Would a MODERN Indycar handle the Monza Oval?
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- Опубліковано 9 гру 2022
- It's a question quite literally nobody has asked, so here we are.
Recently I did a dive into the old Monza Oval and the races that were held there. But then I discovered that the people that own the circuit want to bring racing back to the oval, and that raises the question: What exactly?
So using the power of simulation, here is a modern Indycar at the Monza oval.
Enjoy! And remember to like and subscribe for more!
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I am not too surprised at the Indycar's ability to handle the Monza banking. The Iowa oval that is on the Indycar calendar has its fair share of bumps and many of the street courses are bumpy enough to cause an F1 paddock-wide protest.
They actually raced on a street circuit with a railroad crossing through a straight. They were getting completely airborne over that thing. I think they did have a few half shaft or gearbox failures but not very many.
@@wingracer1614 Baltimore, right?
@@mrterp04 either there or San Jose where Champ Car raced for a couple years in the mid 2000s.
@@mrterp04 You're right. The video of that is probably the craziest section of track in the history of Indycar. It looks violent enough to affect your vision. If you take it wrong, the front wheels get 2' in the air. Watch "Pagenaud's Baltimore Jump HD"
@@wingracer1614 That was Baltimore. Only ran it a couple of times.
LOVE this! I've become addicted to watching old IndyCar/CART series seasons of the 80's-early 90's, partly out of nostalgia I suppose from my youth but also because the racing, cars, and drivers we're absolutely crazy good and entertaining. The high-speed bumps made me think of these races back in the day, as some of the oval circuits (Phoenix, Michigan prior to repaving, Pocono, Nazareth, Milwaukee) had demented levels of bumps that they would absolutely fly over in, and in the 80's in max ground effect cars as well. Modern era F1 drivers and the 'porpoising' they complain about would have been laughed at by these guys. The street courses? Bone-jarring, tooth-filling-loosening half-shaft-breaking, wrist-snapping bumpfests that they absolutely whipped those amazing Cosworth and Ilgor/Chevy powered Lola's and March's through with frightening bravery and skill. A couple UA-camrs have collected all of the season's races from then and I can't recommend more highly if looking for some of the most entertaining, varied, and mentally frightening (the ovals) auto racing of all time.
Yesterday Nico Rosberg made a video called "This is How a Banked Turn Feels!" from these banked turns at Monza in a little minivan. It scared him.
I wonder what would have happened if you'd run the oval counterclockwise? The car's natural tendency to turn left would mean you're not fighting it and scrubbing off as much speed, it seems to me. I didn't realize how bumpy Monza is, and the speed you got on it is amazing
that was what I was thinking. As someone who doesn't do sim racing - is it actually possible to do a U turn and just run the other way round the track? would the software allow that?
@@NonFlyiingDutchman yes but it wouldn't time it, unless you made a whole new track version going the opposite way
@@DanLMH okay, thanks. Would that mean starting from scratch? or could you use the clockwise version as a starting point? either way I guess it wouldn't really be worth the effort
The set to turn left is to help the driver, if they ran clockwise they’d set it up to turn right
This is actually super fun in an indycar, in iracing you can actually set the car up correctly for the clockwise track if need be. Also NASCAR is as fun if not more so. 😃
In the qualifying set up (which I believe allows for extra boost) IndyCars hit over 240 at Indy. Scott Dixon AVERAGED over 234 mph over 4 laps in his pole run last year. The record for a single lap during qualifying is 237.498 by Arie Luyendyk in 1996.
Do you'll know that my own country, Australia, has it's own oval? Well we do, and it is called the Thunderdome. It is located at the Colder Park Raceway. It would be great if Aidan Millward do this at the Thunderdome. Not just for Indy, but also for F1, NASCAR, AND for Supercar.
"last seen in F1 in 1961"
1963 as a matter of fact. They wanted to race the full layout that year, but dropped the idea after friday following several suspension problems and went on the Grand Prix circuit for saturday and sunday.
I find the combined Monza circuit fascinating. Having a section that was used twice in the same lap must have been pretty unique.
Now I’m going to watch “Gran Prix” on dvd. It’s a epic movie
Rfactor has a modern interpretation of the oval and combined layout in the base game and it's pretty nice
I just wish you could run the oval in the proper direction for stock cars.
