This is our goal. We try and take the complicated and make it simple for people to understand. Sometimes we succed and sometimes we do not. Thank you for letting us know your impressions.
Here’s one solution for speakers that are too big for stands. Put 3/4 inch thick industrial felt (F3 grade) under them to deaden the connection to the floor. My cabinets are made with 1.5 inch thick MDF, braced internally and filled with sound absorbing polyester fluff. They are 12x12x26 with 8 inch woofers and weigh 70 lbs each. Each cabinet sits on four round felt pads, each one 5.5 inches in diameter. The pads not only deaden any resonance, they protect the gloss finish. There is not a problem with noise transmission.
Speaker platforms can provide three functions. They can elevate which will improve room response. They can also be designed to absorb excess energy. Finally, as you have noted, a platform can isolate surface areas from noise transmission.
So why are Bosendorfer Imperial Grand Pianos designed with no hardware on the the legs? They are designed to transmit the lowest frequencies to the stage floor to turn the stage into part of the piano's sound board.
They are using the interaction of the piano / floor to create more energy which may or may not contribute to overall sound quality. It should never be the goal of any instrument to create quantity over quality. We see this all the time with live performances and subwoofers. Live performances are all about output or quantity. They must radiate energy across a large area to cover the audience. This is not the case with small room acoustics. Our goal with small room acoustics is definition, separation, and quality. It should never be about quantity since the container you are placing all of this energy within (room) can not support it below 100 Hz.
Interesting. My subwoofer is on the floor but doesn't sound impressive when I sit on my chair. When I stand up in the same spot, the sub sounds amazing! And that is the case throughout the room. At standing height it sounds much much better. If I elevate the subwoofer, will I elevate the "good sound" even further or could it also end up sounding better sitting? Cheers
A, Low frequency energy sources are location dependent based upon output and room size and volume. To test this place your sub woofer in room center. Move it back and forth towards the side walls. Move it back and forth towards the rear and front walls. Raise it up off the floor 12",18", and 24"
B, Vibration transmission reduction is a good start. Now, raise your speakers to improve room response. After that is achieved, absorb excess energy at source.
Ive always been a big fan of using 4 thick rubber feet, and attaching that to the bottom of a tower speaker/subwoofer. Rather cheap, and elevating things just a few inches makes a world of difference. IE hearing the speaker, not the room.
Hi B, Yes, elevating the speaker minimizes the comb filter effect from the floor to listener. Finding the correct height to seated position ratio is the key. We elevate listening and speaker position.
It was a good video. I would mention one thing, a good well-designed speaker will not vibrate your hand when you place it on. A good well-designed speakers cabinet will be sonically dead. Or as close to eight as possible.
Thanks for giving me a new way to think about my speakers. Although I'm sure not all speakers are meant to be put on stands I can see how having energy absorbing material or energy neutral material below the speaker changes the dynamics.
G, Speakers are designed in a reflection free environment. The end user then takes those speakers designed in a reflection free environment and places them in a reflection full environment. Any adjustments you can make to improve that relationship are welcome and should be employed.
2:00 I've always thought that frequencies below round about 100 Hz cannot be localized anyway as long as the wave length is more than any of the rooms dimensions. I'd say there is something going wrong if one can hear and localize the sound coming _from the subwoofer_.
Understood. So as the low frequencies might not be localized in any case, the vibrations in the room caused by the speaker do color the sound and cause reverberation? Thank you for your reply.
I have my monitor on some isoacoustic stands sitting on my studio desk and I can feel the bass just vibrating thru my table down to the floor and vibrating my wall and so on.. so those stands don’t seem to work is there any way I can stop it vibrating my wall and floor? I have bass traps behind them already too
I’m building a room within a room new studio space in a basement with ceramic tile floors over concrete with detra membrane in between... I’m wanting to build a DIY subwoofer for this much smaller space than my previous one. It’s will be 17 x 9 ft once done. The ceiling will be about 7foot 3 inches. I like to produce sub heavy music that goes down to 20 hz at times. The biggest question I have is sealed vs ported box ? I’m leaning towards sealed. I would appreciate your perspective on this. I’m interested in isolating my build once done and having it angled towards me and in phase with the other main monitors.
A few months back I bought a 2nd hand pair of Yamaha ns 1000m speakers . I got some stands with them. Not pretty but solid The treble was clear , bass good , but mid sounded a little peaky . Anyway just as an experiment, I put them on the floor. The peaky sound had gone and the depth and tone improved . Admittedly you cant turn it too loud ( but you couldn't anyway) but it sounds great . Not boomy but much better energy...like live music. At my age all I wish to do is enjoy myself 👍
Keep all speakers away from floors, walls, and ceilings. You bring in room gain (distortion) by locating an energy producing source next to a room boundary surface.
@@AcousticFields Maybe, but I don't care , it sounds great. I've been into this hobby 45 years and for this speaker in my room , it sounds better . I listened to Harry Belefonte , Prince, Velvet Underground , Elvis, The Stooges , The Zombies. It lived & breathed , The Yamaha is a sealed box .
I put my speakers on the floor close to the wall and I get good base and high since the focus of energy is all in the front, sounds more solid (or whole). In my observation unless it’s a big and high powered speakers the best spot is on the floor close to the wall.
You are confusing quantity with quality. Placing speakers closer to wall surfaces creates more distortion. The technical term is SBIE which stands for speaker boundary interference effect.
@@jayemjayswatosville937 well, you never heard properly positioned speakers in a treated room everybody but you knows that walls are natural enemies of speakers and good sound measure it on the listening place and if it's not a flat curve it's bad - and yes it takes some time after proper room treatment to get used to a sound as it is meant
We have a hard floor and big box 3-way floor speakers with 15" bass drivers. I can put a rug down and it tones down the extra bass a bit, but I was considering building bases for them to bring them up about a foot. It would put the 1" dome tweeter right about ear level while sitting and put that bass driver about 20" up. That's why I'm watching, I got an idea, now I want to hear the pros opinion before I waist a bunch of time and money. If anyone has any thoughts. Thanks.
But my speakers are 155 lbs each and the height of the drivers is optimized for the speaker being on the floor. For improved sound, the speakers came with spiked feet and metal posts for connecting the back of each speaker to the wall, which I have never used. The spikes are for when being used on carpeted floors. I actually have had to elevate my speakers slightly to avoid blocking our double doors. I was worried about raising them but had no choice. Why would speaker makers produce a high end speaker and leave out the necessary internal insulation that prevents the problem described in this video?
A bit of a story. I was given some Rank Arena floor standing speakers many years ago. I set them up on my pile carpet floor but found they lacked bass. I didn't know a lot at the time but knew audiophiles like to mount speakers on stands and or carpet spikes. So, I installed spikes and vola, I had bass. But what I had done was transmit the cabinet vibrations into the timber floor. In effect, turning my floor into a giant bass resonator. It stayed that way for quite a while. At some later date, I swapped these out for Polk 10Bs that I inherited. The cables these came with were old and dirty so I put them aside to re-terminate later. Meanwhile, I just used my existing cables. That sound was quite disappointing to what I had previously heard from the 10Bs. It wasn't until I cleaned up the original cables and swapped them in that the 10Bs came to life with clarity and a really nice full spectrum tonality. These are in fact the nicest sounding speakers I have ever owned. I had been really really skeptical about cables making much of a differences but here was the proof. So I put the Rank Arenas on thicker gauge cables and removes the spikes and they had bass now. Not only that but it was good and tight bass and better clarity overall. Even though they were sitting on the same carpet as before, I had never heard them sound so good. Tonality wise, they are of their time of course. The point of this is that there is a lesson here. While you may think that something is an improvement, it isn't necessarily addressing the real problem and therefore, is not getting you closer to optimal performance. In fact it may be taking you in the wrong direction. It turns out that speakers should be mounted solidly so that the cabinet resists movement. However, this needs to be done in a way that also isolates cabinet vibrations form structures. Stands and spikes need to provide firm stability but their implementation needs to also provide isolation. There I've said it twice. An amazingly simple and most effective way to provide that isolation and hold the cabinet solidly in place on the stand or spikes is with nothing more than a thin amount of blu tack between cabinet and stand or each spike. On the subject of speaker position. It is often suggested to not place speakers near a back wall. This is not correct. Corners should be avoided but surfaces are reflectors and if the reflected sound is out or phase by less than 50 ms, that will be perceived as lacking clarity. but greater than 50 ms is perceived as resonance (a positive), The cut off distance for this is about 8m from a wall. So, unless you are in a auditorium, your unlikely to achieve this minimum distance from a wall. In really, the ideal solution is to have the cabinets set into the wall so that the face plate is flush with the wall so the sound wave radiates along the surface rather than reflecting off it. Usually the practical solution is to keep them as close to the back wall as possible without crowding rear ports. This way, most of the back wall reflections strike the wall at a very shallow angle and are well dissipated by the time they reach you. Of course, you still have the other walls, floor and ceiling to contend with but it means you have effectively dealt with one of them and pile carpet is your floor bounce friend. Soft furnishing are helpful absorbers but it's nice to retain at least some room resonance. You really don't want to go padding out the whole room.
