this is one of my main gripes with SOME cue sport rules (snooker has this worked out). the section you showed is headed 'double hits/frozen balls', but it actually discusses double hits, PUSH SHOTS and frozen balls. push shots are described but not named. this alone results in confusion. to add to the confusion there is a clear double standard regarding push shots. example - why is it a foul when one plays a shot where the cue tip is in contact with the cue ball at the same time that the cue ball is in contact with the object ball - when the "balls are close" (how close ? - I know from experience, but it doesn't seem to be stated in the rules), but - it is ok to plough into the cue ball when it is touching the object ball ?? it's the same principle /physics !! it makes no logical sense ! I realise that it is quite difficult to determine when a push shot takes place (as it implies in the rules - "assumed not to violate"). anyway, I do my best but it's often hard to convey these ideas in text. I've no problem with your excellent double hit analysis, apart from - 8:33 they are fouls because they are push shots. you didn't say why. keep up the good work, I generally enjoy your videos, even if I don't always agree👍🏻
@@haydenwalton2766 A “push shot” in pool is clearly defined, and many examples are demonstrated, here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/push/ Hitting into a frozen OB is not a “push shot.” With a small-gap shot, it is really immaterial whether the tip is is contact with the CB during OB contact. The result of the shot is indistinguishable from a double hit. If the motion of the CB forward of the tangent line indicates a foul, the shot is a foul, regardless of the details of the physics.
@@DrDaveBilliardsread the first paragraph of the rules you showed again. it describes a foul that is neither a double hit nor a frozen ball - this is a push shot, even though it doesn't describe it as such. edit - I deleted the 6:29 push shot objection. obviously ok under pool rules
@@haydenwalton2766 Again, a “push shot” has a specific meaning in pool: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/push/ Concerning the tip still being in contact with the CB during contact with an OB a small gap away, the result of the shot (errant CB motion) is indistinguishable from that of a double hit. The detailed physics, and what you call it, isn’t really unimportant. It still looks like a double-hit foul.
@@haydenwalton2766you have no clue what you are talking about. If the cue tip never leaves the cue ball, but follows through with it for 5ft, it is still a legal, one touch, hit. If you hit the cue ball, then accelerate and hit it again after it has left your tip, then that is a double hit. Not a “push shot”. Also, at 8:33, it is an obvious foul BECAUSE: the player hits low on the cue ball, yet it goes past the tangent line off the object ball. It was a double hit that is extremely hard to see. It’s not a push shot. It’s a double hit. In pool, if the balls are frozen, they are considered one entity, and as long as your tip doesn’t leave the cue ball and then strike it again, it is a legal shot.
Thank you do Doc. I will use this video for people that want to argue after an obvious double hit! I've been playing seriously for 55 years and I still learn a lot from your videos. You deserve a spot in the pool hall hall of fame!
@@lesterweinheimer665 Thank you for your kind words. Please encourage people to watch this video sooner rather than later so when suspect shots come up in the future, they will be more aware of what to look for.
At this point I almost want to advocate for making double hits legal in APA when the CB/OB are close enough. So tired of the arguments at league night, and there are so few players in the entire league who could even identify double hits if called to watch the shot. Like others in the comments I usually just let them happen even though you can already tell during shot selection that it's going to occur. Thanks for spreading the truth, Dr. Dave
Please try to encourage your league operator and players to spread the word about the video so more people will better understand the rule and how to easily enforce it. I know ... I'm dreaming. :)
Another excellent double-hit video, Dr. Dave. A noble attempt to cure an incurable disease amongst a large number of league players. I've tried showing your earlier videos to some of our frequent violators and they either shy away or give me the "deer in the headlights" look. Oh well, it usually comes back to bite them in the butt in a tournament with a ref looking over their shoulder.
@@MikeyD22 Please share this video with them also. I think this video is better, getting the important information across more simply and clearly with less chance for confusion or uncertainty.
Better players than me will have to watch the shot. I’ll never remember most of this. Great vid and love the slo-mo, helps me to understand what they mean by double kiss.
Thanks Dr Dave. Great video and much needed in the pool community. The last two are def the hardest to detect since the cb only moves fwd a bit. I guess the second hit comes from the shaft correct? As opposed to the one earlier which had a larger gap in which cb jumped fwd and didn't touch shaft.
With a small gap, moderate cue elevation, and moderate speed, the CB does not hop high enough into the OB to cause the CB to launch forward. The 2nd hit by the tip or shaft cause the forward motion and exaggerated hop.
@@tiberiusiorgulescu The Matchroom events follow the same rules, including frozen balls. The only rule differences deal with the break (9 on spot, break from box, “forceful” break required).
