Hey, a bunch of new people have been finding this year old video. Maybe because of the reboot, idk. I do not care if you still love Frasier. I personally think "I hate my wife" jokes were boring and passé even by the time the earliest episodes of Frasier aired, but if those kind of jokes are your particular brand of jangling keys, go with God. In fact, I made a whole video about loving problematic media, check it out: ua-cam.com/video/gGYjoUZq3z4/v-deo.html
“I personally think “I hate my wife jokes” are boring” As opposed to going “erm, so thats a thing” and saying fuckwaffle? Which is the crux of your humor. Also why do we have to enjoy problematic shows in the context of them being problematic? Who decides this is problematic? Is there a council of approved media? Whats non-problematic? There are many progressive novelists like Virginia Woolf who had problematic opinions, there are problematic novelists like Tolkien who wrote progressive novels. It just is used as a vehicle to decry the meta aspects of a work, to then hold up something made by terrible people. Look at the backlash against Licorice Pizza versus the fawning love for Marvel films. Americans dont comprehend that most fiction is not a morality play. Why should we enjoy something on the context of its morality if its express purpose is that it’s a show for grown adults who should know better? You cant be stupid enough to not know time is linear, right?
@@hootsyoutubeare you geniunely autistic or do you not comprehend the idea of metaphor, simile, comparison or hyberbole? The entire sense of humor of this video and of your replies in the comment is twee, flippant regurgitations of 2019 reddit/marvel humor. Do you just not view similar things as the same? “Homie, my guy, you totes did an unepic waffle bacon with this comment bro. Thumbs down”
I’ve noticed that a lot of people who defend it spell it “Frazier”, like they’ve never actually seen the show and are pretending to be fans because they think it’s anti-woke or whatever.
I would like to suggest that you are not a terrible person for laughing at a few sexist jokes. It genuinely can be difficult to gauge levels of irony off of a few jokes, and comedy comes from the unexpected and subversion of expectation right? Sometimes when you can clearly see it, the idea that the joke itself is obnoxious or hugely outdated is the funny part, but setting and context is important. The more someone relies on it, the more apparent instead of a "wow society has come a long way from women being called chicks" has become (or always was) "oh God, you are nostalgic for days when women were subservient to men and you think it is funny if women are put in their place".
As in most cases, it all depends on context, right? The problem with most sexist/racist/transphobic/homophobic jokes is that *_THEY'RE JUST NOT FUNNY_* . That's at least why _I_ don't like lame jokes such as those barfed up by Ricky Gervais or Dave Chapelle. Because they're lazy and just not funny. However, as a Jew, I have received ancient wisdom, passed down to me, traveling on a long, sacred line of tradition; bequeathed unto me from my parents, their parents, and their parents before them: _if you can't laugh at yourself, you're fucked_ (and frankly not very fun at parties).
@@justin___ Oh I absolutely agree with that. Chapelle is a great example actually because all his trans jokes are just lowest common denominator and unfunny. When I tried to watch the special I didn't know he went after trans people, and as a non-binary person I laughed at a few of the joke, but the more it went on, the worse it got. It was clear he didn't actually know stuff about queer culture or anything like that. Like if the executive trans-woman slammed a jar of pickles on the table it would be hilarious, but he went for shock value and didn't think it through.
I think that aspect of subversion is important sometimes shity things can be funny but not because they're naturally funny but because shity people actually believe them. However this clearly come from a place of privilege because I'm a straight white male. I have experienced this in the reverse. I happen to have cerebral palsy which leaves me in a wheelchair. With that being said. it's not too funny to me that people think they're smarter than me by nature of not being in a wheelchair. However I've been in situations where a mutual person knows me and the other person making fun of me and may find it hilarious because they have an understanding that I'm much more intelligent than the person making fun of me. Therefore laughing at their pathetic attempt to make themselves feel better. I can certainly see the humor in that. I really hope that makes sense and I didn't butcher what I was trying to say. I think what I'm trying to say. is it's like laughing at how unaware said person can be. Although it comes with a huge caveat of having the luxury not being a part of the marginalized group that's being targeted.
“Growing the beard” is actually a reference to Commander Riker growing his beard for season two of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Season two is where Riker and the other cast members start settling comfortably into their roles and the writers start developing their characters independent of homages to the original 1960s Star Trek series.
@@ADHDtjds9 was great from the start it had the episode Duet in the first season even if there were some bad ones like that one with the alien board game. Compared to Season 1 TNG it was high art.
@@tomstokoe5660 it deffo got way better from about s3 or s4, duet is nice (n so r some others fro. The early run) but most of it its still finding its feet. Tng also hsd episodes like "the measure of a man" in its early run, similar to duet in being outlier high quality episodes. I will grant, it was worse in tng
His r*** trial? The grand jury wouldn't even indict him. Getting an indictment is usually a rubber stamp. So it isn't his r*** trial. It is a baseless accusation.
I cant believe a guy was accused, went thru due process, was found innocent and then didnt have his life ruined You guys are all for rehabilative justice (sorry for spelling) and taking mental healthcand drug abuse seriously, until a guy who was strung up on 50 different drugs is accused of commiting a crime likely while under the influence after having yknow buried his own sister
@@maydaymemer4660 we all know due process is only so effective as public perception allows it to be. By your logic OJ was innocent too since he was found not guilty by a jury of his peers. But what are you implying about 50 drugs and sisters? Doesn’t seem relevant. Who are you talking about and what therefore are you conflating
Frasier is based in British comedy tradition in which the protagonist is rarely rooted for, and would be a villain in most other contexts. Edmund Blackadder is a perfect example of this. He is a conniving weasel but also always fails. Seeing himself a brilliant mastermind with being cowardly and incompetent in reality. The comedy comes from the juxtaposition of his inflated self-image and reality, just like Frasier.
It was a callback to that classic scene from Cheers, but the hosts of this awful video are too ignorant to know that. That doesn't stop them from going on and on about how much they know about the '90s, however. 🙄
Growing the beard refers to Riker, not Sisko... This must be an ingeniously subtle way to get more people to comment on your video by making a Trek error because this is like the third comment I've made on a youtube video in a decade.
I know this is old, but it isn't really wrong, in that the actor that played Sisko was required to shave his beard and grow out his hair because the show runners were worried about Hawk being a Starfleet officer. When he was allowed to get his bald head and goatee back, and he got a starship, the show really fired on all cylinders. You could easily interpret 'growing the beard' as a reference to DS9 without ever touching the TNG fandom. The two were very different shows.
@patrickstonetree1 You're saying it's commonly thought that DS9 only took off at the end of season 3? I dunno man. I don't think that's a commonly held belief, most people think the early seasons of DS9 are as good as the latter seasons and there isn't nearly as big a gap in quality as TNG early seasons and later seasons.
As a former private duty nurse, Frasier's expectation of Daphne to also be the housemaid (aka "chief cook and bottle washer") in addition to her ACTUAL (and literally her only REQUIRED JOB DESCRIPTION) of being a physical therapist to his dad, was sadly not much different than the expectations of many home health and private duty nurses today---from the families AND from the agencies that employ the healthcare workers. I recall being told that doing household chores like washing baby bottles (I worked with PED patients), folding and putting away laundry, and even tidying up the child's room all fell within the "expected duties" of a home health/private duty nurse for their agency----and I didn't even live with the family. When you provide any kind of service for an individual and/or their family member in their own home, the lines of employee vs. familiar are all too often blurred, but only at the convenience of those being provided the service. Whether intentional or not, the sentiment of "we're a big family here" or "you're like family to us" often becomes an emotional manipulation to exploit the worker providing a service to a family. I've even had instructors (in nursing school) tell the class that "in the (nursing) profession, you will be expected to wear 'many hats' in addition to that of nurse". Although at the time it was accompanied by an amusing anecdote of when she would occasionally help patients "wrangle chickens" back when she was a "lowly" home health LVN (her implication, not mine. Despite having started as an LPN, she was what's known in the biz as a 'degree snob' who loved to downplay the knowledge and field experience of LPNs in favor of the so-called 'holy grail' hospital BSNs, but that's a different story for another day, lol).
Please tell me more! I have a home health nurse for my foot and I do everything I can to get her job done quickly I even get all items in one spot next to trash van with scissors and thank her for the smallest thing because I don't want to bother her
This was fantastic. I love how y'all called out how the "peace and prosperity" of the 90s was illusory. As an elder millennial that's something I haven't examined or confronted enough.
I've long said that the 90's is when pain was outsourced to the rest of the world. It was like we were drifting along in a narcotic beige haze, where nothing could go wrong. It's precisely why I hate centrist politics, because that's the decade they all look to for inspiration.
I feel obligated to bring this up every time it's mentioned, Arendt's depiction of Eichmann was completely incorrect she only watched the first few days of the trial and did not see later evidence or for that matter him breaking under cross-examination. Eichmann was not some pencil Pusher he was one of the chief architects of the Holocaust and did it out of a fervent hatred of Jewish people. Basically she fell for his defense.
This video slapped me across the face with melancholy. The Kelsey Grammer assaulting a child before Fraiser started airing, the realization Clarence Fucking Thomas is still on the Supreme Court and was instrumental in taking away reproductive rights, the Lupe Velez story...it's all so heartbreaking.
You mean granting basic human/civil rights (or at least taking a step in that direction) towards unborn children. You know the segregationists were "pro-choice" too. For example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation_academy
A couple of things from a Gen Xer who watched the show in it's original run. 1. It was still better than other shows, which is terrible. 2. It was remarkable progressive to gay men 3. the 90s were remarkable self satisfied 4. I didn't know that about Kelsey Grammer 5. thanks for the perspective. Hugs.
I’m a millennial and watched it as a kid/teenager during and shortly after it’s original run. I didn’t notice any of the ‘problematic’ things at the time as I was young and back then it was everywhere, but having rewatched this and other shows from that era recently, I can say for certain that while certainly not perfect, the show holds up an awful lot better than many other shows. I don’t know why these video makers have such a grievance with it. Some of it is absolutely fair comment but other stuff seems completely extreme. ‘The banality of Frasier’ holocaust comment is completely offensive to be honest.
@@lynottlives I mean, you could watch the video an see why the video makers have a grievance with it. That its the best of a bad bunch doesn't make the criticisms of it invalid. If they don't bother you, that might just be because you're not the target of the worst of the offenses.
Incredible internet comment since lost in time: "If Happy Days jumped the shark and Star Trek grew a beard, can we say Doctor Who face-fucked the pavement?"
@@Thehouseoffail There was an episode during the Tennant era that was fan submitted. The episode was about a group of people who've all encountered the Doctor bonding over this shared experience and trying to find the Doctor again. They end up in a fight against an alien that infiltrated their ranks and one woman who is in a romantic relationship with our viewpoint character in the group ends up as a face in a concrete slab. The conclusion of the episode is the viewpoint character talking to the camera about the fallout of that fight, introducing his girlfriend in her face-slab form, and commenting that they still have a lovelife, which can only really mean he facefucks the concrete slab.
@@h00pla434 that was an incredibly WILD ride but I was still not prepared for the statement “which can only really mean he facefucks the concrete slab.” 💀
Just finished watching José's video about Frasier. It was really well made, just as this was, and it made very clear something that's dangerous about UA-cam and UA-cam essayists. Frankly, you guys are good. Very, very good and very convincing. And had I watched this video, without his, I'd have a very strong (very catered) opinion on Frasier. Had I watched José's without this video, would have a similar (but opposite) very strong opinion (very catered). Point being: be careful what you watch. Just because it's very convincing doesn't mean there isn't another very convincing counter-argument. Don't fall into the warm, fluffy arms of confirmation bias. Give each opinion their due. More likely than not, you'll not agree with either whole-heartedly anymore, but have a more nuanced, more accurate, more fulfilling, and frankly for satisfying opinion. I always try to keep my mind open, but I'll try even harder to make sure I'm not bumping around in a bubble, as it were. Cross-Posted on José's video.