Ken, Elevating source and attenuating energy with the proper technology under source will improve room response. Every room's usage and size determines distances for set up. It is difficult to make generalizations about all set ups and rooms.
Is it better or worse to put them in the sidewall ceiling corners angled down with 8ft ceilings in a non critical listening enviroment? Or what about front wall ceiling corners?
A, Elevate, isolate, attenuate. Those are the three variables we can achieve. Here is a link to our speaker platform which does all three: www.acousticfields.com/product/speaker-platform-csp/
We need to keep energy producing sources away from surface areas. We do not want them transferring energy into the structure and turning the structure into a speaker. Raising it off the floor will also improve response within the room.
If you can hear where your subwoofer is, then it is distorting. Mine is at the opposite end of the room to the main speakers yet it integrates perfectly. Nobody who listens to music here is aware that there is a subwoofer, and even when they know they say that all the music appears to be coming from the speaker. I've equalised things with Sonarworks, which reports flat response down to 20Hz. I have acoustic treatment on some of the walls - 4 inches of rockwool in front of a 4 inch air space. This effectively removes the room modes. A thick lambswool rug covering the space between speakers and listeners kills slap echo. And the floor is concrete, so no speaker energy gets transmitted into that.
I have dipole speakers with an open baffle. The subwoofers (Linkwitz LxMini) are opposite firing. I plan to install new flooring in the listening room which is 14 X 17 X 9. I am considering LVP (Luxury Vinyl Planks) which has a foam pad underlayment. It will be floating on top of a wood subfloor with an additional 1/2" particle board underlayment. There will also be an area rug (perhaps acoustically rated). My concern is the floating floor and whether it will vibrate when playing loud bass down to 35Hz. A glue down floor is an option, but then the choice of patterns and expense become factors. Will the dipole woofers mitigate my floor vibration concern? I appreciate your advice. Stan
@@AcousticFields The dipole subs can manage 35 Hz at 90 to 95dbs. The laminate floor is 10mm thick with a 2mm foam underlayment. There will be a 1" granite slab to isolate the subs from the floor. The subs are down firing. An area rug will encompass 30% of the floor area. My concern is whether vibration will occur with a floating floor. I am open to consider other options for the floor (though the laminate is my first choice) including glue down, if not overkill. I am not aware of any experiments to evaluate the acoustic issues with such floors. There is no need to isolate the sound below the floor, since the only residents below are termites. Thanks for your thoughts on this issue. Stan
J, Raise it off the floor at least 18" . You must isolate and absorb energy at the same time. Here is out sub platform which does both. www.acousticfields.com/product/subwoofer-platform-absorber/
If you're dead set on setting your speakers on the floor, here's a quick way to make mass based isolation pads: 4 inch solid concrete construction blocks. That's it you're done. $3 each at the hardware store. If you want to protect your speakers from scuffs, add a piece of cloth or felt between the blocks and the speaker. Or if you want them to look pretty: Wearing safety glasses, hammer away any flashing or protrusions. Coat with plaster of paris. This will fill in all the voids, and sharpen the corners after sanding. Sand flat with 120 grit sandpaper. Spray paint whatever color, maybe add a clear coat. If you're using these on a desk, hot glue some felt feet to the bottom. Boom. Mass based isolation.
Concrete is a good isolating material but does very little absorption at lower frequencies. You can achieve both with our carbon technology. Here is the link: www.acousticfields.com/product/subwoofer-platform-absorber/
Ideally, a speaker's cabinet energy should be able to escape and the floor should not receive any of it so neither resonates. With spikes and soft floor - energy escapes, and not much returns to cabinet, With spikes and high density concrete/tile floor most of the energy returns to cabinet. Rubber feet/pads are not much different than spikes, but slightly more energy can return to speaker cabinet, custom foam or spring dampers for specific weight is probably the best. If listening volume is medium, none of damping/isolating really matters
The speaker sound comes from the cabinet, driver, and the electronics. All must be designed to compliment each other for the desired output quality. There are two approaches to product design. You can design for a specific price point to try and capture additional market share or you can design for the ulimate sound quality that can be acheived based upon current technologies. Both have there strong and weaker points.
Sub woofer height is directly related to room size and volume. In our studio, we have three subs. One is 18" high, one 24", and one 36". With an 8' ceiling height, I would start at 18". Make sure the platform is low frequency absorbing and vibration reducing.
would a nice wood trunk make a good stands for a bookshelf speaker please? I also have a floor standing Focal on spikes. Does that need to be elevated or spikes are good already? any help is appreciated.
Sir, this test is about raising/isolating. Not sure if you saw this test previously, But I definitely confused on isolation after this. Is this a test that you were describing? According to this test nothing is changing in terms of freq. Sorry for my ignorance here, I,m a doctor of naturopathy not a doctor of acoustica. -)) ethanwiner.com/speaker_isolation.htm
@@melgibbson8955 Added January 6, 2018: "Speaker isolation came up in a Facebook audio group, and someone posted THIS video that further confirms competent speaker cabinets don't vibrate enough to transfer energy." Excellent article and I do tend to agree with him but how do we know he didn't pull a fast one on us just to try to get people to go to his website to purchase bass traps?
Theoretically I do agree. But in my (listening) situation, my very heavy and large speakers are on small undercarriages about 5 cm above the floor. This, in my personal opinion sounds best. They are simple too large to put them on high(-er) stands.
They sound better for many reasons. First, you have decoupled them from the floor. This reduces vibration transmission to the floor. Secondly, you have elevated them off the floor which will improve room response. Thirdly, if you decoupled and elevated, you now need to absorb excess low-frequency energy within the riser if possible. The best place to do that is as close to source as possible. You now need to increase the listening position height to match the speakers for more improvement. Getting quality sound within a room is all about doing a lot of little thangs correctly and in the proper order.
Very interesting....do i need a base? as the floorstanding speakers i have are already separated from direct contact with the laminate floor (on top of concrete) by a built in plinth on top of spikes ? Mission SX4s
C, You can elevate, isolate, and attenuate with a platform. Elevation improves room response, isolation reduces noise transmission, and attenuation absorbs cabinet vibrations and low frequency energy.
what with floor speakers that have their membranes at the top of the cabinet . as many 2.5 way has . I have ProAc 3.8 and they are quite high and membranes sits high up
"Coupling" the speakers to the floor will drain some excess energy from the cabinets while more importantly mass loading them, keeping them stationary in time, which increases Q and prevents smearing the high frequencies due to micro and macro movements. Now, unless it's a poorly built structure and a poorly built enclosure, the floor is sound (pun intended) and will be just fine as a means to improve sound quality. Pay attention to the floor joists so you can couple the speakers directly to them. The closer to the wall, the better (within reason obviously). Decoupling the speaker or sub from its support surface would give the opposite effect, and wouldn't be my first choice in virtually any situation.
DJ, Why couple the speakers to the floor to drain energy from the cabinet. Why bring a larger surface area into the equation? Place it on a platform that does threes critical things; Elevate, attenuate, Isolate.
Scott, as you're a DJ I'm gonna assume you want that extra bass you would get from 'coupling'. Especially from a live sound perspective as you will get more bang for your buck. But in the audiophile/studio world, we're trying to stay true to the source material, and dont want to invite distorted or coloured artifacts into the signal.
@@Big_Old_Bondy I can appreciate the assumption but no, that's not the case. Yes, I am a DJ by trade and have been around very high-end sound systems, both pro audio and home audiophile. Do what you wish. I speak from experience. Just like you, I am looking for the most accurate sound reproduction. Some people want to sell things. Try it both ways, using the criteria I summarized above, and sell your platform when done. Yes, elevating one sub to help even the response of room modes is good advice, but it doesn't require a specialized platform. Make sure it's mass loaded and coupled to the floor. Again, this assumes it's a solid floor and structure.
@@AcousticFields Coupling the system to the floor should not add more resonance if it is sound and done properly. It will drain excess energy from any cabinet, especially a lossy one, like an LS3/5A or similar. This is a good thing. Most important, it will make things stationary, unlike the best isolation, which will prevent smearing the sound. If you are setting up in a very old home using a suspended floor that is poorly supported, then isolation might give better results. This is my anecdotal opinion and the physics is sound. Nevertheless, do what you wish.
