Speaking as someone who is not a content creator by any means, but is an oldest daughter with two younger brothers, Justin's quote breaks my heart. To think that their fame has reached such heights that they can't just be a normal family anymore because their family is now a company and a brand is just so sad to me.
It makes me think of Michael from The Godfather, who stopped caring about the family and tried to be all business and it just left him a lonely bitter old man.
He didn't say he wasn't his big brother anymore. He said he couldn't *just* be his brother "and tell him to keep his chin up". They're still brothers. They're also business associates. When people play more than one role in each others' lives, they have to properly play all of those roles. Neglecting to play one of them because it's uncomfortable is just that: neglect. Talking to your adult brother about the adult business you run together does not negate your relationship as brothers - neglecting to do so would make you a bad business associate and also kind of a bad brother. This isn't sad. This is adulthood.
Damn, and I saw this comment at the same time she was talking about the dangers of Parasocial Relationships. Thank God Soctopus is a G like that, that’s just how tight we are!
@@GreatBookerWow, I’m so glad my close friend GreatBooker corrected me and me specifically on how to spell Socktopus’ name! Isn’t my best friend awesome :D?
I feel like half the comments are “OMG I love the McElroys, I didn’t know people turned on them! What happened?” And the other half are “lmao I don’t know who these people are, I’m just here to watch the Canadian”
I like people with long brain. I have long amount of disl*kes btw. Why? Maybe people with short brain disl*ke because jealous of my long amount of subscr*bers. Please have long brain, dear 2ol
Imagine saving up money at your dead end minimum wage job to go see your favorite podcasters live and the show is full of other fans trying to show they are the main character
I can think of it similar to my wife and I getting to see some of our favorite voice actors…and 90% of the questions are “How can I become a V.A.?” or “I have some demos you can check out”
me: i know almost nothing about these men let’s see what she has to say Sarah: Lin Manuel Miranda snuck two McElroyisms into Hamilton She Strikes Me Right Between My Ribs
I have never watched an episode of this podcast and have little to no idea who these people are or what they do but Sarah really pulled me in with that one what a wild ride
see, this is in contrast to my "i love these men and have consumed hundreds of hours of their content, and literally know nothing about this... I also saw BDG in the comments-love him too. I'm fucking terrified of what's to come in this video
i think part of the reason BDG’s “you’re not my friend and you have no say over what i do with my body” got some backlash is because people found him through the mcelroys, and his explicit setting of boundaries was kind of a shock to some fans who were used to griffin your dm and best friend. and i know griffin was being somewhat facetious there, but the impact was still people seeing him and his brothers as friends
Main take away from this video: I'm glad I've always experienced McElroy Brother content in a vacuum by myself and never got involved in the fandom lol.
fandoms: not even once (i mean kidding, but also fanspaces can get real weird and sometimes it's best to take a look around the room, realize it is a Bad Vibe and take your leave)
Same! I didn’t even know all this was going on because I never engaged in fandom as far the the McElroy’s were concerned. I don’t even follow them in Twitter as I don’t have an account.
I'm mostly used to people turning on e-celebs because they turned out to be secret klansmen, terf Karen's, or rapists. Hearing the McElroys are being mildly iffy businessmen or kind of pretentious is honestly a nice change of pace.
Yeah while I totally understand criticism of certain things, I was left thinking that this is more the result of how you frame yourself. Trying your best to show yourself to be the wholesome, trustworthy, woke and progressive fellas, it means people will be so much more aware when you screw it up. Screw ups that would be criticized but quickly forgotten are much bigger deals. Sure, there are things that are worth critique, but it's all so much bigger and grander than it would have been if they didn't encourage such a parasocial fanbase.
@@brandongolden7867 I'm assuming you arent native and havent, for example, been ridiculed for your culture/customs? havent been repeatedly harassed by white cops because you dont have a tribe card? because your grandfather was stolen from his tribe to be raised by christians which was done to breed/train the "savagery" out of native people? and now your tribe doesnt even have a council? Eventually had to move away from your family to get away from racist small town cops and finally try to build a life? do you have to defend companies like amazon because its one of the only places you can get a job without being called a "lazy plains N-slur" to your face at work by people doing half the rate that you are? no BRANDON i dont think its funny. if you have to alienate a group of people for your joke, you arent funny.
You know that tumblr post of that photo that says "I don't know who the McElroy are and at this point I'm too afraid to ask" and the OP rb with the comment "I've been informed this is in fact one of them"? That's literally all I know about them
I feel like every discussion of parasocial relationships needs to be accompanied by the clip of BDG saying "I'm not your friend and you have no say over what I do with my body"
bdg saying that was the first step in a very tough but beneficial journey i took in distancing myself from content creators and developing more healthy (for myself) parasocial relationships. i think about that moment ALL the time
"I, uh... I don't love my fans. I have to be... I don't. You don't want that. You don't want that desperate, sort of cloying thing from an entertainer. "My fans, oh, they stick with me through everything, through thick and thin." Do not stick with me through thick. If I stop entertaining you, throw me to the curb. You wouldn't stick with your mechanic if he stopped fixing your car. I'm in a service industry. I'm just overpaid, okay? I feel a lot of artists, pop artists especially, sort of infringe upon responsibilities that just aren't theirs, in terms of their audience, maintaining their audience at an emotional level. Some of you might be sad, and going through things. I feel for that, life is tough. I'm not gonna fix that with a song." - Bo Burnham
Try being a podcast journalist! It's wild what things are considered a big deal or have huge fanbases if you aren't actively seeking out things in said fanbase. If one doesn't hang out on TikTok and pay attention to podcast charts it'd be easy to assume The Magnus Archives is just some random audio drama with a huge backlog, or that TAZ is a meh D&D podcast with a big network propping up its download numbers.
I can't imagine! I spend a lot of time on tiktok (unfortunately) and my only real exposure to this fandom is through my friends who are a part of it and as such the algorithm sends more fan content my way. I guess I was just spared the controversy because my peers seem to be genuinely invested in and enterntained by their content so I just assumed all was well... never a safe assumption on the internet I guess
I once attended a TAZ live show where the brothers prefaced right off the bat that they wouldn’t be able to meet and greet after the show because of travel and having very young children. The crowd responded in a loudly disappointed way that made the brothers clearly uncomfortable, to the point that Griffin had to say something in their defense and I felt pretty embarrassed to be lumped in with a crowd that would try to make them feel bad for having families. (I also don’t know how to describe it the crowds response wasn’t just an “aww” but also not a full “boo” though I think I remember a few folks boo-ing)
God forbid these guys wanna be present and genuine fathers, but I get it, nobody in a fandom understands what having one of those is like. (/j. I also do not have a father, so for anyone reading this who wants to screech, go false-woke somewhere else. ♡)
it really freaked me out how people infantilized these guys, they're grown men with families and seeing teenagers call them "uwu cinnamon buns" was super SUPER fuckin weird. It's not like they were put on a pedestal, it's more like young fans... forgot??? that they were adult men and not their pocket pets.
If their children are a concern, why did they do a liveshow tour? Don't they at least have a manager? That's something you tell people before a show or have your manager announce before you come out to avoid this. You'd have to be around for awhile to notice this, but they will use anything as an excuse to put forward less effort. They are entitled to it, but over time people care about them less and less. So their lack of effort is coming full circle.
Justin specifically said that about food delivery services while in the middle of a Munch Squad where he read a Pepsi press release in its entirety. Seemed kind of ironic
@Dani Masterson Absolutely, but if you've got a platform with a lot of viewership you've also got to consider whether your efforts to specifically shame a particular brand just amount to free advertising. Plenty of attempted boycotts and the like for all sorts of issues completely backfire. The most obvious example that springs to mind is PETA (of course) giving families in Flint conditional clean water.
"People auditioning to be the 4th McElroy Brother" is way too generous. Questions during live shows felt like kindergarteners who don't know how to ask questions and instead want to overshare at the expense of the audience.
