I just want to say I can’t believe I have just discovered you and your channel. I’m 35 yrs in the hobby and now have a 6 yr old son that’s loving it. I had planned on going back to 1/8 scale racing. Hearing you explain and break down every section of rc has made my mind up about racing again! I’m in! You have made me realize what I was missing without knowing I was missing it. Thank you so much from the bottom of my rc heart. Best channel for information by far!!! Thank you!!
As an old racer from the 90s-00s yeah it’s not new but I like the way they are challenging what everyone else is doing - thats the way to get better 👍🏻 Enjoyed the reasoning and response here makes sense to me 👍🏻
Makes a lot of sense! The internal spring idea gets me, as it's the same as what we refer to as a Top Out Spring in the front forks of road racing motorcycles. The purpose is the same, and it's an area where control of the travel of the front end above 1g has a significant influence on the way the bike steers under acceleration. The way they transfer load during the pitch motion under acceleration is not dissimilar to a 2WD Buggy. Oh, and welcome to the grumpy old man club! Ha ha!
it was experimented back in the late 80s with paragon jump jet shocks. no benefit just dirtier shocks that had to get rebuilt more often as dirt ingressed easier. Granted tracks were rougher then. -U10
Thanks for a good video, tried it on a classic RC18 back in the days, and it was terrible 😂. Rather run them as they are designed to be used, and then adjust them for the surface i run on. 🤗
Hello JQ! I totally agree with everything you have said, the unsprung mass is in no way positive, and I totally agree that suspensions for radio control cars are very primitive on a technical level. I liked your new springs for shock absorbers, but in the hydraulic part I think that there is still much room for technological improvement.
I remember when the way we run our shocks now was considered upside down! 😂 Just look at old motocross bikes - now they all run with the way we do now with our cars since the mid 80's. JQ is bang on with his comments about unsprung weight - there's never a time when increasing it would be desirable. Progressive rate springs are a great idea - I used to run these on my 10th and 8th scale buggies. MIP used to sell them. They're great when you have a difficult track with a combination of bumpy, mixed traction and high jumps where finding what works for one section compromises the other. Putting springs or rubber fuel tubing under the piston used to prevent full droop from smashing the pistons off. Now of course we use droop screws. Full size off road buggies use tethers. Clearly the Hall brothers have great thumbs, but their interpretation of what their car adjustments is doing isn't quite what they think. Someone with the wherewithal to setup their buggies without putting the shocks 'the incorrect' way round will gain an advantage for them - by not increasing the unsprung weight. Great video. Not an easy subject and even harder when the content challenges information put out by respected, sponsored international drivers. 👍
on motorcycles its done to minimize the flex in the front fork to have the fat and stabile part up on the fork and the thinner more flexing part down where it cant fles as mutch as a regular fork does. check out dyno runs with different forks and the flex is apparent with upp or down forks
its all about the weight sonny, less weight on the part that is actually moving = more responsive suspension, easy as that dyno runs? kiddo please stop trolling@@extec101
@@ohhi5237 im not trolling we are speaking of the same thing in different ways, ok you talk about unsprung mass and im about flex in the forks. we are still talking about the properties of performance of a fork.
You forgot to mention never to put upside down the shocks outdoors and specific off road.The shock body will be damaged.Especially the threads will be in bad condition.Everything else...just GREAT!!!🤗🙂👍
wow JQ I watched your how your old video... TOP 5 WAYS To Be A FASTER RACER For NO MONEY - $0 and guess what i am now in A finals at my local club and now breaking into the Top 20 and another club :) although we do have 80 drivers and its TC racing :) loving your rants you speak so much sense, not like the BS out there
Very interesting I've seen few times shocks up side down on people's rigs ND wen I ask why the answer was always the shocks suck ND just piz fluid out of the seals being backwards helps I guess they say never new people did it for performance gain very interesting
I race on astro turf, was very impressed with the increased stability of the inverted springs, am interested to try the MIP pistons and under shock springs, seem like a great idea.
I raced in the 90s primarily. Off-road and then through the beginning and growth of electric touring. I have done all of these things described in this video. I can say that piston valves and internal springs were not available products back then. I entirely agree with everything JQ has advocated. For a moment there I thought he wasn't going to mention internal springs. They were the most difficult to achieve in balance with the suspension spring as one would significantly affect the other. However, indoors on carpet it would make a touring car like a magic carpet ride, so easy and predictable to drive, forgiving of variations in throttle and brake input. However, it was not beneficial in all circumstances and did little to nothing for the car outdoors on the tarmac circuits, indeed it proved detrimental where there were bumps and kerbs in the mix.
I can say on the B6.4 it dose improve the cornering massively, a few people that run a 6.4 tried my car out and said the same thing. That being said I honestly think it works so well with a 6.4 because of it's design. Granted I am fairly new to the hobby and I have been struggling to make my 6.4 corner like I want and ha e tried everything from shock oil, springs, pistons, and limiters. And none of it made the buggie corner like I wanted tell I flipped the rear shocks. Like I said though I am still fairly new to hobby and still learning but this did solve my cornering issue.
