Edit: hey all, a few things to note: I wanna apologize for the EXTREMELY annoying squeaking noise in the background, my chair was feeling nefarious and I didn't notice at the time. This took me like 2 and a half hours to record and I couldn't fix it in post, so just uh, I dunno, listen on bad speakers or lower the volume, I'll fix it by the next video (probably). I also wanna add that Corrupted Ancients are more noticeable than regular Healers, as ranged units stick near them, so they don't just wander out of the radius. Even so, its still like 2 enemies at any given time and they're still flawed. I also forgot to mention how Arbitration Drones nullify CC, and I think it would be totally fair to allow enemies under their effect to be CCable. Last thing is about Nullifiers, where a lot of people mentioned that their shield regenerating causes a lot of problems, so they could be changed to lose their bubble permanently when it breaks to avoid this. To keep the shield drone relevant, maybe it could do like a radial electric proc or somesuch when destroyed, but that's just an idea. A lot of people also disagree with my idea of changing defense, and while I still stand by it, I think that there could be a compromise: killing Eximus reducing the timer by 5 seconds. Considering that they have Overguard CC won't stop them from getting close enough to be killed, so I think that could be a solid way to strike a balance. Also, I want to note that Inaros is a very CC focused character even post rework. I didn't count him as a lot of those elements are carried over from his older kit, but in the name of fairness I think it is noteworthy that they did keep this part of Inaros' identity intact (which funnily enough makes the hesitancy to rework Loki even more confusing). Lastly, to all of the people who are simply saying I have a skill issue or somesuch, please actually listen to my argument on this. This game is easy as shit, I am well aware of that fact, I am not proposing changes with the goal of making the game easier. I find it sad that a once rich playstyle has been abandoned and the frames that use it consequently crippled, and I want to allow people to play the game in ways other than damage spam. If you like spamming damage, that's fine, but it doesn't mean the problem does not exist.
That's not Unique to Ancient Healers.... I've Seen Enemies glue to Nullifiers and Arbitration Drones too... The Latter will Intentionally Position itself Behind the Same Enemies it's Protecting because Apparently Full Invincibility wasn't Annoying Enough Already. 😐
Personally I _still_ don't think Loki needs a "rework." Simply making Decoy scale made it incredibly useful for a whole lot of content, as it is one of THE strongest threat generators in the entire game, and there is footage out there showing it'll literally prevent Defence targets from being attacked. In a similar vein, making Switch Teleport more usable in general is still appreciated. The only part of his kit that is outright lacking for me, currently, is Radial Disarm, which could REALLY use a damage vuln component to make it relevant outside of its CC functionality. From there, the only gripe is with Invisibility not being meaningfully distinct from Ash's invis, and his passive not really seeing a whole lot of usage since people have almost zero reason to wall latch all that much, but its usage isn't completely zero; if they made Switch Teleporting from a wall latch dangle the affected target from a choking wire for Loki's modded wall latch duration with threat generation and friendly fire, we could see some funny stuff going on with Damage Decoy.
I simply need to mention this lovely interaction. If you pop a nully bubble, and drag him into a vauban vortex, he'll be able to recast his bubble while actively being stuck in the vortex, thereby cancelling the ability and *freeing everyone affected, not just himself*
Same applies to limbo and his cata. You wanna bust most eximus and nulls down with cc and damage as limbo? Invest in rift torrent and subsume a wisp for breach and bust their heads closing to 5 mill with molt aug stacked and arcane energizer
Saw the thumbnail and thought it said “He Doesn’t Understand Overguard” and was offended that you thought the Ancient didn’t understand Overguard. I’m sure Mr Ancient would love this video as much as the rest of us do.
They should add some form of "brittle" enemy to the game. A tough motherfucker of a unit that "breaks" when CC'd to incentivize teams to have both CC and high damage.
@@jaketheman1577 DE could make it so overguarded enemies still don't get CC entirely. Like Rhino's Stomp prior to the recent consistency patch, having CC immune enemies still take a short slow instead of outright disabling them could be a way to have CC make an impact while not entirely effing up the Eximii mechanisms. For auras or lingering CC effect, make it a weak, lingering slow while in the AoE of the CC. Combined with making Overguard naturally resistant against AoE/Ability damage unless CC'd at least once would make it so you'd have a reason to take a CC frame in your team. RN, the only reason to use a Vauban in a team is to Flechette everything to death, and hopefully do so quickly by grouping with a Vortex. Bastille itself is of little use. And even that is only worth it in a static mission type. It's not like Eximii are currently that dangerous or hard to kill either. Blitz and Toxic Eximii are the only ones I would consider dangerous... If the toxic ones weren't so weak. The others are an annoyance at best. But an annoyance that is best dealt with with death, which is by far the best CC of all... even tho it could have been more diverse than that if it had been crafted thoughtfully.
DE relying on removing gameplay tools and options in the name of "difficulty" is getting more and more concerning. The game isn't hard when I can still just cheese everything. It's just more tedious and narrow in gameplay.
How is DE supposed to make challanges for people who have every weapon, frame, and mod? The only way to create meaningful conflict is by narrowing the range of what you have access to. A MR30 player has zero challenge with any content since they have EVERY answer.
@KokoMakesThings The problem with that is something that's just a byproduct of how DE has made this game though and how they've rewarded players for progressing. EVERY game has a contingency of players that will minmax the difficulty of even the most broken game modes into nonexistence. Scaling the difficulty to challenge the most busted players in the community, when they are in the minority, hurts the game's balance. I'm L3 and overguard is still ridiculous because it punishes players that aren't as far along to be busted so they can't compete with these numbers, while ALSO harming the players that are this far because it tales away all the stuff we have gotten by playing so much. You just kinda gotta let the OP players be OP, and if they complain, deal. It's harsh, but it's healthy for the game overall. Players like Brozime that have mapped out the math to the decimal points are always gonna shit on the game's challenges no matter what DE does.
@KokoMakesThings Warframe is not designed for traditional "challenge" as it is a power fantasy horde shooter. Taking away the gear that we work to earn is disrespectful to the time investment made in build crafting that the game greatly benefits from. It's also lazy to just remove options rather than making more engaging gameplay around what is already available. Creating interactive and engaging hoops for players to jump through is a great way to add depth to "endgame" content. An example is having completely invulnerable enemies that require a simple gimmick to remove their invulnerability (think similar to kuva guardians) such as being invulnerable until you slide into them to knock them on their backs. Another thing is having procedurally generated puzzles (simple ones of course) that players need to do while being bombarded by enemies (would also help to indirectly buff CC). Think similar to the sacrifice quest but better where you find codes on a walls of specific rooms and you have to input them into a machine to advance to the next room. Minor optional parkour challenges that can pop up in high-level content that give you a lot of resources or valuable items. These are just a few ideas off the top of my head that would add depth to the gameplay and could be combined with other mechanics to make for some entertaining and engaging endgame.
@KokoMakesThings that's bc every answer to every piece of content is literally just shoot at it. More complex answers don't exist, and neither does gameplay depth.
I remember seeing the Eximus rework and thinking, "huh, that looks interesting" And then getting curbstomped by overguarded blitz and toxic eximus that were immune to everything Love these video-essay form videos, keep up the great work man!
I liked the idea of Void damage (And operators) being a focus of taking down overguard It sorta felt like a design intention that Zenurik's Void Drag slowed eximus down, as well as operators doing bonus damage to overguard in the patch overguard was introduced
On the temporal drag no longer affecting them, I remember when they released overguard, they specifically said it's an immunity to "Warframe Crowd Control abilities" and temporal drag is not a warframe ability so it affected them (even though none of the other operator abilities like void levitation affected them), but obviously it doesn't anymore Even though they considered using your operator to be the counter play to over guard, which using temporal drag kinda did, and that's pretty dead It would be great if they brought forward the idea of using your operator to open them up, it is all about having to notice and act on an eximus and these proposed changes are a good stepping stone to that
I took a break from the game a while ago due to life and when I came back I didn't check much of the changes, so my first instinct was to assume that new enemy with a special coating on their health bar needed to be dealt with the operator, after a friend tipped my on overguard mechanics I realized it was just a dps check :/
Operator solution sounds bad cuz switching to operators works really bad on Consoles. You have tons off buggs stunlocking you in a permanent operator of warframe, while you cant do anything else. This solution requires and entire new look to operator playstyle and how it works/feels
I find the Demolisher idea good, but there is a tweak I'd argue is needed. And that's the Demolishers should have an automatic explosion when the timer ends with a set radius. If you kill the Demolisher, then it doesn't blow up, meanwhile if you control the target from getting close to the conduit so that the auto-detonation doesn't hit it. This creates 2 paths, either pour out damage to destroy them, or use CC to keep them away. Some CC would be far better then others, it would allow a more CC focused style, while not leaving a CC disabling enemy just running around. Had that happen once because of Pathfinding issues, just kinda found it running around.
Make eximus units consume 1/3 of their overguard to cast enhanced abilities (With a cool draining animation on the health bar during their cast windup). Once overguard has been expended, the time between casts is increased or their power/range is reduced to current levels or lower.
My only problem with this concept is that fires and blasts are still liable to make you regret picking Inaros or Nidus if they show up at the wrong time
Honestly, the biggest loser when Overguard first became a thing (aside from Limbo lol) was Grendel. His entire kit ceases to exist without dudes in his belly. The bolstered belligerents modifier literally turns off an entire warframe, and just not being able to vacuum up overguarded enemies felt really bad
Reduced CC effectiveness like what happened with Sentients in Scarlet Spear is what I would really prefer. It wasn't an all or nothing situation, it punished mindlessly CCing the entire map but was still effective for slowing down the elite enemies briefly making them easier to deal with. CC frames like Limbo weren't made useless, it just forced them to play smarter and it reduced how disruptive they were to the rest of the squad/mission flow.
The duviri defense with all the eximus units on the steel path portals really indeed can get kind of overwhelming to deal with, so we always have one friend on how we like to call it "Eximus Janitor" so we have more control over it and more breathing room they can really stack up in the portal SP defenses in duviri you are really going to enjoy your time
As someone who has also played this game for 10 years, I really want to thank you for being the voice of reason (as I see it) in the community. I wholeheartedly believe that this game is just this close to getting it right, but without proper communication with the community (and honestly who can blame DE for not wanting to touch the warframe subredit), changes are relatively slow. But they do happen, which is so much more than I can say about other games. And about the video, I hold the belief that Trib makes some of the greatest warframe content on the platform, and it's gonna be very hard to rise up to his level of quality, yet here you are. From the status tierlist to the "weird status effects" and all the other vids, you're really high up there. Thanks for dedicating yourself to this game, more than most of us have, and genuinely being entertaining while also keeping it coherent. Keep it up! You're gonna go far CoolKid! (get it? The Offspring reference?.... I'm old, I know.) Edit: Grammar
The funny thing about this is overgaurd didnt do its original job to the point DE now makes certain enemies invincible while they do their special move.
I think all your complaints are pretty fair, and you actually seen to understand why they added overguard unlike most conversations I see about the topic. I think the overguard granted by healers and the hands are not really a big deal, as I kinda just see that as a way to telegraph a damage resistance buff that you can take care of, even if the enemies it is applied to dont actually have any special attacks to warrant them having overguard. It is kind of like the corpus shield drones but if their sheild recharge made enemies CC immune. Though I could see a fair argument for enemies like the healer and hand enemy not applying the CC immunity and only damage resistance which would still incentivise you to deal with them first. And I agree that they are going a little to heavy with the overguard spam. I would prefer if they pivot to different types of modifiers for creating interesting scenarios. I also think they could look into CC still having some effect on Overguard, like a % overguard strip over time from CC abilities so that they still have some use while keeping the original intent of overguard intact. I like some of the possible fixes you presented as well
I wouldn't mind the wardens if it weren't for the fact that they can only be damaged on the arms, but can turn 180 degrees near instantly. It makes it extremely frustrating trying to deal with them.
To add to the EDA with the eximus fragmented tide, I too have completed that mission. It took a squad of 4 people about 15 minutes of continuous bullet jumping and reviving to take the dude down. There were probably upwards of 20 eximus units cramped into the tiny arena and the fact we even managed on itself is a miracle.
The operator solution is lowkey kind of genius. I would love a reason to make operators decent, even if it means making amps do a bit more damage cause i really hate operator as they are now.
They should’ve made operators just above or right under warframes in terms of power I’d love the ability to switch to operator during a mission because I want to Not because I have to, to get my buffs and whatever Let me use void infused guns and melee let me move with style and flow not exactly like warframes but give me a little bit more movement freedom. Give me void abilities based on the focus school that I choose That affect myself in operator mode and my warframe and my entire team. This addition would add so much more variety to builds and warframes combat in general. Also it’s just great to make players be more engaged with certain mechanics of the game that require a different method that isn’t warframe big dmg numbers. We need operator mode to be good and fun and solid not fast paced Just properly done And lore wise the Tenno and their void powers are supposed to be a force so strong no enemy can defeat them that easily make that possible in actual gameplay not just lore. I hope DE is considering this but they’re just waiting for the right update to implement this change Like us meeting void father or man in the wall Void devil Unlocks full control and power of the void Or a quest where after we defeat void devil we take full control of the void and it supercharges our health, shields, armor and gives us the freedom to choose abilities for our Tenno and the strength to wield weapons that are as good or better than wf warframes but imbued with void dmg Give us the ability to mod our weapons and our operators Put in mods in the game that are Tenno focused mods that provide support for the warframe when you switch to it and vice versa Like idk man just something Cuz right now operators are just a side upgrade tool for wf and they shouldn’t be.
My biggest gripe on operators is some of the minor things that really slow them down to me. No bullet jump or even double jump for example. They actually take fall damage. Sure they have their void dash but that is far harder to control than the Warframe’s movements. And it’s arguable that if you fix operators to have no difference in movement then why have them exist at all? I’ve never enjoyed operator gameplay as it feels like slamming on the brakes compared to how free your movement is in your Warframe.
As a Limbo Main I’m not too upset by these issues because I have ways of working around it (cold procs go brrrrr) but they seriously need to give some CC abilities the ability to bypass overguard again or have reduced effectiveness on CC over no effectiveness. Or just make it work like player Overguard giving status immunity.
