It’d be kind of cool if they had one that did that, but have a mechanic that lets you interleave an ability before the shuffle happens so it’s a tutor with an instant speed draw ability/instant. Kind of like the opposite of split second since it invites abilities to be played between the effects.
There's another benefit to Mystical Tutor that makes it just as good as Vampiric Tutor, even with the restricted search. It's simple and obvious: Mystical Tutor is blue, meaning it can be used to pay for Force of Will's alternate cost and give you a free counterspell to protect your combo.
Don't forget, with vampiric tutor played right you could pick a card that has miracle and then draw it your next turn to trigger miracle, so sometimes it could be scarier than demonic
@Jeff Sirloin Bruh, call out my comment for lack of attention span when you clearly weren't paying full attention either as I specifically pointed out the miracle combo for JUST VAMPIRIC TUTOR, not the draw affect in general. I was pointing it out as another reason why vampiric tutor specifically was so strong and potentially stronger than demonic in some cases. Get off your high horse
survival was banned because of vengevine primarily. the decks had gotten so efficient that it was more of a combo eeck than a toolbox deck. still coule be unbanned though
Yeah, weird it wasn't mentioned since that synergy was so powerful it completely took over the metagame. Pros at the time would say things like, "Survival is the best combo deck in Legacy. Survival is the best aggro tool in Legacy. Survival gives Legacy midrange the most advantage. Survival is control's best late game plan in Legacy." Spending only a single mana to turn any creature in your hand into a 4/3 haste is insane and while that's not QUITE what happened, often it was even better since resolving Survival once usually meant tutoring all 4 vines plus Wonder to give them all flying plus whatever other creature you want. Nowadays it might be even better since cards like Solitude and Subtlety have been printed, in addition to other powerful creatures that aren't free like Plague Engineer or Collector Ouphe.
Tinker has the distinction of having it's fixed version precede it. Transmute artifact was the inspiration for tinker. Mark in a Thomas Midgley Jr inspired moment *made it more elegant* and burdened us with this lead-lined nightmare
13:07 goblins is already a very versatile deck it can grind out the game with goblin ringleader, sling-gang lieutenant and aether vial but it can also have a T2 win with goblin lackey into muxus it isnt a brainless aggro deck like it is in other formats even w/o food chain it would be too good since goblins have *conspicous snoop*, which lets u play goblins from the top of ur deck, which when combined with recruiter will make you go +35-ish in card advantage (top of the deck is a skirk prospector, so u could actually dump your whole deck to the battlefield) not to mention tribal decks can run cavern of souls, making all ur creatures uncounterable (assuming you play only one type, obviously), so any attempt to counter the recruiter won't work
Goblins isn't exactly brainless aggro in Modern either. That deck threatens both an aggro plan and two different combo lines, and a lot of the skill to that deck is figuring out what your opponent is more wary of and using that as bait while you win on another axis.
@@fwg1994 nice to know, im not used to modern, but when historic was a thing goblins was a muxus spam deck, with one gameplan: cheese muxus into play on turn 3
@@God-ch8lq Historic goblins is sonewhat more grindy now. They play the new lord and sling-gang and pashalik mons, and fewer of the haste lords. Also they sometimes play that naya alchemy enchantment I forget the name of for value. And there's also some sort of combo version with putrid goblin.
Nice :) I've never found someone talking about tutors in particular! Changing to a topic that someone suggested: Rather than color pie break, what about a colour PAIR break? Like a boros card that counter / mills, or an azorioua that pumps
very random input, but could you include the original printed cards too when you show the reprinted cards? (just put the first print and the new beside each other for 2 seconds or so) it would add some history to it, seeing how old some of these cards actually are. also some "newer" player may be tricked/confused by the modern print. wondering how a "seemingly new" card can be banned for such long time.
Another thing about Mystical Tutor is that it helps those decks like Izzet Delver, since it puts the card on top it guarantees a Delver transformation rather then hoping your top card is an instant or sorcery. And since it was already revealed when you tutored, you're not giving away any more info. So while Mystical might help combo decks, but it also helps the decks that are directly opposed to them. It's also not a bad play if you're holding up mana for a counterspell but didn't actually use that mana, so it would probably see play in quite a few blue decks. And with modal DCFs like Sea Gate Restoration, it could even fetch up a land if you're mana screwed and need to hit your land drop, which may be circumstantial but if you need that one more mana to go off it's definetely something that could happen. So I think it's less likely to be unbanned since it can tutor at instant speed, can grab almost anything you need, and is probably able to slot in several decks already in the format.
Great video, llok forward to more. Survival banned for the interaction with Vengvine and Basking Rootwalla. It let you bring back a bunch of hasty, recursive creatures. Rest in Peace didn't exist yet, so yo had to depend on Layline of the Void. The Survival deck would also play utility creatures to answer Layline and could find them easily thanks the Survival.
tinker would probably create its own deck rather that just slotting into a mud or prison deck. I would imagine something similar to birthing pod in modern, where you have a base 2-3 card infinite combo or hardlock then a bunch of 1-off silver bullet artifacts in mainboard to deal with your opponents likely strategy.