Great video and I agreed with it all but then I also finished on a thought of no car has the weight of the shocks at the highest point of the vehicle like rc so maybe the benefits of lower cg do out weight more unsprung mass in their case. Never thought I’d say that but we will never know until someone actually does back to back testing on all set ups multiple times for a good average. Great content from you both
@@invisiblespeedrc im thinking it is a differance in how the shock works, im no expert but for example the rear shock on a motocross is like ours on rc cars with the body upp and shock shaft down but under nitrogen preassure while the shocks on real cars is up side down compared to rc cars. havent figured out how this makes the shocks work differently by physics or if its just design that a real car got the shocks in a way that makes them not wonerable to weather and tear by the road as i seen lots if not all of off road cars like trophy trucks, king of hammers etc using shocks in a position as rc cars.
@@invisiblespeedrc Why is zero spring force a problem but minimal spring force with two stage springs isn't? I suppose you could heat shrink the tops too as a poor man's droop screw, but it might not hold up long.
@@extec101 Many cars had shocks that are actual structural to the suspension, the shock is the upper arm basically. MacPhereson strut is what it is called, and is done for economical reasons, not performance. It also may look like they are "upside down" but usually I think the oil is still up top, its just that the shock shaft is inside a bigger tube, because like I said, the shock is actually a structural part of the suspension, it needs to be more rigid.
Production road cars often have twin tube dampers where one is inside the other and the oil doesn't go through the piston, instead it is pushed and pulled through a valve into and back from the outer tube which is gas pressurised. The ly usually have the oil reservoir attached to the lower arm as JQ described for strength and rigidity. Competition shocks for the same cars ie coilovers are often monoshocks like RC cars and usually reverse the layout where the oil body is sprung weight, again like our models.
The only manufacturer that makes tenth scale progressive rate springs is Traxxas. I bought them because I have them on my full sized track car! Your analysis of the mechanics of this subject is very similar to my own conclusions, so I am glad to see some confirmation.
im sure its more then just trx that got progressive springs... xray got some in their asorment of springs. im sure its more manufacturer out there that also got springs.
i tried explaining this exact thing when some of our locals started doing this like 1.5-2 years ago. they act like they just discovered fire. its not new, guys were doing this in the 90s on carpet tracks.
In off-road racing at true scale buggies are tuned to hang the inside wheel through corners on purpose usually. They can rotate through the corner and accelerate out faster and they have more grip. So I’m not so sure that was necessarily a bad thing on that part.
The shocks don't act on the vehicle they control and influence the suspension arms travel. People think that you are using dampers to control the whole chassis when in fact they should actually be individually working to keep the tires on the surface as much as possible. Adding a shock body to a pivoting suspension arm will increase the arm load weight, keeping the arms swinging weight low would allow the spring to respond quicker and try to rebound sooner. Extra weight (inverted shock)would cause more floating due to the spring having to fight more weight.
@Sauli Luolajan-Mikkola when you say the chassis is not static that is incorrect. Really the only change you could make to one specific chassis would be weight. Technically the chassis is a non movable object nothing about it changes during operation. Now the motor does provide power to move the chassis dynamically through the environment, reactive forces outside of stationary are present on the model like inertia, centrifugal, gyroscopic, impactful still nothing about the chassis is designed to change to cope with those forces other than the suspension. The shocks and springs are not pushing your car up your car is, let's say...continuously in a state of free fall. When the tire encounters a rock or bump the vehicle inertia, momentum is on a straight path the suspension travel would allow the tire (in a perfect setup) to follow the terrain while transmitting the least amount of unwanted force into the static chassis. When people adjust their suspension to compensate for weight of a battery by pre loading the springs or moving the shock to different holes on the tower or arm they aren't really looking for the best handling. They are limiting suspension travel or making the suspension so rigid it almost becomes part of the chassis and typically they don't podium. Well now it's great that your frog won't bump its ass when it hops the vehicle may be stiff in the rear and want to oversteer and you may lose control at high speed over choppy terrain. It will cause bad attitude when leaving jumps and wheel hop on the landing. When I took suspension classes for my career it put suspension operation in a different perspective. Suspension starts from the ground up not top down. If you watch any Baja 1000 footage of those cars going over terrain at 100plus MPH you get an idea of what suspension is really about. The chassis is so smooth you could almost have a hot cup of coffee in your lap.
ANOTHER AWESOME VIDEO FROM JQQQQQQQ! Thanks again as always. Hopefully we have good weather and try some of these. it seems like you just cannot drive enough to get adequate feedack. How much to rent your services for a few hours in the US?😁😁
Where do you get the washers for rebound damping and springs for 1/10? Specifically AE B6/B7. Because I searched MIP and they only have it for 1/8 I believe. So your challenge is going to be hard to do if you can't find the parts! Well unless I guess someone makes them themselves.
Do you think this has an effect on what in full size would be high speed bump setting. If they are emulsion shocks then the volume compensation air can be compressed at high speed to give some high speed bump. Turn the over and that volume is in effect the other side of the piston so you don't get to compress it at high speed as your pushing against all oil????
the air is mixed with all the oil in the shock on an emulssion shock. just take one that you can hear a slight sound of air in and work it back and fort a couple of times and the sound disappere as the air is solved in to the oil.
Stadium trucks are basically the same a buggies except higher unsprung weight from bigger wheels and tires. They seem to run fine. Just flip the shocks and use lighter oil if you want faster movement.
Now everyone has homework to do. Everyone go and build a Tamiya TA06 chassis with inboard suspension which solves both problems of unsprung weight and lower COG
Any chance you could do a video about things that are rarely seen in 1:8 buggies? Things like chain and belt drives, pull and pushrod suspensions, third spring in the rear (see crono svm), carbon chassis (really stiff chassis) and so forth. I think it would be an interesting video for wider audience especially because to untrained eye all the buggies look really similar, So it would be intersting to hear why nobody does those things.
