Nitto Ridge Grappler 255/80 R17
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- Опубліковано 30 лип 2024
- #tacoma overland
Hi, I'm mike and today we're going to talk about Tires. I know this channel has been kinda gear focused, but nothing takes you out of an outdoor adventure like getting stuck, or having to turn around cause you can't make it to the trailhead. And nothing is more likely to ruin your trip than the tires on whatever vehicle you're taking to get there.
For the most part, when you choose tires you have to decide between two basic tread patterns All-Terrain or Mud Terrain. Generally, All-Terrain tires are less aggressive, quieter and more fuel efficient. Mud Terrains have more traction from bigger blocks with bigger gaps between blocks to squeeze mud out and keep digging in sticky mud.
If you want a full breakdown of the differences between Mud and All-Terrrain, check out this video Harry and I did for the Driving Line Channel that compares the two on dirt, snow and rocks. We don't have mud here in Reno.
Speaking of Driving Line, these tires were sent to my by Driving Line so that this vehicle could be used in the videos we produce for Driving Line. Those videos are a paid gig and the channel is sponsored by Nitto so this will mean I don't have to blur out my BFGs again when they show up in one of the videos. Check those out over on the Driving Line UA-cam Channel
Hybrid Terrain Tire
So for the last few years manufacturers have been making what they call a hybrid terrain or R/T tire that combines the big tread blocks and voids of a Mud Tire with the siping and efficiency of an All-Terrain. I actually shot a promo for Kenda's R/T out in St. George a year or so ago.
I decided to go with this tire primarily for size reasons. I wanted to try the 255/80 R17 and this is the tire that they had in that size.
This size, commonly referred to as the "pizza cutter", is 33" tall and about 8" wide at the tread surface and 10" wide at the casing. It's only about 1cm narrower, nominally, than the stock tires, but 2 inches taller.
They're also taller than a 285/70 17 which many Tacoma owners like to run. How can that be? Well, it's because the first number, 255 is the width in millimeters of the tread of the tire. The second number is the height of the sidewall as a percentage of the tread width. so the side wall is 80% of the width. The third number is the diameter of the wheel in inches.
So find a tire size calculator to find the tru diameter of the tire and you get about 33" for these.
There are various advantages to going with a narrow tire like this for a vehicle as light as a Tacoma.
First is weight. This tire is only 10 pounds heavier than the BFGs I have on it now. Rolling mass has a great effect on the performance and efficiency of a vehicle and keeping it as low as you can is a good idea.
Second is rolling resistance. The narrower tire has less contact and less friction with the road surface and should get better mileage.
The Tire
These tires are LT255/80R17 E 121/118Q
The LT stands for Light Truck rating. The Tires that come on a Tacoma are P, for passenger car rating.
The E stands for Load Range E and these are rated for a 10 ply sidewall. That means the sidewall is stiffer and thicker than the tires that come stock on a Tacoma and will be able to carry a heavier load and resist puncture. They'll also be heavier and rougher riding than stock.
the 121/118 is the load rating and these are rated for 3195# at 80 PSI.
The Q is the speed range and these are rated for 99 MPH. Though if this truck ever goes that fast it'll probably be falling off a cliff.
Tire Design:
Like most tires these days the tread pattern on the Ridge Grapplers is designed to be quiet. They do this be setting the tread blocks so that the sound waves come off out of phase so they cancel out. It's kind of like how noise-canceling headphones work.
The tread pattern has a criss-cross design with big center daggers and blocky side lugs set apart with big voids like a mud tire.
But like an all-terrain tire, the lugs are cut with thin sipes to aid in flexing of the tire, and evacuation of water.
The side lugs are staggered to provide more grip and the tread blocks have various features to aid in grip and ejection of rocks and mud.
Like most aggressive off road tires, these have tread lugs built into the sidewall. This will be especially important for such a narrow tire, and certainly help protect the tire when I air them way way down.
Unlike most other tires however, they have different sidewall tread patterns on either side. One side is simpler and less aggressive, while the other is more detailed and aggressive. So you can choose which side shows to the world when you mount them up.
