Separating the art from the artist is both necessary and a bit impossible, right? It is good to flag these outdated views, acknowledge the faults. It's ESPECIALLY important to discuss among fans. It was really difficult to hear the UCLA interview, but acknowledging the expiration date on that stance is very important going forward as a community. Baby and the bathwater and all that. In some ways this reminds me of the US Founding Fathers' deity status...like yeah! they did an incredibly impressive thing and also were maybe not great individuals by themselves in a vacuum or even in their community. The bill of rights still slaps, though
This is a ridiculous read on Frank Herbert, he was a man of his times & back then everyone was homophobic, gays were just starting as a group to come out of the closet still. I was in my early 20s in 1985 & I was scared to come out of the closet still. It was dangerous times even then, I got arrested in the military & discharged because my mom turned me in for being gay. So this guy is comparing his modern views onto a man who lived in very homophobic times. You can't compare & label people from their time period to your modern time period. This criticism is invalid & without merit.
I hate the way of looking at things that tries to categorize every person as either One Of The Good Ones or One Of The Bad Ones. People are complicated and often contradictory. FH had views about ecology and environmentalism that could be considered progressive even by 2024 standards. He also had views about homosexuality that could be considered regressive even by 1985 standards. The way he depicted gender in his books was progressive for the time and regressive for our time. We need to accept all of that if we want to examine him as a thinker. Thank you for having a nuanced discussion rather than just trying to label him A Good One or A Bad One.
@@PauLtus_B A lot of the loudest voices in online fandom. Maybe I'm just terminally online, but it feels like the last 10 years of fandom has been dominated by the "Harry Potter was actually never any good" people fighting with the "Star Wars is terrible now that they put a girl in it" people. It's refreshing to see a discussion where people acknowledge an author's terrible views, while also acknowledging that that's not the only relevant fact about the author or their work.
@@scottbutler5 Yeah, that's unfortunately actually pretty accurate to online discourse. I think I wasn't interpreting your initial comment right. I think Dune is interesting for still being so immensely politically relevant so it'd be sad to dismiss it based on elements, that, well, "haven't aged well" but also don't dismiss these elements as "just a product of their time". I find Lord of the Rings very interesting for that matter as it can't exactly be called a work with much diversity but still has good messaging for the sake of diversity. The Star Wars fandom is just downright unpleasant right now... ...but I feel more sorry for some of the Harry Potter fans who can recognise some of the "warning signs" in that work, especially for some trans people for whom it was especially meaningful but now knowing that the creator hates them.
Applying modern thought to historical work is a fruitless venture. As a gay person, I take no issue with Frank’s views, nor do I feel he was homophobic. He had incorrect takes, sure, but he was not homophobic.
Will all due respect, you guys speak like you have the correct view 100% proven scientifically. Have you considered you could be mistaken on this issue? On a sensitive issue it might be hard but that’s no excuse. I am talking about homophobia and not wether frank herbert was a homophobe.
Separating the art from the artist is both necessary and a bit impossible, right? It is good to flag these outdated views, acknowledge the faults. It's ESPECIALLY important to discuss among fans. It was really difficult to hear the UCLA interview, but acknowledging the expiration date on that stance is very important going forward as a community. Baby and the bathwater and all that.
In some ways this reminds me of the US Founding Fathers' deity status...like yeah! they did an incredibly impressive thing and also were maybe not great individuals by themselves in a vacuum or even in their community. The bill of rights still slaps, though
💜
This is a ridiculous read on Frank Herbert, he was a man of his times & back then everyone was homophobic, gays were just starting as a group to come out of the closet still. I was in my early 20s in 1985 & I was scared to come out of the closet still. It was dangerous times even then, I got arrested in the military & discharged because my mom turned me in for being gay. So this guy is comparing his modern views onto a man who lived in very homophobic times. You can't compare & label people from their time period to your modern time period. This criticism is invalid & without merit.
your own mum 😞
I hate the way of looking at things that tries to categorize every person as either One Of The Good Ones or One Of The Bad Ones. People are complicated and often contradictory. FH had views about ecology and environmentalism that could be considered progressive even by 2024 standards. He also had views about homosexuality that could be considered regressive even by 1985 standards. The way he depicted gender in his books was progressive for the time and regressive for our time. We need to accept all of that if we want to examine him as a thinker.
Thank you for having a nuanced discussion rather than just trying to label him A Good One or A Bad One.
Who's doing that categorisation?
@@PauLtus_B A lot of the loudest voices in online fandom. Maybe I'm just terminally online, but it feels like the last 10 years of fandom has been dominated by the "Harry Potter was actually never any good" people fighting with the "Star Wars is terrible now that they put a girl in it" people. It's refreshing to see a discussion where people acknowledge an author's terrible views, while also acknowledging that that's not the only relevant fact about the author or their work.
@@scottbutler5 Yeah, that's unfortunately actually pretty accurate to online discourse.
I think I wasn't interpreting your initial comment right.
I think Dune is interesting for still being so immensely politically relevant so it'd be sad to dismiss it based on elements, that, well, "haven't aged well" but also don't dismiss these elements as "just a product of their time".
I find Lord of the Rings very interesting for that matter as it can't exactly be called a work with much diversity but still has good messaging for the sake of diversity.
The Star Wars fandom is just downright unpleasant right now...
...but I feel more sorry for some of the Harry Potter fans who can recognise some of the "warning signs" in that work, especially for some trans people for whom it was especially meaningful but now knowing that the creator hates them.
Applying modern thought to historical work is a fruitless venture. As a gay person, I take no issue with Frank’s views, nor do I feel he was homophobic. He had incorrect takes, sure, but he was not homophobic.
Will all due respect, you guys speak like you have the correct view 100% proven scientifically. Have you considered you could be mistaken on this issue? On a sensitive issue it might be hard but that’s no excuse. I am talking about homophobia and not wether frank herbert was a homophobe.
One of the first things Abu says is literally "and again, this could reshaped again in 6 months if learn something different or new." ...