Things Have Changed For Us... | Whiskey Talk
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I've been at this a long time. Some people get into whisky (or any other type of booze), find what they like, and stay with it. They seem perfectly happy, but they miss out on new experiences. Others prefer to branch out and try new things. Naturally, their tastes will change over time, and their goals and preferences will change. For a UA-cam channel, embracing this change is the only way to make the channel viable for the long term; otherwise, it would get stale. I have always been the type who likes to seek out something new. It is rare that I replace a bottle of booze with the same thing after I have finished it, though there are a few standard items that I like to keep around. Even though I have been drinking whisky, wine, and many other things since the 1990s, I still feel like I am learning, and my preferences now are different from what they were just two or three years ago. Bourbon and Scotch have changed a lot since the 1990s. The selection available now is far better, and while some of the basic products seem to have declined in quality over the years, there are a lot more premium and unique products these days. It has been fascinating to watch the absurdity of the bourbon boom. I never got caught up in it. Perhaps I have been around long enough to see boom/bust cycles, or maybe I'm just a cynical old grump, but when I see hordes of people going nuts over something that I always thought was good but not great, I feel driven to run the other way. If something I like becomes unavailable, I can always find something else. Also, I've never specialized in any one category of booze. One day, I might drink bourbon, but the next day rum might sound better, and the day after that, I'll drink a glass of wine. This is an approach that I strongly recommend even if you have a favorite category. The variety out there is too amazing to ignore.
The secondary market is an interesting problem. I think the arguments from availability even at a high price have some validity. Also, though I'm an economic leftist, even I understand that nobody can repeal the law of supply and demand, so whenever a highly desired product is extremely scarce, the price will go up, and if government regulation gets in the way, a black market will form. This is precisely what has happened with bourbon. The secondary market is technically illegal in most of the United States, but it is thriving anyway. I don't have a problem with people who do some trading with other bourbon lovers, as this can help to alleviate regional availability problems and get around artificial scarcity that is caused by the three tier system. Also, retail stores have the right to set prices high and let products sit on the shelves if they want. Distributors control allocations, so hopefully these stores aren't getting more than their fair share. If the three tier system didn't exist, producers would be able to influence this directly and keep it from getting fully out of hand. It is flippers and scalpers who bother me; they aggressively buy up supplies that they don't intend to use for themselves, artificially inflating demand. They can do very well when prices are on the upswing, but it is risky. I love it when the hype train burns out and scalpers are left holding the bag. There was a period of temporary scarcity recently in video game consoles, and scalpers took full advantage. The result is that more children than necessary were disappointed at Christmas when their parents couldn't get the consoles. These scalpers did not provide any value; they were parasites on the market. They caused prices to artificially increase and drove some people to buy consoles from untrustworthy sources, often with the warranties voided and with no way to return a defective product. Even worse, during World War II, people hoarded food and other scarce goods, such as tires, in order to get around the rationing system and to sell them on the black market. These people were traitors and richly deserved to be punished when caught, but sadly, even during a wartime emergency, there will always be unethical people like this, and it is almost impossible to stop them.
Very well said, as always, Heather and we couldn't agree more with all of this. You always leave thoughtful comments and this may be one of your best yet.
I passed on dozens of bottles of Stagg at secondary prices in stores. I also choose not to purchase anything at those stores. After being patient over several months I bought a bottle of Stagg at $70.
Yes a fool and his money are easily parted but patience and not overpaying is something we can all be better at. Also Im sure my bottle will taste much better and I wont have regret if its not the best thing ive ever had.
Same here! Stagg 250.00-350.00 everywhere then 3 weeks ago I walked into the local BevMo and they just got six bottles so I grabbed one for 72.00 then last week I walked into 9 bottles for 42.00 each and the guy let me buy all of them and 10 bottles of Weller 12yr for 70.00 I’ve been trading some bottles and letting my friends get the same savings! So yes, just be patient! Cheers!
While I don't disagree overall, I was challenged in the comments a while back and it really shifted my perspective. It was on a video where I was talking about Four Gate. The question I was challenged with was how I could say I'd spend $200 on Four Gate bottles but only $60-100 on Stagg, and then I was asked which bottle I'd rather have--the Four Gate or the Stagg--and if my answer was Stagg (which it is), shouldn't I be willing to pay as much for Stagg as I am willing to pay for Four Gate?
I know it's not a popular opinion, and one I fought for years, but that comment exchange a few months back really put things into perspective for me. Just some food for thought and the basis behind my current opinion.
@@stuffandwhiskey agree, if it’s something you want and the price is okay then go for it. I’ve overpaid a few times to get what I wanted. But patience pays off sometimes:) and some luck:)
@@stuffandwhiskeyAh that’s a great point. You should have said that in the video! Meh you probably said it in a different video, and you didn’t want to repeat yourself.
The great thing about this hobby, at least to me, is that opinions on stuff changes and that's actually considered a good or desirable thing in many ways.
I think it's cool you guys decided to do a whole video about the way some of that has changed. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Thanks for the kind words, thoughtful comment, and for watching Tom. Cheers!
I did not see earlier versions but I like your non-scripted version greatly! Thanks and Happy New Year!!
You guys are the best. My resolution is to get my wife into whiskey in 2024. Was just telling her about your channel.
You didn’t ask for suggestions, but here is my ideal video. A blind with an allocated bourbon, vs its shelfie counterpart. The experienced people here could come up with good examples. Anyway, it think it would hit on the theme of your resolutions as well.
Happy new year, thanks for the great times in 2023.
Ah thanks so much man! Cheers to you guys and Happy New Year! Plenty of available vs allocated head-to-heads to come in 2024 on our Thursday videos and a ton in the archives to check out as well. Thanks for watching!
Great content! Semi-new to the bourbon scene (My son introduced me) and a new subscriber. I normally enjoy red wine with my bride, however, with my "grand reserve" status with Total Wine, I was able to get my hands on a bottle of Weller single barrel. I know this is a wheated bourbon and not necessarily your favorite (anymore 🙂), but I have to tell you, this was so nice and enjoyable it opened my world to the taste of good bourbon. I truly enjoy your content and look forward to your videos!
Cheers, thanks for watching, and that’s a great score! We had Weller Single Barrel on a recent Pours Unknown video in a blind tasting and really enjoyed it.