@No Name With all do respect, when a band or orchestra sets up and plays live, do they decouple themselves from the floor and room? No. That being said, a reproduction should be accurate and isolation will prevent distortion. However, how good is the isolation? And no speaker cabinet is resonance free and dissipating that energy (distortion) into denser structures will reduce the fundamental and weaken its amplitude. This solid foundation will also minimize movement to prevent time and frequency distortion.
if you play the chello, the whole body resonates. properly designes acoustically active cabinet speaker designs are not always something to fear about. thats why real wood cabinets sound way better than mdf or plastic speakers. thats why tonewood exist on this planet. its a huge advantage to build around specific wood types.
We use plywood "skins" for the insides of our rooms. The multiple layered playwood reduces vibration transfer and provides the proper front wall densities for of CAW process. www.acousticfields.com/carbon-absorber-wall/
Eventho this is old... i have this “Shelf” under my tv, u know were you usqually put your ps4, but I could fit my Sonos SUB in there... so there it is, i was wondering, does it take damage over time or is it a ok.. 😬
J, Never place an energy source where the energy is trapped between two small distances. Think of your shelf as a "sound prison" . Sound energy must be free and unrestricted.
Thank you for the beautifully straightforward explanation. I have very heavy speakers (Canton CT1000's) on a solid shelf but not sure of the best material to isolate them. Minimal contact with the shelf is the way to go?
I am glad to have found your video, thanks for sharing. You may be the best to ask, do you know why the speaker manufacturers place the base driver at the bottom? The LF waves do go about137 degrees in all directions and there by also down toward the floor, bouncing directly up again, with mudding as a result.
Thanks a lot for answering! Glad that I am not the only one wondering:-) My idea is to place the base in a 45 deg towards the sealing, above the tweeter in a normal high speaker so that the tweeter still are in the height of the ears. In that way, I do think that you minimize the reflections most.
F, Positioning of low-frequency sources in small rooms has always been an issue. The issue with most suggestions is that they assume no low-frequency management within the room. If you treat your room with proper low- frequency absorption, positioning becomes much easier.
You are completely correct, most do just bye a speaker and let that be that. But even if one are using your guaranteed great products, I think that the manufacturers should try to avoid most of the problem in the first place, then would your product have even better condition to make the sound pure perfection. :-)
F, One would think that but I know a lot of these designers and have asked them just that question. Most tell me it is about appearance and size. Go figure.
I was thinking of isolating with some form of stone. Some recommend granite, others slate. Is that the way to go? (spiked stands onto the stone). Thanks.
@@AcousticFields Thank you. My listening room is being built from scratch. Would supporting the speakers on iron bars set into the wall be a feasible way to go?
Mr Dennis, thank you for your great explanation, but I have a question about, what kind of floor material do you refer ?, that affect happens with a concrete floor?
Just had a question : If placing a diaphramatic absorber under your speakers is a good idea, how come manufacturers dont build it into the bottom of speakers??? Not criticizing your knowledge, just curious.
Setting your speakers directly on the floor without spikes or isolation is very detrimental to sound quality but FYI according to the laws of physics, energy can not be created nor destroyed, only transformed. Therefore speakers are not energy producing devices!
J, Speakers are energy producing devices as far as the room is concerned. All the room sees is energy whether it's from a speaker or instrument or voice.
A, The radiation patterns of speakers are part of the design parameters by the designer. A dipole radiates energy from both front and rear surfaces to create more energy which is a combination of reflected energy from the rear wall and the front of speaker. I do not subscribe to the philosophy that more is better.
By doing things like putting speakers such as bookshelf speakers that lack low end response on floor shelves, you can emulate more proper frequency response that the speaker ought to have. The same for vise versa when putting speakers with weak high end higher in elevation. In the end though, this whole subject is a matter of subjective taste.
I understand that you're basing this off of accuracy of studio sound intention. If you're horribly concerned with that, then there is some basis there. But if you're not an audiophile and you just want to shape the sound for yourself, there is nothing incorrect about this.
P, Our goal is to minimize distortion both room and equipment so that the sound quality can shine through. Quality sound in any room is a combination of doing many things correctly but more importantly in the correct order. Equipment set up is critical to this process.
Well sure. Though, I would argue that unless whatever distortion that is there is actively or overtly imbalancing the frequencies to the untrained ear, distortion may not necessarily be a bad thing. Distortion can often even be used to color the sound in a similar way as an eq can, according to taste.
Hey mate. You seem to know a lot about sound and hi-fi. Have you heard the phantom golds by devialet? The speaker cabinet is a sphere so vibration is practically non existent. To me they sounded much better than anything I've heard in a while. Any thoughts?
M, Internal cabinet resonances are always an issue with speakers. What are speakers? They are very small rooms and are plagued with the same resonances as larger rooms. Different cabinet designs are a direct response to those resonances. I have not heard that brand,
I’m not sure it’s really that huge of a deal because the speaker manufacturer usually has taken into account that the speaker is going to be, well, stood on the floor. I just finished making a tennis ball drum riser for my e-drum kit which was killing my neighbor downstairs. Not from the amplified sound, but from the actual beating of the pads. After making it I got an accelerometer app and tested things. As expected, the vibration from hitting the pads was reduced to almost zero on the floor. But I decided to see what my stereo speakers were doing while I was at it. There was surprising very little vibration in the floor right next to the speakers, while if the phone was placed on the speaker cabinet itself, the vibrations were off the chart. I think most of the vibrations a neighbor will experience from a stereo speaker is going to be when the sound hits drywall, which flexes and sends the vibration through the studs, which then travels to the neighbors wall and turns their drywall into a speaker. Anyway, the vibrations I measured on the floor next to the speakers was roughly that of tapping your fingers on the floor next to the phone with the app running. The speakers, at a moderately loud level.
my speakers r way to heavy to lift off the floor. when i moved home the removal guys couldnt even lift them and took 2 of them just tilt it enough to get the sack truck under them to move them. they pump out 2,000 watts and have them as my front speakers on my dolby atmos home cinema setup. Makes it feel a lot better as the floor shakes when earthquakes or explosions r going off in films. So not only do i get the surround sound i get the vibrations as well. So they r staying on the floor lol.
vibrations are shit for sound quality! if you want vibrations there are devices for your seat without shake the whole room and everything in it starting to make noise
Place the sub woofer in the center of the room and move backwards and forwards in 12" intervals. Use the same procedure from side to side. Stay with the same source material for this voicing procedure.
@@AcousticFields THANK YOU for the reply, You don't have to read this message as its a LOT longer than it was supposed to be so its fine if you dont read/reply! But if you could you PLEASE help me with a couple of other things?? I don't understand part of what you said & there is another issue I Pray you can help me with as I cant put my subs/speakers in the middle of my room & I'm also not sure if you meant literally in the "center" of my room or did you mean against the wall & in the middle of the wall as opposed to the left or right? I cant put them in the center of my room (if that's what you meant) because I use a VR (virtual reality) headset & need to be able to move around the room without running into anything. The other issue is I have quite a few subs/speakers & they take up a lot of room. It would probably help if I tell u what I have & most my subwoofers are "Car audio" subs & car audio amplifiers as I was only on a budget & I already owned a few subwoofers & amplifiers & the rest I bought because the "car audio" stuff was cheaper than the same thing in "home" stereo gear. So I run the car audio subs on power converters (converting 240V to 12V) & the car audio I have is: 5x 15" subs & 2x 12" subs, then the home stereo gear I have is: 2x 15" subs, 2x 10" subs & then 1x 12" speaker, 6x 7" Speakers & 4x 5.5" speakers. The boxes for the 15" subs are about the standard size for a 15" subwoofer, I built the boxes for the 5x 15" car subs & they are ported with an "shelf" style port as it made a HUGE improvement over sealed boxes, but I have noticed the sound (mainly the bass & mids) get a LOT louder or quieter depending on where I stand in my room & most the 15" subwoofers are on the floor, but I did put 4 screws underneath a couple of the boxes to raise them off the floor since I saw one of your videos about having speakers directly on the floor or having feet on them, Im not sure if it made any difference, I think they might be a bit louder. I really just need to know, is it maybe just best to have then all in one place in the room & would it be better to raise them up instead of basically having them on floor level, would eye/ear level be the best height? Because my best friend a few years ago was given a 15" pioneer car subwoofer (Pioneer 15inch 350W RMS subwoofer, I had the same model in my car) & he hooked it up to a Very cheap ($40!) & very small 2.1 channel home theater (u know those cheap, small units for TV's) it only came with a tiny, cheap 4" subwoofer & 2x 5" speakers & he wired the sub to the 4" subs wires & put the 15" sub on top of a very tall "corner" TV cabinet in the corner of the room & faced it backwards, (he knew I did that in my cars & it made the subs a lot louder, at least in cars) the cabinet was also so tall it nearly touched the ceiling & so that's where the subwoofer was, I barely expected it to work but instead it was amazing! It was almost as loud as the 15" subs I had in my cars (Which was extremely loud). But it was almost as loud as all the subwoofers I have combined & I'm 100% sure its ALL because of where I have them placed in my room. So do you know if putting the subwoofers up very high makes a big difference? Or should I have them on the floor, al eye/ear level, all in one corner or in the middle of a wall?
