I won't be using 3D prints for my actual helix, but they're perfect for something like this. Might work well if I only needed to go up a single level, would need to be more substantial though.
Very informative thank you. 2% is recommended as the steepest gradient on a layout and anything less would make a difference. If you are planning a two track helix then the inner line should be down and the outer up. If you set the outer at 4’-6” using flexi track (check clearances) then it would be at 1.78%. Of course the bigger radius the shallower the gradient if maintaining the same height change. The tender locos seemed to fair worse, possibly the three axles dragging that bit more on the curve.
Rob thanks for this, a lot of good info and food for thought as I am designing a new layout and 4th radius is what I was planning on using for a helix, but now it might be 3rd radius as my room is only 9ft x 16ft (3m x 5m) and 1140mm takes up a lot of room.
Very informative video once again Rob! Keep it up, can’t wait to see more progress on your layout. I have two Hattons original Class 66 and mine suffer the same problem, very detailed but so fragile!
Thanks! I've come to expect the small bits to come off, but this time the massive metal block between the bogies on the underframe just dropped onto the track 🤦🏼♂️
@@LittleWicketRailway oh no sorry to hear that, mine have not shed that extensively but I do from time to time have the odd loco derail and it’s always a part that’s dropped off from a Hattons class 66
Very visible weight transfer away from the drivers when Tornado starts on the helix. Maybe add some more weight in the smokebox? Great video! Planning a layout myself with hidden staging accessible by a helix. Very useful! Thanks!
Nice to see the comparison. 2% is a pretty reasonable gradient in rail terms, but I admit some of those bigger steam engines were slightly disappointing. At least you've got a good idea of what to run on your new layout now.
You may find that the DCC concepts magnet and metal plate system will help increase grip on the helix. I have 2 helixs to build myself and am going to go that route.
A few people have told me to use powerbase as well, but it's quite expensive and requires magnets on locos. Charlie from Chadwick said that it's good for underpowered steam models.
Another interesting video, thanks Rob. One point I noticed was how soon the rack stretched beyond 180 degrees around the curve. I’m sure someone must have done research into how much power is lost when pulling around a curve.
Many Thanks, a very useful video especially as I am considering a helix myself, I see you appear to have created a spreadsheet of your results, a copy of that would be very helpful if you could possibly make that available to download ?
it's possible that the central drivers of larger locomotives are losing contact with the rails around the corners(by design, in most cases) and compounding the effect of corner drag by reducing overall tractive effort
Hi Rob, a very good test for the models and your new layout. Great way of testing actual models, will it be just a single track helix or a double with tighter 3rd rad curves. Wonder if the radius will make a difference as well as not w straight incline, the table of info is great for reference. Looking forward to next video and a railway room update; if one available.. all best Marc
Hi Marc, it's a double track helix, but the tighter 3rd radius is only for trains going down. Filming a layout update tomorrow, but set your expectations low.
I believe Barry Davis has the answer to your Tornado issue - it is back heavy, and as such, pulling away facing up hill accentuates the problem, leaving only a single driving axle in full contact. Put a weight in the smokebox and the problem should be greatly improved.
A good update on the experiment. Are you going to have just a single track helix at 4th radius as I suspect 3rd would have a much bigger impact and 2nd probably next to useless. I have noticed larger steam locos can slow down on 3rd even on the level so if you did want to try it then it would need to be the down track only.
Having seen other videos, people tend to suggest only using 3rd radius for going down and 4th or greater radius for going up, the oval also helps improve things.
Hi Allan, these really aren't good enough to be sold, bit flimsy to be honest and a few design issues. You can see the track bend between supports with the heavier locos.
Hi Rob, Is this the largest Diameter, how high, how high are you going up, how much space is there between the Train and the Underside of the Overhead level. Adding a FLEXI track outside your R4 Radius track
Hi Graeme 👋 this is the largest radius I'll be using, but my helix will have straight bits in the middle, so more of an oval, which should reduce the gradient. Settrack curves are just far easier to use for the hidden areas. There will be a 3rd radius inner track for trains going down. I can't remember the clearance here, I'll measure when I get out to the layout tomorrow. Clearance will be less on my layout helix owing to the thickness of the baseboard. I'll be going up around 50cm.
