9:50 "Elevators not jammed verification" Yes, that's an update everyone will read carefully. It's right up there with "wings firmly attached verification".
How do you do a visual inspection of the control surfaces and not see that the elevator is jammed? There it is, right there in the photo 10:28. OMG Somebody was asleep.
@@MrPLC999Seeing the elevator on that model in the down position is not evidence that it is jammed. The elevators are moved by trim tabs and air flow, not hydraulics, except for down elevator. Taxi behind one and you might see the elevators moving in different directions!
On a DC9 or MD80, you are only moving the control tabs with the yoke, except when pushing full forward which engages elevator power and a blue annunciator light indicates that elevator power is working. The elevators can move up and down with the wind so I suppose that the bulletin is effective because the elevators probably are weighted to te up normally. @@robertcraig5037
Boeing charges extra for their aircraft to be viewed with Mark II eyeballs anyway, and pilots are not informed about the Mark II eyeball requirement. That would require retraining.
I'm sure nothing can go wrong with a pilot verifying something up tall on the rear of the aircraft. It's totally not like the crash already happened due to a pilot missing the jammed elevator
I was doing my preflight on a B757 years ago when I noticed the elevator was not in the marked neutral position. Upon entering the cockpit, the elevator trim showed that it was. A clear discrepancy! When maintenance was notified, aircraft was grounded for repair.
Such things must not be left to chance -- Maintenance crew ought to inspect such things -- and inspectors ought to check the work of the maintenance crew. Measurement?
Why must we rely on luck? Why must we rely on the user of plane to find -- and then to read -- and then to implement -- the up-dated safety bulletin? Ought Boeing and the FAA NOT to COMPEL the user to ACKNOWLEDGE RECEIPT of the safety bulletin -- AND then to acknowledge that an INDEPENDENT / LICENSED inspector has verified that the remedial work/ procedure has been implemented?
Long term parking of an aircraft is actually well described in the maintenance manual. Chapter 10 of it to be exact. It is called "PARKING, MOORING AND RETURN TO SERVICE". Did they followed it? Also, once an aircraft has been cleared by maintenance for return to service, most of the companies would conduct a special test flight for the "Extended Down Time" (performed not by a regular crew but the pilots qualified to do it) in accordance with their SOP in order to ensure that no passenger gets on board of potentially unsafe aircraft.
I was thinking it might be better described as "Chapter 11" (Chapter 10 was an older version of a too complex bankruptcy set of rules). Maybe it wouldn't make sense to aviators but the link to not completing this step and bankruptcy seems somewhat appropriate?
i just found this channel, its awesome. i dont even care about airplanes, i saw your atlatis sts 27 video. it was awesome. very well edited, good overall. i love this.
Hey I love your channel, thanks for all the detailed videos ya put you. I've noticed that the audio levels on your channel is about 50% quieter than most other videos on here, always have to turn ya up for some reason.
I feel for these guys. I flew MD-80’s for a supplemental 121 carrier back when the economy was not doing well. 22 months exactly. I feel very fortunate to have survived with my life and no FAA violations.
I thought this sounded strangely familiar. Having grown up and still living near both DTW and YIP, and an alumnus of Michigan, I'm familiar with the very similar story involving the UM Mens Basketball team. I'm glad that was mentioned in the video - until then, part of me was wondering if that the accident at play and something got mixed up. It's too bad that the same accident happened multiple times, but ill give MD some credit that in both cases, there were no fatalities, perhaps a testament to the crash worthiness of the fuselage design.
@@pibbles-a-plenty1105 there have been lots of deadly runway excursions though. That failure to rotate (very high speed abortions) has happened twice with NO lives lost is pretty incredible.
@@Kettvnen I see "No One Noticed This Fatal Error" in the thumbnail. I've seen other YT videos being shown with different thumbnails depending on the device or browser, I don't know why, maybe that's what happened here?
Every plane that sits for like a month or more should be required to undergo a thorough check up including a short test flight before it can transport paying passengers again!
Yes, sometimes the manual is inadequate. It is almost impossible to cover every possible thing that could happen. I know next to nothing about this type of aircraft. I’m not sure if this aircraft had a gust lock. Many aircraft have some type of gust lock system. The gust lock is engaged to lock the the control surfaces in place to prevent damage from gusting winds. I have seen many cases where engaging the gust lock was overlooked. In some cases there was damage and in some cases there was no damage.
If I remember correctly, this operator mentioned that they were operating under Part 91 certificate, they did not know or forgot that this airplane type and size must be operated under Part 125 certificate which dictates specifically which type and maintenance interval requirements.
@@davefoord1259 Hi Dave, here is the regulation (www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-G/part-125). CFR part 121 operation applies to Flag Carrier i.e. (Delta, American, United), the aircraft itself is certified under part 25 (transport Category Aircraft), the operation of this aircraft type is another story, it can be operated under part 91 only for specific flights, i.e., (maintenance, repositioning, training) but can do so only without passengers. FYI, some airplane manufacturers make sure their aircraft are certified to 19 passengers seat only and have a maximum payload of less than 6000 pounds to avoid these more stringent part 125 requirements. Safe flight buddy. 👋
I took Bush Pilot Training in 1979. If airplane is not flying with little flaps, add more flaps. It works and saved my life a few times when flying with heavy loads. B52 takes off like that. Flaps up to 30 degrees.
@@justinjwolf Underpowered airplanes cannot climb with flaps over 20. But others can. You just pop more flaps if need to climb. Vx flaps is called too. Many accidents on take off of low speed due not enough flaps used.