Wil, With low frequency energy you do not hear anything. It a process of feeling through bone conductance. Raising a sub off the floor can have a 2-4 dB impact on room response which is very "audible" and felt. Remember that achieving sound quality is the direct result of doing a lot of little things in the correct order.
What it comes down to is buy better speakers. People that need to know this stuff about their cheap speakers, are not watching this in the first place.
B, It has nothing to do with speaker quality. Elevating the speaker will improve room response, attenuating low frequency energy from the low frequency driver which is close to the floor is always welcome and minimizing floor to speaker noise transmission is audible.
They become audible? By the speaker cabinet vibrations or? Haha... funny, because... 1: Speaker cabinets are built to NOT vibrate (oh my god.. this you don't get???) 2: At the volume you need to create the smallest cabinet vibrations you could not hear any sounds from speaker cabinet vibrations, and this is just pure logic that my 15 year old daughter understands. Drop a needle on the floor while playing loud music and see if you can hear it hit the floor... However, you might create audible vibrations in objects in the room that rattle because of the sound pressure level the woofer produce. . 3: If you put a glass of water on top of your speaker cabinet you won't see any water vibrations, and if you do then consider returning the speakers to the dealer. I have been an audio engineer for over 30 years and worked in many studios, with TV broadcasting and radio... so... Stop telling lies to people, and also get your audio basics right before doing a video about BS products. Other people should not learn from stupidity... my god...
You have bouight into the nonsense everyone else has. There are fools born every minute in this business. Following your water example, set a glass of water on top of a subwoofer cabinet. Please share with all of us the results.
Floor composition and comb filtering are separate issues. It is that first bounce from speaker/floor/listening position.The speaker/floor and ceiling bounce, with their time delayed signatures are issues that contribute to degrade image definition and clarity. Time delayed bounces from these surface areas mix with the direct energy from our speakers. It is this direct/reflection paradigm that raising the speakers impacts.You can also lower cabinet vibrations and achieve sound absorption values if you use the correct material type in your speaker platform.
ok gotcha...Im a bass player and have seen many stages...But i will admit the tall hollow wood stages are the most fun..The bass is insanely strong and low in frequency..
J, Not true. Vibration transmission impacts all surfaces and yes, concrete floors have more density but the transmission of vibrations is still an issue, especially at lower frequencies.
@@AcousticFields About comb filtering...So there are 4 paths from sound source to listener bouncing in to floor, ceiling, L side & R side. Cause to the different lenght the traveling time are different causing phase distortion: it's correct?
Raise your speakers / listening position 3" and listen to your favorite and most played sources. Listen for one week. Raise them another 3" and spend another week. You will hear many changes. If you make the platforms you place them on vibration reducing, you will gain more detail and resolution.
Acoustic Fields If I raise my speakers 6”, one of the drivers will be halfway between floor and ceiling. Pretty sure that’ll be worse. Is driver-to-boundary ratio not more important than incremental floor distance?
Hi Martin, Speaker cabinets are small rooms, very small rooms, but nonetheless they must conform to the laws of physics. Though the goal of speaker cabinet designers is to reduce modal pressure and the resulting cabinet vibrations, most do not succeed. The sound you hear in your room is composed of three variables. First, you have the driver itself. The materials used in the cone and frame assembly contribute. Secondly, the cabinet the driver is installed in has modes and vibrations within in it. How the designer treats these issues influences sound. Even the cabinet material contributes. Finally, your room contributes its own "sonic stink" to the equation through reflections and modal issues. The sound you here in your room is part room, part driver, and part cabinet.
I've always wondered why monitor manufacturers don't bother to put acoustic foam on the inside walls of speaker cabinets... Any insight to this? I can't imagine it would add much to their assembly costs... O.o
Some manufacturers do but foam mostly absorbs higher frequencies which never make it out of the box in the first place. lower frequencies of about 500hz and below are what cause a box to "ring" and foam wouldnt do much of anything for that. bracing is what helps those frequencies so bracing is more of a sign of a well built box than foam.
M, Not true. The sound that comes out of your speakers is a part driver, part electronics, and part cabinet modal issues for the inside space of the cabinet and part cabinet resonances. The design goal of the speaker designer is to combine all of these colorations into the sound he is designing for.
M, Nothing could be further from the truth. Put an accelerometer on any speaker cabinet and measure. Speaker sound output is a combination of cabinet resonances, driver speed, cabinet design and a host of other variables.
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SIR, You are a Great Acoustician because You can Explain and Teach The Complex Subject of Acoustics In
A simple and understandable Language !
This is our goal. We try and take the complicated and make it simple for people to understand. Sometimes we succed and sometimes we do not. Thank you for letting us know your impressions.
Here’s one solution for speakers that are too big for stands. Put 3/4 inch thick industrial felt (F3 grade) under them to deaden the connection to the floor. My cabinets are made with 1.5 inch thick MDF, braced internally and filled with sound absorbing polyester fluff. They are 12x12x26 with 8 inch woofers and weigh 70 lbs each. Each cabinet sits on four round felt pads, each one 5.5 inches in diameter. The pads not only deaden any resonance, they protect the gloss finish. There is not a problem with noise transmission.
Speaker platforms can provide three functions. They can elevate which will improve room response. They can also be designed to absorb excess energy. Finally, as you have noted, a platform can isolate surface areas from noise transmission.
So why are Bosendorfer Imperial Grand Pianos designed with no hardware on the the legs? They are designed to transmit the lowest frequencies to the stage floor to turn the stage into part of the piano's sound board.
They are using the interaction of the piano / floor to create more energy which may or may not contribute to overall sound quality. It should never be the goal of any instrument to create quantity over quality. We see this all the time with live performances and subwoofers. Live performances are all about output or quantity. They must radiate energy across a large area to cover the audience. This is not the case with small room acoustics. Our goal with small room acoustics is definition, separation, and quality. It should never be about quantity since the container you are placing all of this energy within (room) can not support it below 100 Hz.
Interesting. My subwoofer is on the floor but doesn't sound impressive when I sit on my chair. When I stand up in the same spot, the sub sounds amazing! And that is the case throughout the room. At standing height it sounds much much better. If I elevate the subwoofer, will I elevate the "good sound" even further or could it also end up sounding better sitting? Cheers
A, Low frequency energy sources are location dependent based upon output and room size and volume. To test this place your sub woofer in room center. Move it back and forth towards the side walls. Move it back and forth towards the rear and front walls. Raise it up off the floor 12",18", and 24"
I use soft feets (Sonic Design) under all my speakers and those helps a lot.
B, Vibration transmission reduction is a good start. Now, raise your speakers to improve room response. After that is achieved, absorb excess energy at source.
Ive always been a big fan of using 4 thick rubber feet, and attaching that to the bottom of a tower speaker/subwoofer. Rather cheap, and elevating things just a few inches makes a world of difference. IE hearing the speaker, not the room.
Hi B, Yes, elevating the speaker minimizes the comb filter effect from the floor to listener. Finding the correct height to seated position ratio is the key. We elevate listening and speaker position.
It was a good video. I would mention one thing, a good well-designed speaker will not vibrate your hand when you place it on. A good well-designed speakers cabinet will be sonically dead. Or as close to eight as possible.
Thanks for giving me a new way to think about my speakers. Although I'm sure not all speakers are meant to be put on stands I can see how having energy absorbing material or energy neutral material below the speaker changes the dynamics.
G, Speakers are designed in a reflection free environment. The end user then takes those speakers designed in a reflection free environment and places them in a reflection full environment. Any adjustments you can make to improve that relationship are welcome and should be employed.
Many speaker cabs are designed to be on the floor, and the coupling is part of their tuning.
Would using spikes with something like damping rubber thingies underneath be good, or just take off the spikes entirely?
T, Spikes will provide isolation. Why not elevate and attenuate along with isolation.
@@AcousticFields Will do. Thanks.
2:00 I've always thought that frequencies below round about 100 Hz cannot be localized anyway as long as the wave length is more than any of the rooms dimensions. I'd say there is something going wrong if one can hear and localize the sound coming _from the subwoofer_.
