Should I Fire My Top Team Member
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- Опубліковано 8 тра 2024
- Should I Fire My Top Team Member
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I once had a team leader that just criticized everyone in the building. I wasn’t going to deal with this phony anymore so I found a better job and I turned in my resignation to the top mgr. the first line out of his mouth was, is it because of the your team leader? I said yep and if I were you I would make some changes before more good ppl leave.
"Its time to end a relationship or a job when there's no hope it's going to get better". That is soooo true. In this case this lady won't improve because she thinks she's untouchable, it's a common trait for a salesman.
Do you want her selling and generating revenue, or, would you prefer she do paperwork. Maybe, instead of firing her, you rethink the paperwork and who else could do it, like an assistant. The question becomes: is she just doing a little more selling or is she generating twice, thrice the revenue (or more) then every one else?
Be careful not to cut off your nose because the air smells bad.
Saying "she's average" and then saying "she's the best they have had in that position" is stating the other team members are BELOW average, yet, he's going to fire her! Entrepreneurs can be their own worst enemy.
I have seen owner get resentful of top earners. And nearly ruin a business
Then everyone should have an assistant to do the mundane aspects of their job.
@@VictoriaRow Only if you can produce the revenue to justify it. Mediocrity doesn't deserve it. Life isn't fair, you are not entitled to what you don't earn.
I came here to say the same thing because I listened to another caller recently where it was a male salesperson that had the same issue. Great on the front end but hated the the follow-up and paperwork. Was to redistribute the roles for the team, or hire somebody to do the paperwork so the salesperson could do what they do best.
When I was younger I worked at a place with a coworker that kept a really messy scattered desk. I was on good terms with the manager and asked about it. Not in a bad way, just curious because all others kept things very orderly.
The manager told me that he’s the top earner and the best closer in the company. He puts up with the mess because things get done. Also, he said that his system seems to work for him, so why would he try to change him.
The caller has his sales structure wrong if he thinks that excellent sales people will always be interested in paperwork or computer work - or have the ability to even do so. Many on my team have adult ADHD and need assistance with this but they are excellent with clients. Usually great office acumen and sales talents don’t go together in one person - that is usually two different personality types.
Exactly. The real question is, how good of a sales agent is she? For example, if she so good that the amount she is above average would cover the cost of hiring her an assistant? If the average sales rep is bringing in $100k, but she's bringing in $200k, then that's plenty of margin to justify hiring someone to help her with her paperwork. If any of the sales reps complain, you can tell them, "when you sell enough to pay for an assistant, you can have one too."
This is just specialization of labor, AKA the thing that got us past the stage of getting all our food in the woods. If someone is a god-tier sales rep, why are you wasting their time with paperwork? Hire them a personal assistant/secretary/admin assistant, whatever you want to call it. The sales rep goes and makes the deals, then they hand it off to their assistant to fill out the paperwork. There's a reason doctors don't do all the paperwork themselves; their time is better spent working with patients.
Yes! As an adult adhd engineer. There are some things I'm amazing at and other's I'm not. I do write a ton of tutorials, so I do things according to the standard. It sounds like she may need a mentor or tutorials or an admin. Sometimes it only takes a small tweak to make a huge difference. There may also be a much better way for the company to document things that would save everyone time and headaches, so she may have great ideas since it's her weakness and what would make it easier for everyone.
Agree. If she's really that good, hire an intern to handle her paperwork.
Exactly
When most companies put you on a Performance Improvement Plan (PIP), you need to get your resume in order and start looking for a new job because that company is likely going to fire you anyway. The PIP is typically just a way for the company to cover themselves legally. They've likely already made up their mind to fire you and it's already too late.
That’s what I’ve heard too
It's the sign they want to move more jobs out of the country. Up goals, then when most fail, fire them and hire double the people in India who do less quality.
This is not true at all. The point of a PIP is for improvement; to level set expectation and establish what needs to change. This also sets a paper trail in case the behaviors do not stop so that further documentation can continue which may result in a termination.
I have plenty of great Team Members on PIPs, they are not gone because they correct the behavior.
Yes it’s true if a company wants you gone a PIP is the 1st step but a PIP on its own is not a sign of that.
@@Stanginsean281are there usually talks or reviews before it gets to the point of PIP?
It depends on the company, and the landscape is changing since businesses are starting to realize that PIPs do not actually provide legal benefits but do end up bringing on many undesirable side effects like reduced morale, distrust of management, and potential additional legal liability.
I think the fashion is changing to instead just giving a few months severance and Dave everyone the headache, along with a liability release or whatever it is called.
Wait a minute, how much does she produce out of that $5 million in revenue? What exactly are the procedures in the sale cycle is she not doing? …seriously Dave, you want her to be fired without asking these simple questions? Maybe his procedures need to be changed? In this day and age with a small business why would you get rid of the best producer in your company without entertaining ALL the facts?!
