They need to make lore accurate training stages. Instead of being “the grid” have it be a gym or a standard boxing ring. In Fighterz for example it could be the gravity chamber or hyperbolic time chamber. Instead of a generic stage have it make sense.
in Street Fighter, and KOF too, it could be a gym like those MMA fighters/boxers go to train before their fights. it could even have a punching bag in Training Mode
Imagine a training stage in GG Strive: you break the wall, have the character travel a huge distance with the background being identical and then both characters land in the exact same spot 😂
I definitely agree that its on devs, not players, to create incentives for stage variety. I think it's okay for there to be stages that lean into presentation over competitive viability (gotta have something for story mode after all) but situations like "I can't play on my main's home stage because it lags my console" are huge bummers on top of the reduced cool factor in competitive play. Letting intros rock on a real stage brings the hype in a way that a training stage can't match imo
I think Tekken did it best. Each stage is unique with its own layout, design and songs. The stages also provided interact-able elements players could take advantage of for either more damage or a more advantageous position and really rewarded those with awareness and adaptability.
@@shaiuken7150 The original reference is a news caster on Fox who got angry with technical difficulties and started yelling "We're doing it live!". DmC was referencing that.
As legally blind fighting game player I feel like a deviant having to default to the training stage because of its minimalist darker background that the characters don't blend into. Darker backgrounds are imperative for me to be able to play successfully. King of fighters 15 actually solved this issue for me by creating a contrast setting in display settings that allow you to literally mute the background into a darker background. Super helpful and awesome for grinding and practicing and playing online
@@Luke-nx1pb under the right conditions it's easy. Like Max was saying Tekken 7 has a variety of backgrounds and the elements don't blend together very well or as much as Street fighter. Always a positive when I find a character with a light colored costume with a level stage with dark background. If I'm on a light background the character has to have a costume that is dark so that there is contrast. Actually pretty easy and I've even competed
I think a viable solution could be to allow for stages to be played with a "tournament mode" setting for those wanting to hyper-optimize their playing conditions. Basically just allow players to voluntarily remove parts of the fluff content in the background of a stage in order to reduce the amount of resources their system needs to render the scene. This could be disabling background particle effects, certain background actors (ex. celebrating/hyped NPCS) / assets (cars, billboards, various props etc.) and other non-game impacting background content. By simply not rendering models and textures, the CPU and GPU will be taxed less and will be able to spend more resources rendering the rest of the scene, making it easier to achieve a stable high FPS. As far as I know, nothing regarding the state of the graphical assets renderered on a scene is typically sent between clients on a networked game, so it should have zero impact on the gameplay itself (other than a slightly less spectacular looking game). Of course, this type of solution still requires developers to respect a system's resources when designing levels, which seems to be the actual problem.
Developers for fighting games like Street Fighter and Smash work so hard to make these beautiful, amazing stages with awesome music and then no one plays on them because it’s “too distracting”😑
Pretty sure most people play on the non-training stages so it's not accurate to say no one plays on them. It's mainly the higher tier/pro players that avoid them because they prefer to focus on the match/winning.
Ironically, some stage are banned in ultimate despite they’re legal in Melee or ban them because they’re too similar to legal stage so instead they let’s them on animal crossing or Pokémon stadium 80% of the time
In terms of Smash I also hate that stages are banned for looking "too similar to other stages" like Midgar looking too similar to Battlefield and whatnot, like what??
I'm glad you're talking about this because this has been one of the biggest problems for me with Street Fighter 5, you tune in to watch it and two hours of watching graph paper just makes you feel numb. Yes it is true there is value to just watching high level play, but when you're watching it in the fighting game equivalent of a sensory deprivation tank then everything loses all meaning and nothing matters. My big fear though is that after years and years of players having to pick the Grid because it's the stage that the game runs the best on, I fear that even if Devs fixed that and now all stages ran perfectly and we could get undeniable proof that every stage ran the same, players would now be superstition to the point where they just believe the Grid still is the best stage.
You never really see people complain about League of Legends or DOTA2 always happening on the same stage. CSGO happens on the same handful of stages, Smash happens on the same handful of stages, PUBG and Fortnite happen on the same stage, Chess and Go happen on a grid, Scrabble happens on a grid, Tetris happens on a grid, Soccer and Football happen on a ruler. Top players in every game reduce their graphics settings to maximize stability and clarity. Why is this a problem for fighting games but no one else? What makes fighting game fans want players to play worse for visual flair?
@@grandsquanchrum Because the "same stages" in these games is not a blank "graph paper". The "same stage" in fighting games like SF is a fucking void, with nothing around and that's boring.
@@francesinhadopudim5870 I listed Chess and Go which happen on a grid. Tetris as well. The stage is only a little relevant to the gameplay in so far as giving points of reference for how far the wall is and the much hated, apparently, grid giving measurement marks for accurate footsies. These other games are more than a grid because their stages are relevant to the gameplay. Smash also tends to happen on samey voids with FD and Battlefield. Honestly wanting to get rid of grid is the weirdest fucking thing for the fgc to get hung up on since it's not only a casual stance but an anti-competitive stance that doesn't effect casual appeal in any meaningful way.
@@grandsquanchrum Isn´t it weird that pro players with who knows how many hours in theyr respective game still need a grid to play theyr footsies properly? I´d argue that is bullshit and pros don´t need a crutch like that. So it obviously comes down to games technical performance. In smash players wanted more stages forever. They can´t play on other stages because most stages have gimmicks or are not symmetric. That is why they mostly play in a void. LoL, DOTA and the shooters you listed have way more interactivity with theyr maps. They dictate the way you play. It is more than just the background. Those maps are inticrately crafted. They can´t just be swapped out. Board games like chess... holy shit I can´t believe you even bring up games like this in this conversation. They are BOARD games. Made to be played in real life with the board dictating the game... Ok even if we entertain the thought with chess it´s the same as any 2D Fighter. The board is always the same just like the stages in 2D fighting games. The width of the stage is always the same but the location where you play can be different. The same goes for sports. The field dictates a way to play. The location itself can be very different. I get that in fighting games at any point you need to know where exactly on the stage you are. But for that you don´t need a grid. Let´s take Guilty Gear as an example. It doesn´t have a single grid stage and the stages aren´t symmetrical in theyr visuals. Still I always know where on the stage the players are thanks to the design of the stages and the camera. The reason why you don´t see forest in Strive is because it drops frames on lesser hardware. And by lesser I mean SERIOUSLY bad hardware. This game runs even on extremely outdated PCs how can the Playstation not keep up?
I love Mortal Kombat Xs training stage. Not only was it thematically different, in that it was like a simulation room, but you could have it as a vanilla stage or have it mimic the environmental interactions of every other stage in the game, so you didnt lose anything gameplay wise.
Honestly, the one grid-style training stage I actually really love is the one from Tatsunoko vs. Capcom. Probably because it's really the only one with any ounce of personality.
This is a really difficult situation, because it seems unless the stage has an novel gameplay element that is critical to strategy, i.e. Tekken, Virtua Fighter, DOA, Smash Bros, most serious players are always going to choose the most visually optimal stage in the game. The only real solution I can see is make the "training stage" equivalent look visually interesting in some unique way without impacting the function of a training stage. Or just make the training stage unselectable and ensuring all stages provide adequate visual clarity without being boring.
I don't think it's that tough. Sure, the hardcore grinders like it because it makes gauging their spacing a more exact science but very clearly these games can be played at a high level without using a literal ruler as your stage art. I think KI is a fine template for how to do things. Even though the community settled on a few less-distracting / more-optimized stages that are the de facto training room, the different options are at least visually distinct and allow for player preference to add some flavor to the stream. Leave the training room for training mode.
I literally do blame the players myself, honestly. Like, I kinda get it. And for Marvel 3 and SF 4 it really made sense. But a lot of these *do not* have the same issues as prevalently as those two games.
I think Tekken 7 provides a good example of how to do it better: the stages are beautiful and they are not too busy. I do find it cool when a stage has all of these background elements in it, but they could cut some of that out, maybe turn it into random variations of the stage, so that they are not all there together at the same time, and make it so that the background elements are simple and unobtrusive, like Tekken 7 has a chopper that will move a bit and shoot in one stage, maybe you'll get some lava splashes in another one, etc, minor animations.
Playing on stages like this is so immersion busting. Like you got two combatants with intro dialogs that sometimes include special interactions, dressed up in garbs pertaining to their story and background and then they unwittingly always fight in a grid?
That's one of the reasons I like to watch Tekken 7 tournaments. The stage choice matters and we get to see strategy and variety on the stage choices. I wish more games would do that
Yes, catering to the hard-core audience keeps a franchise alive. But at least making it visually appealing so even a casual can glance at it and think "that looks neat, leet me see some more" is important to bring new players on or to fill the stands with spectators and make that franchise thrive.
@@votedbestjustin bro did you even watch the video. Theres obvious reasons why players pick the grid. The issue is defs put out these stages that make the game laggy af. The issue is the devs need to think about stage lag when making there stages not the players picking the most optimal stages
@@exiaR2x78 I agree that devs are very much at fault. I'm just saying that in hardwired tournements sold as an entertaing event it's also fair for crowds to not like the most boring stage and find it annoying when someone picks it or even completely bail if it's the permanent stage for a tournament. It's equal to only playing top tier characters or spamming the same stuff every round. They're within their rights to do it but there's no swag or style to it which, in my opinion, is the largest selling point of the FGC to newcomers. To each their own when playing themselves but international events shouldn't be slapped with a Grey coat of paint if they want to be taken seriously.
@@votedbestjustin I only really watch SFV tournaments actively and tekken here and there, the offline tournaments outside of S1 in SFV the grid was barely used and was actually banned at some point. The online tournaments is where the grid is mostly used and due to it being online its completely understandable why. Havent followed much KOF but play it at locals and the game has some stages with big frame drops unfortunately
6:12 "You would think that the training stage could remain for ... Training" Max bestowed the Truth upon us, and then ascended to eternal glory, in a beam of light.
Entirely on the devs. They need to have visual distinction and clarity on all environments and characters unless it's expressly a part of a characters design, and ensure the stages don't impact performance.
My biggest fear when it comes to this is developers making the stages too bland to fix this issue. Some of my favorite fighting games stages are the huge, exorbitant ones (I don't play super competitively). I feel like a good balance would be to have stages of varying complexity. Have simpler stages like some kind of fighting ring or the dramatic field with grass blowing in the wind (fucking love those settings btw). And then you can have your super crazy stages with parades and stuff in the background. If devs did nothing by efficiency with stages, fighting games would lack a big element of charm since you can see big fighting game backgrounds all the way back in Street Fighter 2. Even if not every stage is usable, we would at least have SOMETHING. And maybe, just maybe, we can get rid of the purgatory that is the training stage.
Imo, old-school SNK stages (Samsho, The Last Blade, etc) are still some of the best in the industry. They weren't, for the most part, garish or particularly distracting, but they were still very nice to look at.