@@lookalike4805 The purpose of Overguard for players is to serve as a free health pool, the purpose of Overguard for enemies is to stop them from being turned off by CC-there are many ways to implement either of this without straight CC immunity
This video was just so good, and so needed man. I truly hope that DE will do something to help and heal the damage they did. Okay so; 8:25 I know the Eximus update is a bit ago, but 2 prime examples of how DE nerfed Enemies to not do this in is significant. Lowering the enemy level in certain quests, Sayah´s vigil pretty much introducing the Nox just let´s you run past it with melee. Any Eximus is also just a Glowing variant from other enemies, you headshot it on earth and it´s dead. you melee it on earth it´s dead. Rolling is also never explored, many things. I actually just put up a forum post about Difficulty and New player experience, cuz i think this leads to damage being the only relevant way to play the game. A few Ideas Fighting the damage meta from me; Adaptation for eximus units with a quick fall-off. This affects CC AND DAMAGE, however CC degrades the Damage immunity, and Damage degrades theyr CC immunity. The same mechanic could work on Sentients, making them actually challanging and less of a Damage bar again. Honestly the same mechanic should be used for Bosses aswell, imagine a 10% Cap per strike 4x for headshots cuz they hard to hit, that cap stays the same, and perhaps that triggers the actual Adaptation. A knockback from blast and impact could be always the same duration, making it a little more relevant, while scaling duration suffers with each cast. Another new Enemy type to deal with this issue would be a debuff Eximus, an Aura that nerfs the damage output of the player, with the aura growing like Nullifier bubbles, but can be reduced by cc again, and propperly damaged from far away, perhaps making Snipers a bit more convinient too. The operator idea actually also is good, but i gotta disagree; Amps CAN DO MASSIVE DAMAGE. With arcanes and all, i can oneshot SP Heavys with Armor strip. That is convinient for a skilltree that offers instant armor strip. Most other options, besides crit are weak though, because damage always overrules everything. Which is why Status still needs some buffs. Especially with weird Status caps that just deny playstyles. For gameplay and mission types, yeah Defense need something. Atleast the first 5 waves should go by with time, and be a total extermination on the FINAL stage. The worst part is to look for that last enemy each wave, that feeling is something we all hate. Otherwise it would be pretty funny to have enemies spawn infinetly, and always stay there. With certain AOE nukes, it would possibly make it more efficient to bundle all waves enemies and delete them with the bramma or something, making saving ammo and run arounds. The capture one, i also just Feel so hard. There is no reason for it to work like that. Especially since the game was supposed to be stealth, yet that enemy just knows all, and status immunity is so boooring. I think any enemy that is "immune" to anything, we have clear mechanics like Acholytes going invincible, and getting cleared of status which i respect, but then we have that limit of 4 Heat and viral procs, which makes certain builds super weak and condition overloads nerfed as hell. Abilities like Mesa´s 4 should also work, just with that damage reduction to force some rethinking, and CC to deny some Telegraphed attacks is also totally valid, of course no 10 second Root but let me use my stuff damn! Or a slow is cool. For ESO; You know that bounty mission where you need to keep the area clear of enemies? If Sanctuary worked a little more like that, and CC´d enemie would ignore the Domination-percentage, that would be very nice. Actually making defense work like that is also a good idea no?
40:32 for the timer. i think its less clear now than it was at launch that the timer is a built in safety net for when the demolisher bugs out, fails to path or fails to spawn. I remember it being fairly common when the gamemode first rolled out to pass the timer without seeing or finding the demo because it got lost or spawned out of bounds.
On the note of gamemodes, one thing I always think can be addressed is the reward quality & pace in missions. As it stands, Void Capture is the best for farming (most) relics and exterminate/rescue fissures are usually the most ran mission types for its speed as well as allowing damage to flourish there. (There is also some T6 fissure nodes that are quite good too) Back in the day Xini Eris and Heirachon Pluto were go to farms for all kinds of stuff but because these nodes were Interception & Excavation, it organically allowed the use of CC without feeling forced or arbitrary. By design these nodes worked well with CC, but because there isn't a huge reason to run these missions anymore, CC doesn't get to see much organic use, a great example as you've mentioned is Mirror Defense but I think doing a reward rebalance/overview of many older nodes could do justice. Even as simple as adding 2 items per rotation in interception can go a long way. Enough to compete with Void Capture? Not a chance, but enough to make the modes feel genuinely decent in today's era of Warframe. Though this example is a specific one I like to bring up.
Its the weird dichotomy, where Overguard provides a Resistance to Damage (by adding eHP), a Resistance to Status (capped procs), but then just flat out negates CC. Your Fair/Unfair difficulty is somethng I've written myself. Though I used the term reductive/subtractive difficulty. Where the game removes its mechanics (randomly or otherwise) rather then promoting scenarios that require creative and complete use of the games entire toolkit. A hyperbolic example would be if a shooter simply decided you could only reload twice per level, or randomly jammed your gun to prevent you from shooting. For Helldivers I'd cite the difference between fire tornados that force you to reposition and move, cold conditions that influence your weapon choicses, vs Ion Storms disabling your strategems or the (only on high difficulties) planet modifier that cuts your 4 tools to 3. Rather then halfing soft effects, or softening hard effects (Paralyze become slow, Disarm/jam become damage debuff, Blind becomes accuracy debuff) etc. (With the weird exception of Vauban, who's 4 does transform into a slow effect, which was added but undocumented) Hard to tell much from Deep Archimedia. They got pressured for the Netracell loot tables being kind of derpy but evidently didn't want it to be overewarding (which is somewhat fair, its largely unfailable and simply a time sync for rewards and if it dropped guaranteed high end stuff arguably trivializing other things like Archon Hunts) So it seems like DA just got rushed out with half upcycled ideas (like the RNG and various existing sortie/netracell/disruption mutators), and half random "throw it at the wall" brainstorming ideas without any significant evaluation (particularly when they double up randomly) DE not understanding or having a vision for CC kind of comes from Pablo (who is now the chief gameplay guy) unfortunately having made tweets regarding Limbo, Loki, and CC in general that were very critical of it as a "turn the gameplay off" button, expressed inability to design around it. (Also the Hydroid rework, which took away huge chunks of CC utility from his kit in favor of making Saryn-lite)
CoolKid369 giving their non-meta-enslaved opinion on WF? You're about to sadly get jumped, kidnapped and tortured by being forced to watch KnightmareFrame putting PSF on every single frame in existence that doesn't even need it. I agree with a lot, I don't think CC is dead as well but DE sometimes really discourages it with their choices for the game, but can only hope they can learn, take notes and tweak things to not feel like a chore to deal with.. Sometimes I ask if most of them even play their game at all, I know Pablo does, but the rest?.. I don't think they do very much, Anyways, Stockholm Syndrome is back to 100%, We lose these. Also I am still mad Mirror Defense was brought back, I wanted another Void Armaggedon in the labs man, mode is a much more fun defense
Also about defence being time based - DA Mirror Defence (and Survival) have a neat semi-hidden function we could add so players won't feel they sit ducks until timer is over. Going near Mech dispenser you can forcibly spawn Eximus one, killing it reduces timer by 45s.
i had an idea as i was watching this: a possible way to make overguard work with CC could be to let overguarded eximus take the full CC, but when you break through overguard, they "break out" and preform their special attack before going back to being CC'd. my reasoning is that this allows you to CC eximus, but you need to be ready for their attack once overguard breaks. some issues with this would be the possibility of CCing them again before they get an attack out, but that can be fixed with a simple timer or check. another issue would be implementing it into abilities that knockdown or ragdoll enemies, like Nezha's 4.
Just to quickly mention this, at 6:28 when you mention Nova's Molecular Prime; the reason it doesn't work on Overguard is because Molecular Prime *only* boosts damage dealt to enemy health, not to Shields or, as you showed, Overguard. Just less of an inconsistency thing and more of a weird ability quirk.
This discussion needed to happen. I have 5.5k hours in Warframe since late 2015. Everything this man said was a fact and I couldn't agree more with each detail. DE will either listen to these great ideas, or offer you a job. Great video.
You mentioning wanting defense to have a timer instead of waves is interesting because i've been wanting a survival mode that's basically just defense without the defense target (and without air support) so i wanna propose splitting the game modes. Wave Defense - Defense game mode unchanged but renamed Timer Defense - Defense game mode with a timer instead of waves (What was suggested in the video) Wave Survival - Defense game mode without a defense target, for a classic wave survival experience like found in other games Timer Survival - Survival game mode unchanged but renamed
I feel like giving demolishers status reduction instead of immunity is an extremely obvious way to balance cc around them. They are, after all, enemies that are trying to get close to an objective, so it's weird how the only way to stop them is not to impair them in any way but to kill them within the time it takes them to reach it.
I'm honestly glad about the approach to Overguard being from the thesis of 'this was put in place because CC prevented enemies with unique mechanics from mattering'. I left a comment on the Trib video you mentioned in the intro to that effect, and a lot of people misinterpreted me as saying 'Overguard was implemented because CC was generally too powerful', and that I was Stupid for saying anything, but... No, the problem was actually that DE can't make a cool new enemy type that matters if you can just mass stun everything guaranteed, you're never gonna see a Blitz Eximus do the cool dangerous new shockwave blast move they programmed and animated if it's already asleep. The game design theory is sound on paper when you think about it from that angle; in a world where every warframe was usually coming with some 3 or 4 that was just 'massive radial AoE lockdown effect that tells everyone to fuck off', making priority threats was difficult and this was their solution. The problem that has arisen is that the response provided by the players, which the devs leaned into, was 'what if we just dealt enough damage to an AoE of approximately the same effective size that we could just kill everything'. We got the one-two punch of Kullervo and Dagath one after another who basically kill at the same rate older frames could CC, and now we're at a point where we have frames like Dante and Jade doing some truly heinous shit to this poor video game where you can just kill enemies you don't even know exist yet. Of course CC is going to feel lower value when you can measure performance in KPM at Steel Path Level Cap, ESPECIALLY when they keep using Overguard as just something to add to make gameplay more difficult just for the way it inflates enemy HP and technically 'fights back against the player', ignoring how many frames this completely invalidates, because god forbid a Nidus player get to generate mutation stacks in a Circuit run, you'd really be breaking the meta with that Warframe from 2016. Basically I'm glad this video is verbalizing the exact feelings I've had for a long time, good stuff
I know basically just reiterating it, but, yeah, this has kinda become a cat and mouse type game, where they try to make the players deal with unique abilities by preventing just soft neutralizing them, but since then the easiest solution then becomes just nuking them just like all the fodder enemies, players stop experiencing those abilities by annihilating them, so they feel need to force higher numbers of them so players have no choice, which just leaves CC lagging even further behind when they cant touch more and more of the percentage of enemies spawning with their abilities, when they function best against those types of special stronger foes, since damage can just wipe out all basic enemies quickly enough
Love the vid furry man, keep it up. I love this new wave of WF creators (not really new but starting to be seen) that aren't toxic and overly detrimental to the community that are supposed to be creating a healthy space of discourse rather than shutting down opinions and preferences.
I see your longform video, and respond in kind. I apologize in advance, but at the same time, your critique of the situation and offer of ideas got me thinking, and I enjoyed the video a ton. So, here we go. I wholeheartedly agree that there needs to be more interaction with overguard besides "Haha mesa 4 go brr" or "Incarnon [Name your crit weapon of choice here] brr" because if you can resolve overguard the same way you resolve big amounts of health in the "Numbers go up" style, then it's just DPS over actually doing your work of trying to resolve the problem intelligently or put any use to what you have. I think CC abilities should definitely have some kind of effect. Vortex, Tornado, and other pulling effects should still work, but not ragdoll the target (Nautilus' cordon and Tether Grenades on the Penta launcher is a great example of this). This allows you to keep them in certain areas a bit more yes, but they can eventually break out (much like Sentients can adapt to damage types) while having overguard if allowed stay there too long. This lets you control the tide of battle for a time and single out or pull away dangerous enemies out of large groups to focus on them. Abilities that slow might instead weaken the effects of the overguard ability user, as if it slows the flow of their power and affects the potency making reduced output, to a cap of course. This means any slowing effect, even cold procs, provides a means of granting breathing room and giving a better fighting chance. Abilities that lift or hold enemies (Bastile, aegis storm, stomp, and so on.) would actively provide an effect that enhances that on enemies they support. This makes not only the enemies they support more visible (perhaps energy glow) but highlights the target that's causing trouble even more than before. While yes, they are already visible, if you have a horde of enemies blocking your sight, seeing some small group oddly glow tells you "hey there's an eximus over there" better when you're in the thick of it and don't always have the time to pick out that one eximus. Abilities that blind might be able to for a very fixed duration disrupt an active in use ability. Arctic Eximus bubbles, toxic eximus fields, arson eximus shockwaves, and so on. Give it a bit of counterplay where you're not stopping the eximus themselves, but battling the eximus ability against ability to give, again, a moment of breathing room. You still have to fight them, but you can at least stop a group of eximus from filling up the field with all their abilities at once and end up getting piled on. Perhaps about 1-2 seconds since you are speedy movement ninja. Banshee specifically using Silence is an enhanced version of this, up to 4 seconds. Look at each ability, and discover how you could change it's effects on overguard. Make it a fight where you get advantage with SOMETHING, rather than trying to just say "No CC, only damage. Go Brr or go home." As for Operator interaction, Eximus units should deal significantly less damage to the operator, and the operator does increased damage to the eximus' overguard specifically. Outright nuking the shield shouldn't be possible, but make it a reason why someone else has to keep the eximus pinned with different cc and provide cover fire against normal units who can do more damage to the operator. Make it feel like it takes at least some form of intelligence and team effort, while someone else helps crack the shield. IF all it takes is one operator ability or trick to shatter it, then the ideal of defeating overguard is push operator button, smack once, go back, return to norm. There's no need to think about their abilities, just know they exist. In my opinion, challenge exists best when you need tactics and strategy to at least some degree, not when the only solution is to min max your damage output so everything dies and then realize how shallow the meaning of overguard really becomes at that point. Again, If all you need is number go up, and a single gimmick invalidates the entirety of several warframes, you're just making people choose the Most Effective Tactic Available. Damage. Oh, and also: Ancient healers (and corrupted healers) need to function closer to what the warden does. Let tendrils of glowing mass in the style of infested latch onto a limited number of other non eximus enemies, and then make it so they are more visible. Also, limit active numbers of them as they should be treated similarly to the warden or maybe a little more by just a little bit. Wardens are a good idea executed well. Ancient healers feel like the prototype effort of wardens that need a proper rework.