I don't know that it matters much from a performance standpoint. It's random where the tire is going to need grip. Nitto doesn't make any claim as to which is better and lists this as a design feature not a performance feature. - Авто та транспорт
Pizza cutters are highly underrated
Unpopular opinion is they look good too
yep....I ran cooper st maxx 255 85 r16 on my brand new 19 TRD OR in so cal on stock components. They were great we never got stuck!. Now im lifted roughly 1.5 inches front and rear on Toyo MT 255 85r16 and the toyo are even better (every where). We live in South west Montana now and they are stuck like velcro even in winter. I think its because the skinny tire puts more psi to the ground. My winter trick is to run28psi cold and also 300lbs of cement in the back. We have a friend running the toyo rt in the 255 80 17 size and he says hes never going back also!. good video. If anyone is on the fence just do it! you wont go back to short fat tires!!
I just got myself a 2023 TRD OR Tacoma. I am looking at using the same size 255/85R16 without a lift and it’s hard to find any videos on this subject. I also don’t need anything over Load Range C and that is the hardest thing to find.
Did you mount the Coopers on your stock rims? I don’t really want to have to spend a few thousand on 0mm off set rims so I don’t get rubbing.
Thanks for the great information man. Been trying to figure out what ones to get for along time now. Always been buying mickey Thompson
wow now i understand the height of a tire! super easy
Dope hat . Ordering now
Great! See you on the trail!
Reno!? Make a summer trail run event happen my friend ;) I’m all game for that :)
Nice video....I'm a fan of pizza cutter tires and often they're a little better priced, plus you can gain some clearance with oversized (overall diameter) tires. There are two lines of thought....a slimmer tire puts more weight on the smaller footprint, while a wider footprint (less weight per sq/in) affords better "float" and all this totally depends on the terrain which varies greatly. All this as long as they're flush with the fenders....nothing inside the fenders, that's where I draw the line!
Skinny tires have a longer contact patch while wider tires have a wider contact patch. The contact patch size difference is largely irrelevant and can be easily adjusted for by adjusting psi by ~1 psi.
Excellent video
I like to see these videos even if it’s a couple years out. I’ve run lots of different sizes but I love 255/80r17 Toyo Open Country AT3s on my Jeep rubicon. Great everywhere off-road and on. Great on snow and ice too
I'm thinking of the AT3s in the size for my 4Runner. Did you notice the ride being any firmer than the stock tires? I'm really uncertain about putting a load range E on a 4Runner, I really don't want a harsh ride from them.
@@trailrunnah8886 they ride great. 2 ply sidewalls and overall tire weight make a difference. I run them at 37 pounds cold
@@contemporaryprimitiveman3469 great, thanks for the info! I'm hoping the narrow width and relatively low weight (50lbs) will help keep the mileage and driveability close to stock.
@@trailrunnah8886 they don't ride like an E range tire. They are much better than the 2 ply BFG KMs I had before.
I pull a 14' fishing boat and motor on trailer in and out of a lake that nobody else can get to unless its on foot with a kayak or canoe. I have to back in until my exhaust is bubbling and the water is licking my rock rails. When I pull out and up the steep trail that I cut I barely spin a tire. Jeep 4 door Rubicon.
gonna run this size on my first gen, thankyou!
I love my Nitto 255/80 R17 on my GX460 (2.5 inch lift) I am still getting 16mpg (fully loaded with 1000 LBs of gear/equipment) on the highway, sometimes 17mpg if it's a long flat highway. Off road performance has been great. Noise level is minimal. 20k miles on the tires so far.
Do ya know if these would improve or decrease gas mileage from stock on the 460? Currently getting 21.5-22mpg on the highway, and that's in East TN where nothing's flat for too long.
@@knoxcreole. it will decrease 2-3 mpg. These tires are 15-20lbs heavier than stock. They are around 55lbs per tire. The heavier the tire, it will have an impact on your MPG. The wider the tire also have an impact on your MPG. People generally gets 12mpg if they are running 35s
These work great in stock Wrangler JK’s with no rubbing
The world of tires is a wild one. So many variables. Gets confusing fast.
I just put the 255-85-16r On my Tacoma gen3 it looks amazing it fits perfect
Which 3rd Gen? Stock suspension?