@@invisiblespeedrc Well it would be interesting to hear what was the problem some of them were trying to fix and why they suck at fixing it. I was just listing some examples, I'm sure you know some better or crazier ones.
I just left the track, and was testing my buggy (LD2) w/ the frt/Rear shocks upside dwn. Much flatter! However, any kind of bumps the buggy was unsetteled! Flat landing not good at all.
You'd have better results using smaller shocks and moving them in to increase the motion ratio then use stiffer sway bars than fliping shocks upside down.
Something that wasn’t touched on, in either video, is that the shocks are emulsion. In a bumpy environment, the emulsification happens fast and maintains. On a smooth surface, I feel like the air could settle to the “top”, then allow uncontrolled (or at least inconsistent) damping around full droop. Landing a jump for example, the initial touch down would have little to no damping. Same could happen when transitioning from full throttle to enter a turn. An abrupt change in height.
@Sauli Luolajan-Mikkola That's how emulsion works. They air is mixed into the oil, it doesnt change depending on which way the shock is. It's exactly the same. Open your shock after running and look. The air is mixed into the oil evenly. The direction of the shock makes no difference to that.
@Sauli Luolajan-Mikkola no, because as I said, the air bubbles mix into the oil. We are driving the car, not looking at it in the pits. It is irrelevant how it feels on the pit table after it has been stationary long enough for air to settle. That's why if you move an emulsion shock, it will feel different first, with an air pocket, but after you move it a few times in an out, it feels smooth in all positions.
So true inverted shocks are not a new thing I remember when motorcycles did this and it stuck but it never did in rc. It does make a lower center of gravity but not a change in weight transfer
on motorcycles its done to minimize the flex in the front fork to have the fat and stabile part up on the forl and the thinner more flexing part down where it cant fles as mutch as a regular fork does. check out dyno runs with different forks and the flex is apparent with upp or down forks.
Based on what I was able to hear from your video what I'm understanding is a word that I didn't hear in any of the videos from either you or from associated with the word centrifical which can be applied to side to side or up or down wouldn't really matter but they're actually are formulas for that but you need to get in touch with the high-tech race teams from F1 and perhaps even Daytona but nevertheless they're actually are formulas for this in the way you set up a car but yes I absolutely agree with how you do your videos and I thank you very much for hearing that keep up the good work.
Anything in motion has a practical application or affect which makes it act the way it does the only thing that I was actually saying is in the centrifugal situation is that there are in fact formulas for how that can be decided as to the actual effect and how it can be produced to be better going
It seems that both have just miss our the influence of the membrane inside the shock, that in the "normal" position provides less dumping precision then in the inverted position were there are no membrane direct influence. So in other word the menbrane influence the hidraulic shock natural worck in the diferent sides of the shocks and provide a small dual stage streng spring, Another exercise to be tested is to use harder mambrane or put inside the membrane one hard sponge to provide less membrane efect and more overhall suspension precision, even with the exact density of the silicone oil. 🧐
Emulsion shocks upside down would be air pumps would they not. The seals being up where they could be dry theres more chance to suck in air the shaft would essentially by like a push/pull pump like what is down hole in an oil well
Oh I did - I’m just being a smart ass :) I hope they take up the challenge. I’m thinking VRP might make pistons that can be installed “in reverse” and could be an option.
The first time I saw inverted shocks was on an RC10 back in the 80's. Along with some bullshit reason as to why it was better. Everyone was an engineer back in those days.
11:47 the b6.4 and the 74.2 ARENT meant to be raced on carpet??? because associated would disagree with you "The RC10B74.2 and RC10B74.2D introduce molded gearboxes front and rear, which lower the center of gravity by removing weight from high points of the car. We modified the differentials to improve rolling speed through turns and increase stability on landings, allowing the buggy to corner faster on high-grip carpet and clay tracks." and this next one is from the 6.4 page "engineers had the goals of improving jumping and landing, updating the steering feel to be "easy to drive fast," and making the buggy corner faster on high-grip carpet and clay.
RC placebo. I’ve done this back in the early 90’ because I thought it looked cool and I figured it would help prevent my shocks from leaking. Made no difference in performance
Your spring explanation is incorrect. The rate of the spring is the same in each direction, a softer spring moves more compression and extension than a stiffer spring, remember that to have the same ride height with a softer spring you have to increase preload!
I dont know if you are responding to me or a comment. With a short hard spring you can set rideheight with almost no preload. Meaning that the spring does nothing above rideheight. Then you have a very soft spring, or soft portion of the spring holding it in place for droop. With a soft spring, you have to have a lot of preload to set rideheight, and the spring force above rideheight will be higher than in the previous example.
@@invisiblespeedrc I'm responding to you, I got the impression that you inferred that a softer spring has less stored energy in extension above ride height. My example was for the same ride height so same stored energy in the springs being stiff or soft. Progressive springs are another beast, they're in series when the car is above ride height and single when the soft is compressed, therefore they have more displacement going extension than compression. I think we're on the same page, just the case that rc spring sets are most commonly the same free length across all springs in the set which to me is not ideal. Then there's also the case of the soft portion not being soft enough, as you said it has to be removed from working as soon before ride height as possible.
