When it comes to setting up loudspeakers is it better to use spikes or not? Have you gotten your copy of Paul's new book, The Audiophile's Guide? www.psaudio.co...
Paul, spikes (or any rigid material) are couplers. They act as two-way conduits of mechanical vibrations. Depending on their size, shape, density, load, resting structure, etc., different frequencies will be attenuated, while others are amplified. They are not predictable, consistent or repeatable, and never neutral. Proper decouplers (isolators) are predictable, repeatable, consistent, and neutral in every scenario.
Sorry if it has been said before, but the thing with spikes is that it all depends on the floor you have. If you have a ceramic, concrete or other type of hard surface, then the spikes will decouple the speaker from the floor as it doesn't have any "grab" on the surface. If you have a softer surface like wood or wood unerneath a carpet and onee the speaker is in place, you push them in so the spkikes are "nailed down" in the surface, then your are coupling the speaker to the floor (which would make the floor kinda part of your speaker). When using small plates under the speaker on wood as to not damage your floor, then it would act as decoupling. Now as to what sounds better, like ANY other element in your systeme, try it and trust your ears!
For anything to "decouple" there needs to be ability for motion to be different of the two surfaces being inter-connected. A spike is a "coupling device" (like a nail) while a piece of rubber can work as a "decoupling device". You can imagine the X,Y,Z delta distance between the two surfaces and if the two surfaces are locked against each other, you have a coupling device. The spike might have a thin tip, but that only helps it to dig itself into the surface of the other material and it doesn't work as a flexing point (as it's usually made of hard metal). As the voice coil and cone moves in the axis of the voice coil, the entire speaker box is pushed in the opposite direction causing some distortion. Spikes can help the speaker box to not move as much in that axis (especially for lower frequencies).
I have a wood floor from 1951(not springy) covered with cork(used to be carpeted). Now with wood textured tile and an area rug. I recently put isolate it sorbothane 50 duro rings under my Canto Vento reference 7 towers which have blunted spikes. The bass sounds right now. No sub necessary while before I thought maybe I needed one. Clearer and more open as well. I’m 58 and had always assumed spikes were better. That’s hardly the case. Listen for yourself with inexpensive tweaks and decide. Different integrated amps such as the terrific Doge 10 and Denon PMA a100 or source for that matter had less effect on the sound than isolating the speakers.
@@damianzaninovich4900Makes sense. Spikes are couplers and your sorbothane 50 duro rings are decouplers. A wooden floor should be decoupled to avoid the floor to contribute with distortion.
True it seems. These speakers are already on shock absorbers with the port facing the floor but that wasn’t enough. I tried loosening them up while trying to keep them equally level. Next I want to try metal discs for the spikes with and without the sorbothane discs. Everything makes a difference.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
Yes, exactly. Rubber can isolate vibrations from a floor that vibrates easily while spikes can nail your speaker to a solid foundation making the speakers vibrate less. It’s not correct that a spike decouples. Actually a spike does the opposite, it works like a nail. Do you want to nail your speakers to a flimsy wooden floor? I don’t think so.
If you live in an apartment coupling your speakers to the floor does not make for a happy neighbor who lives below you. When I had my own home I placed my speakers directly to the floor, now that I live in an apartment I use isolation spikes and round metal pads with a center. dimple for the spikes to rest in.
@@stimpy1226 Right, if your house is easily vibrating, don't nail your speakers to the house with spikes. It can also add distortion from a resonant floor (especially wood). You can turn your floor into a speaker cone but it's not a good one. Spikes can keep your speakers from vibrating as much in especially the cone motion axis and that's the effect you want from them.
@M Pi Please educate yourself and let’s talk when you understand this topic. You can Google “Speaker decoupling & coupling for better sound” and find an article that describes the difference between coupling and decoupling (article on Teufel website).
Goodbye spikes ….. my Sonus Faber Stradivaris have sat proudly on their spikes for 15 years ….. until today when the speakers came to life on small pads on the concrete floor. Every aspect of the sound I listen out for has improved. From the bass to the depth of image …. overall more realistic than ever. Thank you for this helpful video.
You should isolate your speakers from the floor with soft feets or some kind of other things that isolate your speakers from the floor so it will bee like you have your speakers "floating in the air".
@M Pi Explain to me the physics involved. You have two objects that can move with some freedom relatively for making sense of the term "decoupling". You have 3 dimensions (X,Y,Z) of motion. The Z (vertical) dimension is where gravity is pushing down. The spike will not move vertically after it has sunk into the surface of the material. So vertical decoupling is not happening. Then comes the horizontal motion (X,Y). If the spike is against any surface that is made of a softer material than the metal of the spike, it will dig into it like a nail thus it has no freedom to move separately also in the horizontal dimensions. So neither in X, Y or Z direction is a spike helping on the decoupling. It's rather doing coupling sort of like a nail. Theoretically, you could have the spikes sitting on a hard surface like a diamond where the spikes could travel horizontally to achieve a horizontal decoupling, but it really doesn't make much sense. I can see some sense of using spikes coupling your speakers to a hard floor, e.g. one made of cement, where the speaker's horizontal vibration (especially voice coil axis) can get reduced.
@M Pi It doesn’t matter how much, if at all, the spikes dig into the material. The point is that spikes are made of metal that doesn’t decouple neither vertically or horizontally. Having a sharp tip just help it stay put in any surface. You can also try to imagine a car with spikes holding the engine instead of rubber mounts. Would that work for decoupling the engine do you think? 😂
Imagine the (impossible) ideal of floorstanders without ground contact (or stand) but at the same time firmly in place at all times. In some cases (eg concrete floor) spikes COULD be your next best thing. Minimal ground contact + dampened vibrations due to the high weight versus the minimal contact surface (point of the spike). But there are other ways to achieve the same effect. Try a block of marble or bluestone (or tempered glass - glass has very good sound characteristics given its high density). Try this on top of a carpet to place the speakers on. This is a tip for anyone with a wooden or floating floor: the block simulates a solid floor while the carpet uncouples the whole. Spikes then become redundant.
Many years ago, I conducted vibration transmissibility measurements (modal measurements) supporting an investigation into carpeted and tiled floor vibration at an executive office building. The customer complaint was excessive floor vibration from the executive exercise room was bothering the CFO in his office across the hall. Our measurements clearly showed that if you want to improve transmission of vibration from a vibrating plate/box into the floor through carpet or tile, it was greatest when not using spikes. The primary factor appeared to be contact area between the plate/box and the floor beneath the carpeting or tile. Spikes tended to lift the plate/box so the carpet could not compress, degrading contact area. Spikes just don't develop enough contact area between the floor and plate through carpeting. My data showed that if you wanted to coupling a loudspeaker to the floor you should remove any spikes and lay the speaker flat on the floor. Follow the data, not your gut feelings or anecdotal opinions.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
I think you have to try for your self. My experience shows, that spikes move the energy into the floor. So if you have a wooden floor, that is like a big woofer it self, it is a bad idea with spikes on the speakers. Here I would use insulation, like rubber feet or cork or simular things. Many sell these kind of feet. Spikes I think are great on concrete floor. Try different feet and use what you hear, to guide you to what you like.
Thank you for this. I just bought a house to build up my home studio. And couldn't decide to do it or not. I basically need that "Sterile" bass response. I genuinely feel the same philosophy applies for speaker stands.
Hello Paul. I own Tannoy Westminster GRs. They are full range floorstanding loadspeakers which weigh 138 kgs each .i have them on cones which rest on brass bases. They came with the speakers and improve the bass quality in respect of the clarity of the bass. The sound is more detailed in respect of less colouration.over the whole frequency range the clarity in the mid range and mid and low bass .the speed of the sound is just like live instruments and though there appears to be less midbass especially when playing organ music actually the sound is much closer to the real sound of a live organ.my foor is solid oak on a concrete base. The speakers just appear to sound better i think there is decoupling from the floor which gets rid of colouration and vibration from the floor.
The thing about spikes is that they have fairly predictable performance with a variety of floor types and coverings. However they are not ideal as there is no damping. Isolation feet address this issue, currently as an aftermarket add on. I think I would really like to see them developed for and included with the speakers when you buy them.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
I agree with your Paul. People seem to get so caught up focusing on specific frequency's. However they don't step back & look at the forrest, asking themselves, "how close to the live performance does my system sound" In the end you have only your self to please.
Coincidentally, I’ve just bought some Wharfedale freestanding speakers and these definitely sound better - more controlled and solid bass - with spikes on my carpeted floor above the ground slab. If you had stand mount speakers, you’d want sturdy stands (possibly sand filled) and you’d want to bolt them to the stands rather than use spikes, wouldn’t you? This is to secure the cabinet so it provides firm support for the bass unit. I don’t think you’d necessarily have this particular problem with the bottom of the stands or freestanding cabinets but if they’re on carpets like mine, they might move fractionally and you want the spikes to secure the stands or cabinets to the floor beneath rather than the fluffy carpet. If you have suspended wood flooring that could vibrate, you surely want to isolate your stands or cabinets with spikes to prevent the transmission of vibrations to the floor. So yes, in some cases the spikes couple and in other cases they isolate! But I reckon they’re usually a GOOD THING unless you actually want uncontrolled and unnaturally augmented bass coming up from your wooden floor.
This is a sad day for audiophiles around the world. After watching this video, sadness has overtaken my existence because, yes to each his own, I just simply cannot put a pair of speakers directly on the floor. Any floor of any kind. I wouldn't say I am a purist audiophile but I am an audiophile none the less and I have a pair of Paradigm 9SE MK III speakers that stand about four and a half feet high and when you place them directly on the floor the bass is muddy and the sound is not natural to me. Once you put those speaker spikes under the bottom of your speaker, you will hear your music like you've never heard before if you have been playing your stereo with speakers sitting directly on the floor. With all due respect to this wonderful man in this video who I enjoy watching his videos, yes to each his own, but I absolutely must disagree!! You need spikes. It just doesn't tighten the bass and perk up the sound but Imaging and soundstage improve incredibly. For the love of God please use speaker spikes directly underneath your speakers. ALWAYS!!!!
Paul, sound is emitted by the speakers and reacts with everything it contacts, delayed by the speed of sound. The floor is reacting to.the airborne sound as well as everything sitting in contact. All slightly out of phase, Even deadened speakers will release and react to air and floor bound noise. Like the effect of inaudible power supply noise lightening a black background. I find decoupling the speakers darkens this background noise letting me hear deeper into the mix. I confess there’s no documentation for this, but it makes sense to me. Turn up the dark!
For me personally (I have a concrete floor covered by carpet) I find that using spikes helps with certain speakers.. particularly my PSB Stratus Gold(i)s. It indeed tightens up the bass a little although it's not some kind of insane night and day difference. As such I actually don't user spikes even though I find it to be a slight bit better simply because I also like to swap speakers out from the 2 channel system and when a 90 lbs speaker is on spikes it's not exactly a good Idea to slide it around. Spikes make things a bit more cumbersome if you want to move yoru speakers often. Otherwise experiment with them. They're pretty inexpensive. In terms of what it does to the sound it can go either way. You may find the tighter bass more natural or not and that might have to do with what materials you listen to. For example I think clunking your speakers down on the floor directly getting that "loosy woosy"bass Pauld describes as natural will feel natural if you're looking for the experience of a large concert hall or venue where the music is likely being reproduced by a big PA system and the room has lots of reverb and delay. Contrarily If like me you're becoming used to how your bass sounds when plugged in DI to your audio interface and your listening to yourself play through a pair of monitoring headphones I find that the spiked speakers provide a slightly more accurate bass reproduction.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
Rubber can isolate vibrations from a floor that vibrates easily while spikes can nail your speaker to a solid foundation making the speakers vibrate less. It’s not correct that a spike decouples. Actually a spike does the opposite, it works like a nail.
@@geoff37s38 It’s alright and he is stubbornly wrong also. Spikes make sense using on a rigid floor where speakers will be held in place (coupling) more firmly reducing especially the voice coil axis motion of the cabinet.
@M Pi The physics behind spikes is that the prevent unwanted movement of the speaker cone holder/cabinet/stand assembly. Spikes alone do NOT prevent transmission of vibrations/resonances. An antivibration material must be placed between the spike and the floor at some point to stop transmission. See comments and replies posted by W. And what are you gaining by demeaning everybody you disagree with? Certainly not friends and definitely not "...my friend...". Maybe your ego will not allow you to disagree without demeaning, sounds like a problem to me, anyone else? I wish we could all be there the day someone comes along and PROVES you wrong on something you have be holding on to as gospel!!
I once used rubber feet intended for placing under washing machines to place under some standmount speakers. It gave a firmer bass, but it's probably not the ideal solution, for a pair of heavy floor speakers as they absorb the energy and do not disconnect it.
