Sourdough Poolish Pizza Dough
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- Опубліковано 20 жов 2024
- Today I experiment with Poolish sourdough pizza dough. Rather than use standard yeast to make the poolish preferment, I use sourdough. The result was a really strong sourdough taste which at first I thought would be too strong. After I ate most of my pizza I realised that it was actually really good and added some great flavour to the overall pizza.
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Fun experiment! .. Nice to see you playing around with sourdough aka 'natural fermentation' .. By my calculation, assuming the dough took all the water you planned, it came in at 64.5% ( [515+140+25] / [515+515+25] } .. You mentioned 16g of the 50g of the starter being water, but at 32% hydration it would have required kneading in order to be mixed, whereas it looked quite liquid in the tub and when you poured it into the bowl .. I am guessing closer to 100% hydration (hence the 25+25 in my calculation above) .. In terms of readiness, starters really need to triple (or thereabouts) in order to reach peak .. looking at your tub, yours only doubled .. You also noted its sour smell which tends also to be a sign of being underfed and/or over fermented .. I would also recommend using the same flour in your starter as in your dough, so as to avoid not introducing any new yeasts and bacteria into your culture, which can sometimes create a problem .. While I understand your reason for calling it a poolish, and your math for getting there, you are essentially feeding and building a larger amount of starter out of a smaller amount (at a ratio of approximately 1:10:10) .. Looking at how loose your poolish had become after 24 hours, and receded down the bowl i.e. had gone past peak, I am wondering if therein lay the challenge with the final dough pieces, which seemed to lack much sign of fermentation activity, in terms of how tight the dough was and the volume of the dough piece .. during shaping there should have been a lot more gas to push to the edges .. Perhaps not surprising given the relatively high 50% inoculation (percentage of starter to total flour) as well .. If you decide to repeat the experiment I would recommend getting your starter on a twice daily 1:2:2 feeding routine for a couple of days before hand; and catching your poolish closer to peak .. One other thing, even though 65% might be your regular hydration for your Manitoba flour, natural fermentation takes much longer and takes place in clusters, particularly with high gluten forming flour. Which is why hydration tends to be higher than with yeasted doughs .. it needs the hydration to ensure even and optimal fermentation throughout the dough .. So next time, maybe also consider pushing the hydration to 70%, and leaving the dough in the bowl during bulk and giving it a few revs with the spiral .. Just a few thoughts ..
What a fabulous post, full of information. I've read what you have written a couple of times and I think you are spot on. I did feed the starter to try and get to ready, but I have to admit that I tend to fridge it most if the time and feed before use. It's probably not at its peak by any stretch. My rough calculation on the 50g of starter was based on how I fed it before hand which was 1:1:1 so 100g of the starter, rye flour and water. 50÷3 = 16g so a rough calculation. I was very surprised to see that there wasn't more gas and that the balls didn't rise. Clearly my timings are off too. My reasoning for switching flours half way through was to have something stronger for the preferment and something weaker for the final ferment. I didn't think about what you mentioned with regards to introducing something else.
I will read your post again and have a think about having another go, but I think I need to get my starter in tip top condition first lol.