I liked your 2nd idea about damage reduction on OG. I feel like you could go even further though. Why stop at damage reduction which many players won't even notice. Instead use damage attenuation, archon style. Then, when the enemy is affected by a CC effect, you could make the attenation more lenient for a few seconds. I think that would have the desired effect of making players slow down and interact with overguarded enemies. I would also like to say that CC is still quite effective in places like the Circuit. My friends and I did multiple level cap circuit runs, week after week. The thing that was most helpful in getting us to level cap was a strong CC frame. I found that Nyx was one of the best. I would subsume Silence and then all the eximus units would spend their time fighting the other enemies that were aggrod on them.
I thought I was gonna spend like 5 mins listening to this video and then I stayed all the way to the end. Good content, just commenting to say thank you🤙
My idea to change overguard is to make enemy partially immune to CC. Abilities that pull them enemies together would pull them slowly, and they can break free depending on their weight class. Sleep, blind, mind control would have a chance to not take effect.
That Pablo answer to the Loki rework felt so out of touch, I hope that he just misunderstood the question and DE is aware of the CC and Overguard situation
Either you die a hero a hero, or live long enough to become a villain. Will Pablo be the fallen lord? His lack of understanding started with Yareli after all. (She is Pablo's creation, atleast the original release Yareli.)
@@ChangedCauseYT-HateFoxNames fire pablo Waveridder took all the fun i was having with K-Drives and smashed it to atoms with its cancerous requirements the jam myself in a corner on a perpetual rail grind was my only option
Simply put, fantastic video. I wish takes in this format and care were more the norm. You did incredible work on this and presented it all beautifully. I really hope this gets seen in full by DE. P.S. funny thing, this is my first video of yours, what a way to discover you! :)
Fantastic video! In parts, this is another example of how DE seems unwilling or incapable of trying balancing that does not rely on taking away from the players. The 50% overguard modifier actually made me laugh out loud when I first read it. It's by no means easy to balance this game and I agree with you on the point that many people think they can do it for the developers. What you can and should criticize is the fact that they have basically stopped trying other routes. Essentially every recent change for "difficulty" and "balance" has been following this philosophy of inhibiting the players gameplay/choice. Same for the latest example, I do not like EDA as a concept, good or bad gear aside. I never want to have my gear choices limited personally. There needs to be some attempts that focus on demanding more from the player (as an example; mechanics that either make you use your brain or demand more precise inputs). And if they flop that's fine. I'm pretty sure the community will help DE out until it works.
A friend still plays or at least pays more attention to warframe than I do and described the new endgame boss. "It turns off all your abilities and strips you of your buffs" and I had to raise my hand and stop him because I could not understand the fun in that. Apparently some hardcore players liked that idea?! In a game about being a ninja and using cool abilities to interrupt your enemies... "Yeah because it's about how good you are mechanically." Riiight.
Here's another idea for changing how Overguard interacts with CC (which other people have probably also come up with but fuck it), which is essentially the opposite of status reduction: Make it so crowd control effects slowly drain overguard. This way, instead of enemies becoming slowly attuned to CC making them more dangerous over time, their OG acts as a resource granting limited protection from CC. This would accomplish a few things I think: -Crowd control helps softening up overguarded enemies before engagement, because their OG is already lowered -Situations like you being crowded by 500 eximus in a bossfight are avoided, because they all become susceptible to CC after some time so you only have to hold out for a while -Straight damage to Overguarded enemies is still a very viable option to deal with them quickly. CC effects help with this, because they also add damage to the OG, so they can actually compete with damage buffing effects -Different enemies can have differing resistances to CC, so enemies protected by ancients or Archimedea effects have lower OG pools so they become susceptible to CC quickly, while bulkier Eximus enemies can withstand for longer I also think the idea with the operator is really good. I think ideally this would be an addition to other changes rather than the only one
Making defence time based reminded me of when i once solod a defence archon hunt and the enemies were too tough for me but i had khora, so while i or the defence target didnt die, the whole 10 waves took about 30 minutes to do since i didn't have the damage at the time
Here's an idea for Disruption: Maybe those saboteur units have way less health and when reduced to 0 go into a knock down state. A player then has to stand close to it and wait a second or a tiny target to appear for a single second, which must be shot directly. (No cheesing with AOE.) It has minimal health so any gun can crack it with a single shot, but you have to be fully aware of the target and be ready to shoot it. If you fail to shoot the target before it blinks away, the unit gets back up with half the health and movement speed. Repeat until you shoot the target. CC would allow you to quickly create a moment of calm in a storm, so you can line up your shot perfectly while the trash mobs around you are snoozing. Perhaps to reward setting this up, shooting the target makes the saboteur detonate and send all CCed units in a generous radius ragdolling to the moon. The reason for this is A: Ragdoll physics are funny, and B: it rewards players for engaging with the unit's unique mechanics and using CC in a facilitative way.
Reminds me of when DE first introduced a really dumb band aid solution years ago when they tried to put difficulty in the game. It was called the Nullifier.
Funnily, I made my own video covering how Disruption is effectively just endless capture. And how the timer exists but seemed to just be a leftover of the earlier concept they originally showed on dev stream. And the modifiers (other then increased enemy speed) effectively don’t matter until level cap runs and only for a tiny window before it’s just another grain if sand in the instakill pile. Also yeah, capture targets are wackily inconsistent. Some can’t be hit by powers at all, some are CC immune, some proc status some don’t. Demolysts aren’t totally absent from the inconsistencies either (often retaining weird quirks of their base unit) Going back to that first point about Disruption changing from announcement to live. Overguard kind of suffers from the same general DE pattern. A concept is presented on the dev stream, seems fine. But the version we finally get has been altered without any further embellishment on why (ie Ancient Healers doing Overguard instead of uh, healing. And also as a result weirdly doubling on the Disruptors aura and purpose). Then down the line we get stuff being recycled and reused out of its mechanical context. Suddenly Overguard becomes more common and a difficulty pad instead of a unique mechanic. DuViri random loadouts get pulled out of their supporting architecture also as alleged difficulty (they aren’t because you can as easily roll Revenant and a Torid as Limbo and a Stug, there is no intent there). Some of that is budget and so on, but it’s seeming like stuff is thrown at a wall hoping it’ll stick then by deliberate intent. I would give some special mention. That new Zariman enemies Murmur, and even the Amalgams and more recent Sentients also don’t pair well with the eximus treatment to begin with. Most already had their unique gimmicks and the doubly up just creates a lot of noise.
Steel Path (and the various modes using derivations of it) was in itself part of this conceptual drift. A niche set of players wanted a level selection toggle so they could do their endurance stuff without sitting through hours of nothing. Fair enough, but the game structure didn’t support it so Steel path was born. With some token cosmetic bragging pieces and boosted, but no exclusive rewards. And DE said that was it and the game would never balance around it. That lasted roughly a year. Then we started getting a lot of stuff like weapon arcanes, galvanized mods, archon shards, Incarnons, exclusive arcanes. Steel Path suddenly became mandatory to engage with if you wanted to experience the full breadth of the game’s systems. Some of these were placed in Steel Path, some were added to smooth the difficulty off of steel path. Nonetheless it escaped from this concession to a niche challenge to having tendrils sink all throughout the game. And consequently that generated even more power creep (like the 8 billion available armour strips, which was helpful, but not necessary until dealing with SP armour) and other such things. Then DE cranked the enemies higher to compensate to that. Except CC exists outside of that equation and also (mostly) scaled to increased numbers as well, so they had to cut CC to further this new difficulty niche they escalated themselves into by putting effort into what was meant to be a throwaway novelty mode.
On the topic of CC and Survival Life Support drops - I think in some cases, some CC effects actually break enemies being able to drop life support - Zephyr's Tornadoes seem to struggle in particular, in my experience, and I consistently end up running out of life support even on steel path even with killing enemies quickly. Either I'm exceedingly unlucky, *only* when running her, or there's some kind of weird interaction.
I agree that 'CC is dead' is an overly reductive point and I broadly agree with basically all the points you've made in this video. Good stuff at that, this is the kind of content I like the most on this platform. That said, I will say that it does kind of /feel/ like 'CC is dead' when it comes to playing some frames. An example is Rhino where I had a had a pretty decent time playing with basically just tanking with Iron Skin and using Stomp just to sort out when stuff got hairy on a Defense/similar. This worked great as the high strength slow gave you time to sort things out and justified the high cost. After the normalization of Stomp's CC against Eximus it feels very unimpactful since they were almost the only enemies that I actually cared about in those kind of situations. There are exceptions to this (I really quite like Inaros' new kit and Sandstorm in particular as it's just a great team safety, grouping and status tool IMO) but too many abilities feel like they barely earn their keep even against an arguably 'fair' grouping of Eximus/NonEximus. I know this is a point you expounded on at length but I feel like most abilities are even worse off at the value proposition than the ratio suggests and that really drives the frustration and feeling of 'CC is dead.' But I'm really just venting in circles to myself at this point, lol.
you have an extremely well written breakdown but seeing the fucking cuddle party of hollow vein eximus shitting out magnetic waves at 19:44 made me laugh for almost five minutes straight EDA is pants on head stupid sometimes and that's amazing
Honestly i love the laat part of the video discussing the community. Because I feel like I have contributed to the emotionally fueled rants that cause such strifes in the here. Granted im like a nobody so maybe its not that much at all, but I agree that we need to take a more level headed approach and understand that DE is so insanely forgiving and interactive with the community and we may always take that for granted. There will still be thibgds de may do in the future thatll piss us off but I never want to go as far as insulting or belittling them again.
It still blows my mind everytime I personally realize game mechanics like Overguard being in place to make you actually interact and fight against enemies with unique mechanics (which I always equated to things like a mini boss from other games) and then come onto social media and realize just how uncommon a realization that was. XD
I’d always had the idea of a Loki Rework not even being a full rework anyway. Moreso a change to his passive. My idea for Loki specifically was more so the status reduction thing in a similar vein to Hydroid’s new passive. Any CC ability cast by Loki affects enemies at full potency even through Overguard. This also tags an enemy with a mark that allows other frames to affect overguarded enemies with CC abilities at a diminished potency, maybe 1/4-1/2 the power/duration. More so leaning into his role as the trickster. This would also apply to any ability subsumed onto him which may be quite powerful, but Loki needs something. Edit: one enemy everyone always seems to forget is the nullifier bubble thing that gives an enemy a nullifier bubble in the Orb Valis. Ever have one of them put one onto the mobs that lunge at you at Mach 3 on the Orb Valis? Yea, basically an immediate ‘F your abilities’.
I totally forgot about Terra Shield Drones! Yeah, those things are dumb lol I also think Loki needing a full on rework is definitely not urgently needed, mostly his passive and 4 deserve help, though I still think it would be good for him overall.
Along with the Healers, the Arbitration Drones could be included there - they give full ability immunity and invulnerability - would be nice if they let enemies be affected by CC while still rendering enemies immune to damage - just like the Liminus things in (E)DA
I've never played this game before and didn't even know what is was when I clicked on this video out of curiosity. But I've got to hand it to you. It was a good video. You had me invested in a game I don't know anything about for almost a full hour, and managed to explain everything in a way that I actually understood what you were talking about. Well done sir. Well done. I wish you and the rest of the community luck in getting the CC and OG changes you want
nah I'm with you. I remember having to actually aim for headshot when I started off because your damage on a fresh account is so low that headshotting enemies was useful to conserve ammo and energy for moments where you were being overwhelmed or needed to clear some enemies ASAP on some mission modes. Enemies were also around the same power level as you so it felt great being able to out maneuver them and take them down with accurate shots and powers. I really miss those days.
They used to just provide damage reduction, status redirection, and still made enemies immune to lots of CC effects. If memory serves, they didn't even actually heal enemies. I can see where you're coming from, and my solution may still not be the best one, but Healers have always been a weird enemy that aren't intuitive at a glance.
@@CoolKid369 if memory seves, it was something along the lines of damaging the ancient would heal nearby enemies for a portion, and damaging the enemies would heal the ancient. I don't remember the old ancients giving cc immunity, but then, like you said, there is a lot of stuff ancients do that they just don't tell you. Like, how many people do you think know that ancient disruptors give all nearby enemies the capacity to sap energy
Small note about arbi/defense: While most players wont notice a big difference between 5 waves or 5 min, arbi players most certainly will. Defense is (next to interception) THE META game mode in arbis atm, bc you can finish a wave in 20-30s with a coordinated group. Your proposed change would change it up quite a bit but tbh, it would be quite a buff. Constant spawning and way less downtime is ideal for an arbi mission and would increase vitus/minute by a significant amount. Also small venting about the new demo mechs: WHY CAN YOU NOT BE STRIPPED REEEEEEEEEE, also your inconsistent DR is poop, I 1hko in solo and need 5-10s if im in a 4man... damage sponge go brrr ig
18:02 it was even worse in a full squad because of the increased enemy spawns. I'm not over exaggerating when I say that you could not see ANYTHING on your screen because it was full of particle effects vomit. I had to resort to using the enemy health bars for aiming my weapons and abilities. And killing the Eximus units was useless because they were all back up in a few seconds.
The problem with ancients is if you add the healing mechanics to them while also making them cc able is just to group and kit bash them. While also replacing healer eximus units. my idea i could think of would to make them like arbitation drones. That being like the enemies in the radius are immue to their health taking damage. And the ancient recives scaled% overguard to it ancient from all allies in the radius. With any damage done to both ancients or enemies is added like a reversed rhino's iron skin and when the ancient dies all enemies in the radius are hit with all of it at once, includeing the ancient once overgaurd has been depleted.