In case anyone viewing the link to my system set-up missed it, the speakers are also set atop antivibration pads which are set at the four corners of each of the speaker stand's top plate, with the antivibration pads adhered to the top plates using Scotch 2228 Moisture Sealing Electrical Tape (a type of mastic). And by the way, the photo of my system is not updated to show the exaSound DAC, the parallel set of speaker wires, or the UPS which I have added to the system. I am also now using JRiver for all of my online music/video using foobar ASIO to convert everything audio to 512DSD output to the DAC: the presence of solidity/liquidity of the sound achieved cannot be overstated - it is just like what you get from solid/fluid objects producing the sound. I will eventually get around sometime this week to updating all of the needed changes/additions to the link to my system, so check back next weekend.
@M Pi Wrong: if no antivibration material is incorporated between the speaker cabinet/stand assembly and the floor, vibrations will transfer from the floor to the assembly, its just that unless the vibrations are low enough in frequency and strong enough, they largely get ignored although they do affect the sound and are measurable with test equipment. Think of it like this: I rigidly attach by means of the the weight of the speaker cabinet/stand assembly through four points of contact (spikes) designed for minimal surface area contact. The four points will cause some degree of indentation into the floor material upon which they set unless the material is hard enough to be unaffected by the psi pressure exerted by the spikes (gravity-induced). If the material is hard enough to not be indented by the spikes, then it comes down to the coefficients of friction of the floor and spike materials and the total contact-surface areas between the spikes and the floor. The lower the coefficient of friction, the less coupling you have and the more likely the speaker cabinet/stand assembly is to move from the movements of the speaker cone. If the impulse of energy is driving the speaker cone forward and the cabinet/stand assembly is not held firmly in place, then the assembly will move every so slightly in an opposing direction from the speaker cone. This condition cause smearing of sound by causing changes in the propagation frequency of sound waves. Ideally you want no movement of the speaker holder/cabinet/stand assembly so that sound waves are consistently propagated at the intended frequencies. In the situation where the floor material is soft enough to allow for indentation by the pressure of the spikes and combined with sufficiently high coefficients of friction of the floor and spike materials, you are effectively coupling the speaker holder/cabinet/stand assembly to the floor to prevent it from moving (as just described) when very hard flooring material combined with very low coefficients are encountered. This coupling has the advantages of preventing most of the movements of the assembly but does not address the issue of speaker cabinet vibration resonances being transmitted to the floor nor the issue of floor vibrations/movements being transmitted to the assembly. Those issues are only addressed by the introduction of antivibration material placed somewhere between the assembly and the floor, and has to be done in a way to maintain the desired effect of no movement of the assembly. This is where mass loading is introduced if there is not enough mass of the assembly to contain movement. If you want to think about the principles on a grander scale, think about what is done with construction in areas of high seismic activity where shock-absorbing has to be incorporated to prevent earthquakes from destroying structures.
They do transfer vibrations/resonances to the floor, but that is not their intended purpose. Their intended purpose is to minimize motion of the cabinet/housing the speaker cones are mounted in. And to be able to do that without transferring vibrations/resonances to the floor, some form of antivibration barrier needs to be placed between the cabinet/speaker assembly and the floor while simultaneously maintaining a no motion condition of the cabinet/housing.
Great Video !! Have Spikes that came with my Wharfedale Diamond 11.5's, but I added isolation pads underneath. Took that deep woody bass the Wharfedales was making and made them far more dynamic, almost like my old Klipsch's . Also using spikes under my turntable stand, Just did a UA-cam video on it, build the shelves out of black limba wood, its not very tall, helps keep the center of gravity low. Have very low floor noise. Keeping it simple. Very pleased with the results been getting with my system here lately.
I use IsoAcoustics isolation technology products on all eight of my speaker sets. One subwoofer I had to sit on the pantry wood cabinet in my bathroom, twelve components, and turntable. I'm currently using the GAIA I, II, III speaker isolators; the OREA Graphite, Bronze, Indigo, Bordeaux; the ISO-130 stand, ISO-PUCK mini, ISO-PUCK, and ISO-PUCK 76. The biggest bang-for-the-buck was with the speakers and turntable; great products IMO.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
@@ericharrelson2045 FYI, I introduced a professional associate (dentistry.unc.edu/2020/03/shazib-assistant-professor-oral-medicine/ who found cancer in my mouth early Nov., 2018) to my system and after his brief (1/2 hour) listening session, he requested that I assist him in designing a dedicated audiophile space in his yet-to-be-built townhouse unit. So, not just my experience.
I recently started avoiding spikes especially with heavy speakers simply because I take weeks and months of micro adjustments and with spikes its very hard. Moving the speaker by milimeter amounts makes a far bigger difference than spikes or no spikes do. So I just use flat adjustable feet.
@M Pi did you not read what I wrote. I sometimes adjust my speakers for months by tiny amounts. I can spend an hour or two per day a few days a week. I use a tape measure, level, and laser. You think I'm gonna have a buddy come over every other day to help me do this? Spikes make no sound difference, for me anyway so I'm good with adjustable feet.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
i thoughts were that spikes couple the speaker, adding a bit of solidity to the speaker, and any soft feet would decouple and don't let vibration move into the floor, especially a problem on light movable floors. the spikes dont help on heavy speaker since they have enough mass on their own. This whole subject is for bass, and subwoofers are supposed to to that anyways. mass load the speaker stand and soft feet for the stand and screw the speaker to the stand.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
The theory behind them decoupling is that the reduced surface area reduces how much vibrational energy passes through, and that low frequencies have trouble passing through the small point. But they still hold the speaker rigidly in place, so you don’t have the cabinet moving in a manner inverse to the driver (Newton’s laws of motion)
I’ve been looking so long for an explanation of what effect spikes have on sound (not just the technicalities of how they work) I haven’t played with spikes myself, but did hear about one guy who got speakers that they forgot to include the spikes, and when they sent them later, he preferred them without. So I’ve been trying to find what they accomplish in practice so I know when I’d want to try them. If I get new speakers and the Bass is a bit loose, now I have an answer. But if the bass isn’t the problem, I’ll know not to bother.
The whole idea of using spikes to decouple speakers is completely backwards and has always been so. I don't know if everyone out there simply forgot elementary school physics or what, but it's simple mechanics and very easy to explain in a scientific sense. For decoupling to work, you need to allow the two objects to have some relative freedom of motion. Rubber can allow two parts to move with some separation in all 3 axis. A metal spike is not flexing. Theoretically you could put your speakers with spikes on a hard smooth surface, perhaps made of diamond and perhaps even add some oil to it, so it could shift horizontally LOL...but it would still be a stupid idea. If you want to decouple with pure metal, you rather use balls or rollers and make a shape that keeps the motion within a controlled range (this will decouple only horizontal motion). I'm using some rubber foam pads for my subwoofer to reduce the transfer of vibrations to my floor (decoupling).
@@ThinkingBetter Exactly. The spikes eliminate any possibility of movement and vibration between the speakers and the hard ground. If you have a carpet, the spikes go through it and attach the speakers to the floor, preventing them from vibrating. That is, COUPLES
@@kc9scott Thanks! At last I find people who understand simple mechanics. In forums I have had endless discussions and in the end they could not understand it.
I have the feeling things are mixed up. Spikes concentrate the weigt of the speaker onto a few mm square. This gives a lot of weigt pressure from speaker to floor surface. So, speaker and floor are coupled very much. HOWEVER, for the vibrations of the speaker cabinet it will be very difficult to travel through these few square mm into the floor. If you put your speaker onto a soft dampening material, the cabinet is fully decoupled from the floor. AND all vibrations from the speaker cabinet will stay in the cabinet.
I have parquet on concrete floor, and sat my Thiels 2.4 on a pair of black granite slabs cut to measure. They sound ways more natural than spikes, don't mark the floor, and are very elegant. I agree 100% with Paul on not spiking the speakers
@M Pi did I say I'd have liked to use spikes but i didn't just because of the parquet? No, i didn't say that, i said that granite sounds sensibly better and more natural, plus (to my eyes) it looks more elegant. Unfortunately it's more expensive than metal cones.
Spikes depends on what floor material you have. Parquet on concrete is not going to resonate much at all. Nor will thick, lush carpet. But if your floor is wood on top of wood, or tile on top of wood, you want to keep the vibration from propagating into the floor. You might want to use spikes on carpet to help keep it from absorbing the vibration. We all know what floor spikes do whatever we want to call it. It reminds me of the old 'psychopath' Vs. 'sociopath' semantic argument. People confuse the two terms all the time. Everyone knows the two terms mean completely different things, but the terms are so interchangeably used that nobody knows what anybody else means when they use one.
Not commonly done, but spiking your butt will tighten your bass. If you spike your speakers and your butt, you can get direct mechanical coupling, as well as acoustic! But it's not my preference.
Hi Paul! How is the new speakers going??? I was looking forward to the AN (Arnie Nudell) series but very recently heard you use a completely different name FR (Full Range) - Is the AN series relegated to the history books or still happening? What is the new range you recently mentioned? WHEN/what/how??? Very, very nosey!!! PS: Thanks for the great content!!!
In wooden floors, to eliminate vibrations it is recommended to couple with spikes to a base of cement, granite, marble, etc. That is, we provide a support with weight, mass, to be able to couple.
Nowhere in technology are spikes used to dampen vibration. Machine tools, cars, etc. Just because it doesn`t work. Any kind of rubber dampers work better.
Why decide if the unbeatable PRAT of spikes or the natural reproduction of isolation is best? Take both with the best pucks right now on the market: the Stack Audio AUVA‘s. Highly recommended!
If you can't tell the difference in sound, then seriously don't worry about it.. I can hear things that people can't believe I can hear! However, I won't be spending a fortune on a speaker that I feel my hearing can't appreciate. I already have a great system! sure i'd like a new one but I am not in a rush.
I believe that, as much as can be done, the speaker/cabinet needs to be installed in such a manner that no vibrations/cabinet resonances are transmitted through the speaker/cabinet support system to the floor/walls/ceiling and that at the same time the speaker's housing/cabinet be prevented from movement while the movement of the speaker's cone(s) produce the sounds which emanate from it (them). Failure to prevent the housing/cabinet motion is what causes smearing of the sound as well as other problems related to image focus, detail resolution and proper soundstaging. And I think there is some semantics at play when using the term decouple. Better to think in terms of what I have explained above and, through the use of materials suitable for the intended purposes and some simple physics principles, set about achieving what I have explained above.
It depends on the floor. If you have a hard floor like concrete, try mass loading / coupling with spikes. If you have a vibrating floor like floating wood then use absorbers. YMMV of course, but this is a good starting point for orientation. I just added absorbers under my Klipsch RF7-IIIs and now the bass has thump that wasn't there before. The energy that was going into the floor is now going into the sound wave. Definitely not a subtle change, but of course also not night and day difference. But I am not thinking about adding subwoofers anymore, so that's that.
@M Pi Spikes alone do NOT prevent transmission of vibrations/resonances. An antivibration material must be placed between the spike and the floor at some point to stop transmission. See comments and replies posted by W.
Even 3 cm is slight difference there will be always a bit change of sounding with spikes and without because high on which set is positioned i between floor and ceiling s not the same. This height is quite essential in mixing low tones resonances with whole room. I do not think vibration of floor induced by speaker box which is relatively rigid and heavy are stronger than those induced by whole air in room which can often force distant furniture and glasses to ring.
I recently improved not just the bass but the entire sound stage by decoupling from the floor. The San Francisco Audio Society in an interview with the Audiophiliac mentioned that if your speakers are on a cement slab in the basement adding an absorption barrier between the speaker and the cabinet helps to prevent the slab from becoming part of the problem. First tried dense foam between the the castor wheels on my speakers and the carpet over the slab. WOW. Much better. Ultimately I used rubber floor savers for under furniture.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
@@michaelporter1870 Thanks for sharing these pics. I believe you have effectively decoupled your speaker stand from the floor. The mass of concrete floating above the floor would absorb any vibration that makes it through the spike/disk/antivibration pad/ sandwich. This is precisely the approach I take when attempting to isolate smaller electronics from the world around them. Nice job.
I hear both but I agree it decouples. I am a fan of spikes with carpet. My current speakers have spikes built in so I use them with floor pucks. I like the bass so I will stick with them.
If you agree with me that absorbers decouple then spikes do the opposite - they couple. Not talking about which is better here or doubting that using spikes in your case is a good thing, just trying to clarify those meanings.
@M Pi Stop insulting other people in these comments and start to listen to their (better) arguments. The vast majority agrees with me on this issue and also explains the science behind it. Look it up ;)
Well, Paul, regrettably about the only thing you stated correctly here was that spiking a speaker to the floor tightens up the bass. Now you may prefer the looser more ballooning type of bass. I think you called an "audiophile bass" but I call it a "Me too" type of bass. IOW, one really needs to do little or nothing to achieve the average ho-hum me-too audiophile bass. In which case why even bother discussing it? BTW, just because everybody has a me-too bass does not make it more natural but only more common. In more extreme methods, a spiked speaker doesn't just give tighter bass. A tighter more well-defined bass is actually more natural (except in the audiophile world) and the improved or the tighter the bass, the more you should notice that other bass notes come onto the scene as well including bass notes previously inaudible. But more importantly, spiking about speaker is not limted to bass notes. When done properly or well-thought-out (rather than just token efforts) spiking a speaker will improve the entire playback presentation across the entire frequency spectrum. Not sure why you limited its benefit potential to just bass. Unless perhaps your experience with spiking speakers is quite limited and/or you've given it a token effort - which we are all guilty of.
