I Spent 9 hours in LFR so you don't
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- Опубліковано 19 жов 2024
- So in I went to just check what it was like and found the horror as described. But is there anything we can do to improve your odds.
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Gear: shop.spreadshi...
Twitter: @Preachgaming
Live Stream - twitch.tv/preachlfw
The Good Book - / preachgaming
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They should just crank down the difficulty, fill the open spots with npc after 5min qeue, and call it story mode.
@Daggernath
Lol, now it actually sounds cool xD
That could actually be the best solution I’ve heard so far
I don't know if you meant it as a joke, but it's not even a bad idea. Some people just want the story; that's fine. Obviously keep the ilvl rewards for the actual difficulty tiers, but a 'story' mode for the many people who have no interest in raiding for the sake of raiding would be interesting. It allows them to actually play out important content and conclude expansions. Plenty of people don't raid because it's too difficult or too toxic and then just miss out on a bunch of lore.
This is actually a very good idea
Honestly that sounds like a pretty good idea..
Honestly they need to turn LFR into full "tutorial" mode. They've already experimented with the concept with class trials. Imagine giant arrows over what to DPS, a WeakAura like overlay to move out of harmful effects, etc. Provide them even a sliver of a chance to learn something.
I think you are on to something. They could come up with ways to telegraph spells and abilities. This could also work for class abilities, especially those with a cast time. Have a specific kind of animation, something more easily recognizable than current character animations.
Amanda....
Are you suggesting that blizzard DO SOMETHING GOOD FOR THE PLAYERS?
I’ma gonna have to ask you to tone down that sense of wanting to help and buy another store mount...
You know, for the small indie company.
Great idea, and no loot for LFR.
too much work for them i guess
they couldnt even finish mythic nzoth in time
@@drjo8376 no loot from mythic make it super challenge mode only.
I have an alternative idea for you: What if LFR was just about learning the mechanics without having to "herd the sheep?" Make LFR a solo mode like the mage tower, where you're just with a limited crew of predetermined bots, and it's all about learning the mechanics yourself. Then you don't have to bribe better players with rewards that shouldn't be in LFR. And it lets players who just want to finish the quest do it at a reasonable time. In addition, it lets nervous players learn the mechanics, and maybe feel confident enough to try it out on the harder difficulties.
This sounds like a great approach! Perhaps then call it LTR or something then.
Stays away from the plague in real life.
Deliberately dives head first into pestilence ingame so you don't have to.
What a legend!
@Johnny Guillotine I'm an autistic adult.
The quarantine measures have actually caused me to have to interact with other human beings more often than I did before the corona crisis.
Thanks, you made me smile for the day (no sarcasm)
@Johnny Guillotine thing is... Emma is quarantined with Mike and the kids, she has it.
Play Unholy DK, become the plague!
I do LFR because I can't raid, and wait times don't matter, just queue up when I log on, and then go do dailies.... don't hang around waiting! I kinda like the bosses who provide a challenge. No-one learns anything with tank and spank bosses. The worst boss by far for me was Uunat, dear god that was a trial. Went in again with a really over-geared group who still didn't know what to do and found myself having to organise them to just hit the right thing at the right time and get it through their heads that the 'undying' mobs literally wouldn't die, no matter how much you nuked them. N'Zoth, first kill for me had a warlock who really knew what he was doing, calmly organised everyone, and I think it was maybe 5 pulls for the kill. My second attempt was much, much more painful, but we managed it on 10 stacks of determination. Thing is, people actually learn things, learn that they can't just stand there pushing buttons, that they actually have a responsibility, even it it's only to sort out their own sanity with the Heart. I kinda like that challenge.
My grandma and her sister play LFRs. Just keep in mind that the people playing with you may be somebody's kind and lovely grandma who bakes an awesome apple pie and also likes to play WoW sometimes, and be relaxed and nice to them.
I want this perspective to be a religion
Grandma: "lol rekt git gud scrub"
Great aunt: *teabagging your corpse*
no
that's awesome.
LFR = story, that's why main quests include killing last Raid boss.
I did some LFR in BFA for transmog (or attempts at mog), specifically Battle of Dazar'alor. I have absolutely zero reason to even touch LFR Ny'alotha because the LFR sets are obtainable outside LFR.
Blizzard should make LFR the "babby's first raid tutorial" version of the fights, with super clear indicators about how to deal with the different abilities, and I mean that in the best way possible. I don't care about reward scaling or shit like that, but raiding is a super daunting thing to someone who hasn't done it before and LFR could be the perfect system to get people involved.
Take the start of this fight for example. The pull begins and everyone starts to phase. The tanks get a message on screen: Tank Psychus onto Synapses to allow DPS to weaken him. After a few seconds, another one: Hold Psychus off Synapses to drop Creeping Anguish. When DPS phase across: When Psychus is standing near a Synapse, killing it will weaken him. Just run it all through the regular alert system.
You don't need to incentivise actual raiders to go into LFR, just make LFR better for the non-raiders.
Some people would still ignore all of that and find a way to fail. There's very little pride in LFR and what does exist is greatly exaggerated.
You can only get the lfr weapon variants from lfr
Just make the bosses kill themselves.
Another bs on this LFR is waiting to get party and when you get inside, they already done half of the boss or it is the last boss.
@Daggernath Yeah that's the thing. If you let people know that they're about to get into a raid that's halfway through, most likely the end result would be that any run that loses the tank or a few healers would just fall flat immediately because they would have to then wait FOREVER for the next tank that's willing to pick it up to show up and it would just be faster to start up a new raid entirely. That would also be insanely irritating. If you think LFR is toxic now, imagine having a few tryhards in there that have had to kill the same 2 bosses 5 times over because they've been unlucky just to get to the last boss of the wing. And then having them wipe on those two bosses. They'd implode.
That would not be so bad if they took people who did not wait very long in the queue. Those however who waited the full duration stated on the average wait time counter should be given priority for a fresh run.
To improve it further you should be able to specify what particular bosses in a wing you are interested in. If for example you are only interested in the last boss of a wing, then the game would be more inclined to pick you for a raid group thats on that boss if available.
They should change the reward system in raid. If same to mythic system no one leaving on the party.
There needs to be a checkbox if you want to join groups that already killed something, and harsher penalties for leavers. The entire poisonous atmosphere around LFR is generated by Blizzard's incompetence to implement system that actually has consequences for player behavior, good and bad.