Happy New Year! Love your show, keep up the good work. Thank you guys for all of your opinions.
Your talk about the secondary market reminded me of someone at work who told me a few weeks ago that he got into collecting bourbon. "If it's rare and hard to find, I want it" he said to me, trying to act as if we share the same interest in whisky. He then offered to buy my ECBP C923. I politely declined, telling him that that's not why I buy my whisky. I didn't say anything else I had in mind because he's my boss's boss and we were at work. 🙂
This is the way. We never sell anything, but we are past balking at marked up prices. To each their own as to what they're willing to pay.
Happy New Year to you both-cheers🥃
Happy New Year! Great show as always! Cheers!
2024 is the year of chilling out a bit and not taking everything so darn seriously. Glad to see you are onboard! 😃. I like the new lighting.
Cheers to all of that Jeff! And thanks for digging our more speakeasy-inspired lounge vibe.
Happy New Year to you two. I like a variety...wheat, rye, finished, scotch, tequila...etc 🥃🥃
Happy new year guys! Cheers 🍻
Cheers and Happy New Year!
Curious to know if you guys ever pair cigars with your whiskey. If i remember correctly, you are from the Nashville area, and there are a few good cigar lounges in town. I live up in Erin, close to Clarksville and Fort Campbell. Happy new year, and look forward to your future content!
Hey neighbor! We know tons of folks love to pair whiskey and cigars together, and we're sure it's an awesome experience, but we're just not cigar people ourselves. Now dessert and whiskey pairings we could talk about all night long. 😂 Cheers and thanks for watching!
Great video, its amazing how your tastes (and ours) have evolved especially after blind tasting. Happy New Year!
Happy New Year!
I really enjoy this channel because you both compliment each other. I hope this comes across as positive. Josh seems to be the whiskey nerd…knows all the details. I love it when he is shocked how something comes across in the blinds. Erin is great to come in from a novice perspective and just give her opinion without that nerdy background. It is very raw and honest. You both are great at describing what you are tasting. Looking forward to 2024.
You get us. The dynamic of the whiskey nerd and the whiskey novice is definitely who we are and what we always hope to bring to our little slice of whiskeytube. It's always a huge compliment when folks notice and appreciate what we do. Thanks so much for watching!
Great philosophy, so you will spend more on your Horology interests. Love the channel and content, happy New Year.
Cheers and thanks for watching!
Happy New Years guys hope we all have a great 2024
Like the casual community conversation approach - keep it up! But I do love a good wheater, so don’t give up on them completely. Happy New Year!!
Stay tuned... 😉 Funnily enough a lot of wheater content is coming up in the month of January.
I'll be watching for sure! Thanks!
I am still STAUNCHLY against the secondary market. I feel that distributors have WAY too much power to control that market than it should. ALSO, If people didn't pay the price it would come down, HARD.. I understand the whole supply/demand aspect but that works both ways. I only watch 3 whiskey-tube channels regularly YOU, Junkies and ADHD. Y'all do such a GREAT job!! Happy New Year and thank you for your content!
Josh here. That's a fair point and the stance I've had for years. Unfortunately, unless everyone participates in boycotting all prices over suggested retail--which is idealistic at best--then nothing will change.
Realistically, people aren't going to stop paying marked up prices for bottles they really want, so all we can hope for is that demand wanes or supply booms to bring things down. Otherwise, the only three options are to pay up for the bottles you want, hope you get lucky getting a bottle you want at suggested retail, or do without the bottle. It's a choice we all have to make.
@@stuffandwhiskey Hey Josh, Thanks for the response. I agree that it is an unrealistic expectation but you have to start somewhere.. HEHE... CHEERS!
Really depends on what we're definitely as secondary as well. I will never pay $90 for Weller SR since it's a $25 bottle but I would pay $40-45
@@ozo012 I also agree with that. I would never pay more than 20 over retail no matter how badly I wanted the bottle. I may be int he minority but if I can only get a pour of (INSERT UNAVALIBLE ALLOCATION BOTTLE HERE) then I would be happy with that as mostly the pour cost is dependent on retail. In Knoxville there is a Speak Easy, you have to have their social media pages to get the daily password to get in, called Peter Kern Library and they keep an incredible allocation stock. They have the 25 year Pappy. There I would pay a bit more for the spot experience but the retail on a 25 pappy is really high to begin with. Cheers..
@@stuffandwhiskey We completely agree with you on this! But as your channel and lots of us whiskey drinkers know, there are a lot of GREAT, reasonably priced bottles, like a LOT of other bottles that are great without paying stupid money. I have paid stupid money for plenty of bottles and often have buyers remorse but we decided to not overpay anymore...to not contribute to the crazy marked up pricing game. Cheers to 2024 you two!! Michael and Dawn 🙂
Happy New Year!!!! You Crazy Kids!!!Hoping the Best of 2024 in Bourbon Blinds!
Looking forward to the budget video's. My whiskey budget isnt large and there is a lot to try for someone with a limited budget. Getting a bad bottle is a disaster, thats why I watch a lot of videos.
Agree about the secondary market. Once in a while - if it fits your budget, and you want an allocated bottle for your collection or gift, it is the answer. And it is the ONLY answer.
Kudos to you for sharing an honest opinion on secondary. Definitely gonna get a lot of crap for it I’m sure, but not from me. I don’t have any qualms with someone deciding to pay what they’re comfortable paying for a bottle they want. It’s their money, it’s their choice. There’s a difference between paying secondary because of FOMO and paying secondary because you’ve made a thoughtful and calculated decision.
Very well said, re: FOMO vs knowing what you want and weighing opportunity costs.
I taste that same "funk" in Rye's. That Sagamore double Oaked had a strange flat stale dark beer note that made it hard to finish. My first rye and my first bad pour. Back to bourbons. Learning is part of the experience.
Have you tried other ryes? If not, I'd not give up on them as double oaked is a different beast.
Just try a traditional, good rye - such as Wild Turkey 101 Rye - to see if you like *ryes* . (Myself, I like bourbon but I don't like double-oaked bourbon.)
Erin not sure if you have thought of this yet but what is the difference between wheat funk that you don't like and the rye funk that you do like??
Good question. It’s a sourness in wheaters vs an earthiness in ryes.