I’m moving to an appartement soon. How can i prevent my 2:1 subwoofer irritate my new neighbours..in a best sollution..spikes with center coins or hard foam like Auralex?
It has been claimed that spikes are "mechanical diodes" in which case they couple the speaker to the floor while isolating the speaker FROM the floor. That's not just semantics ( 0:54 ). Of course that crowd is also into spikes under equipment (I heard a difference...). Also, in the case of carpet, coupling is definitely increased by spikes.
Spikes do not isolate, they will allow transmission of motion/vibration/resonance between the speaker and the floor unless some method of damping/movement prevention is incorporated between the speaker and the floor. In the case where the coefficients of friction for the floor and spike materials and the total contact areas between the spikes and the floor are sufficiently low to allow the spiked speaker to be pushed horizontally with little force, the speaker is isolated from lateral movement between the floor and the speaker, but it is not isolated from vibration/resonance transmission. Ideally, a speaker assembly (cone-driver/cabinet/(stand if used)/spikes/antivibration material/subbase-mass loader) needs to be set up in a way which will prevent any lateral movements (except for the speaker cone) and transmission of vibration/resonance between the speaker assembly and the floor. Decoupling (motion/vibration/resonance isolation, not physical isolation) from the floor without allowing movement of the speaker assembly is what needs to be achieved.
@@michaelporter1870 Reread what I wrote. I'm saying spikes are more interesting than a simple yes or no -- at least according to someone else's theory which I have mixed feelings about. Directional isolation. I can see how there might be enough asymmetry to the interface to communicate vibration without becoming a larger single vibrating mass like bolting the speaker to the floor, but "diodes" is a rather strong claim. But according to this concept, everyone else here is missing the whole point, so you might want to know the idea exists.
i think any floor that subject to vibration, not transmission of bass. say you have a floating wood floor. you may get vibrations (distortion from the floor). in that scenario I would use some type of isolation disk between the spike and the floor. Rug, yes spikes. solid surface like tile, I think spikes you create distortion. then again some type of disk to decouple from the floor. I've seen people lay a square of rug just under the speaker to couple it to the floor.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
Shouldn't speaker cabinets be designed and built so that no vibrations exist in the cabinet? In that case, no spikes would ever be needed, right? I have never used spikes, and I never will because of this. I instead trust the monitors/speakers I use to be designed and built correctly which should be equal to no cabinet vibrations.
Hmm... there are spikes that are marketed as the same design used to isolate vibrations in lathes used to shape multi million dollar jet engines, but in practice, spikes and / or pucks and other vibration controlling devices are a necessity in hi fi loudspeakers. If I didn't use one, my speakers start to wander around if I play Puppets and Justice era Metallica tracks above a certain volume.
It’s a first but I have to disagree with paul on this one. Spikes couple to the floor. Think of a soccer shoe with spikes underneath. Does it give the player more or less traction ? For the same weight, if you reduce the surface area you increase the pressure because the same weight is applied on a smaller surface. But i agree with the fact that in most cases, decoupling is better.
@M Pi Wrong: if no antivibration material is incorporated between the speaker cabinet/stand assembly and the floor, vibrations will transfer from the floor to the assembly, its just that unless the vibrations are low enough in frequency and strong enough, they largely get ignored although they do affect the sound and are measurable with test equipment. Think of it like this: I rigidly attach by means of the the weight of the speaker cabinet/stand assembly through four points of contact (spikes) designed for minimal surface area contact. The four points will cause some degree of indentation into the floor material upon which they set unless the material is hard enough to be unaffected by the psi pressure exerted by the spikes (gravity-induced). If the material is hard enough to not be indented by the spikes, then it comes down to the coefficients of friction of the floor and spike materials and the total contact-surface areas between the spikes and the floor. The lower the coefficient of friction, the less coupling you have and the more likely the speaker cabinet/stand assembly is to move from the movements of the speaker cone. If the impulse of energy is driving the speaker cone forward and the cabinet/stand assembly is not held firmly in place, then the assembly will move every so slightly in an opposing direction from the speaker cone. This condition cause smearing of sound by causing changes in the propagation frequency of sound waves. Ideally you want no movement of the speaker holder/cabinet/stand assembly so that sound waves are consistently propagated at the intended frequencies. In the situation where the floor material is soft enough to allow for indentation by the pressure of the spikes and combined with sufficiently high coefficients of friction of the floor and spike materials, you are effectively coupling the speaker holder/cabinet/stand assembly to the floor to prevent it from moving (as just described) when very hard flooring material combined with very low coefficients are encountered. This coupling has the advantages of preventing most of the movements of the assembly but does not address the issue of speaker cabinet vibration resonances being transmitted to the floor nor the issue of floor vibrations/movements being transmitted to the assembly. Those issues are only addressed by the introduction of antivibration material placed somewhere between the assembly and the floor, and has to be done in a way to maintain the desired effect of no movement of the assembly. This is where mass loading is introduced if there is not enough mass of the assembly to contain movement. If you want to think about the principles on a grander scale, think about what is done with construction in areas of high seismic activity where shock-absorbing has to be incorporated to prevent earthquakes from destroying structures.
I have the option to use spikes or the rubber pads attached to outriggers on my speakers. (Monitor Audio Silver 300's). The spikes will screw on through holes in the pads to the outriggers. I prefer not using the spikes. Now I have 2 reasons. Better Bass and no holes in our hardwood floors!
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
I built spiked platforms to go under my floor-standing speakers. The speakers themselves have rubber feet. So the rubber feet have a nice solid surface to stand on... 🤪🤪🤪
One OF my favorite HiFi shops used to sell big bags of shot that you could put on top of your speakers, they weighed several pounds. They made every speaker I heard them used on become clearer and with better bass. It’s the mass.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
A good heavy speaker supported near its corners on something like 'Sorbothane' hemispheres will produce what my mechanical vibrations tutor called a 'seismic mass' - big weight on a soft spring with a bit of damping. Lets the speaker cabinet do its own thing.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
I think the whole point of spikes is that (at least for a solid wood floor) they penetrate into the wood a bit, which provides some friction to avoid moving up and down. I don't care if this happens to my floor. If the floor is some other type that would be damaged by spikes, don't use them.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
Here is an interesting exchange I had with Max Townshend of Townshend Audio: Michael Porter Michael Porter 7 hours ago (edited) Aside from the expense of the Seismic Isolation Podium (SIP), it is too spongy to prevent movement of the speaker cabinet/assembly due to the throw of the speaker voice coil which propagates sound waves unless a sizeable amount of mass loading is added. I would like to see these speakers set up as shown in this demo on a flat level vinyl tile floor driven at 90db pulsed output for various frequencies (start at 50hz and work through the audible spectrum in 50hz increments to 20,000hz) and use a frequency meter (which is insulated from sound transmission through everything except the air) set at 1 meter from the front of the speaker cone which is propagating the sound waves for the frequency being tested, and see what the differences are in the propagated frequencies between the speaker on spikes and the speaker on the SIP. I have come up with a solution which could be used for the speaker with spikes shown in this video for less than $50 + tax: two 2'x2'x2" concrete paver stones (90lb each) approx. cost $16.00; eight spike cones approx. cost $25.00; eighteen 2"x2"x7/8" antivibration pads approx. cost $5.00. Here is how to set up: I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center. Max Townshend Max Townshend 5 hours ago The frequency would be identical as Newton's 3rd law applies. If you, as you suggest, the frequency changes, then how come the music from hung columns at rock concerts isn't weirdly distorted and lacking in intensity? Antivibration pads are far far too stiff, as they only start to isolate above 30-40Hz- we abandoned that approach in 1985 and went for the very soft springs which are 20dB+ down at 10Hz. We must be doing something right as we got the highly coveted Product of the year from The Absolute Sound. www.townshendaudio.com/PDF/Townshend%20Seismic%20Podium%20-%20The%20Absolute%20Sound%20product%20of%20the%20year%202020%20_%20Speaker%20Vibration%20%20Isolation.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0LseZIOlLxaKI6D8MmrJZduXHkehZDVbfBBtKEgwvMnZzIzSyoQh4pclA Michael Porter Michael Porter 4 hours ago @Max Townshend Sorry, you are wrong: if I were to suspend a speaker cone/driver devoid of its holder/cabinet assembly by, say, a string hanging down from a stationary point say 20' above in perfectly calm air and pulse it (when it is perfectly stationary and still) to propagate a sound wave, there will be a forward movement of the cone with a responding rearward movement of the cone/driver assembly similar to a rifle recoil when a bullet is fired. But, unlike the rifle recoil, the return movement of cone rearward will be responded to by the cone/driver assembly moving forward. The very movement of the cone/driver assembly rearward responding to the cone's forward movement will cause a frequency shift in the propagation of the sound wave. If you don't believe this, do the experiment and learn the truth for yourself. Max Townshend Max Townshend 4 hours ago @Michael Porter Will the frequency go up or down? Michael Porter Michael Porter 4 hours ago @Max Townshend Down when cone is pulsed forward. Michael Porter Michael Porter 4 hours ago @Max Townshend Think about this: if what you are saying is true, then why aren't speakers suspended inside the speaker cabinet instead to being rigidly mounted? Michael Porter Michael Porter 3 hours ago (edited) @Max Townshend Actually, to be perfectly fair, the amount of frequency shift that will occur using your SIP will depend on the total mass of the speaker/cabinet assembly and how far above the cradle of the SIP the speaker cone/driver propagating the sound is located. The greater the mass of the assembly, the smaller the shift in frequency will be. There will be no shift for cone/driver assemblies which are held rigid so that the only movement (as opposed to resonance vibration) in the speaker/cabinet's surrounding environment is the speaker cone propagating the sound waves. However, rigid mounting leads to the other issue of vibration/resonance transmission between speaker/cabinet assembly and floor/wall/ceiling (depending on mounting). That is precisely why some antivibration material needs to be incorporated at some location between the speaker/cabinet assembly and the floor/wall/ceiling while at the same time preventing movements of the speaker/cabinet assemble responding to the pulsing of the speaker cones. Michael Porter Michael Porter 3 hours ago (edited) @Max Townshend I will make it really simple for you to understand: if you are traveling down the road at 60 mph and approaching a car honking its horn which is stationary and continue on past that car still honking its horn, the pitch that you hear will lower after you pass the car honking the horn. This is an example of frequency shift due to your motion relative to the stationary car horn honking. In the case of the speaker cone/driver assembly, the assembly is moving away from (rearward) its initial position, so that movement has to be subtracted from the forward movement of the speaker cone which will result a lowering (shift) in the frequency relative to the surrounding environment in front of that speaker. Max Townshend Max Townshend 57 minutes ago @Michael Porter This is the Doppler effect, which has been debated on and off since the invention of the loudspeaker, especially full-range cones. Even your eardrum suffers from this. The trouble with rigid cabinet mounting is that the cabinet is not infinitely stiff and the ground is not infinitely rigid. This means that the cabinet vibrates like a plucked ruler in a vice. Watch the video carefully and all this is explained. Michael Porter Michael Porter 8 minutes ago (edited) @Max Townshend Call it what you will, Doppler effect, it is still a frequency shift in the wave propagated by the speaker due to the addition or subtraction of motion relative to the movement of the speaker cone when pulsed to propagate a sound wave. The physics principle behind this has existed for as long as the universe has existed even if it wasn't known before being discovered. The advent of loudspeakers did not/could not change this principle of physics. There is no debate about the facts surrounding frequency shifts when motion is introduced as I have previously described. If you doubt this, consult a physics professor. The requirements to prevent motion of the speaker holder/cabinet while simultaneously preventing transfer/transmission of motion/vibration/resonance between the floor/wall/ceiling and the speaker/cabinet assembly means that both fixed stabilization of the speaker holder/cabinet/(stand if used) assembly as well as damping to prevent vibration/resonance between the assembly and the floor/wall/ceiling need to be incorporated. In the scenario I presented to you utilizing the spike/disc/antivibration pad/concrete paver/antivibration pad sandwich, the concrete paver (90lb) adds enough mass loading to the entire assembly placed on the floor and also has the effect of absorbing any possible vibration/resonance from the speaker cabinet which might make it through the top set of antivibration pads while the bottom set of antivibration pads will complete the elimination of vibration/resonance transfer/transmission to the floor.
@@1wired4sound I initially got them to save my floor, but the imaging focused and the sound difference was more than I anticipated. Maybe it's organic snake oil :P
Spikes seem to be as controversial as interconnects! Isn’t it all a matter of your own pleasure in hearing your own system in your own room? There is no ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, imho.
