Banned Legacy Cards Part 9 - The Rest

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  • Опубліковано 19 гру 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 124

  • @phyrexian_dude4645
    @phyrexian_dude4645 Рік тому +52

    10:56 "Time consuming" its to put it lightly. When Extended was still a thing and long before miracles, i played a tournament with a burn mono red deck. Finished my round in 5 min because... burn mono red. I walked around talked with the pople on the store and over time mosty everyone finished their matches but two guys. We went to see what was taking so long and in horror we saw a mirror match of 2 mono blue control decks... both had counterbalance and the Senseis top in play... and they were still on their FIRST match...

    • @corey2232
      @corey2232 Рік тому +12

      Yeah, and I think he put too much emphasis on the power level & not the time aspect. Sure, it was strong, but it lasted a long time in Legacy just fine. But the combination of using fetch lands, Ponder, & other shuffle effects, plus being able to activate the ability multiple times at instant speed, SEVERELY dragged games on & on & on...
      Counterbalance/Miracles were good decks, but they were on par (if not Tier 1.5) much of the time. But making games go to time or having your opponent winning a matchup 1-0 without a chance for even a game 2 sucked.

    • @guybrushthreepwood362
      @guybrushthreepwood362 Рік тому +3

      @@corey2232 I honestly think that top MIGHT have dodged the ban hammer if it wasn't such an awful time sink, it feels almost as bad as Shahrazad. People will rearrange the top of their deck after every game action. Even winning a match while playing top feels terrible.

    • @anannoyedpanda
      @anannoyedpanda Рік тому

      This is why control should be banned as an archetype.

    • @dark_rit
      @dark_rit Рік тому

      @@corey2232 Miracles with countertop was the best deck for years honestly. Even in 2008 with decks like supreme blue as it was called at the time running a bant shell with goyf it was still a very powerful deck in a format that had ad nauseam and mystical tutor legal. Hell, even GP Flash had countertop being played in Steve Sadin's winning decklist. Then you add time issues on top of it and I'm glad it's banned.

  • @ksul0014
    @ksul0014 Рік тому +152

    "Could Tolarian Community College be unbanned?
    This is a hard no."
    No, not the professor. You can't keep him banned forever.

    • @TheTundraTerror
      @TheTundraTerror Рік тому +18

      NEW SECRET LAIR ALERT!

    • @jshtng78
      @jshtng78 Рік тому +4

      Tolarian College Professor
      15 Blue
      Tap this card. Until your next upkeep the effect becomes that of Tolarian Academy. At the start of your next upkeep, you lose the game.

  • @aappaapp6627
    @aappaapp6627 Рік тому +19

    Excited for the commander series! Maybe it would be cool to go over every card that's been banned in standard

  • @Interesting_Failure
    @Interesting_Failure Рік тому +7

    The irony of Ragavan's Dash making it a 1-toughness thing that could reliably dodge Wrenn and Six is fairly thick.

  • @aegisofhonor
    @aegisofhonor Рік тому +17

    where Top becomes ridiculously broken was when you had two tops and reduced the cost of Top by 1, which there are A LOT of ways doing just that in Legacy. With two 0 cost Tops you can cast them over and over infantry triggering prowess over and over or other triggers that care about casting non-creature, artifact, or artifact EBT effects allowing you to essentially win the game on the spot. Combine this with cards like Urza's Saga that lets you search for a Top, this makes getting two Tops very easy to get to.

    • @danlorett2184
      @danlorett2184 Рік тому +3

      Counterbalance, the card that turned Top from "man this card is annoying" to "WTF IS THIS". With Counterbalance, top itself can be used to draw a card and put itself on the library to counter any 1 cmc card. And then you could also rearrange your top 3 to counter other spells... without losing any cards. Super busted. Literally getting both in play in a format like Legacy where cards are generally pretty low cost basically gives Top the text "pay 1: counter target spell".