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 Just going to leave it as disagreeing with you, probably because I don’t get myself into that sort of situation (not a fan of low and slow). As a CFI, I wouldn’t be recommending experimental use of flaps, but what people do once I’m on the ground is up to them.
They may have been able to make it fly with the stabiliser trim but getting airborne with a jammed elevator is not ideal. As it turned out no one was killed so probably the best decision to reject the take off, even though it was made after V1 and by the co pilot.
So, MacDonnell Douglas designs an aircraft without a fail-safe elevator system with no hard stoppers or sensors, and Boeing, which bought out MD, said there's nothing can be done about this problem. That makes sense as the management of Boeing had been taken over by ex-MD executives. MD has a long history of designing bad aircraft that caused many crashes, killing hundreds and hundreds of people. With ex-MD executives in charge, Boeing is following in the same footsteps of the infamous MD, with all the problems they've been having with Boeing jets.
I’m curious what design problems Douglas or MD aircraft had. The B707 were all retired before the DC8. They turned the DC-10 into a MD10 and it was a great airplane to fly. Do you make those comments with real experience or just a quick computer keyboard?
Ah the blame-MD meme... for people who didn't look into Boeing's history before that. This is a myth propagated by Boeing apologists who try to create an image that the company was clean and safe before the merger... Yes Boeing did inherit a lot of problems from MD but it already had a long history of its own of greedy management decisions and design flaws. Both the B737 and 747 had rushed designs that later had to be modified multiple times due to fatal accidents throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s. The most famous of these was the B737 rudder failure that Boeing fought tooth and nail for years claiming it wasn't their fault. Even before that the Kegworth disaster was due to Boeing pushing a new version of the 737 without adequate pilot training (sounds familiar?) by circumventing regulations. The 747 had fatal accidents due to faulty cargo doors and engine mounting designs as well that were based on management decisions. Boeing management was playing dice with lives long before MD was mixed in.
If the elevator was jammed in the up direction, it would have been noticed on the walk around. Normal position for the elevator on walk around is down.
The Michigan crash occurred in 2017 and was a charter flight for the Univ of Michigan Men's basketball team heading to the NCAA tournament. It was nearly an identical accident and thankfully no one died. Seeing as it too was an MD aircraft parked near a hangar during high winds why wasn't there a safety advisory created before 2020? To be a pilot having to inspect a dormant plane during the pandemic and concerned enough to elicit additional inspection eyeballs, why wouldn't they look at the elevator positioning? Maddening.
As a Commercially licensed pilot I think this many accidents from the same cause is evidence the word didn't get out to the flight crew members. Very sad😢!!
One of the problem with T-tails is that they're hard to visually inspect on the ground, and their action is harder to verify during a control check. With two people doing the preflight, they could've had one verify the control response (hindsight).... Wonder how effectively the control lock locks the elevator, or does it? When stored, an exterior mechanical lock of some sort should be used. Bummer to see a nice plane wrecked.....
I’m not a pilot, but another thing about T-tails I’ve learned from UA-cam is that they can be harder to recover from a stall. That’s because when the aircraft is in a stall with the nose up, the elevators on the horizontal stabilizer are in the midst of the turbulent flow off the wings, so using them to pitch down won’t be very effective.
@@Sashazur This is why pilots are trained to recognize an 'incipient stall' and prevent the plane from stalling in the first place - something they don't always do successfully....
@@jiyushugi1085 Filling the cockpit with too much automation and unnecessary data, might have smth to do with it. For old school pilots it's easier to be selective and keep an eye on the critical instruments. For "modern" pilots, not so much.
Great video as always! I have a small question: could you pitch your voice a bit higher? The same as you do in the end of this video? For a foreign language person it's sometimes difficult to follow. But hey, maybe it's just my girlfiend and me, and everyone else have no problem... Anyways, thanks for your effort to make this videos happen!
Good video. Whoever is flying your sim is making some big mistakes though. lol. They put it in the grass twice at least while on taxi and it looks like they are using differential braking instead of the rudder to keep it on centerline during takeoff. 😬
There was a somewhat similar event on Air Moorea Flt 1121 in 2007. The elevator cables, in the case, were the problem. In part, there was suspicion that when the aircraft was parked, the nearby jets' blast moved the elevators excessively causing the issue. Wikipedia : "Air Moorea Flight 1121 was a de Havilland Canada DHC-6 Twin Otter which crashed into the ocean shortly after takeoff from Moorea Airport on Moorea Island in French Polynesia on 9 August 2007, killing all 20 people on board. It was bound for Tahiti's Fa'a'ā International Airport on a regular 7-minute service, one of the shortest on earth, scheduled 40 times a day. The crash resulted from loss of control due to failure of the airplane's elevator cable.[1] Frequent takeoff and landing are believed to have been a major factor in the crash, because of wear and tear on the elevator cables, inspected only at fixed time intervals, regardless of usage. Another factor may have been jet-blast from large planes pushing back from the ramp at Fa'a'ā International. "
Towards the end of the video he mentions Boeing modifying the aircraft. I understood that this aircraft was derived from a Mcdonnel Douglas aircraft. Was this therefore after Boeing had acquired said company?
Not identical but somewhat similar: Air Moorea Flight 1121 on 9 Aug 2007. _"failure of the elevator cable was when the Twin Otter, while parked at Faa'a airport, was possibly subject to a jet blast from an Airbus A340"_
I have determined that if I never get on a Commercial Jet I won't have to die early. I'm in charge of my aircraft and never depend on someone else's Mark I eyeballs Did they get to the game after all? or were boxes and boxes of Depends given out ?
07:00 "This jet took off with a jammed elevator........the jet was unable to get off the ground". Can't have it both ways. It either took off or it didn't.