It really depends on whether you are trying to recreate the exact sound/space recorded during the performance. The greater the precision of the resultant sound output compared to the sound/space environment during the recording, the better audiophile you become. IMHO.
There was a comment recently from a reviewer that (I paraphrase) he considers exact reproduction more important than a sense of reproducing the pleasure of the original performance. I couldn’t disagree more but I recognise that exact reproduction has gained a following in recent years, possibly to the detriment of musical pleasure. Personally, I think it comes down to a matter of whether the individual genuinely enjoys the music or takes pleasure in the mechanics of the reproduction system. I plant myself firmly in the former category. Though I have the greatest regard for his technical knowledge, I often feel Paul falls into the latter category.
@@andrewwebb4635 I consider both equally important and do not put myself in a camp that believes those two categories are mutually exclusive of one another. And instead of 'feeling' Paul falls into a particular category, why don't you just ask him?
You seem very uptight about this, Michael. Is it so vital an issue in the great scheme of things? I think we’ll just let it drop. I very much hope you enjoy music as well as an interest in the highest possible res! Incidentally, I had commented to Paul about this issue of music lover vs technology lover months ago but unfortunately with no response. I’ll just leave you with a last thought. I think it’s analogous to whether an individual enjoys driving for its own sake - the freedom of the road and travel - or whether it’s necessary for that person’s psyche to have the latest/best/fastest etc car, ie a social prop of some sort.
@@andrewwebb4635 It is more analogous to enjoying driving for its own sake coupled with having the necessary skill to require a vehicle which will allow full exercise of that skill at the greatest speeds/maneuverability attainable for the vehicle: you want the vehicle which will allow for the greatest extent of application of your skill. And I would say that I am passionate, not uptight, IMHO, thank you.
Really you want speakers to be floating on the stand using bungee cord alternatively get little disc candles feel them with blu tack and replace the spikes with large headed carriage bolts place a felt disc on top of the blu tack and stick it underneath the candle case if on hard floor best isolator you can get
My tower speakers are heavy as hell! I just got me sets of caster wheels to construct some fitted dolly's for them. I may stain & poly some floor trim and attach around the sides. My curiosity here is if the casters will give the same effect as the spikes? They are 2" in diameter.
I had been a firm believer in spikes until I saw Max Townshend's video (ua-cam.com/video/dW9-r83IvhI/v-deo.html) on loudspeaker decoupling. I have oak parquet on concrete floors and thought spikes (with spike shoes) would be the best solution. BUT then I decoupled the speakers from the floor and was gobsmacked at the freer less constricted sound, more bass, more upper frequency energy. So now I'm using silicon feet under all equipment and the system has never sounded so good in 20 years! Hollow or concrete floors, sound is still transmitted in the floor, unless you decouple. Check out Max Townshend'd video. All the best, Rob in Switzerland
Michael Porter 38 minutes ago Here is an interesting exchange I had with Max Townshend of Townshend Audio which should shed a lot of light here: Michael Porter Michael Porter 7 hours ago (edited) Aside from the expense of the Seismic Isolation Podium (SIP), it is too spongy to prevent movement of the speaker cabinet/assembly due to the throw of the speaker voice coil which propagates sound waves unless a sizeable amount of mass loading is added. I would like to see these speakers set up as shown in this demo on a flat level vinyl tile floor driven at 90db pulsed output for various frequencies (start at 50hz and work through the audible spectrum in 50hz increments to 20,000hz) and use a frequency meter (which is insulated from sound transmission through everything except the air) set at 1 meter from the front of the speaker cone which is propagating the sound waves for the frequency being tested, and see what the differences are in the propagated frequencies between the speaker on spikes and the speaker on the SIP. I have come up with a solution which could be used for the speaker with spikes shown in this video for less than $50 + tax: two 2'x2'x2" concrete paver stones (90lb each) approx. cost $16.00; eight spike cones approx. cost $25.00; eighteen 2"x2"x7/8" antivibration pads approx. cost $5.00. Here is how to set up: I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center. Max Townshend Max Townshend 5 hours ago The frequency would be identical as Newton's 3rd law applies. If you, as you suggest, the frequency changes, then how come the music from hung columns at rock concerts isn't weirdly distorted and lacking in intensity? Antivibration pads are far far too stiff, as they only start to isolate above 30-40Hz- we abandoned that approach in 1985 and went for the very soft springs which are 20dB+ down at 10Hz. We must be doing something right as we got the highly coveted Product of the year from The Absolute Sound. www.townshendaudio.com/PDF/Townshend%20Seismic%20Podium%20-%20The%20Absolute%20Sound%20product%20of%20the%20year%202020%20_%20Speaker%20Vibration%20%20Isolation.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0LseZIOlLxaKI6D8MmrJZduXHkehZDVbfBBtKEgwvMnZzIzSyoQh4pclA Michael Porter Michael Porter 4 hours ago @Max Townshend Sorry, you are wrong: if I were to suspend a speaker cone/driver devoid of its holder/cabinet assembly by, say, a string hanging down from a stationary point say 20' above in perfectly calm air and pulse it (when it is perfectly stationary and still) to propagate a sound wave, there will be a forward movement of the cone with a responding rearward movement of the cone/driver assembly similar to a rifle recoil when a bullet is fired. But, unlike the rifle recoil, the return movement of cone rearward will be responded to by the cone/driver assembly moving forward. The very movement of the cone/driver assembly rearward responding to the cone's forward movement will cause a frequency shift in the propagation of the sound wave. If you don't believe this, do the experiment and learn the truth for yourself. Max Townshend Max Townshend 4 hours ago @Michael Porter Will the frequency go up or down? Michael Porter Michael Porter 4 hours ago @Max Townshend Down when cone is pulsed forward. Michael Porter Michael Porter 4 hours ago @Max Townshend Think about this: if what you are saying is true, then why aren't speakers suspended inside the speaker cabinet instead to being rigidly mounted? Michael Porter Michael Porter 3 hours ago (edited) @Max Townshend Actually, to be perfectly fair, the amount of frequency shift that will occur using your SIP will depend on the total mass of the speaker/cabinet assembly and how far above the cradle of the SIP the speaker cone/driver propagating the sound is located. The greater the mass of the assembly, the smaller the shift in frequency will be. There will be no shift for cone/driver assemblies which are held rigid so that the only movement (as opposed to resonance vibration) in the speaker/cabinet's surrounding environment is the speaker cone propagating the sound waves. However, rigid mounting leads to the other issue of vibration/resonance transmission between speaker/cabinet assembly and floor/wall/ceiling (depending on mounting). That is precisely why some antivibration material needs to be incorporated at some location between the speaker/cabinet assembly and the floor/wall/ceiling while at the same time preventing movements of the speaker/cabinet assemble responding to the pulsing of the speaker cones. Michael Porter Michael Porter 3 hours ago (edited) @Max Townshend I will make it really simple for you to understand: if you are traveling down the road at 60 mph and approaching a car honking its horn which is stationary and continue on past that car still honking its horn, the pitch that you hear will lower after you pass the car honking the horn. This is an example of frequency shift due to your motion relative to the stationary car horn honking. In the case of the speaker cone/driver assembly, the assembly is moving away from (rearward) its initial position, so that movement has to be subtracted from the forward movement of the speaker cone which will result a lowering (shift) in the frequency relative to the surrounding environment in front of that speaker. Max Townshend Max Townshend 57 minutes ago @Michael Porter This is the Doppler effect, which has been debated on and off since the invention of the loudspeaker, especially full-range cones. Even your eardrum suffers from this. The trouble with rigid cabinet mounting is that the cabinet is not infinitely stiff and the ground is not infinitely rigid. This means that the cabinet vibrates like a plucked ruler in a vice. Watch the video carefully and all this is explained. Michael Porter Michael Porter 8 minutes ago (edited) @Max Townshend Call it what you will, Doppler effect, it is still a frequency shift in the wave propagated by the speaker due to the addition or subtraction of motion relative to the movement of the speaker cone when pulsed to propagate a sound wave. The physics principle behind this has existed for as long as the universe has existed even if it wasn't known before being discovered. The advent of loudspeakers did not/could not change this principle of physics. There is no debate about the facts surrounding frequency shifts when motion is introduced as I have previously described. If you doubt this, consult a physics professor. The requirements to prevent motion of the speaker holder/cabinet while simultaneously preventing transfer/transmission of motion/vibration/resonance between the floor/wall/ceiling and the speaker/cabinet assembly means that both fixed stabilization of the speaker holder/cabinet/(stand if used) assembly as well as damping to prevent vibration/resonance between the assembly and the floor/wall/ceiling need to be incorporated. In the scenario I presented to you utilizing the spike/disc/antivibration pad/concrete paver/antivibration pad sandwich, the concrete paver (90lb) adds enough mass loading to the entire assembly placed on the floor and also has the effect of absorbing any possible vibration/resonance from the speaker cabinet which might make it through the top set of antivibration pads while the bottom set of antivibration pads will complete the elimination of vibration/resonance transfer/transmission to the floor.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
@spentron1 OK, let's go listen to speakers set on the floor using spikes and have a vibratory compactor (drive.google.com/file/d/1qmhbi6wjMxGFOAyJ6XM5Fm1fiexCZD2J/view?usp=sharing) operating outside 50' away: guaranteed the vibrations being produced by that compactor will transmit up those spikes to the speakers!!
Paul, spikes (or any rigid material) are couplers. They act as two-way conduits of mechanical vibrations. Depending on their size, shape, density, load, resting structure, etc., different frequencies will be attenuated, while others are amplified. They are not predictable, consistent or repeatable, and never neutral. Proper decouplers (isolators) are predictable, repeatable, consistent, and neutral in every scenario.
this is what I was saying, I almost got mindwashed by the internet so much misinformation yikes
Sorry if it has been said before, but the thing with spikes is that it all depends on the floor you have. If you have a ceramic, concrete or other type of hard surface, then the spikes will decouple the speaker from the floor as it doesn't have any "grab" on the surface. If you have a softer surface like wood or wood unerneath a carpet and onee the speaker is in place, you push them in so the spkikes are "nailed down" in the surface, then your are coupling the speaker to the floor (which would make the floor kinda part of your speaker). When using small plates under the speaker on wood as to not damage your floor, then it would act as decoupling. Now as to what sounds better, like ANY other element in your systeme, try it and trust your ears!
For anything to "decouple" there needs to be ability for motion to be different of the two surfaces being inter-connected. A spike is a "coupling device" (like a nail) while a piece of rubber can work as a "decoupling device". You can imagine the X,Y,Z delta distance between the two surfaces and if the two surfaces are locked against each other, you have a coupling device. The spike might have a thin tip, but that only helps it to dig itself into the surface of the other material and it doesn't work as a flexing point (as it's usually made of hard metal). As the voice coil and cone moves in the axis of the voice coil, the entire speaker box is pushed in the opposite direction causing some distortion. Spikes can help the speaker box to not move as much in that axis (especially for lower frequencies).
I have a wood floor from 1951(not springy) covered with cork(used to be carpeted). Now with wood textured tile and an area rug. I recently put isolate it sorbothane 50 duro rings under my Canto Vento reference 7 towers which have blunted spikes. The bass sounds right now. No sub necessary while before I thought maybe I needed one. Clearer and more open as well. I’m 58 and had always assumed spikes were better. That’s hardly the case. Listen for yourself with inexpensive tweaks and decide. Different integrated amps such as the terrific Doge 10 and Denon PMA a100 or source for that matter had less effect on the sound than isolating the speakers.
@@damianzaninovich4900Makes sense. Spikes are couplers and your sorbothane 50 duro rings are decouplers. A wooden floor should be decoupled to avoid the floor to contribute with distortion.
True it seems. These speakers are already on shock absorbers with the port facing the floor but that wasn’t enough. I tried loosening them up while trying to keep them equally level. Next I want to try metal discs for the spikes with and without the sorbothane discs. Everything makes a difference.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
I think it depends more on the floor type. Hollow floors seem to benifit from decoupling and solid floors benift from coupling.
Yes, exactly. Rubber can isolate vibrations from a floor that vibrates easily while spikes can nail your speaker to a solid foundation making the speakers vibrate less. It’s not correct that a spike decouples. Actually a spike does the opposite, it works like a nail. Do you want to nail your speakers to a flimsy wooden floor? I don’t think so.
If you live in an apartment coupling your speakers to the floor does not make for a happy neighbor who lives below you. When I had my own home I placed my speakers directly to the floor, now that I live in an apartment I use isolation spikes and round metal pads with a center. dimple for the spikes to rest in.
@@stimpy1226 Right, if your house is easily vibrating, don't nail your speakers to the house with spikes. It can also add distortion from a resonant floor (especially wood). You can turn your floor into a speaker cone but it's not a good one. Spikes can keep your speakers from vibrating as much in especially the cone motion axis and that's the effect you want from them.