Thanks for writing that! I was at first somewhat peeved with this video as I had vague but very fond memories of the show, but it's important to discover and point out flaws from time to time. Even in the things we (used to) like. You're so right! Your comment made me realize that not only are video essays very catered towards a certain position, but I/users more often then not only get to see the side we are likely to already agree with from the start. Video's like this are a rare case, directly linking to the "opposing" viewpoint. It also made me realize how sources are often not clearly given or given somewhat half-assed like in this video (sorry...). Maybe it's cherrypicking, but it has always bothered me a lot that video essays, especially those about media, social sciences and philosophical themes, do give of the vibes of academia without providing their refferences prorpely. As someone intrested in all that I want to dig deeper and read more, but citing like (author, year) is just not always enough to be able to do that. Still, better then nothing at all. So, thanks for that again!
11:56 Good thing to note, I was born in the late 90’s. My history classes in public school in the early 2010’s stopped teaching global events in detail just after the Vietnam war. And the Vietnam war was the ONLY thing we learned about for the 1970s. Social history stopped at the civil rights movements of the 1960s. Disregarding that those events carried into the 70s TLDR: my history class taught that history stopped before my mother was born.
Similar thing with my history classes in Canada, circa 2006 or so. For one, in four years of high school, you only had to take one history course, rest were optional. Curriculum for the one non-optional history course also ended in the 1970s for us, with the October Crisis.
David Angell could not have written season 10 episode 12 because he and his wife died in the 9/11 attacks which happened around the start of season 9, he was one of the creators and executive producers of Fraiser Chris Marcil wrote S10E12
Fantastic essay, thank you for not shying away from the heavy topics, for telling the truth. I hope you took some decompression time after this, those moments of peace between confronting these issues keep us going.
Oh hi! You do great work, too! (Thank Fiq i.e. F.D. Signifier for that one.) I love finding more great people & channels thanks to collabs & shout-outs from the great people & channels I watch! Hecc, I only found The Leftist Cooks a scant few months ago, c/o the lovely Jessie Gender (she is so sweet and so smart!). So as for you, Mr. Fox, your comment applies to you, too! Your essay on doing more than just finger-waggling at PUAs and their loyal fans - i.e. giving them info to _help them_ to move away from such creepos, actually offering them more than, "They're wrong, sooo good luck out there!" - was [and still is] _so_ needed, and I hope it continues to get around. Cheers!
fun fact: I'm a woman, and my father named me after Kelsey Grammar. He was going to name his first child after him regardless of what gender I turned out to be, because Kelsey Grammar was his favorite actor, and Frazier was his favorite show.
I love how one can see things so differently, I always saw the dog as the straight man so to speak. Because when he would stare at frasier, I felt like he was staring into his soul and judging him lol maybe that's just me and my custom wired brain… But I always felt the dog knew what was up. For the record, I'm 52 which puts me directly in the middle of generation X, and though I got a late diagnosis in life, I'm also neurodivergent, so I never really quite fit into any of the cultural constructs… Granted, as a young cis male I was definitely Marinated in the indoctrination of "horseshit masculinity"… I just feel like the word "toxic" just doesn't do it justice.. so might take on television shows is probably a typical and com I'm not educated in media studies I was just raised by a TV set. Fortunately, I was raised in what passed for a liberal/feminist household... so both parents worked, and I was raised by a television set. But at least I didn't have to deal with some right wing Christian indoctrination I mean not at home… Lol.
Was not expecting this when coming from Jose’s vid. With regards to stagnating attitudes towards mental illness, they didn’t improve in the next couple of decades: high school friendships dissipated when my brother became ill in the early 2000s; hostile college housemates in the 2010s (behind my back of course, one tried to get me evicted whilst another warned his sister of the crazy).
Palestine? Sorry about the nitpick but the 90's were a time of hope on that front, it was the time of the Oslo accords, when it seemed for a moment that peace might be possible. Today is far worse than the 90's ever were in Palestine.
I remember being confused by Fraiser when I was younger because in my country in ~2004-2007 ish they'd show a lot of Cheers reruns during non-prime time hours so I was familiar with the character but I didn't know he had his own show and didn't understand why so many other tv shows were always referencing HIM so much when he's just one of the dudes on Cheers.
I need to be an ultra Trek nerd here: growing the beard refers to Jonathan Frakes (who played Commander Will Riker) growing a beard in season 2 of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Season 1 was famously awful (unlike DS9 which had a very decent first season) and although Season 2 wasn’t great, it definitely was a turning point to better things for TNG. After Season 3 TNG really settled into its own and then SPAWNED the SPINOFF Star Trek DS9.
Had to stop watching for a min just to check to see if someone pointed this out. That said, Hoot's use is also fine. Can we all just agree that Next Gen really started with S2E9 Measure of a Man?
@@kadmii have you not seen "Datalore", "We'll Always Have Paris", "11001001", "Heart of Glory", or "The Big Goodbye"? :P honestly the only episodes in S1 I'd say were outright _awful_ were the two you mentioned, "Justice", and "Haven", and the rest range from okay to great; season 1 is definitely the weakest season of TNG, but it's still closer to "average" than "awful"
As a middle-aged cis straight Xer I have a lot to learn. I cringe looking back at the things that used to make me laugh and it is because of people like you that I learn more everyday. That Lupe story made me sad and angry but I guess one less person believes the lies about her.
@@zenleeparadise it’s okay to love it, don’t let someone hit you with modern sensibilities. Just enjoy the fantasy of the show, it’s okay for a 90’s show not to reflect modern sensibilities.
Re the coziness of how Eddie makes us feel. New Frazier has a joke where his voice makes a baby fall asleep. I used to use the reruns as something to fall asleep to.
Ayyyyyyyyy Fukuyama. Love a mention of that utter goofball. A lot of bad takes lead back to him and in my comments I had like a dozen people attempting to rehabilitate him mostly by being like "he's since moved away from being a thinly veiled chicago boy, you need to read [one of five of his other books] to get what he was really saying in End of History give it a chance come on bro bro just one more fukuyama book and I swear he won't sound like a neocolonialism apologist"
One of my favorite moments of college was when, in a 3 hour small seminar discussion class where we mostly did a book a week on political theory (and assoc. topics), we were assigned a Fukuyama book one week. Regardless of our usual disagreements, every student in that class was united in dunking on Fukuyama for 3 hours, and it was truly amazing.
I compare Frasier to community a lot bc of the way both were steps in the right direction for gay ppl on n off the camera but both were not great abt women
This made me think more critically about one of my favorite background shows to watch. It's true that no one wants to be Frasier, and I think overall that's kind of the point of the overarching narrative of the show from season to season. He's perpetually alone because he's a bad person underneath the surface of gentility, and the 90's were absolutely rife with all sorts of terrible issues in a ton of shows. That being said I still get a giggle from a lot of the humor on the show, and if you compare it to the show it spun off of they did make progress of a sort (Cheers is so violently anti-woman I can't even watch it tbh). Thanks for the excellent vid, now a subscriber.
i think your interpretation of the show speaks to your own morality, but i think you may misinterpret the intentions of the showrunners. personally i think they were genuinely misogynistic especially considering their decision to continue working with kelsey grammar after the r*** allegation (don’t want my comment deleted.) just some food for thought! edit: i wanted to note i see where you’re coming from, but i think they wanted to criticize the wealthy more than they wanted to criticize sexism.
Imo most of the best shows have main characters you wouldn't really want to be. I think Breaking Bad is the best show of all time, but it who the fuck would want to be Walt? And who would really want to be Tony Soprano? The enjoyment doesn't come from living through them but from following them and I think the same is true with Frasier. You enjoy seeing the smug intellectual guy (a person many of us have met, but one we also see some of ourselves in) face highs and lows
Frasier isn't a bad person. He genuinely wishes to help people and is often self-sacrificing despite his sizeable ego. Frasier just flawed, but his flaws have solid psychological bases, like his inferiority complex fueling his ego and his need of being special driving his want of fame, that simply make him human. That he's so glaringly flawed is what makes him so endearing. Many of the best episodes deal with Frasier's hangups, such as ridiculously composed theme song or his crisis upon getting a lifetime achievement award.
@little hoot: an erratum if you please: the phrase "growing the beard" was actually initially in reference to Will Riker on Star Trek: The Next Generation. In the first season of TNG, Will is clean shaven. The film quality isn't as good, the supporting characters are sometimes a bit flat in their acting, and several of the episodes are just bad (though the introduction of Q is fire because John de Lancie is a god among men). But in the second season, Will gets a chinstrap beard and the series really comes into its own. So while I agree that Sisko with the beard is objectively a better Sisko, I would contend that early DS9 wasn't bad by comparison to later seasons AND that the Ur "growing of the beard" was from The Next Generation just as the Ur jumping of the shark was form Happy Days. But that said, this video was fantastic. It was an excellent takedown of 90's misogyny (that is still so so so prevalent). The tie-in to Roe being overturned and the deeply problematic appointment and continued disgraceful appointment of Clarence Thomas (to say nothing of Amy "Coney Island" Barrett and Brett "I like beer" Kavanaugh) was excellent and an angle I had not previously considered. Thank you, as always, for the excellent quality of the content you create. This was punchy and fun.
Totally minor point but Frasier and Niles are psychiatrists, meaming they have MDs. Psychologists have PhDs. It was more common in generations past for psychiatrists to offer therapy, most these days are primarily trained to manage medications.
Your words toward the end hit me hard. Especially after learning that now women who AREN'T EVEN PREGNANT sometimes can't even get needed medications if they're of child-bearing age because those drugs might harm a fetus. Even if alternative drugs are less effective and riskier to our health. We're in a place now where men are willing to kill us to make sure we act like incubators. It makes me incredibly angry, but it inspires me to be an even more "annoying" feminist. And defend trans rights too.
"Act like incubators". I hate this narrative that pregnant women are just going through the motions because a man put them in this terrible situation. Maybe, just maybe, some pregnant women care a great deal about their unborn child?
It isn't that I "like" Frasier as much as it reminds me of one of my uncles. To the point where even his sister sees it. Ironically, he ended up being deeply in the closet.
This is my hipster comment of the month. I was subscribed to both you and Jose before these vids came out. I watched his first because a.) I never got into any sitcoms and b.) I knew he would give it a charitable read with the good takeaways, educating me on what I missed out on, and c.) I knew you were going to wreck Frazier’s shit. I’m mortified to learn about Lupe and the Kelsey Grammer assault allegations. Keep doing what you’re doing, Hoot. This shit makes the world a better place.
@@thaddeust.thirdiii736 In the comment above, “I prefer my dry, 90s sitcoms to have been performed by child-rapists that got off scott-free.” What a joke, Thaddeus T. Third III. Try another one for us…
I can’t decide what makes me cringe harder: boomer humour, or millennials/gen z struggling with the separation of farce from reality in the most sanctimonious tones possible.
no you literally just dont get farce because youre autistic. youre like the nostalgia critic, when he watches shrek and is like "i dont get why donkey says hes making waffles"@@hootsyoutube
@hootsyoutube no, the point is more nuanced than that: the point is that you literally do not engage with the idea of the show on any deeper level - its influence, its stylistic choices or what it tries to say about its characters. You are the kind of person to watch Blackadder and not understand the character isnt intended as a hero, he like Frasier is intended as a depiction of a specific kind of person in a specific time with a specific upbringing and personality informed by his class and social status. You have superhero movie brain, you need a guy with a white hat and a guy with a black hat to know who the piece of media is designating as who to root for
There's an irony in this vid. They make a comment about how acknowledging a joke is bigoted or 'punching down' within the show doesn't justify the joke. And at the same time, they make a joke about themselves as humorless killjoys for overanalyzing this show. Joking about being humorless doesn't make you not humorless. I watch a lot of breadtube... it matches my social and political beliefs well. But there is a grain of truth to a progressive streak of just shitting on everything, with no room to laugh. This vid is in that vein. Obviously the vid makers are welcome to not like Frasier and to express that feeling. And this comment, while technically negative, actually increases their odds of getting on the algorithm. So. You're welcome. haha
I didn’t joke about being humorless, I actually said I’m not humorless because I’m not! I’m funnier than every man who has ever made an “I hate my wife” joke. Hope this helps!
_Frasier_ wildly vacillates from 'witty-funny' to 'cringe'. There are some episodes I can still laugh at, but the fact that the characters almost never grow gets very old. Kelsey Grammer, OTOH, is a conservative jerk who most likely got away with statutory sexual assault. In the way that I can't watch _Cosby_ or Louis CK, I have issues with KG now. If i ever catch an episode of _Frasier_ , it's one of a few where someone actually learns something. I like the episodes where Lilith and Frasier make peace, for example. But there's no arguing that Grammer is a good dude or that the show isn't mean-spirited part of the time. I think the most ironic line in _Frasier_ is "I'm listening." He very rarely did.