@@DrDaveBilliards I will come back on this topic with more evidence. Surely someone can get in touch with the refs and have a strong position by them, right?
@@tiberiusiorgulescu I communicate with one of their refs frequently. It is not a foul to hit into a frozen OB. Now, if there is even a tiny gap between the balls, the story is completely different. See my recent video on this topic as an example: Skyler Woodward Foul at the European Open … The Controversy is Settled ua-cam.com/video/GkevZphxq7Q/v-deo.html
One thing I always do when at the table is stop and ask for a watch when there is potential for a foul (double hit or hitting the wrong ball first). I don't keep shooting even if my opponent says nothing. I ask him if we should get a watch. I feel that is the proper pool etiquette as the shooter is at times more aware that a potential foul could occur on the upcoming shot (for instance when trying to hit the correct ball on a kick shot).
in my League some team do this then there some that don't then they will sit in their chair say look like foul happen but no one was watching potential foul shot
@@dangoldenberg704 That is always a good practice. Using slo-mo video on a smartphone can also be quite helpful, because not all Players are good “watchers” with live shots. We need to convince those players to watch this video.
Last week in my 9 Ball league we had a hot dispute over a double hit foul my team called on the opponent. Classic double hit, with the CB flying after the object ball, with no hesitation and high speed. The other player thought because he elevated his cue, the hit had to be legal. Wish we'd had an impartial observer or video on a phone equipped with a slo-mo app.
@@garybkatz It might also help in the future if the disputing players watch this video. You should suggest it to them. Other videos dealing specifically with highly-elevated shots can be found here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/ and here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/examples/
@@garybkatz the problem is that some leagues try to dumb it down by saying that by rule it cannot be a foul if you elevate your cue (whether a double hit occurs or not). If that’s the rule in your league, the shooter was right. If it isn’t the rule, then the shooter has been tricked by bad rules in other leagues.
@@gideonf8696 Yeah, APA is like that. My league is independent so we don't have such a silly rule. Unfortunately some players think it's universal, lol! It would be nice to cancel out a foul simply by elevating your cue, but I prefer an actual legal hit, as you probably do, too.
Another great video Doc. I have a question unrelated to this video, about leather tips. I've been using leather tips on my cue for years and over time they wear down and I replace it with a new one. I think they wear down from the abrasiveness of the chalk being applied. I don't grind it in, I wipe it on. I was wondering if you have ever heard of a synthetic tip or a rubber tip that could be used instead of a leather tip? Maybe if someone developed a rubber tip you wouldn't even need to use chalk any more and the tip might last almost forever. I would think someone would have thought of this before and for some reason it must not have worked very well. Have you ever heard of such a thing?
Thank you. Some companies and people have tried to develop a chalk-less tip before. I agree that it would be an awesome thing, but nobody has succeeded yet. It is not as easy as it might sound.
Soft rubbers may have enough friction, but they are also "bouncy" and have the tendency to "stick" and collect dirt, losing said friction. Also, shaping them may be challenging. Hard rubbers on the other hand may not have enough friction to begin with.
@@Elite7555 Thanks for your response. So, have there been soft rubber tips and hard rubber tips on the market that I am not aware of? I'm just curious because I have never come across them. At one time pool balls were made of ivory. We now use phenolic resin balls after ivory became obsolete. I think they might perform better than ivory balls. I could be wrong though, because I've never played with ivory balls. I'm not against leather because of peta or anything like that. I love a good steak and a nice pair of cowboy boots as much as the next guy. I have just been wondering if there might be a better material than leather for a cue tip. I remember reading that when ivory started to become scarce, that the billiard industry put out a challenge to find a better material to make billiard balls out of a new material. It's kind of like shafts. Maple used to be the material of choice. Now, everyone seems to be using carbon fiber. I predict that soon someone will come out with a new synthetic tip that will be the next best thing since sliced bread. Maybe 3M can come up with a new cue tip material for us pool players like John Wesley Hyatt did with "plastic" balls.
I like how in the Fargo league I play in they allow the player to ask for observation by one of the league organizers and slow motion video review for a third party assessment of if a shot was legal. They know what a legal shot looks like and can make the call. May not be 100%, but having that third party helps eliminate a lot of argument.
@@TARDIS326 Agreed. An impartial and knowledgeable observer is invaluable, especially if they use a smartphone slo-mo video for instant replay if necessary.
I've given up on trying to call foul and argue with my opponent when they double hit. I'll start showing the video right before the attempt to shoot the shot.
I wish all pool players (especially league players) could be required to watch this video. I think it is the best double-hit video I have done to date, and I think anybody who views this video would be better at detecting and avoiding double-hit fouls.
I've also given up arguing, and most of the time the foul shot is to the opponents disadvantage anyway since they gravely misjudge the cue balls position.
