Mike Winger Progressive Influencers: Richard Rohr, Brian Zahnd, Rob Bell
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- Mike Winger unpacks the teachings of the most influential progressive, universal and sometimes New Age beliefs of Richard Rohr, Briand Zahnd and Rob Bell.
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Mike we Christians are ALL on a journey in understanding towards our destiny IN Christ. Judge not dear brother as these names you mention have all brought me closer to God, than when since a mid life conversion I deified the Bible as the word of God. Today I know in my heart that the Word of God is not the book but Jesus the Christ to whom it points. And what's more it is Christ in me that draws me to Jesus as both my saviour and my brother. Both sons of the Father He being THE Son and I a son. I am now old and although thankful for my Evangelical beginnings, have progressed to a far more gracious and merciful understanding of God our Father. Often labelled a heretic in the past and now not "church going" I thank Father God for these modern day prophets who in love critique the Christian church who cling to institutional idealogy. We worship God the Father in Spirit (His in us) and in Truth (reality) and we offer our lives progressively in expressing God's love (not judgement) to the world. And may I finish on this note! The Evangelical support of a man like Trump has been the poorest witness for those who may have been considering Christianity as a way of life. And finally in your list of names please include ex Protestant pastor now Eastern Orthodox Brad Jerzak. So progressive in fact he is more Orthodox, and closer to what the early church fathers understood of the Gospel, before it was institutionalized and legalized with notions of hell and everlasting torment for those not accepting Jesus for who He was. Father God awaken your church, with the words with which You inspired St Paul to write ..."abide FAITH HOPE LOVE these three but the greatest being LOVE (no judgement)
Hey friend! I praise God for his work in you! And I really appreciate your compassionate heart. Thank you for taking the time to share with us :-)
Awesome. Thank you
@@henrieecen2938 the belief that Jesus and the Word of God are two separate people is absolutely false. It would be like suggesting that God and his Holy Spirit are seperate. God is One! Deut 6:4 (the greatest commandment of all according to Jesus) This is how God revealed himself to us, through his Word written by his Holy Spirit through his Prophets. What you suggest here is exactly what Mike is warning of. Progressive Christianity!!
We are called to use discernment, to judge other believers by what they speak. If you read Gods Word, you would know how to judge according to what he instructs us. The Torah, the first 5 books of the Bible, is also the Hebrew word for instruction. It is foolish to not listen to Gods instruction. But as Proverbs says, Gods Word is wisdom, and only the Wise have discernment. If you don’t know the Word, you don’t know Jesus, who is the WORD in flesh, wisdom in flesh! John 1:14
You are following a different Jesus, as Paul warns in 2Corinthians 11:3-6
@moiraravji5070 Thank you for your judgemental Pharasaical well meant comments. Jesus our Lord was also considered a heretic needed to be "put down" by those who placed their trust in the written word rather than the LIVING WORD. The former only gives religion/morality rather than a real transformation. I would love to fellowship with more Christian brethren but so hard because of the likes of Mike and your comment. Remember Jesus's comments about others who were baptising also. "Those who are not against us are for us." As long as we preach CHRIST JESUS to be sought and found in ourselves with resultant transformation that's God the Father's will. Blessings to yourself and your ongoing journey with Christ.❤️
We are actually supposed to judge, especially wrong teachings
Read the bible with your spirit and Gods spirit not your brain and the tree of good and evil.
God implores us to use our heads as well as our spirit. But His guidance ONLY comes from His Spirit, our spirit can be misguided because we are still in our fallen world. We will still sin daily, even if it is unconsciously done. The only righteousness you have is in Christ, and Christ alone. You did nothing to attain it. Just because you use/sharpen the intellect doesn’t make you less of a Christian, if anything you will know Him better. I know many Christian’s that have fallen away from Christ or begin to teach heretical beliefs following a path based on what your spirit “feels”, you must always check your spirit against the word of Truth which is the Bible. God will never ask you to do something in contradiction to that truth.
So, it sounds like he's saying. I have and know the truth. God can't be any other way than how I see it. And how I read the Bible. I believe this is another way to misguided people into what you see to be true. We are all God's children. We should all love, accept, and service each other. And let God be the judge of our individual lives.
He is doing that. This is typical fundamentalism. It's just dressed up in a nicer package but it's the same garbage.
What did he say that was incorrect in your eyes?
@@westleybenson1188how do you personally define fundamentalism?