@@SethusDA Could reward players like they do with healer/tank queues, a little goody bag thats not much but at least says like "thanks for joining a group in progress"
I would love to see a new "Fresh account" series, like you did at the end of Legion. And maybe compare the different expansions with eachother, pros & cons and if it's as much of a headache as it was in legion to pug pve content.
I'd rather he didn't do that, it sounds like he'd quit out of sheer rage.
I think he's said on stream he won't do it because of how the game is now there is no point to doing a lot of stuff. Do some warfronts, assaults, and WQs and you're ready for raiding.
I don't think he has enough sanity left
The ultimate issue with the fresh account thing for BFA is access to the essences or even with those who have been playing have that problem if they say, wanted to play a healer or tank and have been maining an all DPS class, you don't get access to buying specific essence for those two roles.
Nobody wants to farm strife and conflict essence, or any other essence
While we are talking about LFR: dungeon journal is hot garbage currently. I don't know how they organize this thing or what's guidelines to making it, but it's clearly an informational mess that is a big hurdle on LFR, because it's a prime source of information on bosses for people who do want to kill LFR. I understand that it's not supposed to be The Guide, but at least some structure to it is required, since after it's intro in Pandaria bosses became bloated with unique mechanics and spreadsheets of abilities.
Ppl who say 'read the dungeon journal' in LFR drive me mad. It's fine telling us what abilities are coming (as you say, in a terribly difficult to understand way), but that doesn't tell people what to do about those abilities.
half the important mechanics are not even in the dungeon journal lol.
its just a collection of skills pumped in there and thats it
i dont think blizzard really cares about it becoming more than that, since people that want to seriously raid will download something like dbm or look up guides anyways
My biggest complaint for a long time about WoW and Blizzard as a company is that their games are absolutely dreadful at communicating information with the player.
The only reason I can see that this is still the case is that they cant be bothered to do that hard work themselves when they know people in the community are just going to do it for them, for free.
That stock answer for any problem in WoW is 'go check '. To me that is a pretty sorry state of affairs that Blizzardshould be pretty ashamed of.
Dungeon guide is very good for telling you what abilities a boss might do, but fails miserably at telling you how those abilities are used. Quite a few times I read an ability that said something like "this thing does enough damage to one shot you, has a 401 yard range". Are you telling me this ability is going to wipe us? Is it an enrage? And then it turns out its just some random charge across the room that doesn't have a fraction of the range described.
I mythic raided all of Legion but still did tons of LFR because there was transmog sets that were worth collecting (white version of Antorus druid set for example). The sets for BFA aren't even worth collecting on heroic, let alone attempting to get them on LFR.
Ye the tier set color schemes. That is how you bring ppl to LFR. Just put the best looking gear in LFR mode =)
yeah, outside of dazar'alor and warfronts, I don't like any of the BFA sets.
erm... i got 2 sets from LFR - mail (my main) and leather (crap-alt that i barely play) just by doing some quests and assaults and i havent been in LFR not even once, so yeah, there's really not even a transmog worth going for (even if it looked cool)
Refresh my memory,
Did Legion LFR have as much of the “stop and soak, in it as the real raid?
yeah but they removed tier sets so you get generic leather generic plate etc Which tbh i've liked maybe 1 set in the entirety of BFA without the special class specific cool set With bonuses i don't see the need to even step into a raid anymore i'd rather just get the same ilvl from easier content like m+
You're a good man Preach, I hope Blizzard watch this
I'm not a raider I simply as preach said went into this just to get my quest marker done and finish the story. I spent maybe 5 hours in the queue and maybe 4 hours in the raid. Nzoth was rough but not too hard and this was the first-ever raid I've done in Modern WoW but really it just came down to knowing what mechanics did what. I come from FFXIV so a lot of this stuff was natural for me to understand.
I had knowledge that LFR was supposed to be the baby mode so I was able to shrug off losing just because I thought (well it's a group of randos we'll get it eventually) actually opening myself up more to figuring out what needed to be done on my end. As with any MMO just knowing the mechanics is all you need and we got it done. Perserverance and mechanics knowledge is the foundation of raiding I think and the rest is Patience getting 20+ other people to do the same. Too many people get angry and despair in the face of defeat when they should just buckle up for the ride - and for those who really didn't get it that were kicked, I'm sorry you were kicked but got to focus a bit more.
I remember back in Legion, some gilds on my server did "Learning" Raid's for new players, where you could join them on Teamspeak/discord and they took you with them into normal/heroic and explain the abilities and mechanic's etc. I raided a couple of time with them and In that time i learned more about raiding then in 3 years of LFR only. I think it would be awesome if blizzard could give an incentive to these guild's to encourage them to keep doing that, instead of simplifying LFR even more .
Or you as an individual can study fights and come prepared. But no, you want your hand held through it all. Much easier to do stuff when others do it for you.
I used to be one of those try hard toxic people in LFR back in Dragon Soul. I couldn't understand how people were so "bad" and could fail mechanics that I could clear in heroic easily. After quitting in MoP, and recently coming back almost a decade older and more mature, I get it now. This game may seem easy, but its really complex to an average player. I cringe at the thought of the toxic player I once was
The first rule of becoming a non toxic is to admit you WERE toxic
Think of LFR as story mode. If you are too “elite” or hate LFR, don’t enter it. Decent people who try and help are very appreciated. Thank you for trying to help out. Preach became a true Hero to a lot of people, by having a good attitude and helping out.
Reminds me of when I would lfr kiljaiden even to the last days. You literally had new people/clueless people even then. Kiljaiden was often harder than Antorus fights
When it takes 4 hours to kill a LFR boss that drops gear you can get in a mythic +2.
When it takes you 4 hrs to kill a heroic boss that [90% of the time doesn't] drop gear that you could easily get in a M+9 in 30min. :/
@@913_Niyala That's why I want a change in Mythic+
Mythic0-3 should give Rare(Blue) gear of 15ilvls lower than Normal raids, Mythic+ 4-6 should give Epic(Purple) gear of 15ilvls lower than Normal raids,
Mythic+ 7-9 should give Rare(Blue) gear of the same ilvl as Normal raids and Mythic+10+ should drop Epic(Purple) gear of Normal raid ilvl, basically Normal raid gear.