Sr5 4x4
i have a 2020 sr 4x2 and planning to get the same tires. any issues when going easy/med off roading? thanks
For your information. I found 2 other small errors in your presentation. The first is in the 255/80, the 255 number is the section width of the tire and the 80 is the percentage of the section width, for the height of the sidewall. The 121/118 for the load index of the tire. The 121 number is for tires installed as singles on the vehicle. The 118 number is for tires installed as duals on the vehicle. Each dual tire carries less weight than one installed as a single. There is a formula to compute how much weight for each number in the load index chart. Example: X number = X pounds per tire. I found your video informative and will subscribe to your channel. Guy Franks
Great review, I'm in a gmc canyon with the fox 2.0 suspension level and I am thinking about doing a similar set up. Stock I have 265/60r18 (30.5 x 18) and I would like to go 255/70r18 (32.1 x 18). How has the handling been with the narrower tires? I am looking at doing light off road. Is there a good AT tire that can handle snow and gravel roads well that isn't much heavier then oem tires? Also I used to have general grabber AT tires on my old silverado that were 6 ply that kept the weight lower. Is ply a big deal for light off road duty? Thanks!
No handling issues with the skinnys. You can get a 6ply C rated or 8 ply D rated but they’re less common.
BFG Ko2 or Nitto terra grappler are great AT both are three peak rated.
@@AllTerrainFamily Thanks for the quick reply!
@@desertdrz7618 General Grabbers ATX has more value than Ko2. Tirerack has a rating system
Looking to replace my 255/70/17 firestone mt2 with these but I heard from one guy they suck in snow and chipped easy. Anyone confirm?
I wonder if I could fit these on my stock 1st gen sequoia
This a new concept of pizza cutter. Back in my days pizza cutters were 6.0 x 16 (28 inches tall)and 9.5 x 16 (32 inches tall). These new tires look fairly wide to me.
Nice truck man. Are those the method 703’s? Super nice looking wheels. I am about to pull the trigger on wheels I’m torn between the method 703 and the black rhino stadium. Any thoughts?
The 703 have the Bead Grip for lower pressure. I did a whole video on them a few back in the feed.
That’s what I thought I like the look of the wheels a lot. I’ll check out the video thank you 👍🏻
great info on a well done video- thank you for putting your time into this. My question is did these fit without any modification and do you think that these will they fit on a 2" front 1" rear lifted 5th generation 4runner without a hassle?
I think a lift would be best. I don’t see it fitting without trimming.
Check out @TinkerersAdventure. He has great videos on lifts and tires for 4Runners. He says you don’t necessarily need lift to fit bigger tires. Depending on the wheel and tire combo. It’s easier to fit skinnier tires with less offset without doing much trimming if at all
@@79travisdee Yes. I am familiar with his videos. These Methods are not stock offset, and I'm sure that's why I still had rubbing.
How much of a lift do you have to run this size and did you do any cutting of the cab mount?
2” lift. No CMC.
@@AllTerrainFamily outstanding! I have the Eibach 2 inch. Looks like it’s pizza time!
Any updates on the tires after nearly a year? Things you like? Things you don't? Road noise? Handling? Would you buy again? Also, thanks for all the great content! I'm waiting on my Contour Canopy from Alu-Cab to come in and going to do a platform and drawer set up like yours in the back of my 2020 TRD OR !
I think I would go with the AT next time. The ridge grappllers are good but not great in snow and low traction situations. I do a bit if snow driving and the ATs are three peak rated.
@@AllTerrainFamily Thanks for the follow up info! Love the channel keep up the amazing content!
@@AllTerrainFamily any plans to check out those new Mickey Thompson boss A/T’s? It’s an R/T that’s 3 peak snow rated. Unfortunately they don’t have 255/80R17 only 255/85 or 285/70’s.
Nope.
@@Seattle808 If they were $300-400 cheaper a set maybe... I wish there was more in that size. Or a 235/85/17 or something.
Awesome, I’m running 285/70r17 trail grapplers, my next tire is going to be a 35x11.5 (same width as current) trail grapplers aswell try out more of a pizza cutter tire
I have this size in the Falken WildPeak AT on my Ram 2500 and have been happy with the off pavement performance and good highway mpg
i wonder how these compare to my cooper st maxx pizza cutters -i like tge grapplers are slightly taller, but looks like that tread isn’t deep enough for pnw
What size are your methods? I just ordered some 701 17x8.5 and am now debating on 285:70/17's or 255/80/17s What would you suggest? I do mostly commuting and then weekend fun. I am looking at the toyo open country at3
They are the same as yours. The 255s are going to be lighter and better on pavement. They aren’t weird looking on the Tacoma as far as the width goes.