Reminds me of that Twin Otter that was parked in a position where the jet blast slammed the elevators violently into full deflection and damaged the control cables, leading to a crash.
One item you missed was the jack screw on most md 80/ dc 9 and boeings 727 t tail aircraft this device used to be the number one culprit in t tail crashes especially in these types of aircrafts sitting why I suspect the jack screw is irs least visible and harder to access since it sits top mid section of the tail there is a panel but where its located hard to get too and time consuming the problem they sometims either snap due to rust or unscrew themselves if the cotter pin breaks or slips out
Yay! No horrible AI voice! You just got a new subscriber. However, I had to laugh at "Since you're watching this and you're a plane nerd, you probably know that the MD87 has a T-tail." Uh, no. I'm an Air Crash Investigation nerd, not a plane nerd! Everything I know about planes has come from Mayday (ACI) or Mentour Pilot LOL!
To be fair, the pilots needed to be told to check this, as it’s not an area easy to see. What I can’t understand is why, during such terrible weather, the plane was parked beside a large hanger? Would it not have been more sensible to put it *in* this large hanger?
@@Funked_Upit’s not is it? It’s an MD, McDonnell Douglas. How could I make such a stupid mistake? 🙄 Thanks for pointing that out. I’ll take the first sentence out of my comment.
I'd like to know which runways to which aircraft that V1 is after take off speed. I always found it odd that V1 would ever be before take off speed. It's insane.
Not a pilot, but AFAIK, the idea is that the act of rotating is committing to the takeoff, and V1 is the speed at which you commit to the takeoff, so there's no concept of V1 ever being higher than VR - it's at most equal to VR. (There's not really a concept, as I understand, in commercial aviation of setting it back down on the runway after rotating, unless the plane is fundamentally unable to fly. Also, once you rotate, there's a lot more variables for whether you can stop after setting it back down.) And, even if a given airplane and runway combination has enough room to set it back down and stop successfully without overrunning, due to how performance is calculated for balanced field takeoffs, it's quite possible that reduced thrust is used for reduced noise, fuel consumption, and engine wear, meaning you don't have that room any more.
With the beginning of the Jet age in my Company it was a strikt rule to make a flight control check to visual check the correct movement of ALL the flight surfaces before the first flight of the day or at a crew change together with the crew in the cockpit and the mechanic on the ground to visually check and confirm all the correct movements of the Control surfaces to prevent accidents like these. It took 10 min and was worth It. No need to make a testflight which is costly and uses a lot of time.
This is a wonderful discussion -- This analysis contains a great lesson in living -- Such a short discussion makes it suitable for older schooled children. The sort of lesson which this discussion provides is an important example of the importance of co-operation and communication. (I would only suggest that the narrator speak more clearly -- i.e. enunciate his words naturally -- Speak plainly and clearly.)
0:50 A pilot walkaround would do NOTHING to make sure the aircraft is ready for flight. For that you need the proper factory maintenance reference and several Airframe and Powerplant mechanics to do all the proper inspections and operational checks before it is ready to get it's MRD. (Maintenance Release Document)
On the MD80's and DC9 the Elevators are not interconnected left and right, they move free and independent except on full nose down a hydrolic system asists called elevator power.
Again V2 is not "the minimum speed that must be maintained if an engine fails after V1." V2 is the speed at which you would achieve the best rate of climb with one engine inoperative. In other words, if an engine fails, you must pitch the aircraft to maintain V2 and that will give you the best rate of climb which could actually be also the best glide if you are heavy or you are operating at a high density altitude.
Your statement at 10:30 is blatantly false. The elevators on the DC-9 series aircraft are not connected to the control stick of the aircraft. This would appear 100% normal to any pilot operating any variant of the DC-9. In fact, having both elevators fully deflected in opposite directions when parked on the ground would be normal as well. They will literally end up in whatever position the wind and or gravity pushes them. Only once the elevator itself has enough airflow over top of it to overcome its own weight will it return to a neutral position. The ONLY way to check if an elevator on any DC-9 series aircraft is jammed is to get a ladder and attempt to physically move the elevator with your hands.
V1 is the maximum speed at which a rejected takeoff can be initiated in the event of an emergency and stop the aircraft safely within runway boundaries , useing only brakes , or your company's safety procedures or the aircraft manufacturer recommendations. But why not the use of reverse trust or ground spoilers ? Well, because in case of an engine failure ,means that the thrust reverser in this faulty engine is almost lost on one side and using the thrust reversor on the other side would cause asymmetrical thrust and might cause loss of directional control, especially on a contaminated runway.
Proof that if you have enough runway that V1 nonsense is ridiculous. I’ll always wonder what would’ve happened had Concorde just stayed on the ground instead of taking off on fire. At least on the ground there would’ve been some chance for survival. I’d rather my pilot do every damn thing he/she can do to stop the plane even if involves an overrun. As opposed to taking off and hoping the plane will fly well enough to return to the airport.
Pathetic that in the age of face and voice recognition the engineers are not able to design a warning light which would tell the pilots that something is wrong with the elevator.
Because the McDonnell Douglas became part of the Boeing after the corporate merger in 1997. Remaining orders of DC-9/MD-80/MD-90-series were even delivered under Boeing 717-name. Same thing happened when Airbus bought the Bombardier CS100/300-line and rebadged them into Airbus A220-100/300.
I don't care what my employment status is, or how badly I need the work. if I'm going to fly a plane that sat outside for SIX MONTHS, I'll insist on more than a walkaround by two people! That plane would get a full inspection of the controls, and at LEAST a thorough running of the engines, not to mention a thorough taxi test! I'd probably insist on a test flight by a qualified test pilot as well! As demonstrated, too much can happen to a plane sitting out in the open for half a year to half-ass preflight preparations! As far as I am concerned, bad parking wasn't was crashed this plane. It was bad pilots.