@@rattlehead999 removing any incentive to do M+ isn't going to happen to solve the non-existent issue of bad players taking 4 hours to kill a heroic boss
@@913_Niyala The people who wipe 4 hours on a heroic boss will struggle to time a +9
Just throwing in my input because I might be a bit of a minority here, or maybe not, who knows. I'm a 12/12 heroic and 3/12 mythic NYA raider. I will sometimes queue for LFR for a couple reasons.
1. The satchels have some decent gold and augment runes (which sell for more gold - I pay for my sub in gold)
2. I like to practice the base mechanics of some of the fights me and my guild blew through.
3. It's just kinda... fun? Idk There's always a few top players in there with me and battling for the top is kinda fun.
4. Raid mats. This time it was the item to get rank 3 Formless Void. Quicker I get that stuff the happier I am.
5. Transmog, I like to collect. What can I say.
6. I like raiding. Just having a big boss to kill with a bunch of people is enjoyable to me. I run M+ so much and I only raid 2 times a week. I don't see these raid bosses very often so having more chances to fight them is a bonus for me. Even if I'm raiding mythic Maut, my guild is only fighting him for... maybe 30mins? Compare that to the HOURS I've been in combat with Yazma from AD. It's just refreshing to see mechanics that I don't often see.
Just thought I'd share reasons for why me, a casual mythic raider, sometimes goes into LFR. Maybe help some people understand.
It took me 100+ pulls on LFR to get it done. That is with everyone, after 10 stacks of determination. Most of it is just coordinating people who NEVER play together on a boss that requires the coordination of people who always play together. We finally got it done when we had 2 tanks in the LFR that had experience in heroic, 2 healers who knew when the big hits were coming and enough dps on top and bottom that knew how to prioritize a kill. So, we basically did carry at least a quarter of the raid that died early on to things like finding their body or late on by thought harvester. It came down to those who knew calling out "bodies", "neck", "tenticles", "hug your partner". That seemed to do the trick. That said, I consider it a major accomplishment for the year, in a lot of ways it was harder than heroic with my guild and it was actually exciting to actually get it after hours of hard HARD work. BTW, what you said about tanking on the bodies is huge, as a druid its no problem for me to get back, but some people don't have that mobility. Thought harvester was another one.
LFR is vital imo, you have many people who only consider raiding the worthwhile feature in all of this game and for whatever reason can't get into a raid. In my guild, its because we have 2 full raid teams, no spots, likely never going to be any spots. My server is smaller so not many options beyond that. In fact, my guild is #1 on our server so the team is just not open for new players. LFR is the only way someone in my guild is going to even sniff a raid. It should be challenging, but not impossible and its borderline impossible for most people.
edit:
I see what your saying about it having no purpose now, yeah I get that. Having completion of LFR pretty much require a competent full-time raider who doesn't want to do that content is not fair to that raider. Perhaps we need to start looking at LFR as Mythic 0, just getting your feet wet. Perhaps make it training grounds like? A way to learn the mechanics or how to be a raider? FFXIV kind of has a system like this and it lets people learn their role in a raid environment before they go try to raid.
Every single final boss this expansion in LFR has been total clown shoes
jaina was fine
The problem is not with LFR , it is with the people who are in it
Azshara wasn't too bad, did it a few times and it was fine. It was only a problem if the tanks had no idea what they were doing OR you didn't have any decent dps at all
@@Drakshl forgot about her. she actually was easier than i expected
@@mateidragosadrian2038 yeah for sure. Most of the difficulty comes from mechanics you can ignore on lfr (and up to heroic with gear) if you've got decent dps
I like your approach to 'teaching people' by making them understand with no communication at all. Keep up the good work !
Some people mocked me on LFR back in Legion when I was tanking Aggramar like we do on Normal/Heroic. As you remember, he had the Foe Breaker and Flame Rend. I expected Foe Breaker to be a thing and when I told them I didn't know they took it out. Some people did mock while others pointed out that I knew how to tank Aggramar because I knew about Foe Breaker. After that? Clean kill and Argus dead.
It takes one person with proper knowledge of upper difficulty with some kills. I've yet to kill N'Zoth because we went straight to Heroic before we even had a chance to understand thr concepts of N'Zoth. We're 9/12H (Il'gynoth is causing some issues at the moment) and it's often the same people who're dying to the same stuff on farm. We had someone dying to Sha'dar despite having pretty much mastered the fight.
Heroic N'zoth was really easy for my guild, but that's because when doing normal, we already practiced the heroic strat.
Took us god knows how many tries for normal, but once we got to him in heroic? 5 pulls at best.
So if I'd advise doing something similar. Get to 11/12 N with your guild and practice the heroic strat on normal, the only difference with heroic is that you have a bit less AoEs and that they're smaller. (Or so say my guildmates, i didn't even notice.)
I had an LFR in Legion on Aggramar where one of the tanks swore up and down that he knew the boss because he tanked it on heroic. And no matter how many times we told him there is no foe breaker he simply did not listen. Because he was a heroic raider(I already had aotc with my guild) and we were stupid LFR people. No matter what he would spin the boss around and would get flown off the platform. Eventually we had to kick him.
WoW is toxic AF
Alexandre Armont dang man that sucks, 11/12 heroic with only vex to kill. My first nzoth kill was heroic in a pug that guild needed a tank. You’ll get it though fight is entirely scripted
Hey Preach, I absolutely love your videos, keep up the good work. I wanted to ask you, if you could do the legacy of cataclysm video, I would be super interested in that, cuz I thinky it wasn't at all as bad as people say, and some things were just amazing about it. Since I know you said in some video, that you actually enjoyed every spec in cata I would love to hear more about it from you. Love you bb
As a returning player I really appreciate this video... I tried talking a pug through the fight and it was hopeless. People don't read. People don't listen.
And the toxic fucks are just the icing on the shitcake. Without those better than thou asshats it would've worked. But when the flame makes people leave time and again there's just no way to get a stable group up to Nzoth standard...
A system I would like to be implemented is a positive feedback reward system similar to what they implemented in Overwatch. Make a new currency with different transmog rewards/mounts/pets as rewards for people "leveling up" in a feedback system. More instructive/positive one is in chat, leads to people upvoting or commending someone. Those upvotes give that veteran player assisting casuals currency they can then use to buy things they value in exchange for servicing their time in a place with no gear incentive. Win/Win for all involved, without making LFR forced to have zero mechanics, yet at the same time not making hardcore players feel obligated to do LFR. Make the system unexploitable by only allowing commendations outside of oneself or their own premade party.