(preemptive "sorry for bad english") So i thought about this for a bit and came up with this sort of overguard "rework" and want to hear what you guys think about it. Overguard is still fully immune against CC HOWEVER: 1. Overguard can be removed with 1 hit from ANY weapon or operator (damage from abilities CANNOT remove overguard in any way, exalted/pseudo exalted weapons included) 2. After overguard is removed affected enemy redirects his agro to the player that removed said overguard (if they don't already) and becomes FULLY INVULNERABLE to damage (but not CC since he no longer has overguard) for 2.5s (time subject to change, took time from max shieldgate as base) 3. This invulnerability can be INSTANTLY DISABLED with: -operator damage (option for damage players) --if removed this way affected enemy will be briefly staggered (something similar to impact proc or maybe even make it do one) to give time to get back into warframe -ANY CC, even from weapons (except cold/impact procs maybe) -breaking noxs helmet (exception for this guy to keep his unique mechanic in place) What (i think) this means for: -damage players: instead of being just a tougher bullet sponge overguarded enemies become an "OH SHIT" moment that needs to be dealt accordingly (with operator) -CC players: you can now deal with overguarded enemies more easily but still need to at least locate them and click on them, if you ignore them you still get clapped and that's on you Potential problems (that i thought of as of writing this comment): -pre war within players will get spooked by eximus units way more than usual
9:20 My only complaint with this comment, and I only have it because I love Limbo, is that some CC heavy frames, Like Limbo, are also less durable. I have always found Limbo a very flimsy frame, but this was saved by the fact that I could, freeze the world and regain my shields. Now that I have a enemy type that not only dishes out a large amount of damage, but also denies me that survivablitly...
As someone who has mainned Limbo since 2017, I agree with your complaints about the current state of CC and overguard. I do dislike the new Deep Archimedean as a lot of the risk variables just seem, hard to be hard, they don't really add anything unique or fun gameplay wise. I think the risk variables OR the limited loadouts would have worked better, as you can't even pick frames or weapons to work with your personally modifiers, or the risk variables. My first deep Archimedean I got Octavia or Oberon as the two frames I owned, alongside -75% ability duration which complete kills Octavia's whole kit. I still took here, I just didn't take max points that week. And something to take note of is that I don't really mind overguard in general gameplay. Because overguard does not stop units from entering the rift. And once they're in the rift, if stasis is active, they can't use ranged attacks besides any eximus auras. And these few exceptions actually helps Limbo's gameplay in my opinion. It would be boring (for me personally) to sit in a bubble, cast stasis and then never have to worry about an enemy again. The use of things like overguard makes it much more engaging as a player to be forced to interact with some units, while still scratching the power fantasy itch that is stopping an entire room and gunning down helpless victims. Of course, the deep Archimedean and healers basically disable his kit which is a little annoying, but I don't think every frame has to be viable for every mission. Which is why I don't mind the CC immunity on Demolishers because disruption just doesn't feel like a CC type game mode and I personally think it's okay if not every frame works all the time. Perhaps ideally they could, but there are far larger offended that I'd rather be fixed before things like Disruption and ESO. Defense changes would be nice however due to inconsistencies even when using damage/nuke frames. On the contrary, the things that I really do mind are the nullifiers. Especially because of endless ramping during fissures like excavation. I basically can't use Limbo against Corpus or Corrupted. I would be fine if the nullifier bubble would make the nullifier and all units inside the bubble immune to stasis without breaking cataclysm. This has always been annoying to me because it makes it hard to bring any true defensive frame (Frames like Limbo, Frost, Gara, or Khora) to excavation fissures because all it takes is a single nullifier spawning too close to the excavator and boom, the barrier is gone and the high level endless enemies insta break the excavator. And as an important footnote note for Limbo: Not sure if it's just an ignored bug or a stupid game design, but some defense type objectives are immune to the rift and can be shot by enemies from outside the rift. The main offenders being things like the coildrive defense during Orb Vallis bounties, as well as thermia canisters during the thermia fractures event. Which makes the strongest part of Limbo's kit completely useless for something he's normally very good at, timed defense.
y'know i can usually deal with all of that, but with the archimedea i just stopped caring after the first 2 weeks. i just hate being locked into a playstyle that i probably don't enjoy with the only reason for any difficulty being that i got a doodoo roll and am now dead weight to my team even if i have all the options built but they just suck. it's not too hard, it's just annoying beyond a point of it being reasonable for me to care to get the rewards.
Yes ! Absolutely yes to all of this ! I thought I was subscribed before, was not, fixed that mistake, what a great video I just watched thank you for making it :DD
In the past, I’ve also suggested the idea of making Overguard immune to AOE/Ability damage, but a large amount of damage reduction on Overguard is probably a better idea. Additionally, the real reason Eximi are immune to CC is because Pablo wanted the players to see the fresh new ability animations lol
Pablo should never have been let near the update fuck your animations if i care about them il look in the simulation space the whole Eximus rework hell 90 fucking % of AOZ was a mistake and should have been scrapped it was bad buggy and boring for anyone not in the 'ultimate super end game' te ONLY change they made that i agreed with that wasnt a glitch filled fuck up was giving Operators shields and that needed to be fought for as a bandaid over the gaping wound of the void static or whatever its called that will kill your frame in 4 Op deaths and the fact we were all but expected to use the kid to deal with overgag
I feel like overguard feeling like 99.9% of the ehp also defeats its purpose, maybe something like the first enemy hit by a shot takes a lot (and mean like 100x if not more) more overguard damage. (Also solving the chaining weapon problem since they are often considered “single target”)
As a Limbo main. *_FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, PLEASE HELP ME. I HAVE TO RESORT TO SUBSUMING ABILITIES IN ORDER TO NOT INSTANTLY DIE FROM A LEVEL 200 TOXIC EXIMUS THAT HAPPENED TO EXIST IN MY AREA CODE._*
I been playing as long as you have and I want to say I normally don’t watch long videos like this but your points your topics and your criticisms were on point! I appreciate your video its layout and comprehension of the topic at hand. I thumps up your video for this and I might not subscribe as of yet since this is my first video I have seen of yours over the many years I have watched Warframe videos. I am right there with you DE please take any of this video’s criticism and please try to implement it. I truly believe he is on to something here.
I'm super late to this video but still wanted to chime in and say that this is super well done. We have a problem, context, impact, and proposed solutions. All neat wrapped up with a bow. Good stuff. Only retort from me is on the Operator solution to Overguard, since as it stands now, new players face Eximus units long before accessing their Operator. That whole situation would become its own problem needing its own solution if Operator became the intended way to combat enemies players encounter long before Second Dream.
Honestly it seems like Digital Extremes need to make game modes designed around dishing out CC effects instead of killing in order to have any understanding of how the abilities function.
If I'm not totally drowned out I had a terrible idea of my own while watching this. Put on your big boy pants: let's make Overguard work like baby mode mesmer skin. 1) Overguard health is much lower than live but has very short invincibility gates. I'm thinking four separate 0.2 second gates. They're visually denoted by marks in its health bar. 2) When a gate is triggered, the enemy is briefly staggered like an Impact proc. 3) When the last gate is triggered, the unit immediately uses its special ability if it hasn't been able to yet. 4) Gate checks happen AFTER damage takes place, up to the remaining health of the Overguard bar. This means you can 1-shot the Overguard if it's a single damage instance, which will immediately trigger its special ability and leave it vulnerable but not kill it. 5) Whenever an eximus with overguard becomes the target of a CC ability a single gate is removed and it becomes briefly staggered the same way it would be had it been removed by damage, but it does not trigger the 0.2 second invulnerability period that removal via damage would trigger. 6) Persistent CC auras such as snow globe can only remove 1 gate from each eximus every 6 seconds at a fixed rate to make it technically valid but prevent passive removal even in a full squad of AoE CC (no one is going to wait 24 seconds to remove all 4 gates instead of damaging it). Adding all this together, Eximus units CAN be very slightly CC'd by CC abilities, where all CC abilities function like a single Impact proc through gate removal triggers. Damage can still remove OG in a single hit if it's high enough, but rapid-fire high damage has to contend with damage gates. If anyone in ANY scenario was able to remove the entirety of a unit's overguard before it used an ability, it gets another chance to use it when the last gate is triggered, so it ALWAYS gets at least a single use. AoE CC abilities are generally about as effective as a single cast of any other CC abilities on overguarded units that enter the area. To add to this, non-Eximus/Special units that would receive Overguard instead receive a similar thing called Warding. Warding is a special state where a normal health bar gets the CC-resistance and damage gate of an Overguard unit without additional health. Instead marks are added to the normal health bar to show when the next gate would trigger. Warding can have a number of gates per the effect source instead of a flat 4. So for example, ancient healers could add 1 warding gate to allies, preventing one shots and/or providing one instance of CC resistance before being removed. CC abilities skipping the damage immunity of gate removal creates this unique effect where in some cases, to max damage against gate-affected units you need explicitly a non-damaging ability. I think all this actually achieves a somewhat happy medium, holy shit
Honestly this a lot of how i have felt lately, like every build that is endgame viable (deep arcamedia, netracells, really anything in the labs right now) is just the same room nuke or stupid tanky. like i enjoy nuke builds as much as anyone else but i miss the slower cc based builds that used to exist and now are just unplayable in meaningful content.
I'd like to build on the timer drain mechanic you offered for SO/ESO. I was thinking each enemy contributes individually to efficiency decay, and when they are CC'ed, this decay will be largely slowed but not completely stopped, so around a 40-50% slower rate of efficiency drain. You still have to kill enemies to gain that efficiency again, but the decay isn't as strong as it usually would be resulting in a healthy mix of damaging frames and CC frames being viable for the gamemode.
As someone who's played for almost as much time as yourself (My time's at like 7k hours at this point) I appreciate that you didn't just say, "Yep. These are a problem. IDK what to do, fix it please!" The solutions you came up with, particularly the one for the Healers, are good, and here's hoping that DE finds it in their hearts to agree to at least some of the changes!
Honestly Operator mode just sucks mass ass. Having to rely on specific schools to patch holes in a kit like energy regen and combo decay (that should both be baseline) and having some schools be useless is just shitty design. They should just integrate more enemies that are weak to operators, make operators more fluid to play and then add actual weapons instead of the amps to make playing as operator and warframe back and forth a fluid and fun process.
I agree Operators deserve more work, I don't think that buffs from schools are necessarily just Band-Aids, but more incentive to play them and more options when actually doing so would both be nice.
@@CoolKid369 i agree the new schools arent bandaids back in the first weeks of AOZ they didnt even rate that good ive said it once twice and a thousand more times there was NOTHING worth saving from AOZ other then adding shields to Operator it all should have been scrapped and redone
Honestly when they anounced the eximus rework i was expecting a good rework that give eximus some personality that made them a threat like other horde shooters do like vermintide 2 or l4d2 where if you let them alive they destroy you but they can easily die if you spot them ahead + the whole anounce the enemy before it shows up and sounds of the enemy itself I even tough overguard at first only was made to make cc and dmg abilties not been ablee to instakill eximus but your weapons biapased the overguard completely Instead we got this and to be frank it killed my love for the game completely,making me stay on vermintide 2 for like 2 years i ocasinally comeback for new content but i don stay for too long ,Warframe nowdays dificulty seems so cheap its just more health more armor more overguard rather than making the foes you are facing interesting
I think we have gotten some enemies that are fun and interesting, lots of Murmur enemies have cool effects and targetable weak spots for example, but I agree that much of the difficulty feels like just requiring more bullets and reducing options.
Changing OverGuard to only be damaged while enemies are CC'd could be a good away to curb their power. Of course, fully CCing enemies with OG prevents enemies from using abilities, so reducing the CC effects could be an answer to the problem.
I really liked the focus of this video, DE tends to forget CC it's a type of playstile and some of us like it more than nuking, also i liked your ideas for CC getting back up to meta and keep up with the nuking type of playstile
Edit: hey all, a few things to note:
I wanna apologize for the EXTREMELY annoying squeaking noise in the background, my chair was feeling nefarious and I didn't notice at the time. This took me like 2 and a half hours to record and I couldn't fix it in post, so just uh, I dunno, listen on bad speakers or lower the volume, I'll fix it by the next video (probably).
I also wanna add that Corrupted Ancients are more noticeable than regular Healers, as ranged units stick near them, so they don't just wander out of the radius. Even so, its still like 2 enemies at any given time and they're still flawed. I also forgot to mention how Arbitration Drones nullify CC, and I think it would be totally fair to allow enemies under their effect to be CCable. Last thing is about Nullifiers, where a lot of people mentioned that their shield regenerating causes a lot of problems, so they could be changed to lose their bubble permanently when it breaks to avoid this. To keep the shield drone relevant, maybe it could do like a radial electric proc or somesuch when destroyed, but that's just an idea.
A lot of people also disagree with my idea of changing defense, and while I still stand by it, I think that there could be a compromise: killing Eximus reducing the timer by 5 seconds. Considering that they have Overguard CC won't stop them from getting close enough to be killed, so I think that could be a solid way to strike a balance.
Also, I want to note that Inaros is a very CC focused character even post rework. I didn't count him as a lot of those elements are carried over from his older kit, but in the name of fairness I think it is noteworthy that they did keep this part of Inaros' identity intact (which funnily enough makes the hesitancy to rework Loki even more confusing).
Lastly, to all of the people who are simply saying I have a skill issue or somesuch, please actually listen to my argument on this. This game is easy as shit, I am well aware of that fact, I am not proposing changes with the goal of making the game easier. I find it sad that a once rich playstyle has been abandoned and the frames that use it consequently crippled, and I want to allow people to play the game in ways other than damage spam. If you like spamming damage, that's fine, but it doesn't mean the problem does not exist.
oh i thought that was just your voice /j
That's not Unique to Ancient Healers.... I've Seen Enemies glue to Nullifiers and Arbitration Drones too...
The Latter will Intentionally Position itself Behind the Same Enemies it's Protecting because Apparently Full Invincibility wasn't Annoying Enough Already. 😐
I never heard a squeak once. Maybe because of my audio settings.
I didn't even notice the sound lol
Personally I _still_ don't think Loki needs a "rework." Simply making Decoy scale made it incredibly useful for a whole lot of content, as it is one of THE strongest threat generators in the entire game, and there is footage out there showing it'll literally prevent Defence targets from being attacked. In a similar vein, making Switch Teleport more usable in general is still appreciated.