I'm a career salesperson. I despise peers like that problem employee. The reason why people like that sell more than others is they don't do the tedious ' busy work ' , focus only on sales but create excessive work for others.
NAILED IT! I've had colleagues like this, they achieve great results precisely because they let other stuff slide. Later on it's 10x harder for her or others to redo the missing paperwork due to time passing or others not having been part of her sales negotiations. Creates huge delays for everyone but on paper, sure she's the star. Bingo.
If you sell better you should just sell, not do paperwork. Morons that can't sell can do paperwork.
@@jurisveipe4341 The requirement is to sell AND do the paperwork. "Morons" that can't do both can leave.
@@dennischiapello7243 exactly! That's why he said she's a star in sales but all duties combined her results are merely average. Plus she's resistant to coaching, simply does her own thing and doesn't care what her duties are. Flakers gonna flake, best if they did so somewhere else cos good people will start leaving due to this crap.
@@dennischiapello7243 that’s a stupid requirement. Get a funky to do the paperwork and let good salesmen do what they do best. Whoever put these rules in place is a moron.
Good sales people will die doing the paperwork. Stop asking them to do it. That's clerical work. Hire a heavy S to do that stuff for them
It's like making the top car salesman spend his time detailing the car after it gets sold, rather than selling 5 more cars.
There is something missing in this call. Why would the caller mention that this feels like a "brash" decision when any logical objective assessment clearly indicates a patient, methodical process? Unless .... it wasn't, and the caller knows it and wants to feel good about a bad decision he is about to make.
I suspect that during these feedback and performance meetings leadership wasn't clear or serious about the consequences for a lack of progress. I'm willing to bet, like much of leadership today they paint a rosy picture and "minor" issues to tweak in a performance review. And now this top performer is going to get blindsided and the company is going to suffer.
Could be but not in this case. He said she's made an effort for a while but then went back to her usual slacking self. Would've been good if more details on her deficiencies were provided, I agree.
@kokoskokso the best that we had so far, but she's average 😂the best at generation money 💰 they can't find someone better but she's avrage. I left a job like this . They had to hire 3 people and a manager to replace me . I own my own company today . Owners can really get delusional to people's value
"She's the best recruiter so far....the clients love her"
You need to think outside the box. Tell her you've done everything to get her straight on paperwork, but she's valued, and get her an assistant. And the the assistant's pay should be tied to the extra revenue she brings in. Seems like if someone takes care of her paperwork, she might be able to pull in even more revenue for the company.
Option B...you fire her, she starts her own company and hires an assistant.
She generates the most income and the clients love her. So by all means fire her so she can go out on her own...taking your clients with her.
No she’s average, as he said
@@nonons3ns340 No, that’s not what he said. This employer generates more revenue than anyone else.
@@nonons3ns340 That's not what he said. He said she was the best "recruiter", but because she is bad at paperwork she is just average. AND THEN he said, "she was the best they had so far" in that position. There is a disconnect here. She's the best they have had, yet, he wants to fire her and not the others. Something is off here and I am surprised Dave didn't pick up on that. The production of others is and was poorer before her, so it is not going to change when she is gone.
@@USMC6976 "She's been the best recruiter we've had so far at this position....the clients love her....she's fully engaged." 2 out of 3 ain't bad, especially when it's the 2 that make you money. She makes them money and makes the clients happy. So there is no need to beat a dead horse in terms of trying to train her on paperwork, but the numbers probably support trying other alternatives. For example, use some of the additional revenue she generates to get someone to assist her with the paperwork. Alternatively, hire someone to help with everyone's paperwork. Hell you can probably hire some college kid for 3 hours a day to do her paperwork. And it's a financial decision, not preferential treatment. She makes more money than others. Do you divorce your spouse with a good paying job because they aren't good with laundry or can't fix a car? No you hire someone to do that work.
@@nonons3ns340 that’s what I found confusing about this call. The first comments were the caller’s company was bringing in a revenue number Dave thought sounded good (Im not good at remembering numbers), this lady was the top recruiter, then the caller said her recruiting skills were average. Somethings not adding up.
Man this is a tough call. Im a a structural engineer and i am in a situation where i was upfront with a manager that i needed about an extra week to finish a delieverable that was moved up a whole month.i have a crazy work load. He just told me they need it when they need it. And right there i thought i need to update my resume. I didnt make the requested date and got it out 2 days after the requested date. And the guy is going to my manager. Im just tryong to stay positive while i look for a new job. So i dont have a bad attitude as the caller is saying his top performer has. But sometimes the "bosses" just suck. Im currently gonna find another job opportunity
Yep, everything has to assume the boss has made the right observations: the team member is messing up, they're replaceable, it can't be fixed another way, the team is resentful. Sometimes it's all just projections and false conclusions on the part of the boss. The work load was too high, the employee is not replaceable, the shortcomings are easily fixable i.e hiring an assistant, and the team is only resentful because they're agreeing with what their boss is telling them.