As a spectator, different stages also give different stories. When a moment happens on a specific stage, it’s built into it and makes it more memorable
Exactly. New York underground isn't one of the most iconic fighting game stages because it looks nice - it's also remembered for being the stage Moment 37 was played out on, there's a whole narrative regarding it. And you can't get those narratives when everyone always uses the same exact stage.
Not even just moments like that, but just even the "attitude" of a certain game. When you say games like SF2 or SF3: Third Strike, the backgrounds make you think of the feel of a game and what it's all about. With SF5, all you see is "grid." This makes the game feel super dry and only for technical players.
This feels like another "The player will optimize the fun out of the game." kind of deal, maybe it would just be better to not have the featureless training stage be useable. Although it would probably result in people using the least intrusive stage.
I've said before, if they jazzed up a grid with changing colours, maybe painted it up with the new graffiti aesthetic, maybe neon lights, I think that would be sick.
If only it had what Tekken have. Every Tekken stage is different in sizes and whether it has wall or not. So the training stage "Geometric Plane" is rarely used because player has to take the size and shape to their advantage. I did heard Capcom basically made a system in their CPT stream, that Grid is allowed but the viewers won't see Grid.
Another point for tekken is that in Tag 2, they actually did add in a "grid" training stage as a "special stage" that was selectable in practice and versus. But the stage uniquely contained every kind of stage extension mechanic: floor break, balcony break, and wall break. So it still carried the usual pros/cons that you would see in competitive player selections while also being a good go-to to practice combos and situations with all of those mechanics without having to flip between stages in most scenarios.
I can imagine stage variety being important for a lot of spectators. Aside from ensuring steady performance on all stages, devs should consider incorporating aspects of the "grid" stages into regular stages to make them usable for the same reasons. Furthermore, devs should either ensure no stage hurts visibility of characters and their moves, or they should create tournament versions that create more contrast between the fighters and the backgrounds (maybe by fading the backgrounds) and remove obstructions from the foreground as applicable. If they're concerned about the appearance of the games for spectators, then have another instance of the match that's going on being rendered with normal graphical settings on a separate machine.
I liked Tekken 7's training stage with all the geometry floating about, it was a walled stage instead of being an infinite one and smashing into the walls would cause glowy bits to break apart and scatter around, each stage had a different size and the variety is important for competition so you need to be familiar with all the stages, by doing that they made it so every stage was played.
Not to mention that with how each stage plays out also can benefit some characters like master raven where walls allow for max damage combos whereas open stages can punish her maximum output and can leave some options limited. It adds in a dynamic layer of potential for either crazy combos or being able to utilize the stage with mechanics like wall leaping over an attack to dodge. Just the small stuff
I think there should be 2 versions of each stage, one regular with all the eye candy for the ones who can and want it and a second one with barely minimum elements on the background. Or options to disable those elements and maybe tweak the lightning for pvp matches and leave things as they should be for 1 player modes. Much as people tend to disable blur effects because they are too distracting, these should be options too. Also, they can make every stage a training stage by activating a grid mode on the ground. Maybe not the most visual appealing thing, but if we are talking about competitions I think players would be happy to oblige instead of fighting every match on the grid stage. All games are in 3d nowadays, even 2d games, so why not taking advantage of that?
@@BrocktaviusKingofNFC Agreed. It started with Street Fighter X Tekken, so many stages are filled with "look at me!!!" characters, and the trend continued to an extent with Street Fighter V. Jesus, the Lair of the 4 Kings was so dumb. It had this ominous music playing, while the stage was filled with wizards, pink ninjas, and goofy robots. So wacky!
As a casual fighting game fan, the thing that always made me roll my eyes when I got into an SF4 match online was when the announcer said the word "training stage". Like you, I made sure to mod that shit out of my game when I switched to the PC version.
I think there should be a "streaming mode" where you can play on training stage you want but chose to have other stages being shown for the people you're streaming. Capcom had it in the pro tour, but it only happened in that tournament, which feels like a waste
Unnecesary indeed. Are you gonna tell me that competitive players can't play in another stage that's not Training stage? It's like they are using "training wheels" to measure spacing ._. It's like sure, you are the whatever game champion, but if you cannot play on another stage that's not Training Stage, are you really any good?
@@Elratauru of course they can But you could also play basketball with a court with no visible markings and just have the player's guess. That will make the level of play much lower, so if you just prefer to watch worse gameplay, good for you
I thought the training stages in MK9 and MKX were good. They weren't just a bland grid (yes mkx was a grid too but it had interesting monitor stuff in the background and interactables are also a thing).
I remember unlocking the concept art for the training stage in MKX. The devs stated that they wanted to add much more to the stage such as people training in the background, but they then felt that it took away the point of the stage, which is to train. Because of that, they scaled it back to a grid like training stage with the holographic interactibles.
big pet peeve of mine too. It’s almost as bad as top tiers being SO good that every top 5 goes to the same two or three characters. Double F’s for when you get both training stage and finals being flooded with the only viable character lol
Agreed, honestly. And people whine when it's new games, but love old games and it suddenly doesn't matter there, even the same players in high level play. Devs just gotta remove training stage or only allow it in training mode. Enough is enough.
Reasons why I despise watching top tier matches in Melee, MvC2, etc. Granted, I completely understand why....you'd want the best possible chance to win cause that's why you're in a tourney......to win. But for me it's not as interesting.
I would say to make "training stage" a "training mode” instead which would overlay an adjustable opacity grid over the pre-existing stage of your choice (similar to how some games let you turn on visual hit and hurt boxes in training mode) but there would be no “blank void/grid room” as a selectable stage on it’s own.
As a viewer, the training stage makes each match feel the same and just makes the games look gray and uninteresting. Mix it up and make it fun! For players wanting to use the grid to help in neutral, I think that's weak. Learning their neutral on different stages (or regardless of stage) is its own skill. As for some stages slowing stuff down, yeah, that's on dev's to sort out.
The sfv Dojo stage they added years later is really cool the training stage should always be like that. And if you wanna do the grid stage make it customizable with colors and your favorite characters image in the background.
one thing i would like to note in tournaments, Training stage is the FIRST option in these games when you are at the stage select part of character select. some people just mash their way through this part so unconsciously they end up picking training stage. i think setting the initial option of stage select to random would help a little bit. not entirely but would help
definitely dont set to random. Especially for competitive. Some stages can cause frame delays because they’re too intensive, for example destroyed namek on DBFZ has been proven to cause frame drops because of how much is going on in the background
Well, then the actual DELIBERATE DESIGN ASPECTS of the games are OPENLY encouraging training as the default. But can you really blame devs when console makers, in their paranoia over piracy, deny them the full console specs? Like, if you're literally going to make your consoles JUST powerful enough to not lag these games because cost matters, give devs the full specs. People mainly do fighters on consoles for consistency. Don't force it to be a bad consistency.
@@parcival3016 that's honestly on the devs accord to fix that, games like tekken and SC tourney standards dictate that first stage is always random, yet their games don't experience frame drops. there are also other workaround ways that devs can do to fix that, if they cant accord frame drops one simple way is really just let players choose what stages will be on random and what isn't.
Imagine being a level designer. Put in all the effort into colors, art, animation etc and to have players pick only graph paper training stage. I feel that this degrades the quality of the game, by not enjoying the complete game. Thanks, Max for covering this topic. I feel the same way.
Welcome to every delevoper who makes game in a realistic artstyle these days. Its called diminishing returns and it has nothing to do with inarguably the most useful stage in fighting games.
How about developers make stages that aren't laggy or fit with what game they're playing? It doesn't matter if there is a training stage or not, high level players will always pick the same handful of stages that are visable and stable.
The issues with some stages mentioned (frame drops etc.) are legit concerns that devs need to be better about. But the player allergy to anything other than the most optimal conditions is kinda pathetic. Any sport played outside has to deal with variable conditions. The players of such sports don't whine and only play on the days when the ambient temp is x, relative humidity y, and sun is in position z. If they did, they'd never get to play. So they just do their thing and adapt. Ability to adapt to more than just your opponent is as much a part of sport as anything else. Video games allow for the control of conditions to a degree which doesn't exist in any other sport. But the trade off is matches that are interchangeable and which sacrifice one of the biggest selling points of these games. No real world golf course is ever going to be as interesting as a fighting game stage. Capcom's solution with SFV was pretty good. But I'd much rather see a situation where maps are variable from match to match and players have to get over their allergy to visual noise.
In terms of online play if you have a choice between a stage which will make the experience worse with more lag or a stage where there is less lag, your going to pick the stage with the less amount of lag. Comparing to real sports isnt really viable if weather conditions are bad enough a game will get called off even at professional level. In terms of offline play I only really follow SFV closely but the majority of the offline CPT tournaments ive watched they dont use the grind its random stage and top 8s are whatever that years CPT stage is. Watching CB idk why players went back to the grind, im guessing there was set up lag from some of the weird drops I saw which might have been why.
This is why I still like watching most 3D fighters like Soul Calibur or Tekken. If they still want to be optimal, fine, but at least they adapt to what's in front of them.
As a casual SF tournament spectator, i can just agree that this makes me leave the stream. Imagine a movie, where the actors just act on a green screen in the back ... Atmokiller at its best. i am a tekken player, we luckily dont have this issue
@@Mister100Percent Totally agree, even got different visuals for each entry in the series. Was more thinking that there's so many more stages yet you see FD 90% of matches.
2 роки тому+3
*I made a suggestion to Capcom, and tagged Maximilian on twitter, before he made this video. I suggested that they add graffiti that could be earned during single player or in other ways. PLEASE LIKE FOR HIM TO SEE IT.*
2 роки тому
I'm brazilian, btw.
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Graffiti could be used in the training stage, and whoever hosted the match could show their training stage, with their graffiti.
Coming from smash I admit it was a shock to see people being so picky with stages in other games, in Smash we ban a stage because it has some jank ass hazard that kills your at 0% or because it makes running away too easy, or it removes offstage interaction, or it's just too inconvenient for most of the cast to navigate, etc. Never picking Daily Bugle because the background moves feels like such a minor thing to care about lol
I mean to be fair, the sephiroth one literally has hell fire casually happening back there. I remember finding the final destination for smash 4 to be so annoying for that very reason. A stage having blinding flashes of light is a no from me
Smash has a ton of stages, so it's not a problem banning one stage. The problem is that the stage backgrounds can blend with the effect attacks and players who aren't used to a moving background can get them dizzy
I love the way that ttt2 and t7 does it, the training stages are special buttons you have to press on stage select. this mean the rules are you can only select stages from the available list in front of you.
Tatsunoko VS Capcom and Capcom VS SNK 2 (the actual first grid stage I remember personally) both have great looking training stages with visual appeal. I'd still hate for those to be the only stages people ever pick, but if ALL training stages did something unique like that, it wouldn't be so bad.
I used to like SF4's training stage because of the music, but I also got bored with Training Stage tournament finals REALLY FAST. Shout outs to Overpass for being the best stage in Street Fighter IV that almost never got used in finals.