The thing with tutors is that they only get better with time! The more powerful cards that get printed in the present the more powerful these tutors get!
LED can discard your hand for Infernal Tutor, but to be clear for anyone who doesn't know Magic well, you can't put an Infernal Tutor from your hand onto the stack and then try and pay for it with LED, since LED can only be used like an Instant.
Goblin Recruiter could be unbanned honestly. Your turn 2 kill needs a very specific hand of seven cards: 2 lands, a mox, a recruiter, a food chain, any red card and a goblin with cc less than 3. That just doesn't happen very often and if you do go for it, you're extremely vulnerable to any sort of interaction. If they kill or counter your food chain or they kill your recruiter before you get to sac him, you're basically boned even with a less lazy stack.
Yeah, recruiter doesn't really hold a candle to already established combo decks in legacy in 2022. Stacking the deck isn't too time consuming either. Doomsday is way easier to stack now too and doesn't cause time issues.
Goblin Recruiter is a pretty resilient combo kill very much like a red doomsday that you can protect with pyroblast. With Conspicuous Snoop in play you recruiter and put Kikki Jiki on top of your deck, make infinite copies of Snoop, then copy Recruiter and put Mogg Fanatic or Sling Gang Lieutenant on top and kill your opponent. There's different ways to build the piles, for example if you have an extra mana but Snoop is summoning sick, you can put torch courier on top to give Snoop haste, and you can always put another recruiter second or third card down to go again. The deck puts up results in vintage from time to time, where the environment is much more hostile. And you also have the ability to go nuts by cheating Muxus into play. Tldr Goblin Recruiter is probably best left on the banlist
Survival wasn't banned because of generating value off squee and such, those decks existed for many years and while decent in early legacy they were never banworthy. It only became an issue when vengevine was printed, which if it's in your graveyard and you cast two creature spells in a turn brings it back. Vengevine being a 4/3 haste meant you could be attacking for up to 16 damage on turn 3 if you lead with a mana creature like birds of paradise or noble hierarch into survival. Then more combo's were printed with it like necrotic ooze combined with phyrexian devourer and triskelion could just one shot your opponent outside of combat. The biggest issue with survival is that it only really gets better over time as more creatures are printed. Goblin recruiter is probably fine to be unbanned, though I'm not sure how conspicuous snoop would work in the deck with recruiter. Before snoop many people called for it to be unbanned as far back as 2010 because it isn't that good of a combo. They blow up your food chain, counter it, or whatever else and stacking your deck with 20ish goblins could just lose you the game on the spot because drawing them one card at a time it locks you out of your draw step to stop you from drawing lands to play the cards if you lack food chain. Mystical tutor is just better than imperial seal IMO. Only thing it can't fetch in combo decks is LED, but being instant speed is so much better than sorcery. Only downside for mystical tutor is that it's a great pyroblast target. Mystical tutor would be amazing in miracle decks though. Tinker is broken because it's a mana accelerant and a tutor in one card. It, too, only gets better with age as more tinker targets are printed like bolas's citadel. Could never be unbanned and is honestly the best card on this list without a doubt because it's so easy to use tinker on turn 1 or 2 with mox opal, chrome mox, and petal all in the format and mishra's bauble is played a lot too, giving you an artifact to sacrifice.
Goblin recruiter still deserves to be banned, Goblins isn't a mana heavy deck and food chain goblins still sees play alongside b/r goblins. If you manage to hit Muxus you instant win the game.
I was blown away when he said "survival of the fittest is fine for legacy". Survival is absurdly strong and way more consistent than people think if they've never played with it. Vintage Survival is still a very strong deck. Tinker is an absurd card too. Saying "it's questionable" is insane. The question is "is it okay for legacy" the answer is "no".
Some notes: -Survival was not a toolbox deck and really didn't play any of the cards you mentioned. It was a madness tempo deck with a combo finish. There's an argument to be made about it either way but your analysis was kind of irrelevant. -I disagree that Demonic and Vampiric are almost ok. If you've played Vintage you know that for combo decks actual good tutors are an entirely different world from Wishclaw and Infernal. Imperial Seal is a bit closer but I still think it's too good. I think you vastly underestimate how much they would boost the power of combo decks. -Mystical Tutor was banned specifically due to UB Reanimator. Even back then there was a lot of talk about it not deserving a ban. The issue with it and the other good tutors is how they push other cards. Entomb was very strong but Mystical Tutor made it problematic. Would it make Doomsday or Show and Tell problematic now? The existence of powerful tutors just limits the design space of acceptable cards.
Mystical tutor could never be unbanned in legacy. Just taking 2009 legacy ANT with a few minor upgrades here and there would be bonkers because mystical tutor ANT was that good. Reanimator was just the easier deck to play back then because all you had to do was entomb and reanimate a fatty and it usually won you the game and that was before griselbrand was even printed. Mystical tutor reanimator with griselbrand would be broken as hell. Imperial seal is safer than mystical for unbanning, but with reanimator in the picture and storm I don't see it. Survival was a toolbox midrange deck before vengevine, but yeah vengevine and other better creatures just made it broken. I can only imagine that there are dozens more targets for it in legacy in 2022 versus back then in 2010.