I love how my immediate thought of "The Banality of Frasier" made me think of the "Banality of the Big Bang Theory" then hoots says it like two seconds later. My emotionally abusive and narcissistic boomer mother loved this show and unsurprisingly loves Big Bang Theory. My intellectual but largely absent and passive dad is kind of silent about both. It's a weird dynamic
Oooft this was confronting... I am surprised that with your feelings on the matter, why you would colab with Jose who has such an opposite take to you? I don't write this to be rude, I am genuinely curious because surely with his much larger reach he is committing the very thing your railing against here? Or were you both super shocked when you saw each others videos? It's hard for me to dislike Frasier because I watched it every school day with my mum before school, so it is extremely nostalgia laden for me and I do fall way more in the Jose camp. Maybe after this video has digested a little more the shine will have worn off though. Still, a great (if uncomfortable) video!
@@hootsyoutube of course but it was such a guttural reaction, it doesn't feel like a friendly disagreement 😂 perhaps I'm reading too much in to it aha, I watched them one right after the other and it was a bit of a shock 😂
I thought the exact same thing! I have just watched José‘s Video and wondered why he promoted your video despite the completely different view on the show. But I guess being open for (or even promoting) is what makes José a good guy :)
I think there's a lot of great points here, but I do kind of disagree with the idea that the show "hates women" (quoted for clarity, not to be dismissive). As with any 200+ episode sitcom, the attitudes and presentation are going to vary from episode to episode, from writer to writer from storyline to storyline. Sometimes Niles is an awful lech who's practically stalking Daphne, sometimes he's a well-intentioned romantic who acts as a voice of reason for Frasier. Because of the episode nature of the series, both Niles exist, despite being totally contradictory. So I think there is a bit of selective amnesia which can be done, which I don't think is even necessarily wrong. Like "man that time Niles filmed Daphne while she was asleep sure was shitty and unfunny, but this week he's offering her his coat while they're out on the balcony and really that was such a tiny moment 6 seasons ago." And largely, as much as I don't personally care for it, the Niles & Daphne romance does kind of earn it's pay off after a 2 season-ish arc. Where Niles and Daphne kind of end up finding each other in a way. It's such a strange aspect of episodic television. That moments and episodes do just exist within their own context a lot of the time. Then there's the fact that all the jokes about Lilith when she's not a guest star, are all just kind of trashing on her and making her sound horrible (which I suppose in the first season is at least somewhat understandable as they're recently divorced). But when she IS on camera (largely because her episodes are written by Ken Levine and David Isaacs who LOVE Lilith) she's sympathetic, and smart, and sometimes sensual. And Daphne and Martin just seem irrational for hating her so much. Marris is never on-screen, but my personal feeling on the subject (that no one needs to agree with me on obviously) is that Maris is such a broadly-drawn absurdist cartoon that it's hard to even see her as human. Julia is just... a bad character in almost every respect. And largely the horrible way she gets treated in season 11 is because the season 11 writers (who had been the season 7 writers and left to make another show or something before returning) hated the last half of season 10 and wanted to wipe it out from existence basically. That's why there's that super quick course correction on Roz freaking out about her too. But that episode with the sexual harassment seminar is just miserable in almost every way. It's not even witty or snappy, or clever satire it's just miserable. Even the "are you as turned on as I am" is a weird call-back/spoof of a line from the first season of Cheers. So I think it's more fair to say, SOMETIMES the show hates women, but sometimes it doesn't and I guess as with many things it really depends on the writer. ---- Strangely, I think the idea that "nobody wants to be Frasier" is... weirdly part of the text? Frasier isn't like say, Sam Malone who is this paragon of a man. He's kind of George Costanza-esque where he's bald and while he's wealthy and intelligent and sophisticated he's... also a huge nerd. Even as an adult 40+ year old man he's a target of bullies. He's pathetic and women don't really find him attractive. I think actually thinking about it, probably the success of Costanza and Seinfeld did impact the writing, because when Seinfeld got popular is when Frasier started to lean much more in on that characterization. He'd get into more situations where he was wheeling and dealing, trying to score with women or messing up and ending up in gross compromising situations. Frasier doesn't even have a girlfriend in season 1. And then he really only goes on one date in season 2, which he ruins because his ex-wife makes him act insecure. And the things he does in that episode aren't even *half* as depraved as some of the stuff he does later on. That's... so weird.
Yeah it only hates women if you look at those parts and ignore the rest of the show. But if you're doing that you can do it in other ways. The show hates men. The show hates black people. The show hates old people. The show hates young people.
Dude this hits. I am often feeling pretty shitty when I feel like there is no justice for a women. Im the only girl in the family. I work fucking hard. I still feel like there is no justice because if I have a critism it doesn't count.
“If I have a criticism it doesn’t count.” I mean just look at all the comments under this telling me I’m taking it too seriously or I’m too offended. Misogyny is such a cultural baseline that even saying it doesn’t appeal to you is treated like an attack.
This is such a great companion piece to Jose's video. His mostly focusing on the creators' intent, positive aspects and accolades while this is such a rug pull from that general level of comfort I had toward the show. Your video feels like the necessary final part of Jose's. His being "What was Frasier and why do people like it?" and yours "what's the greater cultural context of Frasier and why don't people like it?"
Back again, freakin LOVE the music and audio editing of the intro song glitching out, as well as the music chosen for the historical context section including Anita Hill
I don't really see how the show Frasier 'fucking hates women'. Is it just problematic media that we should recognize those aspects of and then enjoy the rest or should we completely stop watching something that actively hates women at every turn?
Well, I'm curious about the different viewpoints. I know the show is still beloved, I know modern audiences still watches it, I'm curious how many agree with your points and how many don't, because Frasier is nothing new in terms of a 90s show aging in the lens of modern day. Seinfeld, Friends, Married with Children, I'll even put Beavis and Butthead in there too because that's a show dripping with 90s humor that is just really dated in terms of, "a person born after 2000s will not see the appeal anymore." Given time, all things age, and whether they age well or badly is dependent on the current social ideology of the masses. You look at sitcoms from the 70s in comparison to the 80s, then in comparison to the 90s, we'll find something in each decade, even in the best shows that still can be viewed by a modern audience of today as 'dated.' But it's always dependent on if the meaning of the show was mean spirited, or done with a good intention in mind. You say much of Frasier wasn't done with good intentions, I want to hear if fans think otherwise, since I always hear the opposite of Frasier being less looked at as an admirable figure and more 'he's a massive baby that no one should look up to.'@@hootsyoutube
@@thatguywade5384 I'm a Frasier fan and honestly I felt like this was a dud. I liked the Harry Potter video so I wanted to watch more of her stuff but this one just missed the mark for me. A lot of jokes are taken out of context. Jokes that are "anti-women" are focused on while jokes from characters like Roz or Daphne that are "anti-men" are skipped because they don't fit the message of the video. Things like Maris being described as this weird person and never shown aren't exclusive to this show or to women. Home Improvement did the same with Wilson. That's just the unseen character trope. And she claims that we're supposed to root for the 90s sitcom protagonist. That's the exact opposite of the point of Frasier. The show was made like a British sitcom where you're laughing at the main character and the stuff that goes wrong for him. Yeah you're rooting for him when you look at the show as a whole but in each individual story, you're laughing at the bad stuff that happens to him and Niles. Also, it's unfair to just brand the whole show a shitty sitcom because you dislike parts of it while ignoring so many of the good things about it. Showing gay people in a 90s show and not just using them as stereotypes or the punchline of a joke. Showing interactions between different groups of people and the difficulties of having to interact outside your demographic. Examining character's emotions and getting behind the psychology of it all in a way that other shows rarely do. A shitty sitcom isn't going to run for 11 years, outlast it's predecessor, win the most Emmys for a sitcom and become one of the most beloved shows of all time. The most it might do is run for a long time if it's something like Two and a Half Men. But based on her replies to people's comments, it sounds like she's unwilling to listen to any other views on the show. I forget sometimes that just because someone's good at editing a video essay, doesn't necessarily mean what they're saying is right. Like the stuff about Clarence Thomas. He's an awful person and that's awful what he did and that shows joked about it. But it has no place here. It just comes out of nowhere and has no direct connection to Frasier. It's just such a clumsy tangent added in.
@@joevictor53 I actually watched an essay about Two and A Half Men, specifically the baffling ending it has in its last season, and it's like night and day comparing that to Frasier when it comes to 'bad TV shows' Like Frasier is so much more poignant about mocking social norms and classism, stuff she argues is really sexist and misogynistic, while Two and a Half Men in the meantime is SO BLATANT in its sexism and misogyny, it's the laziest shit I have ever seen. You cannot tell me these two fit into the same category by this videos definition of 'terrible shows that aged badly.'
It's not the slightest hyperbole when I say I've been waiting almost 30 years for this. I was 22 when this show premiered and, as much as I loved Cheers, I was ALWAYS skeeved out by Frasier. It was that smug self-congratulatory Boomer Comedy vibe you guys touched upon (fuck Forrest Gump for that too, but that's a knish for another deli). Everything about and around FRASIER was SO pleased with itself -- the stars, writers, producers, Hollywood, the entire TV industry. This thing CLEANED UP at the Emmys/Globes time and time again. The vanguard of television comedy in the 90s. The winky "even allegedly educated, sensitive, successful, nurturing men just wanna be boys too" vibe, so who cares who they demean, belittle, exploit, etc. Article after article about how Frasier and Niles were revolutionary because prime-time television was presenting two "bickering but dimensional gay men" in the guise of brothers. But then of course they had to pull out the 90s Television Cliche of Cliches -- the "STRAIGHT GUYS GET MISIDENTIFIED AS GAY AND HOMOPHOBIC HIJINKS ENSUE" that Seinfeld did earlier, but at least with more of a sense of internal recrimination than external snark. Fuck this show.
@@frankbenham1745 Shall it be supposed that they lack the self-awareness needed to observe this surface level impression? Or are alienating implications a bit too drab to consider when posting a _charming_ remark?
@@freya8133 he kind of always got his comeuppance in the end. And despite his arrogance and toxic womanizing he did showcase progressive behavior rarely seen in the early 1980s.
Thank you SO much for the subtitles! I always appreciate them! Thanks for your honesty. I saw this vid shared on r/Breadtube and felt compelled to check it out. I am glad I did. You have a new subscriber. Thank you for your work.
So many thoughts, I've been sitting here and trying to put them to words without much success. It's so alienating and humiliating, being treated like a second class citizen, all while being told to lighten up, it's just a joke. At the same time, it has gotten better. It really has. Maybe that's why it hurts even more now. I used to take these attitudes for granted, but they hit harder when I don't expect them.
You have power to change things, but only if you are not working alone. Please consider joining a communist party and using the subsequent education to instill class consciousness in your friends and family.