*laughs in tekken * Its important for non tekken people to understand a big part of the stages in tekken is it plays in into certain characters style. Walls, breakaway floors... Some characters thrive on it. So you essentially counter pick a stage sometimes depending on who you are playing against. This automatically leads to variety in stage choices.
I wonder if a good solution would be to add a “competitive mode” toggle that removes distracting background elements and applies a grid to the floor while still allowing for visual variety, similar to how Smash’s Battlefield and Omega versions of stages.
@@heardofrvb When you're actually playing the game its shockingly easy to let the background just fade away completely as if it's not even there. I don't even remember what the background of FD looks like in Ultimate, all I remember is it being black and vaguely purple.
I agree, I have a friend who gets distracted by it and got me to actually pay attention to it for a game, and it cycles through so many backgrounds and effects
Super Smash Bros. has this issue as well. Since competitive play is an afterthought at best, a lot of stages can cause problems in competitive play. This leads to stuff like Dreamland being the only legal stage in the first game, "no items, Fox only, Final Destination" (which is a meme but it had to have come from somewhere), and basically every match in the fourth game taking place on Smashville or Town and City. With the increase of viable stages in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, the competitive community used the extra freedom to tighten their views on what is acceptable for competitive play. Combine this with a hazard toggle that is too time consuming to turn on and off, and the fact that a lot of the viable stages favor similar characters and you get a stage list that's super static, and kinda disappointing in terms of size. To make matters worse, the vast majority of matches take place on Pokémon Stadium 2 and despite having 33 music tracks, the song is almost always Battle! (Steven), Battle! (Trainer) - Pokémon Sun / Pokémon Moon, The Battle at the Summit!, Battle! (Lorekeeper Zinnia), or Battle! (Gladion). All of these songs have been seared into my brain and I don't even watch that many tournaments. When it's not Pokémon Stadium 2, it's usually Battlefield, Smashville, or Small Battlefield. I'm not entirely sure what the exact reason for this is, but it is annoying as a viewer. Also, I've seen some comments about the Battlefield and Ω stages, and I'm not entirely sure why they went unused even before Steve's inclusion, but there are problems I recognize: -Copyright. If the stage is owned by a company that goes after people for using their music in any capacity, it can pose a problem. -A lot of these stages *still* aren't the same as Battlefield and Final Destination, as some flatten the Z-axis, causing hitboxes to act weirdly sometimes, and some of them lack star and/or screen K.O.s, which is much less impactful, but still a thing. -These stages yield the same materials as the originals for Steve for the purposes of parity, but the devs forgot to make it so that he uses the same tools for the same reason. This matters because of his durability mechanic: It's better for the Steve player when Mining has its own durability than when Mining uses the durability of his tilts and/or aerials. -Some stages are too dark, too distracting, cause motion sickness, etc, though if the other issues weren't present I feel you could just make sure both players approve on any given option.
Smash suffers the worst of tournament play Lime melee is considering the god tier of competitive smash but man final destination sucks Its dark and bland and its cool for a final boss but for the only legal stage it sucks
How about developers make stages that aren't laggy or fit with what game they're playing? It doesn't matter if there is a training stage or not, high level players will always pick the same handful of stages that are visable and stable.
@@mitzi3262 High level players also choose the most boring stages imagineable. I know its a pretty hot take to say but it's kinda true. It makes sense for games like UMVC3 and Killer Instinct but fuck for games like KOFXV and SFV pick something fucking else. It's just plain boring to see white spreadsheets everywhere instead of actual stages. Show me cool details in the background, people cheering, a damn subway even pass by just something.
This was a really cool video, as someone who plays fighting games casually, I always wondered why people played on the grid. I just thought it was because the backgrounds can be distracting, it was cool to learn more about it.
Yeah, but most of the matches I'm playing are in the desert and I have the thing on random, but most people just have that one selected because it's the clearest one.
Honestly, I think Devs can take a note from KI and MKX by making their training stage appealing. You can still have it as a grid, but ADD stuff to it. Changing backgrounds, simulations, anything that doesn't remind viewers that they're looking at essentially a gray background with squares.
Introducing 'Training Mode' when selecting stages. When 'Training Mode' is selected all stages will have a grid and have a monocolor filter applied to it. This option is on by default for Street Fighter 6.
A fix: -Ban training stage in tournaments -give an option to turn off training stage as an option online -have simplified versions of stages like smash does with final destination variants of stages
In my opinion TvC has my favorite Training Room stage because it just has a good amount of personality with it being all worn down and dirty compared to SF4
My two cents for level design: -You can have the same spacing-visual-helper with a good tile or plank texture on the ground (Like, make a plank or tile the same space-unit of say half a meter across all stages) -You can make the first two meters or so from the ground up be not to busy visually, and then go nuts above that (above the players) so as to not visually clash with the characters -further visual tricks like having the foreground (characters) more saturated than the background to help them pop out more (black outline with cell shaded graphics helps too) Anyone else have ideas? :)
Most of the time when watching Japanese tournaments, it seems a lot rarer to see training stage versus basically every game in NA being training stage or near it.
If people are distracted, it only means ONE thing: They're focusing on EVERYTHING BUT PLAYING THE GAME. Distractions are an issue on the player's behalf, NOT the developer's. You don't get mad at the birds that fly across your windscreen during a Touring Car/Stock Car race, you get mad at yourself for looking elsewhere and losing a position during the race or time during a qualifying session.
@@launchbase4944 You and I don't have to be professional race car drivers to own up to your own distractions and errors and my distractions and errors. The same applies here. Learn to own up to it like everyone else.
I love how you look at things from the big picture. Always bringing great discussions to the table, and I agree, I would like more stage variety in tourneys as well.
I think capcom's end solution was actually pretty great. A mod that makes the stage whatever Capcom wants it to be while still letting the players have the grid that they're used to. The spectator experience is the last thing a competitive player has on their mind when they're playing, and it shouldn't be their job to pick stages people like.
Glad to see I'm not the only one who hates training stages. Ever since they were introduced it felt like they drained some important aspects of fighting games
I still don't understand how the devs haven't caught on and tried to get more clever about meeting in the middle with this issue and provide spacing tools for the players within the level design. Like give tiled floors a large checkerboard pattern, if the stage is a street then have them fight on a painted crosswalk, utilizing very evenly spaced elements in the background like a line of soldiers or something. Unless stage metas like Max mentioned with Tekken 7 become a thing, there's always going to be that one 'optimal' stage in every game that ends up being the stage we see in every competitive match.
They really should do a ‘potato mode’ for maps, where it’s get rids of any unnecessary and distracting details, only keeping the main and overall aesthetic of the game. Like with that Axl map, just take away all the npcs and moving effects. Maybe just leave the boat sitting there.
@@darienb1127 Street fighter 5 is nearly a 7 year old fucking game, if you cant get a 250 dollar gpu to run these extremely easy to run games you gotta downsize on your expectations and not expect the majority of people to come DOWN to your level. Its entitled as fuck
@@MrLolMachine11 @Pusshî Yeah, your right. Not every game needs to be playable for everyone. But a lot of people brought up a similar idea and it could genuinely work. I'm pretty sure Skullgirls does something like this already. So maybe while the rest of us are trying to have a geunine discussion, you can learn to not just say "get better specs lol" and actually add try adding something the conversation instead.
I hate this too, but in my experience as a south american(argentina), training stage in most of this games is the only one that works without issues online. Sometimes it means that "the grid" is the only stage you won't get lag.
The training stage is as mention, to train and practice your character, NOT for tournamemt usage. And look I get as to why players used them mostly for online matches but time after time again its boring to watch matches on them and doesn't bring in the hype.
One Huge Issue with Tekken is actually that the volcanic rim stage makes it extremely difficult to see for some players with a certain type of colourblindness
I mean when devs fuck frame rate for any other stages other than grid they dont really give players who want the best experience a choice. Literally Max's last sentence, you cant blame the players.
Maybe as a "simulation" type thing? "You've done well so far, Cammy. However, to complete your training, you must face the partner you trained alongside, and whoever remains victorious shall move on."
My favorite stages are the various "boat/train rides" in different KoF games. (Ex: Boss Team's Stage in '96, Chinese Gondola in '98, Kusanagi's Stage in the home console version of 2003, Terry's Train in XIV, etc.) It's so sad we'll likely never get moving stages back in a modern fighting game. (At least not ones that run at a fixes 60fps.)
Be nice if they gave the training room some personality instead of grey square room. Make it something else but still gives it the same measurement function. Make a gym or a dojo with something as a grid in the background/ floor, tldr just make something visually appealing but they can serve the same function.
I blame the birth of "eSports" and people becoming obsessed with the competitive aspect of gaming. It's no longer about fun, but about winning. Thus training stages become the "go to" for every players sessions. I honestly can go my whole life without ever seeing a training stage again
I feel like the easiest solution for this would be for Capcom to just allow players to toggle off background visuals when picking the stage, kind of like how Smash Ultimate does it. Regular version of a stage can have people dancing and cheering in the background, but a competitive mode would remove those things
@@ravenfrancis1476 I think it would still help. There are a lot of ways to still make a map interesting while keeping it simple. A lot of Tekken's maps are pretty simple, but they still do a good job. One of my favorite stage aesthetics is the tall grass field with the wind blowing through it. Super simple, but damn is it effective. The main thing is seeing ANYTHING other than training by this point.
@@darienb1127 Right, but I don't go to fighting games for beautiful minimalism, I go to fighting games for over-the-top flashiness that borders on eye strain. There's only so many times you can see "empty field but green this time" or "empty field but red" or "empty field but vaguely industrial" before it just gets as old as the training grid has done. As someone who's played both Street Fighter 4 and Tekken 7, outside of the training stage I genuinely liked the stages in SF4 more than I ever did T7 because they were more visually interesting to me. Hell, I could probably describe the former in specific detail if I thought hard enough, but I'm genuinely struggling to remember any distinct stage in Tekken 7 outside of the volcano.
@@darienb1127 I'm not yelling, I'm just pointing out that your 'solutions' are just re-flavors of the same problem. Trust me, as someone who's played Ghost of Tsushima, beautiful sunlit fields of grass with a gentle breeze rustling them starts to get old after it's all you see for an hour lol.
They should really make a specific tournament feature where the players can play on the grid fighting stage but to the audience can see a totally different map, like an exclusive tournament stage where production values are like to the roof while not compromising the competitive fidelity to the players and entertainment value to the audience
@@mistery8363 I'm guessing (theoratically) that it's just characters on a plane field, it's like swapping out the background in photoshop. Nothing in SFV is really custom in terms of playing field, the only thing could be borders on where the stage ends but it's most likely universal. Swap the assets and boom that way?
It's like you say, stage training is for training only, it should never be selectable outside of training. On the other hand, sometimes the developers give too much importance to the scenarios, but if they do not affect the gameplay in a positive way like what you mention with Tekken, in fighting games, especially in 2.5D we can't appreciate the scenarios as in adventure games for example. The first 3D fighting games had only the floor and the skydome and nothing else, maybe some 2D animation in the background, others like Soul Calibur did have some objects but they didn't affect the performance of the games just to make them look more beautiful.