@@toppersundquist that doesn’t happen, the audience is banned from self-promotion at the risk of being heckled and getting edited out of the show. Tell me you don’t listen without TELLING me
as a guy in a wheelchair, whenever i meet someone i flash a quirky side smile, press my pointer fingers together, tilt my head and ask “y-y-y-y-your prob-b-b-b-b-b-b-bably w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-wondering about the wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wheelchair, huh?” my eyes then proceed to roll back in my head as i recite the wikipedia entry about my genetic condition and it’s history in the classic british man text to speech voice for the next hour and a half.
ooh, CIDP sufferer here! Came to tell ya how relatable this comment is 😅 especially the part where your eyes roll back as you describe your malady for an uncomfortable amount of time!😂
@@hotpocketsat2am The fucked up part is he just has it memorized from an older version of the article. He wasn't even reading anything, it just lives inside his brain.
i was wondering why “brothers who played dnd for an audience” sounded so familiar even though i don’t know these guys but i just realized... i own their book. i purchased the graphic novel version of “the adventure zone” completely unaware of its origin
@@Melanie-yep it was pretty good as far as i remember, ironically the art was my favorite part even tho it was the only part not present in the podcast lmao. the dialogue makes a lot more sense in context as family joking around now tho
@@caviicape I will say, the first book had to do a lot of retcon and rearranging dialogue-wise to get rid of extraneous stuff, try to tighten up the pacing, change some stuff copyrighted by wizards of the coast, keep the tone my consistent with later parts of the podcast, and get rid of some stuff that no longer made sense with the later world-building. Not to forget that tone doesn't translate well into text and (as Sarah Z said) a decent part of the McElroys' humor comes from their very distinctive speaking style. All-in-all, I found that this made a lot of the dialogue feel very awkward and stilted, and it really just loses a lot of its humor and and charm in being translated to the page. So yeah, the art is way better in the dialogue in the graphic novel (but also the podcast itself is v good)
Feel like this hot take about parasocial relationships manifesting not just as perceived personal friends but personal enemies is a rather poignant point... Gonna sit on that one for a while
I don’t know about it though, because a lot of the cancelling behavior people engage in isn’t anything they would ever do to someone in their real life. Like, I don’t think any of the people who called Lindsay Ellis a worthless, disgusting, abhorrent bitch and said that Sarah Z was next would say those kind of things to people they actually know personally. Like sometimes I think the degrees of separation in parasocial “relationships” actually allow people to dehumanize celebrities and influencers and place them on an untouchable pedestal that makes it acceptable to hurl abuse at them because they don’t think they could ever really be affected. Idk I think there’s flaws in the parasocial model, especially when applied to fans/followers turning on or cancelling celebs and influencers.
Internet hate isn't limited to being parasocial, there can definitely be dehumanization and the idea that you wont face repercussions from your hate too. But like, for example, the backlash Contrapoints got from her own viewers for working with a transsexual sex worker (whose name I can't remember)? Seemed mostly to be coming from people who felt like she would 'be safe' and never do anything they disagreed with or have different ideas about a topic. That hate was bolstered by people not feeling like they'd be held accountable (because of both behind a screen and mob mentalities), but a lot of it came from a sense of parasocial betrayal.
@@elspethtirel2461 iirc, that was Buck Angel, a trans man that has a history of anti-NB takes. NB fans of Contrapoints were not really happy that she had him on for a voiceover, at least those that already knew of him and his reputation. That being said, it got a lot of nastiness directed at Natalie that went way beyond criticizing her for having him on.
I'm seeing this happen a lot in Vtuber fandoms, with fans sending Superchats requesting that the talent do stuff like reciprocate romantic feelings or dedicate a song in a karaoke list to the sender's deceased friend. It's important to remember that celebrities aren't your friend: it's fun to follow them and it's cool if they address you specifically, but in the end they're doing a job and they have no obligation to dote on you specifically.
@@earthDF I hate how that kind of backlash turns into a perception of "group X fans" as if all people in group X think the same. A lot of us think the drama was unreasonable - the haters are just the loudest voices that speak over the rest of us.
I once watched Griffin give a talk at some university about his podcasting career, trying to be as insightful and uplifting as possible, and once the Q&A section rolled around half the people bombarded him with completely unrelated questions about his favorite pokemon or whatever. This one person straight up said they didn't have a question and then tried to force "fuck, marry, kill" with his family's taz balance characters on him... absolutely unhinged
That one is almost surreal, he was just talking earnestly about stuff like creator burnout and the death of his mother but instead Q+A is a bunch of jokers trying to be funniest in the room
@@DendyJungle Aw man, don't say that stuff. Internet stardom is still kind of relatively new and not understood, I can't blame the guy for amassing a fanbase like that just bc he was doing what he thought was best.
@@DendyJungle hey maybe saying that someone being asked their favorite pokemon after they just finished giving a talk involving topics like their mothers death "deserved" to be asked that simply due to their brand of comedy is uh. shitty perhaps!
I feel like I am extremely in on the joke with this video. Saz will say "the kind jokes and teasing you really only get from siblings" and I'll go "ah yes, dry fettuccine"
@@alexandravelardes7692 The bit that always kills me is when Griffin just hollers, full of absolute brotherly rage, "WAIT, STOP! EVERYONE SHUT UP! DO THEY GIVE YOU RAW FETTUCINE TO CHEW ON AT OLIVE GARDEN?!" and the audience just immediately, in unison, shouting back "NO!!!!"
I love the “my very trans co-writer who is trans…” part because it sounds like “The poison for kuzco the poison chosen specially to kill Kuzco, Kuzco’s poison. That poison?” 😂
@@hilotakenaka hi! originally he was named “Manco Capac” after the first lord of cuzco in the story of the incan empire. they changed it bc manco meant something inappropriate in other countries. tried to make it “cusco” as a direct calling to the incan city (homage to the origin of the movie, which was meant to be based on incan myth and history), then later changed spelling to kuzco!!
@@jo3473 This is awesome! Though idk if I'd want him called Manco Capac anyway, as that was the guy who started the Inca Empire. Not a lot of time for poolside resort living...
“if you’re a content creator, you’re probably going to do sponsorships for companies you don’t always 100% agree with, and it would be hypocritical for me to condemn them for that.” -missed opportunity to plug raid shadow legends
"A great way I learned how to properly research potential sponsors before including them in my videos was with a course from today's sponsor, Skillshare!"
This brought up a related point in my mind- Is anyone else frustrated by the people who act like media and representation is the be all and end all of activism? Like I promise you it isn’t. People who make mistakes in representation are not even remotely on the level of the truly horrible people out there who have much more to learn.
Yup. "How dare these people do representation bad? TO HECK WITH THEM" "What about this other group that's actively and loudly campaigning for the extinction of trans people" "Eh. Not worth my time or energy to be angry about."
As an unrepresented minority I so much more appreciate the messy representation than the lack of any. Unless it's painfully offensive and obviously in bad taste, but it rarely is. It's mostly people who have never written about x minority trying to.
Yes. There's no reason to waste your energy demanding perfect representation from non-minority people and then bombarding them with vitriol when they inevitably fail. Even if it's flawed, I can appreciate the effort and forgive when they apologize. There's far too many people with malicious intentions and people who don't care and refuse to apologize or learn from their mistakes.
YEAH SO MUCH. like. its so clear to me these people are terminally online and need to go touch grass and also volunteer at a food bank or start a mutual aid network or donate to a womens shelter in their community or petition for higher minimum wage laws or literally anything in the entire god damn world that addresses real peoples material needs. like yeah representation and media is important but its really really really not the thing you should be spending the majority of your time fixating on like if someone gives you that perfect representation all the worlds problems will be solved
i’ve been a huge fan of the mcelroys for years, but the fandom has always made me SO uncomfortable with the whole “sweet soft boys” thing. it feels super weird to infantilize grown men like that. it also just feels way too over-familiar of a way to speak about someone you don’t know, and almost creepy.
There's a loooot of projecting in fandom to fulfill some want or need. If you feel like you need a precious smol baybee who you would die to protect, so-and-so becomes the precious smol baybee.
Tbh as someone only vaguely aware of the McElroys before now I always got bad toxic positivity vibes from what little I’d seen of them (or their fanbase at least). Alarm bells we’re going off for me when Sarah talked about the no bummers rule
As someone who binge listened to all of TAZ in 2021 without really looking up fandom content for a more genuine listening experience, the start of the bingus sequence made me think I'd slipped into an alternate reality for a couple of minutes
Girl same, I have listened to all of TAZ but never really look up fan content and I was like wtf have I lost my mind I don't remember Bingus who is Bingus??
Yeah, no kidding. course, I just got into 'em (through Monster Factory and my wife making me listen to the Mango Cult bit) 2 years ago or so. Bit late to the party but better late than never. Not a huge D&D person, so haven't checked out TAZ. What she describes sounds more like the fanbase morphing along with the general decline of society as a whole. How is that on the bros?
A long time ago I had a realisation that I pretty much never want to go to a live recording of any podcast I listen to, not because I don't want to see my favourite creators live, but because I actually don't want to be around that many of their fans. This realisation came after listening to a MBMBaM episode.
@@watermelonlolipop oooh yes. The Magnus Archives is my personal favorite. I’ll put a list of some of my favs, but I recommend looking up content warnings for them - The Magnus Archives - Malevolent - The Penumbra Podcast (Juno Steel arc) - Fawkes and Stallion - Wolf 359
Fandoms take unwarranted ownership of the content they consume. That's why you get people angry at the comic artist of the TAZ show to the point they sent the poor girl death threats. If anything I think the brothers have sometimes been too apologetic for things they really don't need to feel guilty about.
"Feels like a radio play written by Travis , in which the rest of the family are actors without the script." Oof that one got me. Honestly the hardest part of dming for me is not doing this thing.