Oooh how much I yearn for that system to be in wow
As a healer i came to like testing things in LFR (MW Builds was my latest one) this Tier.
Because for me there is just no comparison when it comes to complete random BS.
My favorite is Ra-Den LFR... such... damage.
Havent had the pleasure of N'Zoth though because, as you mentioned, the insanity mechanic makes it kind of hard to test things out as a healer.
On top of that, i guess that people just arent used to look for a second ressource.
So they dont really get "i shouldnt stand in this because... outch", they stand in it an see their life not really taking a dive.
I switched mains from the last tier, yeah i know i know , to this one.
And within this one i switched Builds twice.
And with one Raid Day a week i dont have much of an option =/.
Anyway... i completly agree with you though its not that i want to be in it or most of the other people, who queue ,for that matter.
so long
The funniest part of the video was when you said they could remove Psychus 2 and 3, and people would still get the full scope of the fight. It's hilarious and true, just because of how bad this fight is, regardless of difficulty mode.
This, so much this.
I like seeing your change of heart over the years regarding LFR.
LFR isnt about getting gear. LFR is about clearing that quest log, and letting everyone experience the story.
In WoD, the satchels for completing an LFR wing in an underrepresented role were very lucrative, dropping runes + a very healthy amount of gold. I had an add-on that tracked and alerted when one was up, and I would farm them while doing world content. Goldmakers put out some videos saying how overpowered of a way it was to make gold, and Blizzard snap reacted and nerfed these satchels, even though this method, as apposed to running old raids, or clicking on a mission table board, should be how Blizzard would want people to earn their gold.
Even though improving satchel rewards would draw players across the spectrum of skill, and not specifically get top raiders back into LFR, it would no doubt shorten the queues, making it more attractive to the player base, and thereby flattening the learning curve of the population. Blizzard could also integrate the alert add-on into their base game, removing an additional step to making this happen.
I went into LFR Nzoth the other day, ended up taking over and giving raid warnings. We got it in about 8 attempts. I definitely agree with what you said about elitism at lower ends.
Tried N'Zoth LFR this weekend, and it didn't go well at all. When I entered, the raid already had 10 determination (for those who don't know, you get 1 determination per wife, up to 10 max, which gives a total of 50% extra dmg and healing). Even at 10, we wiped something like 10 times before I left. According to the DBM addon, I currently have 27 wipes and 1 win on this fight. So it shouldn't surprise anyone that I've given this up completely, well unless they change the encounter. I'm also losing interest in LFR, which used to be one of my favourite activities in the game.
thanks to your vidoes i spend zero time with 8.3 content because thanks to you i knew its nothing for me. Keep up the work. Cant wait for your shadowlands vidoes to save me from wasting time in that expansion too.
I can't queue for M+ or M0, and staring at the "Premade finder" applying for groups or trying to put one together can take hours and still fail.
On which realm do you play?
They've gotta add m+0 to the automatic group finder. No one queues for heroic anyways.
This vid really impressed me when I first saw it and I really appreciate it still.
It is cool preach! Today, I repeatedly stuck my hand in and out of a bag of loose syringes so you didn't have to.
Felt like someone should pay you back.
Lol
I was able to clear N'zoth twice on LFR and I'm almost certain this is what Mythic feels like. Stuck at 10 stacks of determination while people:
-cant find their body to get out of the mind realm and die
-don't recharge their sanity, ever, at all
-don't bother interrupting any of the tentacles
-kill the eye first instead of the basher first
-refuse to follow the set groups to go back to the mind realm and just stay above
-cant fathom to either stay next to N'zoth or run away to prevent being pulled into shit by the grasp
also some of them just plain don't speak english so they cant coordinate with you. The groups I was in in particular actually tried using the in-game voice chat and discord AND the Fatboss guide to teach, but obviously no one is going to bother doing any of that.
Another thing: the dungeon journal makes no mention to Psychus or going back to the mindrealm to deal with him multiple times, nor does it mention the grasping tendrils that pull you either away from or towards the boss. I'd tell people to read the dungeon journal first, but that ain't gonna do shit until you get to phase 3 which even with 10 stacks of determination is an extremely challenging task.
The main problem is that these people don't raid and therefore most likely do not have DBM installed so where you can nice cooldowns and big warnings most of these people get none of that and the ability just sort of happens in their face
Not really what mythic feels like at all.
Mythic is wiping over and over and while you hyper-optimize each phase to squeeze out that tiny bit of extra DPS you need to make a phase push or better organize your healing CDs and defensives to survive the next thing that wants to kill you.
LFR doesn't really do any damage, and there aren't any DPS checks. There is no risk of dying, you just lose when everyone gets MC'd because they were oblivious as to how the fight works.
You don't have to use healing cooldowns properly...or at all. You don't need to use defensives. The fight is designed to be killed by people doing 10k DPS, but also by healers that are terrible at healing people. Like Preach said, when he went in as resto it was really easy to top the raid and keep anyone from dying, but they just went insane and got mind controlled.
Compare this to mythic where abilities are generally incredibly unforgiving, and getting hit by avoidable damage often results in death.
Mythic is slowly optimizing your raids DPS, HPS, movement and teamwork, ideally progressing a little bit further into the fight each pull.
LFR is a disorganized shit show, it's like trying to get kindergartners to all color inside the lines after blowing cocaine in their faces.
9 hours in LFR? You, my friend, are INSANE. You couldn't pay me to do that. You have my respect.
In my runs, its the "It's just LFR LOOOOOOOOOOOLS, why does it matter if this guy is only doing 12k dps ?! LOOOOOOOOL" and then they don't kick that clearly afk dude and keep wiping constantly
Did LFR KJ with an rl friend back in legion. He refused to read the journal because "Its just LFR dude" and (along with several other people) fucked up the meteor soak. He then complained about the number of noobs standing in the voidzones.
I've had the opposite experience. AFKers have been kicked. Someone have always explained the encounter. Etc. The main problem is that people aren't listening, ie completely ignoring warnings about getting to the boss or edge when the arrows appear, usually killing half the raid. Not to mention almost no one getting through the portal, which also is kinda normal. It's the same on the boss before this one - usually 10+ persons gets killed by the tentacle, even though someone always yells "get out of the shadow".