Maturity is having to know the difference between what social cues to go by and what social cues not to go by. If you laugh at a show and understand clearly what humor is without getting offended or policing everything brought to the table then you are an adult. Now if you’re mind is as impressionable as someone abandoned by their father who never came back with the milk, then the show is not for you as a way of protecting those who will suffer your clay molded elementary mouth you have. Maturity is also understanding that humor is subjective, Frasier is a classy sitcom that shows intelligent humor. The concept of the show is that they are psychiatrists who show exactly what we all think of a psychiatrist. They listen, they give sound advice, they spread self awareness but behind closed doors they are despicable human beings like us. This is just your way to show people how bad a show is, if anything check out Saved By The Bell, Full House, and other kinds of sitcoms that degrade women, That 70’s Show and more. We’re aware of Frasier and their flaws but I think the show is clearly aware of that including the actors who enjoyed the show as most of us did
So the more I look into Frasier, and the more I watch the show, the more I think this essay about Frasier is... not entirely done in good faith. For starters: No, Frasier is not 'bad' in a objective way. Its writing, humor, and exceptionally casted characters are written in a manner that is of very high quality. It's punchlines, delivery, and setups are very much rooted in the bases of classism, elitism, farcity, and all done in a way that doesn't talk down to the audience or make them feel stupid for not understanding something. If it was bad, this show WOULD have been forgotten or not remembered highly by its fans, especially since it shared a lot of DNA with its predecessor Cheers, both from how it set up Frasier as a character, and the various writers that came over from Cheers. This was not a failure like Wings or The Tortelli's, two other spinoffs of Cheers. As well, the mentioning of how the show can be sexist, misogynistic and even homophobic is questionable. Now, lines that have aged poorly, like the Lupe Vélez story that Roz shares is something that the show deserves flak for, because the facts of her death may have been more readily available by that point that they could check its authenticity, or maybe they found it funny enough that it didn't matter. Either way, that isn't good. BUT, You cannot tell me 'The Matchmaker,' 'The Impossible Dream,' and even 'The Doctor is Out,' is primarily based around homophobic, gay panic jokes that are very low hanging fruit, and was written by lazy writers who did no research. The men who made these episodes were gay themselves, and wrote these episodes with a gay perspective in mind. Hell, Matchmaker made the gay man in that episode the straight man in terms of the comedy, while listening to the podcast 'Gayest Episode Ever' showed how gay men do enjoy these episodes, and even had GLAAD themselves commending the show for its writing. Again, not to say the show is without criticism from a modern perspective, as there are elements that have aged poorly, but I cannot say in good consciousness that your essay is correct in its assumptions of Frasier being a bad show. Many of your points, like Clarence Thomas' nomination hearings, refer to how that affects the present, and shows like Frasier only confirmed the pop culture tendencies and values that undermine sexual equality for both women and LGBT people. We don't remember the problematic elements of Frasier, we remember things like Eddie, when I don't think that's really the case at all. I think it's less an issue of Frasier being bad, but rather an issue of confirmation bias. You went into the show with folded hands because you knew going in you weren't going to like it, and you found things about it that confirmed your hatred of these types of shows that advance the 'banality' of these so called 'lazy jokes and low-hanging fruit.' Much of which, I personally, disagree with tremendously, because it seems like a very over-generalization. You went into this with a point, and you came out of it wanting to discuss a personal topic, but much of what you want to discuss doesn't seem to match up with how passionate fans view the show, or even research into behind the scenes work that went into the show from all aspects. It doesn't take into account THOSE aspects, and whether they match up or not with what you want to talk about. This is not to say you SHOULD like the show, because you not liking it is fine. This show does not work for your taste in media consumption, you don't like this humor, this is all well and proper. Where I think things get iffy is how you make many assumptions about the show and its fans, and combine it with your personal feelings for current issues like trans-discrimination and overturning over Roe V. Wade. Doesn't help as well you kinda don't enjoy people disagreeing with you either, since I can see you reply in the comments constantly against detractors, some that deserve it, some that don't. But either way, this essay just seems like it was done with an agenda in mind, rather than an open-minded discussion about the values and issues of Frasier with a friend of yours.
Don't comment on shows you know NOTHING about the tradition they emerged from to begin with.This is why as well as the genuinely careful British comedy there was a Brit I sh tradition of more cerebral humour.
This is outstanding. I've long had an issue with Kelsey Grammar. For one, I resented his depiction of women in the show "Girlfriends". I was also lukewarm about "Fraiser", but never really knew why. This video helped me piece together the "why". The show was insidious. This confirms to me that Grammar has consistently been a piece of isht. I wasn't even aware of '93 incident. Now everything adds up.
@@freya8133 I'm well aware that he wasn't the writer. However, as executive producer of "Girlfriends", there's no doubt he had creative input on characters, storyline, etc. The narrative adds up.
Born in 1980, yeah, that was the zeitgeist. I didn't notice at the time because I was a kid and obviously more or less part of the same ideas. Not the worst show of the time, but the video is quite right.
While it is fair to discuss Kelsey Grammar’s sketchy past, I do think it’s unfair you don’t mention his early life as well. His childhood was absolutely horrifying. The following is from Wikipedia but he’s discussed this publicly several times. This includes a heartbreaking interview with Oprah where he discusses his sister and he completely breaks down. When Grammer was twelve years old, his grandfather died of cancer. In 1968, his father was murdered in St. Thomas by a mentally ill cab driver. In 1975, his 18 year old sister was kidnapped, raped, and murdered in Colorado Springs. The two men are still in prison for this crime. In 1980, his two teenage half-brothers died in a scuba diving accident. At this point he was 25. How do you think that shapes a person? Safe to say he has been plagued by alcohol and substance abuse problems. There are several episodes where he is not there because he was in rehab due to multiple relapses. The cast had to do an intervention on him. The cast have all said he was difficult to work with but they understood why he was the way was. This is not a defence of his alleged crimes, I feel you’ve painted half a picture of a man who’s faced extraordinary tragedy that puts most of our own issues to shame.
Yeah, as a survivor of sexual assault, I’m painfully aware of the way any tragedy in an aggressors biography will be used to absolve them. We are fodder to you. We exist as a foil to some man’s journey toward self actualization. We are not fully human. Only cardboard cutouts in the shape of a person.
@@hootsyoutube I am sorry that happened to you. Nobody deserves that and I hope you’re healing. I have been on the receiving end of psychological abuse for the past year from my own family and I have yet to fully process it myself and my comment shouldn’t be taken personally towards yourself. My point wasn’t to dismiss the victim or treat them as “fodder”, it was more to say if we are to discuss this person, then should mention everything. Does he deserve to be in prison if he committed this crime? Of course. I just believe it’s worth mentioning if we’re going to assess him as a person.
@@mnvr-pd6wz when I bring up a 37 year old man who had sex with a 15 year old girl and your first instinct is to protect the man you should sit with that for a bit.
@@hootsyoutube When did I defend him? I didn’t, I’m not his lawyer. Ironically, I actually mentioned other bad things he did while on the set of Frasier which your own video failed to mention. My point was you’re talking about someone whose past is extraordinarily fucked up and is worse than most. Did that cause him to commit this crime? I don’t know. But it’s wrong to not mention it at all.
24:16 What makes this even more fucked in hindsight is that there was at least one primetime sitcom that *did* empathize with Anita & mocked everyone actually at fault; and it was fucking *Dinosaurs* . Like you KNOW you’re on the wrong side of history when a silly dinosaur puppet show on ABC has more intelligent and compassionate takes than you.
The earlier seasons were significantly better, I have to say-Frasier was less melodramatic, the story beats were less horrendous cringe and he wasn’t doing much romantically. He was one of many characters, most of whom were already more interesting than he was. The later seasons are just a desperate attempt to escalate and up the stakes more and more and it wasn’t as engaging. Also, this whole thing was written by white gay men: often the worst offenders when it comes to casual sexism and othering of straight women. But! I rewatch for Niles. That’s it. And only really the first 4 seasons. And as a Trekkie I have to make the prerequisite “actually the beard was Riker’s” comment.
It's absolutely wild to me that a country that bays so loudly about freedom and democracy has its laws decided for it by nine people appointed for life by one of the two main political parties. When Ireland amended its constitution to make same-sex marriage legal and later to lift the ban on abortion, it was done via referendum. The people spoke and made their wishes clear.
21:53 "All the while, the men of KACL continue making disgusting degrading comments about their coworkers, and we're meant to laugh." We're meant to laugh at how pathetic and unsociable those two male characters are, because of the way they behave. I think this (deliberately?) bad faith reading of that episode encapsulates the attitude of this entire video. I mean seriously, Frasier is to mental illness what Jerry Springer is to poverty? That is such a wildly unfair characterization lol.
I'm 2/3 the way through, and really enjoying this so far. I do want to point out that Clarence Thomas was nominated to replace Thurgood Marshall on the Supreme Court, and not Brennan.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Hey, a bunch of new people have been finding this year old video. Maybe because of the reboot, idk. I do not care if you still love Frasier. I personally think "I hate my wife" jokes were boring and passé even by the time the earliest episodes of Frasier aired, but if those kind of jokes are your particular brand of jangling keys, go with God. In fact, I made a whole video about loving problematic media, check it out: ua-cam.com/video/gGYjoUZq3z4/v-deo.html
“I personally think “I hate my wife jokes” are boring”
As opposed to going “erm, so thats a thing” and saying fuckwaffle? Which is the crux of your humor. Also why do we have to enjoy problematic shows in the context of them being problematic? Who decides this is problematic? Is there a council of approved media? Whats non-problematic? There are many progressive novelists like Virginia Woolf who had problematic opinions, there are problematic novelists like Tolkien who wrote progressive novels. It just is used as a vehicle to decry the meta aspects of a work, to then hold up something made by terrible people. Look at the backlash against Licorice Pizza versus the fawning love for Marvel films. Americans dont comprehend that most fiction is not a morality play. Why should we enjoy something on the context of its morality if its express purpose is that it’s a show for grown adults who should know better? You cant be stupid enough to not know time is linear, right?
Homie, I've never said "fuckwaffle" in my life@@maydaymemer4660
@@hootsyoutubeare you geniunely autistic or do you not comprehend the idea of metaphor, simile, comparison or hyberbole? The entire sense of humor of this video and of your replies in the comment is twee, flippant regurgitations of 2019 reddit/marvel humor. Do you just not view similar things as the same? “Homie, my guy, you totes did an unepic waffle bacon with this comment bro. Thumbs down”
@@hootsyoutubewhat are these fuckwits deals? This video is very good. Fuck Frasier. Fuck Kelsey Grammer.
I’ve noticed that a lot of people who defend it spell it “Frazier”, like they’ve never actually seen the show and are pretending to be fans because they think it’s anti-woke or whatever.
I would like to suggest that you are not a terrible person for laughing at a few sexist jokes. It genuinely can be difficult to gauge levels of irony off of a few jokes, and comedy comes from the unexpected and subversion of expectation right? Sometimes when you can clearly see it, the idea that the joke itself is obnoxious or hugely outdated is the funny part, but setting and context is important. The more someone relies on it, the more apparent instead of a "wow society has come a long way from women being called chicks" has become (or always was) "oh God, you are nostalgic for days when women were subservient to men and you think it is funny if women are put in their place".
As in most cases, it all depends on context, right? The problem with most sexist/racist/transphobic/homophobic jokes is that *_THEY'RE JUST NOT FUNNY_* . That's at least why _I_ don't like lame jokes such as those barfed up by Ricky Gervais or Dave Chapelle. Because they're lazy and just not funny.
However, as a Jew, I have received ancient wisdom, passed down to me, traveling on a long, sacred line of tradition; bequeathed unto me from my parents, their parents, and their parents before them: _if you can't laugh at yourself, you're fucked_ (and frankly not very fun at parties).
@@justin___ Oh I absolutely agree with that. Chapelle is a great example actually because all his trans jokes are just lowest common denominator and unfunny. When I tried to watch the special I didn't know he went after trans people, and as a non-binary person I laughed at a few of the joke, but the more it went on, the worse it got. It was clear he didn't actually know stuff about queer culture or anything like that. Like if the executive trans-woman slammed a jar of pickles on the table it would be hilarious, but he went for shock value and didn't think it through.
I think that aspect of subversion is important sometimes shity things can be funny but not because they're naturally funny but because shity people actually believe them. However this clearly come from a place of privilege because I'm a straight white male. I have experienced this in the reverse. I happen to have cerebral palsy which leaves me in a wheelchair. With that being said. it's not too funny to me that people think they're smarter than me by nature of not being in a wheelchair. However I've been in situations where a mutual person knows me and the other person making fun of me and may find it hilarious because they have an understanding that I'm much more intelligent than the person making fun of me. Therefore laughing at their pathetic attempt to make themselves feel better. I can certainly see the humor in that. I really hope that makes sense and I didn't butcher what I was trying to say. I think what I'm trying to say. is it's like laughing at how unaware said person can be. Although it comes with a huge caveat of having the luxury not being a part of the marginalized group that's being targeted.
@@PermacultureCowboy why leave a comment if it is so pointless?
@@PermacultureCowboy critiquing noted, I’ll pass that along for her performance review.
“Growing the beard” is actually a reference to Commander Riker growing his beard for season two of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Season two is where Riker and the other cast members start settling comfortably into their roles and the writers start developing their characters independent of homages to the original 1960s Star Trek series.
ya fr, ds9 went bald
@@ADHDtjds9 was great from the start it had the episode Duet in the first season even if there were some bad ones like that one with the alien board game. Compared to Season 1 TNG it was high art.