Obviously we can't say Balance didn't have issues, but they were organic and true to who the brothers were at the time. Travis was so busy trying to "do" something with his story that wasn't really his to do and was so heavy handed and forced that you could *feel* the family get bored- and the listener really wasn't far behind. I stopped listening really early into Graduation.
interestingly enough, i remember people saying that griffin was railroading to much when he was dming balance. I stopped listening for a while because i was still invested in those characters and couldn't really get into the newer archs. I tried listening to graduation but fell off pretty quickly because i thought just prefered griffin as a dm, I didn't realize how much travis took over until now.
@@piperrasmussen I agree Griffin railroaded, especially when there was expected to be a dramatic ending, but he also was performing versus being performative which I think is a huge part of what made Graduation problematic.
@@piperrasmussen I think a lot of my mistakes (and maybe travis'?) Is that I tried to recreate the cinematic feel of the last few balance arcs. They were such a highlight to the story that I attempted to make the whole story like that, and it bogged it down. I only bring this up because I think griffin brought up how he did a similar thing with amnesty and ended up regretting it in a TTAZZ
I'm glad this is more of a rundown of the McElroys generally that takes the good and the bad without performatively pretending they're suddenly terrible now or secretly always were. The biggest drama at play is "their new D&D show was bad" and "Travis is kinda cringe and obnoxious". It's refreshing to see a massive essay like this *not* in response to some horrendous new info that came to light.
Oh phew. I was worried something had happened or been discovered with them that meant they shouldn’t be supported and i was just about to catch up on Sawbones...
I mean, let’s not brush over the fact that their new d&d show wasn’t just bad- it actively used anti-indigenous tropes that they never apologized for or addressed.
Yeah, I was really worried that it came out that one of them was a groomer or abuser, and while the DND criticisms are extremely valid (I have trouble with focusing for a long time on audio, so I never got into TAZ myself) I’m really glad it wasn’t something like that.
@@luiysia iirc that was a fan theory they shot down in one of their behind the scenes episodes and it was either a complete coincidence or it wasn't a name they considered past a passing idea.
@@boopsnoot3142 I’m pretty sure it was going to be her name, but then the fandom decided taako and lup were Latino, and Griffin didn’t want a pair of Latino characters literally named “taco and chalupa”
So, the real funny thing to me about the Taako-is-a-racist-name thing is that Taco is actually a legit, fairly common boys' name in the Netherlands. (I had a teacher named Taco.) If only the boys had known this, they could've just claimed that Taako is Dutch, lmao. I know this probably wouldn't actually have helped, but I would've loved it anyway.
I feel like little nudges like that, just reminding the audience of the nature of the relationship, are probably really healthy to this whole affair. Like a mini reality check.
@@marinemanaphy101 He also seems to enjoy brutal honesty and bluntness, even being mean in his humor, it's like he breaks the fourth wall just to slap you. Edit: just to clarify, BDG is one of my favorite content creators. I especially enjoy the way he likes to shove his middle finger in the face of the people who fuss over his hair by essentially destroying it on video.
It's wild to remember that I was in the live show audience for the first time they showed the trailer for TAZ:Graduation (to the point that they told us not to reveal the name/concept yet because it hadn't been officially announced) and to look back on that knowing how contentious the arc became. It was a totally different vibe. I remember a big cheer going up when they announced Travis would be DMing
I was at the show too, and that hype watching the trailer with everyone and the excitement there I think just added to the let down graduation became D:
Thats so rough and relatable. 😭 When I first started listening to MBMBAM, I found him a little annoying, but he quickly became my favorite. Now, midweek when I don’t have a new podcast to listen to involving him, I find myself specifically wanting to hear Travis. ❤️
when you talk about the conflict between the mcelroy's relationship as a family vs the reality that they are professionals working together, it reminds me of that clip from the mbmbam show where justin pretends his hand is a spider to freak travis out and they had to stop the cameras for a min because, and i quote, "It was not brother weird, but it was professionals-working-together weird FOR SURE." which I think supports the whole idea that this has been an ongoing tension of sorts, that they have been facing for a long time, because it is kind of inherent to making your close family members business partners in the entertainment industry.
I mean, I've worked with family in several other industries and it's ALWAYS that kind of weird disconnect and stressful frustration of roles. (Ask anyone who has done a family restaurant; it's torture.) But considering their brand literally grew out of "brotherly hijinks" and then dumping parasociality on top, I'm surprised it hasn't boiled over before. They literally had to disclaim the "Travis tortures the other brothers with his unfunny bits" on MBMBAM recently I'm guessing because the Travis hate machine didn't quite get "that's the joke, we're brothers."
Mmy Moon it’s still wild to me that people don’t get the joke there lol. Must be people without siblings? Annoying your brothers with “ideas” or “games” but are actually just dumb shit is a time honored pastime. I’ve got three brothers myself and those bits always get me
@@xIQ188x pour one out for all the deprived only children or people with stoic siblings. I can only hope a suitably impish friend comes into their lives to bring joyful torment because I can't really imagine it. When I was a sleep-deprived teenager, my little brother would silently sneak into my room only to play the trumpet directly into my ear. And that's what brotherhood is all about.
I was SO STOKED when the Thundermen LLC took it upon themselves to literally 'destroy the system from the inside', and then it went... absolutely nowhere. And took forever to do it. :(
I feel like all the campaigns after the first forgot a fundamental thing all dnd nerds know: If your campaign starts as Lord of the Rings, it quickly devolves into Monty Python, or else everyone gets bored. But when you start out at Monty Python? Those are the campaigns that end up getting the heartfelt speeches and the character deaths that make the whole table cry.
Oh yeah. And the same goes for characters btw! Make a straight laced lawful good gruff guy with a tragic backstory? Gonna be a part of eeeeevery joke in the campaign. Make a literal clown that juggles knifes with the returning enchantment as a weapon? He's gonna make players cry irl. EVERY TIME. Latest campaign of PF2E I had was a great example. One of the characters was based on Godrick the Motherloving Grafted (from Elden Ring) and played up to maximum memeing. Screaming about his ancestors witnessing him, being completely demented, egotistical, a barbarian (obvs), etc. Halfway through the campaign every other player and me just wanted to give that poor, broken man a hug... Another far more loosely based on Melina, was an ashes oracle, played up as a complete piromaniac whose every other sentence was a pun and who insisted on screaming "god is great" whenever she intentionally triggeted her curse. (Note: PF2E's oracles have curses where if they do certain powerful acts the game balances by triggering it. The Ashes Oracles' makes both herself and everything/one around her take a LOT of added damage from fire spells.) (Note 2: "Ackbar" means "Great" in arabic... YEAH) Sure enough first time she went and did a suicide bomb knowing her character would die I had to give everyone a 10 minute break 'cause I was literally crying. There ain't nothing more tragic than a meme PC. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
This is actually very true. Sure I had a game that was pretty serious but bland that went to epic scopes, my favorite game was one that started as us fighting a parody of the Jackie Chan cartoon's second season. Almost a year later our three "a$$holes with moxie" had bonds forged in blood and fire fighting a god before being unable to decide how to accept making a self sacrifice to fill the void that god now left open in causality
As someone from Huntington and yet not a fan of the brothers, reminders of their intense online popularity feels like whiplash when my experience with them was just stuff like running into Justin at the UPS store lol
@@lizardlee10 your bus played radio in the morning? I'd say that would be torture but for a year a kid in the back of my bus would badly and loudly sing radioactive. Every. Single. Day.
Yes I live in Cincinnati and take classes at a theater where Travis worked so he’s always been this peripheral character who is sometimes mentioned in the theater just like past cast members are; like everyone loves them but I’ve never met them, of that makes sense?
@@gemmamoon5998 lol it was tradition for my friend group in undergrad to go see Marshall U's production of A Christmas Carol that Clint was in for a few years
ok listen I'm half Mexican and I've not experienced any McElroy content ever but I am SO GLAD they didn't make Taco Mexican and I cannot believe people found it PROBLEMATIC that they didn't make Taco Mexican oh my goodness
It's not even Taco, but 'Taako', because Justin wanted to come up with a stupid jokey 'fantasy' name back when there was no real character concepts and it was all a bit of a fuck around. It's utterly meaningless. It's only later on they started riffing on how Taako was destined to invent the taco. I knew the fandom would be Those Types which is why I've always just avoided it and enjoyed the content in isolation.
It's weird that people were looking at the graphic novel and going, "but there's no diversity?" to the cis white men that make up the entirety of the cast. The fact that those same exact people were also expecting a stereotype of a Mexican elf...