I stream a range of fighting games on Twitch and one of the things that keeps casual viewers interested is variety. The FGC hardcores sometimes stick their heads in the sand and expect sales to come from the metagame when most people just want to see what the game looks like. Max hit the nail on the head with Tekken 7 as well, I main Asuka and her standard grab on the temple stage automatically breaks the floor. When I play there, I will bait the front throw (since apparently barely any players tech throws) to get that easy bound combo off and that's proper metagame that still engages the viewer. I hate MK11 as a game. I think it's garbage, but it never is visually boring because you're never allowed to manually select a generic training stage (even on ranked, stage select is randomized). If I'm playing Street Fighter 4 online, I NEVER pick training stage and most other people in rank ONLY pick training stage. It starts feeling like Groundhog's Day when you pick your main and see the same 5 characters in the same stage for 2 hours. Tekken 7 and before Tekken 3 sold well because it knew how to catch the masses, vivid graphics, snappy gameplay and tons of music. No one outside of the diehard fans care about training stage, footsies, metagame or flowcharts.
SF6 seems to be going in a good direction with their stages. They have desaturated the background a lot more than previous games. This helps make the characters stand out better.
Killer Instinct stays winning by not letting you pick training stage at all. Truly the best QOL option. Praise be to Double Helix and Iron Galaxy (Even though y'all play on Forgotten Grotto most of the time anyway)
@@haydenfisher1387 I should have also added in that Iron Galaxy, to their absolute credit, recognized that some stages were too dark which made reading the game difficult if a character had a dark costume. They did a total lighting overhaul on every stage in the game to not just make the game look better, but made it much easier to read. The lighting difference on some stages like Sadira's stage were hugely dramatic. Granted, players will gravitate to the most well lit stage so either Thunder or Aganos' stage are the go to (Which surprises me because I'd argue the most well lit stage in the game is Arbiters stage because it is super bright. A lot going on in the background though). But there's no real "I can't see shit. This stinks" stage since Season 2.
I thought Geometric Plane was T7's training stage. Anyway, I think what might possibly help is if the Training Stage has its own VS mode version. In Rivals of Aether, there's a training stage, and then the VS mode version (which is an alt of Endless Abyss). That being said, both Tekken 7 and Smash Bros-style fighting games is that stage choice is more of an important part because their layouts can determine matchups sometimes. So it might not be the best fix for the more traditional fighters.
I agree. People are running the training stages all day in games that can clearly run every stage at 60FPS without issue. This seems to be less of an issue in Tekken since the stages are part of the gameplay. Hopefully SF6 does what KI does and removes these grid stages from competitive game modes
I remember seeing Final Destination on Smash over and over and over again. Now in Smash it makes sense, as the stages vary way too differently from stage to stage, but I feel like that's where it first started being a thing. In the days of MVC2 we would get to see all sorts of absolutely beautiful stages even in finals matches.
Final destination is actually a bad stage for smash because platforms are necessary because of how characters are designed and balanced Kazuya and Steve demolish on FD due to kazuya’s burst combos on the ground and Steve’s blocks let him block camp with no way to get to him safely Battlefield is the most balanced stage for competition
I remember a moment of interest and confusion when, after completing a tutorial for a fighting game I can no longer remember, I unlocked the training stage as a stage to select. After that I just didn't think about it.
[if anyone reads this in its entirety, thank you, I know its long and Im sorry lol] Im a casual spectator of competitive fighting games. I love them and watch the competitive scene, thats why Im here in Max channel - and others -, but definitely not as hardcore into it as other people. I have to say, from experience, the use of training stage in competitive matches or finals has never bothered me, nor made me think "this is a huge issue!"; because, when watching a tournament, for me the focus of entertainment was never the background, but the players. I wanted to see what the so-called "best in the world" were capable of doing, demonstrate what their characters can do and just get amazed by crazy combos, reactions, comeback moments, and heck even the celebrations after a tight or final match that show us their feelings; some cry, some scream, I love it. In a tournament scenario, to me, what makes a fighting game entertaining to see are the top players, yes the background can be "cute" or "beautiful", but Im almost never focusing on it. The variety I look up for is the variety in matches, characters and fighting styles (which is not that common, sadly), rather than stages. Now this feeling migh have its origin in the fact that Im not the biggest competitive fg spectator in the world, and that could explain why someone who was seen A LOT of matches would need to see different stages in order to enjoy the show. But I think both sides are equally important, because both the casual side (which will be always bigger) and hardcore side are part of the target audience of the game (potential customers); and of course, a good part of the casual side might also want to see beautiful stages, animations, characters and such. In other things, I also think that if one of the reasons to why they only choose one stage is because the rest dont work properly... then fix them! That shouldnt be a factor. Finally, if the competitive players like the training stage because of its utility reasons, Im good with that! I dont focus on the stage, if they use it to become even better, thats great, I think thats the case with a lot of other people as well. Because, yes, Max is complaining about them in the video, and I've seen other people echo what he says (including content creators), but I've also seen a lot of people, both casuals and competitive players, that use it and have never say a word about it, or if they have, not in a serious way. Maybe they forgot to complain about it? it could be; maybe they dont really care that much? also could be true. So, I think, depending on which side of the argument you are, you will favor it to the detriment of its disadvantages, which is ok and could just mean its a subjective manner (in regards of how much we, as fighting game consumers, should care about the use of training stage in competitive matches). What I think could be done, as Max said in his video, is to just make new different training looking stages, to create the "variety" some expectators look for, and make everyone happy.
Not an issue in Tekken. The stages are so good that random select is the standard round 1 format, and players can switch either the character or the stage on loss.
It's funny how Max will say (multiple times) that it's largely the fault of the developers because the rest of the options either have issues with visual clarity or straight up create performance/lag problems. . . and people will STILL come to the comment section to get mad at the players.
They need to make lore accurate training stages. Instead of being “the grid” have it be a gym or a standard boxing ring. In Fighterz for example it could be the gravity chamber or hyperbolic time chamber. Instead of a generic stage have it make sense.
in Street Fighter, and KOF too, it could be a gym like those MMA fighters/boxers go to train before their fights.
it could even have a punching bag in Training Mode
nah the training stage is fine. it just shouldn't be the default for competitive formats.
@@kellz9972 or have both
MK9 and X had cool training stages
Yeah, it would be way better if the training stage of SF6 was in the same gym we see Luke or something like that.
Imagine a training stage in GG Strive: you break the wall, have the character travel a huge distance with the background being identical and then both characters land in the exact same spot 😂
my "training stage" in strive is the canyon, actually.
it looks super nice, and not too many distracting things. I wonder what people use for training
@@makogp747 random stage
Lmaoo
@@drowsyspook3455 nah
forest stage and illyria stage dont vibe with me so i dont pick them often
@@makogp747 o
Finally, *we address the Elephant in the Training Room*
Finally we address the square in the training stage
@@MegaKabutops777 finally, we address the grid-based box in the room
No the elephants are in Dhalsim's stage
@@wolfspider2034 Really, I never actually noticed 🙄😂
Where?
I definitely agree that its on devs, not players, to create incentives for stage variety. I think it's okay for there to be stages that lean into presentation over competitive viability (gotta have something for story mode after all) but situations like "I can't play on my main's home stage because it lags my console" are huge bummers on top of the reduced cool factor in competitive play. Letting intros rock on a real stage brings the hype in a way that a training stage can't match imo
I think it applies more to bad PC equipment/setup, consoles rarely lag on stages.
@@thomastellechea1760 Consoles had insane frames of lag for sf 5
@@thechugg4372 my slim ps4 doesn't have any frame drops at all, and slims are worse than normal PS4s
Ok then
I think Tekken did it best. Each stage is unique with its own layout, design and songs. The stages also provided interact-able elements players could take advantage of for either more damage or a more advantageous position and really rewarded those with awareness and adaptability.
The chat was ecstatic when Max said, “Fuck it! Let’s rant about it!”
The chat: “We’re doing it live!”
The Dmc reference to the news reporter?
@@shaiuken7150
The original reference is a news caster on Fox who got angry with technical difficulties and started yelling "We're doing it live!". DmC was referencing that.
@@lonewander6772 "Fuckin' thing sucks!". I love that clip so much
Ah, the infamous “Bill O’Reilly meltdown.”
As legally blind fighting game player I feel like a deviant having to default to the training stage because of its minimalist darker background that the characters don't blend into. Darker backgrounds are imperative for me to be able to play successfully. King of fighters 15 actually solved this issue for me by creating a contrast setting in display settings that allow you to literally mute the background into a darker background. Super helpful and awesome for grinding and practicing and playing online
I mean in all honesty, games should just have more accessibility options - hopefully features like that and more will become more common
Bro if ur legaly blind then how can u even see your character lol
@@Luke-nx1pb lol there are different tiers of blindness, legally blind doesn't necessarily mean complete blindness
@@Hammerhead0276 The more options the better just wish more people ask for that too. I love having so many different options in video games.
@@Luke-nx1pb under the right conditions it's easy. Like Max was saying Tekken 7 has a variety of backgrounds and the elements don't blend together very well or as much as Street fighter. Always a positive when I find a character with a light colored costume with a level stage with dark background. If I'm on a light background the character has to have a costume that is dark so that there is contrast. Actually pretty easy and I've even competed
I think if devs locked the training stage to “Training mode” and didn’t make it a selectable stage I’d be more okay with it.
My thoughts exactly.
Smash does that I think.
Honestly a better color scheme goes a long ass way. I love Grid Alternative solely based on that gray and blue color scheme
Yup, Smash does that
erase training stage
I think a viable solution could be to allow for stages to be played with a "tournament mode" setting for those wanting to hyper-optimize their playing conditions.
Basically just allow players to voluntarily remove parts of the fluff content in the background of a stage in order to reduce the amount of resources their system needs to render the scene.
This could be disabling background particle effects, certain background actors (ex. celebrating/hyped NPCS) / assets (cars, billboards, various props etc.) and other non-game impacting background content. By simply not rendering models and textures, the CPU and GPU will be taxed less and will be able to spend more resources rendering the rest of the scene, making it easier to achieve a stable high FPS.
As far as I know, nothing regarding the state of the graphical assets renderered on a scene is typically sent between clients on a networked game, so it should have zero impact on the gameplay itself (other than a slightly less spectacular looking game).
Of course, this type of solution still requires developers to respect a system's resources when designing levels, which seems to be the actual problem.
Developers for fighting games like Street Fighter and Smash work so hard to make these beautiful, amazing stages with awesome music and then no one plays on them because it’s “too distracting”😑
I absolutely hate the animal crossing stage. Never play it with my friends
Pretty sure most people play on the non-training stages so it's not accurate to say no one plays on them. It's mainly the higher tier/pro players that avoid them because they prefer to focus on the match/winning.
Some stages are unbelievable buggy to play online.