I'm the same. Even when you asked someone to watch it's often not called. I wonder how people would feel about asking to record it in slow motion. It's usually not worth the arguing that ensues, but it's so frustrating.
@@TheRealjce funny how some teams would watch then other team have no one watch because they know your game , then talk loudly was that a foul and then you miss shot you should not miss , Rotation Master should do another video on distraction video
I play in VNEA and our rules are different. Sad but true. I'm a gooder banger than most, I have given up calling fouls on weaker bangers. When I play gooder players (most) are honest enough to call fouls on themselves, like I do. Even with the weaker bangers. I usually have to explain why I call a foul on myself. It's just a game. If I'm cheating I'm not really winning. Great video as always.
@@adamdozier5757 Thanks. I play VNEA also. All the rules in this video apply in VNEA also. All the VNEA rule differences are summarized here: billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/rule-differences
I've rewatched the shot at 8:35 multiple times. You say it's an obvious foul, but I only see 1 hit. It's an elevated cue, causing the cue ball to strike the object ball above center therefore not transfer 100% energy and still have some forward energy itself. What do you see that makes this obvious? Great content, as always!!!
The CB is pushed forward much more than it should for a shot like this (with such a small gap and not nearly enough cue elevation). There is a double hit.
Unrelated question, but I was reading your "8-ball and 9-ball rules summary" article the other day, and you mention that it's not necessary to call the pocket if it is "totally obvious". Well I'm a noob, and sometimes I'm clearly aiming at a pocket directly, but miss horribly and carom into another ball to then end up in the pocket I was aiming for. I'm wondering, does this count as hitting the called pocket or not? It's obviously not executed the intended way, and if I had intended the carom shot I would have had to call it. But I also see an argument that my called pocket is "locked in" after I shoot towards the obvious pocket, and that the path to get there shouldn't matter. Thoughts?
One of the first draw shots looked like a double hit (1:10 in your video). I know you felt the camera angle was such that it “may have appeared, but wasn’t”, but it sure looked like there was a short pause (hitting the cue) before fully drawing back. 🤷🏻
@@dljeung Looks can be deceiving, especially when the camera angle is less than perfect. This shot could certainly not be called a foul since there is no clear evidence of a foul.
You are right. I looked again closely at the shadow on the table and saw that there was always some daylight between the ball and the cue. It almost looks as if your tip was to the right of the ball as it drew back.
What if in hypothetical situation, there were 3 (or more)frozen balls in line (first cue ball and then 2 obs) and you have to strike into the cueball just like in the video? As I understand it’s not a foul because frozen balls act like one ball essentially because there is no gap between them. But if there are more frozen balls does one need greater power to overcome friction of the cloth and greater mass?
First question as you’ve presented is a clear yes. But I believe that the tip of the cue acts like some sort of a string in these types of situations. Even tho this video answers A LOT of questions, it raises a few new ones…
Can YOU do a video on how to detect a foul if the object ball is near the cushion . It’s hard to tell wen the cue ball either thin cut the object or went cushion first .
I have covered this in several videos that can be found here, especially the two dealing with SVB's shot in the UK Open: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/examples/ Check them out.
Hi Dr Dave. Ive started scripting a new video that I'll have coming out in a couple of weeks. I'd like to reference your video on throw if you're ok with that? What's really odd is in the UK, throw isn't something that's acknowledged as even existing. Obviously in the States it's not even up for debate. My video is on why 2 countries playing the same sport can have such a polar view on whether something even exists.
Sorry for the delayed response. I didn’t see your comment until now. Feel free to reference any of my throw videos or other resources. All of it can be found here: billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/throw/ and here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/ BTW, how calls are cleaned and polished makes a big difference. See: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/ball/cleaning/ Please send me a link to the video when it is done. I’d like to see it.
hello can i ask a question? mechanic installed new cloth on my table and he streched the cloth well hard on bed and cushions on my table but now i feel my cushions doesnot take spin shot as well as before cushions doesnot rebound wider or thighter during the right or left spins can you tell me what is the problem?
Good video, as always. However, for the sound test the five shots are too fast (close together). The viewer doesn’t have enough time to listen to one, categorize it and then listen to the next one.
@@uncahay In snooker, hitting into a frozen OB is called a “push.” In pool, a “push shot” is something entirely different, per the explanations and demonstrations here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/push/
@@KK-sg5gl A push is when the tip of the cue maintains contact with the cue ball for longer than is necessary for a normal shot. It's done on purpose for some trick shots, but is illegal in normal play. Edit: @DrDaveBilliards yes, that link is what I'm talking about. Totally different from a double hit, yet people often call a double hit a "push". Drives me crazy as a BCA ref.