Is it weird that I find "making an ass of yourself sometimes" and "problematic attempts at including minorities" to be refreshingly mundane reasons for fans to turn on creators? Have I set the bar too low because of how many celebrities turned out to be child groomers or espoused actual Nazi ideology? Not to say that the other stuff doesn't deserve criticism and improvement, because they very much do, but there's a level of moral decay I've come to expect from celebrities that just hasn't been reached here, and I'm oddly relieved?
You know what, that’s a really optimistic spin on this all. I was mostly just darkly reflecting on the way people will-despite their claims to the contrary-do their level best to protect random cishet white men on the internet for NO reason, which I am about sick of. But you’re right! They got justified criticism that was widely acknowledged by people within and outside the fanbase. Certainly a step forward.
Says a lot more about the people griping than the people being griped about. As in: please, stop being fans, I never, ever want to meet you in real life.
same? I always heard of them but never knew much about them, so when i saw this video and its title i was waiting for a big fan grooming scandal or something
Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us, only sky Imagine all the people Livin' for today Ah Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion, too Imagine all the people Livin' life in peace You You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will be as one Imagine no possessions I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world You You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one
Imagine being told to shut up by someone talking like a baby, and then getting lectured on how we need to be nice to each other. Travis is very lucky he was playing with nice people.
It didn’t help when Sarah referred to them as “2 straight white guys” followed by two separate asterisks saying it could also be 3 or 4 depending on who counts.
This and the Jenny Nicholson vid on Vampire Diaries prove that ill be entertained by stuff I have no earthly idea about as long as it is presented in a entertaining way. Never listened to MBMBAM or knew that they even had a dnd show.
@@integra8472 fuck I follow him on UA-cam because I genuinely love some of his videos and had no idea wtf Reading his name here was like ?!? That Nick Robinson?!?
i haven’t watched the video yet but oh god i’m gonna skip right past it. i’ve never had the guts to watch that video in full and i’m not gonna start now lmao
I don't get why people seek out cringe videos like that, it's physically painful to me. And I have no emotional connection to that dude one way or the other.
It's like when people complained that a dark skinned character in my hero academia should be voiced by a black actress. She was. And when they found out, they told her she should sound "more black".
Taako, it was in a fantasy world where the Taco was named after him. So if he -invented- the Taco, you would have a white -man- elf -inventing- discovering the Taco. Partially Redacted because I barely remember the actual reason, but people below have already corrected me, so read their explanations
I absolutely agree with your take on parasocial relationships. Parasocial relationships by themselves, neutral. Parasocial relationships plus entitlement, that’s where you run into issues. Being passionate and a fan of someone and their content isn’t inherently a problem, but when you start expecting certain behavior out of them that extends past “being a bare-minimum decent person who isn’t perfect but at least tries their best”, then that things start to snowball out of control.
In my opinion, it's best to remain just a fan of that certain person's work, and nothing more. You will never know the inner workings of a content creator's personal life, and as long as you try to remain emotionally distant from that person, you'll be avoiding a lot of potential future hurt when less than savoury things about them are revealed to the public.
Really glad you talked about how the prominence of parasocial relationships can affect a fandom; it's something I think gets overlooked a lot when discussing the fandoms of celebrities/online personalities, despite how prominent (and harmful) they can sometimes be
I kind of want the 2 types of dangerous para social relationships Sarah laid out to become internet reference points. Like they really help cut through a lot of the conversations and discourse I see around internet personalities.
Reminds me of TotalBiscuit (yeah yeah, I know he was "problematic") actively discouraging his fanbase from forming an "identity"/"fandom". I remember him basically talking about how he didn't want the "Cynical Fleet" (as some of his fans called themselves) to be a thing, and how he was not our friend, he was just some fucking guy talking about shit online. He also disliked the term "fan" to begin with. It was fairly sobering for a much younger me, at least.
There's got to be a middle ground between the uncritical, toxic positivity, and the unrelenting nit-picking negativity that fan communities tend to fall into. There should absolutely be room for critical thinking and criticism within a fan community, but if I go to engage with a community of other fans, I'm doing that because I want to talk about something I like. If I go to a community of fans of a Thing and the entire vibe is that nobody actually likes the Thing, that's an unhealthy community dynamic, and it's not something that's generally solvable by creators. The only perceivable solution to me is for people to stop engaging with things that are bringing us more frustration than enjoyment. Critical thinking is important and good, but if it's ruining your ability to actually enjoy the media you're intentionally choosing to consume, you have two solutions: either lighten up on the criticism, or stop consuming that media and find something else that you'll actually enjoy. This can be a difficult task and a really difficult conclusion to come to, especially when people have formed part of their identity around liking a particular piece of media. But at this point knowing when to disengage from something is a vital life skill.
Your post basically illustrates why such middle ground is essentially non-existent in most online communities. People who are willing to say "I don't care for this anymore, i'll move on" are the exact type of people who do not make tons of fan works, post on reddit, or create a massive essay on criticisms/praise of the thing they consume. For example, look at how many people in this very comment section had the response "wait, I'm a casual fan and had no idea any of this was happening". The people Sarah Z covers are inevitably the most vocal group of people.
@@popsicleman8816 I think you're spot on. When a piece of media is a part of someone's identity and then it doesn't quite deliver the way it used to (whether that's because it changed or because they did), it seems like it's easier for some people to transition their identity into not liking or downright hating that thing than it is to extricate their identity from the thing entirely. Maybe we should not be basing our identities around the things we consume.
It’s a useful skill for sure, but knowing more content will be coming is what keeps people staying engaged. If TAZ was fully finished, I’d agree with you
@@brianmidkiff5408 I don't think the fact that it's ongoing affects my point in any way--I think that people staying on the bandwagon just because it's still going even if they're not enjoying it are falling into a similar trap with the same results. It's some combination of fear of missing out and sunk cost fallacy, and it's keeping people engaged in things long past the point where they were actually enjoying them. It just causes them frustration and distress, which they sometimes choose to spread outward. There's no good reason anyone should continue to read a book, watch a show, or listen to a podcast they're not enjoying anymore. If we could collectively get a little bit better at recognizing when we're not getting actual enjoyment out of something and a little bit better at letting go of that thing, I think it would make the world (especially the online world) a better and healthier place.
"you really do get a vibe of family closeness when you listen." I like to point out how they start each episode by introducing themselves as "YOUR (oldest/middlest/sweet baby) brother." They're OUR brothers. All of our brothers. Brothers of all humankind.
I think the complaint about shifting from a fantasy setting to a scifi setting in the flashback arc is unhinged considering the story had huge scifi fantasy stuff since the end of the very first arc, where they fly up to a moon base???
Admittedly, I began watching this video in bad faith. I'm a massive fan of the McElroys who can say honestly that their content, as well as the sense of community that comes with it, has pushed me through some of the darkest times in my life, and I was worried you would attack this interest fundamentally. Thus, I was caught a bit off-guard when you recognized and addressed this concern. I appreciate well-structured criticism of the works we love, and I'm glad I was able to sit through this and understand the perspectives you gave in this video despite my biases going in. TAZ Balance was my gateway drug into the McElboy canon, and until now, I've been rather reluctant to reflect on its many flaws, representationally or otherwise. Even the works we love are not devoid of flaws, and what they can accomplish for us is separate from their intent(s) as content. This isn't some dramatic "thank you for helping me see the light" post, just a legitimate response to your essay as way of thanks for tweaking the way I appreciate content going forward. Once again, my personal consequence was not your intent, but appreciated nonetheless. Also any future readers please rate below how pretentious this looks, deuces ✌
This is always a super great thing to hear! I'm both glad you still get a lot of enjoyment out of their content (honestly, so do I- and I *am* actually excited to pick up on the next TAZ season once gameplay starts) and that you were able to enjoy the video. Thanks so much :)
Idk about pretentious - maybe a little? Mostly you just seem a little awkward, but like you had an unexpected positive experience that changed who you are just a little bit, and wanted to say thank you. We dont always get to thank the people who affect us, so may as well when you feel good about what you've gotten to think about and know where those ideas were introduced, even if they're not utterly life changing.
"It is both possible - and even nessescary - to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of its more problematic or pernicious aspects." - Anita Sarkeesian
You weren't pretentious. You are just trying to put into words your feelings in a constructive way as a statement of how the video impacted you and why you appreciated the positive criticism. Or maybe I am also pretentious. Either way works.
Well given constructive type critique is a form of affection imho. So being able to see something (or someones) flaws and not deny or obfuscate them just shows a more true love to me. I think you just figured that out and it's awesome to see in the wild.
My take on the centaurs is that it sounds like they took a bunch of tropes that are extremely common in D&D and the fantasy genre as a whole without recognizing that they had roots in indigenous stereotypes. The sad truth is that the summary you gave is extremely familiar to me, and I highly doubt it was a conscious decision to base them on indigenous people. This isn’t to say that the McElroys have no responsibility here. When imitating other stories you need to be aware of stuff like this, and I definitely think they need to apologize. But I think the genre as a whole really needs to reexamine these tropes because it is FAR from unique to TAZ.