Can absolutely relate with both bad bosses or coworkers as a fellow engineer.
@@gorkyd7912 Yes, and bosses often feel threatened by good employees BECAUSE they are good. They often have a good overview of the business. They see where processes are failing and where bosses are failing. Because they want to help the business they speak up about it, and that is often percieved as toxic.
It would be best if their insights could be used to the advantage of the business, but sadly they rarely are.
@@gorkyd7912 The boss never should have agreed to move the deadline up without consulting the team doing that actual work.
This is completely different with your situation! This woman is not coachable! She is not over worked!
I hope I don't get my head chewed off after my statement. lol. I have been in high-level sales and marketing for many years. It was challenging for me to go high energy and focus in one direction then switch to paperwork. The burnout was intense. I wasn't able to do both. It became a concern for all involved and unbearable to continue, I gave my resignation with tearful defeat. My Boss didn't want to lose me, for I was bringing so much to the department, that none could match my skills. My Boss went to a higher authority and got approval to hire an Assistant for me to do all the paperwork. In turn, I gave more to the prime directive and my sales % increased. I'm not saying all should do the same. But I will say, pick your battles wisely. Creating greatness within another isn't always following the same pattern as others. Sometimes it's building a new path that no one has ever endeavored to create an empire. 🤓 Retired employee of INTEL
Maybe. Intel is very different from a tiny small company. At that scale, you can't just hire someone else to do the job you hired someone else to do. Everyone has to wear multiple hats. In fact, it's one of the best parts of working for a small company.
Perhaps that employee is better suited for a big company that can afford to have super specialized employees with shared resources to take care of the grunt work.
@@justhecuke Like I said, not all should do the same. I was only sharing my personal experience working a 70 hour or more week. I also wanted to add the Assistant that you stated "doing my grunt work", received a ton of experience and eventually moved into a higher position. Small Companies are great, until they want to become bigger and their employees are unable to sustain the higher demand.
You have a point. Sometimes sales people are phenomenal at sales but trash at everything else. If a sales employee is making $1 million in sales and the paperwork is slowing her down, I'm looking at finding someone to do the paperwork.
Might even need a few extra employees to do the paperwork for the whole sales staff. Can't really tell without all the details, but how many high class chefs spend their time washing dishes? They often hire someone else to do that.
Also, if you are generating double the leads/sales of someone else, wouldn't you have double the paperwork. Maybe she's too good at sales that it makes her paperwork look bad.
People don't realize how valuable a great salesman is.
@@Ka_Gg I couldn't have said it better. :)
@@justhecuketiny small company. They have 7 employees doing 5.2 million annually 🙄 they need 2 admin. That costs 40-50k annually per person. Please and it would sky rocket returns. They’re not a “tiny small” mom and pop.🙄
Dave might be right or the team members might be jealous because shes out performing them. If paperwork isn't her strong point get an admin assistant.
One person can ruin a team!
Fact!
That's right, the boss of that team!
My new supervisor… if you ain’t sucking his shit you ain’t on the team!
Bosses so often neglect to even consider the corroding effect of letting select people get away with stuff, on the backs of people working their butts off.
What they don't notice is the hard workers often leave precisely due to this crap, or let their results slide down to the sucker's level, because why bother.
Plus the morale, joy and pride of being with that company, all gone.
@@DonLicuala Ramsey is x times richer than any one of us for a reason. If the guy follows bad advice that's on him. As a boss he's the one making decisions and carrying responsibility for them. Ramsey's advice was good for the facts that were provided, I personally would like to have more specifics on her over- and underperformance.
It is likely the women has a focus on SALES instead of the KEY PERFORMANCE INDICATOR busywork you assign so that management can stare at their CRM dashboards and believe they add value. I say to the SALESperson being discussed here, get out and find a company oriented to sales instead of populating fields in CRM databases.
Yup, that's exactly what I heard. She does the job very well, but I don't care if she does the job, I care if she follows my made-up rules.
@@Ryan-zv6xwYep. Back to school🙄
I used to have a couple of toxic coworkers. Things are so much better since they're gone.
Mind if I ask how their toxicity manifested?
@@aorg9793doesn’t matter! Toxic people are not worth it! This is the workforce! Do your job!
We had one like that... always telling others how to do their job, never saying sorry, very fake... always trying to edit people and their topics of conversation . She quit abruptly and the mood immediately lifted.