It’s a good thing that commercial aircraft do not have external cameras like my $29k Kia. It’s 2024 and the most modern and sophisticated commercial aircraft in the world, still have to fly by the tower to determine if landing gear is down or by asking the plane behind them on the ground if their rudder flaps etc are actually working.
10:30 There is absolutely NO indication that those elevators are jammed. They don't streamline until there is airspeed on them. They would naturally droop due to gravity.
Interesting. I was thinking to myself, wouldn't they have noticed the elevator position during their pre-flight walkaround? If that was a natural resting position, that explains why no problems were found pre-flight.
@@gusmc01 According to the description I saw the elevators are not connected to the control column. They are controlled by the control tabs. That's a REALLY poor design. I would call it a design FLAW. Damaged in such a way that the pilot still has full freedom of movement? That's Douglas' negligence.
@@gusmc01 There is no such thing as a "natural resting position" for the elevators on any DC-9 series variant. They end up in whatever position gravity and the wind wants it to end up in. And often that is not the same position between the two elevators.
The pilots may have been a bit unfamiliar with the MD 87 or any jet as their former employer Everts Air Cargo flies vintage DC-6s built in the 1950s. Not every pilot transitions to jets as well as others.
Everts operates a small fleet of MD-80s across North America with dedicated pilots. The DC-6s and C-46s typically stay in Alaska and serve local communities with their own crews.
At least the elevators were jammed in the down position. If they were stuck upward this would more likely have become a stall with a fatal crash. There have been multiple fatal accidents with the latter problem.
V1 is not the highest speed you can safely reject the takeoff. This is a common misconception. If you reject the takeoff at V1 you may not stop in time. V1 is the speed at which you can no longer safely reject the takeoff. In other words, you must decide to reject the takeoff BEFORE you reach V1.
snow me…everybody knew about this problem since 1980 when it first happened. No doubt everybody knew…it was a big issue back then Because the plane had a full load of football players in it.
9:50 "Elevators not jammed verification"
Yes, that's an update everyone will read carefully. It's right up there with "wings firmly attached verification".
Boeing leaves chat.
How do you do a visual inspection of the control surfaces and not see that the elevator is jammed? There it is, right there in the photo 10:28.
OMG Somebody was asleep.
@@MrPLC999Seeing the elevator on that model in the down position is not evidence that it is jammed. The elevators are moved by trim tabs and air flow, not hydraulics, except for down elevator. Taxi behind one and you might see the elevators moving in different directions!
What happened to positive control checks before first flight
On a DC9 or MD80, you are only moving the control tabs with the yoke, except when pushing full forward which engages elevator power and a blue annunciator light indicates that elevator power is working. The elevators can move up and down with the wind so I suppose that the bulletin is effective because the elevators probably are weighted to te up normally. @@robertcraig5037
10:09 Mark 2 human eyeball? Well there's your problem! Both the airframe guy and the copilot only had Mark 1 eyeballs!
Boeing charges extra for their aircraft to be viewed with Mark II eyeballs anyway, and pilots are not informed about the Mark II eyeball requirement. That would require retraining.
I'm sure nothing can go wrong with a pilot verifying something up tall on the rear of the aircraft. It's totally not like the crash already happened due to a pilot missing the jammed elevator
@@jblyon2 You can't check for the problem with Mark 1 or 2 eyeballs. They are not on the required equipment list.
Isn't that just a software fix that can be upgraded on any human by some lines of text on a screen or paper?
When I watch a military aircraft preparing for take-off, his crew chief has a radio link with the pilot and checks are thorough and acknowledged.
I was doing my preflight on a B757 years ago when I noticed the elevator was not in the marked neutral position. Upon entering the cockpit, the elevator trim showed that it was. A clear discrepancy! When maintenance was notified, aircraft was grounded for repair.
Such things must not be left to chance -- Maintenance crew ought to inspect such things -- and inspectors ought to check the work of the maintenance crew. Measurement?
Airplanes break and need maintenance just like any other machine. @@victorsauvage1890
757 years ago? You must be very old.
@@dicdicd1767and you must be very ignorant. 757s have been in operation for decades.
@@rayreid1589 757 years ago there was no plane yet!
Great analysis!! Incredible identifying Hangar relationship!!! Moreover PILOTS WERE LUCKY AS S..T THAT HUGE EMPTY LAND PAST RUNWAY
I would say, the pilots and everyone in the plane! But yeah, imagine there had been a highway (like RA-64047)
@@georgH They were also lucky Morton Road, which is the road they did cross, sees very little traffic in that area.
Why must we rely on luck? Why must we rely on the user of plane to find -- and then to read -- and then to implement -- the up-dated safety bulletin? Ought Boeing and the FAA NOT to COMPEL the user to ACKNOWLEDGE RECEIPT of the safety bulletin -- AND then to acknowledge that an INDEPENDENT / LICENSED inspector has verified that the remedial work/ procedure has been implemented?
Long term parking of an aircraft is actually well described in the maintenance manual. Chapter 10 of it to be exact. It is called "PARKING, MOORING AND RETURN TO SERVICE". Did they followed it? Also, once an aircraft has been cleared by maintenance for return to service, most of the companies would conduct a special test flight for the "Extended Down Time" (performed not by a regular crew but the pilots qualified to do it) in accordance with their SOP in order to ensure that no passenger gets on board of potentially unsafe aircraft.
Maintenance does NOT return to service = Maintenance signs off work completed
Pilots sign off the returned to Service.