Mike watching this once more I discern that you have not moved beyond the moralistic Evangelical worship of the Bible. Jesus said to the religious Pharisees who worshipped their Hebrew scriptures, "you seek life from your scriptures yet they speak of me. I AM the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE (abundant life in the here and now as descibed by Jesus as the Kingdom of God is at hand). Sadly the churche's message has been more about Jesus securing our salvation after death than following Him or better still being Him in this dysfunctional world. Yes we have had and still have a Christian culture, but have had unlike the very beginning of Christianity a real transformation. Intellectual belief in doctrines that need to be defended tooth and nail against heresy, and yet those who you are critiqueing speak so much what is real about institutionalised Christianity today. They talk the talk but very little evidence of the walk that sets us apart from the world. At least our progressive speakers of today are calling out the state of Christianity. Maybe we lost our way when we deviated from the humble beginnings of Christianity when it was known as the WAY. Not so much as we Evangelicals think today the way of escaping so called hell and torment etc, but the WAY to live unto the universal Christ IN us, and being a TRUE light as we walk in humility grace and mercy to ALL. Including Catholic and a Francican Richard Rohr who you politely listed as a heretic in this talk. Jesus was also a heretic I believe and the religious custodians of His day crucified Him. The reason? For being fully God and fully Human revealing a progressive New Covenant and theology to replace the Old Covenant with its old ontology or understanding of God. Mike be courageous resist the Protestant bias that prevents you from hearing the H. S. as you read our valued written scriptures. I did over the years and was shown truths which only now I'm hearing from these so called progressives. IAM old now a nobody in the eyes of the world and nearing my time. The only sadness I have is that I have no fellowship with my brethren who almost all remain loyal to the authority of a Deified Bible rather than discovering Christ the LIVING WORD within being their TRUE selves. As St Paul himself found and thus writes "it is no longer I (false self?) who lives but Christ who lives in me." Apologies for this long answer Mike, and yes may the H.S. continue to direct your path including being open that God continues to speak to us including the likes of our progressive brethren. I wonder what Jesus who was so inclusive and non judgmental have to say on this subject? Shalom❤️
Nobody worships the Bible. How do you know the Jesus you believe you are following is the real Jesus?
@ryanbrown4053 Thank you Ryan for your question. I value the inspired Bible because it reveals Jesus in myself. From there it has been a life's journey of my ego self being tamed by my Christ centred self. The Christ/ Holy Spirit leads and comforts by convicting teaching and nurturing (love). And I thank the Bible for this because it revealed the man Jesus who showed us the image of God from which we all have fallen short. Blessings to you and your family❤️
I came across this for a second time and listening once again, I realise why after Christianity was institutionalized as a state religion in 313AD, it mostly lost its transformative power. The spread across Europe during the next few centuries was primarily politically imposed from the top down. From here it became cultural with much debating about doctrine ideology interpretation etc. As long as we continue to call the Bible our ultimate authority rather than Jesus the "LIVING WORD" to which it points, we will continue to see the influence of Christianity diminish. We need to see less debating over interpretation and discrediting our brethren and more real transformation into Christ likeness for all of us. Our so called progressive Brethren are like the phrophets of old merely critiqueing what is wrong with the church of today
Personally they have verified a lot of things which I came to see with the eyes of my heart by reading my Bible...prior to hearing from them! Thankfully church authority is not what it was and today we have no stoning crucifixion and fire at the stake etc...but only as Mike here curtiously criticising those who may like Jesus with the Pharisees of His day have somewhat more insight. This rather than a vast collection of Biblical denominations each with their legalistic acceptance of doctrinal traditions. Ever thankful for my mid life fundamentalist Evangelical beginnings I have moved on in my journey with our Father. Relationship with our Triune God never is static and mostly flows onwards (progressive???) And dare I say transformative as we let go of ego self, and allow Christ to live within us...our TRUE self as God intended. How little we see of this but only the minority desiring to grow (progressive?) In the Spirit as sons and daughters, while being maligned by those clinging to doctrinal certainties. Let us once again remind us what St Paul wrote to the Corinthians (1st chapter 13) FAITH HOPE LOVE these three but LOVE (for God and others) most of all.❤️
At about 40 minutes Pastor Mike mischaracterized Brian Zahnd’s approach to reading the Old Testament “in light of what you [Jesus] taught us.” Calling Zahnd’s approach a bobble-head Jesus. I do think that approach exists but Zahnd specifically says in the clip shown that he interprets OT in light of Jesus’ teachings, not his own opinion. Pastor Mike is very clear and respectful with his opinions and interpretations for the most part though!
Thanks for sharing your insights with us!
Judgement and Ultimate Reconciliation are not in opposition (that is a straw man). Judgement is the means by which God reconciles all things to himself. Evangelical Universalist do not deny the wrath of God but see a greater purpose in it rather than simply eternal conscious torment for a particular group of people.