I have some horror stories about dumbass raid groups. My favorite is when Wrathion targeted me, a mage, 5 TIMES with Incinerate, forcing me to stop literally everything I was doing so I didnt kill everyone. I got kicked for low dps. Like, what the fuck?
I always wished for LFR to be this:
You are the only 'real' character inside the raid fighting alongside NPC's that mimic a somewhat typical raid-group.
You progress along the raid in scripted fights where you get educated on how the bosses work, depending on the role you chose before entering this LFR.
Those fights are either scripted in a way that you can't lose but literally get carried through the fight with explanations at various points depending on what threat you are facing or they could be a little bit more engaging where you get calls from your NPC-teammates and/or notifications on what you have to do, but you could potentially die if you don't follow those instructions given.
You could enter this LFR as often as you want, but you would only get loot once per reset, loot obviously would not be giga high.
For me this would literally just be a tool to educate players on how bosses work so that they perhaps can go into non-heroic mode (or even higher) with a little bit more confidence and knowledge.
As it stands now it's a hit-or-miss, you either land in a group that somehow has the capability to one-shot the wing you are clearing or you are the unlucky one getting thrown into a group where no-one has a clue and no-one seems to like having a clue.
So in other words...
It’s not looking for raid...
It’s looking for REWARDS.
Sad day in the kingdom when LFR has to be bribed to be played, but that was the original intention.
I've made it a habit to ignore LFR for months after it's released before qing
When I did LFR, it was so painful to see nobody interrupt the Corruptor Tentacles. Literally nobody cared about those things. It was so painful.
Nobody outside of raiders interrupts, even out in the world killing quest mobs. They just face tank everything and hope for the best. It's weird to me but if they want to play that way, they're paying just like everyone else. Can't imagine it's much fun though!
Man i havent played retail for over a year but still watch all your videos, I love your takes
First raid I ever did was LFR Crucible of Storm. Wiped so many times that I quit. It was too difficult. Skip to much later where I got more experience in raiding and my class, I'm raiding HC.
It's a shame that LFR gets a bad rep from the 'Elitists'. I did Wing 2 of Ny'alotha on an alt to test my DPS in action. As I was raiding HC on my main. I guided the raid to victory by explaining tacts, using raid warnings, placing markers. And nobody was toxic. One shot all but Vexiona. It was great. They could easily do Normal. It's just a shame that many players leave after one wipe and players become really toxic. I also told these guys they did a good job and should try normal. (The fights don't even differ that much)
I think the biggest problem with raids is there are mechanics with mechanics. Mindgrasp is the perfect example of that. Thought Harvesters too. It's overwhelming, especially for LFR. It took me 10 wipes to understand N'zoth. It takes other players 30. It's too confusing so unnecessarily.
LFR should be easier to be honest. There's so many mechanics to learn. It would be easier to grasp if they throw the mechanics step by step rather than all at once.
I'm one of those people who used to raid a lot (I don't in BFA because of work), and for the most part, I always did LFR for one reason or another. Aside from mog, I really haven't had any reason to do it in BFA. For the time that it takes to queue like Preach said, and for me, the abysmally low drop rate of items, it just isn't worth it.
I really would like to see some change in LFR and not just how it works, but it needs to redefine it's purpose. Is it really for teaching new folks how to do the bosses? I never felt that as I have tried to learn from it in the past, only to step into normal and relearn everything. I agree with what some folks have been suggesting-make LFR tutorial mode. Make it so players, both new and old, can step in and say ooooh, so THAT'S how it's done.
Maybe they should change it to the role agnostic, scenario type 1-30 ppl mode. It would allow peeps to see the content, complete the quests and earn some reward like a loot chest after each wing. A true story mode. Grouping up with randoms is not an environment to learn how to conquer higher difficulties (This sentence kind of nullifies every public system of education in the world.).
What I find interesting about all this is that FF14 normal modes are done in random, queued up groups. The mechanics are all in play, nothing is toned down. You can and will wipe on some of the harder and especially newer raid bosses, yet I don't see an outcry in that game to tone it down further. It makes me wonder if perhaps having "some" difficulty brings even the least skilled or the most casual of players to push harder and get better at the game. Or could be the mechanics are more easily read? Either way LFR recently as you said is an absolute no go. I actually agree with you for once Preach.
Something to remember about LFR is that it gets harder each day after reset.
.. huh? No? Where did you read that
Zsolt Síró it’s just a simple matter of truth. The first day you get players that want to get it out of the way for the week and tend to take it more seriously, then by the weekend you get the half afk crowd. So it gets harder with time until reset.
As painfull as it is it's a matter of kicking out the weak till you kill it with what you got. Had this issue the other day nicely explained the issue too the other tank that his gear was too low with a tier 1 Cape ,after replaced boss 1 shot.
7:10 #6 on dmg as resto OOOF
ikr...I can actually do more dps while in Heal spec than I can in ANY of my dps specs :(.....(drood)
Life is hard with no gear/essences which is most folks in lfr
I think the best way to fix LFR? Is bring back the "Flex Raids" (Which is basically LFR.) You just can't Q for it anymore. Let's you have more control and people can't troll it. Get the thing done, GFU out. :)
I used to que lfr a lot, reason: I was really new to the game and had never played before so before nyalotha came out I boosted a character and had 270 ilvl, so after doing cloak quests and getting benthic gear and most other stuff to about 350 ilvl the raid came out one thing at a time so I started playing it, since I didn't know there were other viable options, and since I didn't have a raid group to play with. It's biggest use I think is for the people who don't have raid groups in general and want to try the raids
100% agree with everything in this video. As somebody that used to be a hardcore raider & now only does LFR, I hate what LFR has become. Its exhausting trying to lead people to do simple mechanics. Its like people dont care at all to learn. None of the loot is even worth the time it takes. Something needs to change in Shadowlands, even if they remove LFR, Id rather be forced to do normal mode.
You have put it quite on point: There just is no reason to do LFR besides getting the Quest done.
And most decent players will get these done on normal/heroic.
Gearing an alt? by the time you get an LFR invite you can have completed 1-3 mythic dungeons.
In Legion i queued sometimes for the bonus loot satchel and transmog. but thats just no worth anymore
As someone pointed it out: They should just make it a solo szenario
Deleted the 'go kill N'zoth' quest from my log: Solved!