Ya but DS9 did it better
@@tomstokoe5660 it deffo got way better from about s3 or s4, duet is nice (n so r some others fro. The early run) but most of it its still finding its feet. Tng also hsd episodes like "the measure of a man" in its early run, similar to duet in being outlier high quality episodes. I will grant, it was worse in tng
@@ADHDtj Now we need bald beard Riker
Holy shit I had no idea about Kelsey Grammar’s rape trial! Absolutely abhorrent
Yeah his ex wife Camille also accused him of abuse too.
His r*** trial?
The grand jury wouldn't even indict him.
Getting an indictment is usually a rubber stamp.
So it isn't his r*** trial.
It is a baseless accusation.
I cant believe a guy was accused, went thru due process, was found innocent and then didnt have his life ruined
You guys are all for rehabilative justice (sorry for spelling) and taking mental healthcand drug abuse seriously, until a guy who was strung up on 50 different drugs is accused of commiting a crime likely while under the influence after having yknow buried his own sister
@@maydaymemer4660 we all know due process is only so effective as public perception allows it to be. By your logic OJ was innocent too since he was found not guilty by a jury of his peers. But what are you implying about 50 drugs and sisters? Doesn’t seem relevant. Who are you talking about and what therefore are you conflating
Help I'm on at least 20 different drugs
Frasier is based in British comedy tradition in which the protagonist is rarely rooted for, and would be a villain in most other contexts. Edmund Blackadder is a perfect example of this. He is a conniving weasel but also always fails. Seeing himself a brilliant mastermind with being cowardly and incompetent in reality. The comedy comes from the juxtaposition of his inflated self-image and reality, just like Frasier.
Same with Del Boy and Basil fawlty
No. Frasier is a good and moral person. He's not unlikable at all.
Nothing in Blackadder was as bad as this. This is actually gross
@@CoryMck Nah. You just have a jejune perspective.
@@mdavidmullins nah u
20:32 Julia & Frasier's interaction was a shot for shot satire of the absurdity of Sam & Diane 😵
The way Sam and Diane get together is reversed with Julia and Frasier
It was a callback to that classic scene from Cheers, but the hosts of this awful video are too ignorant to know that. That doesn't stop them from going on and on about how much they know about the '90s, however. 🙄
Growing the beard refers to Riker, not Sisko... This must be an ingeniously subtle way to get more people to comment on your video by making a Trek error because this is like the third comment I've made on a youtube video in a decade.
I know this is old, but it isn't really wrong, in that the actor that played Sisko was required to shave his beard and grow out his hair because the show runners were worried about Hawk being a Starfleet officer. When he was allowed to get his bald head and goatee back, and he got a starship, the show really fired on all cylinders. You could easily interpret 'growing the beard' as a reference to DS9 without ever touching the TNG fandom. The two were very different shows.
@patrickstonetree1 You're saying it's commonly thought that DS9 only took off at the end of season 3? I dunno man. I don't think that's a commonly held belief, most people think the early seasons of DS9 are as good as the latter seasons and there isn't nearly as big a gap in quality as TNG early seasons and later seasons.
Martin would have clicked off a few seconds in… “nope, these freaks are about to break out into a vegetable medley”
As a former private duty nurse, Frasier's expectation of Daphne to also be the housemaid (aka "chief cook and bottle washer") in addition to her ACTUAL (and literally her only REQUIRED JOB DESCRIPTION) of being a physical therapist to his dad, was sadly not much different than the expectations of many home health and private duty nurses today---from the families AND from the agencies that employ the healthcare workers. I recall being told that doing household chores like washing baby bottles (I worked with PED patients), folding and putting away laundry, and even tidying up the child's room all fell within the "expected duties" of a home health/private duty nurse for their agency----and I didn't even live with the family. When you provide any kind of service for an individual and/or their family member in their own home, the lines of employee vs. familiar are all too often blurred, but only at the convenience of those being provided the service. Whether intentional or not, the sentiment of "we're a big family here" or "you're like family to us" often becomes an emotional manipulation to exploit the worker providing a service to a family. I've even had instructors (in nursing school) tell the class that "in the (nursing) profession, you will be expected to wear 'many hats' in addition to that of nurse". Although at the time it was accompanied by an amusing anecdote of when she would occasionally help patients "wrangle chickens" back when she was a "lowly" home health LVN (her implication, not mine. Despite having started as an LPN, she was what's known in the biz as a 'degree snob' who loved to downplay the knowledge and field experience of LPNs in favor of the so-called 'holy grail' hospital BSNs, but that's a different story for another day, lol).
Please tell me more! I have a home health nurse for my foot and I do everything I can to get her job done quickly I even get all items in one spot next to trash van with scissors and thank her for the smallest thing because I don't want to bother her
This was fantastic. I love how y'all called out how the "peace and prosperity" of the 90s was illusory. As an elder millennial that's something I haven't examined or confronted enough.
My god bro, keep it in your pants
Agreed.
Well said.
"Peace and prosperity at what cost?"
I've long said that the 90's is when pain was outsourced to the rest of the world. It was like we were drifting along in a narcotic beige haze, where nothing could go wrong. It's precisely why I hate centrist politics, because that's the decade they all look to for inspiration.
I feel obligated to bring this up every time it's mentioned, Arendt's depiction of Eichmann was completely incorrect she only watched the first few days of the trial and did not see later evidence or for that matter him breaking under cross-examination. Eichmann was not some pencil Pusher he was one of the chief architects of the Holocaust and did it out of a fervent hatred of Jewish people. Basically she fell for his defense.
I like that episode where frasier plays the piano song for his dad
This video slapped me across the face with melancholy. The Kelsey Grammer assaulting a child before Fraiser started airing, the realization Clarence Fucking Thomas is still on the Supreme Court and was instrumental in taking away reproductive rights, the Lupe Velez story...it's all so heartbreaking.
You mean granting basic human/civil rights (or at least taking a step in that direction) towards unborn children. You know the segregationists were "pro-choice" too. For example:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation_academy
@@JohnSmith-zw8vp "unborn children", lol.
@@natsinthebelfry Back then it was "colored people in OUR whites only places, lol"
@@JohnSmith-zw8vp What is wrong with you
@@TuesdaysArt What's wrong with ME? You're the one that endorses killing unborn children on request! :P
A couple of things from a Gen Xer who watched the show in it's original run. 1. It was still better than other shows, which is terrible. 2. It was remarkable progressive to gay men 3. the 90s were remarkable self satisfied 4. I didn't know that about Kelsey Grammer 5. thanks for the perspective. Hugs.
I just don't watch TV shows in depth it's just on in the back
I’m a millennial and watched it as a kid/teenager during and shortly after it’s original run. I didn’t notice any of the ‘problematic’ things at the time as I was young and back then it was everywhere, but having rewatched this and other shows from that era recently, I can say for certain that while certainly not perfect, the show holds up an awful lot better than many other shows. I don’t know why these video makers have such a grievance with it. Some of it is absolutely fair comment but other stuff seems completely extreme. ‘The banality of Frasier’ holocaust comment is completely offensive to be honest.
@@lynottlives You expressed quite well something that I was feeling but couldn't quite put into words. Thank you.
@@lynottlives After giving Frasier a proper viewing, since I saw this before the show, I think you're right on the money.
@@lynottlives I mean, you could watch the video an see why the video makers have a grievance with it. That its the best of a bad bunch doesn't make the criticisms of it invalid.
If they don't bother you, that might just be because you're not the target of the worst of the offenses.
Incredible internet comment since lost in time: "If Happy Days jumped the shark and Star Trek grew a beard, can we say Doctor Who face-fucked the pavement?"
Ok. Ok. I HAVE to know what that term means.
@@Thehouseoffail There was an episode during the Tennant era that was fan submitted. The episode was about a group of people who've all encountered the Doctor bonding over this shared experience and trying to find the Doctor again. They end up in a fight against an alien that infiltrated their ranks and one woman who is in a romantic relationship with our viewpoint character in the group ends up as a face in a concrete slab. The conclusion of the episode is the viewpoint character talking to the camera about the fallout of that fight, introducing his girlfriend in her face-slab form, and commenting that they still have a lovelife, which can only really mean he facefucks the concrete slab.
@@h00pla434 "Love and Monsters" was a horrific ordeal that I haven't fully recovered from even a decade after I first watched it
@@h00pla434 that was an incredibly WILD ride but I was still not prepared for the statement “which can only really mean he facefucks the concrete slab.” 💀
I think that would fall under the Gainex Ending trope.
Just finished watching José's video about Frasier. It was really well made, just as this was, and it made very clear something that's dangerous about UA-cam and UA-cam essayists. Frankly, you guys are good. Very, very good and very convincing. And had I watched this video, without his, I'd have a very strong (very catered) opinion on Frasier. Had I watched José's without this video, would have a similar (but opposite) very strong opinion (very catered).
Point being: be careful what you watch. Just because it's very convincing doesn't mean there isn't another very convincing counter-argument. Don't fall into the warm, fluffy arms of confirmation bias. Give each opinion their due. More likely than not, you'll not agree with either whole-heartedly anymore, but have a more nuanced, more accurate, more fulfilling, and frankly for satisfying opinion. I always try to keep my mind open, but I'll try even harder to make sure I'm not bumping around in a bubble, as it were.
Cross-Posted on José's video.
Thanks for writing that! I was at first somewhat peeved with this video as I had vague but very fond memories of the show, but it's important to discover and point out flaws from time to time. Even in the things we (used to) like. You're so right!
Your comment made me realize that not only are video essays very catered towards a certain position, but I/users more often then not only get to see the side we are likely to already agree with from the start. Video's like this are a rare case, directly linking to the "opposing" viewpoint.
It also made me realize how sources are often not clearly given or given somewhat half-assed like in this video (sorry...). Maybe it's cherrypicking, but it has always bothered me a lot that video essays, especially those about media, social sciences and philosophical themes, do give of the vibes of academia without providing their refferences prorpely. As someone intrested in all that I want to dig deeper and read more, but citing like (author, year) is just not always enough to be able to do that. Still, better then nothing at all.
So, thanks for that again!
11:56 Good thing to note, I was born in the late 90’s. My history classes in public school in the early 2010’s stopped teaching global events in detail just after the Vietnam war. And the Vietnam war was the ONLY thing we learned about for the 1970s. Social history stopped at the civil rights movements of the 1960s. Disregarding that those events carried into the 70s
TLDR: my history class taught that history stopped before my mother was born.
Same, I’ve always loved history and our high school classes were pretty pathetic. I’m not sure if we even got to Vietnam actually.
@@richardarriaga6271 oh that’s an extremely smart way to teach that class. I also took AP and definitely would have benefited from that.
Similar thing with my history classes in Canada, circa 2006 or so. For one, in four years of high school, you only had to take one history course, rest were optional. Curriculum for the one non-optional history course also ended in the 1970s for us, with the October Crisis.
Same for my classes in the late 90s-early 2000s. History stopped at Vietnam.
David Angell could not have written season 10 episode 12 because he and his wife died in the 9/11 attacks which happened around the start of season 9, he was one of the creators and executive producers of Fraiser
Chris Marcil wrote S10E12
This is in my top hoots videos! Biting and charming and the exact right levels of rage and hope.
Thank you 😭
Yeah, it's pretty fucking good, as is your new vid... 😊
Thank you for directing me here! New favorite channel to devour! I love you!
@@hootsyoutube so wonderful! I appreciate your candor & helping give language to why I never liked this show! I love you!
Growing the beard started with Star Trek's Commander Riker, Sisko's beard was later.
Yeah, and according to TV Tropes that’s the case. But I guess Sisko is an example of the same phenomena happening in the same franchise.
i thought Frazier was innocuous.
makes me want to see your take on Two and a Half Men.
now that’s a show that hates women.
Fantastic essay, thank you for not shying away from the heavy topics, for telling the truth. I hope you took some decompression time after this, those moments of peace between confronting these issues keep us going.
Oh hi! You do great work, too! (Thank Fiq i.e. F.D. Signifier for that one.) I love finding more great people & channels thanks to collabs & shout-outs from the great people & channels I watch! Hecc, I only found The Leftist Cooks a scant few months ago, c/o the lovely Jessie Gender (she is so sweet and so smart!).