@@uncahaythere are at least three different definitions of a push shot 1. hitting into a touching object ball (snooker) 2. when the cue tip is in contact with the cue ball at the same time it is in contact with the object ball (often difficult to determine, and certainly hard to word in a ruling) 3. what you stated - the cue tip being in contact for an unnatural amount of time. I made a comment about this under dave's head comment, if you're interested
As long as the cue tip never leaves the cue ball and then hits it again, any length of cue stick follow through is legal. As a side note, Dr. Dave has videos showing that even long follow through, the tip doesn’t stay in contact with the cue ball for very long.
On the topic of calling close and hard to spot fouls in general, one must not only be an expert but also the call must be instant, decisive and permanent. If it takes you a few seconds to process and consider what you saw before making the call then you immediately lose credibility. If you quickly make the wrong call and then reverse it trying to make things right you will only make things worse. I recently watched one of the informal matches that Efren Reyes often plays in his homeland. A young fellow was officiating. Efren had a long shot to a close pair, it was clearly a good hit and the guy called FOUL. Efren went HUH?? The guy firmly repeated FOUL and stuck to it. Even though I think he knew he was wrong, he had no choice but to stick to it. Efren shrugged it off, and as I recall it didn't affect the outcome of the match anyway. It just made me think about how I wouldn't want to be the guy who has to make the call and blows it.
I play against a friend who when the cue ball is next to a cluster of balls, he'll hit the cue ball and he'll extend his cue stick through the cluster of balls. How do I explain to him that's it's an illegal shot?
@@tomhiggins875 Easy. Have him watch this video. Better yet, have him watch all the videos here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/ and here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/examples/
Have him check out the videos here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/ and here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/examples/ That should convince him.
in league when people are sitting and shot like these come up normally there are team will watch shot call foul or not , but i have one team that don't they sit in there chair talking and then be like look like foul happen , no one was watching like other team do so i don't want hear someone call foul when no one watching like other team does
@@MikeBilliardsFun78 Of a shot might result in a foul, you should always have an impartial and knowledgeable observer watch the shot. The slo-mo video feature in a smartphone can also be very helpful.
We have “pros” on UA-cam saying that they’ve hit a shot a certain way for 30 years so it must be legal, when in fact it’s a double hit… Can’t wait for all the “hustlers” to be gone from the game.
@@Chris-ez1yo Yep. For those interested, see: “Skyler Woodward Foul at the European Open … The Controversy is Settled:” ua-cam.com/video/GkevZphxq7Q/v-deo.html
*Contents:*
0:00 - Intro
0:33 - Straight Shots
2:39 - Angled Shots
4:32 - See No Evil, Hear No Evil
5:53 - Frozen CB
6:58 - Elevated Cue
8:41 - Wrap Up
*Supporting Resources:*
- double hit resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/
- pool rules resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/
- fouls resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/
- example bad calls made during pro tournament matches: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/examples/
- pool rules quiz: billiards.colostate.edu/rules-quiz/
*Subscribe to Dr. Dave's UA-cam Channel:*
ua-cam.com/users/DrDaveBilliards
this is one of my main gripes with SOME cue sport rules (snooker has this worked out).
the section you showed is headed 'double hits/frozen balls', but it actually discusses double hits, PUSH SHOTS and frozen balls.
push shots are described but not named. this alone results in confusion.
to add to the confusion there is a clear double standard regarding push shots.
example -
why is it a foul when one plays a shot where the cue tip is in contact with the cue ball at the same time that the cue ball is in contact with the object ball - when the "balls are close" (how close ? - I know from experience, but it doesn't seem to be stated in the rules), but - it is ok to plough into the cue ball when it is touching the object ball ?? it's the same principle /physics !!
it makes no logical sense !
I realise that it is quite difficult to determine when a push shot takes place (as it implies in the rules - "assumed not to violate").
anyway, I do my best but it's often hard to convey these ideas in text.
I've no problem with your excellent double hit analysis, apart from -
8:33 they are fouls because they are push shots. you didn't say why.
keep up the good work, I generally enjoy your videos, even if I don't always agree👍🏻
@@haydenwalton2766 A “push shot” in pool is clearly defined, and many examples are demonstrated, here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/push/
Hitting into a frozen OB is not a “push shot.”
With a small-gap shot, it is really immaterial whether the tip is is contact with the CB during OB contact. The result of the shot is indistinguishable from a double hit. If the motion of the CB forward of the tangent line indicates a foul, the shot is a foul, regardless of the details of the physics.