  • @fernandobanda5734
    @fernandobanda5734 Рік тому +8

    A possible fix for Expressive Iteration would be to not allow you to play lands from exile. The fact that you're almost certainly guaranteed to see a land in the top 3 and have it recover your mana this turn while also giving you your land drop next turn is what makes it so free to use early game.
    If you have to commit to pay mana for a card right then and there, and it has to be a spell that works proactively, then drawing 2 for 2 is much more manageable.

  • @Dinamosaur
    @Dinamosaur Рік тому +14

    A fun idea for a video could be “Most outclassed cards of all time"; going over cards that have the most "strictly better" version of themselves. Some examples are Snapping Drake, Crazed Goblin and Wing Snare.

  • @a_speeder1728
    @a_speeder1728 Рік тому +5

    Commander banlist reasoning will be like “Sheldon’s friends got salty over it”

  • @EverianKalim
    @EverianKalim Рік тому +9

    1:35 Hang on a Minute......

  • @entothechesnautknight1762
    @entothechesnautknight1762 Рік тому +6

    >We're taking a look at the commander ban list next
    Oh. Oh no.
    Your sanity is going to drain so fast once we hit the commander list.
    The RC's logic is beyond our mortal comprehension.

    • @supersaiyanweegee5599
      @supersaiyanweegee5599 Рік тому +1

      Braids moment

    • @simonteesdale9752
      @simonteesdale9752 Рік тому +2

      They're not super consistent, but they aren't as bad as people meme on them for.
      The real thing that's hard to wrap your head around is that they ban for different reasons every other format, and that the bans are aimed at enhancing the casual experience rather than for any pretence at balance.

  • @corey2232
    @corey2232 Рік тому +29

    I... don't even know what that pronunciation of Gaea's Cradle was 😵‍💫

    • @alexanderficken9354
      @alexanderficken9354 Рік тому +13

      He purposely mispronounces cards

    • @ADVBCAT
      @ADVBCAT Рік тому +6

      Engagement bait.

    • @HollandTHG
      @HollandTHG Рік тому +2

      "Code Geass' Cradle"

    • @ariajacobs5719
      @ariajacobs5719 Рік тому +1

      @@alexanderficken9354okay thank god. They've been tearing me apart inside

  • @blodges6645
    @blodges6645 Рік тому +11

    Your channel is genuinely so underrated

  • @jenniferwilliams9612
    @jenniferwilliams9612 Рік тому

    1:35 my favorite part of this video is “could Tolarian Community College be unbanned?” OMG, that is beautiful!

  • @Darxide23
    @Darxide23 Рік тому +4

    I don't know how many times you said "Wren and Six" but each time I still expected to hear Ren & Stimpy.

  • @othervinny
    @othervinny Рік тому +3

    Ooh, commander ban list will be fun, there's some controversial ones on there.

  • @sagacious03
    @sagacious03 Рік тому

    Neat analysis video! Thanks for uploading!

  • @Xenozfan2
    @Xenozfan2 Рік тому +2

    "Next is the Commander ban list." Oh boy, can't wait to see the arguments in the comments section. I'll start: keep them all banned, and no "banned as commander" list.

  • @gabrote42
    @gabrote42 Рік тому +6

    2:55 You could make it a Cabal Coffers by making you pay Mana to get mana, but that could make it terrible

    • @zakbrooks7354
      @zakbrooks7354 Рік тому +1

      Even then cabal coffers is still a good card. It'd need some kind of other restrictions like only allowing you to tap it once per turn

    • @dark_rit
      @dark_rit Рік тому +2

      Even if you had to pay 2 to activate academy, I wouldn't be surprised if it got banned at that rate because cabal coffers is limited by landdrops, but academy has no such restriction on it just adding more and more over a turn since you're usually drawing and play more artifacts as well as untapping academy. Such a broken card, one of the most powerful cards on the banlist at this point since there are only more 0 mana artifacts floating around now.