I posted this as a reply to someone else earlier who had suggested a type of weak aura like overlay to guide people. I'll post it again here for more visibility. I was thinking the same, but without arrows or overlays. Just have an NPC shout stuff, like a person would if they knew the fight. It doesn't have to be too hand holdy, but just enough so that people gain an understanding of what they should do. It could be flavorful too if they want. It's not like we haven't had NPCs join the fight before so it wouldn't even be hard to implement. Just simple statements like "another creature has joined in the attack, take it out quickly or we'll get overwhelmed!" or "BBG is looking like it's going to cast a devastating spell, if you don't stop it, we'll be sure to lose this fight!"
Best analysis of the failure of LFR ever. Great work Preach.
First horde max level in 15 years. Boosted with shadowlands boost. I had heard it was a shitshow, was curious, I went in. Can confirm, 10 stacks of determination, must’ve gone through 100+ players coming and going. Using /say helps, and repeating things in raid chat and we did kill it eventually. The real pain though is people leaving all the time. I guess it makes sense, as people are not expecting to wipe in LFR. But it means new people constantly cycle in who have none of the knowledge the people who just left took with them.
Blizz had a bit of a brainfart here, because this LFR boss is mostly equivalent to normal. Soon as you kill it, it means the majority has figured out how the sanity/heart kinda works. I bet you could take that LFR group to normal if they wanted and kill it just the same.
If blizz really wants to help the LFR community(?) while maintaining some mechanics that can’t be carried, I suggest that people are introduced to the boss before the pull. For example before every boss, unless you opt out, you get some kind of flashy popup (like the tips you get if you start a new account), for each mechanic important enough and relevant to their role.
Like for Nzoth there could be an animated card/popup demonstrating psychus dropping a pool, 2 people with paranoia stacking, etc. Right now, I have a hard time believing anyone opens the dungeon journal by themselves.
I entered LFR and there were 9 stacks of determination already then, my first attempt on the boss, I died. I was then kicked from the raid for low DPS. This is in LFR.
Maybe try harder next time lol get kicked for low dps that's sad man maybe try classic is wow for bad players
Levi Cathcart howd you die, if it was mc on you unless it was paranoia partner running away I’ve seen that happen
@@fenisreyes great addition moron.
@@legion4698 it was without a cape. Just had came back to the game and it was my first experience with that fight.
People are generally pretty miserable in LFR, but in all fairness you would have been completely useless to them all without the cloak so it was a fair kick. You'll have turned on the pull and needed nuking before you killed them every single time.
I raided with my guild in legion quite a bit, but I think I was one of the few people who actually did LFR just because there was fun in the chaos. I rather enjoyed derping around, while still knowing the fights lol.
Pures should get a reward for even quing for any LFD/LFR. The wait time they are forced to endure since they can't do any other role is painful.
Yeah.... I'm not gonna do that. I can live with my character not having "finished" this expansion in exchange for not sitting down for 5 hours in LFR.
I'll never understand the utter hatred certain streamers (not preach?) have for LFR, Asmongold's podcast mention it every single show as a leading cause of why people don't raid because LFR gear is already too good, all my characters are 445-460 just from world quests and visions, I haven't stepped foot in LFR since Jaina's fight because I wanted to see the area, LFR takes months to come out fully, normal and heroic are cleared on day 1 with pugs.
LFR Kil'Jaeden from the Tomb of Sargeras was the most painful experience ever.
I'm pretty sure they have an algorithm where you have 4-5 high ilvl people and the rest are all ranging from bare minimum to an average ilvl, and if your other healers aren't healing (extremely low ilvl, people who queue as heals for a quicker queue and dps anyway, afk-ish people) then you can end up trying to solo heal a 25man raid.
It can be carried, though not by normal means. I had to do 147k dps on this fight in order to make it work. Me, and another cutting edge player, joined this as a fire mage+tank, and solo'd psychus twice, meaning that all the upstairs guys had to do was survive until we were back, and then we'd just burn the boss down with BL. Im DEFINITELY not saying "this fight is easy lol" but it is carryable by 2 people if some very specific checkboxes are ticked.
GoEasy Guides lul
I agree in that its not easy, but the difficult part is not a dps check or anything like that. We got it done in LFR when we had enough people who knew what to do making sure we got it done. I mean at one point we had one person (me) calling out "necks!" another "bodies!", "tenticles", "front/back", "hugs" etc. What I learned is that LFR people are some of the most determined people ever lol and the problem is not knowing how to play their class, its not knowing what to do. I guess you could extend that to not learning from their mistakes like normal raiders do. Maybe they just don't care, but after you realize that not getting to your body kills you then normal raiders prioritize getting to their bodies and tanks prioritize making that obvious by where they tank.
The other thing I would say is don't make LFR require interrupts, players consistently cant find those buttons on bars. Might as well rename them "pvp vendors".
@@trxe420 I totally agree that the biggest issue is people not knowing what to do. Having someone yell out orders, for lack of a better word, makes it really easy. It took 2 attempts when I started barking at people, and not one of them died on the successful pull. Most people do want to kill the bosses because they give loot, and some of them are willing to shut up and do as they're told in order to get that loot. I don't know why people wouldn't try and figure it out for themselves, but I'm really not the target audience. The only barrier otherwise is people who think they're pro swallowing their pride and taking guidance. There's a lot of really weird power battles in there, like being able to convince a group to kick someone makes them special, even if that person is trying to help them. Miserable gits, and probably why so few people bother. The "toxicity" is really powerful. I really don't understand why they're all so averse to interrupting though, very strange!
It seems the encounter is indeed a bit overtuned for LFR, but then again, weeks will pass, people will get more gear, corruptions etc. I don't see it as that much of a problem that the end boss of an expansion is somewhat challenging even on LFR.
Omg the psychus thing... you have no idea how many tanks want to kill him on the opposite end of the room, while I'm playing a dk. I hope you can feel a fraction of my pain from this.
Had to spend 4 hours raid leading LFR Nzoth, was pretty chill and a lot of the people were really cool but oh my god, the amount of energy it took and time was insane.
What's amusing for me is that I play a feral druid, a 425 iLVL cat with a rank 1 cloak at the time. Spent about 6 hours trying LFR and went ahead and upgraded my cloak to rank 5 and increased my gear score to 430. Also was specced more for world stuff rather than LFR at the time (healing abilities, etc.) and so far at that time only made it to phase 3 once.
