya, I (Austin) will share your enthusiasm for Dark Age but we’ll see if Richard will join us 👀
@@2ToRamble that’s surprising that you like DA. It really seems like if one doesn’t like the foundation (Iron Gold) then the rest wouldn’t work either. I’m very curious how you rate Light Bringer, as I’m the only person on earth that thinks it’s kind of a mess
Not being able to enjoy the vibe of the red rising series is crazy to me, I love the vibe so much, the Roman futurist, poetic nobility the golds use is great. Also ephraim is the goat
It will be interesting to see how yall view light bringer. It is a fun adventure and the counterbalance between the society and republic woth differe t POV is great. But be prepared for the plot armor to be a bit thicccc. Other than that you get to see decrnt character progression in light bringer from all sides. Even Darrow, who lacks that sometimes in the series
The reason the Republic is hesitant about finishing off the Society is because when the book starts, Darrow just got a million troops killed in an iron rain
I struggled with this book. Started a lil slow, picked up, then slowed down. I devoured the first three, love Darrow and the gang. The widening of the cast threw me for a bit. I see what you guys were saying about Ephraim and Lydia. A few chapters too much, I think, but I did enjoy seeing the world expand beyond the primary original characters and how those within are effected by the previous & current actions of the previous main cast. I disagree with Rich about Lysander. To me he is the rebellious teenager who was taught all the lessons of the world he is supposed to shine in, and does everything to go against it, because something new and shiny to him is showing in the forefront. His continued failures are going to costs so much later (haven’t read Dark Age yet), to all those later. He’s the equivalent of a spoiled brat losing in a chess match he doesn’t even know is being played.
I read the entire trilogy in the last month. Then I read this book and had to stop halfway through. I liked the new characters (I would've chosen another POV). For me, the main issue was just the teardown of Darrow. I think that's what makes this book so hard to finish, cause gosh do I just not understand Darrow in this one. It felt like we had this whole arc in the trilogy and yes these are the consequences but dam it just feels like a different Darrow from what took so long to develop in the first three
I disagreed w a lot. But red beard guy(sorry don’t remember name) actually remembering more of book, and you guys agreeing made this video flow better and more enjoyable.
Im a bit confused with both your reactions to Darrow's character. In the morning star episode we spent quite a bit of time talking about how there were no consequences to the trauma he was put through. Couldn't a lot of the actions in this book be a result if the long term of effects of the trauma along with decisions he's made over the 10 year period? I've only finished half this episode, so apologies we if you get into this in more detail later to justify your options.
mag·nan·i·mous adjective generous or forgiving, especially toward a rival or less powerful person. Also the way they say wolfgar... OMG Also was anyone else weirded out they didn't have tongueless tongue carved back in? And why didn't they ever ask him to type his name?
I findished Irong Gold two days ago and I agree with almost all of what was said by you guys, but there is one charecter that saved it for me and the is apollonius au valii-rath, what a magnifcent charecter he is gold at it's extreme like he stole the show everytime he spoke. One thing is I felt a lot of charecters like Mustang, Victra and Kavax became dumber to service the plot a lot of characters who had more nuance in the original trilogy became one note here to service the new characters who fell flat. i think I got the wrong message from this book at the end I was like golds are intresting the other colors are borling LOL. **Spoilers** My favorite quotes from the book are: "I am Cassius Au Bellona, Son of Tiberius, Son of Julia, Morning knight. And my honor remain" “I dissected the underlying mistakes which led to my incarceration and set upon an internal odyssey to remake myself. But-and you would know this, Reaper-long is the road up out of hell! I made arrangements for supplies. I toiled twenty hours a day. I reread the books of youth with the gravity of age. I perfected my body. My mind. Planks were replaced; new banks of cannon wrought in the fires of solitude. All for the next storm. “Now I see it is upon me and I sail before you the paragon of Apollonius au Valii-Rath. And I ask one question: for what purpose have you pulled me from the deep?” "I ride to war. To glory. I ride for the head of the Ash Lord..." "I would not ride alone. So I say to you, my darkest devils, awake, arise, and reclaim your glory!"
I’ve read iron gold twice now and I gotta say the first time reading i didn’t care for it but the second I came to like it more because I think the first time I didn’t appreciate the world building that pierce goes into a bit more than the other books and also appreciated that pierce took a leap and told the story in a different way
I have to hard disagree on this. While Iron Gold is definitely not my favorite, not even close, I think it’s got such an unnecessary bad reputation. I think getting into the new characters was difficult because, after reading three books with just Darrow, all you want is more Darrow. That’s how I felt at least. When it swapped to Lyria the first time, I flipped through the book until I found the next Darrow chapter and it’s legit like 80 pages later. I was so disappointed, and I think that made it harder to connect with the new characters because I had already kind of closed myself off to them. I think Lyria’s POV does such a great job at showing the ramifications of Darrow and co.’s actions. They freed these Reds but then what? Force them to assimilate in camps where they’re no better off really? It was a really interesting evolution of the story imo. I also think the dynamic between Sevro and Darrow in this book is such a more complex, dynamic, and interesting relationship than in the original trilogy. Sorry for the long comment! I also have to say that Dark Age and Light Bringer really are amazing.
Appreciate the comment!! Totally get your perspective on it, and looks like you may have re-readnit and enjoyed it much more afterwards? Thats great to hear if so
@@2ToRamble only read it once (for the first time recently, inspired by your guys' RR video) but have thought about it a lot because I persuaded some friends to read with me so we've been talking about it. Even though I disagreed, loved listening to you guys talk about it! Excited for the Dark Age video. Fingers crossed that Rich enjoys it!
I've just read the first 3 books in 4 days. I am holding iron gold in my hand right now, untouched, fresh, crisp.... Should I pull the trigger on it???? Now I don't know, I'll wait a day and decide I guess?...
I've had a think. Maybe worth skipping through the book, reading a few chapters, getting a plot summary off wiki, getting a sense for it, reading Lysander... then on to dark age?
Definitely give the book a read - we didn’t like it, but it’s necessary to understand Dark Age and the rest of the series. Plus, there’s a great chance you’ll enjoy it more than we did
I just finished it! Please bear with me for a sec because English isn’t my first language but… man, I disagree with you guys on the Lysander chapters. Yeah his dynamic with Cassius was fun (because of Cassius) and it was interesting on the rim and all, but what a pedantic little guy. All his chapters were something like “I’ll show Cassius is wrong” [….] “ops, Cassius was right”. At some point he says “I outgrew him” and then does something magnanimously stupid. He gave me teenager Anakin Skywalker vibes, thinking he knows better than his mentors and having all that rage bottled up. At least I think he’s gonna be a more reasonable antagonist than the Jackal, who was just plain evil. I agree the others pov’s were weak too and very few thing kept me interested but I guess what kept me going was the connection I felt for those characters on the first trilogy and the promise it’s a build up for something more. Also, I’m probably boring but can’t Darrow have a break please? I was tired just from reading his pov. He should listen to Dancer, get himself some paid vacation time, go be a father for a bit!! Hahaha jk Can’t wait for the next book and next video!!
Darrow could definitely use some of that PTO lol - interesting points and I see what you mean with Lysander. To me (austin) that makes him a really compelling/interesting character (not necessarily a benevolent one) and I like the Skywalker comparison!
Ooh, I’ve been waiting for this one! SPOILERS BELOW: My bigger gripes with this book were Darrows decisions coming off as pretty wild to me and maybe even slightly out of character, and THE LYSANDER CHAPTERS. Cassius was the only thing holding those chapters together for me. I loved him in them. Maybe I would’ve loved it more if they actually went off being Guardians of the Galaxy with Pytha but unfortunately, I didn’t care for Lysander all that much in this book he came off as dull to me. Now Ephraim and Lyria, I really did like. The emotional impact of these two new characters and their backstories and how Darrow has inadvertently affected them, hit me hard. It broadens the world outside of Darrows inner circle and shows you two characters who have been shit on from all of this and theyre at their lowest of lows. And what is better than seeing someone at rock bottom claw and crawl their way back to the surface?? Bonus points for introduction of Volga (who doesn’t love Volga??) and more Kavax and Sophocles! The Telemanus family continues to be grade A content for me. All in all, it goes just above book 1 for me in terms of the series so far. Not my favorite, not the worst, certainly sets stuff up for possibly the best books of the series in my most humble opinion. Can’t wait for the Dark Age ep! Keep up the good work, boys!