Love the idea of budget bourbon finds. Kroger's Tradewater bourbon, Trader Joe's Bourbon, Old Crow, Jim Beam Double Oaked... so many I'd like to see you review. Fun idea and in my price point. Happy 2024.
I know you said that the Buffalo Trace line isn't the best for your profile but you should consider the Benchmark line for your "budget" series. Personally, I like the Small Batch, but enjoy most of them. Well done on this episode!!
You two are so enjoyable to watch. Kinda like listening to jazz for me. Very relaxing 😂 much different from so many other bourbon UA-camrs which is a great niche. Anyway I'm the same way about having a few special bottles that I slowly drink on. The rest is just stuff I like. As well my tastes have also moved away from wheated and more into ryes. Anyway thanks again and keep up the great material 👍
That’s a huge compliment. That’s exactly the vibe we’re going for, because it’s exactly how we live our everyday lives and what it’s like to hang out here and share pours with us. Thanks for making our night with this comment!
@stuffandwhiskey you're certainly welcome. You guys are like good friends I just haven't met yet 😅
Thank you on your opinion on Buffalo Trace I have had a couple bottles and I thought it is good, But not worth chasing.
Corruption is my issue with the secondary market. Bent distributors or store managers that send bottles out the back door to friends to sell on secondary and split the profits etc…. It happens a lot and that’s not organic demand. Those are bottles that never appear on a shelf.
But it is nice to be able to turn bottles of Blantons into something I actually want and will never find in a shelf.
Josh here. Backdooring is certainly a big issue in and of itself and a whole can of worms. It happens in other hobbies of mine as well and it's a bummer for sure.
Love it! I do have to say I think Josh takes Whiskey seriously, just not himself. Which I appreciate. I take whiskey seriously as far as learning about it, knowing what’s out there, where it’s coming from, staying in tune with whiskey news. I don’t take myself seriously though. Haha!! 😂 cheers! 🥃
Cheers to all of that Terrence!
For me…Bardstown Origin BIB > Weller 107. I enjoy the change up that wheaters offer. The only bourbon I have yet to really enjoy is 4 grain.
Erin, youre sooo patient today!
Bardstown origins BIB (black label) is a very funky wheater. It has a very haybale or barn note. I kind of liked it but I would imagine this is probably a bottle that made you run out of the room screaming. Holladay soft wheat Rickhouse Strength is a very unfunky wheater. Highly recommend if you have yet to try it.
We're starting to see a little Holladay in our area. Will be on the lookout for Rickhouse Strength!
Cheers!
Can you recommend a good NON OAK bourbon with lots of good flavor and not too much cost?
All bourbon is aged in oak so there will always be that influence there. Younger bourbon will have less oak though. Things like Old Forester Signature 86 and 100 come to mind first when thinking about your parameters.
On the secondary prices at my local shops I gotta blame the distributors for part of the problem. Just had a lengthy talk with my local store and what the distributors are doing are telling him things that are not normally allocated are now allocated. He has been told on some sku’s that again aren’t normally allocated that he can only buy 1 case every 3 months as long as he is ordering enough of things they want him to push. Get rid of 3 tier and let the distilleries go direct to consumer
DTC would be a great move for sure. Maybe one day we'll see it happen. I sure would love it.
Absolutely - that middle man is a scam and completely unnecessary.
Blind tastings are SO key. It's way too easy to get biased by brands. If it tastes good, the brand shouldn't matter.
As far as secondary goes, it's still a firm no to me. There's way too much great whiskey under $100 to get caught up in the FOMO 💯
Definitely YES on blinds! We vowed to do more of those this year. I know I am swayed by the color and the bottle name, reputation, price paid, etc... We need unbiased tastings and S&W do a great job with Blinds!
@@chasingneat,
If you want to step up your game in blinds, consider using colored Glencairns. A couple of the channels I follow do that. One very popular channel does black Glencairns - which can be bought as a set of two - and another channel uses Glencairns in gold, green, red, blue, black.
Myself, I've been using colored tasting glasses for a few years. It's really nice that you can't see the sticker or tape (that you put on the bottom of the glass to identify it) while you're sipping.
@@BeThereAgain_BestServedNeat that's a great idea!! Thanks for the suggestion!
Was the song Erin was going to sing be Get Loose by TI and Nelly? Also with regard to secondary I’m good with it now depending on the situation. Some stores now have a raffle system of spend $500 bucks for the chance to get Stagg Jr at $80. If I wanted that Stagg Jr I’d buy it for $250 at another store.
Josh here. I'd need to rewatch on the song but there's no telling. 😂 Great example of the math not adding up by spending $500+ just to hopefully get an opportunity to buy a bottle at $80 when you could just get the exact bottle you wanted for $250 outright (if you really want it and it's worth that much to you). I think for me, personally speaking, the biggest thing is only paying up for the bottle I know I'll really enjoy. It makes the bigger spends more educated rather than paying higher prices just for hype.
@@stuffandwhiskey,
Nice to see you're identifying who's writing the reply. When there's more than one person at a channel I always wonder whom the reply is from.
Loved the episode, but I have to admit, I’m shocked about the secondary market. The secondary market is like holding so,e whisky hostage. In my very humble opinion it isn’t right that the secondary market raises the price of a whisky just because they can, it shouldn’t cost double the MSRP.
I love what y’all do and appreciate your opinions on the whiskies y’all are tasting. I especially enjoy the blind tastings. Please keep doing what y’all are doing.
Josh here. I hear ya. I’d have been shocked at my own opinion at the beginning of last year as well.
What I didn’t mention in the video was the personal angle, but it’s important to note that I place a VERY high value on my time with my family. I also work a full time job and we put a lot of work into the channel as well on a weekly basis. Time is my most valuable asset.
With that said, I have two options to get certain hard-to-find bottles. I can 1) leave my wife and daughter at home for hours and hours on end while I visit multiple liquor stores, wait in lines, build relationships with liquor store staff, camp out overnight for drops, etc all in hopes of getting bottles I want, or 2) I can work, spend what little free time with my family, and simply pay a premium to get the exact bottle(s) I want with zero hassle.
Realizing that I was spending time away from loved ones to look for bottles is where the shift in my perspective has come from. I personally value the time with my wife and daughter more than any small premium I might pay for a select few bottles, so it became an easy call for me.
