“Do you really think a mother would see their fetus as an amoral agent?!” Lol yes. Of course. If my fetus kicks me, I’m not sitting here thinking he’s being rude or immoral by kicking me. Fetus can’t do good or bad or right or wrong, so yes, of course a fetus is amoral lmao.
@@LikeaSsurI think to be innocent you’d need the ability or potential to be guilty. Though I guess you could argue about the exact definition of ‘innocent’. I guess you could argue that amoral agents are “innocent” in that they cannot be guilty - like you could say that a tree is innocent, but personally I think it feels silly to apply the term to something that could never be guilty. I’d still say a fetus is amoral, regardless of whether or not we say they’re innocent. If we’re defining innocence that way, then it’s not mutually exclusive with being amoral. With that usage, it would just mean that all amoral things are definitionally innocent.
@@LaurenElizabethYT That’s fair. To me, I don’t think you need to have guilt potential, you merely need to be free from any “crime” or wrongdoing to be considered innocent. I’m with Jovan on most of his points, but amorality only matters to nonliving things in my view.
@@LikeaSsur I see your point too. Like I said, I could probably get on board with calling a fetus “innocent” but I’d just say they’re also amoral. Honestly ever since reading your reply I keep thinking about when exactly I think someone becomes a “moral agent.” I think I’d consider a newborn baby amoral, too… but I’m not sure when exactly a human becomes a moral agent. Definitely not something that’s like an on/off switch, morality develops over time. Like I think like a 2 year old would definitely have some level of morality, beginning to develop empathy and a sense of fairness, idea of right and wrong. So I’d consider them a moral agent, but also wouldn’t say a 2 year old has a fully developed moral system either, which is part of why we don’t hold kids accountable the same way we do adults. Interesting lol
@@LaurenElizabethYT I believe the earliest a child can learn to lie is about 3? I think you could argue that is being guilty or innocent as lying is seen as one of the biggest taboos. Lying typically means you are guilty but do not want to take responsibility, a child may lie about breaking something or spilling something, I'm not saying this makes them a bad person FOR lying just something I thought reading your comment.
I wonder if this guy would keep a non-sentient parasitic twin if it was attached to his body. You poke it with a pin and it twitches, maybe makes a slight sound, but beyond that does not react to anything. Human shaped, human DNA, but no sentience, and is totally reliant on your body’s nutrients to survive. Would removing that twin be killing your sibling?
It seems like a good idea to have the caller agree with the definition of abortion being the termination of a pregnancy rather than the termination of the fetus. Otherwise, they'll be arguing with a position you don't have.
When a caller doesn't immediately ask for Jovan's definition of (X), it's because they prefer not to appear weak when they start intentionally misrepresenting Jovan's position.
this conversation is so funny to me cause before the video even hits the ten minute mark he has no argument. He's has been grasping for over ten minutes and now that his position holds no water he's fumbling to prove Jovan wrong by claiming outliers. I really really wish people like this could see how dumb they look advocating for this kind of nonsense with zero knowledge of the subject or aggravating elements surrounding it.
It's extremely interesting to me how A LOT OF people just hear what they wanna hear. You can tell someone a hundred times that you VALUE SENTIENT HUMAN LIFE and they will still respond with "so you don't see ANY value in human life??"....It's probably an IQ thing, but does their brain just filter out some simple sounding words out of your sentence to keep and then add some new words in there to make it complete and in allignemnt with their preconceived notions? Or does their brain just not comprehend the sentence you tell them at all and it just shuts down while they wait for their turn to talk again? This really interests me. I'm curious if there is a study on this behaviour.
When people Like this say how smart you are, they are just giving you a backhanded compliment. Probably morse so for themselves realizing they brought nothing substantial to the convo other than there feelings.
I hope this conversation gets him to question the religious nonsense he's been indoctrinated with. I can tell from some of the things he's saying that he was raised with the idea that only religious people are moral, or only nonreligious people who were raised religious were moral. And he things that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are the only religious with ancient origins.
'Humanity' is more important than other animal species because we are 'Sentient' and at least 50% of us are working towards the goal of a perfect Utopian World. How's that for an answer?