Giving Iron Gold a 6 or less out of 10 is a crime. The bare minimum score I could see this getting is 7/10. The bald guy is weird, saying he wants to ditch the series after experiencing the awesomeness of the first trilogy and with the knowledge that Dark Age and Lightbringer elevate so far beyond Iron Gold's setup yet still he says he's not interested; crazy. He also said he likes Lysander...
I can speak for Richard here - he likes his “point of view” the best as did I this book but totally see why you’d enjoy the book more than we did! Also we’re both with ya, Dark Age is next level. An incredible book. Iron Gold not so much for me but I like the setup it allowed for Dark Age to be so amazing
I wasn’t around for Iron Gold when it first released, but I’m pretty sure the complaints from fans were down to the switch from first person to different POV’s. It was strange at first, but absolutely needed for the story in order to really see the world and effects of everything. I don’t agree that Lysander carried the book, but stuff during his POV was probably the best of the book for me. Still need to listen to the rest, so I’m sure I’ll disagree more. I can’t say I would agree even an ounce about this book being as bad as you both feel it is. Everyone will have different tastes of course. Edit 1 - Lyria may have been there for the world explanations or building. We have the opportunity to see that there are reds that hate Darrow and things aren’t rosy just because Darrow and The Republic have succeeded. People still have shit lives with lower colors.
@@2ToRamblelooking forward to finishing the review. I hope I’m not coming off as obnoxious or trying to argue. It’s not my intention…. Just putting my thoughts out there on some things.
@@Jmespo83 oh not at all! We just toss our opinions at the wall on the pod, expect the same from the comments. Anythings welcome, your comment especially!
Great review conversation. Iron Gold was a huge miss for me. Was a slog for me by the end. In saying that it laid the foundation for Dark Age and Light Bringer which I think are tip tier.
I'm the opposite of Austin in that I think Iron Gold was a great set-up, and then Dark Age fumbled the ball hard. I almost didn't pick up Light Bringer afterwards. But I'm glad I did, because LB might be my favorite RR book. It's either that or Morning Star.
I just finished the first trilogy and loved it all the way through. Super excited about this book. I’m a Dave!! The first 9 minutes of this video have destroyed my expectations and now I’m already disappointed going in. 😐
I think it will exceed those expectations - we were in the minority for this one, but hope we got our thoughts across well. Hope you do enjoy the book!
My biggest thing is I feel like lyria is really being looked over here , for being the bottom of the barrel what the rage of the masses looks like who have, nothing , can do nothing but are stuck with the feelings I also like her growth I won’t lie I’m suprised how much I enjoyed her parts
I actively despise this book, and Lysander is actually the worst to me. The unrepentant space racist is not a personality that I can get on board with. I have no connection at all with the character and less than 0 sympathy for any of his struggles. And then there's Darrow. That big decision that he made makes no sense given his history in the trilogy. I also think that Pierce Brown really struggled with multiple POVs. The inner thoughts of all of the characters had the same word choices, sentence structures and general vibe. The only way that you can tell a difference is when they talk about their relationships with other characters. I challenge you to take 2 sentences from any random part of the book, remove names, and then tell me who is the POV. It can't be done. The Red Rising trilogy was fun, if not deeply flawed. THIS, however, was dreadful
Phew, thought I was taking crazy pills for being bored for the majority of this book. Watched your spoiler free review of Dark Age and glad to see it improves, great vids!
Yall need to put some respect on my girl Lyria. I thought her part was great. Darrow was the hurt people hurt people and lyria shows hurt people some times refuse to ever hurt people.
First time I read it it was hard to get into, fast forward 10 re reads later, it’s ranked higher than the original trilogy, it makes sense after multiple re reads!!
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I remember Richard not liking book one because there was no consequences for Darrows rage… iron gold is showing all the consequences now
Im actually curious about Richard’s response to this one!
@@2ToRamble I am also interested
@@2ToRambleI am also interested
I am also interested. This book, i would say, is Pierce browns response to Richard's reviews.
The challenge of iron gold is that the villain is Darrow from every other perspective. Its an indictment on all the death that Darrow has caused and asks “is it worth it”. And just because a lot of questions are raised in this book doesn’t mean they won’t be answered later
and boy are they answered
To me Dancer and the Vox are the villains.
@@user-bm3ts2ql6s to Darrow absolutely. But Lysander, Lyria, and eph don’t blame dancer and the vox, they blame Darrow
I loved this book. Probably my favorite of the series. It's the first time we see the consequences of Darrow's choices and are forced to ask ourselves if we think Darrow might actually be a bad person. It's a huge step forward from the original trilogy.
Interesting - I (austin) can see that. Didnt land for me, but I think for the exact reasons you state here is why I love Dark Age so much, I just think Dark Age takes that theme and focuses on the consequences in a much better way. But hey I’m all down for the sequel books not being a carbon copy of their predecessor (even with me being a massive fan of books like RR and GS)
It's my favorite as well. Though I'm almost done with Light Bringer and it might take the cake.
its well written but it leaves much to be desired as a standalone book. Thinking of it as dark age part 1 makes it a lot stronger, but its ultimately a whole book of exposition. The pov chapters are much needed but ultimately arent well done until the later books, making the changes between characters jarring and annoying. I respect the opinion but i can actually never see this book being over a 6.5/10 as a standalone book
I thought we saw more emotion from Darrow as well as he tries to bury it. He realises that he cares more for war than his family and not for the reasons that he once did. I really enjoyed it but not for the reasons I enjoyed the other books.
💯 not the best in the saga but very very solid read.
You may have forgotten that Ephraim is not the way he is because of trig.
In fact he joins the rising due to trigs death and helps the cause as a trainer and scar hunter.
He becomes hateful after he and his team are caught by a gold they were hunting, his team was tortured in front of him. Despite the gold being caught in the act, the gold was let off due to them holding information Virginia needed.
He’s hateful as he realised even with the rising, the worst people will still get away with anything as long as they’re powerful enough which means nothing has changed which means his teams torture and trigs death was meaningless
Great point
Still doesn't make me like his character. I didn't like how Pierce was trying to make me like such an insufferable and irredeemable asshole.
What he did to Lyria in my eyes is unforgivable.
what makes you think Pierce tried to make Ephraim liked? I feel he was necessary to the story for sure.@@Lucifer_isthereal_god
@@Sagapants necessary sure. But likeable no. And much of his character was an attempt at the "likeable scoundrel" trope(which I normally love) but when he treats people like crap and destroyed my favorite new characters world when it's finally just getting good for her.
I think the thing is though, you only really find about about his experience with the Gold at the end. So through the whole book, it comes off like his motivation and is hatred is just about or at least mostly about Trigg. I think aided his characterization finding that out that he has more of a reason to keep people at arms length and to blame the new republic like Lyria but you don’t know until the last few chapters. You get a few hints but it doesn’t feel as significant as losing Trigg until he goes back there.
I agree with your takes on a lot of books, but man hard disagree on this one.
It definitely doesn't have the break neck action and pacing of the first 3 but I really appreciated the more mature and complex nature of the book. Getting to spend some more time in the world as the other POV characters and really seeing the aftermath of the 'Rising' was so fascinating to me.
I think a lot of people's disappointment in Iron Gold is because it wasn't what they wanted/expected after Morning Star (which I do kind of get). There's a very big shift in tone where it goes from the Star Wars-esque action adventure thrill ride to a darker, more complex political thriller. I love both but I can understand why some people may not.
P.S That being said Golden Sun is still my favourite book of the series
I (austin) am with ya on Golden Son! But to your point on Iron Gold, Im curious if what people said about re-reading it would improve my reception of it - Im just upset I committed a cardinal sin and critiqued Pierce Brown. Im ashamed 🥸
I can see appreciating the groundwork that the book does more on a re-read, but I think your issues with the plot and characters are still going to be there (which is valid.) I think one of the biggest differences in this sequel series is that not all of the characters you follow are liable. Like Ephraim for instance, for the most part sucks as a person and Lysander is Lysander. However, that doesn't mean that they're "bad" characters it's such that they're coming from a place you don't agree with and they are actively working against Darrow who we have been with for 3 books and love. I really enjoyed Lysanders POV because it's so fascinating seeing basically the anti-Darrow and seeing how he despises Darrow for the things he's done but then goes and does stuff that's just as bad if not worse.