Sadly, that time the only reason why we made it to phase 3 was because we had no tanks drop down into the portal on the second run and I popped Bear Form. Tanked it myself, did not die, and we cleared Psychus and made it just to start and end up wiping on phase 3 because we didn't know what to do. I don't think it's difficult, especially when half the time I'm usually one of the few left standing while everyone else gets gifted by N'Zoth.
Some irl stuff came up when the raid released so I was unable to join my raid team. I got back into the game and decided to try Raid Finder Nzoth.
I'm surprised that it took hours for you Preach because it only took us two pulls to kill it, first one I was confused by everything, then got the gist of it. And second try the raid made it, less than 30 minutes (this was about a week ago on a Disc Priest). Had a 'raid leader' who was calling out instructions and everyone sufficiently followed them for us to make it xD
I remember Lei Shen LFR back in MoP and the fight was simply un-do-able without at least 10 stacks of determination because it was overtuned and people didn't know the phases. At least with lei shen, you could brute force it enough dps from the determ stacks. Stayed that way for a while too until blizz finally nerfed it.
I've never been a raider. the most I've ever raided was a few normal raids, and I didnt even finish them, so LFR is pretty comfortable for me, I like to come and experience the story so that's all I need. Last night I couldn't understand why it was so hard!we just wiped and queued and wiped and queued. never been so bad. makes me feel slightly better knowing even Preach says it's notoriously difficult!
I have come from the future to tell you, it is probably worse now- after all these months- than it was back then. I just want to get my quest down for completionism’s sake, and I have given up. There is just no point. Even at 10 stacks most groups won’t get to even phase 3 every time. I won’t do that to myself just for some azerite and a completed quest
Had a great time clearing out my quest log personally. Queued as tank, got in very fast to a group that had already built up 10 stacks of determination, the other tank said he'd handle Psychus and just needed me to jump on the basher tentacles and watch my sanity, and we one-shotted. Can't imagine that's typical, though.
I think having mount drop from last boss helps a little, since people, who clear heroic/mythic and are collectors usually want one extra chance every week to drop it, but of course, you can't add mount to every raid in expansion
I personally know 5 people who don't have time they can freely schedule due to their jobs. So they have little choice but to do LFR and they are actually quite happy that there is one boss out of 12 that requires a little bit of know how to do. While I agree with most of what you say mike, that only works if you exclude them because they aren't the ony ones who play like that.
I clearly remember what a mess LFR Archimonde was in HFC. 1 hour long que, killed after 12 stacks of determination or something like that. It was impossible to organise people to do the nether teleportation correctly. It was the only time in Wod when i bothered to try last boss on LFR (normal however went down flawlessly even in a bug). Garrosh was a different story because mops LFR was overall harder which made groups more prepared, however i can't say if that was right direction for tourist mode.
In Legion i killed Argus on Heroic even before LFR wing opened so there was little reason to try. Went there once, didn't even get over Agramar, it was a huge mess. It seems that this superhard endboss LFR is here to stay. Im not sure why but i guess Blizzard thinks that they need to give LFR consumers atleast some gameplay features cause truth to be told, many will never rise up to normal or try something different like pvp or horrific visions on solo. I haven't step on my feet into N'yalotha even in LFR, just because i don't need to. You can get almost mythic level armor pieces from visions and normal lvl gear from emissaryes (which can be corrupted), so in gearing sence it's worthless. Honestly i kinda don't find any reason for LFR in it's current state. Its not necessary for gearing and because of its high complexity the whole "story mode experience" looses its worth. If i wanna see N'yalothas story, i can simply go to wowheads youtube channel. Atleast it doesn't take 9 hours of my life.
Um sir you have been teasing a legacy video for a long time now and i need it in my life right now please.
Yeah, I can only think of maybe three times I've been in LFR this whole expansion. Once to run a friend through to see the fights, once to test out my new healing set-up, and once when I was thirsty enough for just a little more Azerite at the start of a patch.
I don't necessarily hate LFR. I credit it for being the one thing that made me want to raid in the first place. But, man, I admit I've been glad this expac that I haven't felt obligated to get in there and I'd be ambivalent about Shadowlands giving me power incentives to join. Just maybe have it drop less trash-tier transmogs next expansion. That's usually about the right level of incentive for me.
I do lfr because I have a job, look after my house and myself, then have to do office work at home and get maybe 2 hours a day to play few days a week. I used to do hardcore raiding up till cata and I know the level of commitment and time required for it. I'm just not about that life anymore. I'm in my early 20s playing Video games for mad hours is not a good look for me
You mentioned people that do LFR mainly do it to check that quest off their logs, and lets be honest with the ilvl gear it gives that’s all it really should do. What they could do is remove it as a queue system and simply just throw you in with 19 NPCs that play around your role, you get to smash through the raid and enjoy it, see the whole experience what it’s all about and that’s it, get that quest checked off your list and see the big bad of the patch. no queue times or wiping involved
If people are willing to wait almost an hour to get into Raid Finder, they must really want to do it. If it's not for gear or character progression, what could it be? Fun, maybe?
I'd suggest the attraction of Raid Finder over emissaries is that Raid Finder is more fun - exactly because it's more difficult. Some of us aren't interested in the hassle of a raiding guild, but still enjoy learning raid encounters. For us, making Raid Finder easier would make it less fun, which would not be an improvement.
I didn't need LFR once upon a time, but now I've got Arthritis and can't spend hours dedicating to a raiding guild, it really is a godsend for me. Until we get the group who just shout "Gitgud" and leave after a single failure.
In 11-year history of LFR we could pinpoint some really bad (hard) bosses that would wipe the groups and cause the determination buff to reach 10 stacks which is the maximum.
Elegon in MSV - the floor boss claming 80% of the raid. Well, at least this was one-time affair. On next pull most would live.
Durumu in TOT - the laser cutter and this fucking maze, bruh. Could barely see the path in there before adjustments.
Lei Shen in TOT - overtuned af for LFR, they basically left all its mechanics from normal mode and slightly reduced numbers
Garrosh in SOO - same thing
Archimonde in WOD - same thing
N'Zoth in BFA - the silliest one by far, you could queue to it without the cloak and get MC'd instantly. First day of this LFR was literally impossible with 5-10 immediate MC's in each raid group.