I was thinking it might be better described as "Chapter 11" (Chapter 10 was an older version of a too complex bankruptcy set of rules). Maybe it wouldn't make sense to aviators but the link to not completing this step and bankruptcy seems somewhat appropriate?
i just found this channel, its awesome. i dont even care about airplanes, i saw your atlatis sts 27 video. it was awesome. very well edited, good overall. i love this.
Hey I love your channel, thanks for all the detailed videos ya put you. I've noticed that the audio levels on your channel is about 50% quieter than most other videos on here, always have to turn ya up for some reason.
I feel for these guys. I flew MD-80’s for a supplemental 121 carrier back when the economy was not doing well. 22 months exactly. I feel very fortunate to have survived with my life and no FAA violations.
I thought this sounded strangely familiar. Having grown up and still living near both DTW and YIP, and an alumnus of Michigan, I'm familiar with the very similar story involving the UM Mens Basketball team. I'm glad that was mentioned in the video - until then, part of me was wondering if that the accident at play and something got mixed up. It's too bad that the same accident happened multiple times, but ill give MD some credit that in both cases, there were no fatalities, perhaps a testament to the crash worthiness of the fuselage design.
It's pretty hard to crash an airplane into the ground with all lives lost when the plane is still on the ground.
@@pibbles-a-plenty1105 there have been lots of deadly runway excursions though. That failure to rotate (very high speed abortions) has happened twice with NO lives lost is pretty incredible.
@@ChristopherBurtraw probably not having engines on the wings to rip off helped
appreciate the pun at the thumbnail
I was hoping someone would get it
I don't get it
I can find some irony in the thumbnail, but no pun.
@@enigmawyoming5201 a flaw in *plane* (plain) sight
@@Kettvnen I see "No One Noticed This Fatal Error" in the thumbnail. I've seen other YT videos being shown with different thumbnails depending on the device or browser, I don't know why, maybe that's what happened here?
As soon as the tabs were mentioned, it felt like a documentary I had heard years ago, and I knew where it was going.
You are back!
Every plane that sits for like a month or more should be required to undergo a thorough check up including a short test flight before it can transport paying passengers again!
The aircraft maintenance manual outlines required procedures based on how long an aircraft has been sitting.
A short test flight to see if the plane is crash worthy?
@@michaelthompson4269 Then the aircraft maintenance manual is obviously inadequate.
Yes, sometimes the manual is inadequate. It is almost impossible to cover every possible thing that could happen. I know next to nothing about this type of aircraft. I’m not sure if this aircraft had a gust lock. Many aircraft have some type of gust lock system. The gust lock is engaged to lock the the control surfaces in place to prevent damage from gusting winds. I have seen many cases where engaging the gust lock was overlooked. In some cases there was damage and in some cases there was no damage.
One air accident involved insects nesting in the pito tubes. The plane had sat for less than two weeks.
Thank you for a well-made video on a trouble spot based upon where the airplane had been previously parked. Glad all 21 on board made it out ok!
I always enjoy when the safety recommendations recommend safety changes that are recommended !
If I remember correctly, this operator mentioned that they were operating under Part 91 certificate, they did not know or forgot that this airplane type and size must be operated under Part 125 certificate which dictates specifically which type and maintenance interval requirements.
Is There a part 125?
The aircraft is certificated under part 25 and operated under part 121 im pretty sure
@@davefoord1259 Hi Dave, here is the regulation (www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-G/part-125). CFR part 121 operation applies to Flag Carrier i.e. (Delta, American, United), the aircraft itself is certified under part 25 (transport Category Aircraft), the operation of this aircraft type is another story, it can be operated under part 91 only for specific flights, i.e., (maintenance, repositioning, training) but can do so only without passengers. FYI, some airplane manufacturers make sure their aircraft are certified to 19 passengers seat only and have a maximum payload of less than 6000 pounds to avoid these more stringent part 125 requirements. Safe flight buddy. 👋
@@davefoord1259yea there is
Great video as always, thank you 👍🇮🇪
I took Bush Pilot Training in 1979. If airplane is not flying with little flaps, add more flaps. It works and saved my life a few times when flying with heavy loads. B52 takes off like that. Flaps up to 30 degrees.
As long as it's in the plane's operating procedures, sure. I can't think of very many scenarios where this would actually be a good idea though.
@@justinjwolf Underpowered airplanes cannot climb with flaps over 20. But others can. You just pop more flaps if need to climb. Vx flaps is called too. Many accidents on take off of low speed due not enough flaps used.
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 Just going to leave it as disagreeing with you, probably because I don’t get myself into that sort of situation (not a fan of low and slow). As a CFI, I wouldn’t be recommending experimental use of flaps, but what people do once I’m on the ground is up to them.
They may have been able to make it fly with the stabiliser trim but getting airborne with a jammed elevator is not ideal. As it turned out no one was killed so probably the best decision to reject the take off, even though it was made after V1 and by the co pilot.
So, MacDonnell Douglas designs an aircraft without a fail-safe elevator system with no hard stoppers or sensors, and Boeing, which bought out MD, said there's nothing can be done about this problem. That makes sense as the management of Boeing had been taken over by ex-MD executives. MD has a long history of designing bad aircraft that caused many crashes, killing hundreds and hundreds of people. With ex-MD executives in charge, Boeing is following in the same footsteps of the infamous MD, with all the problems they've been having with Boeing jets.
The DC-10 had some truly massive issues with the cargo door latches
I’m curious what design problems Douglas or MD aircraft had. The B707 were all retired before the DC8. They turned the DC-10 into a MD10 and it was a great airplane to fly. Do you make those comments with real experience or just a quick computer keyboard?