Likeable*
@@sambarker7044 agreed Lysander was the best here and you’re totally right, I look at characters the same. They don’t need to be ‘likable’ - just need to not be apathetic toward them and understand them deeply enough so that their motivations/decisions/potential future character arc really hits home, or in the case of antagonists you deeply understand their decisions and what makes them evil which is just as fascinating
This! Very aptly said my Goodman
Not even a courtesy shout out to Cassius and how epic that entire arena sequence was, or the dialogue with Lysander about his father prior to the trial by combat?! One of the best parts of the book for me
Cassius’ Arena part of the story was pure cinema
Im going go start keeping a tally of everytime Austin mispronounces a characters name 😂
I realize now I said Wulfgar wrong like 100x this episode lol
I read the saga when the first five books were already released and I would not like it to end at Morning Star. The story was just not complete, it would have been a dissapointing ending. Iron Gold was fantastic, and Dark Age is one of my favourite books ever
It would have been a far too convenient happy ending. I wouldn’t be able to buy that life for Darrow and the Republic just sail into the sunset and have a happily ever after.
Agreed Morning Star’s ending didnt do it for me (Austin) and am very glad that Dark Age was fantastic! Waiting on Rich to read it so we can discuss
I re-read every Red Rising book before Light Bringer and Iron Gold was the biggest surprise and difference I enjoyed it a lot more. Darrow's chapter's are way less frustrating and make more sense in retrospect after reading Dark Age. The foreshadowing and set up is excellent and many of your complaints are paid off in Dark Age. I loved Lyria's POV from her very first chapter and was surprised to realise most of the fandom didn't like her. Her chapters in Dark Age are incredible! I have to agree about Ephraim, he was someone who took a long time to grow on me but won me over in the end and Lysanders chapters in all three sequel books are just consistently compelling!
“Sometimes the juice is worth the squeeze and this was a hard lemon to squeeze” HAHA that’s the perfect representation of Iron Gold. I’ve heard a re read after DA/LB makes Iron Gold a lot better
Exact things we heard too!
I haven't had a chance to watch your original trilogy reviews yet (will be watching them soon) but as someone who loves the series as a whole and who ranks IG as my second favourite book (DA>IG>GS>LB=MS>RR) I understand the criticisms of Iron Gold.
Like most people I found my first read of Iron Gold a bit slow, the switch to 4 PoVs and the darkening of tone combined with the slower pace makes it a very different book to get into. The sequel series as a whole is a much slower political drama and even then Iron Gold is essentially an extended prologue for Dark Age. One of the reason people generally appreciate IG more on a re-read is because the entire book is essentially setting up the character and plot conflicts that drive the new series, moreover the story becomes far more Grey - Darrow especially is no longer the unquestioned hero of the series (especially hammered home by the addition of extra PoVs) . It establishes the sides of the conflict and the stakes going forward and almost everything set up in Iron Gold pays off in Dark Age/Lightbringer.
When it comes to character work I'm a constant defender of Darrow in this book - gone is the idealistic revolutionary of the first trilogy (something that is generally easy to identify with as in the first Trilogy Darrow is at heart a heroic character) in his place we have a tired, angry, jaded warlord who will do anything to win which is inherently a harder character for most people to connect with. When it comes to the other PoVs I agree that Lysander is by far the strongest (discounting Darrow) and continues to be a fascinating PoV throughout Dark Age and Lightbringer.
Personally I found the additions of Ephraim and Lyria difficult to get into but once I got deeper into their story lines I have really come to enjoy them - they both provide things that neither Darrow (in both the first trilogy and the sequels) nor Lysander's PoVs do - Lyria provides a truly red view of the world and we get to see what life is like as a virtually powerless figure in the story (provides a "people's history" view of the story) and gives us great insight into the PoV of the masses that Darrow is trying to "save" (including giving a fascinating view on the consequences of Darrow's actions - something that is a key part of the sequels in general). Ephraim on the other hand is again an interesting character as we get to see the plot from the PoV of an extremely effective non-gold (or to a lesser degree Red) actor in the story (something missing in the first trilogy). We also get to see the grimy underside of life in the Red Rising universe, we see what people do when they truly don't care about the main plot of the story and are only involved in the plot to further their own personal gains.
I generally understand people who struggle with Iron Gold but IMO its one of the strongest books in the series - especially when viewed retroactively once finishing Dark Age as almost everything set up is payed off to near perfection. In IG Darrow is a broken man struggling to do what he thinks is right and will do virtually anything to secure the outcome he wants (the main question of Darrow's story in IG/DA is do the ends justify the means?), Lysander provides a younger more idealistic (closer to the Darrow of the first trilogy - especially book 1) PoV but from someone naturally positioned to ideologically oppose Darrow. Lyria provides a glimpse into the life of the average people just trying to live their lives amongst the cataclysmic events of the series and being virtually helpless to affect their own fate. Ephraim is almost the opposite of Lyria - he has little power on a grand scale but through will and skill is able to play a massive role in the story and provides a fascinating glimpse into the more subtle conflicts of the series (and of humanity, he will do essentially anything to further his own agenda - specifically to get rich and not give a damn).
Sorry for the wall of text and thanks for reading my rant lmao
Love the rant - great thoughts! 🫡 definitely understand you on all points
You said it all ! I feel the same way !
Iron Gold brings much of the complexity that the original trilogy lacked
More complex and gets more into the world for sure. You read Lightbringer yet? Im hearing amazing things
@@2ToRamble I finished it a couple of days ago…. Wow…. There’s no way Austin will not LOVE it.
@@LeonC0704 cant wait 😁
In order from best to worst, it's basically LB>DA>GS>MS>IG>RR. I think Lightbringer and Dark Age are interchangeable based on your tastes.
The point is that Iron Gold is an intro in the same sense that Red Rising is.
Damn I cant wait to read LB. It’s on so many people’s top!
@2ToRamble It has its issues and I think Dark Age is technically the better book, but Light Bringer is a bit of a return to form and is a more enjoyable read.
I just finished Iron Gold, so I have not read Dark Age or Lightbringer but I loved this book. probably my second favorite of the series so far. Getting to see how the other POV's think of Darrow as the villain was incredible. Lysander was easily my favorite POV of the book, and Lyria and Ephraim's chapters got better with each chapter. I also don't believe Cassius is dead since we do not see him die on page. All in all I loved this book and am super excited to start Dark Age!
Same spot as you I believe he will come back (I hope)
“War crimes can be cool, too.” Great quote!
I think due to the four POVs there just wasnt the same speed and action of the first three because we just got the start (part 1) of the story (like austin said). Hoping that dark age will provide the part two and three pacing that we all fell in love with.
Wow can't wait to hear your take on this since I really enjoyed reading IG and it gets better every single time I listen to it.
Curious what you think after watching!
I’ve been reading this book for 3-4 months and it isn’t very good. So seeing your spoiler free review makes me happy. I love the OG trilogy and I’m excited for Dark Ages and LightBringer.
Iron Gold walks so Dark Age and Lightbringer can sprint. My least favorite of the new books but still great
Iron golden crawls for me lol
I loved this book, and it's funny because what you didn't like about the lack of choice Darrow has is exactly something that I love here and that I found really interesting. Because all of the main characters are cornered, and you know it's not the perfect choice but there is no good choice, just hard ones (which is the theme of IG and DA really) so you're just frustrated like the characters ! I was worried with the begining of your video that you would say Darrow made the wrong choice (like must people do for some reason !) and I'm so glad you didn't ! As for the passiveness : again it was an interesting change for me, he's tired, he's been at it for ten years and everyone who has had his back until then is turning on him now so it made sense for me that he would be hesitating and not his confident self.