@@williamj.dovejr.8613 One of them thought she was so valuable that my bosses would just put up with her BS. And they did. She thought it was her job to know what everyone else was doing, what time they came in, etc. The other just came in when she wanted, in her mind, never did anything wrong, but messed up quite often. When you approached her, she would insist she done it the same way as last year. Then you would have to remind her that last year it was wrong. These two examples show that toxic employees can be on one spectrum to the other.
same here, she quit and moved out of State thank god!!!
If she is that valuable to the company, you could consider hiring her an assistant to do all the paperwork/compliance and let her sell. But only if it wouldn't destroy the sales culture at the company.
You make a good point. Sometimes these kinds of problems show the need for a new position. Not always... she could just be slacking and doesn't care about the parts of her job that she's not doing well.
Sellers are seldom good at the details. That is where sales assistants come in. If you took this work off of her, how much more could she produce? Is it enough to pay for the sales assistant? If so hire one. When the others complain, off a sales assistant to them when they hit and maintain specific revenue targets. If she is simply average, as you said later in the call, then Dave’ advice is spot on.
Good idea. So tomorrow everybody wants an assistant.
Could hire a person to do all the paperwork for the sales dept.
Great idea but maybe take it a step further. She would have to foot the bill for the assistant and offer that to all employees so it doesn’t come across as favoring one person.
Great salespeople are often very bad at administrative task. The problem is most businesses can’t afford to have another person for administration that the sales person could simply do themselves (and has time to do.) A lot of times I see it’s better for a business to have someone who can sell even 75% as good BUT will do the admin task as well because at the end of the day your making the same if not more profit plus the others on the team like them more (increased company morale.) No one likes the great salesperson who makes their day harder.
What he did not say was if he had that serious conversation with her. What was her reason for not meeting expectations? Did her give her formal warnings? This sounds a bit weird to me….. something is off…. Also he was inconsistent in his description of her work performance.
Agreed
He literally had her on a PIP and said he’s warned her repeatedly. I think it’s dumb to fire somebody he described as a top revenue generator, but they explicitly answered the questions you raised in the first 90 seconds.
@@adamseidel9780 I disagree. But that’s ok. Enjoy!
Yea, she’s a “top performer” but she’s just “average” at her job? Strange.
@@lisadee1623 It is so obvious that this guy is a horrible employer, the problem is him, anyone can see that. If a person that works for you is bringing in a lot of business, more than your other employees, but she is not doing it "your way" so you fire her, that's ridiculous. Talk about the cart before the horse, filling out paperwork as per the boss's protocols is more important than actually doing the job well? What a country we live in. . .
It sounds like the employee in question is the "Top Dog" when it comes to earning. A different approach from firing her would be to hire an administrative assistant for her. I mean if she really is the BEST at generating revenue (which is the ultimate goal of this business), this owner should do some simple math and determine if the cost of hiring an administrative assistant to take care of all that documentation, follow-up, and whatever else might be considered by this Top Dog to be nickel-and-dime stuff, then it might be a good investment for this one employee to provide her with someone to manage all the things which are not directly generating revenue. Now if you do this, if you provide an assistant, you're going to get push-back from the other sales reps in the form of "Where's Mine?" Two ways to handle that. The easiest would be to tell them "Hey, you start bringing in the bucks she brings in every month and you can have an assistant too"; or, in the alternative, let this administrative assistant help everybody with their non-critical stuff with the understanding that first priority goes to the Top Dog.
The caller is characterizing the discontent among the other workers as being about their resenting that they have to do paperwork this employee doesn't have to do. But it's super likely they simply resent having to do unnecessary paperwork (if it were necessary, she'd likely be doing it). He's likely got a team that recognizes that the "boss" is putting unnecessary hurdles in their path, but he wants to make it about this woman not following his arbitrary rules that seem unconnected with the value she brings the company.
She knows she is in demand. She knows she has control. She doesn't care if you dump her, because she already has stuff lined-up.
You don't want to keep an arrogant diva anyway. But it would've been good if we had more information on what her issues were.
@@kokoskokso - precisely.
@@mattlaeff724 someone else commented she might be one of those "high achievers" that only succeed because they neglect their other duties like paperwork, which then creates huge amounts of stress for everyone else. Seems plausible. If you have 1-2 hours more each day cos you can't be bothered to deal with documentation, then of course your results doing sales or recruitment are going to be better than others who also do their follow-up.
@@kokoskokso She could be an arrogant diva, or she could be a woman who knows how to produce and that the made-up protocols of this daddy-bought-me-a-small-business-loan boss just get in the way. I'm hearing this guy say she is bringing in a great deal of earnings but she doesn't follow his rules about, for example, follow-up. What difference does it make to him? She's doing the job better than if she followed his rules, but following his rules matters more to him. That doesn't make her the diva.
I would tell her if she can't handle the requirements, get her an assistant to do it, and have this cost reflected in her salary.