You're obviously free to disagree, and to each their own, but I can only speak to the truth of my own personal situation and preferences.
Do you think your palates have changed, or has your response to certain styles changed as you became opened up to different things? I'm starting to notice some slight changes for me and I can't decide if it's a cyclical thing or what. Interesting.
Good question Robert! i know at least for Laura and I, our palates are in a constant state of evolution... i can remember thinking all scotch tasted like iodine and bandaids, rye tasted like toothpaste, and american single malts tasted like stale bread... over the past several years though, we have drastically changed. We no longer get any of those notes we used to get - even if i tell myself they are there amd look for them! so i definitely believe palates evolve.
Im curious to see what Josh and Erin think on this one as well... Cheers! 🥃
@@TroyfromBakerDrinks Happy New Year, Troy. I remember my first peated scotch was a crime against humanity. Now I'm a big peathead. 🤷
Great questions. There's definitely some palate evolution there, most notably in me (Josh) starting to appreciate ryes more and more, but our core preferences are definitely still in line with what they've always been. As we've tasted more and more over the years, I think it's simultaneously helped us to appreciate a broader scope of whiskey while also narrowing in on exactly what we like. It doesn't seem like those two should be able to happen at the same time, but that's certainly how we feel.
love you guys
Thanks so much for watching Eric!
Unscripted is the best! Love the honest and immediate reactions from you both! Looking forward to 2024!
Drink what you love, and love what you drink...and enjoy the journey..
Amen!
Wait a minute only 5 😋 Happy New Year😁
I heard “Fight the FOMO” to the tune of “Fight the Power” from Public Enemy. ✊
My concern about the secondary market is getting a legitimate bottle vs a counterfeit bottle. This has stopped me from paying higher prices for bottles that I’ll just never see at a store.
There are plenty of stores that a lot of people knock as “museum stores” that sell bottle at secondary market value. When we say secondary, we’re including those stores in the conversation as well.
Josh, let Erin speak😂
A smile from time to time may be beneficial.
We never smile. It shows weakness.
A little more light
We’ve standardized our brightness to fall in line with tv shows and movies for television viewers now. We noticed that we used to looked like glowing aliens on television sets with as bright as our old settings were.
This admittedly takes us out of the camp of the typical overly lit UA-cam look of most channels, but it looks perfect on televisions and fits the vibe we want for the studio.
If things look darker than normal on mobile devices or computer screens, a simple brightness adjustment should be a quick fix.
Drink what you love, and love what you drink. No judgement here... Just enjoying the journey...
I agree with your comments on the secondary market. No retailer (physical store or online) wants to invest in inventory only to watch it collect dust on the shelf because their price is too high. That’s a “going out of business strategy” for sure. Where I live the state sets a minimum shelf price for every single bottle sold in the state . Retailers are free to go higher, but not lower. They also decide (through their contracted distributors) product availability, which seem to me, is quite poor. I think that the best thing that could happen would be to eliminate government interference in the liquor market completely and let supply and demand set the price. Of course that isn’t going to happen. They (the state) make far too much money under the current system.
Very well said Mark. The three-tier system is a broken system that causes more problems than it solves IMO.
The secondary market hurts everyone in the long term. It leads to things like distilleries adjusting prices upwards, see WT generations as an example.
While I do see your point, I’m not sure I can fully agree. Some distilleries will price things wildly no matter what, but the market will only bear what people are willing to pay at the end of the day.
A good example is Woodford Baccarat vs Generations. Nobody is buying Baccarat at $2,000 as the market has deemed that it’s not worth that, but if every bottle of Generations sells at $450 then is it not worth $450? And is it Campari’s fault for pricing it at $450 or our fault for buying it?
Agree Buffalo Trace is good not excellent but it is cheap
Josh your channel is a thousand times better since you loosened up!
Here's to 2024!
New lighting too, it looks like. It's so *dark* - it's like half your light bulbs burned just before you turned the camera on.
Now watch - I'll be the only one who doesn't like the lighting. 😂
My palate has changed some, but with only two years experience I suspect it's mostly just getting better at evaluating whiskey. I do know that some of what I like is wheated - I think particularly of Larceny and Rebel 100.
2:55 I've come to think that overall, Buffalo Trace juice is okay, but nothing all that special. I like what I've had okay, but it's not worth the high secondary prices, or the trouble it takes to find it.
5:12 I can't afford secondary prices. 🙂 And there's so much out there that I can afford, is always available, and tastes fantastic, that it doesn't bother me that I can't afford secondary bottles. But if someone wants to spend his time, energy, and money on it, it's his time, energy, and money.
7:59 The most I've ever paid for a bottle is $58 including tax, and 99.999999% of the time I can't even afford that. But that and the other $50+ bottles I've had were so good, and the more expensive samples I've tasted were so little above that quality, that I frankly doubt that *any* whisky is, solely on the basis of nose, taste, and finish, worth more than $100. Of course scarcity effects price, and so does demand, but I've never tasted anything that I would pay more than $100 for, even if I could afford it.
Are you watching on a mobile device by chance?
There’s a boatload of light in the room. We’ve just standardized our videos for television broadcast standards going forward since the majority of our viewers watch on TVs. If we seem too dark on a mobile device or computer screen, a quick brightness adjustment should fix the issue. If you’re on a TV then everything should look perfect brightness-wise already.
@@stuffandwhiskey It's on my TV, and it's a ton darker than previous videos. We'll see what the next one looks like. 🙂
@@WhiskyForBeginners oh it’s definitely darker than previous videos but only because our skin tone levels in previous videos were off-the-charts bright. Now they’re right in line with broadcast standards (60-70 IRE for Caucasian skin).
We should only appear too dark if the viewer’s screen brightness is too dim.
While we should appear properly exposed, it’s worth noting that the wall behind us is black and fairly minimal, so our overall scene is naturally darker compared to other channels with lighter and brighter sets or a wall of bottles with accent lights behind them. This was intentional on our part as we want our content to feel like viewers are sharing a pour and sharing in a conversation with us in a speakeasy-inspired bar or lounge rather than watching two performers on a screen (because performers we are not).
@@stuffandwhiskey Well, the standards may say it's just, but my Mark I eyeballs tell me that it's terribly dark, and y'all looked just fine before. 🙂
But ok I may stay for the budget finds.