Nooooooooooooooo. I waffle between Iron Gold and Golden Son as my favorites of the series... until Light Bringer, it's up there. I loved getting the new POV's. All of them are great as perspectives and Eph and Lyria are actually great characters. Lysander can fly into the sun as far as I'm concerned.
I wasn't a really a Lysander hater until later, but WHAT THE ACTUAL F???! LYSANDER IS CARRYING THIS WHOLE BOOK??? I don't understand you at all, Rich. haha
Darrow did not have to kill Wulfgar! He could have obeyed the commands he was given. Saying he was right, doesn't justify his actions and I wouldn't agree that he was 100% right. How he went about it wasn't right and he had to live with the consequences of his decisions.
Fair point! Ill let Rich respond to the Lysander comment, but to Wulfgar I (austin) was more focused on the fact that Darrow didn’t intentionally kill him. It made the catalyst of the story more passive and gave Darrow an out whereas in Red Rising Darrow killing Julian was a choice and I could emphathize with Cassius’ anger and was way more invested in the consquences of Darrows decision and the moral qualms it brought (hiding truth from Cassius for his own personal gain, etc) which was just incredibly tense, suspenseful, and made Darrow a truly flawed person. In Iron Gold Darrow didn’t ever mean to kill Wulfgar - Sevros stun fist put Wulfgar in the trajectory of Darrow’s blade. It gave Darrow an “out” to where I wasn’t compelled by the passive action rather than the more active one where maybe he killed Wulfgar in a moment of rage and frustration. Darrow is never really “wrong” here because it was a mistake and there isnt any tension, suspense, or interesting character change he must go through or difficult moral qualms he must face because of this. I realize that we’re reading a different Darrow at this point, but I tend to really oppose character decisions that have things happen to them rather than them make actions that help me relate to their personality and therefore the consequences and character arc is more interesting for me. Hope I explained that right, Im definitely in the minority on this one but that was just one of my problems with the book but Pierce Brown is still the man, loved Dark Age and going to read Lightbringer soon!
@@2ToRamble yeah I can see your point. But I would still place the blame for Wulfar's death on Darrow since he was the reason everyone was fighting. He dealt the blow by accident, but he also was the cause. Darrow has become a Warlord and he's starting to see that break down his relationships. Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed Dark Age better. Hopefully Light Bringer hits even harder. In many ways, it is a return to form, I think.
I just finished this and wow . It’s honestly probably my favorite so far . I understand the complaints on Ephriam but I didn’t hate him. I found it interesting how you didn’t like lyria at all and said you felt more from eo because I actually thought lyrias story gripped me to her way quicker then anyone else did. I loved her . As for victra I didn’t love what she was doing in the end it was pretty weird . Overall I think it’s browns best book so far next to golden sun
Oo interesting perspective- did you love Darrow just as much as well in this book?
I have to say I’m actually surprised by Richard’s rating. Remembering back to his complaints about the original trilogy the major themes were that we didn’t really see other color’s perspectives, didn’t get to see Darrow suffer the consequences of his choices, some of the dialogue was a bit cheesy. I was thinking that some of those issues he had were resolved in IG, so I’m surprised that none of that really landed!
Very good points. I (Richard) think that iron gold had some good elements, but the execution did not interest me. I am surprised myself.
I disagree with you about the political situation at the beginning of the book. It’s not so simple. To say that Venus is the last planet they just have to finish off is not true. First both Mars and Mercury are incredibly unstable. On Mercury the populace was indoctrinated against the Republic which made it so easy for Atalantia to win Mercury back. You also have to consider how the planets move. Mercury is the (relatively) closest planet to Earth. This is something Pierce had to consider while writing these books and actually did. Venus is a far greater security risk especially due to threat the Rim might or might not be. This is an argument made by Dancer. And Darrow was proven wrong. He made the wrong decision.
I really liked this installment. But I agree about the POVs. Both Lydia and Ephraim are characters I love but they had to grow on me and that took time. It is an 8 out of 10 for me but I think that it is the second “worst” book in the series (Red Rising is only average tbh).
Anyway, love to you guys. Your discussions about books are a lot of fun.
Terry Pratchett is great. Brandon Sanderson is ‘overrated’. The Wheel of Time is… let’s just say that I agree with Austin on that one.
Appreciate ya listening! I hope Rich sees this comment to respond to the political situation but I hope he doesn’t read the end where you made that Wheel of Time comment (pshh thank you for the VALIDATION!). Cheers
It maybe my hindsight overriding my memory because after getting caught up with i cant see this second series as anything but perfect. Though irongold and darkage kinda blend into one book in my memory. I believe those other perspectives you dont enjoy really pay off later.
Dark Age - Ephraim definitely improved big time gotta agree with you there
I honestly love this book far more than the original trilogy. It focuses on the consequences of Darrow being a mass murderer as well as focusing more on slow burn world building which I'm always a sucker for in sci-fi. I also really enjoyed the new POV characters as they're all against Darrow. It was a very interesting perspective shift to see the main protagonist of the trilogy being viewed as the antagonist (which I've always kinda thought he was anyways)
I loved this book each perspective made me cry and laugh and I a had a bloody good time
One change I noticed about Darrow this go around was the effect not just his choices made on him but also what being held captive by the Jackal did to him. I was looking for that in Morning Star after being held in a stone box for 9mons but didn’t see it. While I was sad, he did seem subdued from his normal Darrow self, I saw that his actions were driven from his trauma. He couldn’t be held captive again. He couldn’t let his enemies put him in a position where he’d lose everything again. I can at least appreciate that addition to his character because that experience is not something you walk away from. I do agree with Austin too about this being Darrow at the beginning of a book. He felt in a similar spot at the beginning of Golden Son before he turned everything around. I don’t mind the other perspectives too much, but it left less time for Pierce Brown’s usual writing strategy.
Just found your guys discussion videos on the series - it's my absolute favourite book series so it's been fun bingeing your stuff today! Great discussions, great viewpoints - I'll stay tuned for Dark Age and Light Bringer soon for sure!
A few thoughts about Iron Gold - I absolutely felt the same way the first time I read the book. This one was a let down for sure and I was really wondering why it wasn't a whole book (and trilogy) of Lysander, who was by far the most compelling the first time I read it.
I've now read Iron Gold four times (as a part of series re-reads...I like this series A LOT) and what changed my perspective was when I read the book after hearing the comment that each of the other three POV characters (aside from Darrow) are characters that Darrow has damaged (directly or indirectly) through his actions...and then it clicked. Iron Gold is an exploration by Pierce Brown of two things: his world and the consequences of Darrow's actions. When I read the book through that lens you start to see what Brown was trying to accomplish and my appreciation of the book rose a lot (even if it still is the weakest entry in my opinion). This especially applies to the question you guys had of "why is Lyria here?" She's absolutely Pierce's exploration of the world Darrow has created.
I also certainly found it to be true that Dark Age (my favourite book in the series) couldn't be what it is without the setup in Iron Gold. It is a book that lays the foundation for later events rather than containing much of those events and it suffers for that, but the rest of the series is all the better for it.
Really well said!
Wonderfully put! I feel the same. I was very annoyed with Lyria, wondering why her point of view existed. Through Dark Age and Lightbringer, I grew admiration for her. Iron Gold suffers as a stand alone but does a great job of laying groundwork for the next books.
TLDR; Iron Gold had to crawl for Dark Age and Lightbringer to run.
Me personally, I liked Ephraim's POV. His anger, his depression, his addiction, and his behavior was so similar to things I've witnessed in myself and others. I think the reason people might not like Ephraim is because his feelings and thoughts are so close to the ugliness in each of us, and until you look inside yourself and truly realize your nature isn't to be good, you won't understansd Ephraim. His behavior of lashing out at others when angry was very relatable because I've been there.
Ephraim and Lyria's hatred of the Republic is also a perspective I enjoyed. I think the reason I liked the political intrigue in this book so much is because of how relatable it is. The bullshit in the Republic = the bullshit in our current political leadership. I think Iron Gold was an interesting commentary on how much shit really goes on in our political system (as is the way with politics).
I loved the scene when Lyria was experiencing a flawed justice system with her near-arrest and then later interrogation with Theodora and Niobe. It's exactly like what we see today.