Ironically, some stage are banned in ultimate despite they’re legal in Melee or ban them because they’re too similar to legal stage so instead they let’s them on animal crossing or Pokémon stadium 80% of the time
In terms of Smash I also hate that stages are banned for looking "too similar to other stages" like Midgar looking too similar to Battlefield and whatnot, like what??
I'm glad you're talking about this because this has been one of the biggest problems for me with Street Fighter 5, you tune in to watch it and two hours of watching graph paper just makes you feel numb. Yes it is true there is value to just watching high level play, but when you're watching it in the fighting game equivalent of a sensory deprivation tank then everything loses all meaning and nothing matters.
My big fear though is that after years and years of players having to pick the Grid because it's the stage that the game runs the best on, I fear that even if Devs fixed that and now all stages ran perfectly and we could get undeniable proof that every stage ran the same, players would now be superstition to the point where they just believe the Grid still is the best stage.
You never really see people complain about League of Legends or DOTA2 always happening on the same stage. CSGO happens on the same handful of stages, Smash happens on the same handful of stages, PUBG and Fortnite happen on the same stage, Chess and Go happen on a grid, Scrabble happens on a grid, Tetris happens on a grid, Soccer and Football happen on a ruler. Top players in every game reduce their graphics settings to maximize stability and clarity. Why is this a problem for fighting games but no one else? What makes fighting game fans want players to play worse for visual flair?
@@grandsquanchrum Because the "same stages" in these games is not a blank "graph paper". The "same stage" in fighting games like SF is a fucking void, with nothing around and that's boring.
@@francesinhadopudim5870 I listed Chess and Go which happen on a grid. Tetris as well. The stage is only a little relevant to the gameplay in so far as giving points of reference for how far the wall is and the much hated, apparently, grid giving measurement marks for accurate footsies. These other games are more than a grid because their stages are relevant to the gameplay. Smash also tends to happen on samey voids with FD and Battlefield.
Honestly wanting to get rid of grid is the weirdest fucking thing for the fgc to get hung up on since it's not only a casual stance but an anti-competitive stance that doesn't effect casual appeal in any meaningful way.
Inb4 sf6 is only played in training stage despite the beautiful stages capcom made
@@grandsquanchrum Isn´t it weird that pro players with who knows how many hours in theyr respective game still need a grid to play theyr footsies properly? I´d argue that is bullshit and pros don´t need a crutch like that. So it obviously comes down to games technical performance.
In smash players wanted more stages forever. They can´t play on other stages because most stages have gimmicks or are not symmetric. That is why they mostly play in a void.
LoL, DOTA and the shooters you listed have way more interactivity with theyr maps. They dictate the way you play. It is more than just the background. Those maps are inticrately crafted. They can´t just be swapped out.
Board games like chess... holy shit I can´t believe you even bring up games like this in this conversation. They are BOARD games. Made to be played in real life with the board dictating the game... Ok even if we entertain the thought with chess it´s the same as any 2D Fighter. The board is always the same just like the stages in 2D fighting games. The width of the stage is always the same but the location where you play can be different. The same goes for sports. The field dictates a way to play. The location itself can be very different.
I get that in fighting games at any point you need to know where exactly on the stage you are. But for that you don´t need a grid. Let´s take Guilty Gear as an example. It doesn´t have a single grid stage and the stages aren´t symmetrical in theyr visuals. Still I always know where on the stage the players are thanks to the design of the stages and the camera. The reason why you don´t see forest in Strive is because it drops frames on lesser hardware. And by lesser I mean SERIOUSLY bad hardware. This game runs even on extremely outdated PCs how can the Playstation not keep up?
I love Mortal Kombat Xs training stage. Not only was it thematically different, in that it was like a simulation room, but you could have it as a vanilla stage or have it mimic the environmental interactions of every other stage in the game, so you didnt lose anything gameplay wise.
Then mkx has that laggy ass rain stage
@@mitzi3262 nobody picked it anyways bc it was dark af with random burst of ultra bright lightning.
@@mitzi3262 yeah I just left any fight online that was on that stage lmfao
@@mitzi3262 Goddamn lol I remember on RELEASE on PC that stage ran like complete ass (as did the rest of the game before it got fixed)
@@mitzi3262 Thats actually my favourite stage. MKX doesnt have alot of cool stages. They're mostly just okay. You're right that its laggy tho.
Honestly, the one grid-style training stage I actually really love is the one from Tatsunoko vs. Capcom. Probably because it's really the only one with any ounce of personality.
Marvel 2's training stage looks like TRON and I think it's badass
Cartoon network punch time explosion had a pretty slick training room, too.
this but the skullgirls one
@@SireForseti yeah any good training stage should have some spice to it like skullgirls or mvc2
Same, I like the music for it too
This is a really difficult situation, because it seems unless the stage has an novel gameplay element that is critical to strategy, i.e. Tekken, Virtua Fighter, DOA, Smash Bros, most serious players are always going to choose the most visually optimal stage in the game. The only real solution I can see is make the "training stage" equivalent look visually interesting in some unique way without impacting the function of a training stage. Or just make the training stage unselectable and ensuring all stages provide adequate visual clarity without being boring.
I don't think it's that tough. Sure, the hardcore grinders like it because it makes gauging their spacing a more exact science but very clearly these games can be played at a high level without using a literal ruler as your stage art. I think KI is a fine template for how to do things. Even though the community settled on a few less-distracting / more-optimized stages that are the de facto training room, the different options are at least visually distinct and allow for player preference to add some flavor to the stream. Leave the training room for training mode.
I literally do blame the players myself, honestly. Like, I kinda get it. And for Marvel 3 and SF 4 it really made sense. But a lot of these *do not* have the same issues as prevalently as those two games.
Maybe not all stages at least a handful, even 2 would be better than the training stage.
I think Tekken 7 provides a good example of how to do it better: the stages are beautiful and they are not too busy. I do find it cool when a stage has all of these background elements in it, but they could cut some of that out, maybe turn it into random variations of the stage, so that they are not all there together at the same time, and make it so that the background elements are simple and unobtrusive, like Tekken 7 has a chopper that will move a bit and shoot in one stage, maybe you'll get some lava splashes in another one, etc, minor animations.
Playing on stages like this is so immersion busting.
Like you got two combatants with intro dialogs that sometimes include special interactions, dressed up in garbs pertaining to their story and background and then they unwittingly always fight in a grid?
That's one of the reasons I like to watch Tekken 7 tournaments. The stage choice matters and we get to see strategy and variety on the stage choices. I wish more games would do that
Yes, catering to the hard-core audience keeps a franchise alive. But at least making it visually appealing so even a casual can glance at it and think "that looks neat, leet me see some more" is important to bring new players on or to fill the stands with spectators and make that franchise thrive.
I would argue any player that needs to play on training stage is not hard core or top level. Just boring as fuck.
@@votedbestjustin bro did you even watch the video. Theres obvious reasons why players pick the grid. The issue is defs put out these stages that make the game laggy af. The issue is the devs need to think about stage lag when making there stages not the players picking the most optimal stages
@@exiaR2x78 I agree that devs are very much at fault. I'm just saying that in hardwired tournements sold as an entertaing event it's also fair for crowds to not like the most boring stage and find it annoying when someone picks it or even completely bail if it's the permanent stage for a tournament. It's equal to only playing top tier characters or spamming the same stuff every round. They're within their rights to do it but there's no swag or style to it which, in my opinion, is the largest selling point of the FGC to newcomers. To each their own when playing themselves but international events shouldn't be slapped with a Grey coat of paint if they want to be taken seriously.
@@votedbestjustin I only really watch SFV tournaments actively and tekken here and there, the offline tournaments outside of S1 in SFV the grid was barely used and was actually banned at some point. The online tournaments is where the grid is mostly used and due to it being online its completely understandable why.
Havent followed much KOF but play it at locals and the game has some stages with big frame drops unfortunately
6:12 "You would think that the training stage could remain for ... Training"
Max bestowed the Truth upon us, and then ascended to eternal glory, in a beam of light.
"Training stage" in SF6 should be the boxing gym that Luke is in at the beginning of the new trailer
Grid's been confirmed to be come back through a leak.
Entirely on the devs. They need to have visual distinction and clarity on all environments and characters unless it's expressly a part of a characters design, and ensure the stages don't impact performance.
The train stage should be just that. THE TRAINING STAGE for offline usage
Nah, I like being able to play in the training stages. It always annoyed me when you couldn’t select them in other fighting games.
@@thedapperdolphin1590 so?
*SO* it should be allowed to be used like any other stage.
Just wish there was an option to disable it.
I wish they would allow training stage mods on console. That's one thing I really like about PC.
So you don't like having the option to play whatever stage you want?
My biggest fear when it comes to this is developers making the stages too bland to fix this issue. Some of my favorite fighting games stages are the huge, exorbitant ones (I don't play super competitively). I feel like a good balance would be to have stages of varying complexity. Have simpler stages like some kind of fighting ring or the dramatic field with grass blowing in the wind (fucking love those settings btw). And then you can have your super crazy stages with parades and stuff in the background. If devs did nothing by efficiency with stages, fighting games would lack a big element of charm since you can see big fighting game backgrounds all the way back in Street Fighter 2. Even if not every stage is usable, we would at least have SOMETHING. And maybe, just maybe, we can get rid of the purgatory that is the training stage.
Imo, old-school SNK stages (Samsho, The Last Blade, etc) are still some of the best in the industry. They weren't, for the most part, garish or particularly distracting, but they were still very nice to look at.
As a spectator, different stages also give different stories. When a moment happens on a specific stage, it’s built into it and makes it more memorable
Exactly. New York underground isn't one of the most iconic fighting game stages because it looks nice - it's also remembered for being the stage Moment 37 was played out on, there's a whole narrative regarding it. And you can't get those narratives when everyone always uses the same exact stage.
@@Skallva Facts! 💯
Not even just moments like that, but just even the "attitude" of a certain game. When you say games like SF2 or SF3: Third Strike, the backgrounds make you think of the feel of a game and what it's all about. With SF5, all you see is "grid." This makes the game feel super dry and only for technical players.
@@chaelmavik That’s why I really hope SF6 won’t have a Grid. That cool new street aesthetic and style will be lost.
@@bageltoo
Leaks confirmed grid is still in
This feels like another "The player will optimize the fun out of the game." kind of deal, maybe it would just be better to not have the featureless training stage be useable. Although it would probably result in people using the least intrusive stage.
I've said before, if they jazzed up a grid with changing colours, maybe painted it up with the new graffiti aesthetic, maybe neon lights, I think that would be sick.
Like sfxt did
Or just a classic stage... with stuff like the old days.... why did they try to fix something that wasn't broken?
The point of training stages looking like that is so you can easily measure distances by the squares on the ground and walls
Maybe like a special customizer for it where you can choose a color and maybe put stickers on it or something? That’d be something.
Like Tatsunoko vs Capcom
If only it had what Tekken have.