Hey have a quick question Would you consider getting a Hornby class 31 with mazak rot, sounds strange but hear me out,plz note I am 14 and have little experience with 00 I do n gauge This loco can be picked up for little money when having mazak rot ( just bought a class 31 with mazak rot and a spare chassis for £85) and there is little needed to fix them, they userualy run fine and once cut or broken off and filed down the buffer beams glue in with ease. The only thing too look out for is to check the flywheels are doing there job, if not take the bearing off the drive shaft and unseze it Sounds alot but has boosted my collection and now have 3 class 31 all saved from mazak rot A BR green Hornby one with modded replacement chassis £42.50 An airfix class 31 with a Hornby chassis £0.00 A class 41 (my made up loco) made with a mainline class 42 with a Hornby class 31 chassis £42.50 Just remember if I can do it, anyone can Thanks for reading
Sounds like you're becoming an expert at rescuing locos with mazak rot. Touch wood, I've not had a loco with that problem. If you can get a loco cheaper and fix it up it's a win win. You get a cheap loco and the satisfaction of fixing it. Even if you find it's unfixable then you can break it down for parts.
Hi, I am about to build my first layout, it’s going to be a DCC. I’m using 00 Hornby set track and flexi track only because I have it in boxes for years, unused. I also want to use up my Hornby insulated points ( R 8072 & R 8073 ). Am I wise using these points at the start of a layout build and I will need additional points. Will I stick with these points ?. Most of my locos are long and heavy like the Deltic, Eurostar etc. I’m using seep point motors with switch for feedback. Do I need to remove the spring from the points?. I’d appreciate your thoughts on this. Keep up the great videos. Many thanks, Alan.
Hi Alan, there's nothing wrong with Hornby points, especially if you've already got them. I've switched to Peco because there's a wiser variety of size and I wanted electrofrog. If you're using solenoid point motors I'd leave the springs in so that the blades stay in position. You'll possibly need capacity discharge units (CDU) for the seep point motors to give them enough power to overcome the spring though. Good luck with the build!
Thanks for getting back to me. I’m using an ESU switch pilot so I don’t think I need a CDU, but I don’t know if the output will drive two points at the same time. The default setting is to fire the points for only 250mS.
Sir i was trying to setup my DCC++ station using Arduino but when i connected all system then I was not able to detect my locomotive on the programming track
That was very interesting. How high was the helix? from ground level. I want to run a double track high level of five inches from the ground. What worries me is how long a run up to five inches would I need? Martin. (Thailand)
5 inch rise at 2 degree slope is 142 inch lenght slope. Formula is 5/tan(slope in degrees), ensure that the tan calution is performed in degrees as the alternative scheme is radians which you don't want.
Some interesting results! And that helix design is intriguing, I myself plan 2 helices on my layout so this information is fantastic. Thanks
I won't be using 3D prints for my actual helix, but they're perfect for something like this. Might work well if I only needed to go up a single level, would need to be more substantial though.
Very informative thank you. 2% is recommended as the steepest gradient on a layout and anything less would make a difference. If you are planning a two track helix then the inner line should be down and the outer up. If you set the outer at 4’-6” using flexi track (check clearances) then it would be at 1.78%. Of course the bigger radius the shallower the gradient if maintaining the same height change. The tender locos seemed to fair worse, possibly the three axles dragging that bit more on the curve.
My son and I were just discussing installing a helix on our planned layout over breakfast just now! Well timed!
“Every time I get it out of the box it tries to make itself lighter…” 😂
Rob thanks for this, a lot of good info and food for thought as I am designing a new layout and 4th radius is what I was planning on using for a helix, but now it might be 3rd radius as my room is only 9ft x 16ft (3m x 5m) and 1140mm takes up a lot of room.
Excellent video, useful information for future reference.
Very informative video once again Rob! Keep it up, can’t wait to see more progress on your layout.
I have two Hattons original Class 66 and mine suffer the same problem, very detailed but so fragile!