E, Wavelength is a factor. However, remember that energy is oscillating throughout the room in cycles.
Understood. So as the low frequencies might not be localized in any case, the vibrations in the room caused by the speaker do color the sound and cause reverberation? Thank you for your reply.
What about floors that are concrete with a thin rug over it? My basement.
H, Stay with rugs and pads that are 1" in thickness.
I have my monitor on some isoacoustic stands sitting on my studio desk and I can feel the bass just vibrating thru my table down to the floor and vibrating my wall and so on.. so those stands don’t seem to work is there any way I can stop it vibrating my wall and floor? I have bass traps behind them already too
Your "bass traps" are not working effectively. Isolate the speakers with their own stands away from the desk.
I’m building a room within a room new studio space in a basement with ceramic tile floors over concrete with detra membrane in between... I’m wanting to build a DIY subwoofer for this much smaller space than my previous one. It’s will be 17 x 9 ft once done. The ceiling will be about 7foot 3 inches. I like to produce sub heavy music that goes down to 20 hz at times. The biggest question I have is sealed vs ported box ? I’m leaning towards sealed. I would appreciate your perspective on this. I’m interested in isolating my build once done and having it angled towards me and in phase with the other main monitors.
S, You will not be able to achieve those low-frequency goals with a 7' ceiling height regardless of source type.
@@AcousticFields Right .. SO sealed vs ported sub box in a small room ? What would you do ?
BTW it will be 7 ft 3 after 8 inches of absorption with rock wool safe n sound .
If the floor is a concrete slab is the diaphragmatic resonance negligible?
Concrete is an absorption technology that starts absorbing around 125 hz. Review this link:
file:///C:/Users/info/Downloads/applsci-11-04835.pdf
@@AcousticFields That link is inaccessible. Looks like somebody's local hard drive.
A few months back I bought a 2nd hand pair of Yamaha ns 1000m speakers . I got some stands with them. Not pretty but solid The treble was clear , bass good , but mid sounded a little peaky . Anyway just as an experiment, I put them on the floor. The peaky sound had gone and the depth and tone improved . Admittedly you cant turn it too loud ( but you couldn't anyway) but it sounds great . Not boomy but much better energy...like live music. At my age all I wish to do is enjoy myself 👍
Keep all speakers away from floors, walls, and ceilings. You bring in room gain (distortion) by locating an energy producing source next to a room boundary surface.
@@AcousticFields Maybe, but I don't care , it sounds great. I've been into this hobby 45 years and for this speaker in my room , it sounds better . I listened to Harry Belefonte , Prince, Velvet Underground , Elvis, The Stooges , The Zombies. It lived & breathed , The Yamaha is a sealed box .
@@nasdkhan254 A sealed box radiates low frequency energy in all directions.
I put my speakers on the floor close to the wall and I get good base and high since the focus of energy is all in the front, sounds more solid (or whole). In my observation unless it’s a big and high powered speakers the best spot is on the floor close to the wall.
You are confusing quantity with quality. Placing speakers closer to wall surfaces creates more distortion. The technical term is SBIE which stands for speaker boundary interference effect.
@@AcousticFields My speakers are in my great room and I adjust the sound according to my taste not by other bullshit.
@@jayemjayswatosville937 well, you never heard properly positioned speakers in a treated room
everybody but you knows that walls are natural enemies of speakers and good sound
measure it on the listening place and if it's not a flat curve it's bad - and yes it takes some time after proper room treatment to get used to a sound as it is meant
We have a hard floor and big box 3-way floor speakers with 15" bass drivers. I can put a rug down and it tones down the extra bass a bit, but I was considering building bases for them to bring them up about a foot. It would put the 1" dome tweeter right about ear level while sitting and put that bass driver about 20" up. That's why I'm watching, I got an idea, now I want to hear the pros opinion before I waist a bunch of time and money. If anyone has any thoughts. Thanks.
We have that product type with our carbon technology.
www.acousticfields.com/product/speaker-platform-csp/
Excellent pedagogics thank you!♡
J, We appreciate your support.
But my speakers are 155 lbs each and the height of the drivers is optimized for the speaker being on the floor. For improved sound, the speakers came with spiked feet and metal posts for connecting the back of each speaker to the wall, which I have never used. The spikes are for when being used on carpeted floors. I actually have had to elevate my speakers slightly to avoid blocking our double doors. I was worried about raising them but had no choice. Why would speaker makers produce a high end speaker and leave out the necessary internal insulation that prevents the problem described in this video?
Cost.
A bit of a story. I was given some Rank Arena floor standing speakers many years ago. I set them up on my pile carpet floor but found they lacked bass. I didn't know a lot at the time but knew audiophiles like to mount speakers on stands and or carpet spikes. So, I installed spikes and vola, I had bass. But what I had done was transmit the cabinet vibrations into the timber floor. In effect, turning my floor into a giant bass resonator. It stayed that way for quite a while. At some later date, I swapped these out for Polk 10Bs that I inherited. The cables these came with were old and dirty so I put them aside to re-terminate later. Meanwhile, I just used my existing cables. That sound was quite disappointing to what I had previously heard from the 10Bs. It wasn't until I cleaned up the original cables and swapped them in that the 10Bs came to life with clarity and a really nice full spectrum tonality. These are in fact the nicest sounding speakers I have ever owned. I had been really really skeptical about cables making much of a differences but here was the proof. So I put the Rank Arenas on thicker gauge cables and removes the spikes and they had bass now. Not only that but it was good and tight bass and better clarity overall. Even though they were sitting on the same carpet as before, I had never heard them sound so good. Tonality wise, they are of their time of course.
The point of this is that there is a lesson here. While you may think that something is an improvement, it isn't necessarily addressing the real problem and therefore, is not getting you closer to optimal performance. In fact it may be taking you in the wrong direction. It turns out that speakers should be mounted solidly so that the cabinet resists movement. However, this needs to be done in a way that also isolates cabinet vibrations form structures. Stands and spikes need to provide firm stability but their implementation needs to also provide isolation. There I've said it twice. An amazingly simple and most effective way to provide that isolation and hold the cabinet solidly in place on the stand or spikes is with nothing more than a thin amount of blu tack between cabinet and stand or each spike.
On the subject of speaker position. It is often suggested to not place speakers near a back wall. This is not correct. Corners should be avoided but surfaces are reflectors and if the reflected sound is out or phase by less than 50 ms, that will be perceived as lacking clarity. but greater than 50 ms is perceived as resonance (a positive), The cut off distance for this is about 8m from a wall. So, unless you are in a auditorium, your unlikely to achieve this minimum distance from a wall. In really, the ideal solution is to have the cabinets set into the wall so that the face plate is flush with the wall so the sound wave radiates along the surface rather than reflecting off it. Usually the practical solution is to keep them as close to the back wall as possible without crowding rear ports. This way, most of the back wall reflections strike the wall at a very shallow angle and are well dissipated by the time they reach you. Of course, you still have the other walls, floor and ceiling to contend with but it means you have effectively dealt with one of them and pile carpet is your floor bounce friend. Soft furnishing are helpful absorbers but it's nice to retain at least some room resonance. You really don't want to go padding out the whole room.
Ken, Elevating source and attenuating energy with the proper technology under source will improve room response. Every room's usage and size determines distances for set up. It is difficult to make generalizations about all set ups and rooms.
I’m assuming this is not referring to floorstanders?
You should always isolate any vibration producing device from the surface area it can transmit energy into.
@@AcousticFields my floorstanders are separated from the floor using Sorbothane discs. Any good?
Anti-gravity speakers. Once you try them, you'll never go back.
Or invisible acoustically neutral speaker stands
Is it better or worse to put them in the sidewall ceiling corners angled down with 8ft ceilings in a non critical listening enviroment?
Or what about front wall ceiling corners?
no corners for speakers
So what should I put under my speakers between the floor and the floor standing speakers what kind of material
A, Elevate, isolate, attenuate. Those are the three variables we can achieve. Here is a link to our speaker platform which does all three: www.acousticfields.com/product/speaker-platform-csp/
Most important video I have used to get a great sounding room.
We need to keep energy producing sources away from surface areas. We do not want them transferring energy into the structure and turning the structure into a speaker. Raising it off the floor will also improve response within the room.
If you can hear where your subwoofer is, then it is distorting. Mine is at the opposite end of the room to the main speakers yet it integrates perfectly. Nobody who listens to music here is aware that there is a subwoofer, and even when they know they say that all the music appears to be coming from the speaker. I've equalised things with Sonarworks, which reports flat response down to 20Hz. I have acoustic treatment on some of the walls - 4 inches of rockwool in front of a 4 inch air space. This effectively removes the room modes. A thick lambswool rug covering the space between speakers and listeners kills slap echo. And the floor is concrete, so no speaker energy gets transmitted into that.