@@dark_rit vintage survival was a deck for a while before it just because bazaar turbo. You would just go through Vengevines, Rootwallas, and Hollow Ones.
Miracles having access to mystical tutor seems quite scary at absolute worst, and additionally, giving doomsday access to mystical tutor seems questionable at best. Storm is not far down enough on the tier list to think mystical tutor would not change it as well. Completely agree on demonic and vampiric tutor, though.
You've gotta remember... he doesn't play Magic. He's a guy with a script, and that script was written by a Magic player... it's up for debate on whether or not he's a good Magic player, but that's a tangent. He's a Yu-Gi-Oh player, a game with a power level so high even Vintage players go, "Maybe you guys should chill for a moment".
@@dark_rit Good point about Survival. I should have been more clear that I meant specifically the version that got it banned. Honestly, I'm not even sure that with Mystical UB Reanimator would be better than BR. Looting is really strong and I'm not convinced that counter magic would be superior to the strong discard package.
The reasons you mentioned for Survival being banned weren’t why it was banned. It got banned because people would pitch stuff like Vengevine and get 0 drop creatures like Memnite or Ornithopter or madness creatures to then cast and trigger Vengevine as early as turn 1-2 through mana ramp
Theres way too many ways survival is good that it just needs to stay banned. The fact that it cultivates not just your graveyard or hand, but both makes it really difficult to keep pace with, even if the person using it only can effectively play with one zone effectively.
Yeah, you can literally look at vintage right now, any of the rootwalla decks is made much worse without bazaar, but given it's legacy instead of vintage, can easily just use survival
tbf, EDH kinda needs tutors since it's singleton. Where as having effectively having like...8 copies of say, Thespian's Stage in a Dark Depth's combo deck is kind of bullshit.
Commander banlist is pathetic and has been for a long time. They won't even ban sol ring, which is better than over half the cards on the banlist in commander.
@@muffinoffun1843 Commander doesn't necessarily need tutors outside of high power decks because the format is slow and clunky meaning games aren't over till turn 7-9+ in your standard game. And there's loads of draw and redundancy as if you really need an effect like a sac outlet you can run multiple versions of the same type of effect
I think tutoring is being very underestimated in this video: -Demonic Tutor can't be close if Infernal Tutor is a very good card. -Mystical Tutor isn't close. Instant + searching for both instants and sorceries is a huge upgrade over Personal Tutor to the point the comparison isn't really useful. -Survival combos hard with Vengevine and just any graveyard shenaningans you can think of ON TOP of just being able to bring in whatever answer you need -Tinker is way too much. Although its high target artifacts are much more limited than something like Show and Tell, not having to draw it would make it a huge combo play. You could just slot Tinker in any deck that plays artifacts to get a win out of nowhere, or simply power up the cards you already play like Thought Monitor or Kappa.
Yeah, Demonic is just crazy. Infernal is good, but the fact that you either have to already have the card in your hand or be hellbent is a great limit, the card HAS to matter if it's the only one you have left. Demonic might have a similar, though still higher, ceiling, but the lack of restrictions make the floor insane. In a format with 0-mana interactions paying 2 to get the one you need isn't much, and even if you can't win the game on the spot ensuring you will have a next turn is a very important effect, and makes the fact that, unlike Vampiric, you will have your cards live immediately and during your opponent's turn very relevant.
A Spell card like Demonic Tutor could not exist in Yugioh, at all. Even if it had a hard once per turn and you had to banish a card from your hand, face-down, people would probably still run it at three if they could search, literally, anything from the deck. A version of Vampiric Tutor might not be as bad since it just top decks the card.
In the context of yugioh it undermines the limited and semi limited list a lot indeed because being able to tutor your broken 1 ofs is worth spending 2 cards. Like maybe if you had to banish 2 cards face down to use a demonic tutor effect it would be fine because it would be using 3 cards to get 1 card and is quite susceptible to ash blossom and other hand traps.
Are we ignoring all of the tutors that actually do exist in Yu-Gi-Oh? There's generally one to search for whatever you want, but only one that searches ANYTHING
@@randomcatname7792 There's a difference between a good archetype specific searcher and being able to search out anything. Fossil Dig is a fantastic searcher but it's only useful if you have a dinosaur to search. There are a few Yugioh cards can search anything but they have so many limitations and/or restrictions that no one uses them.
great video, but a bit of a miss on why survival was banned, it was mostly because of vengevine, i too think that it wouldnt be too good, but if you untap with survival you can just 16 your opponent if you have three creatures in your hand as fast as turn two with fast mana, so there is some danger to unban it
Unbanning Mystical Tutor now would make Delver decks much better, though, since it's a cheap spell they can play early that both tutors for the needed interaction and ensures that their Delvers will be flipped.