So as for you, Mr. Fox, your comment applies to you, too! Your essay on doing more than just finger-waggling at PUAs and their loyal fans - i.e. giving them info to _help them_ to move away from such creepos, actually offering them more than, "They're wrong, sooo good luck out there!" - was [and still is] _so_ needed, and I hope it continues to get around. Cheers!
"Francis Fukoyama, the absolute f*ckwit" is a line delivery that will go with me to my grave.
They're never going to let him live down ''the end of history'' prediction.
Reddit humor
fun fact: I'm a woman, and my father named me after Kelsey Grammar. He was going to name his first child after him regardless of what gender I turned out to be, because Kelsey Grammar was his favorite actor, and Frazier was his favorite show.
Yikes. Well, your name is still your own and cool.
@seastormsinger why is that yikes?
@@williamgass9242 well I wouldn't want to be named after a child rapist
I love how one can see things so differently, I always saw the dog as the straight man so to speak. Because when he would stare at frasier, I felt like he was staring into his soul and judging him lol maybe that's just me and my custom wired brain… But I always felt the dog knew what was up. For the record, I'm 52 which puts me directly in the middle of generation X, and though I got a late diagnosis in life, I'm also neurodivergent, so I never really quite fit into any of the cultural constructs… Granted, as a young cis male I was definitely Marinated in the indoctrination of "horseshit masculinity"… I just feel like the word "toxic" just doesn't do it justice.. so might take on television shows is probably a typical and com I'm not educated in media studies I was just raised by a TV set. Fortunately, I was raised in what passed for a liberal/feminist household... so both parents worked, and I was raised by a television set. But at least I didn't have to deal with some right wing Christian indoctrination I mean not at home… Lol.
Was not expecting this when coming from Jose’s vid.
With regards to stagnating attitudes towards mental illness, they didn’t improve in the next couple of decades:
high school friendships dissipated when my brother became ill in the early 2000s; hostile college housemates in the 2010s (behind my back of course, one tried to get me evicted whilst another warned his sister of the crazy).
Palestine? Sorry about the nitpick but the 90's were a time of hope on that front, it was the time of the Oslo accords, when it seemed for a moment that peace might be possible.
Today is far worse than the 90's ever were in Palestine.
How do you even get up in the morning??
Usually just when the sunlight comes through the window! I'm a morning person.
It can't be a coincidence that this video is appearing at the same moment as Jose's, can it?
No 😌🙏🏻✨
8:10 maids are skilled workers too, most "unskilled labor" takes skill too do it fast and well, just sayin
"unskilled" is just code for "unvalued".
Maids are not skilled workers lol.
"Skilled" means requires extensive training and qualifications.
Ironically, you're devaluing skilled work by comparing it to unskilled work. @@jonathankent1517
Not sure if you are trolling or serious, but growing the beard is from TNG, not DS9, although it does apply to both, I guess.
I remember being confused by Fraiser when I was younger because in my country in ~2004-2007 ish they'd show a lot of Cheers reruns during non-prime time hours so I was familiar with the character but I didn't know he had his own show and didn't understand why so many other tv shows were always referencing HIM so much when he's just one of the dudes on Cheers.
I need to be an ultra Trek nerd here: growing the beard refers to Jonathan Frakes (who played Commander Will Riker) growing a beard in season 2 of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Season 1 was famously awful (unlike DS9 which had a very decent first season) and although Season 2 wasn’t great, it definitely was a turning point to better things for TNG. After Season 3 TNG really settled into its own and then SPAWNED the SPINOFF Star Trek DS9.
TNG Season 1 is not famously awful. People still whining about it but it has its good episodes and good acting which means it is not awful.
Had to stop watching for a min just to check to see if someone pointed this out. That said, Hoot's use is also fine. Can we all just agree that Next Gen really started with S2E9 Measure of a Man?
@@Zodroo_Tint have you not seen "Code of Honor" or "The Naked Now"?
at first I thought it was a mistake, until I saw the Family Guy/American Dad gag
@@kadmii have you not seen "Datalore", "We'll Always Have Paris", "11001001", "Heart of Glory", or "The Big Goodbye"? :P
honestly the only episodes in S1 I'd say were outright _awful_ were the two you mentioned, "Justice", and "Haven", and the rest range from okay to great; season 1 is definitely the weakest season of TNG, but it's still closer to "average" than "awful"
As a middle-aged cis straight Xer I have a lot to learn. I cringe looking back at the things that used to make me laugh and it is because of people like you that I learn more everyday. That Lupe story made me sad and angry but I guess one less person believes the lies about her.
I read Xer as a neo-pronoun 💀
@@Jane-oz7pp Geez, you’re an overreacting loser
"As a middle-aged cis straight Xer I have a lot to learn."
LMAO
I never thought a video about Frasier would almost bring me to tears. That was some great work.
I love Frasier but I’m ready for this
update: I kind of hate Frasier now
@@zenleeparadise it’s okay to love it, don’t let someone hit you with modern sensibilities. Just enjoy the fantasy of the show, it’s okay for a 90’s show not to reflect modern sensibilities.
@@xshadowscreamx yeah I was joking
Buffy did not jump the shark. Having her raised from the dead was perfectly allowable by the rules of established canon.
Re the coziness of how Eddie makes us feel. New Frazier has a joke where his voice makes a baby fall asleep. I used to use the reruns as something to fall asleep to.
Ayyyyyyyyy Fukuyama. Love a mention of that utter goofball. A lot of bad takes lead back to him and in my comments I had like a dozen people attempting to rehabilitate him mostly by being like "he's since moved away from being a thinly veiled chicago boy, you need to read [one of five of his other books] to get what he was really saying in End of History give it a chance come on bro bro just one more fukuyama book and I swear he won't sound like a neocolonialism apologist"
One of my favorite moments of college was when, in a 3 hour small seminar discussion class where we mostly did a book a week on political theory (and assoc. topics), we were assigned a Fukuyama book one week. Regardless of our usual disagreements, every student in that class was united in dunking on Fukuyama for 3 hours, and it was truly amazing.
Did--did we just compare "Frasier" to the Holocaust?
Your brain on feminism
Did-did-did-did-did
I haven't even gotten that far into the video but from being at the 7 minute mark I'm not really surprised on that trajectory.
Frasier is a good show
Imagine the tossed salads and scrambled eggs playing on schindlers list
I love this video but I also love Matt Baume's videos about the impact of Frasier on gay representation so I guess I contain multitudes.
I compare Frasier to community a lot bc of the way both were steps in the right direction for gay ppl on n off the camera but both were not great abt women
This made me think more critically about one of my favorite background shows to watch. It's true that no one wants to be Frasier, and I think overall that's kind of the point of the overarching narrative of the show from season to season. He's perpetually alone because he's a bad person underneath the surface of gentility, and the 90's were absolutely rife with all sorts of terrible issues in a ton of shows. That being said I still get a giggle from a lot of the humor on the show, and if you compare it to the show it spun off of they did make progress of a sort (Cheers is so violently anti-woman I can't even watch it tbh). Thanks for the excellent vid, now a subscriber.
i think your interpretation of the show speaks to your own morality, but i think you may misinterpret the intentions of the showrunners. personally i think they were genuinely misogynistic especially considering their decision to continue working with kelsey grammar after the r*** allegation (don’t want my comment deleted.) just some food for thought!
edit: i wanted to note i see where you’re coming from, but i think they wanted to criticize the wealthy more than they wanted to criticize sexism.
@@zoesolomon7773 totally get that, and going back and watching Cheers even it's not hard to see that side of it.
Imo most of the best shows have main characters you wouldn't really want to be. I think Breaking Bad is the best show of all time, but it who the fuck would want to be Walt? And who would really want to be Tony Soprano? The enjoyment doesn't come from living through them but from following them and I think the same is true with Frasier. You enjoy seeing the smug intellectual guy (a person many of us have met, but one we also see some of ourselves in) face highs and lows
Frasier isn't a bad person. He genuinely wishes to help people and is often self-sacrificing despite his sizeable ego.
Frasier just flawed, but his flaws have solid psychological bases, like his inferiority complex fueling his ego and his need of being special driving his want of fame, that simply make him human. That he's so glaringly flawed is what makes him so endearing.
Many of the best episodes deal with Frasier's hangups, such as ridiculously composed theme song or his crisis upon getting a lifetime achievement award.
@little hoot: an erratum if you please: the phrase "growing the beard" was actually initially in reference to Will Riker on Star Trek: The Next Generation. In the first season of TNG, Will is clean shaven. The film quality isn't as good, the supporting characters are sometimes a bit flat in their acting, and several of the episodes are just bad (though the introduction of Q is fire because John de Lancie is a god among men). But in the second season, Will gets a chinstrap beard and the series really comes into its own. So while I agree that Sisko with the beard is objectively a better Sisko, I would contend that early DS9 wasn't bad by comparison to later seasons AND that the Ur "growing of the beard" was from The Next Generation just as the Ur jumping of the shark was form Happy Days.
But that said, this video was fantastic. It was an excellent takedown of 90's misogyny (that is still so so so prevalent). The tie-in to Roe being overturned and the deeply problematic appointment and continued disgraceful appointment of Clarence Thomas (to say nothing of Amy "Coney Island" Barrett and Brett "I like beer" Kavanaugh) was excellent and an angle I had not previously considered.
Thank you, as always, for the excellent quality of the content you create. This was punchy and fun.
Watching this video immediately after José 's video is giving some insane whiplash.
The good kind, but definitely unexpected.
Subscribed.
Things got unexpectedly heartfelt at the end and I really liked it.
1:40 No way this DS9 clip gets referenced! One of my favourite monologues, ever.
Absolutely incredible collab, very moving video, thank you both so much for making it, it's one of my favourite videos now
Totally minor point but Frasier and Niles are psychiatrists, meaming they have MDs. Psychologists have PhDs. It was more common in generations past for psychiatrists to offer therapy, most these days are primarily trained to manage medications.
Your words toward the end hit me hard. Especially after learning that now women who AREN'T EVEN PREGNANT sometimes can't even get needed medications if they're of child-bearing age because those drugs might harm a fetus. Even if alternative drugs are less effective and riskier to our health. We're in a place now where men are willing to kill us to make sure we act like incubators. It makes me incredibly angry, but it inspires me to be an even more "annoying" feminist. And defend trans rights too.
"alternative drugs" you do realize you sound like an antivaxer right?
@@maydaymemer4660 What do you mean?
"Act like incubators". I hate this narrative that pregnant women are just going through the motions because a man put them in this terrible situation. Maybe, just maybe, some pregnant women care a great deal about their unborn child?
I've never heard somebody say that the octuplets episode was The Simpsons' shark-jumping moment. People always say the Armen Tanzarien episode.
It isn't that I "like" Frasier as much as it reminds me of one of my uncles. To the point where even his sister sees it.
Ironically, he ended up being deeply in the closet.
I think Frasier being mistaken as gay is a running joke in the show too. Matt Baume had a video on it here on UA-cam as well.
This is my hipster comment of the month.
I was subscribed to both you and Jose before these vids came out. I watched his first because a.) I never got into any sitcoms and b.) I knew he would give it a charitable read with the good takeaways, educating me on what I missed out on, and c.) I knew you were going to wreck Frazier’s shit.
I’m mortified to learn about Lupe and the Kelsey Grammer assault allegations.
Keep doing what you’re doing, Hoot. This shit makes the world a better place.
Definitely not making the world a better place. She’s Making it boring and incredibly difficult
@@thaddeust.thirdiii736 In the comment above, “I prefer my dry, 90s sitcoms to have been performed by child-rapists that got off scott-free.”
What a joke, Thaddeus T. Third III. Try another one for us…
You forgot to put a period at the end of your second sentence, man.
@@thaddeust.thirdiii736 people like Frazier make the world more difficult.
I can’t decide what makes me cringe harder: boomer humour, or millennials/gen z struggling with the separation of farce from reality in the most sanctimonious tones possible.
“It’s just Frasier!”
no you literally just dont get farce because youre autistic. youre like the nostalgia critic, when he watches shrek and is like "i dont get why donkey says hes making waffles"@@hootsyoutube
@hootsyoutube no, the point is more nuanced than that: the point is that you literally do not engage with the idea of the show on any deeper level - its influence, its stylistic choices or what it tries to say about its characters. You are the kind of person to watch Blackadder and not understand the character isnt intended as a hero, he like Frasier is intended as a depiction of a specific kind of person in a specific time with a specific upbringing and personality informed by his class and social status. You have superhero movie brain, you need a guy with a white hat and a guy with a black hat to know who the piece of media is designating as who to root for
I watched so much frasier as a kid but had no clue what cheers was till I was in my late teens
There's an irony in this vid. They make a comment about how acknowledging a joke is bigoted or 'punching down' within the show doesn't justify the joke. And at the same time, they make a joke about themselves as humorless killjoys for overanalyzing this show. Joking about being humorless doesn't make you not humorless.
