Hidden information in fighting games
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
- #fightinggames #guiltygearstrive #guiltygear
People are rightfully mad at developers for hiding things like frame data, but there are examples of things that are hidden that make for some interesting scenarios.
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Dizzy's fish in +R are a good example of true hidden information. They are a summon that comes out and does 2 attacks, each of which the Dizzy player chooses from a set of 5, one for each button. Thing is, the dizzy player has to choose both of them immediately, as they summon the fish. So when dizzy is doing setplay on you, she knows which fish attack is coming next, but you don't, and you have no way to know.
Nappa’s ex saibaman in dbfz works kinda like that too
I've always thought Dizzy matches were fun to watch, I've only played Strive though. I'm hoping they bring her on one day and I'm curious how she would play in the Strive arena.
For those who wanna learn about the Wall in Strive, go to Dustloop, GGST, check the glossary at the right and look for Wall. It'll take you to the page with all the info on it. He's right that we don't have info on how much each individual move does, but we basically know everything else
Yeah I don't know why LK keeps saying we don't know how the wall works. The info is out there, its been there from the day the PC version dropped and people data mined that shit.
@@jasonslade6259 it’s because LK doesn’t know.
I think part of the reason for wall vs stun is that stun is for defensive information typically. If you stun someone midcombo, just do another combo, no big deal. If someone gets stunned from your poke, go hit them. Wall break you need to play different combo routes, it resets the screen, sometimes you don't want to break it because it gives your opponent midscreen back, etc. Breaking the wall at the wrong time can lose you the game, stunning someone by mistake isn't normally bad.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.
But shoutouts to dizzying your opponent right as you cancel into super. 💀
worst thing is that damn sudden freeze when you get splat
Umm stun is more important for the person being stunned. I think you're thinking of both of them in the same perspective as the person in advantage. Like if you see that you yourself is about to get stunned you're probably gonna play more defensively until it goes down...
@@michaeligwe6283 That's literally what I said.
One that I don't like is SSJ4 Gogettas taunts and Adult Gohans levels in DBFZ. There's like 7 of them and that info could easily be put above meter like 21's copy abilities.
I personally don’t mind the Johnny level thing because it is quite easy to tell how many coins he’s hit you with and the mist levels are all quite distinct, not to mention it flashes every time he does a cancel, which is a lot. It could get annoying if it was something like Sin food, but the level is p easy to track
I used to to think the wall was fine. The more you play the more you know when you will splat and stuff; nonetheless, the exact same combo done from full screen vs a couple steps aways from fullscreen make wall splat inconsistent at (at least for a lot of May's fullscreen combos [not efficient but proves wallsplat inconsistency with exact same combo]). This really is frustrating when you really don't know and is forced to go for yolo reset setups or sometimes break the wall with suboptimal damage (6H or j.D vs 6[H] for example). A bar would be nice, but really giving info on how it works would be nice. I think the closer you are there are marginal increases, but this applies to both walls. So if you are full screen the first hit will do more wall damage as you are very close to a wall. Kinda very inconsistent.
Just picked up KoF XV. Jesus Christ theres so much the game doesn't tell you.
Like what?
an example from street fighter: you can charge in pretty much every situation, but there's no visible indicator for when you have charge or not. You can "hide" your charge by charging while jumping or pressing a button, and the way you play around charge characters, and they way they play themselves, changes depending on whether or not they have charge
Lol Tekken with the tracking properties of moves. Sometimes a move can track like 73% left and 27% right. Part of me really hates this and wishes it was more binary. But also its kind of a stinky charm that I've come to love with the game as there is always something I can learn.
Kinda reminds me of hearthstone, where tracking positions of cards in your opponent's hand is critical to high level play but the game gives you no indicators for it. It's not hidden information, the player is told everything they need, it's just un-reminded information. Which I think is distinct from true-hidden info that the player is never told.
LoR player, unrelated to the video but how do you play around card position in hand? I've never really paid much attention to it to be honest, would love to know how that works.
Tbf I'm kinda a scrub in card games, I've only recently started practicing my hand reading more haha
@@meethepie I'm no hearthstone/LoR player but the only example I could think of when looking at the position of the cards is important is for cards or effects that do stuff like "x happens to right-most card" or "buff the cards in hand next to this" stuff like that, so if you know that that card was for example, a beast that another card gave to them, then you can know beforehand that that beast was buffed
It’s because you can track when they drew certain cards. So if they didn’t use a card earlier that would have been very strong, and you’ve tracked that they only have one new card in their hand, it’s much more unlikely for them to have drawn that option since.
@@meethepie As an example, if you see that your opponent drew a card on turn 1 and its now turn 6 and they still haven't used it, you can assume that either A) It is a high mana cost card that they can't play yet. Or B) It is a situational card and they're saving it for the right moment.
As an example, before he was nerfed Big Game Hunter was played in basically every deck. He is a creature card that when he's played, he instantly destroys a minion with 7 or more attack power. So people would commonly hold him in their hand for a long time and wait for their opponent to play their big scary minions, tracking if your opponent has been holding a card in their hand for a long time would basically tell you that they had Big Game Hunter in hand.