Thanks again for your detailed comment, it's a great help and great feedback 👍
@@PizzaRamblings When calculating hydration you have to take into account the amount of flour and water present in the starter, as well as the flour and water added to feed it .. So, assuming you are feeding a 100% starter (equal weight of flour and water) and you add equal weights of water (whether 1:1:1, 1:2:2, 1:3:3, etc in terms of starter : flour : water) the fed starter will still be comprised 50:50 flour and water .. Another thing to consider is rye .. Useful in small amounts (eg 5-10%) to pep up starter activity when in starter maintenance mode (because of extra amounts of amylase present in rye, the enzyme that converts starch to sugars), but not ideal when you are building a starter for a bake, particularly in larger amounts due to the fact that rye flour contains considerably less gluten .. maybe offset by your use of manitoba, but unless you are particularly drawn to the flavor of rye in your pizza dough, for the reason explained earlier, best to stick to feeding your starter the same flour(s) as in your final dough .. In terms of what kind of final flavor profile you are going for, it's a matter of experimentation with three key variables: the hydration of your starter, the time/frequency of feeding, and the temperature .. Generally speaking, low hydration (50-70%) and cooler temps will yield acetic (vinegar type), and lactic (dairy type) flavors and sometimes CO2 as well; whereas higher hydration (70-100%) and warmer temps will tend to produce just lactic flavors .. Higher hydration starters require more frequent feedings but are easier to incorporate into the final dough, and you can still produce the classic sour taste by simply extending the feeding schedule .. Lower hydration (aka stiff) starters are low maintenance, require less frequent feedings and do well in the winter temps, but require a bit more effort when it comes to feeding (kneading versus stirring) and then incorporating into a dough (need to be broken up and mixed well) .. Talking of stiff starters .. aka a "biga" .. how about that as your next experiment, but using natural fermentation instead of yeast?! I can give you some baker's math if your are interested ..
Thanks for the detailed reply again ☺️. I typically feed it 50/50 rye and regular pizza flour (00). So do you think it's best to reduce the hydration and feed 1:2;2 ? Am I doing the right thing storing it in the fridge?
Yes I'd love to have a go at some BIGA done with SD. Sounds like a great idea. If you can help with the math that would be great.
Thanks for the help.
@@PizzaRamblings Hi there .. here you go .. two versions, depending on whether you plan to use a liquid (100% hydration) or stiff (50% hydration) starter ..
100% Biga WIth Sourdough Starter
Total flour weight: 1000g
Total dough hydration: 65%
Inoculation: 15%
Salt: 2.5%
Biga With Liquid Sourdough
Liquid starter (100% hydration): 150g
Water: 425g
00 flour: 925g
Dough
Water: 150g
Salt: 25g
Total dough weight: 1675g
Biga With Stiff Sourdough
Stiff starter (50% hydration): 112g
Water: 463g
00 flour: 925g
Dough
Water: 150g
Salt: 25g
Total dough weight: 1675g
As a guide (in both cases): Mix the biga, cover and ferment at cool/room temp for 24hrs .. Mix in the remaining water and salt. Bulk for 2 hours .. Divide and ball .. If using immediately, final proof for 4-6 hours until at least doubled .. Or, for more flavor, final proof for 2 hours, then cover and retard in the fridge for 24-48 hours. Remove from fridge 4 hours before baking, to bring dough to room temp and complete final proof.
Wow thanks very much, I will find time to do this. On question. You mention inoculation 15% I'm not familiar with what you mean here. Any pointers?
AHH I see it 150g of starter is the 15%
Hello my friend! What is the make and model of your Pizza Oven again? The Pizzone ?
It's a bollore. They dony make it any more sadly.
Gotcha ok thx@@PizzaRamblings
Thanks for all your great videos. Just to confirm, all of your fermentation in at room temp. Is that correct? Do you ever ferment in the fridge?
Thanks for the kind comment. Yes, if you look back in the videos I've done 72hr, 48hr, all done with a combination of room temperature and fridge.....
Awesome! Did I get it correctly, the final hydration was at 65 %?
It's a long time back but that's my go-to hydration so I suspect you are correct 👍
where did you get your gi merch? cheers great vid as usual
Local to me in Manchester amatoproducts.co.uk/
Nice job! What is the exact make and model of your Ardore oven? I see your Ardore looks bigger than what I've seen online from Ardore. Thanks !
Hi, thanks. It's not an ardore it's a bollore and they don't make it anymore 😭
@@PizzaRamblings ah ok thank you!
Out of all the flours you tested. What would you say which brand of Caputo Flour works best for 65% Hydration at long fermentation?