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 On iRacing you can BUT given the state of the physics it cant be trusted....
@@bunkermonkey_uk And cost. I've barely got 'rFactor with a gamepad' money. 😅
im pretty sure the oval would need a complete overhaul from the ground up. not sure how others would feel about removing the original to make a new one, but I would be fine with it as long as it matched all of the original ovals specifications regarding angle, width, etc. would also love to see the full track used again, oval + circuit, and of all of the tracks to have both layouts its definately the most possible given how theres no figure of 8, literally just a weird "2 half straight", no crossover required (at least if I understand the layout properly).
having indycar at monza would also be a step towards making indy a global sport instead of a national one. get fuji-speedways oval back, or at least the insane banked corner that was repurposed and used in the circuit for a while, if the monza oval revival is a success, maybe there will finally be able to be a push for a certain banked british tracks revival, Avus could be brought back while also still being used as a motorway when its not race season, they just need to build the bankings and then make the road go around them then back on to the straights, would be silly but they could. theres that spannish banked circuit that was built but only raced once on, cmon ;-;
The first banking of the oval bridges over the normal circuit on the straight between the lesmos and the last chicane.
Here's the thing: Push to pass is only used on road/street courses. They don't use it on any of the ovals.
So while it adds speed, Indycar does not use P2P on ovals. Push to pass is only used on road and street courses.
Some things here...
The reason the oval is so bumpy in the turns is how it is/was constructed. The turns are essentially individual pieces of concrete supported by a steel structure underneath. If it was to be reconstructed the turns would probably be totally redone and the "bracing" of the turn would probably be dirt instead of structural steel. This would not only smooth out the surface because it could be asphalted ( or concrete) but would allow for progressive banking ( even parabolic progressive banking ). The armco on top of the turns would have to go bye bye and be replaced with concrete and a SAFER barrier ( just like Indianapolis, Michigan, Homestead ,etc)...
If that were done, it would be easy to see how a modern Indy car race could be run there. There is another issue, however...The width of the surface is VVVEEEERRRRRYYYY narrow. The passing would have to be done at the end of the straights. It's not really a problem because since the advent of the warm up lanes at Indy, very little passing is done in the turns anymore. It's usually done at the end of the straights entering turns 1 and 3.
This was an interesting simulation.
While the current crop of Indy Cars could handle the Monza oval, an aspect to consider: Could the drivers handle the bodily physical stresses from that the track's banking? Going at 200+ mph with the steep banking could have a similar scenario as what the CART sanctioned Indy Cars drivers experienced at the Texas Motor Speedway in the Spring of 2001. In the practice sessions leading up to that race, the high speeds on that track's banking had drivers complaining of dizziness and blurred vision after several laps at speed on the TMS oval. Because of the health/safety concerns for the drivers, the 2001 race at TMS was canceled.
Back then, the turbocharged CART configured Indy Cars were faster than the naturally aspirated IRL cars that ran at the same track in earlier race years. That bit of additional speed of the turbo CART racers was a tipping point for the CART drivers to experience physical issues, of dizziness and blurred vision, resulting from the 'G forces' of the track's banking, that the IRL drivers didn't have.
So, while the current Indy Cars could be up to handling the rigors of the Monza banking; could the the drivers be physically up to the challenge without experiencing health issues?
The construction of the oval is it's biggest drawback. Parts of it are built on "stilts", making it much more susceptible to the elements, creating bumps. Concrete is also notorious for becoming rough and uneven over time, part of what make Dover in the US such a challenge. To make a suitable oval would require the old one to be completely replaced (reduced banking, wider, new pavement, etc.) and that should never happen. The oval as it stands is a monument to what was and that is what it should stay.
Nice idea. I think it'd be nice with NASCAR also
Step 1: Install concrete walls and SAFER barriers.
2. Bring NASCARs to Italy.
3. Watch the carnage unfold.
Love to see the combined circuit
This was a great video to enjoy my morning coffee to
Resurfaced and smoothed out and Indy cars would probably end up with the debacle they tried at Texas Motor Speedway. 230 mph plus top speeds and drivers blacking out from the g forces.