The only part of his kit that is outright lacking for me, currently, is Radial Disarm, which could REALLY use a damage vuln component to make it relevant outside of its CC functionality. From there, the only gripe is with Invisibility not being meaningfully distinct from Ash's invis, and his passive not really seeing a whole lot of usage since people have almost zero reason to wall latch all that much, but its usage isn't completely zero; if they made Switch Teleporting from a wall latch dangle the affected target from a choking wire for Loki's modded wall latch duration with threat generation and friendly fire, we could see some funny stuff going on with Damage Decoy.
i took a shot every time he said overguard or crowd control, and drank so much i integer overflowed into being sober
Bing's solution to alcohol poisoning.
Today's top comment 😂😂
Your honor, I wasn't drunk driving. I had drank so much I was actually sober again
the Deep Rock Galactic approach to drinking
A playtester walks into a bar, that's what they'd do.
I simply need to mention this lovely interaction.
If you pop a nully bubble, and drag him into a vauban vortex, he'll be able to recast his bubble while actively being stuck in the vortex, thereby cancelling the ability and *freeing everyone affected, not just himself*
Is that good or bad? I think it sounds cool.
@@ninjaeddy1717 It's bad.
@@ninjaeddy1717 it basically turn off the entire vauban ability without reason
Same goes for zephyr tornadoes :(
Same applies to limbo and his cata. You wanna bust most eximus and nulls down with cc and damage as limbo? Invest in rift torrent and subsume a wisp for breach and bust their heads closing to 5 mill with molt aug stacked and arcane energizer
Saw the thumbnail and thought it said “He Doesn’t Understand Overguard” and was offended that you thought the Ancient didn’t understand Overguard.
I’m sure Mr Ancient would love this video as much as the rest of us do.
Considering he doesn't apply it consistently, he probably doesn't understand it lol
It's not his fault that the other creatures keep walking out of his radius. I wouldn't reapply it to those strays either...
They should add some form of "brittle" enemy to the game. A tough motherfucker of a unit that "breaks" when CC'd to incentivize teams to have both CC and high damage.
This is how Guild Wars 2 does boss enemies. I think that making some Eximus units function like this could be interesting.
Ounce you can cc eximus there is literally no threats in the room whatsoever. They need more enemies that make me feel like i could possibly die.
@@jaketheman1577 DE could make it so overguarded enemies still don't get CC entirely. Like Rhino's Stomp prior to the recent consistency patch, having CC immune enemies still take a short slow instead of outright disabling them could be a way to have CC make an impact while not entirely effing up the Eximii mechanisms. For auras or lingering CC effect, make it a weak, lingering slow while in the AoE of the CC.
Combined with making Overguard naturally resistant against AoE/Ability damage unless CC'd at least once would make it so you'd have a reason to take a CC frame in your team.
RN, the only reason to use a Vauban in a team is to Flechette everything to death, and hopefully do so quickly by grouping with a Vortex. Bastille itself is of little use.
And even that is only worth it in a static mission type.
It's not like Eximii are currently that dangerous or hard to kill either. Blitz and Toxic Eximii are the only ones I would consider dangerous... If the toxic ones weren't so weak. The others are an annoyance at best. But an annoyance that is best dealt with with death, which is by far the best CC of all... even tho it could have been more diverse than that if it had been crafted thoughtfully.
@@tapirdebainThis is the way
It should be it's own type of special unit @KokoMakesThings
DE relying on removing gameplay tools and options in the name of "difficulty" is getting more and more concerning. The game isn't hard when I can still just cheese everything. It's just more tedious and narrow in gameplay.
To be fair CC and not killing fast enough is also annoying, you can already do super CC with icewave augment and it's just ok hard support.
How is DE supposed to make challanges for people who have every weapon, frame, and mod?
The only way to create meaningful conflict is by narrowing the range of what you have access to. A MR30 player has zero challenge with any content since they have EVERY answer.
@KokoMakesThings The problem with that is something that's just a byproduct of how DE has made this game though and how they've rewarded players for progressing. EVERY game has a contingency of players that will minmax the difficulty of even the most broken game modes into nonexistence. Scaling the difficulty to challenge the most busted players in the community, when they are in the minority, hurts the game's balance. I'm L3 and overguard is still ridiculous because it punishes players that aren't as far along to be busted so they can't compete with these numbers, while ALSO harming the players that are this far because it tales away all the stuff we have gotten by playing so much. You just kinda gotta let the OP players be OP, and if they complain, deal. It's harsh, but it's healthy for the game overall. Players like Brozime that have mapped out the math to the decimal points are always gonna shit on the game's challenges no matter what DE does.
@KokoMakesThings Warframe is not designed for traditional "challenge" as it is a power fantasy horde shooter. Taking away the gear that we work to earn is disrespectful to the time investment made in build crafting that the game greatly benefits from. It's also lazy to just remove options rather than making more engaging gameplay around what is already available. Creating interactive and engaging hoops for players to jump through is a great way to add depth to "endgame" content. An example is having completely invulnerable enemies that require a simple gimmick to remove their invulnerability (think similar to kuva guardians) such as being invulnerable until you slide into them to knock them on their backs. Another thing is having procedurally generated puzzles (simple ones of course) that players need to do while being bombarded by enemies (would also help to indirectly buff CC). Think similar to the sacrifice quest but better where you find codes on a walls of specific rooms and you have to input them into a machine to advance to the next room. Minor optional parkour challenges that can pop up in high-level content that give you a lot of resources or valuable items. These are just a few ideas off the top of my head that would add depth to the gameplay and could be combined with other mechanics to make for some entertaining and engaging endgame.
@KokoMakesThings that's bc every answer to every piece of content is literally just shoot at it. More complex answers don't exist, and neither does gameplay depth.
I remember seeing the Eximus rework and thinking, "huh, that looks interesting"
And then getting curbstomped by overguarded blitz and toxic eximus that were immune to everything
Love these video-essay form videos, keep up the great work man!
I liked the idea of Void damage (And operators) being a focus of taking down overguard
It sorta felt like a design intention that Zenurik's Void Drag slowed eximus down, as well as operators doing bonus damage to overguard in the patch overguard was introduced
On the temporal drag no longer affecting them, I remember when they released overguard, they specifically said it's an immunity to "Warframe Crowd Control abilities" and temporal drag is not a warframe ability so it affected them (even though none of the other operator abilities like void levitation affected them), but obviously it doesn't anymore
Even though they considered using your operator to be the counter play to over guard, which using temporal drag kinda did, and that's pretty dead
It would be great if they brought forward the idea of using your operator to open them up, it is all about having to notice and act on an eximus and these proposed changes are a good stepping stone to that
I took a break from the game a while ago due to life and when I came back I didn't check much of the changes, so my first instinct was to assume that new enemy with a special coating on their health bar needed to be dealt with the operator, after a friend tipped my on overguard mechanics I realized it was just a dps check :/
Operator solution sounds bad cuz switching to operators works really bad on Consoles. You have tons off buggs stunlocking you in a permanent operator of warframe, while you cant do anything else. This solution requires and entire new look to operator playstyle and how it works/feels
Learning I could roll through the Arson eximus fire wave was a life changing event.
A reasonable and critical video without any dev bashing? The Warframe subreddit is rapidly approaching your location.
I find the Demolisher idea good, but there is a tweak I'd argue is needed. And that's the Demolishers should have an automatic explosion when the timer ends with a set radius. If you kill the Demolisher, then it doesn't blow up, meanwhile if you control the target from getting close to the conduit so that the auto-detonation doesn't hit it. This creates 2 paths, either pour out damage to destroy them, or use CC to keep them away.
Some CC would be far better then others, it would allow a more CC focused style, while not leaving a CC disabling enemy just running around. Had that happen once because of Pathfinding issues, just kinda found it running around.
Fair point! I forgot about that fact
Specifically instructed to wait until the video is over before commenting, commenting in defiance at the 1:00 mark
THY END IS NOW
JUDGEMENT
**Uses Soul Survivor Augment**
CRUSH
YOU CAN'T ESCAPE!
*BOOM*
Make eximus units consume 1/3 of their overguard to cast enhanced abilities (With a cool draining animation on the health bar during their cast windup). Once overguard has been expended, the time between casts is increased or their power/range is reduced to current levels or lower.
My only problem with this concept is that fires and blasts are still liable to make you regret picking Inaros or Nidus if they show up at the wrong time
@@QuantemDeconstructorlol inaros? Nidus is still pretty solid as long as you’re solo/away from your team, he has a very selfish playstyle sadly
@@thethumblessn00b19 Ideally all frames are playable
Also losing 15 Mutation sucks sometimes
@@QuantemDeconstructor Roll through the fire blast and watch out for a blitz eximus?
I'm just surprised that amps can't be modded to this day
huh, when you think about it. that would be nice. specially in Duviri.
Honestly, the biggest loser when Overguard first became a thing (aside from Limbo lol) was Grendel. His entire kit ceases to exist without dudes in his belly. The bolstered belligerents modifier literally turns off an entire warframe, and just not being able to vacuum up overguarded enemies felt really bad
Grendel in Eximus stronghold just becomes pre rework Inaros
Reduced CC effectiveness like what happened with Sentients in Scarlet Spear is what I would really prefer.
It wasn't an all or nothing situation, it punished mindlessly CCing the entire map but was still effective for slowing down the elite enemies briefly making them easier to deal with. CC frames like Limbo weren't made useless, it just forced them to play smarter and it reduced how disruptive they were to the rest of the squad/mission flow.
The duviri defense with all the eximus units on the steel path portals really indeed can get kind of overwhelming to deal with, so we always have one friend on how we like to call it "Eximus Janitor" so we have more control over it and more breathing room they can really stack up in the portal SP defenses in duviri you are really going to enjoy your time
As someone who has also played this game for 10 years, I really want to thank you for being the voice of reason (as I see it) in the community. I wholeheartedly believe that this game is just this close to getting it right, but without proper communication with the community (and honestly who can blame DE for not wanting to touch the warframe subredit), changes are relatively slow. But they do happen, which is so much more than I can say about other games.
And about the video, I hold the belief that Trib makes some of the greatest warframe content on the platform, and it's gonna be very hard to rise up to his level of quality, yet here you are. From the status tierlist to the "weird status effects" and all the other vids, you're really high up there. Thanks for dedicating yourself to this game, more than most of us have, and genuinely being entertaining while also keeping it coherent. Keep it up! You're gonna go far CoolKid! (get it? The Offspring reference?.... I'm old, I know.)
Edit: Grammar
As good as I'm sure tribs videos are, I simply cannot stand listening to his voice tbh
imagine enemies could've gather around nullifier inside his bubble so they could move into limbo's 4th ability without being stunned
fun fact, most things are still affected by marked for deaths stun for no apparent reason
DE genuinely forgot about that ability lol
That picture of Wally was pretty stimulating ngl.
The funny thing about this is overgaurd didnt do its original job to the point DE now makes certain enemies invincible while they do their special move.
I think all your complaints are pretty fair, and you actually seen to understand why they added overguard unlike most conversations I see about the topic.
I think the overguard granted by healers and the hands are not really a big deal, as I kinda just see that as a way to telegraph a damage resistance buff that you can take care of, even if the enemies it is applied to dont actually have any special attacks to warrant them having overguard. It is kind of like the corpus shield drones but if their sheild recharge made enemies CC immune. Though I could see a fair argument for enemies like the healer and hand enemy not applying the CC immunity and only damage resistance which would still incentivise you to deal with them first.
And I agree that they are going a little to heavy with the overguard spam. I would prefer if they pivot to different types of modifiers for creating interesting scenarios. I also think they could look into CC still having some effect on Overguard, like a % overguard strip over time from CC abilities so that they still have some use while keeping the original intent of overguard intact. I like some of the possible fixes you presented as well
I wouldn't mind the wardens if it weren't for the fact that they can only be damaged on the arms, but can turn 180 degrees near instantly. It makes it extremely frustrating trying to deal with them.
To add to the EDA with the eximus fragmented tide, I too have completed that mission. It took a squad of 4 people about 15 minutes of continuous bullet jumping and reviving to take the dude down. There were probably upwards of 20 eximus units cramped into the tiny arena and the fact we even managed on itself is a miracle.
The operator solution is lowkey kind of genius. I would love a reason to make operators decent, even if it means making amps do a bit more damage cause i really hate operator as they are now.
They should’ve made operators just above or right under warframes in terms of power
I’d love the ability to switch to operator during a mission because I want to
Not because I have to, to get my buffs and whatever
Let me use void infused guns and melee
let me move with style and flow not exactly like warframes but give me a little bit more movement freedom.
Give me void abilities based on the focus school that I choose
That affect myself in operator mode and my warframe and my entire team.
This addition would add so much more variety to builds and warframes combat in general.
Also it’s just great to make players be more engaged with certain mechanics of the game that require a different method that isn’t warframe big dmg numbers.
We need operator mode to be good and fun and solid
not fast paced
Just properly done
And lore wise the Tenno and their void powers are supposed to be a force so strong no enemy can defeat them that easily
make that possible in actual gameplay not just lore.
I hope DE is considering this but they’re just waiting for the right update to implement this change
Like us meeting void father or man in the wall
Void devil
Unlocks full control and power of the void
Or a quest where after we defeat void devil we take full control of the void and it supercharges our health, shields, armor and gives us the freedom to choose abilities for our Tenno and the strength to wield weapons that are as good or better than wf warframes but imbued with void dmg
Give us the ability to mod our weapons and our operators
Put in mods in the game that are Tenno focused mods that provide support for the warframe when you switch to it and vice versa
Like idk man just something
Cuz right now operators are just a side upgrade tool for wf and they shouldn’t be.
My biggest gripe on operators is some of the minor things that really slow them down to me. No bullet jump or even double jump for example. They actually take fall damage. Sure they have their void dash but that is far harder to control than the Warframe’s movements. And it’s arguable that if you fix operators to have no difference in movement then why have them exist at all? I’ve never enjoyed operator gameplay as it feels like slamming on the brakes compared to how free your movement is in your Warframe.
When youre running high level sp defense and the Jade Light eximus trailing behind you one shots the objective:
As a Limbo Main I’m not too upset by these issues because I have ways of working around it (cold procs go brrrrr) but they seriously need to give some CC abilities the ability to bypass overguard again or have reduced effectiveness on CC over no effectiveness. Or just make it work like player Overguard giving status immunity.
That would Defeat the Purpose of Overguard 🤔
@@lookalike4805 if DE is creating BS rules for enemies then we should have some as well bud.