This is a super good point too- the TTRPG world in general has its roots in a sort of Eurocentrism, and while both DND and other systems are moving away from it (lots of amazing systems made by people of colour especially seek to challenge those tropes and narratives), they’re still found in all sorts of places in the genre, and can often get picked up on even unintentionally.
I agree. I don't think it was intentional, but the lack of a response was sad. Usually when they make mistakes they'll own up to it, it's part of what people like about them. Justin's Kardala was way worse though, it's pretty crazy to think that made it through a diversity consultant
@@wolfstar1253 It's not about Centaurs in particular (there is a theory that they were based on horse riding nomad tribes but I think those specific cultures don't really exist anymore) but about the tropes that surround "barbarian tribes" and white savior narratives in general in fantasy stories.
Definitely feel it was also a sense of burnout with them and fans during covid that really just pushed things harder. Being unable to go all out with live shows for 18 months really just let everyone stew with just the podcast releases and very few fun events to drive the fandom besides some virtual live shows.
Fr, like that story, regardless of context was so weird. Yes we should have diversity in media, but an adaptation of a podcast about cishet white guys having their player characters reflect those traits until stated otherwise (Taako being gay, Aubrey being bi/Latina) doesn't seem like it should be seen as problematic, just indicative of the storyteller's POV and limits.
I rather like the idea of taako being an elf, and inventing the taco, just like how the Roman's invented the hamburger before anybody else, guess what the concept of a "taco" exists in many iterations. I'm mexican btw.
As a Mexican, I wouldn't really care either way, we have bigger shit to worry about, but the white people saying that he HAS to be Mexican get on my nerves.
No joke, my (white) cousin dated a Mexican guy for several years who called himself "Taco". He would just laugh off attempts at trying to ascertain his real name, and it wasn't a language barrier or anything, because the guy spoke English better than my American ass.
@@passionpeachy1370 as a fellow Mexican I agree. These people ain't perfect sure. But taako is the least of our problems. What with 3 usa presidents in a row putting mexican and Hispanic kids in cages and forcibly sterilizing hispanic women like its nothing
Yes I liken it to the uwu speak or baby talk that people do… so hard to listen to. You can TELL when someone thinks the mcelroys r funny and want to make jokes like them and it almost always falls flat
I can't stand their speech patterns- it's why I've never finished a whole episode. I have zero interest in hearing grown men do baby-talk to each other.
God, learning about the Bingus phenomenon, I'm suddenly hoping Sarah dusts off her Tumblr historian credentials and covers the Goncharov phenomenon someday.
As someone who doesn't interact much with the community it is bizarre to hear so much negativity happened. I'm not saying the family is perfect but I never felt like they owed me anything so I just enjoyed their content as they chose to produce it.
Their setup invites a feeling of intimacy which is what I think brought on this kind of scrutiny. They've made it very clear they're constantly trying to do better and they're fuckin' human. It's hard to be a cis white guy promoting an inclusive and diverse world. Everything in front of you is quicksand because they're babies who doesn't know stuff. They're trying and caring so much more than anyone else I've seen. I have no idea why people choose to focus their anger on these active allies
@@atapper10 I agree with you 100%. I have a ton of respect for them trying to be as inclusive as possible, and of course they're going to make mistake but you learn and grow from them. If the majority of the feedback they get on their inclusive characters is negative, then I think that would make almost anyone give up on trying to be inclusive. It would be exhausting to always be told your efforts aren't good enough and frankly I'm surprised they still try so hard to be inclusive to an audience that is so ungrateful. My "McElroy bubble" so to speak, has pretty much been Monster Factory, MbMbaM and their tv show, so I too was surprised to hear about a lot of this.
All Adventure Zone adventures be like: Beginning: lol, such a silly and wacky show. I liked. Middle: Oh boy, that's some heavy drama Ending: Than a giant space entity shows up
It sounds like there are much higher expectations of the McElroys than there ought to be. It’s been wise of them to not get wrapped up in defending themselves. Too often we see someone experiencing backlash, dig in their heels and try to fight and justify their viewpoint leading to just giving up on even the appearance of being good.
They've said it so many times, too. And not in like the dismissive "I'm Trying to cover my ass" kind of way but in the "hey we're aware of the space we occupy" kind of way. So often they say "Hey we're just three white dudes we could be wrong about things and if we are! Whoops! Sorry!" And it sucks that that's not enough for some people.
the fact that this comment section holds the most civil discussion of Mcelroy content I've seen in years says a lot about who is still participating in the fandom at all. personally, I've never been big on fandom, but i end up on one of the subreddits or something bc I'm trying to remember a bit and it's been consistently baffling to see how black and white the fandom is. it's either "the good good boys can do no wrong" or "haha wouldn't it be funny if the brothers kicked travis out?" with very little civility in between.
In my opinion, labelling ANYONE a “woke” icon or something is not right. No one can have all experiences and knowledge to be aware of every single issue and culture. Let alone labelling some straight cis white guys as these is is just unfair. But I think the fact that they managed to improve themselves and be better about general issues is amazing
Yeah that was the trouble I was having when I dipped my toe in online McElroy Brothers spaces years ago, where it started with the "good boy" assumption so it became about how they were automatically good and so their actions were good rather than their actions could be judged for what they were without making it about the inherent goodness or badness of anyone. It was just so hostile to any dissent.
@@riverofmolecules the internet does seem to just classify people into "good" and "bad" categories and when someone conciedered "good" does a "bad" thing (I'm talking about more minor mishaps, some caused by ignorance and ones generally responded by the creators) people either refuse to see it or are shattered. I guess the parasocial relationship aspect of it where you don't really know the people does contribute to it.
Putting people on pedestals never does anyone any good. We're all fucking stupid and we all make irrational, thoughtless, even horrible mistakes even with the best of intentions, and put anyone in any sort of position where any sort of mistake only leads to them being labelled as horrible is cruel. Similarly, idolizing them so they can no longer so any wrong in your eyes is equally foolish. Being able to acknowledge that your heroes are fallible is a sign of strength.
Yeah it's neither good for the fans nor the creators themselves. Look what happened to Jenna Marbles. She wasn't cancelled by the fans, she just couldn't handle the assumptions anymore that she is perfect and "unproblematic".
But also be mindful some shows/podcasts have a specific "style" that may or may not represent the actual political/social views of the creators. Lots of shows do that, Cum Town is the big one, they probably aren't as horrible as they sound on the podcast, it's edgy "bro" humor, that's the demographic. That being said, it can be reflective but people get WAAAAY too worked up over COMEDY podcasts or shows.
The online space have become so perverse that online people are being condemned for not acting like brands, while brands online are pretending to be people.
I think there's something fundamentally unsustainable about trying to maintain the idea that a given content creator/media franchise is either morally "right" or "wrong." People are inevitably going to disappoint you and that doesn't make them suddenly your enemy. It just means your view of them was inaccurate.
Yeah, if people demand that everything they consume meets a constant, perfect standard of subjective ideological purity they would quickly run out of things to enjoy if they dug deep enough.
I think this probably stems from a desire to enforce critical thinking of media, and not be a passive consumer who engages in no way with products they are being sold. That said I think the mistake a lot of people make is that after a critical process of analysis, that inevitably concludes in finding imperfection, it becomes morally questionable to keep enjoying the thing, bc it feels like endorsing a bad action or idea. My personal take is that if you have clear principles of right and wrong, you will be able to disagree with an aspect of media without branding it as inherently good or bad.
@@anamariaalonso7645 The problem is, this binary sense of "good" and "bad" and the push to cling to a sense of moral purity runs counter to critical thinking. Moral judgment in this sense (not in terms of evaluating harm, but in terms of essentialist 'good' and 'evil' views of things or people) is moreso a deeply emotional process, not a rational one, and it shuts down critical analysis by leaving people unwilling or unable to apply nuance in favor of their idealized versions of reality. It's a drive to criticize, certainly, but moral panics aren't a manifestation of critical *thinking* in specific. I've found that the attitude is more aligned with conservatism than any sort of genuine progressivism, even if the aesthetics are progressive, because it's ruled by fear.
I feel like this happens to most Internet Creators They start off as "Friends" to their small fan base But as they grow to a mIllion fans, they officially become a big business but still try to keep that "Friends" tag. Eventually the fans come to realize that the "Friends" Era is over and it's time to move on. Except people don't move on and instead decide to hate-watch and attack their once beloved creators.
I feel like the step shouldnt be "move on" but instead realize you don't know them but if they helped you in anyway a nd you still like them then continue to support them and enjoy the content but have divorced yourself from it.
This is big time mood with RoosterTeeth. A large portiong of their OG fanbase resents them purely for being big and different to the tiny buddy zone it started out as. (thats not to say there haven't been thing to legitimately get upset with RT for, but ironically hatewatchers usually like to defend them on those points)
Hey, its me, that one insane person who wrote the Graduation character list (the one with bingus) Just wanted to say, i think this video is great!! I think it does a great job covering everything the TAZ community (particularly on the subreddit) has been going through over the past year, and also paints a pretty fair picture of the positives and negatives while also, yknow, not going overboard on criticism or anything. I'm glad someone was able to do justice to the period of time the fandom was in during Graduation because it was kind of insane. I was always someone who would try to mediate between "grad critics" and "grad enjoyers" because, yknow, a lot of the time they were both right, they had just formed opinions about the other side that made it harder to understand each other. I've seen it happen before with steven universe, and I assume i'll watch this happen over and over again with other fandoms. Oh well. It's also kind of personally validating for the list I made for my own personal need to categorize things actually end up helping a lot of people, and then have one of my stupid jokes blow up into something so big that it even crosses paths with a youtuber whose content i already liked ^^; (oh yeah ALSO: Griffin did not actually say Fitzroy was aromantic and asexual! in the TTAZZ, Griffin said Fitzroy was "asexual, but not necessarily aromantic". maybe there's something to be said about forcing an npc relationship onto the asexual character specifically, but i don't think it was as actively problematic as people still claim it was.)
Hey, I'm not active on the sub anymore, and this video is the closure I needed for Grad, but just wanted to thank you well, both for this comment because it perfectly encapsulates my thoughts too, but also for bingus lmao I love them. So yeah, thanks and have a great day/night!
Ok so I haven't watched the video but like holy shit people thought having an asexual character experiencing romantic attraction was problematic???? What the actual heck, that makes 0 sense, romantic asexuals are fully valid and deserve representation just as much as aromantic asexuals.
Hi, I had a few questions regarding the Fitzroy being hit on: how persistent was it, and was it consistent after Fitzroy declined? How was the person hitting on Fitzroy treated in the story ("dude, not cool", "haha, they can't get laid", or "this is romantic"?) Because in my mind, one of the most bizarre and unrealistic things about romance/relationships in games (both ttrpg and videogames) is that the player character is always the party that initiates. So it actually seems interesting and realistic to have a npc be the one who asks out a player, even if the player character has no interest in the npc in question. I feel like if it isn't done too persistently and invasively, it could actually work well as a character moment in how they handle such situation.
@@popsicleman8816 The thing is, Fitzroy never had a direct moment of rejecting Rainer's advances. Travis treated it more like... an awkward school-crush? Some moments were teased as semi-romantic (like when they wanted to meet Rainer's lich dad and she was like "you wanna meet my dad??😳") and they had a little laugh about how awkward it is. Also in episode 19 (around 47:23 using the maxfun version), in the ambiguous "future dream" that Chaos puts Fitzroy into, Rainer is shown have proposed to Fitzroy in the future, and it's kind of unclear whether this was something that would actually happen in the future, or if it's something that Chaos did that was meant to tempt Fitzroy, or if it's something that Travis thought that Fitzroy would have actually wanted. In earlier exchanges between Fitzroy and Rainer, Fitz seemed to gravitate towards her, probably because she stood out in the NPC introductions of the first episode, cause she was cheery and the necromancer gimmick was fun. The PCs choosing to interact with Rainer in scenes is the reason she's actually a recurring character at all really. However when Rainer indicates romantic interest, Fitzroy is shown to either avoid the subject or indicate slight discomfort, which i guess Travis could have read as "funny awkward moment". By the end of the show, the romance plotline is just Completely Dropped, Rainer barely even shows up at the end. So ultimately it just kind of fizzled out. Which indicates to me that Travis had no idea what else to even do with it. Many people (myself included) were expecting Fitzroy to have a moment where he turns Rainer down and they just remain as friends, but it just never came. I don't think it's inherently bad that Rainer was crushing on Fitzroy, i just think it could've been handled a lot better
Sarah Z: The first episode is two hours long and is dedicated mostly to introducing the characters. Me, a DM and a player: What? Why's that so bad? Sarah Z: Not the player characters. Travis' non-playable characters. Me: Oh. Oh. Oh no.
I had never once heard the phrase "no tea no shade no lemonade" until Sarah mentioned it here, and yet I immediately said to myself "that's gotta be a drag queen phrase."
Taking a look back at this video again 2 years later it just seems even weirder than it did at the time that this is video is billed as a "Rise and Fall" story. I genuinely think some of the funniest episodes of MBMBAM ever have come out in the last year. Their youtube channel has posted lots of really hilarious videos recently. I've been thinking that Travis, especially, has been on a roll comedy wise lately. I haven't been listening to TAZ but that's just because my podcast listening habits have changed not because I've heard it's been bad. They're family brand really seems to be thriving right now. I, personally, just fully ignore the online fandom and just enjoy their shows. I recommend it.
Essentially : the McElroys are growing humans who make their living in the spotlight and some fans have a hard time divorcing their own feelings about how they're not actually part of the shiny family unit the McElroys have carefully cultivated. I'm not sure how the same fan base that's all about "pobody's nerfect" loses their shit about how the brothers tried (and failed) to address the complaints of lack of diversity. You can admit they made an attempt and did a bad job without feeling personally attacked.
My thoughts as well. And I hate to pull this "card" but in some situations there's simply no option to "fix" things or "course correct" without making a significant portion of the fans mad. But yeah I especially like your comment about them being growing humans. Us fans seem to give ourselves a free pass on that but our idols have to be perfect always. What a blind spot to contend with!
I'm sorry, the Barbara Walters interview filter is just KILLING me, I cannot look at it without laughing. It is the most hilariously deranged non-sequitur to suddenly have thrown into this video and I love it.
I think a big thing to note about TAZ and roleplaying in general: People are really bad at roleplaying long term, imo. It’s a difficult headspace to maintain a separate persona and to keep track of everything your character has said and done over time and how those all should relate to a novel experience. Playing a character outside your experience is really difficult without flanderization of your character. A moment of bad improv can really impact your character unless you go back on it later. Improv necessitates the “yes and” but really never goes back for the “well, but”
Can relate. I’ve been playing the same character for 100+ episodes in my own podcast and he’s already gone through most of his character growth/development and it’s become pretty difficult to continue playing him without stepping into flanderization.
critical role established an unrealistic expectation for the majority of actual play podcasts. I think watching them, they are such an outlier when it comes to character immersion and roleplaying that expecting every other podcast to do the same is setting yourself up for failure. in some ways i was lucky to have my first actual play podcast be an old Yogscast segment. they werent always in character, and often never used voices but the storytelling was oddly just as strong.
@@quinnmarchese6313 I legitimately dislike Critical Role's insistence on stupid voices and unnecessary post-production. I'm here to listen to nerds roll dice, not a fr*ckin' radio teleplay. The fact people seem to expect that now is extremely annoying.
naddpod is a great dnd podcast that i think toes that line really well. their first campaign ended at 100 eps and that felt right, we knew the characters really well and they’d gone through so much development but it was time to say goodbye. also, the dm does a really good job of integrating character backstories into the lore of the world so it doesn’t feel stale or railroaded!
Yknow when I first watched this video I was like “man thank god I don’t have any super deep parasocial feelings for the content creators I watch that’d be weird” and then the Gus Johnson thing happened and it felt like my whole world view was shattered. Like I felt really genuinely hurt and angry and betrayed and just so sad for Sabrina…so now I’m back to this video to remind myself why getting way too attached to content creators is bad actually
@@user-qp1ow8qg3d Several years ago, his ex-girlfriend Sabrina was dying of an ectopic pregnancy and he... didn't treat her great during that. She made a video about it that you can watch if you want more details. Some people have held out hope that he's changed and this was past behavior, but he mostly just ignored the controversy and tried to move on in a very tone-deaf way, and didn't treat her great fairly recently when she was recovering from surgery, so it seems like he hasn't changed much since those days.
I feel like that's different because it was one thing when Gus Johnson a man who built his brand on sort of positive masculinity is revealed to have horrendously mistreated his girlfriend, basically revealing that he was the antithesis of what he probably presented himself to be vs when a public figure is just Less than perfect. With Gus it was more hurtful because you felt like he'd sold you a lie
I agree that it’s important to demand accountability from people for abusive behaviour. I don’t think this requires feeling the personal sense of betrayal that can go along with the type of parasocial relationships we all have with at least a few of our favourite creators. I think that’s what the commenter was highlighting. You might choose to unsubscribe to Gus’s channel after learning about his behaviour. Some people might, after unsubscribing, not give it another thought. Others might, after unsubscribing, still find themselves thinking a lot about the whole situation. The parasocial part comes from the related emotions and feelings related to two people (Gus and Sabrina) that (almost all of) their audience don’t know personally but nevertheless feel some sort of personal connection with them.