The comparison of how we love Jesus and how we love other people is excellent. I've never thought of that. You love Jesus by obeying his commands and you love your neighbor through self sacrificial love.
Amen! Thanks friend!
Thank God and you Mike for your nice message
Not sure if Mike mentioned this, but also extremely important to recognize that all of these people are universalists. They are pelagian universalists.
Ooops mentioned at around 27:00.
Great outline of progressive thought and justification. Thank you Mike.
Mostly inaccurate though as usual.
Youre extremely blessed if you have a pastor like this. Stay close to Godly men like this man. These are the men that truly love and care about you and have integrity. Nothing matters more at a church then the pastor being a true man of God.
How does your presentation help your congregation love those who misunderstand find truth? Your judgment and misrepresentation of other Christians is shameful.
I’ve heard many teachings from Mike Winger, and his analysis of heretical teachers are far from shameful and filled with grace. But I may ask you the same question, how does your question bring truth, clarity or love in correction to this brother? You’ve brought no example of his judgment or misrepresentation of these universalist teachers. Instead you simply cast stones at him.
If you believe in absolute truth then you should believe it's morally good to make people aware of it and to call out people who's teachings are contrary to it
I believe 1 Timothy 4:10 is true as most churches command the opposite of 4:11 when the word "especially" is often twisted.
This video is the perfect blend of arrogance and ignorance
How so? Can you elaborate?
Thank you for this incredible video. It's very clarifying.
Thank you Eric! It was helpful to me as well. Hoping to have Pastor Mike out for a future event. Also, we’ll be uploading some videos from the most recent conference. Visit us at www.DesertApologetics.com
Thank you for your reply. I had just read "Love Wins," but it didn't quite sit well with me.
I recommend reading Alisa Childer’s book, “Another Gospel”.
ua-cam.com/video/jKTpt6JrSKg/v-deo.html
This pastor is full of such wisdom and humility. Wish I could be there in person!
Thank you!
This pastor is the most prideful I’ve seen in recent times…
@@joshuatinker9304in what way is he prideful?
Great video!
Thank you, friend!
Gal 5v14
I’d implore you to read the entire section, not just one verse. Context is always king when you are trying to make an argument for/about faith.
Mike when are you starting your Hebrews study!!??
He taught at a recent session, and so we have a recorded video although he doesn’t moderate on this channel. He has a channel you should check it out!
@@DesertApologetics what channel? I’m on his UA-cam and also keep on his podcast.
So good
⏰🙂Coming up in less than a month and you DON'T want to miss it! Get your tickets now! Go to www.DesertApologetics.com
So disingenuous. You mistreat and make show of those you disagree with. Have no aprehension of the indwelling Christ. Within our hope of glory.
You employ jades tricks and ignorance.
There is truth in a lot of your statements about Progressive Christians. But it certainly is not all true. You mentioned that Progressive Christians throw out the baby with the bath water but I would argue that you do the same towards them..
"Progressive Christians" aren't Christians. They're purveyors of a false Christianity.
How do u mean?
@BasileaNate "Progressive Christianity" teaches no historic, orthodox doctrine of the faith once delivered to the saints. It's another religion.
Progressive Christianity must disregard Christ as the only means for salvation, by definition this is a different Gospel.
What is the "baby" he is throwing out here?
One real example of one of these guys rejecting the resurrection? I’ll wait….
Brian McLaren!! On the cover of one of his books. It called it a repulsive doctrine that God would kill his own son.
If you do not believe the scriptures (Gods Word) you are by definition, an unbeliever!
As we all know it all about analytics…
Oh man. I hope I make your hit list too one day. ☺️
Very little about the difference between pre and post cross. The new creation means something the law is under the blood of grace. We are in union not seperation. We are justified and sanctified by what Jesus has done not what we do.
And Mike Winger would agree 100% with this.
Romans 2:6-11 read your Bible and don’t quote men’s doctrine, don’t put words in Gods mouth.
Theology is about relationship with the indwelling Christ. Not doctrine handed down from "church" organisations. Why should Same sex relationships be what you major on unless its your issue?
Do u believe the bible is the writing word of God
God makes it an issue throughout the scriptures. So what is the problem?
No theology is man’s doctrines handed down! Man’s theory’s about God! The Bible(Word of God in flesh John 1:1,14)is how to have a person relationship with Jesus, who is Gods very word in human form. Jesus’ teaching is the spiritual revelation of the holy scriptures. Deny the Word, deny Jesus! Matt12:31,32 the Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible.