Charan Ranganath: Human Memory, Imagination, Deja Vu, and False Memories | Lex Fridman Podcast
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- Опубліковано 16 чер 2024
- Charan Ranganath is a psychologist and neuroscientist at UC Davis, specializing in human memory. He is the author of a new book titled Why We Remember. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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TRANSCRIPT:
lexfridman.com/charan-rangana...
EPISODE LINKS:
Charan's X: x.com/CharanRanganath
Charan's Instagram: / thememorydoc
Charan's Website: charanranganath.com
Why We Remember (book): amzn.to/3WzUF6x
Charan's Google Scholar: scholar.google.com/citations?...
Dynamic Memory Lab: dml.ucdavis.edu/
PODCAST INFO:
Podcast website: lexfridman.com/podcast
Apple Podcasts: apple.co/2lwqZIr
Spotify: spoti.fi/2nEwCF8
RSS: lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/
Full episodes playlist: • Lex Fridman Podcast
Clips playlist: • Lex Fridman Podcast Clips
OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
1:03 - Experiencing self vs remembering self
14:44 - Creating memories
24:16 - Why we forget
31:53 - Training memory
42:22 - Memory hacks
54:10 - Imagination vs memory
1:03:29 - Memory competitions
1:13:18 - Science of memory
1:28:33 - Discoveries
1:39:37 - Deja vu
1:44:54 - False memories
2:04:59 - False confessions
2:08:45 - Heartbreak
2:16:19 - Nature of time
2:24:00 - Brain-computer interface (BCI)
2:38:04 - AI and memory
2:48:18 - ADHD
2:55:15 - Music
3:05:00 - Human mind
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Here are the timestamps. Please check out our sponsors to support this podcast.
Transcript: lexfridman.com/charan-ranganath-transcript
0:00 - Introduction & sponsor mentions:
- Riverside: creators.riverside.fm/LEX and use code LEX to get 30% off
- ZipRecruiter: ziprecruiter.com/lex
- Notion: notion.com/lex
- MasterClass: masterclass.com/lexpod to get 15% off
- Shopify: shopify.com/lex to get $1 per month trial
- LMNT: drinkLMNT.com/lex to get free sample pack
1:03 - Experiencing self vs remembering self
14:44 - Creating memories
24:16 - Why we forget
31:53 - Training memory
42:22 - Memory hacks
54:10 - Imagination vs memory
1:03:29 - Memory competitions
1:13:18 - Science of memory
1:28:33 - Discoveries
1:39:37 - Deja vu
1:44:54 - False memories
2:04:59 - False confessions
2:08:45 - Heartbreak
2:16:19 - Nature of time
2:24:00 - Brain-computer interface (BCI)
2:38:04 - AI and memory
2:48:18 - ADHD
2:55:15 - Music
3:05:00 - Human mind
Ww My parents said if I hit 4k, they'd buy me a professional camera for recording! Pls guys I'm literally begging you!! ❤❤hauaua
Fridman Fam my parents said if I hit 15k they’d buy me a professional camera begging you guys please!!.❤
When will you have a conversation with Jensen Huang, Lex? Can't wait for the show!
😎
You should interview kendrick Lamar, much love 🙏
Great guest Lex, im a fan of his work!
Lex bring more people like him for podcast! We enjoy the Scientific ones but these ones I feel can be more enjoyed by the majority of people since it can relate to our own paths and everyday lives. This one was gold thank you
Isnt that also science?
@@berendmainz540science/spiritual i guess
This is definitely science. Science can support the spiritual. Sometimes it misses the things that can’t be defined by logic & reason. This was interesting but I found it creating some anxiety in me. Not sure why.
I think he is talking about exact sciences like maths or physics
Rite-on, dood!🤓
I went back and listened to the “experiencing self” vs the “remembering self” multiple times. It never occurred to me that fulfillment in life can come down to having a rich remembering self, and that this richness sometimes requires experiencing some pain, discomfort, or an effort of some kind. Wise words to live by.
"was planning on it 😅"
Hi Elle-💕👍your post,but I feel I should clarify to U that many of us who have experienced this such fulfillment as U & Mr Charan claim u have to experience to have a more rich life,pain than richness of the soul,sucks! 🤔sorry✌️🦋
Human beings are being human. Time is
As a person that's been living with severe chronic pain and depression an anxiety for most of my life I can definitely say that I appreciate things much more than I ever thought I possibly could. The story that I tell to myself about myself is a good one because I overcome my struggles in the end by simply surviving.
I hope you feel better and get out of the cycles!
Cheers friend
Love to you!
I had gone thru panic attack, anxiety and depression and it’s hard. Your story inspires me!
How could the psychonaut pharmacist Christ heal us, i wonder. Because same. Im thankful for my disability journey. I always say "If every day is a struggle then every day is also a triumph."
It's not lost on me that this dropped on MEMORIAL Day weekend
Haha😂 awesome!
HA! it was on me but thanks for that!😊
I am not all the way through this yet, but if you are reading this comment, know that the value of this podcast is immense. Just the first 30 seconds alone where Charan explains how memories often cannot be trusted is an absolute game-changer. It is a direct path to the present moment - knowing that the past (even your own memories) may very well be an illusion. It helps you be here and now - allowing you to get the most out of each moment in life.
Lex, thank you for your great work, and I’m glad you are back from your trip.
Nicely said.
Nothing in this podcast hasn't already been explained by Vsauce.
@@delinquents212 thank you!!
@@General_Tso762 I agree, and it says the same thing in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, however the particular way it was said at this particular time hit and was a good reminder. Thank you for reading my comment by the way.
@@General_Tso762 Or... are you misremembering Vsauce's video?
This is a fascinating exploration of the human mind. Ranganath breaks down complex concepts into easily understandable terms, making this episode both accessible and profound.
I enjoy the way Lex conducts his podcasts, great questions and follows up with the reason why he asked them. By far my favourite podcast interviewer
Truly an artist. He's there as a person, and as someone trying to bring out the best in his guest.
You must be having a laugh
He's also my favorite and it's not just because how good he conductors podcast it's because how good of a man he is. He still has a boy just innocence and such a wise and old soul that he is one of my favorite people in the entire world actually. And I wouldn't say he has the innocence of naivety but he has the innocence of purity and goodness. He has great patience and judgment and is very slow to anger but when he is angry then you could bet that it is something that is very very very very bad and something the world needs to do something about. Although sometimes he could be wrong because he gets false information from other people when he does know the facts he chooses the right side every time no matter what or actually I should say you didn't choose sides he just States his beliefs
And most importantly he lets his guests speak
When lex came back?
Samantha says "the past is just a story," she means that our memories of the past are like stories we make up in our minds. They're not always exactly what happened, but they're the way we remember them and tell them to ourselves. It's a reminder that our memories can be flexible and might not always be 100% accurate.😮
Who's Samantha?
coming from a rough childhood I figured it out on accident or by my own nature. When you look at the past, keep the lessons, but put yourself in the shoes of the "actors" in your memories. Give them noble reasons instead of evil one. It help memories turn into wine instead of vinegar over the years.
We are all assholes, we just only see it in others
Interesting
thanks for this
A touch of "we're all Bozos on this bus". 😊
I don't get it, can you elaborate
That‘s what assholes do. Doing shit and cleanwashing it via a fabricated story. And then proclaiming that everyone does that. But it‘s not. Some of us do actually have standards and dignity.
I used to record my dreams. After years of doing this, I realized my Deja Vus were me dreaming the future. I couldn't control any of this. It just happened. Thanks!
I've started to have similar experiences/realizations. Part of me thinks it means I'm going the wrong way because if the deja vus are "dreams of the future" it means it's already happened so why go through the loop again? Idk I just don't wana be fucking myself somehow.
How do you feel about it?
same here
@@ayesha8809 in the collapse of dimensions, free of time and space, all experience happens at one point, at once. The bible commands us to pray as if we are in that moment experiencing our prayer being answered not just as a way to raise vibration by being in gratitude, but to resonate at the frequency that matches our desired future self & future timeline. It is by quantum leaping thru these doors that we can and do experience miracles.
It's strange to really allow for, but I think it has something to do with how time is apparently just an illusion? Everything that has happened and will happen has technically all happened at once. When my Mother died 3.5 years ago, the night before I had this really strange experience where in the middle of driving down the road I was hit with the super strong urge to call my Mom. It felt very sad. This was less than 24 hours before she died. Now for reasons I won't go in to here I hadn't been speaking with her for about 4-5 months. As a result of this feeling I stopped what I was doing and went home with the intent to call her. I got home and I didn't call her. The next day I get the call that she had passed. Someone or something some how knew, myself maybe even, or she herself already from the other side tried to warn me. It's now one of my biggest regrets that I didn't call her and get to talk one last time. It's possible that had I called her, the series of events that let to her death may have been altered and she'd still be here. What or whom was warning me and trying to get me to call her the night before? Was it me already knowing what was going to happen? Similarly to your deja vu dreams?
omg YOU are the 1st and ONLY other person besides ME that has ever understood or even SAID this!!! wow!!!! that's EXACTLY what my deja vus have been since I was in high school!!! so cool to know I'm not alone!!!❤❤❤😊😊😊
Almost 4 mil subscribers Lex. You deserve every one.
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ if Lex has 2 million subscribers he would be worth 1/2 of what we thought he was worth ………… let’s all go to Sugar rock Candy Mountain
It's fascinating to listen to Charan Ranganath about his deep knowledge and wisdom on memory and life in general. I love his scientific explanation of memory and the philosophy behind the theory. What a beautiful conversation this is! As always, I learn so much from you and your brilliant guest! Thank you Lex! ❤
For some reason I ran away from home when I was 3 or 4 - I can still remember it perfectly at 70. I wasn't unhappy, simply curious. My folks were distracted, so me and the dog ran out the door at sunset, me in my pajamas, the dog excited as could be. We wandered around the neighborhood 'till it got dark, and I was wandering along the main road with lots of traffic on it until my dad picked me up, very angry of course!
Such a strange thing to do - I wasn't mad, just excited to be out exploring. Must have been a strange sight for people driving by!
NB : Lex, I too have that problem remembering names, perfectly explained by your guest (what was his name again? 😊)
I really enjoyed reading your comment! Thanks for it friend. Glad your dog tagged along...that was cinematic. 🤠
I did the same , left home at 4, went down to the bush by the creek and thought I'd live there.im not sure if my dog stayed, too many weeds and dampness.when she left I stealthily snuck home and announced I had returned, my mother and her friend laughed at me. I was expecting to be welcomed and loved with concern.
Thank you very much Lex Fridman and Dr Charan Ranganath.
Lex your first comment about memories being a source of happiness like fruit to a tree, was extremly beautiful and inspiring, i feel your wisdom as you came out from the jungle, love you brother
I have epilepsy and right before I have a seizure I get de ja vu, except its like 20-30 of them in a row and usually will be something in the immediate future (seconds ahead) or a thought that I know will lead to another thought that will lead to another. When it’s coming on, I feel intense anxiety and nervousness.
Me too, I also smell like a burning tinfoil or something right before it happens telling me I need to immediately lay on my side, and if possible on my bed or something soft.
I also get a burning trash smell and light flickering in my eye
That kinda confirms the most plausible theory I’ve heard on dejavu that it’s your brain lagging behind your senses so you’ve already experienced what your dejavuing and your brain processing has to catch up for an iota thanks for sharing
Awesome podcast, Lex! Charan was a pleasure to listen to!!
Thank you Charan and Lex. Excellent conversation! The memories of my late father are precious to me. I'm thankful for our complex brain and its ability for the gift of recall. Human memory and emotion make us unique creatures on the earth!
I just checked your channel this morning to make sure you made it out of the Amazon and maybe posted a video and here you are! ♥️🇨🇦
I enjoy this channel, even when it hurts.
well said mate
This was an excellent episode. Great guest.
Waiting on the aya report
Saaaame
same
He didn’t do it
@@BandShoeshow do you know? He didn’t??
@@XX-bm4eo i dont
Lex, I hope you haven't forgotten about that additional content you were going to post from your Amazon trip. You mentioned it in the Introduction around the 1 minute mark of Episode 429 with Paul Rosalie. We want to see more.
I’m rereading Man’s Search for Meaning right now and I really loved your question about how to maximize the enjoyment of a memory.
In suffering, the parts of us that remember beautiful experiences can help us find so much meaning in suffering and experiencing the cold contrasts of life.
I really love the end segment of your shows when you "leave us with a word" of your selection. It may have been already suggested but I think a compilation of these end segments for a year end feature would be awesome. Like a video journal of thoughts and comments from notable people read in the deep svelte tones of the Fridman. Love the show and your work. thank you
Everything he is saying is spot on. I would also strongly agree the self is a continuously evolving construct. I think this is one of the factors of regret because we are different version of us tomorrow then we are today, good or bad, that mind state or construct around who we are always gets altered making us very different person who we are today vs 20 years from now.
I realized many years ago that time is not linear in our experience of life. Past, present and future interact and effect each other. In the present, we are always recreating the past and creating/changing the future.
A 'good' therapist can use this complex interaction to help a person; a 'bad' therapist can use this to manipulate a person (the classic example being false memory syndrome).
Since we are not alone in the universe, our experience of past, present and future interacts with and is influenced by the experiences of others, individually and as groups.
Humans are amazing because somehow we live together, and often achieve great things together, and manage to love, dance, cry, work, play together, even though our perceptions and experience of past, present and future (individually and as groups) are always changing.
Hi sdvanon, I just wanted to take this time to thank U on your intelligently and well written post. 💖it.
AI Generated?
Any ideas on retrocausality? Predicting the future a week in advance and then comparing actual events with predicted narrative?
Now 65, with thousands of photos, I want to add captions to all photos so I can watch a slideshow to reset my memory occasionally.
This intrigues me. Could you elaborate more? How do you mean reset? To what what end? If you still remember enough about the photos to add captions. Or perhaps its darker than that. If you're losing you're memory, you could write whatever captions you want and remember whatever memories you wish. God forgive me
Yes - I so regret it when a lot of photos are lost, as for instance the 128 gig microSD card with a few years of photos I lost recently - they were cues to important memories. Important to back stuff up!!
in the movie Her, she said - the past is just a story we tell ourselves. it has always stuck with me
Different movies, different words , in the movie "cats" they say "keep on" a lot , can't get out of my head , it's annoying
reality experienced is technically a story. we experience everything through story and narrative.
@@mrsaturn1792 In Joe Dirt he says Life's a Garden - Dig It and i think about this every day of my life
I once heard David Wolpert refer to this as "retrodiction". We don't recall the past as a matter of fact, we retrodict the past. In other words, our minds retrodict the past just like we predict the future. The only difference is, we have far more information on hand when retrodicting the past.
lol
I was a high achiever in school both in sports and academically. Instead of fostering it, they gave me ritalin. Absolute idiots.
Jesus I'm so sorry that's fucked up
@@ayesha8809 thank you
In the last 4 years, normally after a run, I will get Deja Vu. It normally happens when I see a scene that I've seen before. I notice the onset with a pleasant feeling - then it feels like i'm in a dream. I smell some type of copper? - a smell which I enjoy. It lasts for about 2 minutes then fades.
Hey Alex, have you considered making a podcast on the subject for human fear? The relationship between us and our phobias ,nightmares, etc?
Super excited to get into this one.
-Thanks again Lex, for always providing us with thought provoking content!
When I studied medical terminology and anatomy I relied on flashcards to go over and over. I would recall what I needed by humming or thinking of certain classical music pieces (like William Tell Overture) to remember certain facts for exams. It worked!
This was fascinating in so many ways. As a person born with epilepsy I appreciate the Deja Vu conversation and memory issues epilepsy can cause. I have big gaps in my memory and oftentimes I feel people want me to fill it in with their version of reality not really an objective one. Now I see we all remember things differently and the memories are loose somewhat.
I love listening to podcasts like this while I work, learning while earning! I always get excited when I see a new one out Lex, another great guest!
Haven’t seen someone this passionate about their field on UA-cam in awhile. Loved how excited he was to tell you about something. I need an fmri scan when I take acid I’ll gladly be tested. So curious to see what that would look like compared to a regular brain
Omg imagine what you'd trip on being inside that mri machine lol
@@lalithadityaakkireddi2252 I’d have a blast that’s for sure 😅😂
I'm going through a big pile right now guys...and I needed this. Thanks
Back from Amazon!
Same day delivery (because I just finished the previous episode)
I’d like to just take a moment to express how amazing it is to hear this man talk about Sonic Youth on Lex Friedman’s podcast
And Joy Division. And Pixies. And Velvet Underground 😮
He sings New Order covers, Im sold 🎉
I wonder if he has a version of "Confusion"
Интереснейший разговор.Нам действительно Вас не хватало.Спасибо Вам.
what language is this?
@@user-vv2pf1sy4m adidas loving soviet nutcases language
The 'owner of a lonely heart' reference was gold!
The feels on this one man.
Yes !
This seems to be suspiously thought provoking...best podcast in the world.
3 Hours of absolute Bliss..Super Thanks Lex...!
Two of my favourite EDM DJs in one video? A dream come true. Loved your performance on Coachella last year!!!
"The self is an evolving construct." Yes. Yes yes yes. A thousand times over yes. And, importantly, the self is a very social entity that we are not accustomed to thinking of as social. Which made this conversation a great listen for me.
As always, I find that many perceptions of the Buddhist approach to attachment, non-attachment, and their relationship to suffering are somewhat nihilistic as opposed to my lived experience, but I really appreciated how various ideas in here not only connected to my social psych education but also related to that foundational idea of interconnectedness I find in Buddhism. (World and drops of dew and all that rot.)
Thank you, Lex. This was great.
One of my favorites so far. Interesting to see the intro talk about how and why ppl can't and don't remember anything as a infant after seeing the Terence Lawrence interview. But I'm not here to judge or say he didn't I thought the JRE podcast was awesome too. Good work dudes I appreciate it!
You mean Terence Howard?
charan seems like a chill dude, we need more of him
Everyone is chill until u touch their pockets or say something they don't like,😯 that is why this podcast is so important🙏💖
It’s crazy to know we designed computers and AI to function like the human nervous system, yet the human nervous system is the very system man knows least about.
8:20 "Do things that are unpleasant in the moment, because those can be reframed and enjoyed for many years to come"
Loved listening to him sound so animated talking about music as well as his scientific areas of expertise!
I always thought we just have only a certain amount of working memory, and you are learning and gaining information at such an extraordinary pace in the first years of life that the human brain has to prioritize, the memories it retains in order to retain the most important.
2:13:10 “Owner Of A Lonely Heart” was written and performed by the epic progressive rock band Yes, *not* Bruce Springsteen. You’re the man, Lex! 💪
I caught that too 😅
Vice city
Hi there Mr Andrtson, thanks for clarifying the music mistake, I knew it wasn't the Boss(when I personallythought) he was cool! Mr Charan may know a lot about the mind but we know a lot about good music😉🙌
@@sylviaguenther-zc9lg You’re most welcome Miss Guenther! Have a beautiful day☀️🎶
@@johnanderson290 Thanks Mr Anderson,U made me Happy👍thanks for the respectful reply, it’s so nice of you to reply in a timely manner,don’t change it’s a very chivalrous of U✌️🦋🤗
Beautiful Lex! Yes, some memories will never fade 💕
Far more than a source of happiness, our memories are the source of misery, worry, and torment. We're incessantly run around and mentally controlled by it. Even remembering happy times is most often quickly followed by sadness of what's gone or how it all went wrong. Let's be honest with ourselves.
Truth! Especially if you’ve got health challenges, housing and food insecurity… It’s with FAITH, Music & Dance that helps many overwrite &/or build new neural pathways of thought❤🙏🏻✨🇨🇦
lol.
Glad to have you back from the amazonian forest! insightful content; Heart wrenching-my dog also died of cancer. This is one of my favorite subjects- neuroscience. ❤
Brilliant episode ,will listen to this again and again!
Hey! Room tour, please? I'm 20% curious, 80% excited to see what you've got! 🤩
What Bruce Springsteen, that was a Yes song Ranganath was quoting! Great episode.
Peace and Love to you all ♥️
Thank you both for this lovely mind stretch.
Prof Char im a new fan . You speak so clearly and logically I seem to enjoy this kind of conversation.
Welcome back DrL hope Amazon opened your eyes I wish you would share the experience, I think your back ? 😂
Not from my memories, but through some media every day in Taiwan, so I watch that every couples days upgrade information!
About Imagination vs Memory really clarified my thinking about hindsight. For a little while, I've been thinking that people punish themselves about not doing something in hindsight, but very often forget what reason they had had to do the action in the first place which could be perfectly reasonable. This could be a link to "remembering" the past being a hallucination (imagination) instead in which we omit the past mindset information. Journaling could really be powerful.