@@lookalike4805 The purpose of Overguard for players is to serve as a free health pool, the purpose of Overguard for enemies is to stop them from being turned off by CC-there are many ways to implement either of this without straight CC immunity
@@lookalike4805 Much like DE, you don't understand overguard either.
@cadenr7165
The purpose of Overguard is to Do Exactly what's doing now....
@Seoul_Soldier
Doesn't Bother me.. doubt It Bothers DE either. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
DE also doesn't understand that all I want are some dual MIGHTY SEERS
the peepers
dual kuva-prime seers!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@cralo2569 yes please!
@@cralo2569 and DUAL TWIN GRAKATA PRIMEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This comment is a placeholder, i wanted to push the Algorythm.
You´re growing to be my favorite Warframe creator
This video was just so good, and so needed man.
I truly hope that DE will do something to help and heal the damage they did.
Okay so; 8:25 I know the Eximus update is a bit ago, but 2 prime examples of how DE nerfed Enemies to not do this in is significant.
Lowering the enemy level in certain quests, Sayah´s vigil pretty much introducing the Nox just let´s you run past it with melee.
Any Eximus is also just a Glowing variant from other enemies, you headshot it on earth and it´s dead. you melee it on earth it´s dead.
Rolling is also never explored, many things. I actually just put up a forum post about Difficulty and New player experience, cuz i think this leads to damage being the only relevant way to play the game.
A few Ideas Fighting the damage meta from me;
Adaptation for eximus units with a quick fall-off. This affects CC AND DAMAGE, however CC degrades the Damage immunity, and Damage degrades theyr CC immunity.
The same mechanic could work on Sentients, making them actually challanging and less of a Damage bar again.
Honestly the same mechanic should be used for Bosses aswell, imagine a 10% Cap per strike 4x for headshots cuz they hard to hit, that cap stays the same, and perhaps that triggers the actual Adaptation.
A knockback from blast and impact could be always the same duration, making it a little more relevant, while scaling duration suffers with each cast.
Another new Enemy type to deal with this issue would be a debuff Eximus, an Aura that nerfs the damage output of the player, with the aura growing like Nullifier bubbles,
but can be reduced by cc again, and propperly damaged from far away, perhaps making Snipers a bit more convinient too.
The operator idea actually also is good, but i gotta disagree; Amps CAN DO MASSIVE DAMAGE. With arcanes and all, i can oneshot SP Heavys with Armor strip.
That is convinient for a skilltree that offers instant armor strip.
Most other options, besides crit are weak though, because damage always overrules everything. Which is why Status still needs some buffs. Especially with weird Status caps that just deny playstyles.
For gameplay and mission types, yeah Defense need something. Atleast the first 5 waves should go by with time, and be a total extermination on the FINAL stage.
The worst part is to look for that last enemy each wave, that feeling is something we all hate.
Otherwise it would be pretty funny to have enemies spawn infinetly, and always stay there.
With certain AOE nukes, it would possibly make it more efficient to bundle all waves enemies and delete them with the bramma or something, making saving ammo and run arounds.
The capture one, i also just Feel so hard. There is no reason for it to work like that. Especially since the game was supposed to be stealth, yet that enemy just knows all, and status immunity is so boooring.
I think any enemy that is "immune" to anything, we have clear mechanics like Acholytes going invincible, and getting cleared of status which i respect, but then we have that limit of 4 Heat and viral procs, which makes certain builds super weak and condition overloads nerfed as hell.
Abilities like Mesa´s 4 should also work, just with that damage reduction to force some rethinking, and CC to deny some Telegraphed attacks is also totally valid, of course no 10 second Root but let me use my stuff damn!
Or a slow is cool.
For ESO; You know that bounty mission where you need to keep the area clear of enemies? If Sanctuary worked a little more like that, and CC´d enemie would ignore the Domination-percentage, that would be very nice. Actually making defense work like that is also a good idea no?
40:32 for the timer. i think its less clear now than it was at launch that the timer is a built in safety net for when the demolisher bugs out, fails to path or fails to spawn.
I remember it being fairly common when the gamemode first rolled out to pass the timer without seeing or finding the demo because it got lost or spawned out of bounds.
On the note of gamemodes, one thing I always think can be addressed is the reward quality & pace in missions. As it stands, Void Capture is the best for farming (most) relics and exterminate/rescue fissures are usually the most ran mission types for its speed as well as allowing damage to flourish there. (There is also some T6 fissure nodes that are quite good too)
Back in the day Xini Eris and Heirachon Pluto were go to farms for all kinds of stuff but because these nodes were Interception & Excavation, it organically allowed the use of CC without feeling forced or arbitrary. By design these nodes worked well with CC, but because there isn't a huge reason to run these missions anymore, CC doesn't get to see much organic use, a great example as you've mentioned is Mirror Defense but I think doing a reward rebalance/overview of many older nodes could do justice. Even as simple as adding 2 items per rotation in interception can go a long way. Enough to compete with Void Capture? Not a chance, but enough to make the modes feel genuinely decent in today's era of Warframe. Though this example is a specific one I like to bring up.
That's honestly a very good idea, I hadn't even thought of it like that!
Its the weird dichotomy, where Overguard provides a Resistance to Damage (by adding eHP), a Resistance to Status (capped procs), but then just flat out negates CC.
Your Fair/Unfair difficulty is somethng I've written myself. Though I used the term reductive/subtractive difficulty. Where the game removes its mechanics (randomly or otherwise) rather then promoting scenarios that require creative and complete use of the games entire toolkit. A hyperbolic example would be if a shooter simply decided you could only reload twice per level, or randomly jammed your gun to prevent you from shooting. For Helldivers I'd cite the difference between fire tornados that force you to reposition and move, cold conditions that influence your weapon choicses, vs Ion Storms disabling your strategems or the (only on high difficulties) planet modifier that cuts your 4 tools to 3.
Rather then halfing soft effects, or softening hard effects (Paralyze become slow, Disarm/jam become damage debuff, Blind becomes accuracy debuff) etc. (With the weird exception of Vauban, who's 4 does transform into a slow effect, which was added but undocumented)
Hard to tell much from Deep Archimedia. They got pressured for the Netracell loot tables being kind of derpy but evidently didn't want it to be overewarding (which is somewhat fair, its largely unfailable and simply a time sync for rewards and if it dropped guaranteed high end stuff arguably trivializing other things like Archon Hunts)
So it seems like DA just got rushed out with half upcycled ideas (like the RNG and various existing sortie/netracell/disruption mutators), and half random "throw it at the wall" brainstorming ideas without any significant evaluation (particularly when they double up randomly)
DE not understanding or having a vision for CC kind of comes from Pablo (who is now the chief gameplay guy) unfortunately having made tweets regarding Limbo, Loki, and CC in general that were very critical of it as a "turn the gameplay off" button, expressed inability to design around it. (Also the Hydroid rework, which took away huge chunks of CC utility from his kit in favor of making Saryn-lite)
CoolKid369 giving their non-meta-enslaved opinion on WF? You're about to sadly get jumped, kidnapped and tortured by being forced to watch KnightmareFrame putting PSF on every single frame in existence that doesn't even need it.
I agree with a lot, I don't think CC is dead as well but DE sometimes really discourages it with their choices for the game, but can only hope they can learn, take notes and tweak things to not feel like a chore to deal with.. Sometimes I ask if most of them even play their game at all, I know Pablo does, but the rest?.. I don't think they do very much, Anyways, Stockholm Syndrome is back to 100%, We lose these.
Also I am still mad Mirror Defense was brought back, I wanted another Void Armaggedon in the labs man, mode is a much more fun defense
Also about defence being time based - DA Mirror Defence (and Survival) have a neat semi-hidden function we could add so players won't feel they sit ducks until timer is over. Going near Mech dispenser you can forcibly spawn Eximus one, killing it reduces timer by 45s.
"Schitzo eximus units nobody else can see"
holy fuck my sides lmao
i had an idea as i was watching this:
a possible way to make overguard work with CC could be to let overguarded eximus take the full CC, but when you break through overguard, they "break out" and preform their special attack before going back to being CC'd.
my reasoning is that this allows you to CC eximus, but you need to be ready for their attack once overguard breaks.
some issues with this would be the possibility of CCing them again before they get an attack out, but that can be fixed with a simple timer or check. another issue would be implementing it into abilities that knockdown or ragdoll enemies, like Nezha's 4.
Just to quickly mention this, at 6:28 when you mention Nova's Molecular Prime; the reason it doesn't work on Overguard is because Molecular Prime *only* boosts damage dealt to enemy health, not to Shields or, as you showed, Overguard. Just less of an inconsistency thing and more of a weird ability quirk.
This discussion needed to happen. I have 5.5k hours in Warframe since late 2015. Everything this man said was a fact and I couldn't agree more with each detail. DE will either listen to these great ideas, or offer you a job. Great video.
If you've played the Game that long then you already know this is Going to play out. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
DE only listen to the chosen ones.
You mentioning wanting defense to have a timer instead of waves is interesting because i've been wanting a survival mode that's basically just defense without the defense target (and without air support) so i wanna propose splitting the game modes.
Wave Defense - Defense game mode unchanged but renamed
Timer Defense - Defense game mode with a timer instead of waves (What was suggested in the video)
Wave Survival - Defense game mode without a defense target, for a classic wave survival experience like found in other games
Timer Survival - Survival game mode unchanged but renamed
I feel like giving demolishers status reduction instead of immunity is an extremely obvious way to balance cc around them. They are, after all, enemies that are trying to get close to an objective, so it's weird how the only way to stop them is not to impair them in any way but to kill them within the time it takes them to reach it.
I'm honestly glad about the approach to Overguard being from the thesis of 'this was put in place because CC prevented enemies with unique mechanics from mattering'. I left a comment on the Trib video you mentioned in the intro to that effect, and a lot of people misinterpreted me as saying 'Overguard was implemented because CC was generally too powerful', and that I was Stupid for saying anything, but... No, the problem was actually that DE can't make a cool new enemy type that matters if you can just mass stun everything guaranteed, you're never gonna see a Blitz Eximus do the cool dangerous new shockwave blast move they programmed and animated if it's already asleep. The game design theory is sound on paper when you think about it from that angle; in a world where every warframe was usually coming with some 3 or 4 that was just 'massive radial AoE lockdown effect that tells everyone to fuck off', making priority threats was difficult and this was their solution.
The problem that has arisen is that the response provided by the players, which the devs leaned into, was 'what if we just dealt enough damage to an AoE of approximately the same effective size that we could just kill everything'. We got the one-two punch of Kullervo and Dagath one after another who basically kill at the same rate older frames could CC, and now we're at a point where we have frames like Dante and Jade doing some truly heinous shit to this poor video game where you can just kill enemies you don't even know exist yet. Of course CC is going to feel lower value when you can measure performance in KPM at Steel Path Level Cap, ESPECIALLY when they keep using Overguard as just something to add to make gameplay more difficult just for the way it inflates enemy HP and technically 'fights back against the player', ignoring how many frames this completely invalidates, because god forbid a Nidus player get to generate mutation stacks in a Circuit run, you'd really be breaking the meta with that Warframe from 2016.
Basically I'm glad this video is verbalizing the exact feelings I've had for a long time, good stuff
I know basically just reiterating it, but, yeah, this has kinda become a cat and mouse type game, where they try to make the players deal with unique abilities by preventing just soft neutralizing them, but since then the easiest solution then becomes just nuking them just like all the fodder enemies, players stop experiencing those abilities by annihilating them, so they feel need to force higher numbers of them so players have no choice, which just leaves CC lagging even further behind when they cant touch more and more of the percentage of enemies spawning with their abilities, when they function best against those types of special stronger foes, since damage can just wipe out all basic enemies quickly enough
Love the vid furry man, keep it up. I love this new wave of WF creators (not really new but starting to be seen) that aren't toxic and overly detrimental to the community that are supposed to be creating a healthy space of discourse rather than shutting down opinions and preferences.
Title: DE doesn't understand overguard
Me: I also don't understand overguard
Marge Simpson: I just think it's neat
Well said; I've had similar thoughts on these potential changes.
Frequent Nyx player
I see your longform video, and respond in kind. I apologize in advance, but at the same time, your critique of the situation and offer of ideas got me thinking, and I enjoyed the video a ton. So, here we go.
I wholeheartedly agree that there needs to be more interaction with overguard besides "Haha mesa 4 go brr" or "Incarnon [Name your crit weapon of choice here] brr" because if you can resolve overguard the same way you resolve big amounts of health in the "Numbers go up" style, then it's just DPS over actually doing your work of trying to resolve the problem intelligently or put any use to what you have.
I think CC abilities should definitely have some kind of effect. Vortex, Tornado, and other pulling effects should still work, but not ragdoll the target (Nautilus' cordon and Tether Grenades on the Penta launcher is a great example of this). This allows you to keep them in certain areas a bit more yes, but they can eventually break out (much like Sentients can adapt to damage types) while having overguard if allowed stay there too long. This lets you control the tide of battle for a time and single out or pull away dangerous enemies out of large groups to focus on them.
Abilities that slow might instead weaken the effects of the overguard ability user, as if it slows the flow of their power and affects the potency making reduced output, to a cap of course. This means any slowing effect, even cold procs, provides a means of granting breathing room and giving a better fighting chance.
Abilities that lift or hold enemies (Bastile, aegis storm, stomp, and so on.) would actively provide an effect that enhances that on enemies they support. This makes not only the enemies they support more visible (perhaps energy glow) but highlights the target that's causing trouble even more than before. While yes, they are already visible, if you have a horde of enemies blocking your sight, seeing some small group oddly glow tells you "hey there's an eximus over there" better when you're in the thick of it and don't always have the time to pick out that one eximus.
Abilities that blind might be able to for a very fixed duration disrupt an active in use ability. Arctic Eximus bubbles, toxic eximus fields, arson eximus shockwaves, and so on. Give it a bit of counterplay where you're not stopping the eximus themselves, but battling the eximus ability against ability to give, again, a moment of breathing room. You still have to fight them, but you can at least stop a group of eximus from filling up the field with all their abilities at once and end up getting piled on. Perhaps about 1-2 seconds since you are speedy movement ninja. Banshee specifically using Silence is an enhanced version of this, up to 4 seconds.