@@AllTerrainFamily Thanks! I am leaning towards the skinnier tire for sure. Weight, rolling resistance ect. are all a factor. I am sure similarly to you. This is my daily commuter and family vehicle. So there is more to consider than just off-roading :)
Do you think there would be any rubbing/issues if you run these on a stock with no lift 2019 Tacoma sport
Yes
Would these tires work well on a 4x4 Dually? I love KO2’s as well. I’d like to have a tall tire on my dually to cut the rpm on the highway. Thanks for the info.
I don’t know. Probably since they’re narrow.
I would be willing to bet that this exact size and load rating was what those tires are intended for...
It is indeed thier intended use yes
Yes, Tim Van Winkle.
I’m currently running 255/80 r17’s on my dually without any clearance issues or spacers. You can see what they look like on my 2016 Cummins drw.
*I have adjusted the tire diameter through my tuner in the obd-2 port at 33.1 inches.
Are you using stock gearing? How has it affected economy and acceleration? How’s the truck handling on and Offroad with the narrow tall tires?
I was on stock Gears, and it wasn’t great. Not horrible ans still useable. Did a couple off road trips like that. I just broke in the new 4.88 Nitros and they are much much better in every way.
@@AllTerrainFamilyI’ve seen a lot of info that even with stock tires on a Tacoma 4.88’s are better anyway to keep from transmission hunting.
@2:00 highly suggest to also pay attention to make and model of the tires if you are looking for the diameter vs just the tire size. For example a 255/80 Cooper Discoverer ST Maxx is 32.8in taller vs there are lot of 285/70 tires which are over 33+in tall like Toyo M55, Nitto Trail Grappler that are 33.15in or Cooper SST Pro 33.03in, etc.. But be warned the list is HUGE for 285 options you have which also make your brain fry selecting SL/ XL / Load C / D / E. Then with 3PMSF rating and without, etc..😀😀
@3:36 another correction, Load E means 10ply rated main tread, not the sidewall. Side wall also depend from make and model of the tires. Some are 2ply and some are 3ply.
So how are the tires now that you’ve had them for a couple of months?
Good. Not the best on ice. But overall I like them.
nice hat bro
I have a question for you I’m going to slap a set of 255/80r17 on my Tacoma I have a 2 and 1/2 inch lift front and rear with a 0 offset wheel will I run into any rubbing problems with this size tire?
Probably not. Minimal if any.
Right on that’s good to hear.
Mike could you share mpg for before and after re-gear? I have a 2021 TRD off road DCLB with camper shell used as a DD and weekend camping vehicle. I am Wanting to install 255/85/16s but scared I will retreat the gas mileage. Also if you had to do again would you gear first and what was your reasoning on 4.88 over the 5.29?
Here’s the deal. The mileage did not improve with the regear. The mileage improved when i calibrated the speedometer. I’m at 16-18mpg now. Was 14-16 before speedometer cal. Garbage in, garbage out.
4.88 gearing is still lower than stock even with the 33” tires. 5.29 only makes sense of you go to 35” tires or really want to rock crawl.
Thanks for the response. It is hard digging through all the internet opinions to get some true data.
Really enjoying you channel so far. Keep the awesome content.
Im looking at the Baja Boss AT in about a 34". I have a 4th Gen 4Runner and its on the heavier end
I was considering the 295/70-17, but is this considered narrorow? Or should I try something more narrow?
Mainly as a daily driver and weekend offroading. Nothing too extreme. But since its a daily driver, I need something good for winter
I wouldn’t consider 295 particularly narrow.
@@AllTerrainFamily Yeah, looking more into it, its a bit wide. But it is the tire I prefer, unless I drop down from a 34 to a 33 tire, or get a diff set of tires like the Toyo Open Country AT3s.
@@AllTerrainFamily I was looking at this tire size, but I cant find rims for them. It recommends a rim width of up to 8" wide. I cant find anything as its usually an 8.5.
I was going to get the Reika R35 Ramblers, 17x9 -12, but this wont fit on the 255/80 17 Baja Boss ATs
Would you prefer this pizza cutter on a Jeep Commander eather getting a 285/70 r17? Thanks.
I don’t know anything about a jeep commander.