Ah the blame-MD meme... for people who didn't look into Boeing's history before that. This is a myth propagated by Boeing apologists who try to create an image that the company was clean and safe before the merger...
Yes Boeing did inherit a lot of problems from MD but it already had a long history of its own of greedy management decisions and design flaws.
Both the B737 and 747 had rushed designs that later had to be modified multiple times due to fatal accidents throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s. The most famous of these was the B737 rudder failure that Boeing fought tooth and nail for years claiming it wasn't their fault.
Even before that the Kegworth disaster was due to Boeing pushing a new version of the 737 without adequate pilot training (sounds familiar?) by circumventing regulations.
The 747 had fatal accidents due to faulty cargo doors and engine mounting designs as well that were based on management decisions.
Boeing management was playing dice with lives long before MD was mixed in.
I have a feeling that Mentour Pilot made a similar video, possibly on this exact incident. Great video nonetheless, very informative and interesting 😊
I know he made a video a while ago on the other, similar incident mentioned near the end of this one.
He made one on the incident in 2016
I live in the area so I remember hearing about this back when it happened, it’s good to have the full story
It was lucky the elevator was not jammed in the opposite direction.
There's an insight. If it had been so, what would have happened? I'm guessing a stall after takeoff, but I'm no pilot.
Plane would try to rotate prematurely and an uncommanded rotation should logically result in an RTO.
@@TerryClarkAccordioncrazy they'd stall and spin in. Not good.
If the elevator was jammed in the up direction, it would have been noticed on the walk around. Normal position for the elevator on walk around is down.
The Michigan crash occurred in 2017 and was a charter flight for the Univ of Michigan Men's basketball team heading to the NCAA tournament. It was nearly an identical accident and thankfully no one died. Seeing as it too was an MD aircraft parked near a hangar during high winds why wasn't there a safety advisory created before 2020?
To be a pilot having to inspect a dormant plane during the pandemic and concerned enough to elicit additional inspection eyeballs, why wouldn't they look at the elevator positioning? Maddening.
Yes, exactly the same airframe failure as the Willow Run accident, thankfully both accidents were just airframe damage and no deaths.
Excellent coverage! Thanks!
As a Commercially licensed pilot I think this many accidents from the same cause is evidence the word didn't get out to the flight crew members.
Very sad😢!!
@10:08 "Mark II human eyeball" 😭
well done! excellent presentation. thanks
Great video, I think if you made your picture at 10:40 your thumbnail, this video would get even more views. It would definitely intrigue me.
One of the problem with T-tails is that they're hard to visually inspect on the ground, and their action is harder to verify during a control check. With two people doing the preflight, they could've had one verify the control response (hindsight).... Wonder how effectively the control lock locks the elevator, or does it? When stored, an exterior mechanical lock of some sort should be used. Bummer to see a nice plane wrecked.....
I’m not a pilot, but another thing about T-tails I’ve learned from UA-cam is that they can be harder to recover from a stall. That’s because when the aircraft is in a stall with the nose up, the elevators on the horizontal stabilizer are in the midst of the turbulent flow off the wings, so using them to pitch down won’t be very effective.
@@Sashazur This is why pilots are trained to recognize an 'incipient stall' and prevent the plane from stalling in the first place - something they don't always do successfully....
@@jiyushugi1085 Filling the cockpit with too much automation and unnecessary data, might have smth to do with it. For old school pilots it's easier to be selective and keep an eye on the critical instruments. For "modern" pilots, not so much.
Great video as always! I have a small question: could you pitch your voice a bit higher? The same as you do in the end of this video? For a foreign language person it's sometimes difficult to follow. But hey, maybe it's just my girlfiend and me, and everyone else have no problem... Anyways, thanks for your effort to make this videos happen!
I’ll definitely try!
I was sure it was going to be bugs in the pitot tubes in the beginning of the video. Nice presentation
Do you think you can turn up your volume on your end? My end is cranked up and I can barely hear you. Thank you.
Good video. Whoever is flying your sim is making some big mistakes though. lol. They put it in the grass twice at least while on taxi and it looks like they are using differential braking instead of the rudder to keep it on centerline during takeoff. 😬
There was a somewhat similar event on Air Moorea Flt 1121 in 2007. The elevator cables, in the case, were the problem. In part, there was suspicion that when the aircraft was parked, the nearby jets' blast moved the elevators excessively causing the issue.
Wikipedia : "Air Moorea Flight 1121 was a de Havilland Canada DHC-6 Twin Otter which crashed into the ocean shortly after takeoff from Moorea Airport on Moorea Island in French Polynesia on 9 August 2007, killing all 20 people on board. It was bound for Tahiti's Fa'a'ā International Airport on a regular 7-minute service, one of the shortest on earth, scheduled 40 times a day. The crash resulted from loss of control due to failure of the airplane's elevator cable.[1] Frequent takeoff and landing are believed to have been a major factor in the crash, because of wear and tear on the elevator cables, inspected only at fixed time intervals, regardless of usage. Another factor may have been jet-blast from large planes pushing back from the ramp at Fa'a'ā International. "
“Relied on the Mark 2 Human Eyeball”…I just spit out my mouthful of coffee!
Thanks for the laugh and yet another great video!
Glad you enjoyed it
That game in question was Game 6 of the 2021 American League Championship Series, fwiw
Thanks, I understood all of that until fwiw. 😁👍
Who won? ⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️⚾️
Excellent explanation!
Towards the end of the video he mentions Boeing modifying the aircraft. I understood that this aircraft was derived from a Mcdonnel Douglas aircraft. Was this therefore after Boeing had acquired said company?
I believe so, sounds like Boeing also bought their problems too haha.
@@pwneytube They bought their CEO.