@@DrDaveBilliardsread the first paragraph of the rules you showed again. it describes a foul that is neither a double hit nor a frozen ball - this is a push shot, even though it doesn't describe it as such.
edit - I deleted the 6:29 push shot objection. obviously ok under pool rules
@@haydenwalton2766 Again, a “push shot” has a specific meaning in pool:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/push/
Concerning the tip still being in contact with the CB during contact with an OB a small gap away, the result of the shot (errant CB motion) is indistinguishable from that of a double hit. The detailed physics, and what you call it, isn’t really unimportant. It still looks like a double-hit foul.
@@haydenwalton2766you have no clue what you are talking about. If the cue tip never leaves the cue ball, but follows through with it for 5ft, it is still a legal, one touch, hit. If you hit the cue ball, then accelerate and hit it again after it has left your tip, then that is a double hit. Not a “push shot”.
Also, at 8:33, it is an obvious foul BECAUSE: the player hits low on the cue ball, yet it goes past the tangent line off the object ball. It was a double hit that is extremely hard to see. It’s not a push shot. It’s a double hit.
In pool, if the balls are frozen, they are considered one entity, and as long as your tip doesn’t leave the cue ball and then strike it again, it is a legal shot.
Thank you do Doc. I will use this video for people that want to argue after an obvious double hit! I've been playing seriously for 55 years and I still learn a lot from your videos. You deserve a spot in the pool hall hall of fame!
@@lesterweinheimer665 Thank you for your kind words. Please encourage people to watch this video sooner rather than later so when suspect shots come up in the future, they will be more aware of what to look for.
Dr. Dave, making better pool/billiards referees, one video at a time!
... and better (more knowledgeable) league players too (I hope). :)
@@DrDaveBilliards The rising tide lifts all boats!
@@kurtkensson2059 ... only the "boats" who watch the video. :)
@@DrDaveBilliards Moral of the story: Don't be the S.S. Minnow.
P-Dawg is the reason I subscribed. Thumbs up for good friends that give you great advice!
I owe it all to Dr. Dave after watching his videos and seeing him in person at the APA Nationals in Las Vegas. Thanks Doc! 🎱😎
You're welcome. I aim to swerve. :)
Did you mean the VNEA Nationals? I haven't been to APA Nationals.
At this point I almost want to advocate for making double hits legal in APA when the CB/OB are close enough. So tired of the arguments at league night, and there are so few players in the entire league who could even identify double hits if called to watch the shot.
Like others in the comments I usually just let them happen even though you can already tell during shot selection that it's going to occur.
Thanks for spreading the truth, Dr. Dave
Please try to encourage your league operator and players to spread the word about the video so more people will better understand the rule and how to easily enforce it. I know ... I'm dreaming. :)
Another excellent double-hit video, Dr. Dave. A noble attempt to cure an incurable disease amongst a large number of league players. I've tried showing your earlier videos to some of our frequent violators and they either shy away or give me the "deer in the headlights" look. Oh well, it usually comes back to bite them in the butt in a tournament with a ref looking over their shoulder.
@@MikeyD22 Please share this video with them also. I think this video is better, getting the important information across more simply and clearly with less chance for confusion or uncertainty.
Better players than me will have to watch the shot. I’ll never remember most of this. Great vid and love the slo-mo, helps me to understand what they mean by double kiss.
@@rushodai929 I’m glad you liked it and learned something. BTW, a “double kiss” is very different from a “double hit,” but I know what you meant.
Dr. Dave always delivers good info.👍
Thanks Coco.
Thanks Dr Dave. Great video and much needed in the pool community. The last two are def the hardest to detect since the cb only moves fwd a bit. I guess the second hit comes from the shaft correct? As opposed to the one earlier which had a larger gap in which cb jumped fwd and didn't touch shaft.
With a small gap, moderate cue elevation, and moderate speed, the CB does not hop high enough into the OB to cause the CB to launch forward. The 2nd hit by the tip or shaft cause the forward motion and exaggerated hop.
Thanks again! This video will come in handy for people who still don't know.
@@dksittingduck Please encourage “those who don’t know” to watch the video.
@@DrDaveBilliards Yes sir!
I feel like matchroom events use a different set of rules, especially on the frozen ball topic. With the rest I am 100% fully agree with you Mr Dave.
@@tiberiusiorgulescu The Matchroom events follow the same rules, including frozen balls. The only rule differences deal with the break (9 on spot, break from box, “forceful” break required).
@@DrDaveBilliards I will come back on this topic with more evidence. Surely someone can get in touch with the refs and have a strong position by them, right?
@@tiberiusiorgulescu I communicate with one of their refs frequently. It is not a foul to hit into a frozen OB. Now, if there is even a tiny gap between the balls, the story is completely different. See my recent video on this topic as an example:
Skyler Woodward Foul at the European Open … The Controversy is Settled
ua-cam.com/video/GkevZphxq7Q/v-deo.html
yep call a foul on myself last weekend on tournament. the guy had no idea.