Thanks! I've come to expect the small bits to come off, but this time the massive metal block between the bogies on the underframe just dropped onto the track 🤦🏼♂️
@@LittleWicketRailway oh no sorry to hear that, mine have not shed that extensively but I do from time to time have the odd loco derail and it’s always a part that’s dropped off from a Hattons class 66
you make modeling seem doable..thank you
Very visible weight transfer away from the drivers when Tornado starts on the helix. Maybe add some more weight in the smokebox?
Great video! Planning a layout myself with hidden staging accessible by a helix. Very useful! Thanks!
Great video. Thank you.
Thanks 👍
Very interesting 👌
I like the 3d printed stands
Nice to see the comparison. 2% is a pretty reasonable gradient in rail terms, but I admit some of those bigger steam engines were slightly disappointing. At least you've got a good idea of what to run on your new layout now.
Yeah, a few disappointments. Class 395 was the biggest relief, the motor looks pathetic, but it made it up.
You may find that the DCC concepts magnet and metal plate system will help increase grip on the helix. I have 2 helixs to build myself and am going to go that route.
Charlie from Chadwick convinced me to give it a go, so I've got a couple of packs to try. Let me know how you get on?
Interesting test , can't wait to see more. I think all my current loco's would fail, they all need a makeover.
A few people have told me to use powerbase as well, but it's quite expensive and requires magnets on locos. Charlie from Chadwick said that it's good for underpowered steam models.
Very nice thanks for sharing 👍🏻🚂 TSM
Thanks TSM! 👍
Another interesting video, thanks Rob. One point I noticed was how soon the rack stretched beyond 180 degrees around the curve. I’m sure someone must have done research into how much power is lost when pulling around a curve.
I hope you had an enjoyable day at Warley NEC event today as I did. I was going to introduce myself but you were chatting on your mobile.
I absolutely loved it. What did you think? Sorry we didn't get a chance to meet. Definitely at the next exhibition.
@@LittleWicketRailway I thought it was the best I've attended.
Oh Rob, no buffer-stop at the top. Surely you must have one Blooper moment with one item going over the Little Wicket cliff (helix) top, lol.
Only one close call where the big red button was used 😬
@@LittleWicketRailway You could say it was a Rail Close Call, Rob, lol. Play safely my friend.
Many Thanks, a very useful video especially as I am considering a helix myself, I see you appear to have created a spreadsheet of your results, a copy of that would be very helpful if you could possibly make that available to download ?
it's possible that the central drivers of larger locomotives are losing contact with the rails around the corners(by design, in most cases) and compounding the effect of corner drag by reducing overall tractive effort
Good theory, I expect the length generates more friction. Maybe the tender/tender connection increases drag.
Hi Rob, a very good test for the models and your new layout. Great way of testing actual models, will it be just a single track helix or a double with tighter 3rd rad curves. Wonder if the radius will make a difference as well as not w straight incline, the table of info is great for reference. Looking forward to next video and a railway room update; if one available.. all best Marc
Hi Marc, it's a double track helix, but the tighter 3rd radius is only for trains going down. Filming a layout update tomorrow, but set your expectations low.
SAME WE CANT SAVE THE VIDEO
I believe Barry Davis has the answer to your Tornado issue - it is back heavy, and as such, pulling away facing up hill accentuates the problem, leaving only a single driving axle in full contact. Put a weight in the smokebox and the problem should be greatly improved.
A good update on the experiment. Are you going to have just a single track helix at 4th radius as I suspect 3rd would have a much bigger impact and 2nd probably next to useless. I have noticed larger steam locos can slow down on 3rd even on the level so if you did want to try it then it would need to be the down track only.
Having seen other videos, people tend to suggest only using 3rd radius for going down and 4th or greater radius for going up, the oval also helps improve things.
Love the Helix!!! Would dearly like to know where you got those risers or who makes them. Also, what is the diameter of the helix??
Hi Jim, I designed and 3D printed the risers and it's about 4ft diameter (hornby 4th radius). Thanks.