D, Non localisation of source especially for low frequency sources is the goal. You can use positioning and signal processing to achieve that goal.
What about souncare superspikes?
I have dipole speakers with an open baffle. The subwoofers (Linkwitz LxMini) are opposite firing. I plan to install new flooring in the listening room which is 14 X 17 X 9. I am considering LVP (Luxury Vinyl Planks) which has a foam pad underlayment. It will be floating on top of a wood subfloor with an additional 1/2" particle board underlayment. There will also be an area rug (perhaps acoustically rated). My concern is the floating floor and whether it will vibrate when playing loud bass down to 35Hz. A glue down floor is an option, but then the choice of patterns and expense become factors. Will the dipole woofers mitigate my floor vibration concern? I appreciate your advice. Stan
S, A floating floor is a barrier technology. What are the frequency and amplitudes of your noise transmission issues?
@@AcousticFields The dipole subs can manage 35 Hz at 90 to 95dbs. The laminate floor is 10mm thick with a 2mm foam underlayment. There will be a 1" granite slab to isolate the subs from the floor. The subs are down firing. An area rug will encompass 30% of the floor area. My concern is whether vibration will occur with a floating floor. I am open to consider other options for the floor (though the laminate is my first choice) including glue down, if not overkill. I am not aware of any experiments to evaluate the acoustic issues with such floors. There is no need to isolate the sound below the floor, since the only residents below are termites. Thanks for your thoughts on this issue. Stan
What if I'm using a vintage floor firing sub on hardwood floor?
J, Raise it off the floor at least 18" . You must isolate and absorb energy at the same time. Here is out sub platform which does both. www.acousticfields.com/product/subwoofer-platform-absorber/
What about tile covered concrete floors ?
T, What is your room usage?
Acoustic Fields living room. 30 X 30 feet north east corner.
If you're dead set on setting your speakers on the floor, here's a quick way to make mass based isolation pads:
4 inch solid concrete construction blocks.
That's it you're done.
$3 each at the hardware store. If you want to protect your speakers from scuffs, add a piece of cloth or felt between the blocks and the speaker.
Or if you want them to look pretty:
Wearing safety glasses, hammer away any flashing or protrusions. Coat with plaster of paris. This will fill in all the voids, and sharpen the corners after sanding. Sand flat with 120 grit sandpaper. Spray paint whatever color, maybe add a clear coat. If you're using these on a desk, hot glue some felt feet to the bottom. Boom. Mass based isolation.
Concrete is a good isolating material but does very little absorption at lower frequencies. You can achieve both with our carbon technology. Here is the link: www.acousticfields.com/product/subwoofer-platform-absorber/
Are you referring to wooden floors only, or doe this apply to concrete floors?
It is a vibration transmission issue. Floor type and density not an issue.
Ideally, a speaker's cabinet energy should be able to escape and the floor should not receive any of it so neither resonates. With spikes and soft floor - energy escapes, and not much returns to cabinet, With spikes and high density concrete/tile floor most of the energy returns to cabinet. Rubber feet/pads are not much different than spikes, but slightly more energy can return to speaker cabinet, custom foam or spring dampers for specific weight is probably the best. If listening volume is medium, none of damping/isolating really matters
The speaker sound comes from the cabinet, driver, and the electronics. All must be designed to compliment each other for the desired output quality. There are two approaches to product design. You can design for a specific price point to try and capture additional market share or you can design for the ulimate sound quality that can be acheived based upon current technologies. Both have there strong and weaker points.
so high should a sub woofer be off the ground & how to mount it?
Sub woofer height is directly related to room size and volume. In our studio, we have three subs. One is 18" high, one 24", and one 36". With an 8' ceiling height, I would start at 18". Make sure the platform is low frequency absorbing and vibration reducing.
B, It depends on room size/volume/usage. Distances range from 12" - 48"
What does he mean u may or not need a back wall?
Leaving the rear wall or the wall behind you open reduces low-frequency pressure and minimizes reflections.
would a nice wood trunk make a good stands for a bookshelf speaker please? I also have a floor standing Focal on spikes. Does that need to be elevated or spikes are good already? any help is appreciated.
M, If the trunk is full of sound absorbing material. Trunks are resonating chambers based upon their size.
@@AcousticFields thanx
Sir, this test is about raising/isolating. Not sure if you saw this test previously, But I definitely confused on isolation after this. Is this a test that you were describing? According to this test nothing is changing in terms of freq. Sorry for my ignorance here, I,m a doctor of naturopathy not a doctor of acoustica. -))
ethanwiner.com/speaker_isolation.htm
@@melgibbson8955 Added January 6, 2018: "Speaker isolation came up in a Facebook audio group, and someone posted THIS video that further confirms competent speaker cabinets don't vibrate enough to transfer energy." Excellent article and I do tend to agree with him but how do we know he didn't pull a fast one on us just to try to get people to go to his website to purchase bass traps?
Is this why they say stand-mount speakers are easier to disappear? But I’ve actually heard floor-standing speakers that totally disappear.
H, All speakers can be made to disappear. It is a function of room size/volume and the proper treatment.
What about using an equalizer? I have a 8 octave one I use with microphone. Seems to help.
G, EQ's are fine for a dB polish here and there. They are no substitute for a properly treated room sound.
Is it okay to put spikes on my subwoofer or is that a bad idea
A, Yes. With low frequency sources, you want to isolate, attenuate, and elevate.Spikes isolate.
Theoretically I do agree. But in my (listening) situation, my very heavy and large speakers are on small undercarriages about 5 cm above the floor. This, in my personal opinion sounds best. They are simple too large to put them on high(-er) stands.
They sound better for many reasons. First, you have decoupled them from the floor. This reduces vibration transmission to the floor. Secondly, you have elevated them off the floor which will improve room response. Thirdly, if you decoupled and elevated, you now need to absorb excess low-frequency energy within the riser if possible. The best place to do that is as close to source as possible. You now need to increase the listening position height to match the speakers for more improvement. Getting quality sound within a room is all about doing a lot of little thangs correctly and in the proper order.
Very interesting....do i need a base? as the floorstanding speakers i have are already separated from direct contact with the laminate floor (on top of concrete) by a built in plinth on top of spikes ? Mission SX4s
C, You can elevate, isolate, and attenuate with a platform. Elevation improves room response, isolation reduces noise transmission, and attenuation absorbs cabinet vibrations and low frequency energy.
what with floor speakers that have their membranes at the top of the cabinet . as many 2.5 way has . I have ProAc 3.8 and they are quite high and membranes sits high up
Way to many assumptions here. Not everyone should be raising their 250lb heavily braced folded horn speakers off the floor.
Well, that's why your 10.000 speaker sounds worst that a 3000 one in a recording studio.
Buy a stand mounted speaker and then not worry about it....
"Coupling" the speakers to the floor will drain some excess energy from the cabinets while more importantly mass loading them, keeping them stationary in time, which increases Q and prevents smearing the high frequencies due to micro and macro movements. Now, unless it's a poorly built structure and a poorly built enclosure, the floor is sound (pun intended) and will be just fine as a means to improve sound quality. Pay attention to the floor joists so you can couple the speakers directly to them. The closer to the wall, the better (within reason obviously).
Decoupling the speaker or sub from its support surface would give the opposite effect, and wouldn't be my first choice in virtually any situation.
DJ, Why couple the speakers to the floor to drain energy from the cabinet. Why bring a larger surface area into the equation? Place it on a platform that does threes critical things; Elevate, attenuate, Isolate.
Scott, as you're a DJ I'm gonna assume you want that extra bass you would get from 'coupling'. Especially from a live sound perspective as you will get more bang for your buck.
But in the audiophile/studio world, we're trying to stay true to the source material, and dont want to invite distorted or coloured artifacts into the signal.
@@Big_Old_Bondy I can appreciate the assumption but no, that's not the case. Yes, I am a DJ by trade and have been around very high-end sound systems, both pro audio and home audiophile. Do what you wish. I speak from experience. Just like you, I am looking for the most accurate sound reproduction. Some people want to sell things. Try it both ways, using the criteria I summarized above, and sell your platform when done. Yes, elevating one sub to help even the response of room modes is good advice, but it doesn't require a specialized platform. Make sure it's mass loaded and coupled to the floor. Again, this assumes it's a solid floor and structure.
@@AcousticFields Coupling the system to the floor should not add more resonance if it is sound and done properly. It will drain excess energy from any cabinet, especially a lossy one, like an LS3/5A or similar. This is a good thing.
Most important, it will make things stationary, unlike the best isolation, which will prevent smearing the sound. If you are setting up in a very old home using a suspended floor that is poorly supported, then isolation might give better results. This is my anecdotal opinion and the physics is sound. Nevertheless, do what you wish.