One of my frustrations over the past couple years is with the term "secondary" being used to describe a store that has latitude to price their product (non-control state). Secondary has always been correctly used in conjunction with flippers. And in my experience, I don't know anyone who likes the illegal flipping practice. That said, a store in a non-control state selling any product for what the market will bear is just good, old-fashioned capitalism. And for what it's worth, I'm happy to pay a store a fair price above MSRP based on actual market demand for a product. Many of the producers (Buffalo Trace / Sazerac being the most egregious) have kept the MSRPs on their allocated products artificially way too low. They don't make the bulk of their profit off the tiny portion of their portfolios that is rare bourbons. So they don't seem to really care. No company wanted to take the criticism that Jim Beam took for the increases in MSRP on Bookers. But Jim Beam was correctly reading the tea leaves. And therefore we end up in a situation where drinkers say "Stagg is a $50 bourbon because BT says it is." No, no. It's a $150 bourbon every day of the week based on demand for it. If it wasn't good, there'd be no demand.
I think the judgment of paying over MSRP needs to chill out. It's not a reality anymore to find many of these products at MSRP in states like Texas or Tennessee. And I'd rather see the small store owners get some added profit than to see it go to flippers. Just my opinion.
Really great comment Tom and we couldn’t agree more with all of it. Conversationally speaking it can be easy to miss nuance, especially when we don’t script our videos, but you really nailed what I feel here.
And I do hear you on using the term “secondary” to describe “the price the market will bear based on supply and demand.” I’m certainly guilty of taking the easy way out and using that single word instead of the more accurate phrase. I’m not a fan of flippers and don’t mess with national secondary. At most, my friends and I may help each other find bottles from time to time, but that’s vastly different than the issues on the market of stores backdooring bottles and individuals making money reselling en masse.
@@stuffandwhiskey Exactly. I think you well described the nuance in your video with how you described it. I think my biggest frustration is facing criticism in social media and forums for spending more than MSRP. There is some sort of weird tribal rule that doing so is an excommunicatable offense. I adore you guys. I'm also an unfortunate fan of Stagg and have been since it was far more available. :)
Never bought in secondary but 2024 I'm willing to buy Weller antique for 130🌮 😅 because I never find it for msrp and I'm tired of waiting. Cheers 🥃
Cheers and thanks for watching! If you can find it for sale for $130 and are happy to pay it then we'll be the first to say congrats!
Thumbs up with the secondary opinion. And the price opinion. Cheap whiskey sucks 😃 I’m joking, but this is America and you can do with you want with your money. I’m the same. I’m not looking for a whiskey I can buy by the gallon. And my personal taste skews to the $75 and up whiskeys.
First Excellent video with great content.
Second welcome back to capitalism
Third for the new series please get a bottle of wheel horse cigar blend. A 35 to 42 bottle cigar blend needs reviewed!
Thanks Tim! And we didn't even know Wheel Horse had a cigar blend. We'll definitely be on the lookout for it!
I've been watching from the beginning. Enjoy the non professional taster approach. Always wonder if your stinky feet and Matt's sour note are the same things. As you continue to evolve your palates, I hope that differentiating great rye and wheated bourbons get equal accounts. I love when you guys extend content to include whisky and whiskeys from anywhere. Looking forward to 2024
You're definitely onto something there! It's like a mildly sweet sourness, and we've also spoken with Matt and connected the dots that when we say something smells like "the outside," it's equivalent to Matt's "bird's nest" note. It's fun figuring out how palates compare and contrast. Cheers and thanks for watching!
Great video as always, but you missed the sixth thing you had wrong this year…. And 2022, and 2021… I’m sure Erin knows what I’m talking about.
#goblue
It's hilarious that this comment got filtered to the "held for review" section of our comments for being potentially inappropriate. We don't disagree with that categorization for that hashtag. 😂 Hats off for playing a strong game against Bama. Cheers Jon!
Ok so why have MSRP if it’s the Wild West out there.
Not sure I'm following. They do have to price it at something. Most businesses raise prices so that supply and demand even out. Buffalo Trace could easily raise their prices to match what stores mark their products up to and solve the issue tomorrow. They won't though, and it's my personally opinion that they enjoy all the hype and hysteria around their brand. Why would they keep prices so low if the market demand is so much higher?
Brave of you to speak your actual thoughts on the secondary market. Its easy to hate it, but its only supply and demand. The price the free market determines IS the real price, regardless of what the manufacturer may suggest.
Secondary is the symptom of the issue, not the cause. I think this confusion is what causes most of the hate. If someone wants to pay a premium price for availability, they should have that option.
We can all agree that most of the pricing is ridiculous, and not worth it, but thats because of low supply and FOMO.
Hope you dont catch too much hate from whiskey tube on this one.
I think it can be an admirable decision to decide that you value your time highly enough to not spend hours and hours hunting for a bottle.
Well said. I've spent hours in my local store each month over the years and that's time I could've been home with my family with zero guarantee as to what "nice" bottles I might get thrown my way by the store owner. Others choose to camp out overnight or for multiple days to get prized bottles, still with no guarantee as to what they'll get. Oooooor would could simply buy exactly what they want if they're willing to pay for it. I used to have a hardline stance against that, but am certainly now more in the "to each their own" camp. Cheers and thanks for watching!
I love setting across the table with you both
We're happy to have you! Cheers Tim!
In this video Josh mentioned it's a "bar top" - but it looks more like a table.
I wouldn't mind if it *did* look more like a bar top. Or had a little more character to it to contribute to the ambiance of the background. There's another popular channel that does reviews at a tabletop but the tabletop has a rustic, wood grain that adds another visual element that supports the atmosphere of the rest of the room.
@@BeThereAgain_BestServedNeat we hear ya and know what you mean, but we like our cleaner mid-century modern walnut over the rustic barn wood look.
Picture is really dark.
We’ve standardized our brightness to fall in line with tv shows and movies for television viewers now. We noticed that we used to looked like glowing aliens on television sets with as bright as our old settings were.
This admittedly takes us out of the camp of the typical overly lit UA-cam look of most channels, but it looks perfect on televisions and fits the vibe we want for the studio.
If things look darker than normal on mobile devices or computer screens, a simple brightness adjustment should be a quick fix.