@@meethepie basically in hearthstone, cards are kept in a constant order in hand, and you can see which of someone's cards they play. Which means that with good memory, you can tell exactly where each of their cards came from (what turn they drew it, or what other card generated it). If they have a card that's been in their hand a while, you know it's a card that they never had a favorable situation to play on an earlier turn, which lets you deduce what it can or cannot be. Most ladder-grinders don't pay attention to this, but at the top level, it's an integral mechanic, especially because of how much of hearthstone revolves around playing around or baiting out specific key cards.
Another great example from older gear: does Millia have pin. It can be in the ground off screen and it’s possible to lose track of if they have it or not.
Two things I extract from this video:
1.- Zato really was out here with the thicc ultraman stance in Xrd I got into fighting games too late
2.- It's all knowledge checks all the way down
Wait until you hear about the character specific properties of Vorpal State in Under NIght
Another hidden mechanic on I can think of on a character level is Azrael’s phalanx cannon in blazblue
the game straight up just won’t tell you how much he as stocked, so you have to actively keep count of how much he’s absorbed with growler field
Which is important if you play a zoner because in tandem with growler, phalanx cannon is a pretty damn good projectile that can easily let him blow up zoners and get in, something he might struggle with otherwise
And similarly to mist finer, Azrael can hold them for as long as he wants so forgetting he has any stocked is always a possibility.
mmmmm azreal slober noises
I don’t mind that it doesn’t tell you Johnny level because is easy to tell, but as an Azrael player, I hate that they don’t tell you how many he has stocked. It’s very hard to tell what counts as an extra projectile absorbed or not when there are so many multi hitting and weird ones that I can end up thinking I have an extra one when I don’t. It’s very annoying and way harder to keep track of
Another good example of hidden info on a character is Captain Ginyu's Ginyu Force current member on the rotation
even worse is with Ginyu B assist... dear god who would even be able to track so many different calls of the ginyu force because they put ALL of the ginyu force calls into B assists(5S, 236S and 214S)
even though the order is fixed is still a mess to keep track of so many different assist calls you can get in the middle of match and also while rotating characters all the time...
I'm reminded of Testament in GGXX+R. His two P4U Naoto traps, HITOMI (Tree, ground trap) & Zeinest (Net, air trap) are _completely_ invisible until they hit you. You only know where they are by paying attention to Testament's trap-laying animation. Admittedly, the more threatening Net has a pretty obvious animation (Testament's arm turns into a large blood spurt), but Tree's animation (wind blows his hair while he stands still)... not so much.
Admittedly, as a shitty low-level player, I cannot objectively judge this outside of the context of +R Testament _already_ having a ton of other dumb bullshit he doesn't deserve (of which his traps being invisible definitely aren't the biggest). But I still get the strong sense that, if he came out in Strive (and also kept both traps), they'd make his traps visible in a fucking heartbeat, and no one would complain.
SF3 had stun bars too. Weird that stun has been a constant in SF since 2, but they are unsure whether they want it to be so explicit or not.
i think most things should be exposed to the player at least in some capacity, these things are the rules of the game, imagine if tennis just didn't show who had adv that would be a nightmare
Reminds me of Yoshitora in SamSho. He has an alternate win condition where he basically has an OP meterless super, but only if he hits the opponent with each of his 6 special moves. There's no UI for which specials he's hit, and it's easy to lose track when it carries over between rounds.
I definitely find hidden info on characters pretty interesting. I enjoy the way it makes me play against them, how it makes me think and plan out the next move im going to make. It makes your awareness better. good video as always.
I think the difference in annoyance with the wall versus stun is that Wall break happens so much more and is kind of a defining system mechanic in Strive as opposed to stun in most games where it's kind of an extra. It's really weird that they'd make a big deal of this mechanic yet the game doesn't really tell you THAT much about it as of now outside of it takes damage, it breaks, and it gives you meter.
Stun was ABSOUTLY a defining mechanic in Street Fighter 4 and people did complain that there was no stun meter in the game. That's why it is visible in SF5, and its arguably an even more important mechanic in SF5.
@@jasonslade6259 Okay but stun was never directly advertised to us though as a selling point to the game is what I'm trying to get at here.
A selling point would be something like Focus Attack in SF4
The best worst hidden information in all of fighting games is Twelve using invisibility. 💀
Me: (sliding my chair up and holding a sheet of orange construction paper over my side of the screen)
My opponent: “Bro, what are you doing?”
Me: “THAT’S NOT FOR YOU TO KNOW.”
Could you imagine game devs hiding opponents EX bars. It would totally change the outcome of matches. People couldnt see when Demon setups would be in play, if wake up exDPs were available. Pressure would surely be toned down as you couldnt make informed decisions. As such I feel that devs need to display system mechanics knowing that people will base decisions on it. If they dont show it , it becomes gatekeeping for newer players and "Git gut" mentality will drive players away.
i always love seeing doax3 at the end of your fg folder lmfao
I remember developers from some game, maybe it was Strive?, saying that they don't want frame data to be visible, because it could misguide players to thinking they have to remember it for every single move
I really thought this was going to be about the decision making process a player has to go through since it's ambiguous which direction Johnny is aiming when he's in the stance, but I think the levels specifically are communicated pretty well
When talking about the wall's health, many people don't talk that damage is done to the wall even if your combo started mid screen.