50% is pretty generous considering a bunch of us are spending most of our lives struggling to survive and provide for our progeny... What are some specific examples of people working towards this "perfect utopian world" ? There are so many issues to point at in America alone as examples of people actively doing the most to simply hurt "others". Which doesn't seem to track with your logic considering "other" groups are human too, yet people continuously work to hurt their fellow humans despite this supposed inherent value to them.
@@KingOfGamesss Awesome! That does nothing to move the convo forward or clarify your flawed view of what this "Perfect utopia" you think people are striving for.😅
Hmm I would argue the viability is more important than sentience. Otherwise we end up in absurd situations when a fetus or child at any arbitrary point after 24 weeks aren’t sentient would be okay for us to terminate irrespective of its 12 months or 120 years old
To be clear, I agree with Jovan largely. But when he brought up the point about veganism, does that mean he would support passing legislation making people vegan? Because killing animals is just as a moral as killing a baby.
Humans are on the top of the food chain and destroy everything….. and some humans only hold themselves at a higher level and don’t give a damn about anything else that matters…. I.e not caring about our planet and the things that came before us.
it’s kinda dumb to boost up humans as these big special species when we are just apes who learned to walk and talk. we do a lot of dumb ape shit all the damn time. we aren’t rational and wise as a species, we’re animalistic and not always aware of it
"It's what society has been based on for 1000s of years" yeah and look at how well that's gone
Appeal to tradition~ 😩
wassup alec
Pretty well actually
@@ashh.1765 for whom?
Oh hey, i know this guy
The amount of times he tries to misrepresent your position to high-road you is honestly amazing
“Do you really think a mother would see their fetus as an amoral agent?!” Lol yes. Of course. If my fetus kicks me, I’m not sitting here thinking he’s being rude or immoral by kicking me. Fetus can’t do good or bad or right or wrong, so yes, of course a fetus is amoral lmao.
Pretty sure you just described innocence lol.
@@LikeaSsurI think to be innocent you’d need the ability or potential to be guilty. Though I guess you could argue about the exact definition of ‘innocent’.
I guess you could argue that amoral agents are “innocent” in that they cannot be guilty - like you could say that a tree is innocent, but personally I think it feels silly to apply the term to something that could never be guilty.
I’d still say a fetus is amoral, regardless of whether or not we say they’re innocent. If we’re defining innocence that way, then it’s not mutually exclusive with being amoral. With that usage, it would just mean that all amoral things are definitionally innocent.
@@LaurenElizabethYT That’s fair. To me, I don’t think you need to have guilt potential, you merely need to be free from any “crime” or wrongdoing to be considered innocent. I’m with Jovan on most of his points, but amorality only matters to nonliving things in my view.
@@LikeaSsur I see your point too. Like I said, I could probably get on board with calling a fetus “innocent” but I’d just say they’re also amoral.
Honestly ever since reading your reply I keep thinking about when exactly I think someone becomes a “moral agent.” I think I’d consider a newborn baby amoral, too… but I’m not sure when exactly a human becomes a moral agent. Definitely not something that’s like an on/off switch, morality develops over time. Like I think like a 2 year old would definitely have some level of morality, beginning to develop empathy and a sense of fairness, idea of right and wrong. So I’d consider them a moral agent, but also wouldn’t say a 2 year old has a fully developed moral system either, which is part of why we don’t hold kids accountable the same way we do adults. Interesting lol
@@LaurenElizabethYT I believe the earliest a child can learn to lie is about 3? I think you could argue that is being guilty or innocent as lying is seen as one of the biggest taboos.
Lying typically means you are guilty but do not want to take responsibility, a child may lie about breaking something or spilling something, I'm not saying this makes them a bad person FOR lying just something I thought reading your comment.
Bro doesnt even realized humans are animals as well. Hes struggling to comprehend how ppl can just not be religious 😂
He's religious. He definitely believes humans aren't animals. People be dumb
Thanks for so many logic reasons to be pro choice
He cant grasp the difference between a sentient life and something that isnt
I wonder if this guy would keep a non-sentient parasitic twin if it was attached to his body. You poke it with a pin and it twitches, maybe makes a slight sound, but beyond that does not react to anything. Human shaped, human DNA, but no sentience, and is totally reliant on your body’s nutrients to survive.
Would removing that twin be killing your sibling?
We evolved empathy. Cooperation is humans' survival tactic
I’m cool with people being religious, just don’t force it on my body/life.