Good question, super nuvola for long fermentations, or their Manitoba which has a high W index and plenty of protein. Manitoba is one of my favourites as it can manage 75 to 80% hydration with some effort.
@@PizzaRamblings Thank you so much!
Can you please write in description the total of flour and water you have used with 20g of sourdough, to make your pizza . Do you add flour and water on your poolish
Thanks for the video. How about using a sourdough starter for making Biga? What would be the difference between using fresh yeast?
Thanks for the idea, it's not something I have done. Would need to try an make it first to see how it comes out . Thanks for the feedback.
I have noticed that you take temperature of all your dough, what is the importance of it, and what is the ideal temperature, and what happens if it is to low or high? Thanks. Great video as always. Keep up the good work.
Hi David, yes the mixer heats the dough up while it's mixing so the idea is to try an keep it under 26c. If you finish mixing at 25c ish it kick starts the yeast off. So even though my room temperature is 18 to 21c the heat helps get things moving. If your dough gets too hot ,I understand that this can have negative effects on the yeast. Here is a great read about dough temperature.www.theperfectloaf.com/the-importance-of-dough-temperature-in-baking/
Cheers
Interesting read cheers.
I hope all is well.
Waiting anxiously for your next video!
I'll get something out soon, all good just had a bit of creators block and burnout lol.
How about trying to create something gluten free that’s edible 😅.
Not my cup of tea but it’ll get loads of hits. Gluten free seems to be quite a fashionable ailment these days
Or perhaps a gluton loaded Calzone! 👍🏻
Calzone sounds good. I should have something in out on the next day or so..... And I have another lined up 👍
Hi there. Well done! Could I ask you which pizza dough mixer do you use please? Thanks
Hi, sure it's a famag im5s which is the high hydration model. This is multi speed, but they do a single speed version. It will make up to 5kg of dough. Hope that helps. Cheers 👍
@@PizzaRamblings seems like a sweet mixer!
Yeah it's really good 👍
Well done Sir !
Thanks very much 👍
Mr. Ramblings do you prefer Manitoba or superior given they have almost the same W rating....
Hi there, I probably use Manitoba more as it's stronger, the le5 Manitoba is is something like w440 so stronger than the Caputo one.. Manitoba is great for preferments and high hydration. However superiore is great flour for a 24hr + fermentation at 70% + hydration.
So for me Manitoba, then superiore. Cheers
Nice video love them. Why you can not go over 25 or 26 degrees? Thanks
Thanks, you probably can but I think the heat cause issues with the yeast. 25c seems to be the target point. It's warm enough to kick star the yeast and get things going. 👍
Thanks. I asked because I see many people put the water at already 27 or 28 but not for this kind of pizza. Thanks
AHH right, I start with ice water as the mixer introduced heat from the friction. Cold water give me longer to mix and get the gluten strong.
I have been wanting to try sourdough starter for a while. I am not too crazy about the flavor being too sour and heard that the taste is governed by the acidity of the starter. Can this be managed?
I'm no expert, but I'm sure it can by using less water. Great article here www.culturesforhealth.com/learn/sourdough/how-to-make-truly-sour-sourdough-bread/
@rbiv25 .. In short .. "Yes! Absolutely!" .. It is unfortunate that "sourdough" is often singularly associated with "sourness" .. "sourdough" (despite its name) is more accurately a way of making leavened bread utilizing naturally occurring yeasts and bacteria, present in the flour and the surrounding environment, instead of commercially prepared yeast (in either powdered or block form) .. The "baker's craft" in using natural fermentation, is knowing how to combine and manage the variables of different flours, hydration, inoculation (how much starter to use), in addition to time, temperature and technique, to create an array of breads comprising a range of textures and tastes, that are coincidentally healthier than their yeasted counterparts ..
P.S. Really enjoyed the sound production .. what is your source of background music?
Thanks, I use these guys www.epidemicsound.com/music/featured/
Great! Thanks! .. I would love to listen back to the music you selected for this video .. do you recall the category/thene you chose from?