Great video, well done guys, thanks. Can I mount 255/80R17 on a 17x9 wheel? Should I?
Check the wheel recommendation from the tire manufacturer.
6.5" to 8.5" are the recommended wheel widths - but you could stretch the tire a bit more like the sport compacts did 20 yrs ago and chew the wheel beads off with rocks - j/k don't. You might sell the nines and find an 8"
haha, thanks@@applesbighatranch6906 I am staying with the stock ones still, with a 255/80R17. I kinda like this wheeks, but with the 3" lifted suspension I would like to push the tires a bit out, so thought about looking for some good off set wheels to avoid spacers.
What wheel width are you running these tires on?
8.5”
Nice I'm going with stock 17x8 new ford ranger and my friend has 17x7 I think on his taco 8.5 would be the max to run on a 255
Great video. What BF Goodrich are you using in you Tacoma? The ones you mentioned in this video.
The KO2 all terrain.
@@AllTerrainFamily what size? I wanna try out some
Pizza cutters on my Tacoma without a lift. Could I get away with tires around 33” and 10” width?
@@morF1ni Check out @TinkerersAdventure to answer your second question. The first, BFG does not make a pizza cutter in a 33. They have a 34x10.5. But that seems big for no lift.
What size I meant on your tacoma KO2s@@AllTerrainFamily Thanks!
@@morF1ni I had been running the stock size KO2.
I can’t wait to get my 285s down so I can put some 255s on 😊
Time for some burnouts?
@@AllTerrainFamily hahaa
sell it dude someone like you before would be happy to buy it
Out here on the farmland of SoCal farm tractors track through the thickest of mud with ease using tall skinny tires.
There are other factors. Like the fact that the skinniest traxtor tires are still wider than most truck tires. Also tractor tires hit bottom before the belly does, which isn’t feasible on a truck. Also trucks basically have no torque at all compared to a tractor. So I don’t see the tractor tire comparison having a lot of relevance to most truck situations.
Did these nitto 255/80r17 rub? Are you still riding stock suspension ?
Running a 2.5” lift and they to rub the fender liner a little.
Are your 8.5 wheels 0 offset or are they negative?
0
Thinking about running these tires but I have a -10offset.
You should be fine
Old news, now if they were offered in a C rating. Even skinnier, the 235/85R16 is also fantastic in winter for stock height trucks.
ur cool
What kind of lift do you have?
Old Man Emu BP 51.
You have any rubbing issues?
There is some rubbing of the plastic fender liners. Bot much.
Do you think these would fit in the stock spare tire location on a 3rd gen 4Runner?
Probably not. But only if you don’t have a trailer hitch.
@@AllTerrainFamily that would be sweet if it did!
Don’t hold your breath, a 32 doesn’t fit with the hitch. It also hits the track bar.
@@AllTerrainFamily maaaaybe if it was aired down really low???
Just looking for a way to have that sized tire and not have to get a swingout bumper for the back...ie trying to be a cheapskate.
Do you think that, in a pinch, you could just use a stock tire as a spare for a little bit?
People do it.
Are you running a 3” lift?
More like 2.5
how are they in rain? I’ve been reading horror stories about rain performance (i’m in the south- hurricanes)
Not great in wet and slick surfaces.
I wish Nitto would make more C load, pizza cutter sized tires. Their 35x11.5r17 Trail Grappler is a great idea, but it would be perfect in 37x11.5r17 C load. Even a 35x10.5 C load would work for most Toyota's too.
The E tires are pretty compliant, the rock footage here was do e at 20psi. That’s softer than I expected.
Ya the only 35/10.5/17 & 33/10.5/17 I found where Kenda klever RT but weight a lot so I'm going with falcon Wildpeak a/t3w LT255/80R17 speed rating s 106 and weights only 50lb 33.1" vs my stock 40lb 30" 265/65/17
Will the 255/80 fit on a taco that has a 2inch spacer lift in the front and 1inch in the rear and on -12 offset rims ? Or will I have to do some cutting ?
Only one way to find out.
@@AllTerrainFamilyhow much lift do you have on the taco in this video? I love how your setup looks !
@@maximusklyuchits5153 It's about 2 inches more or less.
Amateur here but are these good for just road? I just love the look of them not very off road person just here and there. Thanks
The size is. But if you’re not going to go off road look for a P tire or a C rated tire.