@@LittleWicketRailway any chance you could send me that 3D program?? Next question - what is the per cent finished Grade??
any thoughts on printing and selling your helix stands ???
Hi Allan, these really aren't good enough to be sold, bit flimsy to be honest and a few design issues. You can see the track bend between supports with the heavier locos.
Hi Rob, Is this the largest Diameter, how high, how high are you going up, how much space is there between the Train and the Underside of the Overhead level. Adding a FLEXI track outside your R4 Radius track
Hi Graeme 👋 this is the largest radius I'll be using, but my helix will have straight bits in the middle, so more of an oval, which should reduce the gradient. Settrack curves are just far easier to use for the hidden areas. There will be a 3rd radius inner track for trains going down. I can't remember the clearance here, I'll measure when I get out to the layout tomorrow. Clearance will be less on my layout helix owing to the thickness of the baseboard. I'll be going up around 50cm.
I hope u will help me with this!
Hey have a quick question
Would you consider getting a Hornby class 31 with mazak rot, sounds strange but hear me out,plz note I am 14 and have little experience with 00 I do n gauge
This loco can be picked up for little money when having mazak rot ( just bought a class 31 with mazak rot and a spare chassis for £85) and there is little needed to fix them, they userualy run fine and once cut or broken off and filed down the buffer beams glue in with ease. The only thing too look out for is to check the flywheels are doing there job, if not take the bearing off the drive shaft and unseze it
Sounds alot but has boosted my collection and now have 3 class 31 all saved from mazak rot
A BR green Hornby one with modded replacement chassis £42.50
An airfix class 31 with a Hornby chassis £0.00
A class 41 (my made up loco) made with a mainline class 42 with a Hornby class 31 chassis £42.50
Just remember if I can do it, anyone can
Thanks for reading
Sounds like you're becoming an expert at rescuing locos with mazak rot. Touch wood, I've not had a loco with that problem. If you can get a loco cheaper and fix it up it's a win win. You get a cheap loco and the satisfaction of fixing it. Even if you find it's unfixable then you can break it down for parts.
@@LittleWicketRailway your right there, so far a haven't been beaten, considering a Garrett made with Hornby 0-4-0 chassis
Hi,
I am about to build my first layout, it’s going to be a DCC. I’m using 00 Hornby set track and flexi track only because I have it in boxes for years, unused. I also want to use up my Hornby insulated points ( R 8072 & R 8073 ). Am I wise using these points at the start of a layout build and I will need additional points. Will I stick with these points ?. Most of my locos are long and heavy like the Deltic, Eurostar etc. I’m using seep point motors with switch for feedback. Do I need to remove the spring from the points?. I’d appreciate your thoughts on this. Keep up the great videos.
Many thanks, Alan.
Hi Alan, there's nothing wrong with Hornby points, especially if you've already got them. I've switched to Peco because there's a wiser variety of size and I wanted electrofrog.
If you're using solenoid point motors I'd leave the springs in so that the blades stay in position. You'll possibly need capacity discharge units (CDU) for the seep point motors to give them enough power to overcome the spring though.
Good luck with the build!
Thanks for getting back to me. I’m using an ESU switch pilot so I don’t think I need a CDU, but I don’t know if the output will drive two points at the same time. The default setting is to fire the points for only 250mS.
I hope you and yours enjoy the Christmas holidays. Alan
@Alan White thanks Alan, you too, have a wonderful Christmas!
What Helix would you suggest on a ho scale track
Sir i was trying to setup my DCC++ station using Arduino but when i connected all system then I was not able to detect my locomotive on the programming track
Where did you get it if you don't mind me
I designed and 3D printed the helix supports myself. You wouldn't want to use them on a layout, they're not really sturdy enough.
That was very interesting. How high was the helix? from ground level. I want to run a double track high level of five inches from the ground. What worries me is how long a run up to five inches would I need? Martin. (Thailand)
5 inch rise at 2 degree slope is 142 inch lenght slope. Formula is 5/tan(slope in degrees), ensure that the tan calution is performed in degrees as the alternative scheme is radians which you don't want.
nice but use a bigger engine that's a toy you got there mate.