Also it can backfire to the defending player in case of a side switch, if you've been brought to the wall by a combo of your opponent, then you manage to attack him and side switch, the wall can suddenly break and give a really sub par combo.
I thought wall damage was a per person thing (as weird as that sounds). If you take a lot of wall damage, then turn the tides, I'm pretty sure you can still do an optimal wall combo to your opponent without an early wall splat.
Gonna test that right now, just to be sure, will edit comment afterwards.
EDIT: Yeah, it's per person rather than overall. I went into training mode and did a wall break combo but stopped short just before wall splat. Then I took control of the opponent and did the same combo and it didn't wall splat early.
man was stream, and uploading a video, true king shit
Yeah the wall break versus the stun thing is like…
Taking a full combo for free sucks, and you’d like to know when you and your opponent are reaching that state, but there’s no real “punishment” for missing it. You accidentally poke them out of stun when you had a free combo. It’s a “big deal”, but it isn’t as big of a deal as not knowing about the wall break.
Once the wall splat happens, it’s basically too late to choose not break the wall. If you don’t, they get to flip out of the corner. Messing up the wall break determines whether you get corner pressure or a reset back to neutral which can be the difference between a win or loss. If I have an Axl cornered and I can break the wall without killing OR drop the combo on purpose and go into Ram’s nutty corner pressure to crank up risc and guarantee that they aren’t leaving the corner before dying, I’m gonna choose to keep him cornered. Resetting back to neutral against Axl is absolutely not where you want to be, and I usually find myself not willing to break the wall unless it’s with super against him specifically. I haven’t played much since Happy Chaos has come out, but he strikes me as another guy you don’t want to let out of the corner.
There’s also been several times where I think I need one more extra hit to start the wall splat than I actually do, and I’ll input a move that I can’t cancel just before the splat freeze happens. Like… with Ram, I’ll do a 6HS thinking that will cause the splat, the splat happens from the move I did before, and I can’t undo the 6HS to super instead. That’s another annoyance, though less of a problem than somebody like Millia who might not want to break the wall ever.
Remember when they hid RISC in the beta?
I remember when they said they wanted it to be more important AND STILL HID IT. Man, they were really off the shit on those early interviews, just going like “Uh, nice recommendations, we won’t be doing it, we like our way better.” and then turns out they changed it later cuz that way sucked
Tbh i sometimes forget what lvl im in when im playing johnny and i have to mist finer cancel to see which is hilarious
love the catherine music
I could never wiggle fast enough
yo LK content is soooo goated!
I was writing up a FGC character based in the “Legendary “ Dim Mak technique (PLEASE KEEP READING)
His DM Specials do 1DAMAGE PER HIT
BUT
if you deal enough DM stacks ... 3 seconds to Instant KO
How many DM hits? Varies by character (start labbing! XD )
OR
You can use a chain command throw (from his special Parry or a SLIW Command Throw) to cash the DM into real Damage!
walls are like reverse hit confirm
LordKnight already looking clean! Make sure you check his YT channel out for more KOF content.
Personally, stun and the wall are probably seen way differently because stun is rarely a goal while the wall is always a goal. Kind of a noob though so idk
That's the complete opposite, the vast majority of strive characters would rather you couldn't break the wall at all since the meter bonus doesn't make up for the loss of good positioning, but there's no street fighter character that would want to not have stun in the game, it's only a positive if you manage to stun your opponent.
@@brian_cream I don't mean the wall break is the goal, I mean cornering your opponent
wall is so crazy inconsistent that I do a combo and record it and when I hit playback, that same combo I just recorded doesn't work and gets wall splat sooner. There are moves that trigger wall sooner or later but most important thing is the distance. you can see alot of combos like that in my combo videos
and there is no mod to have frame data ? iam suprised
under night and melty blood type lumina have it but it has more to do with how the games are made that just made it easier to mod than in other games.
because it's not necessary
@@HellecticMojo cap
@@Nutt_lemmings it isn't, if it was, the genre would've been dead ages ago
@@HellecticMojo I could say the same for rollback netcode huh.
I've never seen anyone have problems remembering what level Johnny is in. You can clearly see when he levels up and good Johhny players are using mf cancels constantly for pressure and in neutral
Stun output/gauge in most games
when are making the dead or alive video
Why haven't we datamined wall health?
I remember reading a thread on the game's release from someone trying to do just that, and they came to the conclusion that however the wall works, including wall damage from specific moves, is intentionally made as obtuse and confusing as possible, to the point where, supposedly, attacks have different amount of wall damage added depending on how many frames have passed since wall stick. There's even more to it than that that's been theorized, but essentially, it's designed in such a way that even if we were able to understand it top to bottom, there's so much tiny variation that it could never be actually optimized.
@@supernebula101 wow that seems incredibly unnecessary. Doesn't add anything to the game but confusion imo. Oh well.
Dead or alive extreme 3 😏
Then theres testament with her webs and tree
First
Secondth
Third
Real first here