@No Name With all do respect, when a band or orchestra sets up and plays live, do they decouple themselves from the floor and room? No. That being said, a reproduction should be accurate and isolation will prevent distortion. However, how good is the isolation? And no speaker cabinet is resonance free and dissipating that energy (distortion) into denser structures will reduce the fundamental and weaken its amplitude. This solid foundation will also minimize movement to prevent time and frequency distortion.
if you play the chello, the whole body resonates. properly designes acoustically active cabinet speaker designs are not always something to fear about. thats why real wood cabinets sound way better than mdf or plastic speakers. thats why tonewood exist on this planet. its a huge advantage to build around specific wood types.
We use plywood "skins" for the insides of our rooms. The multiple layered playwood reduces vibration transfer and provides the proper front wall densities for of CAW process.
www.acousticfields.com/carbon-absorber-wall/
Eventho this is old... i have this “Shelf” under my tv, u know were you usqually put your ps4, but I could fit my Sonos SUB in there... so there it is, i was wondering, does it take damage over time or is it a ok.. 😬
J, Never place an energy source where the energy is trapped between two small distances. Think of your shelf as a "sound prison" . Sound energy must be free and unrestricted.
Thank you for the beautifully straightforward explanation. I have very heavy speakers (Canton CT1000's) on a solid shelf but not sure of the best material to isolate them. Minimal contact with the shelf is the way to go?
S, Placing speakers on a shelf is not advisable. They will also be too close to a wall creating more distortion.
Well i was going to ask if i should be isolating or absorbing with my speakers.
That's told me
D, Elevate, isolate, attenuate. Elevation improves room response, isolation reduces floor to speaker interaction, and attenuation absorbs excess energy created inside cabinet.
I am glad to have found your video, thanks for sharing.
You may be the best to ask, do you know why the speaker manufacturers place the base driver at the bottom?
The LF waves do go about137 degrees in all directions and there by also down toward the floor, bouncing directly up again, with mudding as a result.
F, It is something I have wondered about for years. Some manufacturers place the low-frequency driver above the middle and high-frequency driver.
Thanks a lot for answering! Glad that I am not the only one wondering:-)
My idea is to place the base in a 45 deg towards the sealing, above the tweeter in a normal high speaker so that the tweeter still are in the height of the ears. In that way, I do think that you minimize the reflections most.
F, Positioning of low-frequency sources in small rooms has always been an issue. The issue with most suggestions is that they assume no low-frequency management within the room. If you treat your room with proper low- frequency absorption, positioning becomes much easier.
You are completely correct, most do just bye a speaker and let that be that.
But even if one are using your guaranteed great products, I think that the manufacturers should try to avoid most of the problem in the first place, then would your product have even better condition to make the sound pure perfection. :-)
F, One would think that but I know a lot of these designers and have asked them just that question. Most tell me it is about appearance and size. Go figure.
I was thinking of isolating with some form of stone. Some recommend granite, others slate. Is that the way to go? (spiked stands onto the stone). Thanks.
S, No, granite and stone have their own resonating frequencies that will not be compatible with spiked stands.
@@AcousticFields Thank you. My listening room is being built from scratch. Would supporting the speakers on iron bars set into the wall be a feasible way to go?
Mr Dennis, thank you for your great explanation, but I have a question about, what kind of floor material do you refer ?, that affect happens with a concrete floor?
G, Floor coverings vary with usage. Wood floors for control and mix rooms.
G, It depends on the usage of the room. Every usage is different.
Carpet Floor has the best bass why would anyone want to raise it ? it's less bass when raised up
What about a concrete floor with porcelan tiles?
Just had a question : If placing a diaphramatic absorber under your speakers is a good idea, how come manufacturers dont build it into the bottom of speakers??? Not criticizing your knowledge, just curious.
E, I do not know for certain but I am sure it has something to do with cost and not knowing the technology.
I'm going to guess this would apply to my bass guitar amp cabinet? 8 - 10 inch speakers in one cabinet.
K, Yes, any source that has vibration energy transmission.
Setting your speakers directly on the floor without spikes or isolation is very detrimental to sound quality but FYI according to the laws of physics, energy can not be created nor destroyed, only transformed. Therefore speakers are not energy producing devices!
J, Speakers are energy producing devices as far as the room is concerned. All the room sees is energy whether it's from a speaker or instrument or voice.
@@AcousticFields Speakers transform electrical energy into mechanical energy (in the form of coil movement, cone movement then pressure waves).
Energy is stored in Mass, and CAN be released from it and absorbed by it.
.
Use granite under speaker stands ... Much tighter bass
What about speakers that are di pole or have cardioid elements to lower the rear and side noise
A, The radiation patterns of speakers are part of the design parameters by the designer. A dipole radiates energy from both front and rear surfaces to create more energy which is a combination of reflected energy from the rear wall and the front of speaker. I do not subscribe to the philosophy that more is better.
@@AcousticFields Dipole speakers seem like an invitation to out of phase sound wave cancellation (dead spots in certain places in a room)
By doing things like putting speakers such as bookshelf speakers that lack low end response on floor shelves, you can emulate more proper frequency response that the speaker ought to have. The same for vise versa when putting speakers with weak high end higher in elevation. In the end though, this whole subject is a matter of subjective taste.
P, Not correct. You can do a before and after measurement to see the improvements.
I understand that you're basing this off of accuracy of studio sound intention. If you're horribly concerned with that, then there is some basis there. But if you're not an audiophile and you just want to shape the sound for yourself, there is nothing incorrect about this.
P, Our goal is to minimize distortion both room and equipment so that the sound quality can shine through. Quality sound in any room is a combination of doing many things correctly but more importantly in the correct order. Equipment set up is critical to this process.
Well sure. Though, I would argue that unless whatever distortion that is there is actively or overtly imbalancing the frequencies to the untrained ear, distortion may not necessarily be a bad thing. Distortion can often even be used to color the sound in a similar way as an eq can, according to taste.
P, Sorry, not in my world.
I put my speakers.. on my subwoofers. Maybe some feet would be a good choice for the subs.
Why not I like the house shaking bass
Excellent!
Like most audio "experts", he clearly knows what he's talking about.......................
Hey mate. You seem to know a lot about sound and hi-fi. Have you heard the phantom golds by devialet? The speaker cabinet is a sphere so vibration is practically non existent. To me they sounded much better than anything I've heard in a while. Any thoughts?
M, Internal cabinet resonances are always an issue with speakers. What are speakers? They are very small rooms and are plagued with the same resonances as larger rooms. Different cabinet designs are a direct response to those resonances. I have not heard that brand,
@@AcousticFields you should check them out. This design could be gamechanging.
It's not correct...the sphere shape only have a better resonance spectrum distribution vs others.
I’m not sure it’s really that huge of a deal because the speaker manufacturer usually has taken into account that the speaker is going to be, well, stood on the floor. I just finished making a tennis ball drum riser for my e-drum kit which was killing my neighbor downstairs. Not from the amplified sound, but from the actual beating of the pads. After making it I got an accelerometer app and tested things. As expected, the vibration from hitting the pads was reduced to almost zero on the floor. But I decided to see what my stereo speakers were doing while I was at it. There was surprising very little vibration in the floor right next to the speakers, while if the phone was placed on the speaker cabinet itself, the vibrations were off the chart. I think most of the vibrations a neighbor will experience from a stereo speaker is going to be when the sound hits drywall, which flexes and sends the vibration through the studs, which then travels to the neighbors wall and turns their drywall into a speaker. Anyway, the vibrations I measured on the floor next to the speakers was roughly that of tapping your fingers on the floor next to the phone with the app running. The speakers, at a moderately loud level.
the manufacturer don't care - especially because most customers have no clue and think louder and more bass is better
my speakers r way to heavy to lift off the floor. when i moved home the removal guys couldnt even lift them and took 2 of them just tilt it enough to get the sack truck under them to move them.
they pump out 2,000 watts and have them as my front speakers on my dolby atmos home cinema setup. Makes it feel a lot better as the floor shakes when earthquakes or explosions r going off in films. So not only do i get the surround sound i get the vibrations as well. So they r staying on the floor lol.
C, Wattage is a salesman game. It means nothing when it comes to energy management within a room. Secondly, quantity is not quality.
vibrations are shit for sound quality! if you want vibrations there are devices for your seat without shake the whole room and everything in it starting to make noise
*Can ANY professional or even knowledgeable person HELP me with how to set up my (maybe laughable) sub setup in my tiny room if I show you photos?*
Place the sub woofer in the center of the room and move backwards and forwards in 12" intervals. Use the same procedure from side to side. Stay with the same source material for this voicing procedure.