Look at each ability, and discover how you could change it's effects on overguard. Make it a fight where you get advantage with SOMETHING, rather than trying to just say "No CC, only damage. Go Brr or go home."
As for Operator interaction, Eximus units should deal significantly less damage to the operator, and the operator does increased damage to the eximus' overguard specifically. Outright nuking the shield shouldn't be possible, but make it a reason why someone else has to keep the eximus pinned with different cc and provide cover fire against normal units who can do more damage to the operator. Make it feel like it takes at least some form of intelligence and team effort, while someone else helps crack the shield. IF all it takes is one operator ability or trick to shatter it, then the ideal of defeating overguard is push operator button, smack once, go back, return to norm. There's no need to think about their abilities, just know they exist.
In my opinion, challenge exists best when you need tactics and strategy to at least some degree, not when the only solution is to min max your damage output so everything dies and then realize how shallow the meaning of overguard really becomes at that point. Again, If all you need is number go up, and a single gimmick invalidates the entirety of several warframes, you're just making people choose the Most Effective Tactic Available. Damage.
Oh, and also:
Ancient healers (and corrupted healers) need to function closer to what the warden does. Let tendrils of glowing mass in the style of infested latch onto a limited number of other non eximus enemies, and then make it so they are more visible. Also, limit active numbers of them as they should be treated similarly to the warden or maybe a little more by just a little bit. Wardens are a good idea executed well. Ancient healers feel like the prototype effort of wardens that need a proper rework.
I liked your 2nd idea about damage reduction on OG. I feel like you could go even further though. Why stop at damage reduction which many players won't even notice. Instead use damage attenuation, archon style. Then, when the enemy is affected by a CC effect, you could make the attenation more lenient for a few seconds. I think that would have the desired effect of making players slow down and interact with overguarded enemies.
I would also like to say that CC is still quite effective in places like the Circuit. My friends and I did multiple level cap circuit runs, week after week. The thing that was most helpful in getting us to level cap was a strong CC frame. I found that Nyx was one of the best. I would subsume Silence and then all the eximus units would spend their time fighting the other enemies that were aggrod on them.
I thought I was gonna spend like 5 mins listening to this video and then I stayed all the way to the end. Good content, just commenting to say thank you🤙
Thank you, warframe is a pretty special game and videos like these not only are entertaining but also helpful
My idea to change overguard is to make enemy partially immune to CC. Abilities that pull them enemies together would pull them slowly, and they can break free depending on their weight class. Sleep, blind, mind control would have a chance to not take effect.
That Pablo answer to the Loki rework felt so out of touch, I hope that he just misunderstood the question and DE is aware of the CC and Overguard situation
Either you die a hero a hero, or live long enough to become a villain.
Will Pablo be the fallen lord? His lack of understanding started with Yareli after all. (She is Pablo's creation, atleast the original release Yareli.)
@@ChangedCauseYT-HateFoxNames fire pablo Waveridder took all the fun i was having with K-Drives and smashed it to atoms with its cancerous requirements the jam myself in a corner on a perpetual rail grind was my only option
Simply put, fantastic video. I wish takes in this format and care were more the norm. You did incredible work on this and presented it all beautifully. I really hope this gets seen in full by DE. P.S. funny thing, this is my first video of yours, what a way to discover you! :)
Fantastic video! In parts, this is another example of how DE seems unwilling or incapable of trying balancing that does not rely on taking away from the players. The 50% overguard modifier actually made me laugh out loud when I first read it.
It's by no means easy to balance this game and I agree with you on the point that many people think they can do it for the developers. What you can and should criticize is the fact that they have basically stopped trying other routes. Essentially every recent change for "difficulty" and "balance" has been following this philosophy of inhibiting the players gameplay/choice. Same for the latest example, I do not like EDA as a concept, good or bad gear aside. I never want to have my gear choices limited personally.
There needs to be some attempts that focus on demanding more from the player (as an example; mechanics that either make you use your brain or demand more precise inputs). And if they flop that's fine. I'm pretty sure the community will help DE out until it works.
A friend still plays or at least pays more attention to warframe than I do and described the new endgame boss. "It turns off all your abilities and strips you of your buffs" and I had to raise my hand and stop him because I could not understand the fun in that. Apparently some hardcore players liked that idea?! In a game about being a ninja and using cool abilities to interrupt your enemies... "Yeah because it's about how good you are mechanically." Riiight.
Here's another idea for changing how Overguard interacts with CC (which other people have probably also come up with but fuck it), which is essentially the opposite of status reduction: Make it so crowd control effects slowly drain overguard. This way, instead of enemies becoming slowly attuned to CC making them more dangerous over time, their OG acts as a resource granting limited protection from CC. This would accomplish a few things I think:
-Crowd control helps softening up overguarded enemies before engagement, because their OG is already lowered
-Situations like you being crowded by 500 eximus in a bossfight are avoided, because they all become susceptible to CC after some time so you only have to hold out for a while
-Straight damage to Overguarded enemies is still a very viable option to deal with them quickly. CC effects help with this, because they also add damage to the OG, so they can actually compete with damage buffing effects
-Different enemies can have differing resistances to CC, so enemies protected by ancients or Archimedea effects have lower OG pools so they become susceptible to CC quickly, while bulkier Eximus enemies can withstand for longer
I also think the idea with the operator is really good. I think ideally this would be an addition to other changes rather than the only one
Making defence time based reminded me of when i once solod a defence archon hunt and the enemies were too tough for me but i had khora, so while i or the defence target didnt die, the whole 10 waves took about 30 minutes to do since i didn't have the damage at the time
Here's an idea for Disruption: Maybe those saboteur units have way less health and when reduced to 0 go into a knock down state. A player then has to stand close to it and wait a second or a tiny target to appear for a single second, which must be shot directly. (No cheesing with AOE.) It has minimal health so any gun can crack it with a single shot, but you have to be fully aware of the target and be ready to shoot it. If you fail to shoot the target before it blinks away, the unit gets back up with half the health and movement speed. Repeat until you shoot the target.
CC would allow you to quickly create a moment of calm in a storm, so you can line up your shot perfectly while the trash mobs around you are snoozing. Perhaps to reward setting this up, shooting the target makes the saboteur detonate and send all CCed units in a generous radius ragdolling to the moon. The reason for this is A: Ragdoll physics are funny, and B: it rewards players for engaging with the unit's unique mechanics and using CC in a facilitative way.
Deadlock protocol ambience always goes hard.
Reminds me of when DE first introduced a really dumb band aid solution years ago when they tried to put difficulty in the game. It was called the Nullifier.
Funnily, I made my own video covering how Disruption is effectively just endless capture. And how the timer exists but seemed to just be a leftover of the earlier concept they originally showed on dev stream. And the modifiers (other then increased enemy speed) effectively don’t matter until level cap runs and only for a tiny window before it’s just another grain if sand in the instakill pile.
Also yeah, capture targets are wackily inconsistent. Some can’t be hit by powers at all, some are CC immune, some proc status some don’t. Demolysts aren’t totally absent from the inconsistencies either (often retaining weird quirks of their base unit)
Going back to that first point about Disruption changing from announcement to live. Overguard kind of suffers from the same general DE pattern. A concept is presented on the dev stream, seems fine. But the version we finally get has been altered without any further embellishment on why (ie Ancient Healers doing Overguard instead of uh, healing. And also as a result weirdly doubling on the Disruptors aura and purpose).
Then down the line we get stuff being recycled and reused out of its mechanical context. Suddenly Overguard becomes more common and a difficulty pad instead of a unique mechanic. DuViri random loadouts get pulled out of their supporting architecture also as alleged difficulty (they aren’t because you can as easily roll Revenant and a Torid as Limbo and a Stug, there is no intent there). Some of that is budget and so on, but it’s seeming like stuff is thrown at a wall hoping it’ll stick then by deliberate intent.
I would give some special mention. That new Zariman enemies Murmur, and even the Amalgams and more recent Sentients also don’t pair well with the eximus treatment to begin with. Most already had their unique gimmicks and the doubly up just creates a lot of noise.
Steel Path (and the various modes using derivations of it) was in itself part of this conceptual drift.
A niche set of players wanted a level selection toggle so they could do their endurance stuff without sitting through hours of nothing. Fair enough, but the game structure didn’t support it so Steel path was born. With some token cosmetic bragging pieces and boosted, but no exclusive rewards. And DE said that was it and the game would never balance around it. That lasted roughly a year.
Then we started getting a lot of stuff like weapon arcanes, galvanized mods, archon shards, Incarnons, exclusive arcanes. Steel Path suddenly became mandatory to engage with if you wanted to experience the full breadth of the game’s systems. Some of these were placed in Steel Path, some were added to smooth the difficulty off of steel path. Nonetheless it escaped from this concession to a niche challenge to having tendrils sink all throughout the game.
And consequently that generated even more power creep (like the 8 billion available armour strips, which was helpful, but not necessary until dealing with SP armour) and other such things. Then DE cranked the enemies higher to compensate to that. Except CC exists outside of that equation and also (mostly) scaled to increased numbers as well, so they had to cut CC to further this new difficulty niche they escalated themselves into by putting effort into what was meant to be a throwaway novelty mode.
that part at the end 51:19 "warframe is like a second job" LMAO!!!!!
On the topic of CC and Survival Life Support drops - I think in some cases, some CC effects actually break enemies being able to drop life support - Zephyr's Tornadoes seem to struggle in particular, in my experience, and I consistently end up running out of life support even on steel path even with killing enemies quickly. Either I'm exceedingly unlucky, *only* when running her, or there's some kind of weird interaction.
I agree that 'CC is dead' is an overly reductive point and I broadly agree with basically all the points you've made in this video. Good stuff at that, this is the kind of content I like the most on this platform.
That said, I will say that it does kind of /feel/ like 'CC is dead' when it comes to playing some frames. An example is Rhino where I had a had a pretty decent time playing with basically just tanking with Iron Skin and using Stomp just to sort out when stuff got hairy on a Defense/similar. This worked great as the high strength slow gave you time to sort things out and justified the high cost. After the normalization of Stomp's CC against Eximus it feels very unimpactful since they were almost the only enemies that I actually cared about in those kind of situations.
There are exceptions to this (I really quite like Inaros' new kit and Sandstorm in particular as it's just a great team safety, grouping and status tool IMO) but too many abilities feel like they barely earn their keep even against an arguably 'fair' grouping of Eximus/NonEximus. I know this is a point you expounded on at length but I feel like most abilities are even worse off at the value proposition than the ratio suggests and that really drives the frustration and feeling of 'CC is dead.'
But I'm really just venting in circles to myself at this point, lol.
you have an extremely well written breakdown but seeing the fucking cuddle party of hollow vein eximus shitting out magnetic waves at 19:44 made me laugh for almost five minutes straight
EDA is pants on head stupid sometimes and that's amazing
Honestly i love the laat part of the video discussing the community. Because I feel like I have contributed to the emotionally fueled rants that cause such strifes in the here.
Granted im like a nobody so maybe its not that much at all, but I agree that we need to take a more level headed approach and understand that DE is so insanely forgiving and interactive with the community and we may always take that for granted. There will still be thibgds de may do in the future thatll piss us off but I never want to go as far as insulting or belittling them again.
It still blows my mind everytime I personally realize game mechanics like Overguard being in place to make you actually interact and fight against enemies with unique mechanics (which I always equated to things like a mini boss from other games) and then come onto social media and realize just how uncommon a realization that was. XD
WAIT! What if CC reduced enemy Overguard instead of just being immune to it?
I’d always had the idea of a Loki Rework not even being a full rework anyway.
Moreso a change to his passive.
My idea for Loki specifically was more so the status reduction thing in a similar vein to Hydroid’s new passive.
Any CC ability cast by Loki affects enemies at full potency even through Overguard.
This also tags an enemy with a mark that allows other frames to affect overguarded enemies with CC abilities at a diminished potency, maybe 1/4-1/2 the power/duration.
More so leaning into his role as the trickster.
This would also apply to any ability subsumed onto him which may be quite powerful, but Loki needs something.
Edit: one enemy everyone always seems to forget is the nullifier bubble thing that gives an enemy a nullifier bubble in the Orb Valis.
Ever have one of them put one onto the mobs that lunge at you at Mach 3 on the Orb Valis? Yea, basically an immediate ‘F your abilities’.
I totally forgot about Terra Shield Drones! Yeah, those things are dumb lol
I also think Loki needing a full on rework is definitely not urgently needed, mostly his passive and 4 deserve help, though I still think it would be good for him overall.
Along with the Healers, the Arbitration Drones could be included there - they give full ability immunity and invulnerability - would be nice if they let enemies be affected by CC while still rendering enemies immune to damage - just like the Liminus things in (E)DA
I've never played this game before and didn't even know what is was when I clicked on this video out of curiosity.
But I've got to hand it to you. It was a good video. You had me invested in a game I don't know anything about for almost a full hour, and managed to explain everything in a way that I actually understood what you were talking about. Well done sir. Well done. I wish you and the rest of the community luck in getting the CC and OG changes you want
Ok hear me out now. I think that damage needs to toned back a bit so we can get some more synergy between frames. I SAID IT! FLAME ME!!
nah I'm with you. I remember having to actually aim for headshot when I started off because your damage on a fresh account is so low that headshotting enemies was useful to conserve ammo and energy for moments where you were being overwhelmed or needed to clear some enemies ASAP on some mission modes. Enemies were also around the same power level as you so it felt great being able to out maneuver them and take them down with accurate shots and powers.
I really miss those days.
It's kinda funny that the ancient healer change you suggested is essentially to undo their rework
They used to just provide damage reduction, status redirection, and still made enemies immune to lots of CC effects. If memory serves, they didn't even actually heal enemies. I can see where you're coming from, and my solution may still not be the best one, but Healers have always been a weird enemy that aren't intuitive at a glance.
@@CoolKid369 if memory seves, it was something along the lines of damaging the ancient would heal nearby enemies for a portion, and damaging the enemies would heal the ancient. I don't remember the old ancients giving cc immunity, but then, like you said, there is a lot of stuff ancients do that they just don't tell you. Like, how many people do you think know that ancient disruptors give all nearby enemies the capacity to sap energy
Small note about arbi/defense:
While most players wont notice a big difference between 5 waves or 5 min, arbi players most certainly will. Defense is (next to interception) THE META game mode in arbis atm, bc you can finish a wave in 20-30s with a coordinated group. Your proposed change would change it up quite a bit but tbh, it would be quite a buff. Constant spawning and way less downtime is ideal for an arbi mission and would increase vitus/minute by a significant amount.