They should revamp LFR into a solo or with friends experience. Bosses designed to be more easy, focus on story and not to boring gameplay. Not a copy but a customized experience and you get some NPCs at your side. They have done a lot of work in that regard. So everyone sees it and everyone is happy.
They kind of did get a very reasonable incentive now to get people to raid LFR with the Echoes. However even if you need those you will want them on your alt (which is probably normal geared and not this overgeared full mythic alt). This means while you bring the information to the raid you still can't deliver the dps to just flat out carry the raid and it will still take forever to get the raid going.
I did LFR today (actually everything, not just Nzoth) on my mage (like 435ilvl or something like that) and I noticed that too many layers of things can't be ignored on Nzoth, while the rest of the bosses don't have too much that you NEED to do to kill the boss. Even if you don't kill all the blobs on the tentacle on carapace p1 and the tentacle "explodes" (Idk what it does, it just deals dmg) you lose a few to the damage, but generally healers can just heal that back. You can take your time and run up 1 side with the whole raid to clear the growths on the wall and run back to do the other half. Even P3 doesn't proof too much of a threat aslong as the tanks get most adds aggroed and the healers can keep them alive you can just braindead nuke on the boss. The other bosses in the raid are even easier than Carapace since they took everything that could wipe you away. The blobs on Shadhar do no dmg, Drestagath gives out the buffs automatically when an add dies, Xanesh has no football mechanic, etc.
Nzoth on the other hand doesn't only have the personal mechanic where you have to watch your sanity and actually use the extra action button, you also need to play some mechanics to not die individually (the mc where he pulls you in/out). Furthermore, while the voids in LFR usually do no dmg and you can ignore them and stand in them/run through them anyway the ones at Nzoth drain your sanity, leaving no heal and no other player able to carry the burden for you. The tanks also need to know what they are doing, the pulling is very essential in the psychus phase to get back to your body, although you could add that under personal responsibilty aswell to not die from basically oneshot mechanics. The worst thing of all for me which no other boss I can think of in LFR required: You need to ACTUALLY make groups and have the people follow those groups to have a psychus group and a tentacle group. So even if EVERYBODY watched a guide/knows the fight from their main you STILL have hurdles to jump through to get a kill, which seems unreasonable for how LFR seems to be intended and the rewards it gives.
Lfr when titanforging was a thing was absolutely lucrative. Nowadays its kinda dead but in the past characters could get insanely powerful loot from lfr, especially when tier sets were a thing
Completely off topic but I was thinking about a concept for the final raid of Shadowlands. It's the realm of the dead, so let's bring back the best dead guys we've got and make a raid out of some of the best bosses wow has ever had, could go something like #1: Kel Thuzad (Vanilla) #2: Ragnaros (Vanilla) #3: Kael Thas (TBC) #4: Deathwing (Cata) #5: Garrosh Hellscream (MOP) #6: Blackhand (WOD) #7: Gul Dan (Legion) #8: Arthas (WoTLk) #9: Sylvanas (Shadowlands) #10: Jailer (Shadowlands). I hope they do it, what do you think guys
he's so right, the people in LFR who screech about how bad LFR is, are the people who never set foot in normal raid-modes, not elites looking down on others as the public perception is.
I'd be very interested in a video on the topic of how would you fix LFR going into Shadowlands. What would you change it into. I don't raid, I'm not even in a guild - so naturally, if I want to do a quick raid for a quest or whatever, LFR would be the natural choice (or LFG for Normal let's say). We certainly need something accessible and completable for everyone, but it could be a really good stepping stone for player like me, who like the idea of raiding, and want to try it to see if it's for them - or they were trying to complete their quests and find out that they somewhat like what they were doing and want to try more.
Making LFR the easy mode where you don't really have to do anything is kinda a solution, but then as you've said, only those who wanted to finish the quest would do it which would lead to very long wait times (which is very bad for casual players who don't have time to play). Trying to "force" raiders back into LFR with rewards would lower queue times, yes but then would those players have fun doing trivial content with random players over and over (like Island Expeditions)? No.
I wonder if they made an AI driven experience, where you could try a Raid in different roles aided by AI groups (or even a scripted piece of a raid) where you could learn the mechanics, complete the kill quest and that's it. After that, you'd know the basics of the boss mechanics and then could do an LFR where it's not entirely trivial. (I don't know how much work would this be - is there a well working, low development resource requiring solution to this.)
Its actually very common for ppl to have a few boss kills on normal just to try it, and go straight for heroic.
NOT ALL HEROES WEAR CAPES
Amazing Content as usual Preach
ive recently come back to the game and did a few lfrs for gear, the mechanics are super easy obviously but the boss fights are fun your first time around and im sad i missed out on progression it seems like an awesome tier, makes me want to raid properly in 9.0
As im a player coming back since just before Cata, in WOTC, the Ulduar dungeon system helped players learn mechanics against bosses that translated well once you went raiding within the citadel. I just popped a character to 120 to get max level so i havent been within any of the new dungeons to see the difference, but do you feel your leveling process and dungeon grinding helps train regular players into having more of a clue while raiding? And yes, a knowledgeable tank, even since everquest, can make or break an unknowledgeable raid group. And im saying that as a raid leader for who knows how many raids and actually enjoyed pug type raids to get new people up to speed and the shear randomness that would happen.
I am currently using LFR to introduce my son into raiding for the first time. He has never done anything other than 5 man content and is now finding himself wanting to try raids.
I haven't even tried it on LFR out of horror. I just learned how to tank with guild normal/heroics and I'm so happy I didn't have to do LFR.
They should just make LFR single player content at this point.
Use the 'advanced' Island Expedition AI as your raid team; use story-relevant characters and fill up to 10 with random NPC "players". It shouldn't be that difficult to program the AI to run out of fire, or tank the boss in a specific spot. Have the boss' actual mechanics simplified; the mechanics will target and be handled by just the player. "Quickly champion, bring the orb to the side paths", "Lure that blob to the Il'gynoth's eye", "go kill that add, champion!".
As far as I know, the people who actually enjoy lfr do so because they want to see the story, but either don't have the time or play the game single player. This way, you get the story without wait times and without relying on other people. It prevents the toxic environment that lfr is, and helps combat the gear inflation we currently have in the game.
The downside is that it requires a bit of work on Blizzard's side, so it wont happen.
Preach being 6th on damage done while playing a healer says a lot about LFR.