As someone who listened to MBMBaM for years on my daily commute (and continues to do so) with very little connection to the fanbase this was a really... strange experience to watch. I didn't realise there was much of a downfall at all! It really strikes me how difficult it must be to be a creator with such a vocal fanbase.
mte seeing this in my recommended videos lol. I never branched out from MBMBAM, kinda stopped listening when it started being less funny to me, still frequently go back and binge the first 200 something episodes... never once interacted with the fanbase. I feel for the guys, MBMBAM kinda hit the ground running and that was 11 years ago, and seems like they've been just constantly pushed to do better than their top game ever since, instead of fans just naturally losing interest and moving on.
My jaw fucking dropped at that whole section, I just kept yelling "SHUT UP" at the screen louder with every word he said. I can't possibly imagine how awful it must have felt to be in the moment for the other players on the stream. It looked hard to even just watch.
@@NoraQRosa when i first heard about the Incident i couldn’t even watch the video of it i just read a transcript in the comments. i turned the volume pretty much all the way down when it came on in this video too lol. i cannot imagine being one of the other people in that stream, or even being travis like i would’ve left the internet completely
Coming back to this video is like returning home after a long journey. This video introduced me to the McElroys, and The Adventure Zone, which kickstarted my appreciation and love of TTRPGs. The fanart, the dubs, the campaigns, the handbooks, the dice, the literal red robe I have hanging in my office...it all started here. I became friends with my current partner through a Discord server listening party I hosted for TAZ Balance. It all started here. Thank you, Sarah. It's so bizarre to think about, but you changed my life for the nerdier in just a couple hours. If this is the impact you have on people so early into your life, then you're truly going to be amazing. Sorry for the corny joke. I had to.
Tbh a lot of their current ‘downfall’ reminds me of the ‘downfall’ for the Green brothers. They hit their peak and afterwards people with legit criticism/ people who actively disliked them/ people who had outgrown them and were now kind of embarrassed about it were super vocal for a while. And then that died down and they’re still around doing their thing. Which is what I expect will happen with the McElroys; any backlash/ drama will die down eventually and they’ll keep doing their thing, just probably less popular than they used to be. Also was the horrible live show the Atlanta one?? I was there and it was a messsssss
the green brothers backlash still breaks my heart ngl, i really do still love them both even if i am less of a fan as i was back in like 2014 lmao ,, glad to know that this seems to be more an issue of awkwardness and dislike vs. something where the mcelroys are now, like, Evil or whatever
Side note, I’d love to see Sarah do a video about the ride, fall, and slight renaissance of the Green brothers. It was definitely a situation where some very legitimate criticism got marred with “lol eww cringe” critiques which often veered towards just overtly mocking John for symptoms of his mental illness. It’s nice to see them still doing their thing though.
@@bibliophilecb yeah i think that'd be super interesting, bc the criticisms weren't Baseless so much as they were overstated. tbh, i'm glad to see john green writing Anything but YA because he is a strong thinker and communicator but he is best known for his YA and for crash course, where his talents are (imo) a bit more lacking. very excited to read "the anthropocene reviewed"
Another point is that when you position yourself as making art/content as an "ally" to minorities or social causes, you often open yourself up to the expectation that your content needs to fulfil certain strict didactic goals rather than, you know, express a deeply felt emotion or idea.
Yeah, it seemed like Travis just did not have the chops to play/depict multiple groups of different genders and sexualities (especially with so many npcs) but after the taako incident there was too much brand pressure not to be inclusive.
At this point it feels safer to just not try and be an ally to anybody or any cause. Why bother risking all the baggage and shit-flinging that comes with even loosely engaging with those topics? At the end of the day you're not going to change people's minds and you'll just attract horrific things to yourself, and for what? To be able to pat yourself on the back that you were an ally people didn't hate for a microsecond of internet time? Allies all eventually get turned on, WITHOUT EXCEPTION (because the internet's expectation of allies is to be perfect and flawless which is obviously impossible), so what the fuck is the point?
The Pronoun thing in TAZ is so frustrating because its the easiest thing in the world to fix, particularly in a fantasy setting where you can invent a new cultural norm to explain away characters declaring their pronouns Like in a friends' game, people generally introduced themselves by their name, and then a small epithet/honourific that gave the person meeting them both their pronouns and a small detail that they considered important about themselves For example, "Kit von Harlequin, He Who Dances With the Dragon Amongst Mortals", Ser Elizaveta, She Who Guards in the Candlelight", etc
At first I thought you meant they were specialized *terms* that accompany names, like Japanese -chan/-san/-kun but gendered. I feel like even a version of that could work pretty well. This is a cool idea, though.
@@armleg stealing this idea for fantasy culture with weird genders say, someone of that culture would be named Bob-se and se would be... sers(?) used pronoun. you could have Al sort of fun with them going around calling Billy from London Billy-he and stuff
This is cool, its like one step further from what I do in one of my games. Our party always introduces ourselves with our names and spells the names and always asks for the names and spelling of the people we meet. Our party is under the impression that this is a normal cultural thing in this land but the joke is that it's not and people generally think we're weird for this but are polite enough to just go along with it.
Every time I've been enjoying something on my own and then learn about the fandom, I happily go back to enjoying it on my own while ignoring the fandom. Fandoms just get pulled inherently toward toxicity because the most toxic people always pull the hardest.
I make a fan comic for an old cartoon with a dwindling fandom and decades old head-canons that are treated as truth. I don't post anything but the comic on my tumblr, I don't answer asks, don't reblog, and I don't engage with other people. Got an ask in the beginning that was like "I love your version of 'female character in the show' she's such a lesbian." I hadn't made her sexuality clear yet. That's why I don't interact with fandom, they demand things of you as a creator and if you don't kowtow then they get upset or think you're being mean. No thanks. Fandoms for fans can be fun, but fandoms for creators can be like walking on eggshells.
@@appalachiabrauchfrau I don't think even from the perspective of a fan I've ever found that engaging with the fandom enhanced my experience with whatever it was I was watching or listening to. It's only ever been a negative. But that could also just be my personal biases.
to anyone who's capital-w Worried they're gonna find out something they dont like in this video: its mostly an overview about how the fandom of the mcelroys has shrunk significantly due to - them setting themselves up to have a fandom turn on them due to the parasocial nature of alot of their content (not necessarily bad in itself) - serious flaws in taz graduation (which, even as ppl who liked parts of grad, i agree its still bad) from both a "bad storytelling" perspective & a "harmful tropes" perspective - other stuff some of them (mostly travis) have done on social media, which is kinda Yikes but not like "this person is actively evil" (travis being paternalistic on a livestream & performatively doing the "no homo but this man is attractive" on twitter (but then admitting he was doing it to get attention & apologizing for it & saying he'll change his behavior)) if you just listen to the mcelroys casually & arent someone who views them as The Best Thing or engages with The Fandom™, you'll probably come away feeling basically the same, just more aware of the negative aspects of stuff they've made. its levelheaded criticism. (also, maybe you will decide you dont want to give any attention to them. thats fine too. the point is its not an unambiguously awful jk rowling type situation) i guess if you are extremely invested in the mcelroys being Good Good Boys who've Done Nothing Wrong you may dislike it or feel upset, but if thats the case, i would encourage you to rethink how you conceptualize media made by internet content creators who arent your friends.
Oh thank you for this, the only content from them I've consumed was TAZ Balance and some of their bits here and there, but Balance is still one of my favorite pieces of media so i was really concerned to see this video. I'm glad it's not a JK Rowling situation
This is so, so valuable. Two hours is a long time to wait to know if you’ve been giving your time and attention to someone who’s Fucking Evil or just flawed like everyone else. Thank you.
Speaking as someone who is not a content creator by any means, but is an oldest daughter with two younger brothers, Justin's quote breaks my heart. To think that their fame has reached such heights that they can't just be a normal family anymore because their family is now a company and a brand is just so sad to me.
It makes me think of Michael from The Godfather, who stopped caring about the family and tried to be all business and it just left him a lonely bitter old man.
I mean, it's only with respect to the business. I'm sure they play games offline and stuff and it's not an issue in those contexts.
Knowing nothing about these guys or DND really it is sad-kind of makes my desire t be famous when I was younger has dissapated.
He didn't say he wasn't his big brother anymore. He said he couldn't *just* be his brother "and tell him to keep his chin up". They're still brothers. They're also business associates. When people play more than one role in each others' lives, they have to properly play all of those roles. Neglecting to play one of them because it's uncomfortable is just that: neglect. Talking to your adult brother about the adult business you run together does not negate your relationship as brothers - neglecting to do so would make you a bad business associate and also kind of a bad brother. This isn't sad. This is adulthood.
@@Vengedyr Okay capitalist
It's a good thing my best friend Sarah warned me about parasocial relationships.
Why no replys?
@@spiritcat101yeah
Damn, and I saw this comment at the same time she was talking about the dangers of Parasocial Relationships. Thank God Soctopus is a G like that, that’s just how tight we are!