Interesting. I suppose even in a sacrifice-heavy deck or a deck that wants your creatures to die, it’s a little conditional (requires you to have a creature and be in a position where paying 2 mana and sacrificing it to tutor isn’t too much of a tempo loss).
@@sushimartyr6311 Exactly, and there aren't any tiered decks in legacy that want their creatures to die. To be fair, it's not completely unplayable. Bosh n Roll once played a Legacy version of Yagmoth combo using Intent, but that's definitely not something anyone would bring to a tournament. But the only tiered decks in Legacy that are really interested in tutors is fast combo (Storm, Doomsday, etc.) and their main strength is that they don't need to play creatures.
I do want to point out the three black tutors are much stronger in vintage with the power 9 + mana crypt, which allows for very explosiveturn 2-3 mana. Tutors are a lot weaker in newer formats.
Imho the biggest reason why demonic, vampiric and imperial seal should _not_ be unbanned are somewhat fairer, control/tempo decks. You can make an argument that combo decks would be better, but not hugely better (although I am sure some new, hellish combo would be enabled, since current combos are built around the limitations of their tutors and/or their mana), but a fair, grixis control w/ tutors playing eot vampiric for force or hymn to tourach or some other backbreaking 2-for-1? Or delver having 8 effective wastelands, and being almost guaranteed to drop murktide with force backup on t3 for the low price of a black splash? That's a nightmare.
"Survival is fine". I almost spit out my gum, they tried to let it go in the format and it broke it immediately, it's still an powerful strategy in vintage and with all the utility creatures now like the pitch elementals with a super consistent combo it can grab out of nowhere in legacy absolutely not ok
Dude, how could you mention mystical tutor and not mention the deck that made it banned: Miracles. The same for survival, how could you talk about it and not mention vengevine and basking rootwalla? You didn't even touched the surface of what makes some of these cards broken. The explanation you did with goblin recruiter you could have done with survival.
I guess I'm a noob in MTG who also doesn't understand Legacy, but how the hell can a card like Tinker which can cheat out blightsteel colossus on turn 3, be "close"? Shouldn't it be a hard no?
I'm newish to legacy, and it seems to me that tinker should definitely stay banned, but there're decks like sneak and show already that cheat out emrakul for 3 mana. Or reanimator, which can sometimes get a grisellbrand out on turn 1/often on turn 2.
Blighsteel and even stronger threats can already be cheated out, and blightsteel is by no means impossible to deal with. It also does have a deck building cost
I think this video has few of the bad takes i have seen in this video series. The Survival use cases shown are by far the tamest. The problem was Turn 3 4 vengevines knocking on your door on top of everything the deck could do. And of cause the combo 1 shot with triskelion. Also Mystical Tutor is kinda too good to be unbanned. For Combo its a better Vampiric tutor without lifeloss. I used to play the card. It was too good and even today it seems way to good. Fucking ban Daze already and pull the theth out of Delver and Doomsday. Its a fucking free counterspell with upside FFS
![Explaining All Banned Cards in Modern [Part 1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/aw7yCWymBAo/mqdefault.jpg)
Vampiric Tutor is actually really easy to fix. You just have to make them shuffle after putting a card on top instead of before, problem solved!
It’d be kind of cool if they had one that did that, but have a mechanic that lets you interleave an ability before the shuffle happens so it’s a tutor with an instant speed draw ability/instant.
Kind of like the opposite of split second since it invites abilities to be played between the effects.
That's an Un Set card right there. If it isn't already it should be.
Literally just "2 mana: Verify that a card is in your deck." Love it.
They printed that but it’s red
Then what's the point of tutoring it lol
A video about color pie breaks could be really fun. It's an excuse to talk about the color pie more, and that's always a positive.
he already did that though?
@@6210classick No he didn't? Unless the video is unlisted now, cause I can't find it. Are you sure you're not thinking of every other mtg channel?
ua-cam.com/video/YkdKY3YxXDM/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/YkdKY3YxXDM/v-deo.html
@@Lookalikealagaler open your eyes and scroll down next time
There's another benefit to Mystical Tutor that makes it just as good as Vampiric Tutor, even with the restricted search. It's simple and obvious: Mystical Tutor is blue, meaning it can be used to pay for Force of Will's alternate cost and give you a free counterspell to protect your combo.