Every Tekken stage is different in sizes and whether it has wall or not. So the training stage "Geometric Plane" is rarely used because player has to take the size and shape to their advantage.
I did heard Capcom basically made a system in their CPT stream, that Grid is allowed but the viewers won't see Grid.
you can't really do that in a 2d fighter
@@launchbase4944 GG Strive has something similar tho?
I play a Mishima. The only training stage is Infinite Azure for us.
@@launchbase4944 explain mods
Another point for tekken is that in Tag 2, they actually did add in a "grid" training stage as a "special stage" that was selectable in practice and versus. But the stage uniquely contained every kind of stage extension mechanic: floor break, balcony break, and wall break. So it still carried the usual pros/cons that you would see in competitive player selections while also being a good go-to to practice combos and situations with all of those mechanics without having to flip between stages in most scenarios.
Yeah that stage was broke though lol. Tekken has geometric plane as a "grid" stage as well.
I can imagine stage variety being important for a lot of spectators. Aside from ensuring steady performance on all stages, devs should consider incorporating aspects of the "grid" stages into regular stages to make them usable for the same reasons. Furthermore, devs should either ensure no stage hurts visibility of characters and their moves, or they should create tournament versions that create more contrast between the fighters and the backgrounds (maybe by fading the backgrounds) and remove obstructions from the foreground as applicable. If they're concerned about the appearance of the games for spectators, then have another instance of the match that's going on being rendered with normal graphical settings on a separate machine.
I liked Tekken 7's training stage with all the geometry floating about, it was a walled stage instead of being an infinite one and smashing into the walls would cause glowy bits to break apart and scatter around, each stage had a different size and the variety is important for competition so you need to be familiar with all the stages, by doing that they made it so every stage was played.
Yes surprised he didn’t mention TEkken it was a very unique stage implementation
Isn't the T7 training stage Infinite Azure though?
Not to mention that with how each stage plays out also can benefit some characters like master raven where walls allow for max damage combos whereas open stages can punish her maximum output and can leave some options limited. It adds in a dynamic layer of potential for either crazy combos or being able to utilize the stage with mechanics like wall leaping over an attack to dodge. Just the small stuff
@@Lexicon865 or the dojo maps
@@Lexicon865 No well yeah, most pick infinite Azure to train on a infinite stage so it's the go-to infinite training stage.
I think there should be 2 versions of each stage, one regular with all the eye candy for the ones who can and want it and a second one with barely minimum elements on the background. Or options to disable those elements and maybe tweak the lightning for pvp matches and leave things as they should be for 1 player modes. Much as people tend to disable blur effects because they are too distracting, these should be options too.
Also, they can make every stage a training stage by activating a grid mode on the ground. Maybe not the most visual appealing thing, but if we are talking about competitions I think players would be happy to oblige instead of fighting every match on the grid stage.
All games are in 3d nowadays, even 2d games, so why not taking advantage of that?
It just solidfies that capcom needs to focus on the players not backgrounds, most sf levels are corny and filled w worthless dancers
Ye
@@BrocktaviusKingofNFC Agreed. It started with Street Fighter X Tekken, so many stages are filled with "look at me!!!" characters, and the trend continued to an extent with Street Fighter V. Jesus, the Lair of the 4 Kings was so dumb. It had this ominous music playing, while the stage was filled with wizards, pink ninjas, and goofy robots. So wacky!
As a casual fighting game fan, the thing that always made me roll my eyes when I got into an SF4 match online was when the announcer said the word "training stage". Like you, I made sure to mod that shit out of my game when I switched to the PC version.
I think there should be a "streaming mode" where you can play on training stage you want but chose to have other stages being shown for the people you're streaming. Capcom had it in the pro tour, but it only happened in that tournament, which feels like a waste
Thats a good idea. Both parties happpy.
So unnecessary
Unnecesary indeed. Are you gonna tell me that competitive players can't play in another stage that's not Training stage? It's like they are using "training wheels" to measure spacing ._.
It's like sure, you are the whatever game champion, but if you cannot play on another stage that's not Training Stage, are you really any good?
@@Elratauru of course they can
But you could also play basketball with a court with no visible markings and just have the player's guess. That will make the level of play much lower, so if you just prefer to watch worse gameplay, good for you
thats basically what they did with the Capcom Pro Tour tournaments for 5, so I really dont know wtf max is on about
I thought the training stages in MK9 and MKX were good. They weren't just a bland grid (yes mkx was a grid too but it had interesting monitor stuff in the background and interactables are also a thing).
Yes, I loved that about the MKX training stage.
The Training Room monitors in MKX would show stuff like frame data
What was the training stage in mk9?
@@dagoss1 a dojo like stage
I remember unlocking the concept art for the training stage in MKX. The devs stated that they wanted to add much more to the stage such as people training in the background, but they then felt that it took away the point of the stage, which is to train. Because of that, they scaled it back to a grid like training stage with the holographic interactibles.
DOA4 has always had my favorite training stage, the endless tatami floor and the black skybox with the music in the background was always memorable
big pet peeve of mine too. It’s almost as bad as top tiers being SO good that every top 5 goes to the same two or three characters.
Double F’s for when you get both training stage and finals being flooded with the only viable character lol
Agreed, honestly. And people whine when it's new games, but love old games and it suddenly doesn't matter there, even the same players in high level play. Devs just gotta remove training stage or only allow it in training mode. Enough is enough.
Reasons why I despise watching top tier matches in Melee, MvC2, etc. Granted, I completely understand why....you'd want the best possible chance to win cause that's why you're in a tourney......to win. But for me it's not as interesting.
Marth vs Falco only, no Items, the Grid
@@Artista_Frustrado SN.....OOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE LOL
I would say to make "training stage" a "training mode” instead which would overlay an adjustable opacity grid over the pre-existing stage of your choice (similar to how some games let you turn on visual hit and hurt boxes in training mode) but there would be no “blank void/grid room” as a selectable stage on it’s own.
As a viewer, the training stage makes each match feel the same and just makes the games look gray and uninteresting. Mix it up and make it fun! For players wanting to use the grid to help in neutral, I think that's weak. Learning their neutral on different stages (or regardless of stage) is its own skill. As for some stages slowing stuff down, yeah, that's on dev's to sort out.
Here’s an easy fix.
Make Training Stage locked to Training Mode.
That was easy.
The sfv Dojo stage they added years later is really cool the training stage should always be like that. And if you wanna do the grid stage make it customizable with colors and your favorite characters image in the background.
one thing i would like to note in tournaments, Training stage is the FIRST option in these games when you are at the stage select part of character select. some people just mash their way through this part so unconsciously they end up picking training stage.
i think setting the initial option of stage select to random would help a little bit. not entirely but would help
definitely dont set to random. Especially for competitive. Some stages can cause frame delays because they’re too intensive, for example destroyed namek on DBFZ has been proven to cause frame drops because of how much is going on in the background
Well, then the actual DELIBERATE DESIGN ASPECTS of the games are OPENLY encouraging training as the default. But can you really blame devs when console makers, in their paranoia over piracy, deny them the full console specs? Like, if you're literally going to make your consoles JUST powerful enough to not lag these games because cost matters, give devs the full specs. People mainly do fighters on consoles for consistency. Don't force it to be a bad consistency.
@@parcival3016 that's honestly on the devs accord to fix that, games like tekken and SC tourney standards dictate that first stage is always random, yet their games don't experience frame drops.
there are also other workaround ways that devs can do to fix that, if they cant accord frame drops one simple way is really just let players choose what stages will be on random and what isn't.
@@CarbonRollerCaco as it pertains to DBFZ specifically its a problem with the engine from what ive seen. Which i agree falls on the devs
Imagine being a level designer. Put in all the effort into colors, art, animation etc and to have players pick only graph paper training stage. I feel that this degrades the quality of the game, by not enjoying the complete game. Thanks, Max for covering this topic. I feel the same way.
Imagine designing laggy stages and bad netcode that forces players into using training
If I was a level designer I would make sure my pretty stage wasn't laggy so players in the know wouldn't dred playing on it
Welcome to every delevoper who makes game in a realistic artstyle these days. Its called diminishing returns and it has nothing to do with inarguably the most useful stage in fighting games.
@@Mubariz "Laggy stages", are you playing on a potato?
How about developers make stages that aren't laggy or fit with what game they're playing? It doesn't matter if there is a training stage or not, high level players will always pick the same handful of stages that are visable and stable.
The issues with some stages mentioned (frame drops etc.) are legit concerns that devs need to be better about.
But the player allergy to anything other than the most optimal conditions is kinda pathetic.
Any sport played outside has to deal with variable conditions. The players of such sports don't whine and only play on the days when the ambient temp is x, relative humidity y, and sun is in position z. If they did, they'd never get to play. So they just do their thing and adapt.
Ability to adapt to more than just your opponent is as much a part of sport as anything else.
Video games allow for the control of conditions to a degree which doesn't exist in any other sport. But the trade off is matches that are interchangeable and which sacrifice one of the biggest selling points of these games. No real world golf course is ever going to be as interesting as a fighting game stage.
Capcom's solution with SFV was pretty good. But I'd much rather see a situation where maps are variable from match to match and players have to get over their allergy to visual noise.
Me playing pyrrhon gill and if the opponent complains he's a bitch because he can't adapt
In terms of online play if you have a choice between a stage which will make the experience worse with more lag or a stage where there is less lag, your going to pick the stage with the less amount of lag. Comparing to real sports isnt really viable if weather conditions are bad enough a game will get called off even at professional level. In terms of offline play I only really follow SFV closely but the majority of the offline CPT tournaments ive watched they dont use the grind its random stage and top 8s are whatever that years CPT stage is. Watching CB idk why players went back to the grind, im guessing there was set up lag from some of the weird drops I saw which might have been why.
@@exiaR2x78 why do you call the grid stage the "grind"?
@@michaelmccoy1794 auto correct my guy
This is why I still like watching most 3D fighters like Soul Calibur or Tekken. If they still want to be optimal, fine, but at least they adapt to what's in front of them.
As a casual SF tournament spectator, i can just agree that this makes me leave the stream.
Imagine a movie, where the actors just act on a green screen in the back ...
Atmokiller at its best.
i am a tekken player, we luckily dont have this issue
100% will never watch a tournament on training stage. One of the reasons SFV tourneys are so boring
Same goes to DOA. We always pick random interactive stages which keeps the game alive. 🥹
Not a green screen but, Dogville
@@votedbestjustin I don't get that...are you watching the gameplay or the background?
I just started watching Maximilian videos and that intro scared the shit outa me upon just opening yt lmao. “LETS GO”
Training room always gave me the smash "Final destination no items fox only" vibes.
At least final destination got a sick ass background instead of grid.
@@Mister100Percent and some good ass music
exactly what i was thinking
@@Mister100Percent Totally agree, even got different visuals for each entry in the series. Was more thinking that there's so many more stages yet you see FD 90% of matches.
*I made a suggestion to Capcom, and tagged Maximilian on twitter, before he made this video. I suggested that they add graffiti that could be earned during single player or in other ways. PLEASE LIKE FOR HIM TO SEE IT.*
I'm brazilian, btw.