@@ThinkingBetter listen to this guy
@M Pi Please educate yourself and let’s talk when you understand this topic. You can Google “Speaker decoupling & coupling for better sound” and find an article that describes the difference between coupling and decoupling (article on Teufel website).
Spikes couple. This is a simple fact. It dedudes vibrations through coupling. And yes, it is easier to decouple properly.
Goodbye spikes ….. my Sonus Faber Stradivaris have sat proudly on their spikes for 15 years ….. until today when the speakers came to life on small pads on the concrete floor. Every aspect of the sound I listen out for has improved. From the bass to the depth of image …. overall more realistic than ever. Thank you for this helpful video.
What pad do you use?
Wasted 15 years not too clever 😅
Isolation pads right?
I just use little round sticky 1/4 inch felt pads from dollar store.
Works fine for me.
"Long live the cheap audio man!!". :)
I have a parquet floor, should I spike my speakers?
Well, it depends how much you care about your floor.
Yes but the spikes don't go into the wooden floor
I wouldn't use spikes for such floor. Spikes are coupling devices and you don't want your floor to act like a speaker cone.
You should isolate your speakers from the floor with soft feets or some kind of other things that isolate your speakers from the floor so it will bee like you have your speakers "floating in the air".
@M Pi Explain to me the physics involved. You have two objects that can move with some freedom relatively for making sense of the term "decoupling". You have 3 dimensions (X,Y,Z) of motion. The Z (vertical) dimension is where gravity is pushing down. The spike will not move vertically after it has sunk into the surface of the material. So vertical decoupling is not happening. Then comes the horizontal motion (X,Y). If the spike is against any surface that is made of a softer material than the metal of the spike, it will dig into it like a nail thus it has no freedom to move separately also in the horizontal dimensions. So neither in X, Y or Z direction is a spike helping on the decoupling. It's rather doing coupling sort of like a nail. Theoretically, you could have the spikes sitting on a hard surface like a diamond where the spikes could travel horizontally to achieve a horizontal decoupling, but it really doesn't make much sense. I can see some sense of using spikes coupling your speakers to a hard floor, e.g. one made of cement, where the speaker's horizontal vibration (especially voice coil axis) can get reduced.
@M Pi It doesn’t matter how much, if at all, the spikes dig into the material. The point is that spikes are made of metal that doesn’t decouple neither vertically or horizontally. Having a sharp tip just help it stay put in any surface. You can also try to imagine a car with spikes holding the engine instead of rubber mounts. Would that work for decoupling the engine do you think? 😂
This channel is becoming interesting : It's like watching a SPIKE Lee Movie 🎥 for Audiophiles
Paul's voice sounds amazing on my spiked Martin Logan Ascents :)
Imagine the (impossible) ideal of floorstanders without ground contact (or stand) but at the same time firmly in place at all times. In some cases (eg concrete floor) spikes COULD be your next best thing. Minimal ground contact + dampened vibrations due to the high weight versus the minimal contact surface (point of the spike).
But there are other ways to achieve the same effect. Try a block of marble or bluestone (or tempered glass - glass has very good sound characteristics given its high density). Try this on top of a carpet to place the speakers on. This is a tip for anyone with a wooden or floating floor: the block simulates a solid floor while the carpet uncouples the whole. Spikes then become redundant.
the best thing to try is the Townshend podiums they totally isolate the speakers from any vibration going out of or into the speaker and the floor
Many years ago, I conducted vibration transmissibility measurements (modal measurements) supporting an investigation into carpeted and tiled floor vibration at an executive office building. The customer complaint was excessive floor vibration from the executive exercise room was bothering the CFO in his office across the hall. Our measurements clearly showed that if you want to improve transmission of vibration from a vibrating plate/box into the floor through carpet or tile, it was greatest when not using spikes. The primary factor appeared to be contact area between the plate/box and the floor beneath the carpeting or tile. Spikes tended to lift the plate/box so the carpet could not compress, degrading contact area. Spikes just don't develop enough contact area between the floor and plate through carpeting. My data showed that if you wanted to coupling a loudspeaker to the floor you should remove any spikes and lay the speaker flat on the floor. Follow the data, not your gut feelings or anecdotal opinions.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
I think you have to try for your self. My experience shows, that spikes move the energy into the floor. So if you have a wooden floor, that is like a big woofer it self, it is a bad idea with spikes on the speakers. Here I would use insulation, like rubber feet or cork or simular things. Many sell these kind of feet. Spikes I think are great on concrete floor. Try different feet and use what you hear, to guide you to what you like.
Thank you for this.
I just bought a house to build up my home studio.
And couldn't decide to do it or not.
I basically need that "Sterile" bass response.
I genuinely feel the same philosophy applies for speaker stands.
So pleased to see really helpful content is back - rather than just plugging the book. Thank you!
Hello Paul. I own Tannoy Westminster GRs. They are full range floorstanding loadspeakers which weigh 138 kgs each .i have them on cones which rest on brass bases. They came with the speakers and improve the bass quality in respect of the clarity of the bass. The sound is more detailed in respect of less colouration.over the whole frequency range the clarity in the mid range and mid and low bass .the speed of the sound is just like live instruments and though there appears to be less midbass especially when playing organ music actually the sound is much closer to the real sound of a live organ.my foor is solid oak on a concrete base. The speakers just appear to sound better i think there is decoupling from the floor which gets rid of colouration and vibration from the floor.
It is not always the question, which is better. But which one disturbs my neighours under me less.
The thing about spikes is that they have fairly predictable performance with a variety of floor types and coverings. However they are not ideal as there is no damping. Isolation feet address this issue, currently as an aftermarket add on. I think I would really like to see them developed for and included with the speakers when you buy them.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
Hi Paul; loved your memoirs; I have a ceramic tile floor and I have my speakers sitting on hockey pucks
I agree with your Paul. People seem to get so caught up focusing on specific frequency's. However they don't step back & look at the forrest, asking themselves, "how close to the live performance does my system sound" In the end you have only your self to please.
Coincidentally, I’ve just bought some Wharfedale freestanding speakers and these definitely sound better - more controlled and solid bass - with spikes on my carpeted floor above the ground slab. If you had stand mount speakers, you’d want sturdy stands (possibly sand filled) and you’d want to bolt them to the stands rather than use spikes, wouldn’t you? This is to secure the cabinet so it provides firm support for the bass unit. I don’t think you’d necessarily have this particular problem with the bottom of the stands or freestanding cabinets but if they’re on carpets like mine, they might move fractionally and you want the spikes to secure the stands or cabinets to the floor beneath rather than the fluffy carpet. If you have suspended wood flooring that could vibrate, you surely want to isolate your stands or cabinets with spikes to prevent the transmission of vibrations to the floor. So yes, in some cases the spikes couple and in other cases they isolate! But I reckon they’re usually a GOOD THING unless you actually want uncontrolled and unnaturally augmented bass coming up from your wooden floor.
This is a sad day for audiophiles around the world. After watching this video, sadness has overtaken my existence because, yes to each his own, I just simply cannot put a pair of speakers directly on the floor. Any floor of any kind. I wouldn't say I am a purist audiophile but I am an audiophile none the less and I have a pair of Paradigm 9SE MK III speakers that stand about four and a half feet high and when you place them directly on the floor the bass is muddy and the sound is not natural to me. Once you put those speaker spikes under the bottom of your speaker, you will hear your music like you've never heard before if you have been playing your stereo with speakers sitting directly on the floor. With all due respect to this wonderful man in this video who I enjoy watching his videos, yes to each his own, but I absolutely must disagree!! You need spikes. It just doesn't tighten the bass and perk up the sound but Imaging and soundstage improve incredibly.
For the love of God please use speaker spikes directly underneath your speakers. ALWAYS!!!!
He's not wonderful.... he is mistaken 😖
spikes couple my friend, in a concrete room you couple on wooden floors or resonating sctructure you decouple with isolation pads and stuff
Paul, sound is emitted by the speakers and reacts with everything it contacts, delayed by the speed of sound. The floor is reacting to.the airborne sound as well as everything sitting in contact. All slightly out of phase, Even deadened speakers will release and react to air and floor bound noise. Like the effect of inaudible power supply noise lightening a black background. I find decoupling the speakers darkens this background noise letting me hear deeper into the mix. I confess there’s no documentation for this, but it makes sense to me. Turn up the dark!
For me personally (I have a concrete floor covered by carpet) I find that using spikes helps with certain speakers.. particularly my PSB Stratus Gold(i)s. It indeed tightens up the bass a little although it's not some kind of insane night and day difference. As such I actually don't user spikes even though I find it to be a slight bit better simply because I also like to swap speakers out from the 2 channel system and when a 90 lbs speaker is on spikes it's not exactly a good Idea to slide it around. Spikes make things a bit more cumbersome if you want to move yoru speakers often. Otherwise experiment with them. They're pretty inexpensive.
In terms of what it does to the sound it can go either way. You may find the tighter bass more natural or not and that might have to do with what materials you listen to. For example I think clunking your speakers down on the floor directly getting that "loosy woosy"bass Pauld describes as natural will feel natural if you're looking for the experience of a large concert hall or venue where the music is likely being reproduced by a big PA system and the room has lots of reverb and delay. Contrarily If like me you're becoming used to how your bass sounds when plugged in DI to your audio interface and your listening to yourself play through a pair of monitoring headphones I find that the spiked speakers provide a slightly more accurate bass reproduction.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
Rubber can isolate vibrations from a floor that vibrates easily while spikes can nail your speaker to a solid foundation making the speakers vibrate less. It’s not correct that a spike decouples. Actually a spike does the opposite, it works like a nail.
@M Pi why do you not just politely disagree instead of resorting to insulting language?
@@geoff37s38 It’s alright and he is stubbornly wrong also. Spikes make sense using on a rigid floor where speakers will be held in place (coupling) more firmly reducing especially the voice coil axis motion of the cabinet.
It is right!! Spikes vs rubber. It is what many fail to understand.
@M Pi The physics behind spikes is that the prevent unwanted movement of the speaker cone holder/cabinet/stand assembly. Spikes alone do NOT prevent transmission of vibrations/resonances. An antivibration material must be placed between the spike and the floor at some point to stop transmission. See comments and replies posted by W. And what are you gaining by demeaning everybody you disagree with? Certainly not friends and definitely not "...my friend...". Maybe your ego will not allow you to disagree without demeaning, sounds like a problem to me, anyone else? I wish we could all be there the day someone comes along and PROVES you wrong on something you have be holding on to as gospel!!
I once used rubber feet intended for placing under washing machines to place under some standmount speakers. It gave a firmer bass, but it's probably not the ideal solution, for a pair of heavy floor speakers as they absorb the energy and do not disconnect it.
i use a combination of a washing machine pad and felt stickers for my sub.
spikes would simple slowly edge through my wood floor.
In case anyone viewing the link to my system set-up missed it, the speakers are also set atop antivibration pads which are set at the four corners of each of the speaker stand's top plate, with the antivibration pads adhered to the top plates using Scotch 2228 Moisture Sealing Electrical Tape (a type of mastic). And by the way, the photo of my system is not updated to show the exaSound DAC, the parallel set of speaker wires, or the UPS which I have added to the system. I am also now using JRiver for all of my online music/video using foobar ASIO to convert everything audio to 512DSD output to the DAC: the presence of solidity/liquidity of the sound achieved cannot be overstated - it is just like what you get from solid/fluid objects producing the sound. I will eventually get around sometime this week to updating all of the needed changes/additions to the link to my system, so check back next weekend.
Info available via the referenced link is now updated.
@@michaelporter1870 Interesting to see your setup. At first i thought you are a bot spamming funny links to all the replies..
@M Pi Wrong: if no antivibration material is incorporated between the speaker cabinet/stand assembly and the floor, vibrations will transfer from the floor to the assembly, its just that unless the vibrations are low enough in frequency and strong enough, they largely get ignored although they do affect the sound and are measurable with test equipment. Think of it like this: I rigidly attach by means of the the weight of the speaker cabinet/stand assembly through four points of contact (spikes) designed for minimal surface area contact. The four points will cause some degree of indentation into the floor material upon which they set unless the material is hard enough to be unaffected by the psi pressure exerted by the spikes (gravity-induced). If the material is hard enough to not be indented by the spikes, then it comes down to the coefficients of friction of the floor and spike materials and the total contact-surface areas between the spikes and the floor. The lower the coefficient of friction, the less coupling you have and the more likely the speaker cabinet/stand assembly is to move from the movements of the speaker cone. If the impulse of energy is driving the speaker cone forward and the cabinet/stand assembly is not held firmly in place, then the assembly will move every so slightly in an opposing direction from the speaker cone. This condition cause smearing of sound by causing changes in the propagation frequency of sound waves. Ideally you want no movement of the speaker holder/cabinet/stand assembly so that sound waves are consistently propagated at the intended frequencies. In the situation where the floor material is soft enough to allow for indentation by the pressure of the spikes and combined with sufficiently high coefficients of friction of the floor and spike materials, you are effectively coupling the speaker holder/cabinet/stand assembly to the floor to prevent it from moving (as just described) when very hard flooring material combined with very low coefficients are encountered. This coupling has the advantages of preventing most of the movements of the assembly but does not address the issue of speaker cabinet vibration resonances being transmitted to the floor nor the issue of floor vibrations/movements being transmitted to the assembly. Those issues are only addressed by the introduction of antivibration material placed somewhere between the assembly and the floor, and has to be done in a way to maintain the desired effect of no movement of the assembly. This is where mass loading is introduced if there is not enough mass of the assembly to contain movement. If you want to think about the principles on a grander scale, think about what is done with construction in areas of high seismic activity where shock-absorbing has to be incorporated to prevent earthquakes from destroying structures.