You know you’re being very adult here on this.😂 (fad) these are kids just moving shit around. Like you said do the homework and try to figure out a true complexity of a set up and how the geometry of the suspension can change the way it drives. Hardest thing I ever had to learn was how to set up a on road car. And learn the geometry of the suspension.
In the middle of a Canadian winter: you're lucky to get 'offroad' anything. It's carpet or rarely clay. And I'd prefer not to give up the satisfaction of getting a series of jumps just-right.
I think 'reducing' centre of gravity that the Hall brothers refer to really means 'lowering' the centre of gravity. I'm confident that flipping the shocks upside down will only minimally lower the CoG. If you take the percentage of the shocks vs the rest of the car, it's a tiny percentage, and the heaviest stuff like the battery and motor are already slung low in the chassis. On the other hand, if you compare the unsprung weight at each corner, and factor in the weight of the shock body after you turn the shocks upside down, this is a much higher percentage increase and is much more significant than the change to the CoG.
Man is trying to bless you with information and you insult him? STFU and learn something. He speaks slow and clear so you can follow. This is a good thing.
I have a question for you. I was out running my Traxxas Revo 3.3 yesterday. While running the fuel line came off the pressure nipple on my exhaust. For some reason the truck runs way faster, it's a significant difference without the back pressure. It's like night and day. It even sounds different. I'm assuming it's because it is leaning out the engine? I always assumed the engine would cut off due to lack of tank pressure, but it doesn't. I had ran a full tank before I figured it out. I thought "damn I'm getting good at tuning this thing it's like a rocket!" Nope, probably just almost blew it up. How bad is that for the motor?
Depending on how lean the tune was before it lost the pressure line. It could be very bad if it was run for long periods and already lean. Although if your original tune was good and it was only one tank it should be fine.
I was on the doorstep of buying an LDV van but after being informed that the warranty process is a nightmare.. that its got a lot of pages that if any mistakes are made even if it was a wrong number like 1234 when it was meant to be 1243... Other reasons for not buying was the lack of safety tech.. 360 camera, lane assist to know another car is next to you or in the blind spot... Also no direct LDV factory options for side windows... I ended up with a Hyundai Staria load... Which i had side windows installed as well as windows for the sliding doors..
ua-cam.com/video/kj9IKhLqSlg/v-deo.html
Great to hear your thoughts...Response is on the way!👌
Definitely the most technical information on UA-cam. Sometimes makes my brain hurt, but good stuff.
I just want to say I can’t believe I have just discovered you and your channel. I’m 35 yrs in the hobby and now have a 6 yr old son that’s loving it. I had planned on going back to 1/8 scale racing. Hearing you explain and break down every section of rc has made my mind up about racing again! I’m in! You have made me realize what I was missing without knowing I was missing it. Thank you so much from the bottom of my rc heart. Best channel for information by far!!! Thank you!!
As an old racer from the 90s-00s yeah it’s not new but I like the way they are challenging what everyone else is doing - thats the way to get better 👍🏻 Enjoyed the reasoning and response here makes sense to me 👍🏻
Thanks for a comprehensive video to provide an engineering point of view on a topic being debated around the RC community of late.
Makes a lot of sense! The internal spring idea gets me, as it's the same as what we refer to as a Top Out Spring in the front forks of road racing motorcycles. The purpose is the same, and it's an area where control of the travel of the front end above 1g has a significant influence on the way the bike steers under acceleration. The way they transfer load during the pitch motion under acceleration is not dissimilar to a 2WD Buggy. Oh, and welcome to the grumpy old man club! Ha ha!
I'll flip my shocks when Mayfield does.
Mayfield who? We just had 2 your top guys race this weekend broc and cav in England. Cav didn’t even make the A. But the hall brothers did 😅
@@adambreese7076 Lets see how the Hall brothers make out at the 1/10 worlds this year with Mayfield. Will be interesting.
@@adambreese7076 cav gives no fucks about racing as long as he gets a paycheck also probably couldnt find any of that white powder substance
It's Maifield you twats.
@@Haulinbassracing the f**k is that supposed to mean?
What you're saying about rebound just nails it. Thank you!
it was experimented back in the late 80s with paragon jump jet shocks. no benefit just dirtier shocks that had to get rebuilt more often as dirt ingressed easier. Granted tracks were rougher then. -U10
Thanks for a good video, tried it on a classic RC18 back in the days, and it was terrible 😂. Rather run them as they are designed to be used, and then adjust them for the surface i run on. 🤗
i designed the inspire4 and JQ 100% correct on this 1
Thought I'd add - shocks on Tamiya Sandscorcher were run upside down to stop them from leaking!! 🤣
😂
As we did for the mardave meteor.
Hello JQ! I totally agree with everything you have said, the unsprung mass is in no way positive, and I totally agree that suspensions for radio control cars are very primitive on a technical level. I liked your new springs for shock absorbers, but in the hydraulic part I think that there is still much room for technological improvement.
1:05 - Fuckin' CLASSIC!!!
😂 golden! 😂😂
soon it will be VINTAGE
hi it's nice to see you back. I like too much your video and your explanation ;-)
I thought they only used those shocks in Australia.
I remember when the way we run our shocks now was considered upside down! 😂
Just look at old motocross bikes - now they all run with the way we do now with our cars since the mid 80's.
JQ is bang on with his comments about unsprung weight - there's never a time when increasing it would be desirable.