Texas has since the last modifications to the track not been good for any racing except the NASCAR Modified series using the short track/micro track setup and the non NASCAR Super Modified series using the dirt setups with road tires.
It would not be the same problem as Texas. At Indianapolis the cars go up to 240mph. The problem at Texas was the cars were turning at high speed almost continuously and had no straight to rest.
Texas has a turn radius of 750 feet. Monza has a turn radius of 1144 feet. They'd have to go faster than 300mph to replicate the same g-forces.
To mustang6172 - Thanks for the maths. I wasn't considering the differences in turn radius, just the degree of banking, and I didn't consider how much straight there is at Monza.
@@glennthompson9133 the radius is everything....that is where the G Forces at Texas were higher coupled with the short straights. Monza has a lot bigger radii and the long straights. I suspect it would be pretty much a nil factor physiologically
awesome video
Doing laps on that by yourself in an Indy car is one thing--a frightening thing--but trying to race other cars on that bumpy and narrow banking would be horrifying.
Most similar comparison to this, I think, would be the one and only time IndyCars raced at Daytona. That was in 1959, and there was a reason they never came back. Look up the name George Amick. IndyCars could never race here, especially if they have Armco barriers. An IndyCar going into one of those at 230+ MPH would make Gordon Smiley's crash look tame. There'd be body parts all over the track. Amick's fatal crash took out about 50 feet of the original Daytona barrier, which was similar was Armco but with wooden fence posts, and I believe he was only going about 140 in a front engine roadster, which sat hgigher off the ground, so his car flipped and he was mangled, but not dismembered. I think the only modern race car that could reasonably safely run on this oval would be a NASCAR Cup car.
I think IF indycar ever did this, the teams could probably set the cars up to run the wrong way. Or likewise they could probably run the correct direction.
Of course the track would need some serious SAFER barriers and a real pig lane. Plus some tree removal and massive catch fences. Biggest thing with Monza and it’s oval is it doesn’t have the same appeal of most Americans ovals where you can see the bulk of the track at once
A Champ car from 1999, probably hit 250mph with little effort!
I loved this video! You are brave to try that with a DD wheel. I have chosen not to upgrade to DD after watching a couple of YT Sim guys reporting on their injuries. I must remember that I started Sim Racing as a way to quell the urge to get beck into a real race car at my "advanced age", specifically because I don't want to get hurt! So, on to the concept: well for a start, to make this idea viable, they will need to install SAFR barriers around to top of the banking. I wonder if that is feasible?
Leave the set up… go out and turn around 🎵…. I don’t think the timer will work… but turn around and run it Lefty… just to see the speeds in and out
Why couldn't you have drove the opposite way around the track? Your times would have been much faster with the car going in the proper direction for its oval setup. Interesting stuff! IndyCar content is a fun addition to your channel for something different.
It's _way_ too narrow to have 33 cars racing all together here at the moment, and the banking, while extremely progressive, is extremely steep. I mean...Indy doesn't race at Daytona for the sheer speed they'd be achieving, and that's about twice as wide as Monza's banking. You can barely go two wide here, and the end result would be like the tense, single-groove races they've had at Texas since they put down the PJ1...but with more danger. They'd probably want to make the banking constant, less steep, and about twice as wide.
...and also they'd race the other direction. In this case, I would've attempted to raise the left rear to counteract the lack of adjustability of camber, though. good ol' cross-weighting.
Good video dude, note, iRacing lets you run the oval left hand turning layout, timed.
If the Monza Oval can't be made safe enough make it a bike track and do outdoor Track style racing for bicyclists. Would be cool to see it used for this at least. Another that might do well here is NASCAR Modifed cars, much slower and would be a challenge for the low slung open wheel cars as they have been since the first sort of rules for the cars in the early 1980's.
The problem with the Modifieds is that those teams are almost uniformly low-budget operations, and I don't know how they'd pay to get across the Atlantic.
@@benjaminbrockway5998 Yes I get that, but Some kind of International Modified series could work and even be a feeder for F1.
Is there a stagger option on your set up?
Also, I wonder with the parabolic nature of the banking if Indycar would encounter a CART Texas ‘01 scenario?
Coo to see your test runs though. Thanks for sharing!