Also small venting about the new demo mechs: WHY CAN YOU NOT BE STRIPPED REEEEEEEEEE, also your inconsistent DR is poop, I 1hko in solo and need 5-10s if im in a 4man... damage sponge go brrr ig
Well this sure had a…. Magnetic aging
18:02 it was even worse in a full squad because of the increased enemy spawns. I'm not over exaggerating when I say that you could not see ANYTHING on your screen because it was full of particle effects vomit. I had to resort to using the enemy health bars for aiming my weapons and abilities. And killing the Eximus units was useless because they were all back up in a few seconds.
Yeah, solo was bad enough, but full squads were actually nauseating. I mostly play Duviri solo but the few times I didn't it was stomach turning lol
the more skitzo cool kid gets, the more entertaining the rant gets
The problem with ancients is if you add the healing mechanics to them while also making them cc able is just to group and kit bash them. While also replacing healer eximus units. my idea i could think of would to make them like arbitation drones. That being like the enemies in the radius are immue to their health taking damage. And the ancient recives scaled% overguard to it ancient from all allies in the radius. With any damage done to both ancients or enemies is added like a reversed rhino's iron skin and when the ancient dies all enemies in the radius are hit with all of it at once, includeing the ancient once overgaurd has been depleted.
Not expecting a James Somerton dig in a Warframe video. Beautiful!
(preemptive "sorry for bad english")
So i thought about this for a bit and came up with this sort of overguard "rework" and want to hear what you guys think about it.
Overguard is still fully immune against CC HOWEVER:
1. Overguard can be removed with 1 hit from ANY weapon or operator (damage from abilities CANNOT remove overguard in any way, exalted/pseudo exalted weapons included)
2. After overguard is removed affected enemy redirects his agro to the player that removed said overguard (if they don't already) and becomes FULLY INVULNERABLE to damage (but not CC since he no longer has overguard) for 2.5s (time subject to change, took time from max shieldgate as base)
3. This invulnerability can be INSTANTLY DISABLED with:
-operator damage (option for damage players)
--if removed this way affected enemy will be briefly staggered (something similar to impact proc or maybe even make it do one) to give time to get back into warframe
-ANY CC, even from weapons (except cold/impact procs maybe)
-breaking noxs helmet (exception for this guy to keep his unique mechanic in place)
What (i think) this means for:
-damage players: instead of being just a tougher bullet sponge overguarded enemies become an "OH SHIT" moment that needs to be dealt accordingly (with operator)
-CC players: you can now deal with overguarded enemies more easily but still need to at least locate them and click on them, if you ignore them you still get clapped and that's on you
Potential problems (that i thought of as of writing this comment):
-pre war within players will get spooked by eximus units way more than usual
9:20 My only complaint with this comment, and I only have it because I love Limbo, is that some CC heavy frames, Like Limbo, are also less durable. I have always found Limbo a very flimsy frame, but this was saved by the fact that I could, freeze the world and regain my shields. Now that I have a enemy type that not only dishes out a large amount of damage, but also denies me that survivablitly...
As someone who has mainned Limbo since 2017, I agree with your complaints about the current state of CC and overguard. I do dislike the new Deep Archimedean as a lot of the risk variables just seem, hard to be hard, they don't really add anything unique or fun gameplay wise. I think the risk variables OR the limited loadouts would have worked better, as you can't even pick frames or weapons to work with your personally modifiers, or the risk variables. My first deep Archimedean I got Octavia or Oberon as the two frames I owned, alongside -75% ability duration which complete kills Octavia's whole kit. I still took here, I just didn't take max points that week.
And something to take note of is that I don't really mind overguard in general gameplay. Because overguard does not stop units from entering the rift. And once they're in the rift, if stasis is active, they can't use ranged attacks besides any eximus auras. And these few exceptions actually helps Limbo's gameplay in my opinion. It would be boring (for me personally) to sit in a bubble, cast stasis and then never have to worry about an enemy again. The use of things like overguard makes it much more engaging as a player to be forced to interact with some units, while still scratching the power fantasy itch that is stopping an entire room and gunning down helpless victims. Of course, the deep Archimedean and healers basically disable his kit which is a little annoying, but I don't think every frame has to be viable for every mission. Which is why I don't mind the CC immunity on Demolishers because disruption just doesn't feel like a CC type game mode and I personally think it's okay if not every frame works all the time. Perhaps ideally they could, but there are far larger offended that I'd rather be fixed before things like Disruption and ESO. Defense changes would be nice however due to inconsistencies even when using damage/nuke frames.
On the contrary, the things that I really do mind are the nullifiers. Especially because of endless ramping during fissures like excavation. I basically can't use Limbo against Corpus or Corrupted. I would be fine if the nullifier bubble would make the nullifier and all units inside the bubble immune to stasis without breaking cataclysm. This has always been annoying to me because it makes it hard to bring any true defensive frame (Frames like Limbo, Frost, Gara, or Khora) to excavation fissures because all it takes is a single nullifier spawning too close to the excavator and boom, the barrier is gone and the high level endless enemies insta break the excavator.
And as an important footnote note for Limbo: Not sure if it's just an ignored bug or a stupid game design, but some defense type objectives are immune to the rift and can be shot by enemies from outside the rift. The main offenders being things like the coildrive defense during Orb Vallis bounties, as well as thermia canisters during the thermia fractures event. Which makes the strongest part of Limbo's kit completely useless for something he's normally very good at, timed defense.
nullifiers are the bane of my limbo's existance :(
i really like your idea of a rework for them
y'know i can usually deal with all of that, but with the archimedea i just stopped caring after the first 2 weeks. i just hate being locked into a playstyle that i probably don't enjoy with the only reason for any difficulty being that i got a doodoo roll and am now dead weight to my team even if i have all the options built but they just suck. it's not too hard, it's just annoying beyond a point of it being reasonable for me to care to get the rewards.
Yeah I'm so sick and tired of the wannabe roguelike elements DE is forcing us to be good with.
Yes ! Absolutely yes to all of this ! I thought I was subscribed before, was not, fixed that mistake, what a great video I just watched thank you for making it :DD
In the past, I’ve also suggested the idea of making Overguard immune to AOE/Ability damage, but a large amount of damage reduction on Overguard is probably a better idea.
Additionally, the real reason Eximi are immune to CC is because Pablo wanted the players to see the fresh new ability animations lol
Pablo should never have been let near the update fuck your animations if i care about them il look in the simulation space the whole Eximus rework hell 90 fucking % of AOZ was a mistake and should have been scrapped it was bad buggy and boring for anyone not in the 'ultimate super end game' te ONLY change they made that i agreed with that wasnt a glitch filled fuck up was giving Operators shields and that needed to be fought for as a bandaid over the gaping wound of the void static or whatever its called that will kill your frame in 4 Op deaths and the fact we were all but expected to use the kid to deal with overgag
I feel like overguard feeling like 99.9% of the ehp also defeats its purpose, maybe something like the first enemy hit by a shot takes a lot (and mean like 100x if not more) more overguard damage. (Also solving the chaining weapon problem since they are often considered “single target”)
As a Limbo main.
*_FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, PLEASE HELP ME. I HAVE TO RESORT TO SUBSUMING ABILITIES IN ORDER TO NOT INSTANTLY DIE FROM A LEVEL 200 TOXIC EXIMUS THAT HAPPENED TO EXIST IN MY AREA CODE._*
Eximus Units are my favorite enemy to fight as they are big sources of Affinity.
I been playing as long as you have and I want to say I normally don’t watch long videos like this but your points your topics and your criticisms were on point! I appreciate your video its layout and comprehension of the topic at hand. I thumps up your video for this and I might not subscribe as of yet since this is my first video I have seen of yours over the many years I have watched Warframe videos. I am right there with you DE please take any of this video’s criticism and please try to implement it. I truly believe he is on to something here.
Thank you for observing my comment coolkid
I hope overguard doesn't go the way of the champions of D2 aka champions = difficulty
I'm super late to this video but still wanted to chime in and say that this is super well done. We have a problem, context, impact, and proposed solutions. All neat wrapped up with a bow. Good stuff.
Only retort from me is on the Operator solution to Overguard, since as it stands now, new players face Eximus units long before accessing their Operator. That whole situation would become its own problem needing its own solution if Operator became the intended way to combat enemies players encounter long before Second Dream.
P.S. I really appreciate the Metroid Prime bgm throughout. Awesome choices.
Honestly it seems like Digital Extremes need to make game modes designed around dishing out CC effects instead of killing in order to have any understanding of how the abilities function.
If I'm not totally drowned out I had a terrible idea of my own while watching this. Put on your big boy pants: let's make Overguard work like baby mode mesmer skin.
1) Overguard health is much lower than live but has very short invincibility gates. I'm thinking four separate 0.2 second gates. They're visually denoted by marks in its health bar.
2) When a gate is triggered, the enemy is briefly staggered like an Impact proc.
3) When the last gate is triggered, the unit immediately uses its special ability if it hasn't been able to yet.
4) Gate checks happen AFTER damage takes place, up to the remaining health of the Overguard bar. This means you can 1-shot the Overguard if it's a single damage instance, which will immediately trigger its special ability and leave it vulnerable but not kill it.
5) Whenever an eximus with overguard becomes the target of a CC ability a single gate is removed and it becomes briefly staggered the same way it would be had it been removed by damage, but it does not trigger the 0.2 second invulnerability period that removal via damage would trigger.
6) Persistent CC auras such as snow globe can only remove 1 gate from each eximus every 6 seconds at a fixed rate to make it technically valid but prevent passive removal even in a full squad of AoE CC (no one is going to wait 24 seconds to remove all 4 gates instead of damaging it).
Adding all this together, Eximus units CAN be very slightly CC'd by CC abilities, where all CC abilities function like a single Impact proc through gate removal triggers. Damage can still remove OG in a single hit if it's high enough, but rapid-fire high damage has to contend with damage gates. If anyone in ANY scenario was able to remove the entirety of a unit's overguard before it used an ability, it gets another chance to use it when the last gate is triggered, so it ALWAYS gets at least a single use. AoE CC abilities are generally about as effective as a single cast of any other CC abilities on overguarded units that enter the area.
To add to this, non-Eximus/Special units that would receive Overguard instead receive a similar thing called Warding. Warding is a special state where a normal health bar gets the CC-resistance and damage gate of an Overguard unit without additional health. Instead marks are added to the normal health bar to show when the next gate would trigger. Warding can have a number of gates per the effect source instead of a flat 4. So for example, ancient healers could add 1 warding gate to allies, preventing one shots and/or providing one instance of CC resistance before being removed.
CC abilities skipping the damage immunity of gate removal creates this unique effect where in some cases, to max damage against gate-affected units you need explicitly a non-damaging ability. I think all this actually achieves a somewhat happy medium, holy shit
What is a "CC ability" cause for example gyres CC and only form of survivability is CCing theough constant electric procs around her.
Honestly this a lot of how i have felt lately, like every build that is endgame viable (deep arcamedia, netracells, really anything in the labs right now) is just the same room nuke or stupid tanky. like i enjoy nuke builds as much as anyone else but i miss the slower cc based builds that used to exist and now are just unplayable in meaningful content.
I'd like to build on the timer drain mechanic you offered for SO/ESO. I was thinking each enemy contributes individually to efficiency decay, and when they are CC'ed, this decay will be largely slowed but not completely stopped, so around a 40-50% slower rate of efficiency drain. You still have to kill enemies to gain that efficiency again, but the decay isn't as strong as it usually would be resulting in a healthy mix of damaging frames and CC frames being viable for the gamemode.
As someone who's played for almost as much time as yourself (My time's at like 7k hours at this point) I appreciate that you didn't just say, "Yep. These are a problem. IDK what to do, fix it please!" The solutions you came up with, particularly the one for the Healers, are good, and here's hoping that DE finds it in their hearts to agree to at least some of the changes!
Honestly Operator mode just sucks mass ass. Having to rely on specific schools to patch holes in a kit like energy regen and combo decay (that should both be baseline) and having some schools be useless is just shitty design. They should just integrate more enemies that are weak to operators, make operators more fluid to play and then add actual weapons instead of the amps to make playing as operator and warframe back and forth a fluid and fun process.
I agree Operators deserve more work, I don't think that buffs from schools are necessarily just Band-Aids, but more incentive to play them and more options when actually doing so would both be nice.
@@CoolKid369 i agree the new schools arent bandaids back in the first weeks of AOZ they didnt even rate that good ive said it once twice and a thousand more times there was NOTHING worth saving from AOZ other then adding shields to Operator it all should have been scrapped and redone
DE started going wrong when they started putting Dispel on anything but the Stalker.
Honestly when they anounced the eximus rework i was expecting a good rework that give eximus some personality that made them a threat like other horde shooters do like vermintide 2 or l4d2 where if you let them alive they destroy you but they can easily die if you spot them ahead + the whole anounce the enemy before it shows up and sounds of the enemy itself
I even tough overguard at first only was made to make cc and dmg abilties not been ablee to instakill eximus but your weapons biapased the overguard completely
Instead we got this and to be frank it killed my love for the game completely,making me stay on vermintide 2 for like 2 years i ocasinally comeback for new content but i don stay for too long ,Warframe nowdays dificulty seems so cheap its just more health more armor more overguard rather than making the foes you are facing interesting
I think we have gotten some enemies that are fun and interesting, lots of Murmur enemies have cool effects and targetable weak spots for example, but I agree that much of the difficulty feels like just requiring more bullets and reducing options.
I read the thumbnail as "He" and thought you were just bullying that enemy
Changing OverGuard to only be damaged while enemies are CC'd could be a good away to curb their power. Of course, fully CCing enemies with OG prevents enemies from using abilities, so reducing the CC effects could be an answer to the problem.
I really liked the focus of this video, DE tends to forget CC it's a type of playstile and some of us like it more than nuking, also i liked your ideas for CC getting back up to meta and keep up with the nuking type of playstile
This video is literally the meme of “ppl who don’t know, ppl who know”