I see you are keeping the electric bill down to expand the fun money account 😂 🕯️
We’re standardizing our brightness to fall in line with tv shows and movies for television viewers now. We noticed that we used to looked like glowing aliens on television sets with as bright as our old settings were.
This admittedly takes us out of the camp of the typical overly lit UA-cam look of most channels, but it’s what we want the vibe of the studio to feel like and looks perfect on televisions. A simple brightness adjustment should be all you need if you’re on a mobile device or laptop and things look darker than usual.
very old barton 100 proof is the way to go..under 20 dollars
Buffalo Trace is good at MSRP but not more. There are a lot of bourbons available at $50 that are a lot better than BT. Which, as you did, leads to the secondary market - I'm all for it. If people can sell highly sought after bottles for a nice profit then more power to them. However, I will not participate, again standard BT is not worth $50 to me but it might be for someone else.
At some random point in the future can you do a video in your dining room (wasn't that where you used to record?) and use the old scoring system? Just for the fun of it and to make people think they're watching an old video 😂.
If it didn’t take 2-3 hours of setup vs 2-3 minutes in the studio then we would. That said, we did get some wireless mics recently and intend on broadening the scope of content we release from time to time so you never know when the kitchen scene will make a reappearance in a different style of video. 😉
@@stuffandwhiskey Fair point on the setup part. However...I recommend you consider it as a reason to get more gear!!! 🤣
@@jeffreyjennings1640 brilliant!
I love WA107. I’ll give you $20 per bottle plus pay shipping to Bama for all you have…😉
The funny thing is that it used to sit on shelves collecting dust at $20-30 a bottle just 10-15 years ago because so few people liked it back then. Funny how limited supply mixed with hype can change things.
I appreciate the fact that stuff is there and you can choose to pay a huge markup at these stores… But when it’s every single store within a couple hours from me… It’s BS they’re all Indian or middle eastern owned and they are all greedy every single one has weller for 300$…
Josh here. My brother in law is Jordanian and he’d tell you that smart business is charging fair market value, and selling for anything less than that is bad business. He’s not in the liquor industry but he’d never sell a vehicle for less than fair market value and he’d never expect to less than fair market value for a vehicle either. As individuals, if we owned something that was in demand, we’d never sell it for less than what it was worth, yet we don’t view whiskey through the same lens. The bourbon boom has made whiskey an in-demand luxury product in many cases and until consumers stop paying then little is likely to change.
Im glad to know you both before entering witness protection.😂 #cantseeyourfaces #sodark
Are you on a television or mobile device by chance?
We normally watch UA-cam on mobile devices so we only recently caught this with our own content, but we noticed that we've looked like glowing aliens on television sets for the last two years because our settings were so bright.
By the metrics, the majority of our viewership watches on television sets rather than mobile devices, so we made the switch to standardize for television broadcast standards since it's a lot harder to quickly and easily adjust a television's brightness level as a viewer. This does mean mobile viewers may need to make a quick brightness level adjustment for things to look right however (especially if watching in a space where bright light is hitting the screen directly and washing out all of the shadow detail).
By editing our content such that our skin tone values and brightness levels are within broadcast standards, given the appropriate screen brightness levels on the viewer side of the equation, we should look like we actually do in real life now (rather than the glowing apparitions we've appeared to be for so long to our television viewers 😂).
Guess it may be time for me to move on to another channel. Weller and Maker’s forever! Secondary market never!
Josh here. We're actually Maker's fans, and we don't dislike Weller. We just have a preference toward rye-based bourbons over wheaters. And for clarification purposes, we don't love or support secondary market flippers, and we never sell anything ourselves. We're speaking more to the prices that the secondary market has bolstered, whether that be on the secondary market itself or in stores that mark products up. It's a matter of opportunity cost for me, as I don't have the time to spend hours away from my family or job bourbon hunting, and it costs a bunch of money to "build a relationship" with a local store just in hopes of getting bottles--doing the math on that has shown us that we're far better off skipping the "relationship building" and simply paying a premium for the exact bottle we want. Hope that helps to clarify. Using the word "secondary" to describe the free market value of a bottle was definitely an oversight on my part.
I refuse to participate in the secondary market. I see allocated products as a marketing approach that can allow a distiller to sell half the product for the same amount of revenue. It's about creating the perception of a unicorn product. There are so many good, reasonably priced bourbons on the shelf that I don't have the need to chase down unicorn products. If you want to do that, knock yourself out. You'll be happy to know I won't be competing with you.
Josh, I love you man, but I can't follow you on your evolved thoughts on the secondary market. Another channel talked about this topic and came in with a more nuanced answer which I agree with and which you touched on on in this video. Private individuals trying to find that special bottle and willing to be the fool to part with their money. I have no blame for them. They exist and I could be one of them in the future. Someone trying to re-remember their dad's fondness for a specific bourbon and realizing they'd rather spend the money instead of their time to find a bottle after month's of searching for example.
Scalpers that buy up allocated bourbon, (PS5's, high end video cards) do not add value to the system and are parasites that exacerbate existing scarcity. They are the reason WHY scarcity goes from hard to find to impossible to find with the added bonus of insane prices when you do. I have NO LOVE for such people and they, bless their hearts, tend to use the argument you made in this video to justify their existence, to try and scratch out a moral high ground where none exists.
To my mind, the $200 Four Gate vs $200 Stagg Jr. argument is a red herring and a cart before the horse argument. If anything, if Stagg Jr was readily available for $60 on shelves, or even just available for $60 (but hard to find), everyone would be looking at Four Gate and wondering how they could justify asking for $200 for something that is inferior? This is NOT an example of a market correcting itself. It's a sign of an unhealthy market that doesn't have mechanisms in place to prevent market manipulators from fleecing the system.
What if I bought all the rice and wheat in California and decided to sell it at triple the price to the rest of the US? Does that mean the market corrected itself? If I sell it to that one person in South America who wishes to remember that special rice taste from the US, did I add value to the system?
While I hear you, I'd counter that your rice and wheat example is as much a red herring as my Stagg example. Nobody is buying *all* of the Stagg just like nobody is buying *all* of the rice and wheat, but there is a LOT more rice and wheat out there than there is Stagg, so nobody is going to buy all of it anyway in an attempt to create artificial scarcity.