@@douro20 and bean counters too
Mighty shame about the beautiful bird.
Appreciate the video,
Not identical but somewhat similar: Air Moorea Flight 1121 on 9 Aug 2007.
_"failure of the elevator cable was when the Twin Otter, while parked at Faa'a airport, was possibly subject to a jet blast from an Airbus A340"_
I have determined that if I never get on a Commercial Jet I won't have to die early. I'm in charge of my aircraft and never depend on someone else's Mark I eyeballs
Did they get to the game after all? or were boxes and boxes of Depends given out ?
07:00 "This jet took off with a jammed elevator........the jet was unable to get off the ground".
Can't have it both ways. It either took off or it didn't.
Reminds me of that Twin Otter that was parked in a position where the jet blast slammed the elevators violently into full deflection and damaged the control cables, leading to a crash.
One item you missed was the jack screw on most md 80/ dc 9 and boeings 727 t tail aircraft this device used to be the number one culprit in t tail crashes especially in these types of aircrafts sitting why I suspect the jack screw is irs least visible and harder to access since it sits top mid section of the tail there is a panel but where its located hard to get too and time consuming the problem they sometims either snap due to rust or unscrew themselves if the cotter pin breaks or slips out
Excellent video!
I thought the MD-80 was McDonnell Douglas, not Boeing…. (@ 9:20)
Boeing bought McDonnell Douglas
They didn’t conduct a check before the flight despite grounding??
I remember hearing about this accident, never realized it was related to the 1999 accident so closely!
Tail number is AK. Is this an old Alaska bird?
😪 Turbulent wind over the ailerons. and its 35-40 ft above the round to inspect. IMO - Need a visual observer to do control check.
Yay! No horrible AI voice! You just got a new subscriber. However, I had to laugh at "Since you're watching this and you're a plane nerd, you probably know that the MD87 has a T-tail." Uh, no. I'm an Air Crash Investigation nerd, not a plane nerd! Everything I know about planes has come from Mayday (ACI) or Mentour Pilot LOL!
Can you talk about the plane in owls head Maine that crashed into a truck?
To be fair, the pilots needed to be told to check this, as it’s not an area easy to see. What I can’t understand is why, during such terrible weather, the plane was parked beside a large hanger? Would it not have been more sensible to put it *in* this large hanger?
It’s not a Boeing
@@Funked_Upit’s not is it? It’s an MD, McDonnell Douglas. How could I make such a stupid mistake? 🙄 Thanks for pointing that out. I’ll take the first sentence out of my comment.
I'd like to know which runways to which aircraft that V1 is after take off speed. I always found it odd that V1 would ever be before take off speed. It's insane.
Not a pilot, but AFAIK, the idea is that the act of rotating is committing to the takeoff, and V1 is the speed at which you commit to the takeoff, so there's no concept of V1 ever being higher than VR - it's at most equal to VR. (There's not really a concept, as I understand, in commercial aviation of setting it back down on the runway after rotating, unless the plane is fundamentally unable to fly. Also, once you rotate, there's a lot more variables for whether you can stop after setting it back down.)
And, even if a given airplane and runway combination has enough room to set it back down and stop successfully without overrunning, due to how performance is calculated for balanced field takeoffs, it's quite possible that reduced thrust is used for reduced noise, fuel consumption, and engine wear, meaning you don't have that room any more.
With the beginning of the Jet age in my Company it was a strikt rule to make a flight control check to visual check the correct movement of ALL the flight surfaces before the first flight of the day or at a crew change together with the crew in the cockpit and the mechanic on the ground to visually check and confirm all the correct movements of the Control surfaces to prevent accidents like these. It took 10 min and was worth It. No need to make a testflight which is costly and uses a lot of time.
This is a wonderful discussion -- This analysis contains a great lesson in living -- Such a short discussion makes it suitable for older schooled children. The sort of lesson which this discussion provides is an important example of the importance of co-operation and communication. (I would only suggest that the narrator speak more clearly -- i.e. enunciate his words naturally -- Speak plainly and clearly.)
0:50 A pilot walkaround would do NOTHING to make sure the aircraft is ready for flight. For that you need the proper factory maintenance reference and several Airframe and Powerplant mechanics to do all the proper inspections and operational checks before it is ready to get it's MRD. (Maintenance Release Document)
MD_87. Was built by McDonnel Douglas in Tulsa.. not Boing
On the MD80's and DC9 the Elevators are not interconnected left and right, they move free and independent except on full nose down a hydrolic system asists called elevator power.
They have control locks to prevent just this!! We had them in the Herc.
Checking Controls after 6 Month of parking could be a good idea? Who could have guessed that?
"The flaps the slats the stabilizer was all set" Do you mean, the Flaps and stab trim? The DC-9, MD-80 & 90 models don't have "slats", never did.
Again V2 is not "the minimum speed that must be maintained if an engine fails after V1." V2 is the speed at which you would achieve the best rate of climb with one engine inoperative. In other words, if an engine fails, you must pitch the aircraft to maintain V2 and that will give you the best rate of climb which could actually be also the best glide if you are heavy or you are operating at a high density altitude.
V2 only need to meet minimal climb gradient after TO, and margin above stall and Engine Out control, normally it's at or lower than Vx, let along Vy.
I think these pilots handled this well, using reverse thrust and saving everybody.
Your statement at 10:30 is blatantly false. The elevators on the DC-9 series aircraft are not connected to the control stick of the aircraft. This would appear 100% normal to any pilot operating any variant of the DC-9. In fact, having both elevators fully deflected in opposite directions when parked on the ground would be normal as well. They will literally end up in whatever position the wind and or gravity pushes them. Only once the elevator itself has enough airflow over top of it to overcome its own weight will it return to a neutral position. The ONLY way to check if an elevator on any DC-9 series aircraft is jammed is to get a ladder and attempt to physically move the elevator with your hands.