Progressive rate springs are a great idea - I used to run these on my 10th and 8th scale buggies. MIP used to sell them. They're great when you have a difficult track with a combination of bumpy, mixed traction and high jumps where finding what works for one section compromises the other.
Putting springs or rubber fuel tubing under the piston used to prevent full droop from smashing the pistons off. Now of course we use droop screws. Full size off road buggies use tethers.
Clearly the Hall brothers have great thumbs, but their interpretation of what their car adjustments is doing isn't quite what they think.
Someone with the wherewithal to setup their buggies without putting the shocks 'the incorrect' way round will gain an advantage for them - by not increasing the unsprung weight.
Great video. Not an easy subject and even harder when the content challenges information put out by respected, sponsored international drivers. 👍
on motorcycles its done to minimize the flex in the front fork to have the fat and stabile part up on the fork and the thinner more flexing part down where it cant fles as mutch as a regular fork does.
check out dyno runs with different forks and the flex is apparent with upp or down forks
its all about the weight sonny, less weight on the part that is actually moving = more responsive suspension, easy as that
dyno runs? kiddo please stop trolling@@extec101
@@ohhi5237 im not trolling we are speaking of the same thing in different ways, ok you talk about unsprung mass and im about flex in the forks.
we are still talking about the properties of performance of a fork.
You forgot to mention never to put upside down the shocks outdoors and specific off road.The shock body will be damaged.Especially the threads will be in bad condition.Everything else...just GREAT!!!🤗🙂👍
We used internal springs under the piston back in the 90's in our xx-4's
Yes we did but I didn't know why back then🤔.
Most important, The new camera angle...on point!
We missed you Jq !!!!
Best channel for information by far!!! Thank you!!
Wow I've never been made to think so deeply about suspension before lol awesome stuff 👏
wow JQ I watched your how your old video... TOP 5 WAYS To Be A FASTER RACER For NO MONEY - $0 and guess what i am now in A finals at my local club and now breaking into the Top 20 and another club :) although we do have 80 drivers and its TC racing :) loving your rants you speak so much sense, not like the BS out there
That is awesome!
Very interesting I've seen few times shocks up side down on people's rigs ND wen I ask why the answer was always the shocks suck ND just piz fluid out of the seals being backwards helps I guess they say never new people did it for performance gain very interesting
I race on astro turf, was very impressed with the increased stability of the inverted springs, am interested to try the MIP pistons and under shock springs, seem like a great idea.
I used to use fuel tubing under the pistons on my xxxnt, about 1/8"- 1/4", made the truck feel more precise on smooth outdoor dirt tracks.
@@theclubhouse1209 that is just to limit droop not slow it down.
@@extec101 Where did i mention to slow it down?
I raced in the 90s primarily. Off-road and then through the beginning and growth of electric touring. I have done all of these things described in this video. I can say that piston valves and internal springs were not available products back then. I entirely agree with everything JQ has advocated. For a moment there I thought he wasn't going to mention internal springs. They were the most difficult to achieve in balance with the suspension spring as one would significantly affect the other. However, indoors on carpet it would make a touring car like a magic carpet ride, so easy and predictable to drive, forgiving of variations in throttle and brake input. However, it was not beneficial in all circumstances and did little to nothing for the car outdoors on the tarmac circuits, indeed it proved detrimental where there were bumps and kerbs in the mix.
Love your videos JQ!! I was so excited to see a new video from you today!! I was curious about what you thought about this video! Have a great day JQ
Love your work JQ.
I can say on the B6.4 it dose improve the cornering massively, a few people that run a 6.4 tried my car out and said the same thing. That being said I honestly think it works so well with a 6.4 because of it's design. Granted I am fairly new to the hobby and I have been struggling to make my 6.4 corner like I want and ha e tried everything from shock oil, springs, pistons, and limiters. And none of it made the buggie corner like I wanted tell I flipped the rear shocks. Like I said though I am still fairly new to hobby and still learning but this did solve my cornering issue.
Why dont you watch my video then
if it works better, doesnt it meat your car actually was badly designed eh sorry mate
Great video and I agreed with it all but then I also finished on a thought of no car has the weight of the shocks at the highest point of the vehicle like rc so maybe the benefits of lower cg do out weight more unsprung mass in their case. Never thought I’d say that but we will never know until someone actually does back to back testing on all set ups multiple times for a good average. Great content from you both
We will know when the Hall Brother's respond.
You can totally adjust flip if you buy an Agama N1 and make your own shock towers and arm levers. 🙃
I learn so much here, i should just buy the damn book. 😄
You should buy the damn course!!!
Why not both
@@LawrenceTimme even better
great vid once again from the Goat of rc knowledge
A tip I got from an xray mini truggy driver for running short springs on carpet is to heat shrink the spring bottoms to the cups.
It doesnt solve the problem of zero spring force in droop
@@invisiblespeedrc im thinking it is a differance in how the shock works, im no expert but for example the rear shock on a motocross is like ours on rc cars with the body upp and shock shaft down but under nitrogen preassure while the shocks on real cars is up side down compared to rc cars.
havent figured out how this makes the shocks work differently by physics or if its just design that a real car got the shocks in a way that makes them not wonerable to weather and tear by the road as i seen lots if not all of off road cars like trophy trucks, king of hammers etc using shocks in a position as rc cars.
@@invisiblespeedrc Why is zero spring force a problem but minimal spring force with two stage springs isn't? I suppose you could heat shrink the tops too as a poor man's droop screw, but it might not hold up long.