There is actual scarcity in allocated bourbon. Supply is low and demand is high on Stagg, many other Buffalo Trace products, and allocated bourbon in general. Buffalo Trace and others could easily raise their prices to level things out--as most businesses do--but they won't (because I believe Buffalo Trade enjoys the hype and hysteria around their products... but that's pure speculation on my part).
I'd also say that it's less about "willing to be the fool to part with their money" and far more about valuing one's own time. Personally speaking, I have a wife and daughter that I value spending time with far more than I value spending time in liquor stores or camping outside of liquor stores. I could spend hours away from my family going to multiple stores, asking around, hunting left and right, camping out, etc just in hopes of finding a Stagg at suggested retail at the cost of a ton of my own personal time just to brag about paying $60-100 for a Stagg... or I could pay $200-250 and have one in less than 15 minutes at a "museum store" or secondary is so inclined. I personally 1) dislike bourbon hunting, and 2) value the time with my family FAR more. This realization is what changed my stance.
I think where the real nuance comes in is in knowing exactly which products you *are* willing to pay a premium for. They are extremely few and far between for me, as I'm not trying to build a collection or secure every release. I do know the bottles I truly enough, though, and what I'm willing to pay for those. Secondary market pricing can certainly become predatory when someone doesn't know what they truly enjoy and gets taken advantage of, but that does call back to the "buyer beware" adage.
@@stuffandwhiskey the argument you are making are focused around personal decisions about how to spend one's time and money and how to react to a given market as it stands. And I'm not trying to refute any of that logic. Honestly, I regret the fool and money reference that you pointed out.
The rice and wheat example is getting misunderstood here. California alone does not contain the worlds rice and wheat, just a portion. Buying it all whether as an individual or group I would argue is similar insofar as scalpers are buying a portion of the available Stagg. One does NOT need to buy everything to enact changes to market behavior. And this would be the case whether there is existing scarcity or not. Instead of rice, I could have mentioned coffee beans or vanilla pods which ARE experiencing rising prices due to scarcity.
My point was not in regards to personal decisions about time and money and how to spend them which is what your 3rd /4th paragraphs focus on. Again, NO DISAGREEMENT.
It's the other side of the equation that I find untenable. If you are talking about micro-economics, personal choices, I'm talking about macro-economics, the ability to alter market forces artificially. I'd have to go digging around for sources way back in my college econ classes, but you would be shocked how little you'd need to buy out (we're talking single digit percentage points) of a given market of products to impact market behavior, and this is only made easier BECAUSE there is existing scarcity.
It's easier when there is one person to blame because that is a clear cut case of bad acting. It's harder when it's a disparate group of people acting on their own. But it doesn't have to be some secret cabal for the rest of us to assign scalpers with a Scarlet Letter, or more ideally, laws with some teeth to back it up.
Finally, if scalpers are able to command $200 for Stagg, does that mean that Sazerac is leaving money on the table? Is that what I'm understanding when you say "they could easily raise their prices to level things out"...?
@@eviltrain24 great reply. And yes to the last part about Sazerac leaving money on the table.
I expounded on the personal reasonings in my previous reply as that’s a huge part of my personal shift on this matter, and in hindsight I should’ve included those points in this video for clarity’s sake.
@@stuffandwhiskeyyour 100% on point here 👊. Great summary.
It's just alcohol, man. Paying secondary market prices, to me, says that the person is more in love with the hunt and showing it off to guests, than the liquid in the bottle. God, and especially bourbon! It's not like it's scotch, with the incredibly wider range of flavours available.
A ten to twelve year bourbon selling for more than a 25 year imported scotch is just bananas in my opinion. I'm glad a lot of american's hate peat.
@@markcalhoun8219 I love peated scotch so much. Americans in general, just have a higher tolerance/love affair for sugar I think, which is why it's hard for a lot of them to get their heads around peat, leather and iodine. Paying stupid money for bourbon, is really a manifestation of nerdy guys and bourbon bros showing off their collections, because too often, those bottles drink like a $40 bottle. They just have to have it and the cycle continues.
Josh here. As a counterpoint, I absolutely hate bourbon hunting personally, I don't care about showing off at all (99.9% of our bottles are in closed cabinetry that no one ever sees), and I place a very high value on my time with my family.
With that said, I have two options to get certain bottles. I can 1) leave my wife and daughter at home for hours and hours on end while I visit multiple liquor stores, wait in lines, build relationships, camp out overnight for drops, etc just in hopes of getting bottles I want, or 2) spend my free time with my family and simply pay a premium to get the exact bottle(s) I want.
I'm personally value the time with my family more than I enjoy hunting bourbon, so it's an easy call for me. This realization is where the shift in perspective has come from. You're obviously free to disagree, and to each their own, but I can only speak to my own preferences.
@@stuffandwhiskey the main issue isn't people who will just pay whatever the cost... giant pocketbooks have historically always ended up with the goods. The secondary market is more a holistic issue across all markets. It shows up everywhere... people buyout all the glade plugins in Oct/Nov to upcharge 6x msrp for Christmas time. There's enough to go around if only the actual consumers were buying but there's inadequate supply once speculators move into a market as they only need to move 15-20% of their inventory to break even. Few markets can absorb a 5-6x increase in speculative demand. Unfortunately individuals can do little to address the issue. It has to be addressed at the retail level.
107 is a great whiskey. So is makers. Disagree.
We didn't say they weren't great. We just said they weren't our favorites. The beautiful thing is that tastes differ. Some people love tacos and hate hamburgers and vice versa. If we all loved the same thing the world would be a pretty boring place.
With enough views .. any bottle can be justifiably purchased by most whiskeytubers. Just don't be blasting George T's your back yard with a shotgun and most ppl won't hold any negative opinions on it.
If only people watched our videos like that. 😂 ISO Brewzle bucks. 👀
I disagree with you on the secondary market. Not only does it not benefit the distillery but it truly limits who can get these bottles. And it’s alcohol and it’s greedy people taking advantage of people that are seriously suffering from FOMO. Which is a thing. I consider myself lucky I live in a state that is a controlled state so no bottle will ever be over msrp yes there are bottles that are high priced but the sales are beneficial to the distillery. Currently in my local liquor store they have Hardin creek all three bottles and two Boss hog bottles that have been sitting for weeks. If you’re able to spend what they are asking great but I just can’t justify paying more than 150 for a single bottle. The other things are understandable things do and can change usually for the best. Hope you have a wonderful New Year. Enjoy!!