No, but I have the names of the tracks that I used on my iPad. Should be able to get them for you.
@@PizzaRamblings Thanks!!
@@PizzaRamblings Would love to check out the background music list for this vid when you have a sec .. Thanks!
Hey Buddy! Have not seen you in a while, still posting videos ? :)
Hi, I know I've slowly let it slip a bit. I did have a top tips video in the pipeline but need to finish it off. I also have BIGA with sourdough planned. Weather is getting better I'll get something out soon. Thanks for checking in. 👍👍👍
@Pizza Ramblings awesome man! Love your channel , great content and glad you are well bro! Keep it going:) Thanks for all you do! You test great recipes of Pizza !
Thanks very much, that's the encouragement I need 😊. I did a video almost every weekend for a year, it's tough going..... 👌👍👌🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺 Oh and 🍕🍕🍕🍕🍕🍕 can't miss the pizza.
@@PizzaRamblings all the best. Keep it going, you made for it :)
Hi! I have a question... Is it easy to maintain the temperature using wood to make several pizzas? How do you do it? Thank you very much for your videos, I am learning a lot!
Hi, It's not too bad, but it is one more thing that you have to have on your mind while making the pizzas. I find that using a flame guard helps, without that it's easy to burn the sides of the pizza, especially in a smaller oven. Also priming the wood helps, this is putting a log in away from the flame to dry it out. Then when you need some fast heat this log will flame instantly once added to the fire or embers if it's accidently gone ourt. It's easy enough after you have had a few goes.
I'm not use to these new smaller wood ovens like the ooni. I think that the smaller bits of wood will burn quick meaning that you need to be topping up with fresh wood more often and say an oven that will take a few logs. Good luck 👍
@@PizzaRamblings
Thank you very much for your answer. I don't own an Ooni but I'm thinking of buying one similar to yours without the gas option.
I hope to see new videos from you soon!
Nice, it’s a good oven when running on wood. If you can get the biscotto floor, it’s much harder to burn the pizza base.
@@PizzaRamblings Oh! Thank you very much for the advice, I'll keep it in mind.
Can't wait to try your pizza recipes on a wood oven!
How do I make the polish? You left that out!
Hi, The first part of the video is making the polish.
Love your videos I wish the music wasn't in this video
Thanks, I didn't use to have music, but then people started to ask for it lol 😂
I've conducted this experiment as well. For pizza and pretzels. On both occasions, the dough didn't seem to rise much. Maybe the starter was too cold, but regardless, the flavor was phenomenal.
And I substituted the lye solution to boil the pretzels in for "Cal Mexicana" (lime hydroxide(?)) that was easily accessible at my local Mexican supermarket(s). Google says the alkali solution results at 12pH and that's good enough for me. Phenomenal flavor and chew. I used bread flour to make the sourdough preferment. Bread flour for the rest of the dough, with some diastatic malt.
Can you tell us about the gas in your oven?
Sure, it's a pizza party bollore, it's not made anymore 😭 however they are making other gas and wood ovens. Have a look at their website and see what you can get. It's a good oven with saputo biscotto floor, it's will run off gas or wood, you simply remove the burner if you want to use wood. 👍
@@PizzaRamblings
Thanks, I like the Bollore. I wish they still made it, the multi fuel and look is better than the current gas options on the site.
Are you all done making great videos?
I am for the moment, I might return at some point, but not at the rate as before.I did 1 video a week for a year and started to struggle for content and needed a break. Thanks for asking and your support 👍
@@PizzaRamblings i seen that and i bet that's hard to do. Well i hope to see you back on at some point because your information is on point and helpful
Many thanks, it's good to hear. 😁
Why, why, why did you add the all-to-loud background music? Could barely hear your voice!
Sorry !
Absolutely no need to apologize - simply wanted to provide you with my feedback. Thank you!