@@extec101 Many cars had shocks that are actual structural to the suspension, the shock is the upper arm basically. MacPhereson strut is what it is called, and is done for economical reasons, not performance. It also may look like they are "upside down" but usually I think the oil is still up top, its just that the shock shaft is inside a bigger tube, because like I said, the shock is actually a structural part of the suspension, it needs to be more rigid.
Production road cars often have twin tube dampers where one is inside the other and the oil doesn't go through the piston, instead it is pushed and pulled through a valve into and back from the outer tube which is gas pressurised. The ly usually have the oil reservoir attached to the lower arm as JQ described for strength and rigidity. Competition shocks for the same cars ie coilovers are often monoshocks like RC cars and usually reverse the layout where the oil body is sprung weight, again like our models.
The only manufacturer that makes tenth scale progressive rate springs is Traxxas. I bought them because I have them on my full sized track car!
Your analysis of the mechanics of this subject is very similar to my own conclusions, so I am glad to see some confirmation.
im sure its more then just trx that got progressive springs... xray got some in their asorment of springs.
im sure its more manufacturer out there that also got springs.
i tried explaining this exact thing when some of our locals started doing this like 1.5-2 years ago. they act like they just discovered fire. its not new, guys were doing this in the 90s on carpet tracks.
I guess I’m on the right path for suspension tuning
Great video sir. Always learn something/shitload from your content.
Course continues on Monday! 😎 courses.invisiblespeed.net/invisible-speed-full-course
In off-road racing at true scale buggies are tuned to hang the inside wheel through corners on purpose usually. They can rotate through the corner and accelerate out faster and they have more grip. So I’m not so sure that was necessarily a bad thing on that part.
Would love to see the same course for 1/10th scale off-road 2wd!!!!
It all works for that too, just havent made videos specific to that class yet
Adam drake had MIP Brass pistons before his adjustable rebound ones. Brass being heavy seemed strange to me... probably why didn't last.
Thank you
Great Vid JQ !!
The shocks don't act on the vehicle they control and influence the suspension arms travel.
People think that you are using dampers to control the whole chassis when in fact they should actually be individually working to keep the tires on the surface as much as possible.
Adding a shock body to a pivoting suspension arm will increase the arm load weight, keeping the arms swinging weight low would allow the spring to respond quicker and try to rebound sooner.
Extra weight (inverted shock)would cause more floating due to the spring having to fight more weight.
@Sauli Luolajan-Mikkola when you say the chassis is not static that is incorrect. Really the only change you could make to one specific chassis would be weight.
Technically the chassis is a non movable object nothing about it changes during operation. Now the motor does provide power to move the chassis dynamically through the environment, reactive forces outside of stationary are present on the model like inertia, centrifugal, gyroscopic, impactful still nothing about the chassis is designed to change to cope with those forces other than the suspension.
The shocks and springs are not pushing your car up your car is, let's say...continuously in a state of free fall. When the tire encounters a rock or bump the vehicle inertia, momentum is on a straight path the suspension travel would allow the tire (in a perfect setup) to follow the terrain while transmitting the least amount of unwanted force into the static chassis.
When people adjust their suspension to compensate for weight of a battery by pre loading the springs or moving the shock to different holes on the tower or arm they aren't really looking for the best handling. They are limiting suspension travel or making the suspension so rigid it almost becomes part of the chassis and typically they don't podium.
Well now it's great that your frog won't bump its ass when it hops the vehicle may be stiff in the rear and want to oversteer and you may lose control at high speed over choppy terrain. It will cause bad attitude when leaving jumps and wheel hop on the landing.
When I took suspension classes for my career it put suspension operation in a different perspective. Suspension starts from the ground up not top down.
If you watch any Baja 1000 footage of those cars going over terrain at 100plus MPH you get an idea of what suspension is really about. The chassis is so smooth you could almost have a hot cup of coffee in your lap.
ANOTHER AWESOME VIDEO FROM JQQQQQQQ! Thanks again as always. Hopefully we have good weather and try some of these. it seems like you just cannot drive enough to get adequate feedack. How much to rent your services for a few hours in the US?😁😁
Buy my course. Thats what its for
Actually love you JQ. Those little shits are also catching me up now.
ive seen inverted shocks for 10+ years. this is not new. youre right about the unsprung weight.
upside down forks are around for at least 50 years by now
Also they're removing sprung weight so the springs are "stiffer"...
Where do you get the washers for rebound damping and springs for 1/10? Specifically AE B6/B7. Because I searched MIP and they only have it for 1/8 I believe. So your challenge is going to be hard to do if you can't find the parts! Well unless I guess someone makes them themselves.
I agree with you JQ. It would be interesting to try heavier arms for indoor carpet. Heavier arms should provide similar effect to inverted shocks.
but alu hubs do make the same thing as its increse the unsprung weight.
Do you think this has an effect on what in full size would be high speed bump setting. If they are emulsion shocks then the volume compensation air can be compressed at high speed to give some high speed bump. Turn the over and that volume is in effect the other side of the piston so you don't get to compress it at high speed as your pushing against all oil????
the air is mixed with all the oil in the shock on an emulssion shock.
just take one that you can hear a slight sound of air in and work it back and fort a couple of times and the sound disappere as the air is solved in to the oil.
Great video.
Stadium trucks are basically the same a buggies except higher unsprung weight from bigger wheels and tires. They seem to run fine. Just flip the shocks and use lighter oil if you want faster movement.