Spikes are couplers. They serve to transfer vibrations from the speakerbox to the floor but not the other way around.
They do transfer vibrations/resonances to the floor, but that is not their intended purpose. Their intended purpose is to minimize motion of the cabinet/housing the speaker cones are mounted in. And to be able to do that without transferring vibrations/resonances to the floor, some form of antivibration barrier needs to be placed between the cabinet/speaker assembly and the floor while simultaneously maintaining a no motion condition of the cabinet/housing.
@@michaelporter1870 this is not true, it does that by releasing its energy into the floor, you want this on concrete not on wood.
Great Video !! Have Spikes that came with my Wharfedale Diamond 11.5's, but I added isolation pads underneath. Took that deep woody bass the Wharfedales was making and made them far more dynamic, almost like my old Klipsch's . Also using spikes under my turntable stand, Just did a UA-cam video on it, build the shelves out of black limba wood, its not very tall, helps keep the center of gravity low. Have very low floor noise. Keeping it simple. Very pleased with the results been getting with my system here lately.
I use IsoAcoustics isolation technology products on all eight of my speaker sets. One subwoofer I had to sit on the pantry wood cabinet in my bathroom, twelve components, and turntable. I'm currently using the GAIA I, II, III speaker isolators; the OREA Graphite, Bronze, Indigo, Bordeaux; the ISO-130 stand, ISO-PUCK mini, ISO-PUCK, and ISO-PUCK 76. The biggest bang-for-the-buck was with the speakers and turntable; great products IMO.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
@M Pi I could care less what you think.
@@michaelporter1870 your experience is just that your experience. Do what you feel like doing and you be happy about it.
@@ericharrelson2045 FYI, I introduced a professional associate (dentistry.unc.edu/2020/03/shazib-assistant-professor-oral-medicine/ who found cancer in my mouth early Nov., 2018) to my system and after his brief (1/2 hour) listening session, he requested that I assist him in designing a dedicated audiophile space in his yet-to-be-built townhouse unit. So, not just my experience.
I recently started avoiding spikes especially with heavy speakers simply because I take weeks and months of micro adjustments and with spikes its very hard. Moving the speaker by milimeter amounts makes a far bigger difference than spikes or no spikes do. So I just use flat adjustable feet.
@M Pi did you not read what I wrote. I sometimes adjust my speakers for months by tiny amounts. I can spend an hour or two per day a few days a week. I use a tape measure, level, and laser. You think I'm gonna have a buddy come over every other day to help me do this? Spikes make no sound difference, for me anyway so I'm good with adjustable feet.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
i thoughts were that spikes couple the speaker, adding a bit of solidity to the speaker, and any soft feet would decouple and don't let vibration move into the floor, especially a problem on light movable floors.
the spikes dont help on heavy speaker since they have enough mass on their own.
This whole subject is for bass, and subwoofers are supposed to to that anyways. mass load the speaker stand and soft feet for the stand and screw the speaker to the stand.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
Paul should make another video clarifying that he was wrong this time: Spikes couple and rubber decouple.
The theory behind them decoupling is that the reduced surface area reduces how much vibrational energy passes through, and that low frequencies have trouble passing through the small point. But they still hold the speaker rigidly in place, so you don’t have the cabinet moving in a manner inverse to the driver (Newton’s laws of motion)
@@PAPO1990 It gives me the impression that they are confusing sound waves with mechanical transmission of vibrations.
@@pablogeez what’s the difference? Particularly at low frequencies
@@PAPO1990 It is a big difference. It is like blowing a door or pushing it. We are comparing a sound wave force with a mechanical force.
I’ve been looking so long for an explanation of what effect spikes have on sound (not just the technicalities of how they work) I haven’t played with spikes myself, but did hear about one guy who got speakers that they forgot to include the spikes, and when they sent them later, he preferred them without. So I’ve been trying to find what they accomplish in practice so I know when I’d want to try them.
If I get new speakers and the Bass is a bit loose, now I have an answer. But if the bass isn’t the problem, I’ll know not to bother.
@ 1:59 At least I can get my herpes isolators from the neighbor next-door.
Is she ugly ?
@ *chefsteve*
No. She’s a cutey.
Blonde hair, brunette personality and redhead charm.
@@Bassotronics 3 in 1
spikes do not decoupling. quite the opposite: they anchor the speakers to the floor. to uncouple we must put flexible materials.
Hence the IsoPucs he mentioned... He just got the two backwards for some reason.
The whole idea of using spikes to decouple speakers is completely backwards and has always been so. I don't know if everyone out there simply forgot elementary school physics or what, but it's simple mechanics and very easy to explain in a scientific sense. For decoupling to work, you need to allow the two objects to have some relative freedom of motion. Rubber can allow two parts to move with some separation in all 3 axis. A metal spike is not flexing. Theoretically you could put your speakers with spikes on a hard smooth surface, perhaps made of diamond and perhaps even add some oil to it, so it could shift horizontally LOL...but it would still be a stupid idea. If you want to decouple with pure metal, you rather use balls or rollers and make a shape that keeps the motion within a controlled range (this will decouple only horizontal motion). I'm using some rubber foam pads for my subwoofer to reduce the transfer of vibrations to my floor (decoupling).
Pablo is right; spikes COUPLE the speakers to the floor, to prevent the speaker enclosures from moving.
@@ThinkingBetter Exactly. The spikes eliminate any possibility of movement and vibration between the speakers and the hard ground. If you have a carpet, the spikes go through it and attach the speakers to the floor, preventing them from vibrating. That is, COUPLES
@@kc9scott Thanks! At last I find people who understand simple mechanics. In forums I have had endless discussions and in the end they could not understand it.
Hey Paul I like to know what effect ohms have on sound clarity Lower vs higher impedance
I have the feeling things are mixed up. Spikes concentrate the weigt of the speaker onto a few mm square. This gives a lot of weigt pressure from speaker to floor surface. So, speaker and floor are coupled very much. HOWEVER, for the vibrations of the speaker cabinet it will be very difficult to travel through these few square mm into the floor. If you put your speaker onto a soft dampening material, the cabinet is fully decoupled from the floor. AND all vibrations from the speaker cabinet will stay in the cabinet.
@M Pi No, as stated and explained by many people in the comments under this video.
I have parquet on concrete floor, and sat my Thiels 2.4 on a pair of black granite slabs cut to measure. They sound ways more natural than spikes, don't mark the floor, and are very elegant. I agree 100% with Paul on not spiking the speakers
what goes between the base of the speaker and the granite slab?
@@justplainlawr felt. 3mm thick felt pads
@M Pi did I say I'd have liked to use spikes but i didn't just because of the parquet? No, i didn't say that, i said that granite sounds sensibly better and more natural, plus (to my eyes) it looks more elegant. Unfortunately it's more expensive than metal cones.
Doesn't placing the speakers directly on the floor cause 'boom'? Specifically, acoustic-suspension speakers.
Spikes depends on what floor material you have. Parquet on concrete is not going to resonate much at all. Nor will thick, lush carpet. But if your floor is wood on top of wood, or tile on top of wood, you want to keep the vibration from propagating into the floor. You might want to use spikes on carpet to help keep it from absorbing the vibration.
We all know what floor spikes do whatever we want to call it. It reminds me of the old 'psychopath' Vs. 'sociopath' semantic argument. People confuse the two terms all the time. Everyone knows the two terms mean completely different things, but the terms are so interchangeably used that nobody knows what anybody else means when they use one.
Not commonly done, but spiking your butt will tighten your bass. If you spike your speakers and your butt, you can get direct mechanical coupling, as well as acoustic! But it's not my preference.
Like riding your bike with no seat. You become one with the machine.
@@solarfall2728 😂
Hi Paul! How is the new speakers going??? I was looking forward to the AN (Arnie Nudell) series but very recently heard you use a completely different name FR (Full Range) - Is the AN series relegated to the history books or still happening? What is the new range you recently mentioned? WHEN/what/how??? Very, very nosey!!!
PS: Thanks for the great content!!!
On my soft woodfloor I must isolate my speakers from the floor with "soft pillows". I use Sonic Design.
In wooden floors, to eliminate vibrations it is recommended to couple with spikes to a base of cement, granite, marble, etc. That is, we provide a support with weight, mass, to be able to couple.
I find that it keeps the speakers in place more than anything.
Nowhere in technology are spikes used to dampen vibration. Machine tools, cars, etc. Just because it doesn`t work. Any kind of rubber dampers work better.
Why decide if the unbeatable PRAT of spikes or the natural reproduction of isolation is best? Take both with the best pucks right now on the market: the Stack Audio AUVA‘s. Highly recommended!
If you can't tell the difference in sound, then seriously don't worry about it.. I can hear things that people can't believe I can hear! However, I won't be spending a fortune on a speaker that I feel my hearing can't appreciate. I already have a great system! sure i'd like a new one but I am not in a rush.
I believe that, as much as can be done, the speaker/cabinet needs to be installed in such a manner that no vibrations/cabinet resonances are transmitted through the speaker/cabinet support system to the floor/walls/ceiling and that at the same time the speaker's housing/cabinet be prevented from movement while the movement of the speaker's cone(s) produce the sounds which emanate from it (them). Failure to prevent the housing/cabinet motion is what causes smearing of the sound as well as other problems related to image focus, detail resolution and proper soundstaging. And I think there is some semantics at play when using the term decouple. Better to think in terms of what I have explained above and, through the use of materials suitable for the intended purposes and some simple physics principles, set about achieving what I have explained above.
It depends on the floor. If you have a hard floor like concrete, try mass loading / coupling with spikes. If you have a vibrating floor like floating wood then use absorbers. YMMV of course, but this is a good starting point for orientation. I just added absorbers under my Klipsch RF7-IIIs and now the bass has thump that wasn't there before. The energy that was going into the floor is now going into the sound wave. Definitely not a subtle change, but of course also not night and day difference. But I am not thinking about adding subwoofers anymore, so that's that.
Maybe you could try the hockey pucks and report back. :-)
@M Pi Spikes alone do NOT prevent transmission of vibrations/resonances. An antivibration material must be placed between the spike and the floor at some point to stop transmission. See comments and replies posted by W.
I use eq to adjust the bass. Gives you more adjustability.
Even 3 cm is slight difference there will be always a bit change of sounding with spikes and without because high on which set is positioned i between floor and ceiling s not the same. This height is quite essential in mixing low tones resonances with whole room. I do not think vibration of floor induced by speaker box which is relatively rigid and heavy are stronger than those induced by whole air in room which can often force distant furniture and glasses to ring.
I added spikes and I am getting cleaner and tight bass on Goldenears not sure how others would perform
I recently improved not just the bass but the entire sound stage by decoupling from the floor.
The San Francisco Audio Society in an interview with the Audiophiliac mentioned that if your speakers are on a cement slab in the basement adding an absorption barrier between the speaker and the cabinet helps to prevent the slab from becoming part of the problem. First tried dense foam between the the castor wheels on my speakers and the carpet over the slab. WOW. Much better. Ultimately I used rubber floor savers for under furniture.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
@@michaelporter1870 Thanks for sharing these pics. I believe you have effectively decoupled your speaker stand from the floor. The mass of concrete floating above the floor would absorb any vibration that makes it through the spike/disk/antivibration pad/ sandwich. This is precisely the approach I take when attempting to isolate smaller electronics from the world around them. Nice job.
@@user-od9iz9cv1w Thank you.
I hear both but I agree it decouples. I am a fan of spikes with carpet. My current speakers have spikes built in so I use them with floor pucks. I like the bass so I will stick with them.
If you agree with me that absorbers decouple then spikes do the opposite - they couple. Not talking about which is better here or doubting that using spikes in your case is a good thing, just trying to clarify those meanings.
@@econautx ask Pau, it will make for another video.