This. Not everyone is good at all the jobs. Exploit their strengths and compensate their weaknesses.
Actually she might make even more since her time is freed up to pursue her strength.
100% yes.
@@nickpower-fj9buBut it takes a lot of time to do that…the caller has been patient already. At some point , she has to come up with a good plan if she really wants to stay.
@@DonLicuala because we can do it ourselves now by computer, without wasting time on the back-and-forth to correct errors the secretaries make. When my office put a computer on every desk, my secretary was shocked that I typed faster than she did.
Maybe the protocols are also part of he problem? Just because a business has them doesn’t mean they always work well to help the business run and sometimes they are even downright bad.
It's never easy. But, the harm to the company and team is worse than you know.
If your best employee is someone on PIP who can't follow instructions. I'm concerned what the rest of the team looks like lol
The thing is not everyone can be successful in every position. She would probably be great at just straight recruiting with no other responsibilities.
It isn't his responsibility to create that position for her.
It's not his responsibility, BUT maybe this is an opportunity to review what's actually happening with his sales team. #1 salesperson does the least amount of admin work/corporate tasks. The best attitude ones sell less but do the grunt work. I'd look at that like, would hiring 1 admin staff to take over all of the "non-sales" tasks for every sales person potentially boost the productivity and sales of every single recruiter. You might see a dramatic improvement in revenue from this move. 1 cheap admin might be the fix, but companies get too focused on "their processes" and fail to help people become the best version of themselves
Yeah... something is off here, dude isn't giving the whole story. You don't put your best employee on a PIP because they don't do enough documentation. Also he directively, conterdicts himself, she makes the most money and all the clients love her but overall she's just average at her job.
Many times sales folks are forced into doing 2 jobs, the sales job that is successful and the reporting administration. No longer enough to be the best salesperson, now your forecasts, pipeline, daily contacts, endless reports and waste of time meetings with leadership, all the documentation that kills sales time and drains sales energy.
Been there. From the time you first think it until you actually DO it is just procrastination.
I needed to hear this today. Thank you
I learned during my years in the workforce, that few supervisors see the value in all employees. I have worked many jobs over my lifetime and I left many jobs and one thing I came to find out was, they can and will always replace you. Whether you were the better employee, who knows, but if an employee is giving you grief go ahead and get rid of them with good documentation.
Bingo, just like Dave said, tough but it needs to be done for the better of the COMPANY!
Or worse, hope its the later lol.
Having worked in big company structure communicating between R&D, product development and sales I can assure everyone that 80% of the process established by management was a worthless waste of time. As Elon musk says: the best part is no part, the best process no process. Perhaps the best next step is to ask her “if you were in charge, what would you change to make everyone as productive as you?” I eventually hired several outstanding engineers but only after months of obstruction by Human Resources who had no concept of the work or how to assess the people who could do it. Fired, she might become a competitor with the best accounts following her.
Spot on. We get both "this woman brings a huge amount of money into my business" and "I need to fire her because she won't jump through arbitrary hoops". The obvious answer is the problem is the hoops, not the employee, and if he removed the hoops the other employees would likely be more productive, also. People get so attached to their made-up protocols.
If the team is done with her, then it may be best to give her the final ultimatum and let her go when she fails. However, if the best sales person you've ever had is having issues with your admin processes, then you may need to change your processes to best serve the sales team. Your processes can be hindering them. Maybe the other team members would also be selling more with less admin work as well. Especially if they are paid on commission, why would they want to do extra works for no pay. Hire a customer service admin that does the paperwork and follow up crap for the team.
Shes the best recruiter at generating revenue and your going to fire her?!?! Sound like shes a rock star!!
right?! I can't believe they wouldn't take the clerical work off her plate so she can focus on driving more revenue. The other sales people wasting their time doing perfect reporting... which is not revenue generating. Rare miss by dave imo
I loved how he says she is "average" but earns more money than anyone in the position? Problem is not doing paperwork correctly can be what causes you to get sued and lose costing you more money and putting company at risk, although you should be insured. She probably does need to go but how does she not see writing on the wall?
I'd guess he means average, in that she's great at the critical skill but bad at the secondary skill.
@@aorg9793 Could mean they've only had a few people in that position, she's the best they've had, but he's seen a lot better in other companies.
It only takes one bad manager or supervisor to cause a company to unionize
This guy is full of it. He goes from she the top performer to well she's just average.
That's how he convinces himself she won't be missed.
He'll be missing her in about three months. But hey when you fire you top sales person, no. two becomes the next top sales person right?
Yeah, what I heard there is that she is bringing in more than anyone else in the building, but he still considers that just average and expects her to do more (and therefore expects everyone else to do much more). This is a bad boss.
It is debatable that her leaving will increase the performance of the remaining team members. In fact her customers will follow her to her new employer because she is the value add in the relationship.
I had a co worker who constantly criticized the company and even fell asleep on the job, it was relief when she left, we were too busy resenting her to get work done.
Thinking that firing her would increase productivity is bad logic. Truth is that true “go-getters/Top dogs” would never let someone else’s performance get in their way of producing.
The reality is with your best employees you *do* play favorites. They get bigger raises, they get promotions, they make more money.
Yup
Same with a friendship that has a tragic flaw… there you go oh oh
As long as all of this has been DOCUMENTED, he should not have a problem getting rid of her. ALWAYS cover your butt with paper!
She's bringing in the most money. He is going to open a nother can of worms by getting rid of her .
Hire papers!
The best coaches build around their teams strenghts
There's way more to this than this clip is showing. It's not that simple for a small business to fire a top performer and it's really not easy to find and retain top talent in a position like that. If she's not a total bitch I'd consider having someone else to do the paperwork for her. When he said 'she's average but the best we've had'. The set off an alarm for me; he's probably not paying enough to get top talent in that position which is why she won't do all the paperwork in the first place.
Yes, something made me bristle when near the end he said, “she’s average”. But he said she was a top recruiter, is she a top recruiter or average? She can’t be both. And if his best employee is average, maybe his company is already a sinking ship
@@AngelaMastrodonato I think he said she's the best they've had but average compared to recruiters overall. This is why I concluded he's not paying very well which is why he can't easily replace her and probably why she won't do the paperwork. The fact that she improved but then reverted to her old ways tells me she's passive aggressively telling them she's not happy with her salary and they know it'll be hard to find someone as good as her to do it at their current salary level
Her job is to generate revenue which pays a commission, and she is the best at it. The discussion needs to be with management, however that never happens because management sets the culture, pays for consulting to tell them what they want to hear or recommend changes that require employee empowerment that will never (or halfhearted) be implemented.
Maybe she's overworked, and she doesn't have time for callbacks and paperwork.
I know a young woman who worked at a classy chain restaurant, she was the greeter and cashier, she was always friendly with the customers, and she earned the most tips, it was a tip jar on the counter and staff loved working on her shift, because the tips were divided evenly between all the staff during that shift. She also worked hard when there were no customers; swept the floors, took out the garbage, etc. Then, she got involved in a boyfriend who her friends warn her about because he was doing drugs, and she went downhill, didn't always show up on time at work, was very moody, etc. She was gently let go by the manager, or so she thought. Then, a few years later, after she dumped that boyfriend, and looked for work, she tried to apply to this chain restaurant again, she discovered she is on the 'do not hire again' list.
Australia has a three strike policy. Written interview with HR to discuss problem and expectations, possible solutions, and a review date for performance improvement. Second HR discussion about expectations not being met again, and set another review date. Third discussion is to review lack of progress and to terminate employment. This can be as short as 2 months.
What's the protocol? After she makes the sale she has to beg, plead and threaten to get the company to fill their part of the agreement, doesn't she?
That breath of fresh air? That's the old customers rushing out.
You get her a personal assistant. Take it out of her salary if you want. But it’s probably too late.
I heard dave heartless about firing ppl too
This is a business decision. You have to decide whether the problems you have with her way of working are serious enough to be worth losing your best revenue earner.
If the problems aren't preventing her making money for your business, you need to consider whether those procedures are actually needed. You say she isn't doing follow-ups. The purpose of a follow-up is to generate revenue. If she's generating a lot of revenue, then she's apparently doing the follow-ups she needs to. You need to make sure you aren't enforcing rules just for the sake of enforcing rules.
Documentation is a little different, since documentation doesn't bring in revenue now, but prevents problems in the future. You should look at whether the documentation you are asking her to do is actually necessary and, if it is, whether it can be made quicker and easier. You can also look at whether the documentation can be delegated to someone else.
Other employees not being happy with the rules not applying to her is easy to deal with. Either you figure out that the rules aren't needed and stop applying them to everyone else or you figure out that the rules aren't needed for her because she can get results doing things her own way and you tell the others that you'll cut them slack too if they start bringing in as much as she does.
Exactly. It's depressing to me that Ramsey just assumes that whatever paperwork this guy is talking about is necessary and appropriate, even though her *not* doing the paperwork apparently is not affecting the guy's bottom line at all. But pushing paper is now considered productivity in and of itself. Dig a hole, fill it up.
Protect your team.
Protect. Your. Team.
I think it depends on how work is actually going for her. Ive definitely have had a bad manager before that just didnt like me and made it her goal to tell the store owner about all these lies about me. I was the 2nd top sales person in the store, and you want to lie to the owner about me? I just decided to get a new job. I found a place that pays me more and it has NONE of the drama that this lady caused. Bad managers will lie and gossip about you if they dont like you. No matter how hard you try, you cant please them.
That's the vibe I got from the caller, she was great at her job but wouldn't do the made up sidework that he created for his people to make himself feel like the boss.
What's his percentage of temp to hire?
Bosses so often neglect to even consider the corroding effect of letting select people get away with stuff, on the backs of people working their butts off.
What they don't notice is the hard workers often leave precisely due to this crap, or let their results slide down to the sucker's level, because why bother.
Plus the morale, joy and pride of being with that company, all gone.
Just to please that one lazy person that's constantly sick on Mondays.
I have had to fire a handful of people so far in my 1 year management career. It’s never fun. It can be sad. However, when you fire the people like this guy is dealing with, the remainder of your team respects you and the business so much more because they know you care about the success of the business and everyone there that cares.
how about a non pay suspension 1st???
Hire 6 more like her if shes the best!!!
Almost sounds from what he said that it may be worth hiring someone to your team whose job is to take care of the paperwork items that this person is struggling with...they could do it for all members of the team, maybe free up time to allow them all to better engage with clients and generate more than enough extra business to justify the position.
is it will or skill???
Does she generate enough income to pay for an assistant? If it’s a numbers question this could be a possible solution
Make sure you have witness with you when you fire her or you could place yourself in a situation where she could later make false accusations of how and why she was let go.
She does the most important part of the job better than everyone. Is there really no way to adjust the process to make it less onerous?
A PIP is one thing but it’s not an actual disciplinary write up which should have happened along time ago and still be within reason and protocol. It doesn’t sound like he took that step. He was banking on her changing with the PIP and now she is out of hand because he waited too long to address her behavior.
Management looking for work arounds to avoid dealing with actual conflict only works part of the time. This is a pet peeve of mine. Management styles like this have meetings with entire teams to address behaviors that are only coming from one person to avoid dealing with the one person. If management won’t deal with it other team members will start leaving.
Something about this caller makes me not trust him.
The whole point of a PIP is to change your performance or you are out.
this flies in complete conflict with Lencioni's Working Genius framework IMO. this employee may just be doing work shes not suited for and needs to be placed in a different role or given responsibilities more in line with her strengths.
Why not have one of the recruiters just handle the follow up and documentation’s?
yeah i agree if she is great at recruiting then maybe hire someone to do the part she isn't doing giving her even more time to get recruiting done.
@@TheRealTommyBear33That might work, but are the other recruiters going to want someone to do their follow up and clerical work also?
If she's only able to do 75% of her job, why does another employee have to do 100% of his job and 25% of hers? Doesn't make sense, does it?
Good idea. Remodel the position of another recruiter and pay them a little more. Meanwhile, no more raises for her.
Exactly! Let people shine at what they do best and don't try to force a square peg into a round hole. Redefine her role and let her do what she does best.
This guy also mentioned that many people said he expects too much (or something along those terms). I think there is more to the story.
Is there another position where she could be successful? Maybe think about this as a situation where this is not a good fit for her. She has many positive assets, but the requirements of this position are not being met.
I’d want to understand if this is (1) lack of skill or knowledge that can be trained on; (2) lack of willingness which is an issue; (3) lack of bandwidth. My gut from caller suggests she is bringing real value to the company and perhaps the role has evolved and grown and she’s move business development and not having bandwidth or other capacity for the lower level stuff. I’d consider reviewing the overall team and the revenue/business growth to see if there is introspection that may be valuable towards the business as a whole. Do you perhaps need to provide support to some of these more senior roles that clearly have client traction and clearly seem to bring in revenue.
Honestly I think Dave might be wrong because he hasn’t listened to both sides.
Does her side really matter? She isn’t doing the job she’s being paid to do. And he’s in charge it’s his company.
@@Guitarlvr01 according to what I heard, she’s a top performer in the role. She absolutely is doing the job she’s getting paid to do; it’s the stuff around it That’s the problem.
I agree with you.
4:12 'That's what would happen at Ramsey' - zero tolerance for not meeting expectations (or getting pregnant out of wedlock).
This call right here is the prime reason why you should NEVER be loyal to a company. She excels at particular things and has clear strengths that benefits your business, but because they aren't perfect, you're going to fire them.
Always 3 sides to a story.
Young people probably have no idea who Pigpen is lol
I always love (sarcasm) how Management, Owners, and other Upper folks just assume and demand that everyone should do everything. This guy admits she’s the best at her job that they’ve ever found, so he’s going to fire her for not doing paperwork right. Here’s an idea; HIRE HER AN ADMIN ASSISTANT! Plenty of people love to do that kind of work, and most creatives or socials DO NOT. Cut this crappy drudgery from her list of duties, and she’ll soar even higher. So would your other Recruiters.