    • @gabrote42
      @gabrote42 Рік тому

      @@dark_rit One could always make it a 4, but that would require quite a bit of playtesting and probably wouldn't make it anywhere that wasn't, like, MH3. It's very scary I agree, but it's at last _a_ fix that doesn't change the card identity

  • @makenshao9886
    @makenshao9886 Рік тому +1

    Other reasons I have seen people talk about why Ragavan is just that good is that not only he ramps you, he mana fixes you and helps protect you against mana denial like wasteland or moon/back to basics. And the ability to rip cards from the opponent deck also worked as incidental hate, as not only you could play their cards, you could also rip cards you would rather them not have like interaction or combo pieces.

  • @DotHacker99
    @DotHacker99 Рік тому

    Love your vids! Going over Pioneer banlist would be cool

  • @thomasfplm
    @thomasfplm Рік тому +1

    Ironically, Scullclamp used to give +1/+1 when they were playtesting it and they though it was too strong.
    So they "nerfed" it in the last minute and did not playtest it after.

  • @SomeGuy712x
    @SomeGuy712x Рік тому

    (1:56) You cannot grasp the true form of Giygas's Cradle's ability to tap for mana! :P
    (15:09) Whoops, the text there says "Why was the Undercity banned?", even though it's obviously not the dungeon itself that's banned.

  • @gyrasolune5436
    @gyrasolune5436 Рік тому

    Another deal with Tolarian Academy is the rise of cards that produce little token artifacts like treasure and food and blood and so forth. In the time that it's been banned, there's been even MORE ways to put tons of cheap little artifacts on the board, and some decks can do this without even having any actual artifacts in the deck.

  • @pointfiev
    @pointfiev Рік тому +1

    i think rags damage trigger making you choose one of the options, it would maybe be okay. if its still too much, removing the dash ability would def fix it.

  • @BadDrummerCarl
    @BadDrummerCarl Рік тому

    To add to the recent Expressive Iteration banning the card also lets you exile a land card to play that. The value on the card is bonkers.
    It's fun seeing Legacy cards that are banned but are completely fine in modern due to other cards that are unbanned

  • @kennydarmawan13
    @kennydarmawan13 Рік тому +53

    To nerf Tolarian Academy, make it a tapland and a Cabal Coffers restriction.

    • @DrJambonius
      @DrJambonius Рік тому +18

      True! They also could make it "enter the battlefied tapped" and "shroud" (You would not be able to constantly untap it)

    • @kennydarmawan13
      @kennydarmawan13 Рік тому +3

      ​@@DrJambonius these.

    • @pyrotempestwing
      @pyrotempestwing Рік тому +4

      @@DrJambonius You wouldn’t be able to continuously untap it, yes, but your opponent couldn’t target it to destroy it.

    • @tommyscheer2900
      @tommyscheer2900 Рік тому

      If you just mean for legacy I agree but that’d still break modern

    • @josuecosta1399
      @josuecosta1399 Рік тому +3

      ​@@DrJambonius No shroud... Because if you have shroud amulet of vigor breaks it completely.

  • @TNTColonel
    @TNTColonel Рік тому

    Another option for White Plume would be to have it cost more colored mana (this goes for a lot of the initiative cards in general tbh)
    you can play it super early due to Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors but those give you 2 colorless each. If you had to pay 1WW or, ideally, WWW, ramping into it super early becomes much more difficult.

  • @kyrillgill9112
    @kyrillgill9112 Рік тому

    Commander ban list LETS GO

  • @vDeadbolt
    @vDeadbolt Рік тому +2

    Oh, doing a commander banlist video is pretty funny because of how much of a joke it is.
    Cards are banned because they are sign post bans. Coalition victory is banned because the rules committee wants to discourage instant wins, yet cards like Thassa's Oracle have warped the format around it. There are a few bans that actually can break the format or are too much of a value engine. But outside of those, the ban list is a joke

  • @vinni522
    @vinni522 Рік тому

    To fix expressive iteration, change its casting cost to RR. Or just give it a functional restriction.
    UR - Last Iteration
    Same as EI + you cannot play spells named “Last Iteration” for the rest of the game.