Good for you. We need more people like you who know the rules and are honest.
I call my double hits, too, and in case there is any doubt I let the opponent make the decision, me insisting that it was a foul.
@@kokehri Good for you.
@@kokehri I also just make them aware of it before they attempt the shot.
Thank you for the video!
@@Mignuke You’re welcome. I hope all the people who need a video like this are encouraged to watch it.
One thing I always do when at the table is stop and ask for a watch when there is potential for a foul (double hit or hitting the wrong ball first). I don't keep shooting even if my opponent says nothing. I ask him if we should get a watch. I feel that is the proper pool etiquette as the shooter is at times more aware that a potential foul could occur on the upcoming shot (for instance when trying to hit the correct ball on a kick shot).
in my League some team do this then there some that don't then they will sit in their chair say look like foul happen but no one was watching potential foul shot
@@dangoldenberg704 That is always a good practice. Using slo-mo video on a smartphone can also be quite helpful, because not all
Players are good “watchers” with live shots. We need to convince those players to watch this video.
Many many thanks ❤ dear Dr. Dave 😍
@@TapashRozario You’re welcome. I aim to swerve. 🤓
Last week in my 9 Ball league we had a hot dispute over a double hit foul my team called on the opponent. Classic double hit, with the CB flying after the object ball, with no hesitation and high speed. The other player thought because he elevated his cue, the hit had to be legal. Wish we'd had an impartial observer or video on a phone equipped with a slo-mo app.
@@garybkatz It might also help in the future if the disputing players watch this video. You should suggest it to them. Other videos dealing specifically with highly-elevated shots can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/
and here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/examples/
@@garybkatz the problem is that some leagues try to dumb it down by saying that by rule it cannot be a foul if you elevate your cue (whether a double hit occurs or not). If that’s the rule in your league, the shooter was right. If it isn’t the rule, then the shooter has been tricked by bad rules in other leagues.
@@gideonf8696 Yeah, APA is like that. My league is independent so we don't have such a silly rule. Unfortunately some players think it's universal, lol! It would be nice to cancel out a foul simply by elevating your cue, but I prefer an actual legal hit, as you probably do, too.
Another great video Doc. I have a question unrelated to this video, about leather tips. I've been using leather tips on my cue for years and over time they wear down and I replace it with a new one. I think they wear down from the abrasiveness of the chalk being applied. I don't grind it in, I wipe it on. I was wondering if you have ever heard of a synthetic tip or a rubber tip that could be used instead of a leather tip? Maybe if someone developed a rubber tip you wouldn't even need to use chalk any more and the tip might last almost forever. I would think someone would have thought of this before and for some reason it must not have worked very well. Have you ever heard of such a thing?
Thank you. Some companies and people have tried to develop a chalk-less tip before. I agree that it would be an awesome thing, but nobody has succeeded yet. It is not as easy as it might sound.
@@DrDaveBilliards Thanks for the info Doc.
Pool Dawg have Spinster Grip-Tip Chalkless Cue Tip there youtube on it years ago , probably not recommended for League maybe home use
Soft rubbers may have enough friction, but they are also "bouncy" and have the tendency to "stick" and collect dirt, losing said friction. Also, shaping them may be challenging. Hard rubbers on the other hand may not have enough friction to begin with.
@@Elite7555 Thanks for your response. So, have there been soft rubber tips and hard rubber tips on the market that I am not aware of? I'm just curious because I have never come across them. At one time pool balls were made of ivory. We now use phenolic resin balls after ivory became obsolete. I think they might perform better than ivory balls. I could be wrong though, because I've never played with ivory balls. I'm not against leather because of peta or anything like that. I love a good steak and a nice pair of cowboy boots as much as the next guy. I have just been wondering if there might be a better material than leather for a cue tip. I remember reading that when ivory started to become scarce, that the billiard industry put out a challenge to find a better material to make billiard balls out of a new material. It's kind of like shafts. Maple used to be the material of choice. Now, everyone seems to be using carbon fiber. I predict that soon someone will come out with a new synthetic tip that will be the next best thing since sliced bread. Maybe 3M can come up with a new cue tip material for us pool players like John Wesley Hyatt did with "plastic" balls.
I like how in the Fargo league I play in they allow the player to ask for observation by one of the league organizers and slow motion video review for a third party assessment of if a shot was legal. They know what a legal shot looks like and can make the call. May not be 100%, but having that third party helps eliminate a lot of argument.
@@TARDIS326 Agreed. An impartial and knowledgeable observer is invaluable, especially if they use a smartphone slo-mo video for instant replay if necessary.