@@AcousticFields THANK YOU for the reply, You don't have to read this message as its a LOT longer than it was supposed to be so its fine if you dont read/reply! But if you could you PLEASE help me with a couple of other things?? I don't understand part of what you said & there is another issue I Pray you can help me with as I cant put my subs/speakers in the middle of my room & I'm also not sure if you meant literally in the "center" of my room or did you mean against the wall & in the middle of the wall as opposed to the left or right? I cant put them in the center of my room (if that's what you meant) because I use a VR (virtual reality) headset & need to be able to move around the room without running into anything. The other issue is I have quite a few subs/speakers & they take up a lot of room. It would probably help if I tell u what I have & most my subwoofers are "Car audio" subs & car audio amplifiers as I was only on a budget & I already owned a few subwoofers & amplifiers & the rest I bought because the "car audio" stuff was cheaper than the same thing in "home" stereo gear. So I run the car audio subs on power converters (converting 240V to 12V) & the car audio I have is: 5x 15" subs & 2x 12" subs, then the home stereo gear I have is: 2x 15" subs, 2x 10" subs & then 1x 12" speaker, 6x 7" Speakers & 4x 5.5" speakers. The boxes for the 15" subs are about the standard size for a 15" subwoofer, I built the boxes for the 5x 15" car subs & they are ported with an "shelf" style port as it made a HUGE improvement over sealed boxes, but I have noticed the sound (mainly the bass & mids) get a LOT louder or quieter depending on where I stand in my room & most the 15" subwoofers are on the floor, but I did put 4 screws underneath a couple of the boxes to raise them off the floor since I saw one of your videos about having speakers directly on the floor or having feet on them, Im not sure if it made any difference, I think they might be a bit louder. I really just need to know, is it maybe just best to have then all in one place in the room & would it be better to raise them up instead of basically having them on floor level, would eye/ear level be the best height? Because my best friend a few years ago was given a 15" pioneer car subwoofer (Pioneer 15inch 350W RMS subwoofer, I had the same model in my car) & he hooked it up to a Very cheap ($40!) & very small 2.1 channel home theater (u know those cheap, small units for TV's) it only came with a tiny, cheap 4" subwoofer & 2x 5" speakers & he wired the sub to the 4" subs wires & put the 15" sub on top of a very tall "corner" TV cabinet in the corner of the room & faced it backwards, (he knew I did that in my cars & it made the subs a lot louder, at least in cars) the cabinet was also so tall it nearly touched the ceiling & so that's where the subwoofer was, I barely expected it to work but instead it was amazing! It was almost as loud as the 15" subs I had in my cars (Which was extremely loud). But it was almost as loud as all the subwoofers I have combined & I'm 100% sure its ALL because of where I have them placed in my room. So do you know if putting the subwoofers up very high makes a big difference? Or should I have them on the floor, al eye/ear level, all in one corner or in the middle of a wall?
I been putting my speakers on milk crates my whole life, lol
lol damn talk about high tech!
Way more bass when on carpet floor
K, Carpet may provide some vibration transmission reduction but not much. You are still hearing floor and subwoofer.
There are a lot of people who don't hear that kind of differences.
Wil, With low frequency energy you do not hear anything. It a process of feeling through bone conductance. Raising a sub off the floor can have a 2-4 dB impact on room response which is very "audible" and felt. Remember that achieving sound quality is the direct result of doing a lot of little things in the correct order.
What it comes down to is buy better speakers. People that need to know this stuff about their cheap speakers, are not watching this in the first place.
B, It has nothing to do with speaker quality. Elevating the speaker will improve room response, attenuating low frequency energy from the low frequency driver which is close to the floor is always welcome and minimizing floor to speaker noise transmission is audible.
no speaker can trick physics
Speakers have more bass on floor
K, Quantity is not quality. You are hearing floor and subwoofer.
When it's up on air or on a stand bass gets reduced is it not better to stretch the bass by putting on something that will elevate the bass?
it doesn't damage the bass or speakers in any way
K, No.
K, What does "stretch the bass" mean ?
They become audible? By the speaker cabinet vibrations or? Haha... funny, because...
1: Speaker cabinets are built to NOT vibrate (oh my god.. this you don't get???)
2: At the volume you need to create the smallest cabinet vibrations you could not hear any sounds from speaker cabinet vibrations, and this is just pure logic that my 15 year old daughter understands. Drop a needle on the floor while playing loud music and see if you can hear it hit the floor... However, you might create audible vibrations in objects in the room that rattle because of the sound pressure level the woofer produce.
.
3: If you put a glass of water on top of your speaker cabinet you won't see any water vibrations, and if you do then consider returning the speakers to the dealer.
I have been an audio engineer for over 30 years and worked in many studios, with TV broadcasting and radio... so... Stop telling lies to people, and also get your audio basics right before doing a video about BS products. Other people should not learn from stupidity... my god...
You have bouight into the nonsense everyone else has. There are fools born every minute in this business. Following your water example, set a glass of water on top of a subwoofer cabinet. Please share with all of us the results.
@@AcousticFields Yes… ”everyone else” are using common sense and logic… so.. haha.. you said it yor self….
@@TheMikaeler As I have stated, there is a fool born every minute in this world.
Your video makes sense only if the floor is hollow..Like a wood floor thats raised...99% have concrete floors.......
Floor composition and comb filtering are separate issues. It is that first bounce from speaker/floor/listening position.The speaker/floor and ceiling bounce, with their time delayed signatures are issues that contribute to degrade image definition and clarity. Time delayed bounces from these surface areas mix with the direct energy from our speakers. It is this direct/reflection paradigm that raising the speakers impacts.You can also lower cabinet vibrations and achieve sound absorption values if you use the correct material type in your speaker platform.
ok gotcha...Im a bass player and have seen many stages...But i will admit the tall hollow wood stages are the most fun..The bass is insanely strong and low in frequency..
J, Not true. Vibration transmission impacts all surfaces and yes, concrete floors have more density but the transmission of vibrations is still an issue, especially at lower frequencies.
J, Your observations do not agree with our data. Most rooms we work in are a mixture of many different types and densities.
@@AcousticFields About comb filtering...So there are 4 paths from sound source to listener bouncing in to floor, ceiling, L side & R side. Cause to the different lenght the traveling time are different causing phase distortion: it's correct?
oh my God I just sit my speakers on the floor
Raise your speakers / listening position 3" and listen to your favorite and most played sources. Listen for one week. Raise them another 3" and spend another week. You will hear many changes. If you make the platforms you place them on vibration reducing, you will gain more detail and resolution.
Acoustic Fields If I raise my speakers 6”, one of the drivers will be halfway between floor and ceiling. Pretty sure that’ll be worse. Is driver-to-boundary ratio not more important than incremental floor distance?
Bass is better when speakers are on floor (carpet)
@@TheLetterK81 no
Floor standing speakers belong on the floor....hence floor standing.
All vibrating sources will show sonic improvement if you isolate, elevate, and attenuate.
I guess this is for individuals with discriminating taste.. and lots of money
Elevation source is not expensive. A simple brick will do. Start at 6" in height.
what a load of rubbish speaker cabs are made NOT to resonate as this would colour the sound
Hi Martin,
Speaker cabinets are small rooms, very small rooms, but nonetheless they must conform to the laws of physics. Though the goal of speaker cabinet designers is to reduce modal pressure and the resulting cabinet vibrations, most do not succeed. The sound you hear in your room is composed of three variables. First, you have the driver itself. The materials used in the cone and frame assembly contribute. Secondly, the cabinet the driver is installed in has modes and vibrations within in it. How the designer treats these issues influences sound. Even the cabinet material contributes. Finally, your room contributes its own "sonic stink" to the equation through reflections and modal issues. The sound you here in your room is part room, part driver, and part cabinet.
I've always wondered why monitor manufacturers don't bother to put acoustic foam on the inside walls of speaker cabinets... Any insight to this? I can't imagine it would add much to their assembly costs... O.o
Some manufacturers do but foam mostly absorbs higher frequencies which never make it out of the box in the first place. lower frequencies of about 500hz and below are what cause a box to "ring" and foam wouldnt do much of anything for that. bracing is what helps those frequencies so bracing is more of a sign of a well built box than foam.
M, Not true. The sound that comes out of your speakers is a part driver, part electronics, and part cabinet modal issues for the inside space of the cabinet and part cabinet resonances. The design goal of the speaker designer is to combine all of these colorations into the sound he is designing for.
M, Nothing could be further from the truth. Put an accelerometer on any speaker cabinet and measure. Speaker sound output is a combination of cabinet resonances, driver speed, cabinet design and a host of other variables.