No you are not understanding. You are wrong
Now everyone has homework to do. Everyone go and build a Tamiya TA06 chassis with inboard suspension which solves both problems of unsprung weight and lower COG
So mip piston and small spring inside shock, and progressive springs. There it is perfect shock package
Yeah but where do you find that for 1/10?
great intro to vid
Any chance you could do a video about things that are rarely seen in 1:8 buggies? Things like chain and belt drives, pull and pushrod suspensions, third spring in the rear (see crono svm), carbon chassis (really stiff chassis) and so forth. I think it would be an interesting video for wider audience especially because to untrained eye all the buggies look really similar, So it would be intersting to hear why nobody does those things.
Because they suck. There, no need for a video. Maybe instead could make a video about the differences between the cars.
@@invisiblespeedrc Well it would be interesting to hear what was the problem some of them were trying to fix and why they suck at fixing it. I was just listing some examples, I'm sure you know some better or crazier ones.
I just left the track, and was testing my buggy (LD2) w/ the frt/Rear shocks upside dwn. Much flatter! However, any kind of bumps the buggy was unsetteled! Flat landing not good at all.
You'd have better results using smaller shocks and moving them in to increase the motion ratio then use stiffer sway bars than fliping shocks upside down.
NEAT
Where can I find some of the rebound dampening springs. I'd like to give those a try
6mik
I had that idea a long time ago. Do you want to know the next step?
Something that wasn’t touched on, in either video, is that the shocks are emulsion. In a bumpy environment, the emulsification happens fast and maintains. On a smooth surface, I feel like the air could settle to the “top”, then allow uncontrolled (or at least inconsistent) damping around full droop. Landing a jump for example, the initial touch down would have little to no damping. Same could happen when transitioning from full throttle to enter a turn. An abrupt change in height.
The air doesnt separate from the oil that quickly, and I would think it would end up in the top of the shock (so bottom when upside down)
@Sauli Luolajan-Mikkola what magic would see the air settle in a different end (up vs down) just based on which way round the shock is?
@Sauli Luolajan-Mikkola That's how emulsion works. They air is mixed into the oil, it doesnt change depending on which way the shock is. It's exactly the same. Open your shock after running and look. The air is mixed into the oil evenly. The direction of the shock makes no difference to that.
@Sauli Luolajan-Mikkola no, because as I said, the air bubbles mix into the oil. We are driving the car, not looking at it in the pits. It is irrelevant how it feels on the pit table after it has been stationary long enough for air to settle.
That's why if you move an emulsion shock, it will feel different first, with an air pocket, but after you move it a few times in an out, it feels smooth in all positions.
@Sauli Luolajan-Mikkola look at airbubbles in oil when you build a shock. They arent exactly moving fast
Turning a regular shock upside does nothing but upset the hydro dynamic effect
Aren’t Assiciated springs on the soft side too?
So true inverted shocks are not a new thing I remember when motorcycles did this and it stuck but it never did in rc. It does make a lower center of gravity but not a change in weight transfer
on motorcycles its done to minimize the flex in the front fork to have the fat and stabile part up on the forl and the thinner more flexing part down where it cant fles as mutch as a regular fork does.
check out dyno runs with different forks and the flex is apparent with upp or down forks.
Why run 13mm shocks if it affects the cg negatively should go back to a 10mm shock and i agree with jq on the rebound
IMO cars are too fast for the bumpy tracks to be running 10mm bodies now, they would be far too lively and undriveable.
What would the RC hobby be like without old-timers always complaining about something? It would be boring. Bring on the complaints, sir! lol
1999??
1989 man.
Blk foot, and fast traxx
Based on what I was able to hear from your video what I'm understanding is a word that I didn't hear in any of the videos from either you or from associated with the word centrifical which can be applied to side to side or up or down wouldn't really matter but they're actually are formulas for that but you need to get in touch with the high-tech race teams from F1 and perhaps even Daytona but nevertheless they're actually are formulas for this in the way you set up a car but yes I absolutely agree with how you do your videos and I thank you very much for hearing that keep up the good work.
I dont know how using that word would change anything about the video
Anything in motion has a practical application or affect which makes it act the way it does the only thing that I was actually saying is in the centrifugal situation is that there are in fact formulas for how that can be decided as to the actual effect and how it can be produced to be better going
@@georgerhone4106 we arent doing any calculations here so we don’t need any formula.
Good to know thanks for the information
It seems that both have just miss our the influence of the membrane inside the shock, that in the "normal" position provides less dumping precision then in the inverted position were there are no membrane direct influence.
So in other word the menbrane influence the hidraulic shock natural worck in the diferent sides of the shocks and provide a small dual stage streng spring,
Another exercise to be tested is to use harder mambrane or put inside the membrane one hard sponge to provide less membrane efect and more overhall suspension precision, even with the exact density of the silicone oil.
🧐
Emulsion shocks upside down would be air pumps would they not. The seals being up where they could be dry theres more chance to suck in air the shaft would essentially by like a push/pull pump like what is down hole in an oil well
no they would work the same
@@invisiblespeedrc thanks for replying im just throwing out ideas cause im an idiot as you are aware haha
Question will it work for 10 scale touring cars
Yes but on a much smaller scale like usual. At the end of the day, just run them normal.