I watch a lot of breadtube... it matches my social and political beliefs well. But there is a grain of truth to a progressive streak of just shitting on everything, with no room to laugh. This vid is in that vein.
Obviously the vid makers are welcome to not like Frasier and to express that feeling. And this comment, while technically negative, actually increases their odds of getting on the algorithm. So. You're welcome. haha
I didn’t joke about being humorless, I actually said I’m not humorless because I’m not! I’m funnier than every man who has ever made an “I hate my wife” joke. Hope this helps!
@hootsyoutube 0x2=0
_Frasier_ wildly vacillates from 'witty-funny' to 'cringe'. There are some episodes I can still laugh at, but the fact that the characters almost never grow gets very old. Kelsey Grammer, OTOH, is a conservative jerk who most likely got away with statutory sexual assault. In the way that I can't watch _Cosby_ or Louis CK, I have issues with KG now. If i ever catch an episode of _Frasier_ , it's one of a few where someone actually learns something. I like the episodes where Lilith and Frasier make peace, for example. But there's no arguing that Grammer is a good dude or that the show isn't mean-spirited part of the time.
I think the most ironic line in _Frasier_ is "I'm listening." He very rarely did.
Please let Americans never find any of our shows and be surprised at the idea of “protagonist =/= hero”
tossing the salad
I love how my immediate thought of "The Banality of Frasier" made me think of the "Banality of the Big Bang Theory" then hoots says it like two seconds later. My emotionally abusive and narcissistic boomer mother loved this show and unsurprisingly loves Big Bang Theory. My intellectual but largely absent and passive dad is kind of silent about both. It's a weird dynamic
youre such a weird man
Huh, my abusive narcissistic gen x mom also loves TBBT. Weird 😂
Frasier is top-tier.
love the fact that on sponsorblock the first eight minutes are marked as filler
Oooft this was confronting... I am surprised that with your feelings on the matter, why you would colab with Jose who has such an opposite take to you?
I don't write this to be rude, I am genuinely curious because surely with his much larger reach he is committing the very thing your railing against here? Or were you both super shocked when you saw each others videos?
It's hard for me to dislike Frasier because I watched it every school day with my mum before school, so it is extremely nostalgia laden for me and I do fall way more in the Jose camp. Maybe after this video has digested a little more the shine will have worn off though. Still, a great (if uncomfortable) video!
We just came to different conclusions with the show! It’s okay to like problematic media, I’ve got a lot of problematic faves.
@@hootsyoutube of course but it was such a guttural reaction, it doesn't feel like a friendly disagreement 😂 perhaps I'm reading too much in to it aha, I watched them one right after the other and it was a bit of a shock 😂
I thought the exact same thing! I have just watched José‘s Video and wondered why he promoted your video despite the completely different view on the show. But I guess being open for (or even promoting) is what makes José a good guy :)
Growing the beard comes from Commander Riker growing his beard from Season 1 to Season 2.
I think there's a lot of great points here, but I do kind of disagree with the idea that the show "hates women" (quoted for clarity, not to be dismissive). As with any 200+ episode sitcom, the attitudes and presentation are going to vary from episode to episode, from writer to writer from storyline to storyline. Sometimes Niles is an awful lech who's practically stalking Daphne, sometimes he's a well-intentioned romantic who acts as a voice of reason for Frasier. Because of the episode nature of the series, both Niles exist, despite being totally contradictory. So I think there is a bit of selective amnesia which can be done, which I don't think is even necessarily wrong. Like "man that time Niles filmed Daphne while she was asleep sure was shitty and unfunny, but this week he's offering her his coat while they're out on the balcony and really that was such a tiny moment 6 seasons ago." And largely, as much as I don't personally care for it, the Niles & Daphne romance does kind of earn it's pay off after a 2 season-ish arc. Where Niles and Daphne kind of end up finding each other in a way.
It's such a strange aspect of episodic television. That moments and episodes do just exist within their own context a lot of the time.
Then there's the fact that all the jokes about Lilith when she's not a guest star, are all just kind of trashing on her and making her sound horrible (which I suppose in the first season is at least somewhat understandable as they're recently divorced). But when she IS on camera (largely because her episodes are written by Ken Levine and David Isaacs who LOVE Lilith) she's sympathetic, and smart, and sometimes sensual. And Daphne and Martin just seem irrational for hating her so much.
Marris is never on-screen, but my personal feeling on the subject (that no one needs to agree with me on obviously) is that Maris is such a broadly-drawn absurdist cartoon that it's hard to even see her as human.
Julia is just... a bad character in almost every respect. And largely the horrible way she gets treated in season 11 is because the season 11 writers (who had been the season 7 writers and left to make another show or something before returning) hated the last half of season 10 and wanted to wipe it out from existence basically. That's why there's that super quick course correction on Roz freaking out about her too. But that episode with the sexual harassment seminar is just miserable in almost every way. It's not even witty or snappy, or clever satire it's just miserable. Even the "are you as turned on as I am" is a weird call-back/spoof of a line from the first season of Cheers.
So I think it's more fair to say, SOMETIMES the show hates women, but sometimes it doesn't and I guess as with many things it really depends on the writer.
----
Strangely, I think the idea that "nobody wants to be Frasier" is... weirdly part of the text? Frasier isn't like say, Sam Malone who is this paragon of a man. He's kind of George Costanza-esque where he's bald and while he's wealthy and intelligent and sophisticated he's... also a huge nerd. Even as an adult 40+ year old man he's a target of bullies. He's pathetic and women don't really find him attractive. I think actually thinking about it, probably the success of Costanza and Seinfeld did impact the writing, because when Seinfeld got popular is when Frasier started to lean much more in on that characterization. He'd get into more situations where he was wheeling and dealing, trying to score with women or messing up and ending up in gross compromising situations.
Frasier doesn't even have a girlfriend in season 1. And then he really only goes on one date in season 2, which he ruins because his ex-wife makes him act insecure. And the things he does in that episode aren't even *half* as depraved as some of the stuff he does later on. That's... so weird.
Chapeau
Yeah it only hates women if you look at those parts and ignore the rest of the show. But if you're doing that you can do it in other ways. The show hates men. The show hates black people. The show hates old people. The show hates young people.
So, would Games of Thrones' narrative contribution be called, "Schtupping the sister"?
3:49 Isn't Star Trek TNG the most successful spin off?
why would anyone waterski with a leather jacket on?
Wait, was it the resignation of William Brennan or Thurgood Marshall?
It was Marshall! That was my mistake 😭
@@hootsyoutube No worries. I was worried that I might have not gotten it right
Dude this hits. I am often feeling pretty shitty when I feel like there is no justice for a women. Im the only girl in the family. I work fucking hard. I still feel like there is no justice because if I have a critism it doesn't count.
“If I have a criticism it doesn’t count.” I mean just look at all the comments under this telling me I’m taking it too seriously or I’m too offended. Misogyny is such a cultural baseline that even saying it doesn’t appeal to you is treated like an attack.
Maybe they could have picked a better example than singling out a woman who was a serial domestic abuser and going on to laud "her truth" though.
This is such a great companion piece to Jose's video. His mostly focusing on the creators' intent, positive aspects and accolades while this is such a rug pull from that general level of comfort I had toward the show. Your video feels like the necessary final part of Jose's. His being "What was Frasier and why do people like it?" and yours "what's the greater cultural context of Frasier and why don't people like it?"
NOOO that's not Growing the Beard it's from TNG S3 with Riker!
This is an all-timer. Amazing work.
(EDIT: Also amazing reading/performances throughout, in terms of translating written text to voice.)
I knew Neil was Irish when I heard the voice, but then I really knew when I saw that Collins French Micro Dictionary.
Back again, freakin LOVE the music and audio editing of the intro song glitching out, as well as the music chosen for the historical context section including Anita Hill
it's like a reference to how you never see norm's wife, vera, on cheers
I don't really see how the show Frasier 'fucking hates women'. Is it just problematic media that we should recognize those aspects of and then enjoy the rest or should we completely stop watching something that actively hates women at every turn?
It's far less painful than Home Improvement.
Alright, I need to know.
What do Frasier fans think of this essay?
If you still think “I hate my wife” is an original, funny joke in the year of our lord 2023 then go with god, bestie.
Well, I'm curious about the different viewpoints. I know the show is still beloved, I know modern audiences still watches it, I'm curious how many agree with your points and how many don't, because Frasier is nothing new in terms of a 90s show aging in the lens of modern day.
Seinfeld, Friends, Married with Children, I'll even put Beavis and Butthead in there too because that's a show dripping with 90s humor that is just really dated in terms of, "a person born after 2000s will not see the appeal anymore."
Given time, all things age, and whether they age well or badly is dependent on the current social ideology of the masses. You look at sitcoms from the 70s in comparison to the 80s, then in comparison to the 90s, we'll find something in each decade, even in the best shows that still can be viewed by a modern audience of today as 'dated.'
But it's always dependent on if the meaning of the show was mean spirited, or done with a good intention in mind. You say much of Frasier wasn't done with good intentions, I want to hear if fans think otherwise, since I always hear the opposite of Frasier being less looked at as an admirable figure and more 'he's a massive baby that no one should look up to.'@@hootsyoutube
dude le epic reddit comeback! that's really witty, you should write for marvel!@@hootsyoutube
@@thatguywade5384 I'm a Frasier fan and honestly I felt like this was a dud. I liked the Harry Potter video so I wanted to watch more of her stuff but this one just missed the mark for me. A lot of jokes are taken out of context. Jokes that are "anti-women" are focused on while jokes from characters like Roz or Daphne that are "anti-men" are skipped because they don't fit the message of the video. Things like Maris being described as this weird person and never shown aren't exclusive to this show or to women. Home Improvement did the same with Wilson. That's just the unseen character trope.
And she claims that we're supposed to root for the 90s sitcom protagonist. That's the exact opposite of the point of Frasier. The show was made like a British sitcom where you're laughing at the main character and the stuff that goes wrong for him. Yeah you're rooting for him when you look at the show as a whole but in each individual story, you're laughing at the bad stuff that happens to him and Niles.
Also, it's unfair to just brand the whole show a shitty sitcom because you dislike parts of it while ignoring so many of the good things about it. Showing gay people in a 90s show and not just using them as stereotypes or the punchline of a joke. Showing interactions between different groups of people and the difficulties of having to interact outside your demographic. Examining character's emotions and getting behind the psychology of it all in a way that other shows rarely do.
A shitty sitcom isn't going to run for 11 years, outlast it's predecessor, win the most Emmys for a sitcom and become one of the most beloved shows of all time. The most it might do is run for a long time if it's something like Two and a Half Men. But based on her replies to people's comments, it sounds like she's unwilling to listen to any other views on the show. I forget sometimes that just because someone's good at editing a video essay, doesn't necessarily mean what they're saying is right. Like the stuff about Clarence Thomas. He's an awful person and that's awful what he did and that shows joked about it. But it has no place here. It just comes out of nowhere and has no direct connection to Frasier. It's just such a clumsy tangent added in.
@@joevictor53 I actually watched an essay about Two and A Half Men, specifically the baffling ending it has in its last season, and it's like night and day comparing that to Frasier when it comes to 'bad TV shows'
Like Frasier is so much more poignant about mocking social norms and classism, stuff she argues is really sexist and misogynistic, while Two and a Half Men in the meantime is SO BLATANT in its sexism and misogyny, it's the laziest shit I have ever seen.
You cannot tell me these two fit into the same category by this videos definition of 'terrible shows that aged badly.'
It's not the slightest hyperbole when I say I've been waiting almost 30 years for this. I was 22 when this show premiered and, as much as I loved Cheers, I was ALWAYS skeeved out by Frasier. It was that smug self-congratulatory Boomer Comedy vibe you guys touched upon (fuck Forrest Gump for that too, but that's a knish for another deli).