I also liked Darrow's pov in this book. His reluctant actions in this book are completely understandable because he's a tired parent who misses his kid. He isn't the aggressive, youthful warmonger he was when he was younger, so it took him more time before he came to his breaking point in this book.
Another character I really liked was Romulus and his ending was heartbreaking. He was honestly one of the only pure characters in the series and I had nothing but respect for him. His actions made sense and he loved his people.
Appreciate the thoughts! Very much with you on Romulus - his story and position was well done. And I can see how you enjoyed the other Povs, very fair - what’d you think of Lysander this book?
@2ToRamble I loved the insight on the Rim world that Lysander's pov gave. I liked reading from his perspective because of how damn intelligent he is. It's so different from every other pov, save the fact that he hates Darrow, like Ephraim and Lyria. And rightfully so because Darrow destroyed his entire world. I'm interested to see where he will go in Dark Age!
One of the few time I disagree with the guys here. Iron Gold is far from a perfect book but I think it really shows the growth of Pierce Brown as a writer. I went into this seeing it as it’s own separate entity from the first three. It shows how you can win all the battles and still have a long drawn out war. It’s setting up the rest of the sequel series and I can’t wait for Darrow to spank Lysander!
My (austin) favorite part I can say about Iron Gold is it did prime Dark Age to get straight to it because of the set up from Iron Gold
I loved this book so much. So glad I decided to continue with the second trilogy
Iron Gold has the aftermath and consequences Autsin was looking for in the review of Morning Star!
Oo interesting point - I have a response to this but it’s nearing 2am. I hope to remember to comment back on this tomorrow or in the next few days when I get a chance! Please remind me if I totally drop the ball on this - great comment bc it’ll rake me a solid half a page to explain why I felt this way. Cheers!
@@2ToRambleRIP....
Can’t wait to see how your perceptions of Lysander evolve throughout the trilogy
Eo was the main character at the start of book 1, Lyria's family was a group of NPC'S. As the reader we lost someone with Darrow when Eo died, with Lyria's family we lost nothing.
True but that still doesn’t mean you can’t empathize with the loss and loneliness she experiences. I loved lyrics POV. Yes we didn’t know the players of her pain, but that doesn’t mean her drive was unwarranted
00:51 I think the word Richard was looking for is 'magnanimous'
It sounded like Magnanimous is the word you were looking for but the incorrect word for sure
I Finally made it to iron gold 😅🎉
I get it! I almost quit the series because I just did not click with Iron Gold! I didn’t like Eph and Lyria the first time. Their POVs were so random. I liked Lysander especially with Cassius.
BUT….Dark Age! Man does that book enhance everything. Ephraim went from someone whose chapters I wanted to skip to being my favorite! I bet you guys will love it!
🤝🤝
Wait no shit? Pierce actually makes him a good character in Dark Age? I sure hope so I wanted to have him hurled from that skyscraper with Cyra in Iron Gold.
@@Lucifer_isthereal_god yeah I couldn’t stand Ephraim in IG. Come Dark Age I was rooting for him the whole time!
Iron Gold alone is better than the entirety of the original trilogy. Also I think this the first time I heard the sentence "Lysannder îs carrying this whole book"
We’re definitely the odd ones out here 👀! Didnt realize this book was that loved. Rich and I suck but at least we suck together on this one, usually it’s just me 🥸
@@2ToRamble I will always appreciate honest reviews 👍👍👍👍
@@2ToRambleyou're not in the minority, it's a book that holds up far better on rereads, but very few people liked it their first time.
@@niallcarrick6456 I wouldn't say very few people liked it their first time. Actually, most people did like it, but just didn't think it was as good as, say, Golden Son and Morning Star because it wasn't as action packed.
What? It’s by far the weakest book of the whole series
I really had to trudge through this book, I came here and glad I got some validation haha
Damn, Richard and Austin double L this video.
I thought for sure Richard would like the second series more than the original trilogy
It makes me uncomfortable how much Richard likes Lysander
Lol we’ll see how he views Lysander as the series continues
I loved it! Finished it in 3 days. For me the best parts were not the action, but the slow burn of the political side of Mustang running the Republic and what it entails, as well as the scheming and plotting of the Syndicate
My favourite scene was Dancer talking to the Senators at the start. It read to me like a scene out of History text book come to life (which I love cos I am a Rome fanboy)
I think why this book wasn’t a lot of people’s favourite is because it takes a more mature, slow pace looking at the real world consequences of regime change, and how unstable and consequential even the most well intentioned deeds truely are (Darrow a walking case study in that respect)
I won't defend Iron Gold, it wasn't my favourite and Lyria and Ephram weren't the strongest characters. So just a more objective observation about Darrow - He did lie outright about the offer of peace from the Ash Lord, and he did ignore the will of the people over the invasion of Mercury. It's perfectly reasonable the Vox did not want an invasion of Mercury because of the likely loss of life because that's exactly what happened. The fact that Darrow is right is meaningless, his actions pit him against the republic and his former father figure, that's the key. I won't say more because there are things happening that are spoilers for later books. Again, won't defend Iron Gold but I think you guys missed the mark criticising this aspect of the book.
Fair point! Ill let Rich respond if he sees this as he had a lot to say on the political aspect of attacking Mercury
I think lyria was there because darrow was on the run. It was lyria that gave us chapters to hear Mustang and what's going on in luna
I FINALLY finished Iron Gold, and I gotta say, I am surprised by your takes. I really wish i could debate with you guys and see why you feel how you do, because both of you disliking the story made it very linear in my opinion.
The biggest thing I will agree on is that this book was not a page turner in the same way that Golden Son was. I mean, I basically couldn't put Golden Son down and had trouble breathing while reading it...
But then my opinion diverges from yours. I really thought this was a good book. I think I have three main points:
1. The story cannot have the same breakneck speeds as the first three books because after a 10 year war we are dealing with the consequences.
2. Darrow also cannot be the same reckless destroyer, because he is shackled by the society he helped create. I do not see this as Darrow or Virginia being nutered. I see it as them trying to build, unlike books 1-3 where Darrow was only destroying a bad system. Now, if he acts with the same destruction, he undermines the system he faught for.
3. I do like ALL characters presented, specifically because they mirror each other. The easiest mirrors are Darrow and Lysander, being similar characters that were born on complete opposite ends of power, and their choices reflect their stance while both believing they are doing what is best for society. Lyria and Ephraim also reflect each other as individuals who believe the republic has failed them, but choose to act out in different ways.
Overall I love your videos and cant wait to finish Dark Age because... because its a Red Rising novel. But also because I can watch your review after. 👍
I think we’ll agree on Dark Age - next book is a masterpiece! And thanks for the thoughts 🤝
Agree this is my least favorite as well. The way Lyria's camp is destroyed is typical Pierce Brown. The difference between Eo is that we found out that she waited for Darrow to come to age. She had agency through her conviction of ideas. Ultimately had a deeply personal moment with Darrow before her defiance lead to her death. Juxtaposed to Darrow's thoughts of compliance within the society and role in a family. Lyria instead provides background for new Red plight. Alas, no personal emotional setup to her situation. Where Darrow wanted a family and to be father in the 1st book to sacrificing it for responsibility in the following trilogy.
Well said!
@@2ToRamble Love the work you guys do.
@@carlosandino5524 👊👊 appreciate it thanks for giving us the time
I agree that the Lysander parts carried the book. It was the most interesting. I actually liked Ephraim chapters. He not a symptomatic caracter. Agree on that to much was made of his loss. Actually Holiday explains it better that he felt betrayed by Mustang. That is understandable. Lyria was hard work to read. It should have been cut down. Also Darrows character evolves away from the red. He sends millions to their deaths an acts like Appolonius and the other gold psychopaths. It will be interesting to ses how if Lysander and Darrow evolve in contrast to each other.
I believe “magnanimous” was the word you were looking for, Superior Co-Host Richard.
Bit of a book here, sorry! But, I just finished Iron Gold and have been sitting with it for about an hour, trying to figure out how I feel about it. I couldn't get my hands on a physical copy, so I had to do the audio book, and Lysander's narrator did a good job UNTIL it got to what should have been exciting or emotional moments. His cadence and tone didn't change, so they sounded exactly like all the mundane moments which made him feel flatter than he probably would have, had I read it.