@M Pi Stop insulting other people in these comments and start to listen to their (better) arguments. The vast majority agrees with me on this issue and also explains the science behind it. Look it up ;)
Well, Paul, regrettably about the only thing you stated correctly here was that spiking a speaker to the floor tightens up the bass. Now you may prefer the looser more ballooning type of bass. I think you called an "audiophile bass" but I call it a "Me too" type of bass. IOW, one really needs to do little or nothing to achieve the average ho-hum me-too audiophile bass. In which case why even bother discussing it? BTW, just because everybody has a me-too bass does not make it more natural but only more common. In more extreme methods, a spiked speaker doesn't just give tighter bass. A tighter more well-defined bass is actually more natural (except in the audiophile world) and the improved or the tighter the bass, the more you should notice that other bass notes come onto the scene as well including bass notes previously inaudible. But more importantly, spiking about speaker is not limted to bass notes. When done properly or well-thought-out (rather than just token efforts) spiking a speaker will improve the entire playback presentation across the entire frequency spectrum. Not sure why you limited its benefit potential to just bass. Unless perhaps your experience with spiking speakers is quite limited and/or you've given it a token effort - which we are all guilty of.
I’m moving to an appartement soon. How can i prevent my 2:1 subwoofer irritate my new neighbours..in a best sollution..spikes with center coins or hard foam like Auralex?
Best thing is try various things and determine the sound
wise words
In my expewrience you dont want the speakers coupled to the floor.
Great great answer!
It has been claimed that spikes are "mechanical diodes" in which case they couple the speaker to the floor while isolating the speaker FROM the floor. That's not just semantics ( 0:54 ). Of course that crowd is also into spikes under equipment (I heard a difference...).
Also, in the case of carpet, coupling is definitely increased by spikes.
Spikes do not isolate, they will allow transmission of motion/vibration/resonance between the speaker and the floor unless some method of damping/movement prevention is incorporated between the speaker and the floor. In the case where the coefficients of friction for the floor and spike materials and the total contact areas between the spikes and the floor are sufficiently low to allow the spiked speaker to be pushed horizontally with little force, the speaker is isolated from lateral movement between the floor and the speaker, but it is not isolated from vibration/resonance transmission. Ideally, a speaker assembly (cone-driver/cabinet/(stand if used)/spikes/antivibration material/subbase-mass loader) needs to be set up in a way which will prevent any lateral movements (except for the speaker cone) and transmission of vibration/resonance between the speaker assembly and the floor. Decoupling (motion/vibration/resonance isolation, not physical isolation) from the floor without allowing movement of the speaker assembly is what needs to be achieved.
@@michaelporter1870 Reread what I wrote. I'm saying spikes are more interesting than a simple yes or no -- at least according to someone else's theory which I have mixed feelings about. Directional isolation. I can see how there might be enough asymmetry to the interface to communicate vibration without becoming a larger single vibrating mass like bolting the speaker to the floor, but "diodes" is a rather strong claim. But according to this concept, everyone else here is missing the whole point, so you might want to know the idea exists.
My floorstanders are on carpet covering cement. Spikes work best.
i think any floor that subject to vibration, not transmission of bass. say you have a floating wood floor. you may get vibrations (distortion from the floor). in that scenario I would use some type of isolation disk between the spike and the floor. Rug, yes spikes. solid surface like tile, I think spikes you create distortion. then again some type of disk to decouple from the floor. I've seen people lay a square of rug just under the speaker to couple it to the floor.
@M Pi I agree..
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
What are are herbies?
I would love to see Paul do a blind a B test between spikes and no spikes. I bet my mortgage he would fail.
100 percent
I was told by a speaker engineer that it is more about mass loading, rather than coupling.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
Nope, just depends on whether or not your a fan. You heard him.
@@Finn-McCool , not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate?
So will putting weights on the speakers help?
@@hansiangng2808, I would guess it might, but it may require a significant amount. Never hurts to try it, though.
Shouldn't speaker cabinets be designed and built so that no vibrations exist in the cabinet? In that case, no spikes would ever be needed, right? I have never used spikes, and I never will because of this. I instead trust the monitors/speakers I use to be designed and built correctly which should be equal to no cabinet vibrations.
Hmm... there are spikes that are marketed as the same design used to isolate vibrations in lathes used to shape multi million dollar jet engines, but in practice, spikes and / or pucks and other vibration controlling devices are a necessity in hi fi loudspeakers. If I didn't use one, my speakers start to wander around if I play Puppets and Justice era Metallica tracks above a certain volume.
It’s a first but I have to disagree with paul on this one. Spikes couple to the floor. Think of a soccer shoe with spikes underneath. Does it give the player more or less traction ? For the same weight, if you reduce the surface area you increase the pressure because the same weight is applied on a smaller surface.
But i agree with the fact that in most cases, decoupling is better.
@M Pi Wrong: if no antivibration material is incorporated between the speaker cabinet/stand assembly and the floor, vibrations will transfer from the floor to the assembly, its just that unless the vibrations are low enough in frequency and strong enough, they largely get ignored although they do affect the sound and are measurable with test equipment. Think of it like this: I rigidly attach by means of the the weight of the speaker cabinet/stand assembly through four points of contact (spikes) designed for minimal surface area contact. The four points will cause some degree of indentation into the floor material upon which they set unless the material is hard enough to be unaffected by the psi pressure exerted by the spikes (gravity-induced). If the material is hard enough to not be indented by the spikes, then it comes down to the coefficients of friction of the floor and spike materials and the total contact-surface areas between the spikes and the floor. The lower the coefficient of friction, the less coupling you have and the more likely the speaker cabinet/stand assembly is to move from the movements of the speaker cone. If the impulse of energy is driving the speaker cone forward and the cabinet/stand assembly is not held firmly in place, then the assembly will move every so slightly in an opposing direction from the speaker cone. This condition cause smearing of sound by causing changes in the propagation frequency of sound waves. Ideally you want no movement of the speaker holder/cabinet/stand assembly so that sound waves are consistently propagated at the intended frequencies. In the situation where the floor material is soft enough to allow for indentation by the pressure of the spikes and combined with sufficiently high coefficients of friction of the floor and spike materials, you are effectively coupling the speaker holder/cabinet/stand assembly to the floor to prevent it from moving (as just described) when very hard flooring material combined with very low coefficients are encountered. This coupling has the advantages of preventing most of the movements of the assembly but does not address the issue of speaker cabinet vibration resonances being transmitted to the floor nor the issue of floor vibrations/movements being transmitted to the assembly. Those issues are only addressed by the introduction of antivibration material placed somewhere between the assembly and the floor, and has to be done in a way to maintain the desired effect of no movement of the assembly. This is where mass loading is introduced if there is not enough mass of the assembly to contain movement. If you want to think about the principles on a grander scale, think about what is done with construction in areas of high seismic activity where shock-absorbing has to be incorporated to prevent earthquakes from destroying structures.
I have the option to use spikes or the rubber pads attached to outriggers on my speakers. (Monitor Audio Silver 300's). The spikes will screw on through holes in the pads to the outriggers.
I prefer not using the spikes. Now I have 2 reasons. Better Bass and no holes in our hardwood floors!
Those are nice speakers. MA does a good job with their metal tweeters. More listenable than most.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
What about spring pucks?
I built spiked platforms to go under my floor-standing speakers. The speakers themselves have rubber feet. So the rubber feet have a nice solid surface to stand on... 🤪🤪🤪
One OF my favorite HiFi shops used to sell big bags of shot that you could put on top of your speakers, they weighed several pounds. They made every speaker I heard them used on become clearer and with better bass. It’s the mass.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
I use spikes but underneath the carpet I installed 5 layers of rubber mats of about 1/8 of each layer
What about using sorbothane hemispheres?
I put my Big Speakers on castors. Think about it?
A good heavy speaker supported near its corners on something like 'Sorbothane' hemispheres will produce what my mechanical vibrations tutor called a 'seismic mass' - big weight on a soft spring with a bit of damping. Lets the speaker cabinet do its own thing.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
i think spikes on the floor are a very STUPID idea
I think the whole point of spikes is that (at least for a solid wood floor) they penetrate into the wood a bit, which provides some friction to avoid moving up and down. I don't care if this happens to my floor. If the floor is some other type that would be damaged by spikes, don't use them.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
Hey Paul, Have you ever been to a Car Audio Bass show (competition)??? Just for fun? you would be Worshipped ! ABACAB on 5k sounds Great !!! Lol
Should you spike your speakers?
Only after you score a touchdown!
And then go out and purchase replacements for the speakers you just trashed with the wrong kind of spiking, LOL.
Here is an interesting exchange I had with Max Townshend of Townshend Audio:
Michael Porter
Michael Porter
7 hours ago (edited)
Aside from the expense of the Seismic Isolation Podium (SIP), it is too spongy to prevent movement of the speaker cabinet/assembly due to the throw of the speaker voice coil which propagates sound waves unless a sizeable amount of mass loading is added. I would like to see these speakers set up as shown in this demo on a flat level vinyl tile floor driven at 90db pulsed output for various frequencies (start at 50hz and work through the audible spectrum in 50hz increments to 20,000hz) and use a frequency meter (which is insulated from sound transmission through everything except the air) set at 1 meter from the front of the speaker cone which is propagating the sound waves for the frequency being tested, and see what the differences are in the propagated frequencies between the speaker on spikes and the speaker on the SIP. I have come up with a solution which could be used for the speaker with spikes shown in this video for less than $50 + tax: two 2'x2'x2" concrete paver stones (90lb each) approx. cost $16.00; eight spike cones approx. cost $25.00; eighteen 2"x2"x7/8" antivibration pads approx. cost $5.00. Here is how to set up: I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
Max Townshend
Max Townshend
5 hours ago
The frequency would be identical as Newton's 3rd law applies. If you, as you suggest, the frequency changes, then how come the music from hung columns at rock concerts isn't weirdly distorted and lacking in intensity? Antivibration pads are far far too stiff, as they only start to isolate above 30-40Hz- we abandoned that approach in 1985 and went for the very soft springs which are 20dB+ down at 10Hz.
We must be doing something right as we got the highly coveted Product of the year from The Absolute Sound. www.townshendaudio.com/PDF/Townshend%20Seismic%20Podium%20-%20The%20Absolute%20Sound%20product%20of%20the%20year%202020%20_%20Speaker%20Vibration%20%20Isolation.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0LseZIOlLxaKI6D8MmrJZduXHkehZDVbfBBtKEgwvMnZzIzSyoQh4pclA
Michael Porter
Michael Porter
4 hours ago
@Max Townshend Sorry, you are wrong: if I were to suspend a speaker cone/driver devoid of its holder/cabinet assembly by, say, a string hanging down from a stationary point say 20' above in perfectly calm air and pulse it (when it is perfectly stationary and still) to propagate a sound wave, there will be a forward movement of the cone with a responding rearward movement of the cone/driver assembly similar to a rifle recoil when a bullet is fired. But, unlike the rifle recoil, the return movement of cone rearward will be responded to by the cone/driver assembly moving forward. The very movement of the cone/driver assembly rearward responding to the cone's forward movement will cause a frequency shift in the propagation of the sound wave. If you don't believe this, do the experiment and learn the truth for yourself.
Max Townshend
Max Townshend
4 hours ago
@Michael Porter Will the frequency go up or down?
Michael Porter
Michael Porter
4 hours ago
@Max Townshend Down when cone is pulsed forward.
Michael Porter
Michael Porter
4 hours ago
@Max Townshend Think about this: if what you are saying is true, then why aren't speakers suspended inside the speaker cabinet instead to being rigidly mounted?
Michael Porter
Michael Porter
3 hours ago (edited)
@Max Townshend Actually, to be perfectly fair, the amount of frequency shift that will occur using your SIP will depend on the total mass of the speaker/cabinet assembly and how far above the cradle of the SIP the speaker cone/driver propagating the sound is located. The greater the mass of the assembly, the smaller the shift in frequency will be. There will be no shift for cone/driver assemblies which are held rigid so that the only movement (as opposed to resonance vibration) in the speaker/cabinet's surrounding environment is the speaker cone propagating the sound waves. However, rigid mounting leads to the other issue of vibration/resonance transmission between speaker/cabinet assembly and floor/wall/ceiling (depending on mounting). That is precisely why some antivibration material needs to be incorporated at some location between the speaker/cabinet assembly and the floor/wall/ceiling while at the same time preventing movements of the speaker/cabinet assemble responding to the pulsing of the speaker cones.
Michael Porter
Michael Porter
3 hours ago (edited)
@Max Townshend I will make it really simple for you to understand: if you are traveling down the road at 60 mph and approaching a car honking its horn which is stationary and continue on past that car still honking its horn, the pitch that you hear will lower after you pass the car honking the horn. This is an example of frequency shift due to your motion relative to the stationary car horn honking. In the case of the speaker cone/driver assembly, the assembly is moving away from (rearward) its initial position, so that movement has to be subtracted from the forward movement of the speaker cone which will result a lowering (shift) in the frequency relative to the surrounding environment in front of that speaker.