Graffiti could be used in the training stage, and whoever hosted the match could show their training stage, with their graffiti.
Coming from smash I admit it was a shock to see people being so picky with stages in other games, in Smash we ban a stage because it has some jank ass hazard that kills your at 0% or because it makes running away too easy, or it removes offstage interaction, or it's just too inconvenient for most of the cast to navigate, etc.
Never picking Daily Bugle because the background moves feels like such a minor thing to care about lol
This happens in smash too. People keep the sephiroth stage and Hollow Bastion banned because "Background moves, it makes me sick" which I find silly.
@@janmarcoperezbatres2203 Especially when they play Final Destination
That Banjo Kazooie map literally fucks me up 😂 feels like car sickness whem it spins.
I mean to be fair, the sephiroth one literally has hell fire casually happening back there. I remember finding the final destination for smash 4 to be so annoying for that very reason. A stage having blinding flashes of light is a no from me
Smash has a ton of stages, so it's not a problem banning one stage.
The problem is that the stage backgrounds can blend with the effect attacks and players who aren't used to a moving background can get them dizzy
I love the way that ttt2 and t7 does it, the training stages are special buttons you have to press on stage select. this mean the rules are you can only select stages from the available list in front of you.
Tatsunoko VS Capcom and Capcom VS SNK 2 (the actual first grid stage I remember personally) both have great looking training stages with visual appeal.
I'd still hate for those to be the only stages people ever pick, but if ALL training stages did something unique like that, it wouldn't be so bad.
I think the competitive over usage of the grid started when Daigo requested it to be used when Poongko eliminated him in Evo 2011
I used to like SF4's training stage because of the music, but I also got bored with Training Stage tournament finals REALLY FAST. Shout outs to Overpass for being the best stage in Street Fighter IV that almost never got used in finals.
*laughs in tekken *
Its important for non tekken people to understand a big part of the stages in tekken is it plays in into certain characters style. Walls, breakaway floors... Some characters thrive on it. So you essentially counter pick a stage sometimes depending on who you are playing against. This automatically leads to variety in stage choices.
I wonder if a good solution would be to add a “competitive mode” toggle that removes distracting background elements and applies a grid to the floor while still allowing for visual variety, similar to how Smash’s Battlefield and Omega versions of stages.
This is the best option imo, keeps everyone at least somewhat happy
I think that'd be neat. maybe fold it into "tournament modes" some games have
I always wonder how the Smash players don't get distracted by the visual insanity of Final Destination.
@@heardofrvb When you're actually playing the game its shockingly easy to let the background just fade away completely as if it's not even there. I don't even remember what the background of FD looks like in Ultimate, all I remember is it being black and vaguely purple.
I agree, I have a friend who gets distracted by it and got me to actually pay attention to it for a game, and it cycles through so many backgrounds and effects
Super Smash Bros. has this issue as well. Since competitive play is an afterthought at best, a lot of stages can cause problems in competitive play. This leads to stuff like Dreamland being the only legal stage in the first game, "no items, Fox only, Final Destination" (which is a meme but it had to have come from somewhere), and basically every match in the fourth game taking place on Smashville or Town and City.
With the increase of viable stages in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, the competitive community used the extra freedom to tighten their views on what is acceptable for competitive play. Combine this with a hazard toggle that is too time consuming to turn on and off, and the fact that a lot of the viable stages favor similar characters and you get a stage list that's super static, and kinda disappointing in terms of size. To make matters worse, the vast majority of matches take place on Pokémon Stadium 2 and despite having 33 music tracks, the song is almost always Battle! (Steven), Battle! (Trainer) - Pokémon Sun / Pokémon Moon, The Battle at the Summit!, Battle! (Lorekeeper Zinnia), or Battle! (Gladion). All of these songs have been seared into my brain and I don't even watch that many tournaments. When it's not Pokémon Stadium 2, it's usually Battlefield, Smashville, or Small Battlefield. I'm not entirely sure what the exact reason for this is, but it is annoying as a viewer.
Also, I've seen some comments about the Battlefield and Ω stages, and I'm not entirely sure why they went unused even before Steve's inclusion, but there are problems I recognize:
-Copyright. If the stage is owned by a company that goes after people for using their music in any capacity, it can pose a problem.
-A lot of these stages *still* aren't the same as Battlefield and Final Destination, as some flatten the Z-axis, causing hitboxes to act weirdly sometimes, and some of them lack star and/or screen K.O.s, which is much less impactful, but still a thing.
-These stages yield the same materials as the originals for Steve for the purposes of parity, but the devs forgot to make it so that he uses the same tools for the same reason. This matters because of his durability mechanic: It's better for the Steve player when Mining has its own durability than when Mining uses the durability of his tilts and/or aerials.
-Some stages are too dark, too distracting, cause motion sickness, etc, though if the other issues weren't present I feel you could just make sure both players approve on any given option.
Smash suffers the worst of tournament play
Lime melee is considering the god tier of competitive smash but man final destination sucks
Its dark and bland and its cool for a final boss but for the only legal stage it sucks
@@valletas good thing it's not even close to the only legal stage and never has been or ever will be
Also star KO’s can effect a match
Specifically a star KO ensures puff isn’t a sitting duck after a rest kill
I'm with you, Max! I'm a proud training stage hater, get that shit out of my fighting games
It's so boring to watch as well. I get it, it helps playing the game as you know where your character is but dude just get some green in your life
How about developers make stages that aren't laggy or fit with what game they're playing? It doesn't matter if there is a training stage or not, high level players will always pick the same handful of stages that are visable and stable.
Agreed Fuck any tournament with training stage.
@@mitzi3262 High level players also choose the most boring stages imagineable. I know its a pretty hot take to say but it's kinda true.
It makes sense for games like UMVC3 and Killer Instinct but fuck for games like KOFXV and SFV pick something fucking else. It's just plain boring to see white spreadsheets everywhere instead of actual stages. Show me cool details in the background, people cheering, a damn subway even pass by just something.
This was a really cool video, as someone who plays fighting games casually, I always wondered why people played on the grid. I just thought it was because the backgrounds can be distracting, it was cool to learn more about it.
I’m so glad Strive doesn’t have a training stage. Even the least detailed stage is beautiful and fantastic to play on.
Yeah, but most of the matches I'm playing are in the desert and I have the thing on random, but most people just have that one selected because it's the clearest one.
@@joacoguerrero98 unless you're one of those people who play on the snow stage with a very white palette
@@joacoguerrero98 atleast its pleasent to look at and some of the transitions via screenbreaks are beautiful
Honestly, I think Devs can take a note from KI and MKX by making their training stage appealing. You can still have it as a grid, but ADD stuff to it. Changing backgrounds, simulations, anything that doesn't remind viewers that they're looking at essentially a gray background with squares.
Introducing 'Training Mode' when selecting stages. When 'Training Mode' is selected all stages will have a grid and have a monocolor filter applied to it.
This option is on by default for Street Fighter 6.
A fix:
-Ban training stage in tournaments
-give an option to turn off training stage as an option online
-have simplified versions of stages like smash does with final destination variants of stages
You know if a TO banned the training stage, half the playerbase's fight or flight insincts would activate
In my opinion TvC has my favorite Training Room stage because it just has a good amount of personality with it being all worn down and dirty compared to SF4
My two cents for level design:
-You can have the same spacing-visual-helper with a good tile or plank texture on the ground (Like, make a plank or tile the same space-unit of say half a meter across all stages)
-You can make the first two meters or so from the ground up be not to busy visually, and then go nuts above that (above the players) so as to not visually clash with the characters
-further visual tricks like having the foreground (characters) more saturated than the background to help them pop out more (black outline with cell shaded graphics helps too)
Anyone else have ideas? :)
Most of the time when watching Japanese tournaments, it seems a lot rarer to see training stage versus basically every game in NA being training stage or near it.
I love it when max goes on these fighting game rants/tangents.
If people are distracted, it only means ONE thing: They're focusing on EVERYTHING BUT PLAYING THE GAME. Distractions are an issue on the player's behalf, NOT the developer's. You don't get mad at the birds that fly across your windscreen during a Touring Car/Stock Car race, you get mad at yourself for looking elsewhere and losing a position during the race or time during a qualifying session.
said like someone who doesn't compete honestly
@@launchbase4944 You and I don't have to be professional race car drivers to own up to your own distractions and errors and my distractions and errors. The same applies here. Learn to own up to it like everyone else.
Was just literally talking about this with a friend - glad you brought it up !
I love how you look at things from the big picture. Always bringing great discussions to the table, and I agree, I would like more stage variety in tourneys as well.
I think capcom's end solution was actually pretty great. A mod that makes the stage whatever Capcom wants it to be while still letting the players have the grid that they're used to. The spectator experience is the last thing a competitive player has on their mind when they're playing, and it shouldn't be their job to pick stages people like.
Glad to see I'm not the only one who hates training stages. Ever since they were introduced it felt like they drained some important aspects of fighting games
What aspects? A background?
@@grepgroup8421 precisely
What "important aspects" does it drain exactly?
@@robertwoods3871 you should be able to know your spacing without needing a literal fucking grid lol
In Tekken every single stage is fair game and some stages LEGITIMATELY favor some characters over others. What's SF's excuse?
I still don't understand how the devs haven't caught on and tried to get more clever about meeting in the middle with this issue and provide spacing tools for the players within the level design. Like give tiled floors a large checkerboard pattern, if the stage is a street then have them fight on a painted crosswalk, utilizing very evenly spaced elements in the background like a line of soldiers or something. Unless stage metas like Max mentioned with Tekken 7 become a thing, there's always going to be that one 'optimal' stage in every game that ends up being the stage we see in every competitive match.
They really should do a ‘potato mode’ for maps, where it’s get rids of any unnecessary and distracting details, only keeping the main and overall aesthetic of the game.
Like with that Axl map, just take away all the npcs and moving effects. Maybe just leave the boat sitting there.
You might as well just use Training Stage then
Dude just get a better PC or invest in a console at this point, Jesus christ
@@MrLolMachine11 Yeah, and some of us don't have the fucking money to do that.
@@darienb1127 Street fighter 5 is nearly a 7 year old fucking game, if you cant get a 250 dollar gpu to run these extremely easy to run games you gotta downsize on your expectations and not expect the majority of people to come DOWN to your level. Its entitled as fuck
@@MrLolMachine11 @Pusshî Yeah, your right. Not every game needs to be playable for everyone. But a lot of people brought up a similar idea and it could genuinely work. I'm pretty sure Skullgirls does something like this already. So maybe while the rest of us are trying to have a geunine discussion, you can learn to not just say "get better specs lol" and actually add try adding something the conversation instead.
I hate this too, but in my experience as a south american(argentina), training stage in most of this games is the only one that works without issues online. Sometimes it means that "the grid" is the only stage you won't get lag.