I thought it was funny you couldn't remember Romulus' name or that of his family, bc I was trying to remember who Lysander and Cassius spent all that time with, and all I could remember was Romulus and Dio. No idea what their daughter's name was that Lysander liked. Not sure why they needed to spend SO much of the book there.
Surpsingly, I liked Lyria's character the best of all the four POVs, probably in no small part due to the wonderful narrator who really conveyed ALL the emotions so well. She also had a story that made sense. She had a journey you could follow, with a beginning, middle, and end. Which, isn't saying much, actually. Completly agree with Richard that she didn't feel deserving of so much page time. Even as someone who got swept up in something, she seemed very . . . one dimensional.
Ephraim I never cared about because I never knew what his goal was. All we knew about him was that he really loved Trigg. His parts kept me asking "what's the point?" Then, when we finally saw it in Part 3, I think it was, I was past the point of caring.
I LOVED Sevro, Victra, and Electra! They were the only ones that had parts I ever got emotional about. As a mother, I viscerally understood Victra and loved her for her fire. And getting to see what a badass Electra is? Oh, I'm looking forward to seeing more from her! She's a little hellfire! ❤ And, poor, loyal Sevro! I love him so much and my heart hurts for him.
As to Darrow...what? Good to see he FINALLY mentions having some PTSD, but WTH was that ending? I am so mad at Pierce Brown! What do you mean Darrow isn't gonna go find his kid? Why isn't he like Victra -- moving heaven and earth and going THROUGH whoever he's gotta go through to get his son? And, what about Mustang? He's just going to throw his hands up and say, "eh, she can handle it as well as I could." WHAT?!? Brown completley broke Darrow's character there. He most certainly wasn't a "fired arrow" in this book. His character was off in this book. I liked seeing how he handled being between a rock and a hard place, but his actions at the end, that isn't the Darrow I know.
Darrow not being Darrow in Morning Star after a year of torture, sure, THAT made sense. But Darrow not going after his son? No way.
Not sure if that is a character issue, or more of a plot issue, bc I know he is setting up the next book and he needs Darrow going off in another direction, but, this wasn't the way to do it. So, I think that's a plot issue, then. The book I had to trudge through falls apart completely for me right there in the last few pages.
So dissapointing. This one was absolutely a 2.5 overall for me (in your new rating system).
Appreciate the thorough review!! With new rating system I (austin) gave it a 2 star, we arent too far off! Dark Age returns to peak Red Rising in my opinion, I hope you love it as much as I did
I can’t help but feel like you guys are reviewing this book through a strange lens.
A big part being the “there is only one planet left” part. I think you guys are forgetting about The Rim, it’s been 10 years, their biggest enemy asks for peace. Look at this from the point of view of the people, not the warmongers that we see the story through.
Of course the people want peace, they don’t understand war. They created a society of “demokracy”. If your country was telling you over and over “we’re just about to beat *insert country* let’s just lose another couple million people! Think of the future!” Would you serve your family up to them on a silver platter with peace talks on the table?
A lot of your points I really don’t understand on this one guys
I appreciate the spoiler-free section. I am a few pages in to Iron Gold and, coming off Morming Star feeling disappointed I wasn't as excited about it as I was for the first two (Golden Son is my fav so far), I was feeling wary of Book 4. I'm definitely the "Dave" you were speaking to! 😄 I am glad to know I should manage my expectations going in, bc the next one will be better. 😊
Also, you GOTTA keep the allteration of Richard's Rambler Rating! It's perfect! 😄
Great podcast, I like hearing your opinions even if I agree with half of them haha. Lyria was an underwhelming character, as an audiobooker that was partly her narrator being weak, right accent but the inflections for scenes were kinda whiney. Maybe I'd be more positive on text, her story is just small and she doesn't have much power, I would have much preferred seeing her plot from Mustang, Victra or a Telemanus perspective.
She is also a magnet for danger, to the point of being over the top, like she escapes the kidnapping only to immediately run into a bunch of Reds who want to do horrible things to her, really? then dealing with an interrogation where smart characters assume the worst in her. Felt like a waste of page time in parts. She is valuable in a boots on the ground sense where it's clear the republic aint all great, I just wanted more scenes like when she's talking with Pax about the realities of new Red life, or her flipping Ephraim's mentality. I think that's a stronger thread.
Speaking of I liked Ephraim, he is awful don't get me wrong but I have faith Pierce is taking him in a good direction and we see embers of that at the end of this book. The narrator was much stronger for him giving this blue collar voice, he's basically Trig from Morning Star but made a full character with a bunch of fun dialogue. He's also a hyper competent badass. It's just a shame he spends so long locked in self destruction, there were a few moments that like you, enraged me, how he pushes away Holiday and Volga at every turn partly because he thinks they deserve better than him. He does horrible things though, like the literal kidnapping.
His apathetic response of "Dead children are loose change in war" is a line that's still sitting in the back of my head, especially given recent conflicts in Israel, this apathy he and others have that allows such horrible atrocities to happen. But there is a turn with him, that moment when he's confronted by Lyria and Holiday and he decides to go back and rescue the kids. I loved that. Excited to see what's next for him.
Lysander was a weak spot haha, unlike you guys I feel he was the weakest character in his own story, I would have preferred a POV from anyone else on the moons. Again this is partly the narrator who just delivers things so flatly. This is such a killer line: "The end of our love? No, I will love you until the sun dies. And when it does, I will love you in the darkness. Goodbye my wife" and what a way for Romulus to go out but the narrator doesn't inject personality in it, a shame when Reynolds gave Romulus real magnetism in Morning Star.
Thankfully this is immediately remedied with the new guy in Dark Age who adds personality to some new characters. Sander is such a shit, I kept expecting him to do the right thing in a situation but he always chooses the worst one, guilty sure, but he still does bad things. Helping the Moon Lords get evidence for the war against the republic is unforgivable and the man is still playing catch-up with his own actions by the end of this book. He can talk about saving Cassius all he wants, but there was a man who was willing to die for higher principles like preserving peace. I don't get why Sander is so on team Moonies when they treated him and Cassius badly, ready to torture and execute them early on smh. At times he felt more like a set of eyes for us to witness other interesting characters, cause I really like the Moon Lords and I'm excited about their role to come.
Darrow was another compelling character, to be expected. You guys talk so much about how Darrow is in the right this whole book, but that's major POV bias I feel. Remember this is the book where Sevro, big howling wolf dong Sevro turns on him and decides to quit, I'm not sure on the ramifications of this for Dark Age but it really hit me because they've been brothers for so long. And yeah, Darrow was wrong this book, he thought it would be simple to just rally an army to take the Ash Lord and win but it's much more complicated than that. Him going to all these lengths, making the Howlers traitors to the Republic, breaking his own family, freeing Apollonius is ON HIM. Likewise killing Wulfgar is his fault even with mitigating circumstances, he knew what could happen when he co-opted the man's soldiers and drew a razor, a sword is a sword it only does certain things. If he had surrendered Wulfgar would have lived. From the perspective of Dancers team they see a guy who disobeyed their orders, got millions of soldiers killed all while ignoring a peace offering, it's easy to see from their perspective that Darrow is losing touch from years of war and needs checks and balances.
It's wild to me that you guys didn't mention Apollonius this whole video, he's awesome, way more impressive than I expected, has some of the Jackals' Psychopathy but with dick swagger and madness. There's one monologue he has about Darrow that is just Chefs Kiss all over, an unpredictable element, he is crazy over forgiving his brother, I can't wait to see more. Darrow himself has a compelling journey, Pierce had my attention from the start “Men call him father, liberator, warlord, Slave King, Reaper. But he feels a boy as he falls toward the war-torn planet, his armor red, his army vast, his heart heavy. It is the tenth year of war and the thirty-third of his life.”
Killer. You are right, this is mostly a set up, "part one" book for Darrow but I trust Pierce to deliver. This is the book where we see the consequences of the original trilogy in a Dune Messiah esq. way, it ain't all it's cracked up to be, we saw parts of that in the original trilogy where Darrow didn't know what a new world should look like. Now people suffer. He's not like Paul though, this is a man still determined to make the world right, to snuff out the last of tyranny. But it's a heavy burden and he is running out of friends to carry it with him.