Traxxas slash springs?
finally
Or better yet on-road cars
JQ looks challenged enough😁
20mins to say “I call bullshit” 😂
Better watch the video
Oh I did - I’m just being a smart ass :)
I hope they take up the challenge. I’m thinking VRP might make pistons that can be installed “in reverse” and could be an option.
The first time I saw inverted shocks was on an RC10 back in the 80's. Along with some bullshit reason as to why it was better. Everyone was an engineer back in those days.
11:47 the b6.4 and the 74.2 ARENT meant to be raced on carpet??? because associated would disagree with you
"The RC10B74.2 and RC10B74.2D introduce molded gearboxes front and rear, which lower the center of gravity by removing weight from high points of the car. We modified the differentials to improve rolling speed through turns and increase stability on landings, allowing the buggy to corner faster on high-grip carpet and clay tracks."
and this next one is from the 6.4 page
"engineers had the goals of improving jumping and landing, updating the steering feel to be "easy to drive fast," and making the buggy corner faster on high-grip carpet and clay.
They are not designed for carpet, they are lazy conversions from dirt cars
If you wanted the car to move less wouldn’t you just use thicker shock oil? I’m just curious don’t flame me😅
sounds to me like you would be better off running plastic shock bodies and just tuning them better.
RC placebo. I’ve done this back in the early 90’ because I thought it looked cool and I figured it would help prevent my shocks from leaking. Made no difference in performance
From back in the day (late 80's, early 90's) this was done mainly to stop shocks leaking.
Your spring explanation is incorrect. The rate of the spring is the same in each direction, a softer spring moves more compression and extension than a stiffer spring, remember that to have the same ride height with a softer spring you have to increase preload!
I dont know if you are responding to me or a comment. With a short hard spring you can set rideheight with almost no preload. Meaning that the spring does nothing above rideheight. Then you have a very soft spring, or soft portion of the spring holding it in place for droop. With a soft spring, you have to have a lot of preload to set rideheight, and the spring force above rideheight will be higher than in the previous example.
@@invisiblespeedrc I'm responding to you, I got the impression that you inferred that a softer spring has less stored energy in extension above ride height. My example was for the same ride height so same stored energy in the springs being stiff or soft. Progressive springs are another beast, they're in series when the car is above ride height and single when the soft is compressed, therefore they have more displacement going extension than compression. I think we're on the same page, just the case that rc spring sets are most commonly the same free length across all springs in the set which to me is not ideal. Then there's also the case of the soft portion not being soft enough, as you said it has to be removed from working as soon before ride height as possible.
@@HephaestusRC no I said stiffer and shorter spring. So that spring would not be active above rideheight to full droop as they are now.
@@invisiblespeedrc that's right we're on the same page. Thanks for the conversation.
You trying to ruin this guys placebo effect? Damn man, let people live 😂
You know you’re being very adult here on this.😂 (fad) these are kids just moving shit around. Like you said do the homework and try to figure out a true complexity of a set up and how the geometry of the suspension can change the way it drives. Hardest thing I ever had to learn was how to set up a on road car. And learn the geometry of the suspension.
Well at least you shower.
Don't see the point in indoor "off road" carpet racing. Might as well get a touring car.
I agree
Most don't until you try it.
If you haven't tried it then probably you shouldn't say anything about it.
I have tried it, and TC is a lot better on carpet
In the middle of a Canadian winter: you're lucky to get 'offroad' anything. It's carpet or rarely clay. And I'd prefer not to give up the satisfaction of getting a series of jumps just-right.
Contact me I will make your next car blow your mind
Omg he’s triggered again ;)
He's right though to be fair. 👍
I think 'reducing' centre of gravity that the Hall brothers refer to really means 'lowering' the centre of gravity.
I'm confident that flipping the shocks upside down will only minimally lower the CoG. If you take the percentage of the shocks vs the rest of the car, it's a tiny percentage, and the heaviest stuff like the battery and motor are already slung low in the chassis.
On the other hand, if you compare the unsprung weight at each corner, and factor in the weight of the shock body after you turn the shocks upside down, this is a much higher percentage increase and is much more significant than the change to the CoG.
Meh.
It’s a trend in uk for indoor setup that’s been happening over this winter. On b6.4 . Your voice is so boring.
Not as boring as your life though
Man is trying to bless you with information and you insult him? STFU and learn something.
He speaks slow and clear so you can follow. This is a good thing.
I have a question for you.
I was out running my Traxxas Revo 3.3 yesterday. While running the fuel line came off the pressure nipple on my exhaust. For some reason the truck runs way faster, it's a significant difference without the back pressure. It's like night and day. It even sounds different. I'm assuming it's because it is leaning out the engine? I always assumed the engine would cut off due to lack of tank pressure, but it doesn't. I had ran a full tank before I figured it out. I thought "damn I'm getting good at tuning this thing it's like a rocket!" Nope, probably just almost blew it up. How bad is that for the motor?
Depending on how lean the tune was before it lost the pressure line. It could be very bad if it was run for long periods and already lean. Although if your original tune was good and it was only one tank it should be fine.
I was on the doorstep of buying an LDV van but after being informed that the warranty process is a nightmare.. that its got a lot of pages that if any mistakes are made even if it was a wrong number like 1234 when it was meant to be 1243...
Other reasons for not buying was the lack of safety tech.. 360 camera, lane assist to know another car is next to you or in the blind spot... Also no direct LDV factory options for side windows...
I ended up with a Hyundai Staria load... Which i had side windows installed as well as windows for the sliding doors..