  • @sparkyanimations213
    @sparkyanimations213 Рік тому +1

    Really cool video ❤

  • @jasonryan5572
    @jasonryan5572 Рік тому +1

    I play modern and still have to deal with the monkey and the tree #6 and #7

  • @zchadowhd
    @zchadowhd Рік тому

    Another video idea is to make a commander deck list with these cards. Perhaps a jeskai deck with divines top, expressive iteration with young pyromancer and white plumes!

  • @simonteesdale9752
    @simonteesdale9752 Рік тому

    It's not a card, but there's also a _deck_ that's soft banned.
    It's called four horsemen, and it's a combo deck that falls foul of the looping rules, so executing the combo is technically slow play/stalling.
    The way the deck works is that you assemble the combo of Mesmeric orb + Basalt Monolith, which results in you being able to infinitely mill yourself at instant speed.
    The aim of this is to put enough Narcomebas into play to cabal therapy away all their interaction, then Dread Return Syr Konrad into play and win with his trigger.
    The issue is that the deck also plays 2 Emrakuls to loop your deck and play around graveyard interaction (as you can respond to hate by milling the other Emrakul and shuffling everything back in.) Because you can't say what your graveyard will look like after a certain number of mills, you can't shortcut it and have to play the lengthy combo out.

  • @nickbianchini3967
    @nickbianchini3967 Рік тому +2

    Do the Pauper ban list next!

    • @Tambanti
      @Tambanti Рік тому +2

      The Pauper ban list would be "...so it was banned instead of dark ritual" lol

  • @nightingaleseraph
    @nightingaleseraph Рік тому

    Windfall was banned long before echo of eons was printed. It was banned because WotC wanted to cut down on the number of wheel effects.

  • @soarel325
    @soarel325 Рік тому

    Ragavan and Wrenn..I'd say those belong on the Modern banlist too but honestly Incarnations take priority over Wrenn at this point. I hate those things.
    Commander banlist overview seems...interesting, especially since the question of whether cards should be unbanned in it is far more subjective due to the casual nature of the format.

  • @demonkingt
    @demonkingt Рік тому

    it's funny that windfall is illegal because 3 mana. add 1 more black to the cost and suddenly it's super fine to play lmao "whispering madness" is the exact same card but 4 cmc u b 2

  • @dorping_Wolf
    @dorping_Wolf Рік тому +4

    Sensei's should be banned in every format existing. for its annoyance alone. even "normal" blue decks with basic counters do react to absolutely everything you do with it, to look if they had an answer. if not, they do some shuffle, and repeat. every fing time you do even touch a card...
    even decks without any real interaction with it, would play it, since after every random shuffle it would work again...
    not to mention how save it is, since it can always put itself in top...
    and skullclamp obviously is just a "misprint". okay more like a last minute mis-thought like Oko.

    • @dark_rit
      @dark_rit Рік тому +1

      Not banning it in vintage is honestly fine because of how fast vintage games are. Commander players though would probably riot if top was banned there.

  • @benplocica3790
    @benplocica3790 Рік тому

    history of MTG Extended/Modern please!

  • @HollandTHG
    @HollandTHG Рік тому

    Ahh, good ol' Blue/Red. The OG Steam Deck.

  • @h3h3podcastclipper
    @h3h3podcastclipper Рік тому

    White-based Initiative keeps Delver decks in check while inadvertently causes the format to be a two-deck meta. With Expressive Iteration banned, there's no reason for White Plume Adventurer to stay.

  • @johnadams4427
    @johnadams4427 Рік тому

    I'm sure it's been brought up - and it in no way diminishes the true quality of the information in this video series - but why were Mind Twist and Mind's Desire in the "Best Fast Mana" video but Tolarian Academy (and maybe others, only a minute into the video so far) is on this one?
    Is it some joke I'm not getting about the word "Mind" in both of those cards' names? Or just boosting engagement with comments like this one or something?
    Again: Not mad, just very curious. Love your work. ❤😊

  • @samorottheraccoon754
    @samorottheraccoon754 Рік тому

    WOO COMMANDER BANILST VIDEOS ARE COMING SOON

  • @Jesin00
    @Jesin00 Рік тому

    The captions near the start of the Ragavan explanation say treasures cost mana to activate. This is incorrect.

  • @jayredharpstudios9672
    @jayredharpstudios9672 Рік тому +4

    For Wrenn and Six plus one ability, you could make it only grab basic lands, so you can't repeatedly grab fetch lands and wasteland

    • @evenlydistributedmoney
      @evenlydistributedmoney Рік тому

      So +1 do nothing, great!

    • @tychoMX
      @tychoMX Рік тому

      @@evenlydistributedmoney still ramps you. +1s shouldn't be game breaking :S For almost all the self-defending Planeswalkers, you need to pay for a -X ability to put a meaningful creature on the board

    • @jayredharpstudios9672
      @jayredharpstudios9672 Рік тому

      Tell me you run no basic lands without telling me you don't run any basic lands

    • @evenlydistributedmoney
      @evenlydistributedmoney Рік тому

      You are aware this is about the legacy ban list right? where you have access to fetches and duals and don't have to play basics

    • @evenlydistributedmoney
      @evenlydistributedmoney Рік тому

      It does not ramp you, it nets you card advantage by effectively drawing you a card you've already used. You can't get basic lands into your graveyard without discarding to another effect, at which point you are not generating the same sort of card advantage, and will also have to build your deck around not only playing a bunch of basics, but then discarding them to build around this one planeswalker.

  • @jadedheartsz
    @jadedheartsz Рік тому +2

    Ragavan just needs to have a higher cost, 2 or 3 mana might be enough to get it unbanned.

    • @tychoMX
      @tychoMX Рік тому +1

      agreed.It's really most of an issue as a 1-drop. May not be enough at 2, though.

    • @roguebanshee
      @roguebanshee Рік тому +1

      Part of the issue with Ragavan is the 2-mana Dash. Just increasing the casting cost of the monkey will not stop it from being oppressive.

  • @rdg1065
    @rdg1065 Рік тому +1

    Says a lot about Ragavan when he is banned in legacy and not in modern

  • @cerebralisk
    @cerebralisk Рік тому +3

    i swear you pick a card to say wrong every video just to mess with the viewer lol

  • @Mlkm97
    @Mlkm97 Рік тому

    Guys which format has more players legacy or vintage ? Just curious to know

  • @7Alberto7
    @7Alberto7 Рік тому

    Amazing!

  • @lenardEkko
    @lenardEkko Рік тому

    Would you be willing to cover the pioneer banlist?

  • @brianray3956
    @brianray3956 Рік тому

    Can't wait to hear the commander ban list. Why is Primeval Titan banned? Not really sure, could it be unbanned, yeah probably. Why is Coalition Victory banned, also not sure, could it be unbanned, yeah probably. Why is Iona banned? Not sure, could it be unbanned, yes definitely.

  • @jadedheartsz
    @jadedheartsz Рік тому +1

    Tolarian Academy could be unbanned if you make it so that it costs life or colorless mana to tape and use it's ability.

    • @tychoMX
      @tychoMX Рік тому

      not life... it's almost meaningless in a deck based to "go off" and end the game in a turn. Unless it's one life per mana produced, then maybe.
      Having an activation cost may work... even entering tapped, then you know you're on the 1-turn clock!

    • @dark_rit
      @dark_rit Рік тому

      Entering tapped is interesting, but academy decks historically have played untap effects to tap it multiple times in a single turn outside of vintage at this point where just drawing academy is powerful enough usually.

    • @jadedheartsz
      @jadedheartsz Рік тому

      @@dark_rit maybe you have to pay a cost to untap it.

    • @roguebanshee
      @roguebanshee Рік тому

      @@jadedheartsz There are so many ways to avoid a cost to untap a permanent and just untap it, decks that could play Tolarian Academy would make room for several of those.

    • @jadedheartsz
      @jadedheartsz Рік тому

      @@roguebanshee so make it so you can't do that then, plenty of cards from around that time had effects saying "nothing can counter this loss of life"

  • @Psyman2
    @Psyman2 Рік тому

    If you talk about cards you have talked about before you could mention which vids of yours you have mentioned them in and then link them.
    That gives us more info if we want it and creates viewchains for you. Win-win =)

  • @Dokurider
    @Dokurider 6 місяців тому

    Why not have Wrenn and Six return only basic lands?