Don't forget, with vampiric tutor played right you could pick a card that has miracle and then draw it your next turn to trigger miracle, so sometimes it could be scarier than demonic
He covered that in literally the next section lmao yalls attention span is terrible
@Jeff Sirloin Bruh, call out my comment for lack of attention span when you clearly weren't paying full attention either as I specifically pointed out the miracle combo for JUST VAMPIRIC TUTOR, not the draw affect in general. I was pointing it out as another reason why vampiric tutor specifically was so strong and potentially stronger than demonic in some cases. Get off your high horse
@@jeffsirloin2558 yeah today's youth are dumb as hell
@@vollied4865 ngl its incredibly rare to see someone over 30 be able to form a coherent thought
survival was banned because of vengevine primarily. the decks had gotten so efficient that it was more of a combo eeck than a toolbox deck. still coule be unbanned though
Yeah, weird it wasn't mentioned since that synergy was so powerful it completely took over the metagame. Pros at the time would say things like, "Survival is the best combo deck in Legacy. Survival is the best aggro tool in Legacy. Survival gives Legacy midrange the most advantage. Survival is control's best late game plan in Legacy." Spending only a single mana to turn any creature in your hand into a 4/3 haste is insane and while that's not QUITE what happened, often it was even better since resolving Survival once usually meant tutoring all 4 vines plus Wonder to give them all flying plus whatever other creature you want. Nowadays it might be even better since cards like Solitude and Subtlety have been printed, in addition to other powerful creatures that aren't free like Plague Engineer or Collector Ouphe.
9:24 BRIGHTsteel colossus and BOLASSES Citadel are my favorites
"Bolasses" is a perfectly fine pronunciation for "Bolas's" depending on where you live.
Just wanted to say that Diabolic Tutor has an awesome art
Tinker has the distinction of having it's fixed version precede it. Transmute artifact was the inspiration for tinker. Mark in a Thomas Midgley Jr inspired moment *made it more elegant* and burdened us with this lead-lined nightmare
13:07 goblins is already a very versatile deck
it can grind out the game with goblin ringleader, sling-gang lieutenant and aether vial
but it can also have a T2 win with goblin lackey into muxus
it isnt a brainless aggro deck like it is in other formats
even w/o food chain it would be too good since goblins have *conspicous snoop*, which lets u play goblins from the top of ur deck, which when combined with recruiter will make you go +35-ish in card advantage (top of the deck is a skirk prospector, so u could actually dump your whole deck to the battlefield)
not to mention tribal decks can run cavern of souls, making all ur creatures uncounterable (assuming you play only one type, obviously), so any attempt to counter the recruiter won't work
Goblins isn't exactly brainless aggro in Modern either. That deck threatens both an aggro plan and two different combo lines, and a lot of the skill to that deck is figuring out what your opponent is more wary of and using that as bait while you win on another axis.
@@fwg1994 nice to know, im not used to modern, but when historic was a thing goblins was a muxus spam deck, with one gameplan: cheese muxus into play on turn 3
@@God-ch8lq Historic goblins is sonewhat more grindy now. They play the new lord and sling-gang and pashalik mons, and fewer of the haste lords. Also they sometimes play that naya alchemy enchantment I forget the name of for value. And there's also some sort of combo version with putrid goblin.
Nice :) I've never found someone talking about tutors in particular!
Changing to a topic that someone suggested: Rather than color pie break, what about a colour PAIR break? Like a boros card that counter / mills, or an azorioua that pumps
very random input, but could you include the original printed cards too when you show the reprinted cards? (just put the first print and the new beside each other for 2 seconds or so)
it would add some history to it, seeing how old some of these cards actually are.
also some "newer" player may be tricked/confused by the modern print. wondering how a "seemingly new" card can be banned for such long time.
I like this idea.
Another thing about Mystical Tutor is that it helps those decks like Izzet Delver, since it puts the card on top it guarantees a Delver transformation rather then hoping your top card is an instant or sorcery. And since it was already revealed when you tutored, you're not giving away any more info. So while Mystical might help combo decks, but it also helps the decks that are directly opposed to them. It's also not a bad play if you're holding up mana for a counterspell but didn't actually use that mana, so it would probably see play in quite a few blue decks. And with modal DCFs like Sea Gate Restoration, it could even fetch up a land if you're mana screwed and need to hit your land drop, which may be circumstantial but if you need that one more mana to go off it's definetely something that could happen. So I think it's less likely to be unbanned since it can tutor at instant speed, can grab almost anything you need, and is probably able to slot in several decks already in the format.
Great video, llok forward to more.
Survival banned for the interaction with Vengvine and Basking Rootwalla. It let you bring back a bunch of hasty, recursive creatures. Rest in Peace didn't exist yet, so yo had to depend on Layline of the Void. The Survival deck would also play utility creatures to answer Layline and could find them easily thanks the Survival.
tutors in a lot of card games can be very powerful if done well, as maintaining consistency is always a big deal.
tinker would probably create its own deck rather that just slotting into a mud or prison deck. I would imagine something similar to birthing pod in modern, where you have a base 2-3 card infinite combo or hardlock then a bunch of 1-off silver bullet artifacts in mainboard to deal with your opponents likely strategy.
The thing with tutors is that they only get better with time! The more powerful cards that get printed in the present the more powerful these tutors get!
Love those videos explaining banning!
LED can discard your hand for Infernal Tutor, but to be clear for anyone who doesn't know Magic well, you can't put an Infernal Tutor from your hand onto the stack and then try and pay for it with LED, since LED can only be used like an Instant.