It seems like a good idea to have the caller agree with the definition of abortion being the termination of a pregnancy rather than the termination of the fetus.
Otherwise, they'll be arguing with a position you don't have.
When a caller doesn't immediately ask for Jovan's definition of (X), it's because they prefer not to appear weak when they start intentionally misrepresenting Jovan's position.
He was extremely insufferable. Pretty sure he just likes the sound of his own voice and he was definitely just listening to respond
“It’s what society has been based on for thousands of years.”
Meanwhile humans living for million of years: 😒
As a polytheist, it’s VERY easy to not base your morality on god belief.
He's so ignorant 🙄
not that I doubted this, but the second he said, "I think we're made in the image of god" i threw up a little in my mouth :-s
I'm sorry but some people just shouldn't be parents, this guy included.
This guests feelings do not care about facts
this conversation is so funny to me cause before the video even hits the ten minute mark he has no argument. He's has been grasping for over ten minutes and now that his position holds no water he's fumbling to prove Jovan wrong by claiming outliers. I really really wish people like this could see how dumb they look advocating for this kind of nonsense with zero knowledge of the subject or aggravating elements surrounding it.
It's extremely interesting to me how A LOT OF people just hear what they wanna hear. You can tell someone a hundred times that you VALUE SENTIENT HUMAN LIFE and they will still respond with "so you don't see ANY value in human life??"....It's probably an IQ thing, but does their brain just filter out some simple sounding words out of your sentence to keep and then add some new words in there to make it complete and in allignemnt with their preconceived notions? Or does their brain just not comprehend the sentence you tell them at all and it just shuts down while they wait for their turn to talk again? This really interests me. I'm curious if there is a study on this behaviour.
Jovan debating while casually leveling up a ratata :) beautifull
25:13 That’s only happening because people won’t be hurt for openly rejecting religion atleast in the US
Dude sounds like a Zach Hadel character
When people Like this say how smart you are, they are just giving you a backhanded compliment. Probably morse so for themselves realizing they brought nothing substantial to the convo other than there feelings.
“Oh yeah I GET it”-guy who plainly doesn’t get anything about it
I hope this conversation gets him to question the religious nonsense he's been indoctrinated with. I can tell from some of the things he's saying that he was raised with the idea that only religious people are moral, or only nonreligious people who were raised religious were moral. And he things that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are the only religious with ancient origins.
'Humanity' is more important than other animal species because we are 'Sentient' and at least 50% of us are working towards the goal of a perfect Utopian World. How's that for an answer?
50% is pretty generous considering a bunch of us are spending most of our lives struggling to survive and provide for our progeny...
What are some specific examples of people working towards this "perfect utopian world" ? There are so many issues to point at in America alone as examples of people actively doing the most to simply hurt "others". Which doesn't seem to track with your logic considering "other" groups are human too, yet people continuously work to hurt their fellow humans despite this supposed inherent value to them.
@@anothercub6958 I just want you to know I did actually reply to your Reply-Comment but it seems UA-cam blocked it...so...boo UA-cam censorship
@@KingOfGamesss Awesome! That does nothing to move the convo forward or clarify your flawed view of what this "Perfect utopia" you think people are striving for.😅
Why can't he listen??
Hmm I would argue the viability is more important than sentience. Otherwise we end up in absurd situations when a fetus or child at any arbitrary point after 24 weeks aren’t sentient would be okay for us to terminate irrespective of its 12 months or 120 years old
D:
To be clear, I agree with Jovan largely. But when he brought up the point about veganism, does that mean he would support passing legislation making people vegan? Because killing animals is just as a moral as killing a baby.
I would like to undestand why human existencialism is a bad thing....
Bc were just animals and we destroy our own world. Why are we the top of beings
Humans are on the top of the food chain and destroy everything….. and some humans only hold themselves at a higher level and don’t give a damn about anything else that matters…. I.e not caring about our planet and the things that came before us.
Idk I just don't think that just because we've done a lot that we have the right to do whatever we want and all that, like this isn't just our planet
it’s kinda dumb to boost up humans as these big special species when we are just apes who learned to walk and talk. we do a lot of dumb ape shit all the damn time. we aren’t rational and wise as a species, we’re animalistic and not always aware of it
Human essentialism. Essentialist beliefs historically have led to racial prejudice and extremist ideologies.