Very good Lex :This would be a good video for public schools teachers and parents to learn.
I’ve always been an outdoor’s men and enjoyed getting away from people. So all I remember from the pandemic is people who would have never gone to the places I go to, showing up and trashing the place. Great times.
Great content off late. Keep it up Mr. Fridman
Always splendide interview. Merci
Dear Lex, I've been listening to your podcast on Spotify, normally I do it while exercising, and today, to my surprise, I watched this video also on Spotify and noticed your drink. So, yeah, nothing more to say, but I guess it's time for me to find another podcaster. But you're doing a good job.
Impressive in-depth podcast
Great suggestive explanation on why we don't remember early memories 14: 45
This is such a fascinating and insightful interview. Thank you :)
This is an especially good interview. Thanks for sharing, Lex.
Great guest, very interesting, thank you Lex and Charan!
as to suffering for the story reminds me of an expression i heard somewhere in my youth - Let's not, and say we did. Definitely not the same story
i would love to have a beer with Charan.
Thanks Lex, really enjoyed this podcast on memory with Charan Ranganath, very interesting. Could you look at getting on Prof Sam Vaknin soon, he has a PHD in Physics and can talk about AI, phychology etc
8:02 that was one of the best motivation sayings that I've ever heard!!
Talk about bringing back memories. Lex mentions James Brown and Charan calls up the SNL hot tub skit with Eddie Murphey. HAven't thought about that in years.
Such a fun conversation and interesting topic. Immediately wanted to be friends with Charan. Really compelling to think of how, through the mechanism of memory, the past becomes the future (until it doesn't).
Also, I have a habit of choosing to do things that are absolutely a 'pain in the ass' in the moment for the sake of the memories, and my first thought when things go very wrong is 'ooh, this is gonna be a good story', so I shall skip away merrily with my validation, thank you very much!
This was so good! Thank you ❤
We appreciate all that you do Lex!
Lex, the 5 o’clock shadow looks handsome on you 👌🏽
And I hope to one day have someone like you in my life 😊
Your morals and ethics are what I admire the most. Your characteristics as an individual, from what I have briefly seen on this channel, are exactly what a man can be defined as. A true gentleman. And I hope to one day have someone like you in my life.
Hi,You sure are a lovely girl, I'm sure with such a nice compliment he 'd be a fool not to give U a shout out.Good luck💖😉
One Love!
Always forward, never ever backward!!
☀☀☀
💚💛❤
🙏🏿🙏🙏🏼
I have a form of Temporal Lobe Epilepsy that has intense, frequent Dejavú as one of the main symptoms.. I’m interested to see what he has to say
It's the second time in a row that someone says Lex is going to attack him. In the previous podcast, it was Paul who said it
Wow, this was soo interesting! And Charan was such a fun and great guy!
Welcome back beautyful
Thank you a lot
Your videos also have transcripts
really really enjoyed this one!! Loved the fun and jokes :)
Love the Green of the glasses picks out the Green of the plants in the background 👌
Great conversation chaps, thank you. As far as i can prove-ably say; this is the very first time i've ever been alive, and like most things i try for the very first time, i often eff it up!....but if i were to give up and never try again, then that would be a really tragic loss of the Gift...and if i keep effin it up, then i'm not learning how to get through the first multi coloured layer that surrounds the Gift. Also, i had to remember and be patient and remind myself that each of the multi coloured layers was not the Gift. I hope everyone recognizes the Gift when they 'see' it. For me, the truth was that the Gift was always in my hands the whole time: CREATIVITY
Hi there detective, loved your nice & well written post,very interesting how I break it down and put it together.☺
@@sylviaguenther-zc9lg Hey hi there! many thanks for those kind words. It's always encouraging to know that some people feel the same too..😁
@@GlassEyedDetectives hi absolutely so nice of you to take the time to reply in such a respectful manner✌️🦋
Great episode, very informative.
Lex this was a really good one!!!
Lex please get someone to about the developments in BCI especially neuralink
Indian dhoti learn to behave! And teach your fellow Indians as well.
Great guest, Lex! It was a pleasure
cool guy, not only sophisticated but also funny and entertaining!
This, in my opinion, is one of your best...dang I forgot what I was gonna say