Goblin Recruiter could be unbanned honestly. Your turn 2 kill needs a very specific hand of seven cards: 2 lands, a mox, a recruiter, a food chain, any red card and a goblin with cc less than 3. That just doesn't happen very often and if you do go for it, you're extremely vulnerable to any sort of interaction. If they kill or counter your food chain or they kill your recruiter before you get to sac him, you're basically boned even with a less lazy stack.
Yeah, recruiter doesn't really hold a candle to already established combo decks in legacy in 2022. Stacking the deck isn't too time consuming either. Doomsday is way easier to stack now too and doesn't cause time issues.
Goblin Recruiter is a pretty resilient combo kill very much like a red doomsday that you can protect with pyroblast. With Conspicuous Snoop in play you recruiter and put Kikki Jiki on top of your deck, make infinite copies of Snoop, then copy Recruiter and put Mogg Fanatic or Sling Gang Lieutenant on top and kill your opponent. There's different ways to build the piles, for example if you have an extra mana but Snoop is summoning sick, you can put torch courier on top to give Snoop haste, and you can always put another recruiter second or third card down to go again. The deck puts up results in vintage from time to time, where the environment is much more hostile. And you also have the ability to go nuts by cheating Muxus into play.
Tldr Goblin Recruiter is probably best left on the banlist
Absolutely not especially with the printing of conspicuous snoop
Neat analysis video! Thanks for uploading!
Survival wasn't banned because of generating value off squee and such, those decks existed for many years and while decent in early legacy they were never banworthy. It only became an issue when vengevine was printed, which if it's in your graveyard and you cast two creature spells in a turn brings it back. Vengevine being a 4/3 haste meant you could be attacking for up to 16 damage on turn 3 if you lead with a mana creature like birds of paradise or noble hierarch into survival. Then more combo's were printed with it like necrotic ooze combined with phyrexian devourer and triskelion could just one shot your opponent outside of combat. The biggest issue with survival is that it only really gets better over time as more creatures are printed.
Goblin recruiter is probably fine to be unbanned, though I'm not sure how conspicuous snoop would work in the deck with recruiter. Before snoop many people called for it to be unbanned as far back as 2010 because it isn't that good of a combo. They blow up your food chain, counter it, or whatever else and stacking your deck with 20ish goblins could just lose you the game on the spot because drawing them one card at a time it locks you out of your draw step to stop you from drawing lands to play the cards if you lack food chain.
Mystical tutor is just better than imperial seal IMO. Only thing it can't fetch in combo decks is LED, but being instant speed is so much better than sorcery. Only downside for mystical tutor is that it's a great pyroblast target. Mystical tutor would be amazing in miracle decks though.
Tinker is broken because it's a mana accelerant and a tutor in one card. It, too, only gets better with age as more tinker targets are printed like bolas's citadel. Could never be unbanned and is honestly the best card on this list without a doubt because it's so easy to use tinker on turn 1 or 2 with mox opal, chrome mox, and petal all in the format and mishra's bauble is played a lot too, giving you an artifact to sacrifice.
Goblin recruiter still deserves to be banned, Goblins isn't a mana heavy deck and food chain goblins still sees play alongside b/r goblins. If you manage to hit Muxus you instant win the game.
I was blown away when he said "survival of the fittest is fine for legacy". Survival is absurdly strong and way more consistent than people think if they've never played with it. Vintage Survival is still a very strong deck.
Tinker is an absurd card too. Saying "it's questionable" is insane. The question is "is it okay for legacy" the answer is "no".
@@TomyLopex Goblin Recruiter is super strong but Goblins are so easily hated out of the format.
Some notes:
-Survival was not a toolbox deck and really didn't play any of the cards you mentioned. It was a madness tempo deck with a combo finish. There's an argument to be made about it either way but your analysis was kind of irrelevant.
-I disagree that Demonic and Vampiric are almost ok. If you've played Vintage you know that for combo decks actual good tutors are an entirely different world from Wishclaw and Infernal. Imperial Seal is a bit closer but I still think it's too good. I think you vastly underestimate how much they would boost the power of combo decks.
-Mystical Tutor was banned specifically due to UB Reanimator. Even back then there was a lot of talk about it not deserving a ban. The issue with it and the other good tutors is how they push other cards. Entomb was very strong but Mystical Tutor made it problematic. Would it make Doomsday or Show and Tell problematic now? The existence of powerful tutors just limits the design space of acceptable cards.
Mystical tutor could never be unbanned in legacy. Just taking 2009 legacy ANT with a few minor upgrades here and there would be bonkers because mystical tutor ANT was that good. Reanimator was just the easier deck to play back then because all you had to do was entomb and reanimate a fatty and it usually won you the game and that was before griselbrand was even printed. Mystical tutor reanimator with griselbrand would be broken as hell. Imperial seal is safer than mystical for unbanning, but with reanimator in the picture and storm I don't see it.
Survival was a toolbox midrange deck before vengevine, but yeah vengevine and other better creatures just made it broken. I can only imagine that there are dozens more targets for it in legacy in 2022 versus back then in 2010.
@@dark_rit vintage survival was a deck for a while before it just because bazaar turbo. You would just go through Vengevines, Rootwallas, and Hollow Ones.