Everything about and around FRASIER was SO pleased with itself -- the stars, writers, producers, Hollywood, the entire TV industry. This thing CLEANED UP at the Emmys/Globes time and time again. The vanguard of television comedy in the 90s. The winky "even allegedly educated, sensitive, successful, nurturing men just wanna be boys too" vibe, so who cares who they demean, belittle, exploit, etc. Article after article about how Frasier and Niles were revolutionary because prime-time television was presenting two "bickering but dimensional gay men" in the guise of brothers. But then of course they had to pull out the 90s Television Cliche of Cliches -- the "STRAIGHT GUYS GET MISIDENTIFIED AS GAY AND HOMOPHOBIC HIJINKS ENSUE" that Seinfeld did earlier, but at least with more of a sense of internal recrimination than external snark.
Fuck this show.
You seem like you have a lot of anger in you.
@@frankbenham1745 Shall it be supposed that they lack the self-awareness needed to observe this surface level impression? Or are alienating implications a bit too drab to consider when posting a _charming_ remark?
@@freya8133 he kind of always got his comeuppance in the end. And despite his arrogance and toxic womanizing he did showcase progressive behavior rarely seen in the early 1980s.
@@sableonblonde1973 it's purifying, chickenbutt.
Well this got way darker than I imagined it could.
"I'm a genius in a bottle, you gotta make me a latte" I died
Excelente retrospectiva, acabas de ganarte una nueva subscriptora
Keep up the good work!!!
Thank you SO much for the subtitles! I always appreciate them!
Thanks for your honesty. I saw this vid shared on r/Breadtube and felt compelled to check it out. I am glad I did. You have a new subscriber.
Thank you for your work.
Did you and Jose just release a Frasier video at the same time? 😅
So many thoughts, I've been sitting here and trying to put them to words without much success.
It's so alienating and humiliating, being treated like a second class citizen, all while being told to lighten up, it's just a joke.
At the same time, it has gotten better. It really has.
Maybe that's why it hurts even more now. I used to take these attitudes for granted, but they hit harder when I don't expect them.
You have power to change things, but only if you are not working alone. Please consider joining a communist party and using the subsequent education to instill class consciousness in your friends and family.
@@justinwatson1510 how not to make friends 101, tell everyone you know how wonderful communism is lol
@@runswithraptors tell me you're lazy without saying you're lazy.
@@runswithraptors Actually it's "How to make amazing friends: 101"
@@justinwatson1510the communist calling someone lazy…. The hypocrisy is real.
Maturity is having to know the difference between what social cues to go by and what social cues not to go by. If you laugh at a show and understand clearly what humor is without getting offended or policing everything brought to the table then you are an adult. Now if you’re mind is as impressionable as someone abandoned by their father who never came back with the milk, then the show is not for you as a way of protecting those who will suffer your clay molded elementary mouth you have. Maturity is also understanding that humor is subjective, Frasier is a classy sitcom that shows intelligent humor. The concept of the show is that they are psychiatrists who show exactly what we all think of a psychiatrist. They listen, they give sound advice, they spread self awareness but behind closed doors they are despicable human beings like us. This is just your way to show people how bad a show is, if anything check out Saved By The Bell, Full House, and other kinds of sitcoms that degrade women, That 70’s Show and more. We’re aware of Frasier and their flaws but I think the show is clearly aware of that including the actors who enjoyed the show as most of us did
I am falling in love with your channel. The algorithm brought me to you and I am so glad it did
Uh. Isn't growing the beard a reference to TNG and Riker?
So the more I look into Frasier, and the more I watch the show, the more I think this essay about Frasier is... not entirely done in good faith.
For starters: No, Frasier is not 'bad' in a objective way. Its writing, humor, and exceptionally casted characters are written in a manner that is of very high quality. It's punchlines, delivery, and setups are very much rooted in the bases of classism, elitism, farcity, and all done in a way that doesn't talk down to the audience or make them feel stupid for not understanding something.
If it was bad, this show WOULD have been forgotten or not remembered highly by its fans, especially since it shared a lot of DNA with its predecessor Cheers, both from how it set up Frasier as a character, and the various writers that came over from Cheers. This was not a failure like Wings or The Tortelli's, two other spinoffs of Cheers.
As well, the mentioning of how the show can be sexist, misogynistic and even homophobic is questionable. Now, lines that have aged poorly, like the Lupe Vélez story that Roz shares is something that the show deserves flak for, because the facts of her death may have been more readily available by that point that they could check its authenticity, or maybe they found it funny enough that it didn't matter. Either way, that isn't good. BUT,
You cannot tell me 'The Matchmaker,' 'The Impossible Dream,' and even 'The Doctor is Out,' is primarily based around homophobic, gay panic jokes that are very low hanging fruit, and was written by lazy writers who did no research. The men who made these episodes were gay themselves, and wrote these episodes with a gay perspective in mind. Hell, Matchmaker made the gay man in that episode the straight man in terms of the comedy, while listening to the podcast 'Gayest Episode Ever' showed how gay men do enjoy these episodes, and even had GLAAD themselves commending the show for its writing.
Again, not to say the show is without criticism from a modern perspective, as there are elements that have aged poorly, but I cannot say in good consciousness that your essay is correct in its assumptions of Frasier being a bad show. Many of your points, like Clarence Thomas' nomination hearings, refer to how that affects the present, and shows like Frasier only confirmed the pop culture tendencies and values that undermine sexual equality for both women and LGBT people. We don't remember the problematic elements of Frasier, we remember things like Eddie, when I don't think that's really the case at all. I think it's less an issue of Frasier being bad, but rather an issue of confirmation bias. You went into the show with folded hands because you knew going in you weren't going to like it, and you found things about it that confirmed your hatred of these types of shows that advance the 'banality' of these so called 'lazy jokes and low-hanging fruit.' Much of which, I personally, disagree with tremendously, because it seems like a very over-generalization.
You went into this with a point, and you came out of it wanting to discuss a personal topic, but much of what you want to discuss doesn't seem to match up with how passionate fans view the show, or even research into behind the scenes work that went into the show from all aspects. It doesn't take into account THOSE aspects, and whether they match up or not with what you want to talk about. This is not to say you SHOULD like the show, because you not liking it is fine. This show does not work for your taste in media consumption, you don't like this humor, this is all well and proper. Where I think things get iffy is how you make many assumptions about the show and its fans, and combine it with your personal feelings for current issues like trans-discrimination and overturning over Roe V. Wade.
Doesn't help as well you kinda don't enjoy people disagreeing with you either, since I can see you reply in the comments constantly against detractors, some that deserve it, some that don't. But either way, this essay just seems like it was done with an agenda in mind, rather than an open-minded discussion about the values and issues of Frasier with a friend of yours.
Don't comment on shows you know NOTHING about the tradition they emerged from to begin with.This is why as well as the genuinely careful British comedy there was a Brit I sh tradition of more cerebral humour.
Jeez, I cried, thank you for this. Hated Frasier growing up.
This is outstanding. I've long had an issue with Kelsey Grammar. For one, I resented his depiction of women in the show "Girlfriends". I was also lukewarm about "Fraiser", but never really knew why. This video helped me piece together the "why". The show was insidious. This confirms to me that Grammar has consistently been a piece of isht. I wasn't even aware of '93 incident. Now everything adds up.
@@freya8133 I'm well aware that he wasn't the writer. However, as executive producer of "Girlfriends", there's no doubt he had creative input on characters, storyline, etc. The narrative adds up.
Ah yes, I love it when young liberal people try tell me what the zeitgeist of the 90s were like despite being two years old in '99.
Born in 1980, yeah, that was the zeitgeist. I didn't notice at the time because I was a kid and obviously more or less part of the same ideas. Not the worst show of the time, but the video is quite right.
While it is fair to discuss Kelsey Grammar’s sketchy past, I do think it’s unfair you don’t mention his early life as well. His childhood was absolutely horrifying. The following is from Wikipedia but he’s discussed this publicly several times. This includes a heartbreaking interview with Oprah where he discusses his sister and he completely breaks down.
When Grammer was twelve years old, his grandfather died of cancer. In 1968, his father was murdered in St. Thomas by a mentally ill cab driver. In 1975, his 18 year old sister was kidnapped, raped, and murdered in Colorado Springs. The two men are still in prison for this crime. In 1980, his two teenage half-brothers died in a scuba diving accident. At this point he was 25. How do you think that shapes a person?
Safe to say he has been plagued by alcohol and substance abuse problems. There are several episodes where he is not there because he was in rehab due to multiple relapses. The cast had to do an intervention on him. The cast have all said he was difficult to work with but they understood why he was the way was. This is not a defence of his alleged crimes, I feel you’ve painted half a picture of a man who’s faced extraordinary tragedy that puts most of our own issues to shame.
Yeah, as a survivor of sexual assault, I’m painfully aware of the way any tragedy in an aggressors biography will be used to absolve them. We are fodder to you. We exist as a foil to some man’s journey toward self actualization. We are not fully human. Only cardboard cutouts in the shape of a person.
@@hootsyoutube I am sorry that happened to you. Nobody deserves that and I hope you’re healing. I have been on the receiving end of psychological abuse for the past year from my own family and I have yet to fully process it myself and my comment shouldn’t be taken personally towards yourself.
My point wasn’t to dismiss the victim or treat them as “fodder”, it was more to say if we are to discuss this person, then should mention everything. Does he deserve to be in prison if he committed this crime? Of course. I just believe it’s worth mentioning if we’re going to assess him as a person.
@@mnvr-pd6wz when I bring up a 37 year old man who had sex with a 15 year old girl and your first instinct is to protect the man you should sit with that for a bit.
@@hootsyoutube When did I defend him? I didn’t, I’m not his lawyer. Ironically, I actually mentioned other bad things he did while on the set of Frasier which your own video failed to mention. My point was you’re talking about someone whose past is extraordinarily fucked up and is worse than most. Did that cause him to commit this crime? I don’t know. But it’s wrong to not mention it at all.
if he put on a wig and a dress and got sent to a woman's prison would that redeem him in your eyes?@@hootsyoutube
24:16 What makes this even more fucked in hindsight is that there was at least one primetime sitcom that *did* empathize with Anita & mocked everyone actually at fault; and it was fucking *Dinosaurs* . Like you KNOW you’re on the wrong side of history when a silly dinosaur puppet show on ABC has more intelligent and compassionate takes than you.
Designing Women also. A fantastic show that blows Golden Girls out of the water.
As someone that has to use subtiles for everything, that call out was hilarious 😂
Same, I loved the little look to camera xD
The earlier seasons were significantly better, I have to say-Frasier was less melodramatic, the story beats were less horrendous cringe and he wasn’t doing much romantically. He was one of many characters, most of whom were already more interesting than he was. The later seasons are just a desperate attempt to escalate and up the stakes more and more and it wasn’t as engaging.
Also, this whole thing was written by white gay men: often the worst offenders when it comes to casual sexism and othering of straight women.
But! I rewatch for Niles. That’s it. And only really the first 4 seasons.
And as a Trekkie I have to make the prerequisite “actually the beard was Riker’s” comment.
This video is kinda cringe
Just like you
No kinda in sight. There's some valid gems though.
Beautifully done
30:06
Damn, everything is cursed
Everything
There are truly no heroes in anything broadcasted
It's absolutely wild to me that a country that bays so loudly about freedom and democracy has its laws decided for it by nine people appointed for life by one of the two main political parties. When Ireland amended its constitution to make same-sex marriage legal and later to lift the ban on abortion, it was done via referendum. The people spoke and made their wishes clear.
Yeah except that's not how the Supreme Court works
21:53 "All the while, the men of KACL continue making disgusting degrading comments about their coworkers, and we're meant to laugh." We're meant to laugh at how pathetic and unsociable those two male characters are, because of the way they behave. I think this (deliberately?) bad faith reading of that episode encapsulates the attitude of this entire video. I mean seriously, Frasier is to mental illness what Jerry Springer is to poverty? That is such a wildly unfair characterization lol.
the sketch at the end felt straight up out of Nostalgia Critic, like, straight up, breakdown and everything
I'm 2/3 the way through, and really enjoying this so far. I do want to point out that Clarence Thomas was nominated to replace Thurgood Marshall on the Supreme Court, and not Brennan.
18:06 I feel called out. Though it's not my fault if the subtitles are that good.