I've given up on trying to call foul and argue with my opponent when they double hit. I'll start showing the video right before the attempt to shoot the shot.
I wish all pool players (especially league players) could be required to watch this video. I think it is the best double-hit video I have done to date, and I think anybody who views this video would be better at detecting and avoiding double-hit fouls.
that what Japan does they take videos
I've also given up arguing, and most of the time the foul shot is to the opponents disadvantage anyway since they gravely misjudge the cue balls position.
I'm the same. Even when you asked someone to watch it's often not called. I wonder how people would feel about asking to record it in slow motion. It's usually not worth the arguing that ensues, but it's so frustrating.
@@TheRealjce funny how some teams would watch then other team have no one watch because they know your game , then talk loudly was that a foul and then you miss shot you should not miss , Rotation Master should do another video on distraction video
I play in VNEA and our rules are different. Sad but true. I'm a gooder banger than most, I have given up calling fouls on weaker bangers. When I play gooder players (most) are honest enough to call fouls on themselves, like I do. Even with the weaker bangers. I usually have to explain why I call a foul on myself. It's just a game. If I'm cheating I'm not really winning. Great video as always.
@@adamdozier5757 Thanks. I play VNEA also. All the rules in this video apply in VNEA also. All the VNEA rule differences are summarized here:
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/rule-differences
I've rewatched the shot at 8:35 multiple times. You say it's an obvious foul, but I only see 1 hit. It's an elevated cue, causing the cue ball to strike the object ball above center therefore not transfer 100% energy and still have some forward energy itself. What do you see that makes this obvious? Great content, as always!!!
The CB is pushed forward much more than it should for a shot like this (with such a small gap and not nearly enough cue elevation). There is a double hit.
Ever evaluated Mike Massey's side arm wrist flick shot to avoid double kiss? It's on UA-cam
Yes. It is one of the techniques in my "10 Useful Ways to AVOID A DOUBLE HIT Foul" video:
ua-cam.com/video/9RA9DZur99g/v-deo.html
Honestly, I think many of the other techniques in the video are much better for most people.
Unrelated question, but I was reading your "8-ball and 9-ball rules summary" article the other day, and you mention that it's not necessary to call the pocket if it is "totally obvious".
Well I'm a noob, and sometimes I'm clearly aiming at a pocket directly, but miss horribly and carom into another ball to then end up in the pocket I was aiming for.
I'm wondering, does this count as hitting the called pocket or not? It's obviously not executed the intended way, and if I had intended the carom shot I would have had to call it. But I also see an argument that my called pocket is "locked in" after I shoot towards the obvious pocket, and that the path to get there shouldn't matter.
Thoughts?
@@herleikholtan7850 All that matters is the called or intended pocket. If it goes, you keep shooting, regardless of how the ball gets to the pocket.
@@DrDaveBilliards Makes sense, thanks!
One of the first draw shots looked like a double hit (1:10 in your video). I know you felt the camera angle was such that it “may have appeared, but wasn’t”, but it sure looked like there was a short pause (hitting the cue) before fully drawing back. 🤷🏻
@@dljeung Looks can be deceiving, especially when the camera angle is less than perfect. This shot could certainly not be called a foul since there is no clear evidence of a foul.
You are right. I looked again closely at the shadow on the table and saw that there was always some daylight between the ball and the cue. It almost looks as if your tip was to the right of the ball as it drew back.
@@dljeung Nice observation with the shadow, and thank you for agreeing.
What if in hypothetical situation, there were 3 (or more)frozen balls in line (first cue ball and then 2 obs) and you have to strike into the cueball just like in the video? As I understand it’s not a foul because frozen balls act like one ball essentially because there is no gap between them. But if there are more frozen balls does one need greater power to overcome friction of the cloth and greater mass?
First question as you’ve presented is a clear yes. But I believe that the tip of the cue acts like some sort of a string in these types of situations. Even tho this video answers A LOT of questions, it raises a few new ones…
@@AlexC-dy3ni Yes, with 2 or more frozen balls, there is more mass and a greater force in the hit. But the hit is still legal.
#4 sounded like a foul. Got all the others correct.
Nice job.
Great video. Sound test was too fast for me, I had to stop the video.
Sorry about that. I should have repeated each 3 times, with a pause between the shots.
Can YOU do a video on how to detect a foul if the object ball is near the cushion . It’s hard to tell wen the cue ball either thin cut the object or went cushion first .
I have covered this in several videos that can be found here, especially the two dealing with SVB's shot in the UK Open:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/examples/
Check them out.
Hi Dr Dave. Ive started scripting a new video that I'll have coming out in a couple of weeks. I'd like to reference your video on throw if you're ok with that?