Just read Iron Gold and tbh even though it dragged, I liked the book.
I liked that Ephraim and Lyria kinda both were two parts to a greater story shared between them, they were both victims in a way of Darrow’s direct indiscriminate action in the first three books. I did think it dragged - A LOT. Like it didn’t pick up until 60-70% of the way through. But tbh, the line level writing is very good, and I didn’t mind the set up. Especially knowing there are 3 more books after Iron Gold, and knowing Lyria and Ephraim are in the next one at least, I appreciate the set up even more.
I actually felt like Lysander and Darrow were the two boring characters.
Fair!
Yeah hard disagree on pretty much all of this.
Iron Gold and Dark Age are better written than the first 3. Perhaps not all the way my favorites, but I feel like they do things some things a lot better.
Fair, the sequels so far I can respect that they’re going for something different than the original trilogy. Glad Iron Gold stuck for ya, I (Austin) will share your enthusiasm for Dark Age but we’ll see if Richard will join us 👀
@@2ToRamble that’s surprising that you like DA. It really seems like if one doesn’t like the foundation (Iron Gold) then the rest wouldn’t work either. I’m very curious how you rate Light Bringer, as I’m the only person on earth that thinks it’s kind of a mess
@@Ghostlyape123 oo that is the first Im hearing this about Lightbringer. Looking forward to the read to see
The word you’re looking for is decisive
What did you think about Apollonius ??? He's my favorite new villain so gooood !
He has such a great character voice - cant believe we forgot to mention him!
Not being able to enjoy the vibe of the red rising series is crazy to me, I love the vibe so much, the Roman futurist, poetic nobility the golds use is great. Also ephraim is the goat
It will be interesting to see how yall view light bringer. It is a fun adventure and the counterbalance between the society and republic woth differe t POV is great. But be prepared for the plot armor to be a bit thicccc. Other than that you get to see decrnt character progression in light bringer from all sides. Even Darrow, who lacks that sometimes in the series
I really didn’t think Iron Gold was that bad. I give it 6.9/10
Im interested to hear the follow up after Dark Age. I feel like my appreciation for Iron Gold increased as the series continued as well.
The reason the Republic is hesitant about finishing off the Society is because when the book starts, Darrow just got a million troops killed in an iron rain
It would've helped the book if we had seen some of that, to set the scene.
Iron Gold was Amazing being be way to critical I definitely loved how it enhanced the story characters and the world itself
Thats fair!
I struggled with this book. Started a lil slow, picked up, then slowed down. I devoured the first three, love Darrow and the gang. The widening of the cast threw me for a bit. I see what you guys were saying about Ephraim and Lydia. A few chapters too much, I think, but I did enjoy seeing the world expand beyond the primary original characters and how those within are effected by the previous & current actions of the previous main cast. I disagree with Rich about Lysander. To me he is the rebellious teenager who was taught all the lessons of the world he is supposed to shine in, and does everything to go against it, because something new and shiny to him is showing in the forefront. His continued failures are going to costs so much later (haven’t read Dark Age yet), to all those later. He’s the equivalent of a spoiled brat losing in a chess match he doesn’t even know is being played.
Curious what Rich thinks about this! Appreciate the thoughts
Ephraim became my favorite side character in this saga. Can't believe IG didn't land for you both but I'm glad DA and LB worked better.
I read the entire trilogy in the last month. Then I read this book and had to stop halfway through. I liked the new characters (I would've chosen another POV). For me, the main issue was just the teardown of Darrow. I think that's what makes this book so hard to finish, cause gosh do I just not understand Darrow in this one. It felt like we had this whole arc in the trilogy and yes these are the consequences but dam it just feels like a different Darrow from what took so long to develop in the first three
Yea the 10 year time difference definitely creates a different character - some loved it, but totally get your point
I disagreed w a lot. But red beard guy(sorry don’t remember name) actually remembering more of book, and you guys agreeing made this video flow better and more enjoyable.
Im a bit confused with both your reactions to Darrow's character. In the morning star episode we spent quite a bit of time talking about how there were no consequences to the trauma he was put through. Couldn't a lot of the actions in this book be a result if the long term of effects of the trauma along with decisions he's made over the 10 year period?
I've only finished half this episode, so apologies we if you get into this in more detail later to justify your options.
Did we get to this later in the episode? Sorry if not, I can try to explain!
I disagree with almost everything on this video but this was a great watch either way and you guys play off each other really well. Subbed!
🙏🙏
mag·nan·i·mous
adjective
generous or forgiving, especially toward a rival or less powerful person.
Also the way they say wolfgar... OMG
Also was anyone else weirded out they didn't have tongueless tongue carved back in? And why didn't they ever ask him to type his name?
I findished Irong Gold two days ago and I agree with almost all of what was said by you guys, but there is one charecter that saved it for me and the is apollonius au valii-rath, what a magnifcent charecter he is gold at it's extreme like he stole the show everytime he spoke. One thing is I felt a lot of charecters like Mustang, Victra and Kavax became dumber to service the plot a lot of characters who had more nuance in the original trilogy became one note here to service the new characters who fell flat. i think I got the wrong message from this book at the end I was like golds are intresting the other colors are borling LOL.
**Spoilers**
My favorite quotes from the book are:
"I am Cassius Au Bellona, Son of Tiberius, Son of Julia, Morning knight. And my honor remain"
“I dissected the underlying mistakes which led to my incarceration and set upon an internal odyssey to remake myself. But-and you would know this, Reaper-long is the road up out of hell! I made arrangements for supplies. I toiled twenty hours a day. I reread the books of youth with the gravity of age. I perfected my body. My mind. Planks were replaced; new banks of cannon wrought in the fires of solitude. All for the next storm. “Now I see it is upon me and I sail before you the paragon of Apollonius au Valii-Rath. And I ask one question: for what purpose have you pulled me from the deep?”
"I ride to war. To glory. I ride for the head of the Ash Lord..." "I would not ride alone. So I say to you, my darkest devils, awake, arise, and reclaim your glory!"
Lol - great insight and feedback - curious what you think of the subsequent books!!
I’ve read iron gold twice now and I gotta say the first time reading i didn’t care for it but the second I came to like it more because I think the first time I didn’t appreciate the world building that pierce goes into a bit more than the other books and also appreciated that pierce took a leap and told the story in a different way
Fair, I hope this happens to us if we ever get to re-reading it
Magnanimous..you were almost there 😂
*noticed a few people have already said this, but I’ll keep it here nonetheless
I have to hard disagree on this. While Iron Gold is definitely not my favorite, not even close, I think it’s got such an unnecessary bad reputation. I think getting into the new characters was difficult because, after reading three books with just Darrow, all you want is more Darrow. That’s how I felt at least. When it swapped to Lyria the first time, I flipped through the book until I found the next Darrow chapter and it’s legit like 80 pages later. I was so disappointed, and I think that made it harder to connect with the new characters because I had already kind of closed myself off to them. I think Lyria’s POV does such a great job at showing the ramifications of Darrow and co.’s actions. They freed these Reds but then what? Force them to assimilate in camps where they’re no better off really? It was a really interesting evolution of the story imo. I also think the dynamic between Sevro and Darrow in this book is such a more complex, dynamic, and interesting relationship than in the original trilogy. Sorry for the long comment! I also have to say that Dark Age and Light Bringer really are amazing.
Appreciate the comment!! Totally get your perspective on it, and looks like you may have re-readnit and enjoyed it much more afterwards? Thats great to hear if so
@@2ToRamble only read it once (for the first time recently, inspired by your guys' RR video) but have thought about it a lot because I persuaded some friends to read with me so we've been talking about it. Even though I disagreed, loved listening to you guys talk about it! Excited for the Dark Age video. Fingers crossed that Rich enjoys it!
@@JoeyMannino Absolutely!!
I wasn’t that disappointed, it was a slow start & the new character throw me off but they grew on me I liked the way the story turned out
Thats good! - howd you like the subsequent books?
I've just read the first 3 books in 4 days. I am holding iron gold in my hand right now, untouched, fresh, crisp.... Should I pull the trigger on it???? Now I don't know, I'll wait a day and decide I guess?...