  • @danielthomas8699
    @danielthomas8699 Рік тому

    How are thes cards all banned ? They are all played in edh the most common one being skull clamp .

  • @khub5660
    @khub5660 Рік тому +4

    Ragavan is the same way in Modern. Since Modern sells more packs than Legacy, Wizards of the Crack won't do anything to it despite its existence warping the format along with the force elementals

  • @Matteo_Consiglio
    @Matteo_Consiglio Рік тому

    Best Artifact creatures?

  • @ATADSP
    @ATADSP Рік тому

    If I could unmake any MtG card it would be Sensei's Divining Top. It annoys me so much.

  • @smolclips5996
    @smolclips5996 Рік тому

    Gee-aysahs cradle?

  • @ArtisticTomahawk
    @ArtisticTomahawk Рік тому

    Ragavan is banned in legacy... goes on how good he is...
    I go play with Ragavan in modern... flips nothing but lands =/
    It's gotta be good lemme try again... gets bolted =(
    Try aga... fatal push D:

    • @simonteesdale9752
      @simonteesdale9752 Рік тому

      Modern is much heavier on creature removal than legacy, which has to worry about much more combo decks where creature removal is dead against them.

  • @nharviala
    @nharviala Рік тому

    Gee-asses Cradle. Why.

  • @myopinionson4892
    @myopinionson4892 Рік тому

    Gee-oss?

  • @enmanuelperez7564
    @enmanuelperez7564 Рік тому

    Engagement

  • @Epzilon12
    @Epzilon12 Рік тому

    Couldn’t you nerf Tolarian Academy by making start tapped and having it only count artifacts with a CMC of 1 or more so it doesn’t work with mox?

    • @fernandobanda5734
      @fernandobanda5734 Рік тому +3

      It would still be crazy good. A single artifact makes it an Island. Only two artifacts make it a blue Ancient Tomb (already a good card). Anything after that is completely ridiculous. The problem is it scales very badly.

  • @jadedheartsz
    @jadedheartsz Рік тому

    Windfall could be unbanned if you have to pay life for it or something.

  • @christopherb501
    @christopherb501 Рік тому

    Third

  • @OberynTheRedViper
    @OberynTheRedViper Рік тому +3

    Jesus’s Cradle…
    You know how I can tell this dude has NEVER played paper magic? Because he would have been murdered for mispronouncing damn near every card name and not even trying to get them right.
    Clearly only plays Arena where his opponents can’t hear his bullshit.

    • @davidspektorov8262
      @davidspektorov8262 Рік тому +9

      He intentionally mispronounces card names so people try to correct him for engagement. It's like the latest "Like and subscribe". And you basically 100% fed into it.

    • @anannoyedpanda
      @anannoyedpanda Рік тому

      Dumbassssssssssssssssss

    • @OberynTheRedViper
      @OberynTheRedViper Рік тому

      @@davidspektorov8262 source? Or are you just making shit up like this dude does pronunciations.

    • @davidspektorov8262
      @davidspektorov8262 Рік тому

      @@OberynTheRedViper google it

  • @nathannjh
    @nathannjh Рік тому

    The undercity is so unbelievably annoying. I hold a grudge against commander because it ruined my favorite eternal formats for a while.

  • @theintermorpherz
    @theintermorpherz Рік тому

    First

  • @BraxtonMeyer
    @BraxtonMeyer Рік тому

    wrenn and six could and should be unbanned.

    • @anannoyedpanda
      @anannoyedpanda Рік тому

      Hell no.

    • @dark_rit
      @dark_rit Рік тому +2

      No, it was metawarping when legal. WAY too good in a format where wasteland is legal and the ping ability is honestly great too considering how many 1 toughness creatures get played.

    • @williamdrum9899
      @williamdrum9899 Рік тому

      It's crucible for RG essentially