What's really odd is in the UK, throw isn't something that's acknowledged as even existing. Obviously in the States it's not even up for debate.
My video is on why 2 countries playing the same sport can have such a polar view on whether something even exists.
Sorry for the delayed response. I didn’t see your comment until now. Feel free to reference any of my throw videos or other resources. All of it can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/throw/
and here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/
BTW, how calls are cleaned and polished makes a big difference. See:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/ball/cleaning/
Please send me a link to the video when it is done. I’d like to see it.
hello can i ask a question? mechanic installed new cloth on my table and he streched the cloth well hard on bed and cushions on my table but now i feel my cushions doesnot take spin shot as well as before cushions doesnot rebound wider or thighter during the right or left spins can you tell me what is the problem?
@@rezajamshidi7436 There is no problem. This is what new cloth does. It will eventually “relax” a little and play more normally.
Good video, as always. However, for the sound test the five shots are too fast (close together). The viewer doesn’t have enough time to listen to one, categorize it and then listen to the next one.
Good point. Pausing the video before each shot clip (maybe during the 2nd time I play the audio for each shot) would be helpful here.
I just wish everyone would stop calling this a "push".
A push is a completely different foul.
Explain what a push is and the difference.
@@uncahay In snooker, hitting into a frozen OB is called a “push.” In pool, a “push shot” is something entirely different, per the explanations and demonstrations here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/push/
@@KK-sg5gl A push is when the tip of the cue maintains contact with the cue ball for longer than is necessary for a normal shot. It's done on purpose for some trick shots, but is illegal in normal play.
Edit: @DrDaveBilliards yes, that link is what I'm talking about. Totally different from a double hit, yet people often call a double hit a "push". Drives me crazy as a BCA ref.
@@uncahaythere are at least three different definitions of a push shot
1. hitting into a touching object ball (snooker)
2. when the cue tip is in contact with the cue ball at the same time it is in contact with the object ball (often difficult to determine, and certainly hard to word in a ruling)
3. what you stated - the cue tip being in contact for an unnatural amount of time.
I made a comment about this under dave's head comment, if you're interested
As long as the cue tip never leaves the cue ball and then hits it again, any length of cue stick follow through is legal.
As a side note, Dr. Dave has videos showing that even long follow through, the tip doesn’t stay in contact with the cue ball for very long.
On the topic of calling close and hard to spot fouls in general, one must not only be an expert but also the call must be instant, decisive and permanent. If it takes you a few seconds to process and consider what you saw before making the call then you immediately lose credibility. If you quickly make the wrong call and then reverse it trying to make things right you will only make things worse. I recently watched one of the informal matches that Efren Reyes often plays in his homeland. A young fellow was officiating. Efren had a long shot to a close pair, it was clearly a good hit and the guy called FOUL. Efren went HUH?? The guy firmly repeated FOUL and stuck to it. Even though I think he knew he was wrong, he had no choice but to stick to it. Efren shrugged it off, and as I recall it didn't affect the outcome of the match anyway. It just made me think about how I wouldn't want to be the guy who has to make the call and blows it.
@@onemoremisfit When an “expert” is not available, the slo-mo video feature on a smart phone can be very helpful.
Now that's a really good idea@@DrDaveBilliards
I play against a friend who when the cue ball is next to a cluster of balls, he'll hit the cue ball and he'll extend his cue stick through the cluster of balls. How do I explain to him that's it's an illegal shot?
@@tomhiggins875 Easy. Have him watch this video. Better yet, have him watch all the videos here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/
and here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/examples/
Well, he understands that hitting any other ball but the cue ball is a foul, yes?
Have him check out the videos here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/
and here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/examples/
That should convince him.
in league when people are sitting and shot like these come up normally there are team will watch shot call foul or not , but i have one team that don't they sit in there chair talking and then be like look like foul happen , no one was watching like other team do so i don't want hear someone call foul when no one watching like other team does
i Like Japan Pool they make videos of shots like these in the video
@@MikeBilliardsFun78 Of a shot might result in a foul, you should always have an impartial and knowledgeable observer watch the shot. The slo-mo video feature in a smartphone can also be very helpful.
We have “pros” on UA-cam saying that they’ve hit a shot a certain way for 30 years so it must be legal, when in fact it’s a double hit…
Can’t wait for all the “hustlers” to be gone from the game.
I also look forward to the day when “bar rules” is also a thing of the past:
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/bar-rules
@Skylar Woodward
@@Chris-ez1yo Yep. For those interested, see:
“Skyler Woodward Foul at the European Open … The Controversy is Settled:”
ua-cam.com/video/GkevZphxq7Q/v-deo.html