Max Townshend
Max Townshend
57 minutes ago
@Michael Porter This is the Doppler effect, which has been debated on and off since the invention of the loudspeaker, especially full-range cones. Even your eardrum suffers from this. The trouble with rigid cabinet mounting is that the cabinet is not infinitely stiff and the ground is not infinitely rigid. This means that the cabinet vibrates like a plucked ruler in a vice. Watch the video carefully and all this is explained.
Michael Porter
Michael Porter
8 minutes ago (edited)
@Max Townshend Call it what you will, Doppler effect, it is still a frequency shift in the wave propagated by the speaker due to the addition or subtraction of motion relative to the movement of the speaker cone when pulsed to propagate a sound wave. The physics principle behind this has existed for as long as the universe has existed even if it wasn't known before being discovered. The advent of loudspeakers did not/could not change this principle of physics. There is no debate about the facts surrounding frequency shifts when motion is introduced as I have previously described. If you doubt this, consult a physics professor. The requirements to prevent motion of the speaker holder/cabinet while simultaneously preventing transfer/transmission of motion/vibration/resonance between the floor/wall/ceiling and the speaker/cabinet assembly means that both fixed stabilization of the speaker holder/cabinet/(stand if used) assembly as well as damping to prevent vibration/resonance between the assembly and the floor/wall/ceiling need to be incorporated. In the scenario I presented to you utilizing the spike/disc/antivibration pad/concrete paver/antivibration pad sandwich, the concrete paver (90lb) adds enough mass loading to the entire assembly placed on the floor and also has the effect of absorbing any possible vibration/resonance from the speaker cabinet which might make it through the top set of antivibration pads while the bottom set of antivibration pads will complete the elimination of vibration/resonance transfer/transmission to the floor.
I use IsoAcoustics footers. They work great
Same.
@M Pi yep, purely for credibility. I spent my hard earned money just because they look cool.
@M Pi I guess you sent yours back because you objectively couldn't hear a difference?? Did you notice anything at all?
@@walterstorm9221 It’s funny, Paul has no affiliation with ISO but still recommends them...
@@1wired4sound I initially got them to save my floor, but the imaging focused and the sound difference was more than I anticipated. Maybe it's organic snake oil :P
And then there's the vexed question of suspended floors....
An interesting question: an answer will be given if the parameters involving the suspension of the floor are presented. Waiting.
Spike couple, not decouple.
Spikes seem to be as controversial as interconnects! Isn’t it all a matter of your own pleasure in hearing your own system in your own room? There is no ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, imho.
It really depends on whether you are trying to recreate the exact sound/space recorded during the performance. The greater the precision of the resultant sound output compared to the sound/space environment during the recording, the better audiophile you become. IMHO.
There was a comment recently from a reviewer that (I paraphrase) he considers exact reproduction more important than a sense of reproducing the pleasure of the original performance. I couldn’t disagree more but I recognise that exact reproduction has gained a following in recent years, possibly to the detriment of musical pleasure. Personally, I think it comes down to a matter of whether the individual genuinely enjoys the music or takes pleasure in the mechanics of the reproduction system. I plant myself firmly in the former category. Though I have the greatest regard for his technical knowledge, I often feel Paul falls into the latter category.
@@andrewwebb4635 I consider both equally important and do not put myself in a camp that believes those two categories are mutually exclusive of one another. And instead of 'feeling' Paul falls into a particular category, why don't you just ask him?
You seem very uptight about this, Michael. Is it so vital an issue in the great scheme of things? I think we’ll just let it drop. I very much hope you enjoy music as well as an interest in the highest possible res! Incidentally, I had commented to Paul about this issue of music lover vs technology lover months ago but unfortunately with no response. I’ll just leave you with a last thought. I think it’s analogous to whether an individual enjoys driving for its own sake - the freedom of the road and travel - or whether it’s necessary for that person’s psyche to have the latest/best/fastest etc car, ie a social prop of some sort.
@@andrewwebb4635 It is more analogous to enjoying driving for its own sake coupled with having the necessary skill to require a vehicle which will allow full exercise of that skill at the greatest speeds/maneuverability attainable for the vehicle: you want the vehicle which will allow for the greatest extent of application of your skill. And I would say that I am passionate, not uptight, IMHO, thank you.
Really you want speakers to be floating on the stand using bungee cord alternatively get little disc candles feel them with blu tack and replace the spikes with large headed carriage bolts place a felt disc on top of the blu tack and stick it underneath the candle case if on hard floor best isolator you can get
Not the best.
iso pod isolates lol and spike couples you turned it around.
My tower speakers are heavy as hell! I just got me sets of caster wheels to construct some fitted dolly's for them. I may stain & poly some floor trim and attach around the sides. My curiosity here is if the casters will give the same effect as the spikes? They are 2" in diameter.
spikes on carpets; rubber boots on hard floors
I had been a firm believer in spikes until I saw Max Townshend's video (ua-cam.com/video/dW9-r83IvhI/v-deo.html) on loudspeaker decoupling. I have oak parquet on concrete floors and thought spikes (with spike shoes) would be the best solution. BUT then I decoupled the speakers from the floor and was gobsmacked at the freer less constricted sound, more bass, more upper frequency energy. So now I'm using silicon feet under all equipment and the system has never sounded so good in 20 years! Hollow or concrete floors, sound is still transmitted in the floor, unless you decouple. Check out Max Townshend'd video. All the best, Rob in Switzerland
Michael Porter
38 minutes ago
Here is an interesting exchange I had with Max Townshend of Townshend Audio which should shed a lot of light here:
Michael Porter
Michael Porter
7 hours ago (edited)
Aside from the expense of the Seismic Isolation Podium (SIP), it is too spongy to prevent movement of the speaker cabinet/assembly due to the throw of the speaker voice coil which propagates sound waves unless a sizeable amount of mass loading is added. I would like to see these speakers set up as shown in this demo on a flat level vinyl tile floor driven at 90db pulsed output for various frequencies (start at 50hz and work through the audible spectrum in 50hz increments to 20,000hz) and use a frequency meter (which is insulated from sound transmission through everything except the air) set at 1 meter from the front of the speaker cone which is propagating the sound waves for the frequency being tested, and see what the differences are in the propagated frequencies between the speaker on spikes and the speaker on the SIP. I have come up with a solution which could be used for the speaker with spikes shown in this video for less than $50 + tax: two 2'x2'x2" concrete paver stones (90lb each) approx. cost $16.00; eight spike cones approx. cost $25.00; eighteen 2"x2"x7/8" antivibration pads approx. cost $5.00. Here is how to set up: I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
Max Townshend
Max Townshend
5 hours ago
The frequency would be identical as Newton's 3rd law applies. If you, as you suggest, the frequency changes, then how come the music from hung columns at rock concerts isn't weirdly distorted and lacking in intensity? Antivibration pads are far far too stiff, as they only start to isolate above 30-40Hz- we abandoned that approach in 1985 and went for the very soft springs which are 20dB+ down at 10Hz.
We must be doing something right as we got the highly coveted Product of the year from The Absolute Sound. www.townshendaudio.com/PDF/Townshend%20Seismic%20Podium%20-%20The%20Absolute%20Sound%20product%20of%20the%20year%202020%20_%20Speaker%20Vibration%20%20Isolation.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0LseZIOlLxaKI6D8MmrJZduXHkehZDVbfBBtKEgwvMnZzIzSyoQh4pclA
Michael Porter
Michael Porter
4 hours ago
@Max Townshend Sorry, you are wrong: if I were to suspend a speaker cone/driver devoid of its holder/cabinet assembly by, say, a string hanging down from a stationary point say 20' above in perfectly calm air and pulse it (when it is perfectly stationary and still) to propagate a sound wave, there will be a forward movement of the cone with a responding rearward movement of the cone/driver assembly similar to a rifle recoil when a bullet is fired. But, unlike the rifle recoil, the return movement of cone rearward will be responded to by the cone/driver assembly moving forward. The very movement of the cone/driver assembly rearward responding to the cone's forward movement will cause a frequency shift in the propagation of the sound wave. If you don't believe this, do the experiment and learn the truth for yourself.
Max Townshend
Max Townshend
4 hours ago
@Michael Porter Will the frequency go up or down?
Michael Porter
Michael Porter
4 hours ago
@Max Townshend Down when cone is pulsed forward.
Michael Porter
Michael Porter
4 hours ago
@Max Townshend Think about this: if what you are saying is true, then why aren't speakers suspended inside the speaker cabinet instead to being rigidly mounted?
Michael Porter
Michael Porter
3 hours ago (edited)
@Max Townshend Actually, to be perfectly fair, the amount of frequency shift that will occur using your SIP will depend on the total mass of the speaker/cabinet assembly and how far above the cradle of the SIP the speaker cone/driver propagating the sound is located. The greater the mass of the assembly, the smaller the shift in frequency will be. There will be no shift for cone/driver assemblies which are held rigid so that the only movement (as opposed to resonance vibration) in the speaker/cabinet's surrounding environment is the speaker cone propagating the sound waves. However, rigid mounting leads to the other issue of vibration/resonance transmission between speaker/cabinet assembly and floor/wall/ceiling (depending on mounting). That is precisely why some antivibration material needs to be incorporated at some location between the speaker/cabinet assembly and the floor/wall/ceiling while at the same time preventing movements of the speaker/cabinet assemble responding to the pulsing of the speaker cones.
Michael Porter
Michael Porter
3 hours ago (edited)
@Max Townshend I will make it really simple for you to understand: if you are traveling down the road at 60 mph and approaching a car honking its horn which is stationary and continue on past that car still honking its horn, the pitch that you hear will lower after you pass the car honking the horn. This is an example of frequency shift due to your motion relative to the stationary car horn honking. In the case of the speaker cone/driver assembly, the assembly is moving away from (rearward) its initial position, so that movement has to be subtracted from the forward movement of the speaker cone which will result a lowering (shift) in the frequency relative to the surrounding environment in front of that speaker.
Max Townshend
Max Townshend
57 minutes ago
@Michael Porter This is the Doppler effect, which has been debated on and off since the invention of the loudspeaker, especially full-range cones. Even your eardrum suffers from this. The trouble with rigid cabinet mounting is that the cabinet is not infinitely stiff and the ground is not infinitely rigid. This means that the cabinet vibrates like a plucked ruler in a vice. Watch the video carefully and all this is explained.
Michael Porter
Michael Porter
8 minutes ago (edited)
@Max Townshend Call it what you will, Doppler effect, it is still a frequency shift in the wave propagated by the speaker due to the addition or subtraction of motion relative to the movement of the speaker cone when pulsed to propagate a sound wave. The physics principle behind this has existed for as long as the universe has existed even if it wasn't known before being discovered. The advent of loudspeakers did not/could not change this principle of physics. There is no debate about the facts surrounding frequency shifts when motion is introduced as I have previously described. If you doubt this, consult a physics professor. The requirements to prevent motion of the speaker holder/cabinet while simultaneously preventing transfer/transmission of motion/vibration/resonance between the floor/wall/ceiling and the speaker/cabinet assembly means that both fixed stabilization of the speaker holder/cabinet/(stand if used) assembly as well as damping to prevent vibration/resonance between the assembly and the floor/wall/ceiling need to be incorporated. In the scenario I presented to you utilizing the spike/disc/antivibration pad/concrete paver/antivibration pad sandwich, the concrete paver (90lb) adds enough mass loading to the entire assembly placed on the floor and also has the effect of absorbing any possible vibration/resonance from the speaker cabinet which might make it through the top set of antivibration pads while the bottom set of antivibration pads will complete the elimination of vibration/resonance transfer/transmission to the floor.
I use Hockey Pucks. Seriously !
I'm a punker too !
Iso acoustics is a great product for a proper footing for you speakers 😊
Will not listen without some good old Gaia's :) But try Ansuz Darkz too
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
Spikes on a hard floor would allow the speakers to move.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
I agree.
I have found the best sound from my system is achieved through the use of spikes/discs/antivibration pads/concrete pavers: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1w4HcZuThrTxImadujOdftffK3s_2K3?usp=sharing . If you have wood flooring or some other flooring material which is relatively smooth and hard, and you don't want to ruin it with concrete pavers being set upon it, use the antivibration pads under the concrete pavers, one near each corner and one in the center.
@@michaelporter1870 Thanks for the tip. Nice to know.
drop them down on a concrete slab. my favorite!
Paul is confused... he did spike Infinity speakers :)
I'd imagine some hockey pucks would do the trick. 1-3 bucks each.
Only if you cover your floor with a sheet of ice first.
I wonder if they still make the solid foam summer time pucks? A real puck is too hard/ solid.
@@9canadianboy Not as hard as spikes or the feet either wooden or metal.
2:27 ...... no IKEA stands?
@spentron1 OK, let's go listen to speakers set on the floor using spikes and have a vibratory compactor (drive.google.com/file/d/1qmhbi6wjMxGFOAyJ6XM5Fm1fiexCZD2J/view?usp=sharing) operating outside 50' away: guaranteed the vibrations being produced by that compactor will transmit up those spikes to the speakers!!