Do you get better gas mileage? I mean that's not a core factor in selecting this particular tire, but surely isn't a bad thing if I happen to get better fuel mileage. Just recently checking these out from a forum post, never thought of going skinnier, but really it's only one size from stock's 265 and much taller without killing rolling mass and the extra strain on the steering components, I am really liking this potential option. Heck, if I don't like them, I only have to deal with them for 2-2.5 years🤣
They are too heavy. I get better mileage with the 285/70 r17 nitto recon grapplers in a LT casing.
255/75/17 on my 4Runner because it’s what all the jeep people immediately ditch for 35s and I get them CHEAP
I’m convinced pizza cutter tires are the way to go.
Do you happen to know a good pizza cutter tire for 16 inches stock Tacoma wheels?
255/85r16 are the same size
Yep. Couldn’t get that from Nitto though.
@@AllTerrainFamily they only make M/T in that size.
are the "pizza cutters" any good in deep snow?
Too many variables. Short answer is it depends on how heavy your vehicle is and how deep the snow is.
Love the pizza cutters myself
255/80R17 nitto can fit ford e150?
I wouldn’t know.
Yes! I put a set of 255/80R17 Toyo AT3's on my 18 F150. They fit perfect, I didn't need to install any spacers or lifts, no rubbing, using stock f150 17x7.5 wheels.
Can’t remember the brand, but searching for a tall and skinny A/T tire I came across a 235/85/r16. Maybe a BFG? I didn’t know whether to laugh… or buy it. That’s a ludicrously skinny tire for that height lol.
And I can’t decide if it would work well and look rad, or be utter crap and look hilarious 🤷♂️
Everybody loves pizza!
How was the MPG affected?
1-2 MPG with the lift, tires, gears and speedometer calibrator. Was getting 17 - 19 now getting 16-18.
How would you rate the on road comfort compared to the c load on pavement?
I have no experience with c load tires on this vehicle.
I use 235/85/17 on a '22 colorado. 255 is not much of a pizza cutter but then nor are my 235s
It’s a figure of speech. You wouldn’t actually want to cut pizza with a truck tire.
If only there was a 35R15 pizza cutter snow tire. Duratrac's would be my first choice but a KO2 would be ok too...
There’s a 34/10.5 KO2.
Duratracs suck. They eventually chop and are so loud they sound like your bearings and diffs are grinding
Baja boss A/T 255/85R17,don't know about the snow performance (they had the 3PMSF) but they are tall skinnies 35s.
We want 255/85r17
Mickey thompson makes it
Need a warning for those of us with epilepsy. All the green flashing is really bad and there is a lot of it.
Not sure what your issue is but probably UA-cam was glitching or your internet connection. There’s no green flashing in this video.
I stopped watching cuz of that hat.
Glad to hear it.
dude lemme get those pizza cutters, I have a set of mickey thompsons baja 285s ill trade you, we can meet at the gsr
Then I’d have to blur them out in the Driving Line videos again!
@@AllTerrainFamily poop, yeah thats true. Guess you win. plan to do any DV videos?
The first number isn't the tread width, it's the section width
Yeah. For simplicity’s sake that’s kinda the same thing. Point is saying, “i have 285s” doesn’t tell you anything .
@@AllTerrainFamily maybe similar but not kinda the same.
Because, a 275/40/20 will have much more tread touching the road versus a 275/60/20 for example.
The average Joe may not realize that but it is in fact not measure the tread width.
Just clarifying, enjoyed the video!
Wow! Noticed your weird hat half way through. Why would you wear that?
Why wouldn’t I?
@@AllTerrainFamily It odd to call out a specific race when every race goes camping here in America. What next, "black people buy groceries too"? You aren't even black. Just seems out of place and out of touch.
www.blackfolkscamptoo.com/
I wish they made a C rated tire in that size
What does that hat even mean?
Beware though…pizza cutter size is not that common. If u get a flat or need a new one,it could take weeks or months to order them in.
That may be true, but I think a lot of dually trucks run these.
My local discount actually had these in stock
fat tires create a front barrier between the mud and rocks slowing the vehicle actually having stuck on its own. fat tires good for looks with all its dis advantages like fuel, weight sluggish vehicle mud on the fenders and burden on the drivetrain and steering
Spoon
Tell me you don't actually know what you're talking about without telling me