Indycars never fail to amaze me
In tracks folders find SCN file & open with notepad.
Swap timing cards 'sector1' & 'sector2' should ensure timing will work in reverse.
Will have to turn off 'rules' in game to stop annoying warnings.
Worked in rF1 so guessing it should work in rF2.
Been a while since I last simmed, I just whittle tracks out of triangles these days.
Modern cars aroud ovals- any chance of doing Autódromo de Sitges-Terramar?
Now THERE is a terrifying oval, still there(just) & nearly as old as Brooklands... ;)
Thanks again for an interesting classic revisit
Indy cars at a European track reminds of Leon Duray. Born George Stuart, he had to legally change his name to avoid jail time when he went to Louisiana. Known as the Black Devil, he would wear all black. Which was crazy considering this was Indiana in the summer time, and everyone around him wore white. He would eventually take his front wheel drive indy car across a tour of europe. Setting lap records as he went. Of course in the Millers, if you wanted to downshift and brake at the same time. You had to take both hands off the steering wheel. Eventually he sold his tricked out Miller to Bugatti. There is much more the Leon Duray, and there's a lot there. However John Ficarra did a video about him that's pretty good
It would be cool seeing Indycars at the Monza oval but i would imagane that banking being as high as it is and the resultant insane avrage speed would render it unsafe, the same kind of reasons why they dont race at Daytona
Other than going the wrong way, not bad. I've done trucks going the correct way on iRacing and it's insane. Also reminds me of Landon Cassill's Monza Madness. Cup cars!
Try NASCAR just for fun. That would be the most realistic vehicle should a race car actually run here again.
I don't have rFactor, but is there a road course set up available? It might get you closer, at least to neutral.
Just looking at the width of the track, passing would be a problem in qualifying and races, and accidents would result, probably multiple car pileups as there would be nowhere for crashing cars to run off, except into other cars or trees. If the width was increased by at least 50%, including in the oval, then racing might be possible.
Maybe a crazy idea, but a F1 & Indxcar Demo race at a new Monza oval and street combined circuit would be amazing, have some of the top F1 teams run their 2021 cars and some of the top Indy teams run the short oval DW12. The f1 cars would be much faster on the circuit but would have to slow for the oval where the indycars could gain back time
Now you should do a NASCAR race around it or even do an f1 car around indy.
the loss of speed seems to be primarily due to bottoming out, needs harder springs and maybe even more tire pressure
Push2Pass isnt used on ovals
and the biggest thing is the oval would need to be entirely repaved for it to be usable
however a fresh asphalt surface would be an absolute tire shredder
P2P was used years ago on ovals. Not anymore to obvious reasons. I.e. keeping speeds down and safe. But it was wild when they did have it.
@@jeremythurman5261It was used during the Honda V8 but only gave you some extra RPM instead of 50-60 HP.
Nice to see it in the video renders - would not like to see it happen for real. The required safety improvements to the track would ruin its historic character.
Aside from the bumps, the drivers were getting dizzy on the high banks of Texas. Can you measure G forces?
Sounded like Monsters Inc. in the intro.
Could you run the race in the opposite direction so the turns would be toward the left?
What kind of a cockpit do you have setup for yourself.
Can't say I'm surprised with the results (Sans the fact that you couldn't quite reverse engineer the setup to work the other way around). While its cool that there is interest to bring back the oval and perhaps the possibility of it is not a far stretch, this falls into the same sort of awkward territory of questioning as resurfacing Sebring or bringing F1 to Watkins Glen: Would you really be willing to throw away the characteristics that effectively made those tracks then just to make an impulsive wish happen now? Once you do, there is no reset button.(or rewind feature like you'd get in Forza or a Codemasters game), what's done cannot be undone.
I agree that the bump on the strightaway is scary. I think that IndyCar could run there, but I have some observations. First, someone would have to prevail upon the powers that be to grind the track surface and install SAFER barriers; we do not want anyone reprising Count von Trips. Second, only run 22 cars in rows of two. Third, any race might have to be run counterclockwise, as setting the cars up to run clockwise might be too costly. Nevertheless, it would be a fun race to watch.
I think the next logical course of action is, could Indycar do the Opel Rennbahn.