V1 is the maximum speed at which a rejected takeoff can be initiated in the event of an emergency and stop the aircraft safely within runway boundaries , useing only brakes , or your company's safety procedures or the aircraft manufacturer recommendations. But why not the use of reverse trust or ground spoilers ? Well, because in case of an engine failure ,means that the thrust reverser in this faulty engine is almost lost on one side and using the thrust reversor on the other side would cause asymmetrical thrust and might cause loss of directional control, especially on a contaminated runway.
Is that jet like 40 years old?
@Leemx5li.....Usually there's a highway, or a gas station or something else that they crash into.
You might want to name the proper manufacturer that would be MacDonald Douglas otherwise known as MD.
Boeing bought MD. DC-9 to MD80 series to Boeing 717 same lineage, different “manufacturers”.
Bent elevator trim cranks?kmmm
Did they make it to the ballgame
Fyi, MD planes are made by McDonnell Douglas, not Boeing.
Proof that if you have enough runway that V1 nonsense is ridiculous. I’ll always wonder what would’ve happened had Concorde just stayed on the ground instead of taking off on fire. At least on the ground there would’ve been some chance for survival. I’d rather my pilot do every damn thing he/she can do to stop the plane even if involves an overrun. As opposed to taking off and hoping the plane will fly well enough to return to the airport.
Pathetic that in the age of face and voice recognition the engineers are not able to design a warning light which would tell the pilots that something is wrong with the elevator.
...also think, bee/wasps in the pitot tubes.
at the start of the sim video the Nine taxies with the reverser clamshells open..
I saw another video with the same problem. I believe they made modifications to prevent over traveling so this should never happen again.
Thanks for fixing the thumbnail.
Why would Boeing have to fix a problem on a MD (McDonnell Douglas) aircraft?
Because the McDonnell Douglas became part of the Boeing after the corporate merger in 1997. Remaining orders of DC-9/MD-80/MD-90-series were even delivered under Boeing 717-name. Same thing happened when Airbus bought the Bombardier CS100/300-line and rebadged them into Airbus A220-100/300.
I don't care what my employment status is, or how badly I need the work. if I'm going to fly a plane that sat outside for SIX MONTHS, I'll insist on more than a walkaround by two people! That plane would get a full inspection of the controls, and at LEAST a thorough running of the engines, not to mention a thorough taxi test! I'd probably insist on a test flight by a qualified test pilot as well! As demonstrated, too much can happen to a plane sitting out in the open for half a year to half-ass preflight preparations! As far as I am concerned, bad parking wasn't was crashed this plane. It was bad pilots.
T tails are always a problem ala the piper tramahawk
......And the ATR -72 , Roselawn Indiana 1994
It’s a good thing that commercial aircraft do not have external cameras like my $29k Kia. It’s 2024 and the most modern and sophisticated commercial aircraft in the world, still have to fly by the tower to determine if landing gear is down or by asking the plane behind them on the ground if their rudder flaps etc are actually working.
Crazy how they didn't do a test flight before flying passengers
nice pun in the thumbnail.
I have to sell my car this week to pay my mom's medical bills. I feel your pain, man.
Volume? You speak in a whisper. Got my computer volume on full and can barely hear you.
Have you considered a little longer videos, 20-25 minutes would be great!
A test flight was in order before passengers should be boarded.
I love this channel cause the narrator isn’t AI or British 😂
Bigot.
10:30 There is absolutely NO indication that those elevators are jammed. They don't streamline until there is airspeed on them. They would naturally droop due to gravity.
Interesting. I was thinking to myself, wouldn't they have noticed the elevator position during their pre-flight walkaround? If that was a natural resting position, that explains why no problems were found pre-flight.
@@gusmc01 According to the description I saw the elevators are not connected to the control column. They are controlled by the control tabs.
That's a REALLY poor design. I would call it a design FLAW. Damaged in such a way that the pilot still has full freedom of movement? That's Douglas' negligence.
@@gusmc01 There is no such thing as a "natural resting position" for the elevators on any DC-9 series variant. They end up in whatever position gravity and the wind wants it to end up in. And often that is not the same position between the two elevators.
@@terks43 Interesting, thanks
The pilots may have been a bit unfamiliar with the MD 87 or any jet as their former employer Everts Air Cargo flies vintage DC-6s built in the 1950s. Not every pilot transitions to jets as well as others.
Everts operates a small fleet of MD-80s across North America with dedicated pilots. The DC-6s and C-46s typically stay in Alaska and serve local communities with their own crews.
“Jet” is a method of propulsion not a term that should be used as a replacement for “aircraft” or “airplane”
At least the elevators were jammed in the down position. If they were stuck upward this would more likely have become a stall with a fatal crash. There have been multiple fatal accidents with the latter problem.
Who the heck is flying an MD series jet? This is a dinosaur era aircraft.
Time to upgrade to 4K. That would make your channel even better.
Just because the elevators are drooped does not mean they are jammed. With no aerodynamic forces they will tend to droop.
V1 is not the highest speed you can safely reject the takeoff. This is a common misconception. If you reject the takeoff at V1 you may not stop in time. V1 is the speed at which you can no longer safely reject the takeoff. In other words, you must decide to reject the takeoff BEFORE you reach V1.
snow me…everybody knew about this problem since 1980 when it first happened. No doubt everybody knew…it was a big issue back then Because the plane had a full load of football players in it.
I believe this is a repeat accident had already happened at KYIP.