Josh here. I hear you, but I don't think I can fully agree on it truly limiting who can get the bottles. They're either going to be limited by 1) demand, or 2) price.
At suggested retail, only a few lucky folks who can hunt bourbon nonstop or get flat out lucky are going to get those bottles.
Meanwhile, there are "museum stores" where every single Buffalo Trace Antique Collection and Pappy Van Winkle bottle is available right now. If so inclined, someone could go buy them right now. I'd argue that these are far more available than the lucky few who happen to get something in a raffle or be in a "right place at the right time" situation, mainly because I've tried to go that route myself and struck out over and over again. It's all personal preference of course, but I'd personally rather spend my time these days with my wife and daughter than I would trying to get lucky in a liquor store, and if that means paying a premium for the bottles I know I want then so be it. I can't personally rationalize the time away from my family anymore, and there are only a select few bottles I'm actually willing to pay a premium for, so it's very little extra money out of my pocket anyway (I'm actually saving money by not constantly going to stores and buying other things).
@@stuffandwhiskey I’m just saying there are individuals who love bourbon that can’t afford to buy a specific bottle on the secondary market if they like let’s say a president reserve single barrel that is at best a 35 bottle and it’s going for 300 that is way out of reach. And I’ve seen these going for that. Pappy is between 500-3000. Is the market slowing down it seems to be but I just have issues with people getting bottles in my state that are MSRP then flipping them for hundreds of dollars. It’s frustrating for us that are just trying to get a bottle of stagg and can’t because of flippers. And stagg in Ohio is 65 on secondary they are between 250-800.
@@umami0247 I don’t disagree with any of that, but out of curiosity, do you realistically spend enough time in liquor stores that you’d be in the right place at the right time to get a rare bottle at suggested retail over someone else with more free time who would immediately buy it?
I don’t know your answer. It may be yes. I just know I don’t have that kind of time.
I think the idea that only charging suggested retail = more people getting bottles is a bit of a straw man because there aren’t more bottles to go around. It just means different people would get the few bottles that are out there (those with an abundance of free time and lack of personal obligations as opposed to those with extra income).
Love you guys, but you got a thumbs down with your secondary market comments. The secondary market dances on the edge of being criminal and sits squarely on the chair of corruption by falsely restricting supply far beyond demand and production capacity. The secondary market is greed, period.
Like it or not, the secondary market exists. Best to acknowledge it.
Whether they should openly admit to using it is up to that person but at least they are being transparent about it.
@raygray2876 and @javieracosta3439 there are also plenty of stores that sell at marked up "secondary" prices completely legally. Those stores often get named and shamed within the whiskey community, but I've been crunching numbers lately. I've spent far more building relationships at my local store over the last few years and gotten far fewer "nice" bottles by doing so compared to simply dropping into a "museum" store that charges secondary prices and buying the entire BTAC lineup in one afternoon. Just some food for thought and basis behind the opinion.
I’m not one of these folks that has the schedule availability to show up at the store within 30 minutes to receive my MSRP bottle of Stagg (or whatever allocated bottle you’re into), so I agree with them that I appreciate the availability if I want to shell out the cash. This isn’t communism where everyone that gets in line first gets a bottle. This is capitalism. You can call it greed or competition or whatever you want, but principles of supply and demand will say that if everyone wants Stagg, it’ll probably go up in price. And to be clear, I haven’t ever bought a bottle of Stagg in my life. I’ve had it in a restaurant, and it was delicious imo, but I don’t think it’s worth more than like $100 when I can buy ECBP for like $75.
@@stuffandwhiskey yeah, I should have phrased it as "if you want to pay that amount, secondary or store markup, it's totally up to the buyer"
If not for these secondary markets, many a UA-cam channel would just be reviewing Evan Williams bottled in bond to death. And what fun is that?
If the price were allowed to fluctuate with demand like with other commodities, the price would be higher, bottles would be more readily available, and mostly eliminate the secondary market. Unfortunately, the current system does not allow for this type of pricing. This would likely enrage some who are able to hunt at any time and have to pay above current MSRP. The current MSRP for given supply is what is creating most of the current problem. People currently able to get Blantons at MSRP would be angry at paying over $100, but it would be more readily available and cheaper than secondary for those who really want a bottle.
Whoa, entirely glossed over the fact that private party transactions involving alcohol on the "secondary" market are ILLEGAL... So you're more or less advocating that people should break the law.
I don't agree with the law, I think a lot of things should be changed, I think that more legal avenues to b/s/t liquor would be beneficial and lower prices on allocated products, but I won"t advocate for people to participate in an illegal black market. That you would do so on a public platform is shocking.
There are plenty of stores that sell at "secondary" prices. Lately we've seen them called "museum" stores by a lot of folks and even some other channels. In what I've spent on random bottles over the last year or two, I could have easily gone to one of these "museum" stores and bought the entire Buffalo Trace Antique Collection lineup in one afternoon. Just some food for thought and the basis behind the opinion.
@@stuffandwhiskey Nice deflection, but that's not at all how it came across in the video bro. I'm not some newb who doesn't understand retail "museum" stores who price gouge. Many others here in the comments clearly interpreted it the same way the same way as I did. Maybe you should just own the mistake.
@@inkynate9372 it’s not some silly game of gotcha. Later in the talking point I literally talked about stores with marked up prices. Relax.
@@stuffandwhiskey Guess you`re not going to take the feedback then, wow. Disappointing.
@@inkynate9372 I expounded upon my point both here and extensively in other replies as well. Not sure what else you want.
You’re free to disagree with my opinion all you want, but me changing my opinion to fit yours doesn’t mean I’m not taking the feedback. It just means we disagree. And that’s okay.
Sorry but giving this 1 a thumbs down too much rambling around your points.
Conversations are kinda the point of our videos. 😂 We’re definitely not a UA-cam Shorts channel if you’re looking for the quick content. 2024 were skewing more toward this conversational approach as it’s the kind of content we enjoy making most. Totally cool if that’s not for you. Cheers and all the best.