I'd like to see you do f1 @ Talladega
main issue i see is the track is way too narrow for those kinds of speeds, even if they were mad enough to try it it would be a procession unless they redo the whole banking again
Oval race(s) in F1 could be fun, but IMO it would require pretty different aero package to the track one to make it work, otherwise it would be a drag (literally) - so no much chance with cost cap.
What they could do instead is to have couple of races on short fast layouts, with 40-50 sec per lap - i.e. sth similar to Sakhir GP in 2020 - that one worked pretty well :)
I'd love to see one oval race a year in f1 but I don't think the cars could it take it they would have to have a different engine and gear box to withstand the higher rpms continuously which would require a complete overhaul of the component rules in f1 or make it the exception which would still be a cluster and cost the teams a ton of money just for a novelty race
Jake over on GPLaps hasn't done one of his "what if" videos in quite a while. I bet you and he could cook up some workable scenarios....
Got something Special for you 🎁 TM!
I was hoping to see how Indy cars would do on the combined course..The series does, afterall, include both ovals,and road courses
Got something Special for you 🎁 TM!
IndyCar regulations prohibit the use of Push to Pass on ovals.
Honestly I'd love to see a nascar stock car run on these in rfactor or whatever. I've run the cup cars at Monza in iracing on the oval. It's Daytona to a t. But I'd love to see it in real life and I think they have the best chance of ever seeing time on the oval
Landon Cassill set up a full race on the Monza oval on Easter Sunday in 2020, and NASCAR has the full race on their channel.
Shoulda drove the track backwards with a left handed setup
Monza could easily re do the oval but they would need NASCAR's help (or Speedway Motorsports). NASCAR and SMI are the only ones with that much banking experience. You definitely want asphalt. Plus they could also build new grandstands in case you wanted to fit another 50K or so fans into Monza.
is the oval car, or the "indy 500" build. that build is massively fast. I tried the oval car alone... it was interesting...
I haven't watched the video but I can tell you if the simulation is accurate yes they will be able to. They're quite literally designed to do exactly what you're testing
Bicycles maybe
I think indie is trying to reduced the level of banking at circuits due to drivers passing out... but otherwise, it looks like it could work
But they don't use Push-to-pass on Ovals IIRC, do they ?
Correct, they do not.
Man your wrists must be barking at you today
Why didn't you just go around anticlockwise?
This isn't the 1950s. I think the Indycar's could do much better with the full circuit. The aero/suspension compromises would lower top speeds, but make the cars much easier to handle. It also reduces the amount of sustained time the drivers spend on the oval part of the circuit.
...can't go round counterclockwise...?
Would have thought you go the other way ie anti-clockwise cos that's where they go in America.
Push to pass isn’t a thing on oval tracks. Still cool though
Got something Special for you 🎁 TM!
Hey
I am thinking IndyCar there is just not happening. It would be like Daytona except with bumps and considering how the banking was constructed, those bumps are not coming out. NASCAR might be an idea for you need the Safer barrier regardless...and that is not cheap.
Let the banking be a reminder of what used to be......to make it raceable for NASCAR alone would be hideously expensive and if We Canadians can't get them to come up here , how in the hell will the Italians get them there?
227 isnt that bad.
Probably not, too aerodynamic
He needs to take the Earnhardt line and use the guard rail as an air cushion.
Wrc cars drive on the oval in 2021.
I don't they could if the cars were set up properly. If the bumps didn't get them, the speeds would probably be too high, like Texas many, many years ago.
The car would. The pilot wouldnt
calling it turn 1 and 2 instead of 1&2 and 3&4 was very off putting lmao
You're going the WRONG WAY!
John Candy: How do they know where we're going?
Steve Martin: Yeah... and try running a bit lower on exit of Turns 2 and 4
Yeah this was not the sim to do it on. The car is not realistic at all, and the oval isn't even correct (it's backwards). On iracing you would've had a much more accurate representation of what indycar would be like
This is rather pointless without traffic.
Sim content is not for everyone…
Then don’t watch it?
Why would anyone run anything but demo equipt.
On this horrible surface ?
Not worthy of a skateboard park
It’s a game, that’s disappointing ☹️.
I would think NASCAR racing would be more appropriate to the Monza oval.