Miracles having access to mystical tutor seems quite scary at absolute worst, and additionally, giving doomsday access to mystical tutor seems questionable at best. Storm is not far down enough on the tier list to think mystical tutor would not change it as well.
Completely agree on demonic and vampiric tutor, though.
You've gotta remember... he doesn't play Magic. He's a guy with a script, and that script was written by a Magic player... it's up for debate on whether or not he's a good Magic player, but that's a tangent.
He's a Yu-Gi-Oh player, a game with a power level so high even Vintage players go, "Maybe you guys should chill for a moment".
@@dark_rit Good point about Survival. I should have been more clear that I meant specifically the version that got it banned.
Honestly, I'm not even sure that with Mystical UB Reanimator would be better than BR. Looting is really strong and I'm not convinced that counter magic would be superior to the strong discard package.
The reasons you mentioned for Survival being banned weren’t why it was banned. It got banned because people would pitch stuff like Vengevine and get 0 drop creatures like Memnite or Ornithopter or madness creatures to then cast and trigger Vengevine as early as turn 1-2 through mana ramp
Theres way too many ways survival is good that it just needs to stay banned. The fact that it cultivates not just your graveyard or hand, but both makes it really difficult to keep pace with, even if the person using it only can effectively play with one zone effectively.
Yeah, you can literally look at vintage right now, any of the rootwalla decks is made much worse without bazaar, but given it's legacy instead of vintage, can easily just use survival
Legacy: Nooo you can't just seach your library for any card you want! >:(
Commander: Haha consistency go brrrrr :D
tbf, EDH kinda needs tutors since it's singleton. Where as having effectively having like...8 copies of say, Thespian's Stage in a Dark Depth's combo deck is kind of bullshit.
@@muffinoffun1843 urza's saga into expedition map goes brrrr
imo tutors make the format boring, also all that wasted time shuffling a 100 card deck sucks
Commander banlist is pathetic and has been for a long time. They won't even ban sol ring, which is better than over half the cards on the banlist in commander.
@@muffinoffun1843 Commander doesn't necessarily need tutors outside of high power decks because the format is slow and clunky meaning games aren't over till turn 7-9+ in your standard game. And there's loads of draw and redundancy as if you really need an effect like a sac outlet you can run multiple versions of the same type of effect
I think tutoring is being very underestimated in this video:
-Demonic Tutor can't be close if Infernal Tutor is a very good card.
-Mystical Tutor isn't close. Instant + searching for both instants and sorceries is a huge upgrade over Personal Tutor to the point the comparison isn't really useful.
-Survival combos hard with Vengevine and just any graveyard shenaningans you can think of ON TOP of just being able to bring in whatever answer you need
-Tinker is way too much. Although its high target artifacts are much more limited than something like Show and Tell, not having to draw it would make it a huge combo play. You could just slot Tinker in any deck that plays artifacts to get a win out of nowhere, or simply power up the cards you already play like Thought Monitor or Kappa.
Yeah, Demonic is just crazy.
Infernal is good, but the fact that you either have to already have the card in your hand or be hellbent is a great limit, the card HAS to matter if it's the only one you have left. Demonic might have a similar, though still higher, ceiling, but the lack of restrictions make the floor insane.
In a format with 0-mana interactions paying 2 to get the one you need isn't much, and even if you can't win the game on the spot ensuring you will have a next turn is a very important effect, and makes the fact that, unlike Vampiric, you will have your cards live immediately and during your opponent's turn very relevant.
Mystical tutor would likely see play in Delver as it can guarantee Delver flips by using it in response to the upkeep trigger
A Spell card like Demonic Tutor could not exist in Yugioh, at all. Even if it had a hard once per turn and you had to banish a card from your hand, face-down, people would probably still run it at three if they could search, literally, anything from the deck. A version of Vampiric Tutor might not be as bad since it just top decks the card.
In the context of yugioh it undermines the limited and semi limited list a lot indeed because being able to tutor your broken 1 ofs is worth spending 2 cards. Like maybe if you had to banish 2 cards face down to use a demonic tutor effect it would be fine because it would be using 3 cards to get 1 card and is quite susceptible to ash blossom and other hand traps.
Are we ignoring all of the tutors that actually do exist in Yu-Gi-Oh?
There's generally one to search for whatever you want, but only one that searches ANYTHING
@@randomcatname7792 There's a difference between a good archetype specific searcher and being able to search out anything. Fossil Dig is a fantastic searcher but it's only useful if you have a dinosaur to search. There are a few Yugioh cards can search anything but they have so many limitations and/or restrictions that no one uses them.
Amazing!
the funniest situation is when you Demonic or Vampiric for....a basic land....
ngl sometimes I want to do that with Grim Tutor
great video, but a bit of a miss on why survival was banned, it was mostly because of vengevine, i too think that it wouldnt be too good, but if you untap with survival you can just 16 your opponent if you have three creatures in your hand as fast as turn two with fast mana, so there is some danger to unban it
Unbanning Mystical Tutor now would make Delver decks much better, though, since it's a cheap spell they can play early that both tutors for the needed interaction and ensures that their Delvers will be flipped.