I like it more than Dave... less than Austin?
I've had a think. Maybe worth skipping through the book, reading a few chapters, getting a plot summary off wiki, getting a sense for it, reading Lysander... then on to dark age?
@@roy5052that’s a terrible idea. Either read the book or don’t. Both are good options.
Definitely give the book a read - we didn’t like it, but it’s necessary to understand Dark Age and the rest of the series. Plus, there’s a great chance you’ll enjoy it more than we did
Pretty much everyone liked the book apart from these two. I thought it was a lot better than book 1, but not as good as books 2 and 3.
I just finished it! Please bear with me for a sec because English isn’t my first language but… man, I disagree with you guys on the Lysander chapters. Yeah his dynamic with Cassius was fun (because of Cassius) and it was interesting on the rim and all, but what a pedantic little guy. All his chapters were something like “I’ll show Cassius is wrong” [….] “ops, Cassius was right”. At some point he says “I outgrew him” and then does something magnanimously stupid. He gave me teenager Anakin Skywalker vibes, thinking he knows better than his mentors and having all that rage bottled up. At least I think he’s gonna be a more reasonable antagonist than the Jackal, who was just plain evil.
I agree the others pov’s were weak too and very few thing kept me interested but I guess what kept me going was the connection I felt for those characters on the first trilogy and the promise it’s a build up for something more.
Also, I’m probably boring but can’t Darrow have a break please? I was tired just from reading his pov. He should listen to Dancer, get himself some paid vacation time, go be a father for a bit!! Hahaha jk
Can’t wait for the next book and next video!!
Darrow could definitely use some of that PTO lol - interesting points and I see what you mean with Lysander. To me (austin) that makes him a really compelling/interesting character (not necessarily a benevolent one) and I like the Skywalker comparison!
Feel like there's been a lot of positive Richard lately. Welcome back King I missed you
I don't want you to not like things but I love your contempt
"magnanimous" is the word you're looking for
Ooh, I’ve been waiting for this one! SPOILERS BELOW:
My bigger gripes with this book were Darrows decisions coming off as pretty wild to me and maybe even slightly out of character, and THE LYSANDER CHAPTERS. Cassius was the only thing holding those chapters together for me. I loved him in them. Maybe I would’ve loved it more if they actually went off being Guardians of the Galaxy with Pytha but unfortunately, I didn’t care for Lysander all that much in this book he came off as dull to me. Now Ephraim and Lyria, I really did like. The emotional impact of these two new characters and their backstories and how Darrow has inadvertently affected them, hit me hard. It broadens the world outside of Darrows inner circle and shows you two characters who have been shit on from all of this and theyre at their lowest of lows. And what is better than seeing someone at rock bottom claw and crawl their way back to the surface?? Bonus points for introduction of Volga (who doesn’t love Volga??) and more Kavax and Sophocles! The Telemanus family continues to be grade A content for me.
All in all, it goes just above book 1 for me in terms of the series so far. Not my favorite, not the worst, certainly sets stuff up for possibly the best books of the series in my most humble opinion.
Can’t wait for the Dark Age ep! Keep up the good work, boys!
Love the thoughts, will certaint be sharing some of your excitement when we get the Daark Age! Cheers
Giving Iron Gold a 6 or less out of 10 is a crime. The bare minimum score I could see this getting is 7/10. The bald guy is weird, saying he wants to ditch the series after experiencing the awesomeness of the first trilogy and with the knowledge that Dark Age and Lightbringer elevate so far beyond Iron Gold's setup yet still he says he's not interested; crazy. He also said he likes Lysander...
I can speak for Richard here - he likes his “point of view” the best as did I this book but totally see why you’d enjoy the book more than we did! Also we’re both with ya, Dark Age is next level. An incredible book. Iron Gold not so much for me but I like the setup it allowed for Dark Age to be so amazing
I wasn’t around for Iron Gold when it first released, but I’m pretty sure the complaints from fans were down to the switch from first person to different POV’s. It was strange at first, but absolutely needed for the story in order to really see the world and effects of everything. I don’t agree that Lysander carried the book, but stuff during his POV was probably the best of the book for me.
Still need to listen to the rest, so I’m sure I’ll disagree more. I can’t say I would agree even an ounce about this book being as bad as you both feel it is. Everyone will have different tastes of course.
Edit 1 - Lyria may have been there for the world explanations or building. We have the opportunity to see that there are reds that hate Darrow and things aren’t rosy just because Darrow and The Republic have succeeded. People still have shit lives with lower colors.
Fair! Curious what you think by the end. We’re on the ropes with this opinion for sure
@@2ToRamblelooking forward to finishing the review. I hope I’m not coming off as obnoxious or trying to argue. It’s not my intention…. Just putting my thoughts out there on some things.
@@Jmespo83 oh not at all! We just toss our opinions at the wall on the pod, expect the same from the comments. Anythings welcome, your comment especially!
Throwaway character? How dare you insult my boy, Ephraim, that way.
I absolutely disagree with these guys but love the honesty and energy
Appreciate it! We just got done recording Dark Age, I feel like we might agree much more on that one 🤝
Great review conversation. Iron Gold was a huge miss for me. Was a slog for me by the end. In saying that it laid the foundation for Dark Age and Light Bringer which I think are tip tier.
Definitely - I love Dark Age so much despite Iron Gold not doing it for me. - austin
This live action episode of Pinky and the Brain was strange because they talked about a book instead of trying to take over the world.
PLEASE DO LIGHTBRINGER!!!!
I’ll be shocked if Richard doesn’t love Dark Age.
I’d be shocked if he does like it honestly.
I'm the opposite of Austin in that I think Iron Gold was a great set-up, and then Dark Age fumbled the ball hard. I almost didn't pick up Light Bringer afterwards. But I'm glad I did, because LB might be my favorite RR book. It's either that or Morning Star.
Oh wow - at the very least Im hearing all across the board that Lightbringer has been amongst everuones favorites. Cant wait !
I just finished the first trilogy and loved it all the way through. Super excited about this book. I’m a Dave!! The first 9 minutes of this video have destroyed my expectations and now I’m already disappointed going in. 😐
I think it will exceed those expectations - we were in the minority for this one, but hope we got our thoughts across well. Hope you do enjoy the book!
Magnaniomous might be the word but I don’t think it applies in the way you guys mean it to
My biggest thing is I feel like lyria is really being looked over here , for being the bottom of the barrel what the rage of the masses looks like who have, nothing , can do nothing but are stuck with the feelings I also like her growth I won’t lie I’m suprised how much I enjoyed her parts
Fair - did her opening chapter donit for you too, or did you like her more over time?
Were you going for magnanimous? Haha
He probably was lol
I actively despise this book, and Lysander is actually the worst to me. The unrepentant space racist is not a personality that I can get on board with. I have no connection at all with the character and less than 0 sympathy for any of his struggles.
And then there's Darrow. That big decision that he made makes no sense given his history in the trilogy.
I also think that Pierce Brown really struggled with multiple POVs. The inner thoughts of all of the characters had the same word choices, sentence structures and general vibe. The only way that you can tell a difference is when they talk about their relationships with other characters. I challenge you to take 2 sentences from any random part of the book, remove names, and then tell me who is the POV. It can't be done.
The Red Rising trilogy was fun, if not deeply flawed. THIS, however, was dreadful
I loved Lyria tho something about her story was great. The intro to Eph and Lyria were needed to show how the Republic failed
Interesting - did Iron Gold rank higher for uou as far as your favorite in the series go?
As a Jangal supporter. I feel that I committed a crime giving this a like.
Is this Jangal’s alt account 🤓
Phew, thought I was taking crazy pills for being bored for the majority of this book. Watched your spoiler free review of Dark Age and glad to see it improves, great vids!
Cheers!!
Yall need to put some respect on my girl Lyria. I thought her part was great. Darrow was the hurt people hurt people and lyria shows hurt people some times refuse to ever hurt people.
First time I read it it was hard to get into, fast forward 10 re reads later, it’s ranked higher than the original trilogy, it makes sense after multiple re reads!!
Definitely been hearing this and it makes sense!