The training stage is as mention, to train and practice your character, NOT for tournamemt usage. And look I get as to why players used them mostly for online matches but time after time again its boring to watch matches on them and doesn't bring in the hype.
One Huge Issue with Tekken is actually that the volcanic rim stage makes it extremely difficult to see for some players with a certain type of colourblindness
FGC stop picking the most boring fucking stages for standard tournament play challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
I mean when devs fuck frame rate for any other stages other than grid they dont really give players who want the best experience a choice. Literally Max's last sentence, you cant blame the players.
Max is the only content creator I would watch rant about the TRAINING stage, of all things, and it be entertaining and informative and fun. Lol
Imagine the grid stage was actually a location when you playing arcade mode.
it is in alex's sfv story :)
Maybe as a "simulation" type thing?
"You've done well so far, Cammy. However, to complete your training, you must face the partner you trained alongside, and whoever remains victorious shall move on."
My favorite stages are the various "boat/train rides" in different KoF games. (Ex: Boss Team's Stage in '96, Chinese Gondola in '98, Kusanagi's Stage in the home console version of 2003, Terry's Train in XIV, etc.)
It's so sad we'll likely never get moving stages back in a modern fighting game. (At least not ones that run at a fixes 60fps.)
Be nice if they gave the training room some personality instead of grey square room.
Make it something else but still gives it the same measurement function.
Make a gym or a dojo with something as a grid in the background/ floor,
tldr just make something visually appealing but they can serve the same function.
Exactly. Grid floor if you must but put it in a gym/dojo.
I blame the birth of "eSports" and people becoming obsessed with the competitive aspect of gaming. It's no longer about fun, but about winning.
Thus training stages become the "go to" for every players sessions. I honestly can go my whole life without ever seeing a training stage again
THIS.....THIS.....THANK YOU!!!!
I feel like the easiest solution for this would be for Capcom to just allow players to toggle off background visuals when picking the stage, kind of like how Smash Ultimate does it. Regular version of a stage can have people dancing and cheering in the background, but a competitive mode would remove those things
But that doesn't really fix the problem of these stages being fucking boring to look at.
@@ravenfrancis1476 I think it would still help. There are a lot of ways to still make a map interesting while keeping it simple. A lot of Tekken's maps are pretty simple, but they still do a good job. One of my favorite stage aesthetics is the tall grass field with the wind blowing through it. Super simple, but damn is it effective. The main thing is seeing ANYTHING other than training by this point.
@@darienb1127 Right, but I don't go to fighting games for beautiful minimalism, I go to fighting games for over-the-top flashiness that borders on eye strain. There's only so many times you can see "empty field but green this time" or "empty field but red" or "empty field but vaguely industrial" before it just gets as old as the training grid has done. As someone who's played both Street Fighter 4 and Tekken 7, outside of the training stage I genuinely liked the stages in SF4 more than I ever did T7 because they were more visually interesting to me. Hell, I could probably describe the former in specific detail if I thought hard enough, but I'm genuinely struggling to remember any distinct stage in Tekken 7 outside of the volcano.
@@ravenfrancis1476 Hey, we were just trying to shoot ideas for a potential fix. No need to yell at us.
@@darienb1127 I'm not yelling, I'm just pointing out that your 'solutions' are just re-flavors of the same problem. Trust me, as someone who's played Ghost of Tsushima, beautiful sunlit fields of grass with a gentle breeze rustling them starts to get old after it's all you see for an hour lol.
They should really make a specific tournament feature where the players can play on the grid fighting stage but to the audience can see a totally different map, like an exclusive tournament stage where production values are like to the roof while not compromising the competitive fidelity to the players and entertainment value to the audience
That...is actually an interesting proposal.
how would it work tho?
@@mistery8363 I'm guessing (theoratically) that it's just characters on a plane field, it's like swapping out the background in photoshop. Nothing in SFV is really custom in terms of playing field, the only thing could be borders on where the stage ends but it's most likely universal.
Swap the assets and boom that way?
Same, I wish they'd either just get rid of it, spruce it up to be at least MKX level, or ban it from tournament
It's like you say, stage training is for training only, it should never be selectable outside of training.
On the other hand, sometimes the developers give too much importance to the scenarios, but if they do not affect the gameplay in a positive way like what you mention with Tekken, in fighting games, especially in 2.5D we can't appreciate the scenarios as in adventure games for example. The first 3D fighting games had only the floor and the skydome and nothing else, maybe some 2D animation in the background, others like Soul Calibur did have some objects but they didn't affect the performance of the games just to make them look more beautiful.
Me too. Screw training stage!
I stream a range of fighting games on Twitch and one of the things that keeps casual viewers interested is variety. The FGC hardcores sometimes stick their heads in the sand and expect sales to come from the metagame when most people just want to see what the game looks like. Max hit the nail on the head with Tekken 7 as well, I main Asuka and her standard grab on the temple stage automatically breaks the floor. When I play there, I will bait the front throw (since apparently barely any players tech throws) to get that easy bound combo off and that's proper metagame that still engages the viewer. I hate MK11 as a game. I think it's garbage, but it never is visually boring because you're never allowed to manually select a generic training stage (even on ranked, stage select is randomized). If I'm playing Street Fighter 4 online, I NEVER pick training stage and most other people in rank ONLY pick training stage. It starts feeling like Groundhog's Day when you pick your main and see the same 5 characters in the same stage for 2 hours.
Tekken 7 and before Tekken 3 sold well because it knew how to catch the masses, vivid graphics, snappy gameplay and tons of music.
No one outside of the diehard fans care about training stage, footsies, metagame or flowcharts.
Could you imagine if Evo moment 37 was on a grid stage, scary idea
SF6 seems to be going in a good direction with their stages. They have desaturated the background a lot more than previous games. This helps make the characters stand out better.
Killer Instinct stays winning by not letting you pick training stage at all. Truly the best QOL option. Praise be to Double Helix and Iron Galaxy (Even though y'all play on Forgotten Grotto most of the time anyway)
That Aganos theme tho
I mean its a good stage and has some well lit parts but I see what you mean
@@haydenfisher1387 I should have also added in that Iron Galaxy, to their absolute credit, recognized that some stages were too dark which made reading the game difficult if a character had a dark costume. They did a total lighting overhaul on every stage in the game to not just make the game look better, but made it much easier to read. The lighting difference on some stages like Sadira's stage were hugely dramatic. Granted, players will gravitate to the most well lit stage so either Thunder or Aganos' stage are the go to (Which surprises me because I'd argue the most well lit stage in the game is Arbiters stage because it is super bright. A lot going on in the background though). But there's no real "I can't see shit. This stinks" stage since Season 2.
They shouldn't have gave aganos such a banger then
I thought Geometric Plane was T7's training stage.
Anyway, I think what might possibly help is if the Training Stage has its own VS mode version. In Rivals of Aether, there's a training stage, and then the VS mode version (which is an alt of Endless Abyss).
That being said, both Tekken 7 and Smash Bros-style fighting games is that stage choice is more of an important part because their layouts can determine matchups sometimes. So it might not be the best fix for the more traditional fighters.
I agree. People are running the training stages all day in games that can clearly run every stage at 60FPS without issue. This seems to be less of an issue in Tekken since the stages are part of the gameplay. Hopefully SF6 does what KI does and removes these grid stages from competitive game modes
I remember seeing Final Destination on Smash over and over and over again. Now in Smash it makes sense, as the stages vary way too differently from stage to stage, but I feel like that's where it first started being a thing. In the days of MVC2 we would get to see all sorts of absolutely beautiful stages even in finals matches.
Final destination is actually a bad stage for smash because platforms are necessary because of how characters are designed and balanced
Kazuya and Steve demolish on FD due to kazuya’s burst combos on the ground and Steve’s blocks let him block camp with no way to get to him safely
Battlefield is the most balanced stage for competition
Training stage looks like an asylum room
Finally, someone said it.
I have had ENOUGH of training statge.
Constructive criticism is the only way our favorite games will improve. Thank you Max for always going to bat for the fans and players alike!
I remember a moment of interest and confusion when, after completing a tutorial for a fighting game I can no longer remember, I unlocked the training stage as a stage to select. After that I just didn't think about it.
[if anyone reads this in its entirety, thank you, I know its long and Im sorry lol]
Im a casual spectator of competitive fighting games. I love them and watch the competitive scene, thats why Im here in Max channel - and others -, but definitely not as hardcore into it as other people.
I have to say, from experience, the use of training stage in competitive matches or finals has never bothered me, nor made me think "this is a huge issue!"; because, when watching a tournament, for me the focus of entertainment was never the background, but the players. I wanted to see what the so-called "best in the world" were capable of doing, demonstrate what their characters can do and just get amazed by crazy combos, reactions, comeback moments, and heck even the celebrations after a tight or final match that show us their feelings; some cry, some scream, I love it. In a tournament scenario, to me, what makes a fighting game entertaining to see are the top players, yes the background can be "cute" or "beautiful", but Im almost never focusing on it. The variety I look up for is the variety in matches, characters and fighting styles (which is not that common, sadly), rather than stages.
Now this feeling migh have its origin in the fact that Im not the biggest competitive fg spectator in the world, and that could explain why someone who was seen A LOT of matches would need to see different stages in order to enjoy the show. But I think both sides are equally important, because both the casual side (which will be always bigger) and hardcore side are part of the target audience of the game (potential customers); and of course, a good part of the casual side might also want to see beautiful stages, animations, characters and such.
In other things, I also think that if one of the reasons to why they only choose one stage is because the rest dont work properly... then fix them! That shouldnt be a factor.
Finally, if the competitive players like the training stage because of its utility reasons, Im good with that! I dont focus on the stage, if they use it to become even better, thats great, I think thats the case with a lot of other people as well. Because, yes, Max is complaining about them in the video, and I've seen other people echo what he says (including content creators), but I've also seen a lot of people, both casuals and competitive players, that use it and have never say a word about it, or if they have, not in a serious way. Maybe they forgot to complain about it? it could be; maybe they dont really care that much? also could be true. So, I think, depending on which side of the argument you are, you will favor it to the detriment of its disadvantages, which is ok and could just mean its a subjective manner (in regards of how much we, as fighting game consumers, should care about the use of training stage in competitive matches).
What I think could be done, as Max said in his video, is to just make new different training looking stages, to create the "variety" some expectators look for, and make everyone happy.
*slams desk* THANK YOU! It was called The world Warrior - not the trainee fighter.
Unfortunately, one of the SF6 leaks (the one with Cammy) shows that the grid is still in the game
I am in pain
That was probably training mode
who's ready for WHITEROOMWHITEROOMWHITEROOM for 5+ years :)))
Not an issue in Tekken. The stages are so good that random select is the standard round 1 format, and players can switch either the character or the stage on loss.
It's funny how Max will say (multiple times) that it's largely the fault of the developers because the rest of the options either have issues with visual clarity or straight up create performance/lag problems. . .
and people will STILL come to the comment section to get mad at the players.
Now that Max is talking about it I've always wanted a training stage for each fighting game characters with their own workout musics.