Mystical tutor would break legacy. Doomsday would be insane with 4 mystical.
I’m not sure if it’s allowed in Legacy, but Diabolic Intent is Demonic Tutor with the added cost of sacrificing a creature.
It is legal, and too weak to see play.
Interesting. I suppose even in a sacrifice-heavy deck or a deck that wants your creatures to die, it’s a little conditional (requires you to have a creature and be in a position where paying 2 mana and sacrificing it to tutor isn’t too much of a tempo loss).
@@sushimartyr6311 Exactly, and there aren't any tiered decks in legacy that want their creatures to die. To be fair, it's not completely unplayable. Bosh n Roll once played a Legacy version of Yagmoth combo using Intent, but that's definitely not something anyone would bring to a tournament. But the only tiered decks in Legacy that are really interested in tutors is fast combo (Storm, Doomsday, etc.) and their main strength is that they don't need to play creatures.
Just pulled a vampiric tutor today on a dominaria remastered draft, obscenely broken card
I do want to point out the three black tutors are much stronger in vintage with the power 9 + mana crypt, which allows for very explosiveturn 2-3 mana.
Tutors are a lot weaker in newer formats.
Imho the biggest reason why demonic, vampiric and imperial seal should _not_ be unbanned are somewhat fairer, control/tempo decks.
You can make an argument that combo decks would be better, but not hugely better (although I am sure some new, hellish combo would be enabled, since current combos are built around the limitations of their tutors and/or their mana), but a fair, grixis control w/ tutors playing eot vampiric for force or hymn to tourach or some other backbreaking 2-for-1?
Or delver having 8 effective wastelands, and being almost guaranteed to drop murktide with force backup on t3 for the low price of a black splash?
That's a nightmare.
During the mystical tutor part: shuffle the card and put it on top of your deck.
That's. Ot quite what happens but it would be a way to fix it.
It already goes on top of the deck
Can't imagine what yugioh would've been like with a card that just read "add a card from your deck to your hand"
"Survival is fine". I almost spit out my gum, they tried to let it go in the format and it broke it immediately, it's still an powerful strategy in vintage and with all the utility creatures now like the pitch elementals with a super consistent combo it can grab out of nowhere in legacy absolutely not ok
Dude, how could you mention mystical tutor and not mention the deck that made it banned: Miracles. The same for survival, how could you talk about it and not mention vengevine and basking rootwalla? You didn't even touched the surface of what makes some of these cards broken. The explanation you did with goblin recruiter you could have done with survival.
Huh... So THATS where the term tutoring came from... Its always fun to learn history in games
and also recruiter ban is mainly due to goblin charbelcher
Next!
1994
I always forget how long magic has been around. Incredible
Haven't watched yet, but is the answer to why they're banned, "They let you tutor things"
Wow survival is not fine
I LOVE YOUR VOICE!!! TELLL ME A SLEEPYTIME STORY!!!
talk about banned cards in edh/commmender
How do you cast food chain with only 2 mana?
The mox on turn 1, remember?
@@flabberjiggles4825 mox is only used for goblin recruiter and then sacrificed isn't it?
@@HazhMcMoor chrome mox doesn't get sacrificed
"Brightsteel Colossus"
I guess I'm a noob in MTG who also doesn't understand Legacy, but how the hell can a card like Tinker which can cheat out blightsteel colossus on turn 3, be "close"? Shouldn't it be a hard no?
I'm newish to legacy, and it seems to me that tinker should definitely stay banned, but there're decks like sneak and show already that cheat out emrakul for 3 mana. Or reanimator, which can sometimes get a grisellbrand out on turn 1/often on turn 2.
Blighsteel and even stronger threats can already be cheated out, and blightsteel is by no means impossible to deal with. It also does have a deck building cost
Tinker can be cast on Turn 1 with fast mana. It's not a close. It's a hell no.
@@energeticgorilla
See that's how I know I'm a noob in magic, I didn't know cheating out those giants was that easy
Blightsteel is a pretty crappy tinker target. Usually the best is something like Bolas Citadel
Survival would definitely break Legacy again. None of the uses you mentioned were why it was banned.
Survival got banned because of vengevine
most couldn be unbanned by limiting them to a single copy
Brightsteel lol, this guy doesn't even read the cards he's talking about.
The fact these are banned but force of will and daze arent is a complete joke
IZZ-et
I think this video has few of the bad takes i have seen in this video series. The Survival use cases shown are by far the tamest. The problem was Turn 3 4 vengevines knocking on your door on top of everything the deck could do. And of cause the combo 1 shot with triskelion.
Also Mystical Tutor is kinda too good to be unbanned. For Combo its a better Vampiric tutor without lifeloss. I used to play the card. It was too good and even today it seems way to good.
Fucking ban Daze already and pull the theth out of Delver and Doomsday. Its a fucking free counterspell with upside FFS
Tutors make the game boring.