I tell ya, with advice like these folks are giving, it’s amazing any businesses succeed at all.
Top earner but average makes no sense
Sees like his story changed.
First she was a rainmaker and then she was average. Which one is it?
If she generates the most income then she's busy doing her job
I swear I've worked for several companies like this. Dave is correct. The rest of the team gets beyond frustrated and had no respect for leadership. The main caveat is a lot of time those bad employees weren't even good at their jobs.
Bosses don't understand how much one employee not working well with the team can demotivate the others.
Now, this guy needs to think about whether the company is getting value out of her doing the paperwork. Maybe the recruiters are far better at just the recruiting and more valuable to the team specifically doing that. Then you have another team or few employees that aren't good at recruiting but good at the paperwork.
Say she brings in $200k in profit per year to the company. You can hire someone at $40k to do the paperwork, maybe it isn't worth it to let her go. There are 2 sides to this story.
"I have a fake company that doesn't produce anything, but we game the system in a way that brings in millions. One of my employees is able to get people to give us a lot of money. But she's not following my made up rules that are completely unconnected with earnings. . Should I fire her?"
Not a benevolent fund, not good for that person either to come to work and struggle + let everyone down. Everyone needs to move on, bad management to leave it. Failed managers do this. 3 strikes and your out, help support and move on. That’s it.
Fire her and she will be taking all those clients with her.
Im good with firing her .
But how is she average but also your best ? Maybe you are wrong about what average performance is in the role .
This man is about to loss 30% of his revenue
Exactly, it's not that simple to fire a top performer and it's really not easy to find and retain top talent in a position like that. If she's not a total bitch I'd consider hiring an assistant to do the paperwork for her. He's probably not paying enough to get top talent in that position which is why he has her in the first place.
Maybe, but you can't keep somebody if they are upsetting everyone else at the same time.
@@powderriver2424 He thinks she is upsetting everyone else. I have had a lot of bosses that the employees couldn't stand who were somehow able to fool themselves into thinking the seething resentment in the room was about someone else.
@@powderriver2424 Maybe they are jealous.
@@powderriver2424 Maybe they are jealous because shes out performing them.
A week later in the newspaper: Woman in Detroit goes postal in office. Nobody can figure out why.
Been there. Let her go and drag down another companies team. Your Team will fire up, and use it as a point to tell your team you made the change to respect what THEY do! It also resets your expectations to your own team, and reinforces YOU appreciate what THEY do when they follow your procedures! before you let her go, you gather her client list, and have it ready to be reassigned to the other Team members... and same day, you have them reach out for new introductions as that companies NEW rep. They dont comment on the fired person, just say they are no longer there, and "I" am your new rep. Also send a follow up hand written letter to each client affected letting them know who the new contact person will be.
She needs an assistant dude!
Not enough info on the deficiencies, but I heard the part where the area she effectively covers is hard to fill.
Disclosure to the world: I am not good at day to day stuff, but BY GOD I am good at the hard stuff. Thankfully we work around my deficiencies and play to my strengths just as I do with staff I am responsible for.
The challenge that I have not tolerated is if this employee is a jerk or sends toxic emails that are not well thought out or other stuff that causes more widespread harm that undoes the values of her good work. It is for this reason that with my own deficiencies (and hard to replace strengths), I am DAMN NICE to people and voice gratitude when someone pings me on some mundane item I am slow on.
No matter how effective someone is, I am a strong believer in every organization having a "No Knucklehead Policy".
"Hey Dave, I got the most excellent person who does things no one else can, but she's bad at something other people find easy to do."
Dave: Fire her.
I would like to see debt free scream segments for entrepreneurs on EntreLeadership.
If you fire someone for not doing there job, you cant be nice like you said. Give them a nice payout and stuff.....that is something you do for a person who was doing there job who got let go cause of changes in the market or changes around the business that have nothing to do with them.
If the customers love her so much, they will take their business somewhere else when she's fired.
What people who don't work in sales don't understand is that top performance selling is a mentality, a "zone" you enter.
For a top sales performer, the highs ARE really high, and the lows are REALLY low.
Having to do menial paperwork takes you out of that zone, introduces routine, and eventually kills your motivation.
I left a job where i was bringing 30% of the revenue myself in a team of 10 people because of BS rulles and new management "vision"
Told them straight up. The new process loses me money, and I want an X salary increase.
No, because X stupid reason. Cool, cool. Here's my letter of resignation 😅
Mmm... Some things seem kinda odd, I think someone like Jocko willink would've asked more question than Ramsay, seems to me like Ramsey delivered the advice like he was talking to an old friend who knows how Ramsey asseces conflict and that what the guy said had no noise in its interpretation
I mean the guy could have read the situation poorly, and Dave assumed he read it right and couldn't amount his guts to fire the team member