@@KokuroSameugh ur such a fake friend u can’t even spell socktopus’ name correctly. Unlike me, their REAL best friend
@@GreatBookerWow, I’m so glad my close friend GreatBooker corrected me and me specifically on how to spell Socktopus’ name! Isn’t my best friend awesome :D?
I feel like half the comments are “OMG I love the McElroys, I didn’t know people turned on them! What happened?” And the other half are “lmao I don’t know who these people are, I’m just here to watch the Canadian”
I like people with long brain. I have long amount of disl*kes btw. Why? Maybe people with short brain disl*ke because jealous of my long amount of subscr*bers. Please have long brain, dear 2ol
@@AxxLAfriku oh hey you’re here too
I’m just here to watch the Canadian.
Yeah I’m the latter
basically. I had nothing to watch and then this comes up and I'm very happy
The sheer whiplash from "let's talk about the McElroy brand" cutting to "'Among Us' is a game--" broke my neck.
Literally I'd never heard the Among Us thing before so I was so confused for a moment haha
it was a bit suspicous, like [i am not actually going to make this joke]
We live in hell and the devil is sus
Was this a dead body or an emergency meeting?
amogus
Imagine saving up money at your dead end minimum wage job to go see your favorite podcasters live and the show is full of other fans trying to show they are the main character
Imagine it? I’ve lived it!
I can think of it similar to my wife and I getting to see some of our favorite voice actors…and 90% of the questions are “How can I become a V.A.?” or “I have some demos you can check out”
Imagine saving up money at your dead end minimum wage job to go see your favorite podcasters live
@@user-bz3kd2mt3upeople have the right to be happy, they do the same at buying their favorite game lmao
@@wjbushjr If you have a dead end minimum wage job you can probably save up for many, many other things that will make you happier in the long run.
me: i know almost nothing about these men let’s see what she has to say
Sarah: Lin Manuel Miranda snuck two McElroyisms into Hamilton
She Strikes Me Right Between My Ribs
I have never watched an episode of this podcast and have little to no idea who these people are or what they do but Sarah really pulled me in with that one what a wild ride
see, this is in contrast to my "i love these men and have consumed hundreds of hours of their content, and literally know nothing about this... I also saw BDG in the comments-love him too. I'm fucking terrified of what's to come in this video
+
Same, even the "Oh they're the dudes behind Polygon" blind-sided me.
+
i think part of the reason BDG’s “you’re not my friend and you have no say over what i do with my body” got some backlash is because people found him through the mcelroys, and his explicit setting of boundaries was kind of a shock to some fans who were used to griffin your dm and best friend. and i know griffin was being somewhat facetious there, but the impact was still people seeing him and his brothers as friends
wait people actually got upset at BDG for that??? i had no clue wtf
When did he say that?
@@mayac1105 the beginning of season 2 of Unravelled (I think it was the -Mortal Kombat- episode)
Edit: I have been informed it's the Dark Souls one
@@gremloid Yeah, people freaked out at him, it was kind of awful.
I'm surprised. I'm a big fan of his and I was more excited that he was setting hard boundaries with his audience.
Main take away from this video: I'm glad I've always experienced McElroy Brother content in a vacuum by myself and never got involved in the fandom lol.
fandoms: not even once (i mean kidding, but also fanspaces can get real weird and sometimes it's best to take a look around the room, realize it is a Bad Vibe and take your leave)
Same! I didn’t even know all this was going on because I never engaged in fandom as far the the McElroy’s were concerned. I don’t even follow them in Twitter as I don’t have an account.
This a thousand times.
Same I literally didn't know they were in a controversy and only clicked this video to see what was going on lol
MOOD
I'm mostly used to people turning on e-celebs because they turned out to be secret klansmen, terf Karen's, or rapists. Hearing the McElroys are being mildly iffy businessmen or kind of pretentious is honestly a nice change of pace.
It also has a feeling of, ....oh......thats it
Yeah while I totally understand criticism of certain things, I was left thinking that this is more the result of how you frame yourself. Trying your best to show yourself to be the wholesome, trustworthy, woke and progressive fellas, it means people will be so much more aware when you screw it up. Screw ups that would be criticized but quickly forgotten are much bigger deals. Sure, there are things that are worth critique, but it's all so much bigger and grander than it would have been if they didn't encourage such a parasocial fanbase.
They aren't iffy, she is. They literally called the Sacagawea dollar "savage cents". She sounds like a fan who didn't want to reck them
“Savage cents”, that’s funny. Don’t be an uptight Karin.
@@brandongolden7867 I'm assuming you arent native and havent, for example, been ridiculed for your culture/customs? havent been repeatedly harassed by white cops because you dont have a tribe card? because your grandfather was stolen from his tribe to be raised by christians which was done to breed/train the "savagery" out of native people? and now your tribe doesnt even have a council? Eventually had to move away from your family to get away from racist small town cops and finally try to build a life? do you have to defend companies like amazon because its one of the only places you can get a job without being called a "lazy plains N-slur" to your face at work by people doing half the rate that you are? no BRANDON i dont think its funny. if you have to alienate a group of people for your joke, you arent funny.
You know that tumblr post of that photo that says "I don't know who the McElroy are and at this point I'm too afraid to ask" and the OP rb with the comment "I've been informed this is in fact one of them"? That's literally all I know about them
wait thats one of the mcelroy brothers??
@@toothfairy10133 The original quote is a Parks and Rec reference, but there’s a picture of one of them holding a paper that says the quote
@@toothfairy10133 The meme with the guy holding up the piece of paper with that written on it is Griffin McElroy
Same
Idk anything about them and I can’t stop thinking of that post that thought mbmbam stood for man booty man butt ass man
I feel like every discussion of parasocial relationships needs to be accompanied by the clip of BDG saying "I'm not your friend and you have no say over what I do with my body"
bdg saying that was the first step in a very tough but beneficial journey i took in distancing myself from content creators and developing more healthy (for myself) parasocial relationships. i think about that moment ALL the time
"I, uh... I don't love my fans. I have to be... I don't. You don't want that. You don't want that desperate, sort of cloying thing from an entertainer. "My fans, oh, they stick with me through everything, through thick and thin." Do not stick with me through thick. If I stop entertaining you, throw me to the curb. You wouldn't stick with your mechanic if he stopped fixing your car. I'm in a service industry. I'm just overpaid, okay? I feel a lot of artists, pop artists especially, sort of infringe upon responsibilities that just aren't theirs, in terms of their audience, maintaining their audience at an emotional level. Some of you might be sad, and going through things. I feel for that, life is tough. I'm not gonna fix that with a song."
- Bo Burnham
Honestly BDG doing that was one of the bravest and most intelligent things I've ever seen a UA-cam creator make.
Where did brian david gilbert said that?
@@strangeclaims in his unraveled dark souls video about 20 seconds in
I guess this shows the difference between 'casual fan' and 'member of the fanbase' - as a member of the former, I wasn't aware of any of this!
Try being a podcast journalist! It's wild what things are considered a big deal or have huge fanbases if you aren't actively seeking out things in said fanbase. If one doesn't hang out on TikTok and pay attention to podcast charts it'd be easy to assume The Magnus Archives is just some random audio drama with a huge backlog, or that TAZ is a meh D&D podcast with a big network propping up its download numbers.
As someone who is a very big fan of mbmbam but isn’t involved with the fan community at all I am so confused? What happened?
@@averyjeanne I've got an explainer video by Sarah Z you might be interested in! You're on the page for it right now, actually.
I can't imagine! I spend a lot of time on tiktok (unfortunately) and my only real exposure to this fandom is through my friends who are a part of it and as such the algorithm sends more fan content my way. I guess I was just spared the controversy because my peers seem to be genuinely invested in and enterntained by their content so I just assumed all was well... never a safe assumption on the internet I guess
Right lol? Had no idea there was any controversy happening. Sometimes, being old and out of touch spares me some big headaches. 😂
I once attended a TAZ live show where the brothers prefaced right off the bat that they wouldn’t be able to meet and greet after the show because of travel and having very young children. The crowd responded in a loudly disappointed way that made the brothers clearly uncomfortable, to the point that Griffin had to say something in their defense and I felt pretty embarrassed to be lumped in with a crowd that would try to make them feel bad for having families. (I also don’t know how to describe it the crowds response wasn’t just an “aww” but also not a full “boo” though I think I remember a few folks boo-ing)
God forbid these guys wanna be present and genuine fathers, but I get it, nobody in a fandom understands what having one of those is like.
(/j. I also do not have a father, so for anyone reading this who wants to screech, go false-woke somewhere else. ♡)
it really freaked me out how people infantilized these guys, they're grown men with families and seeing teenagers call them "uwu cinnamon buns" was super SUPER fuckin weird. It's not like they were put on a pedestal, it's more like young fans... forgot??? that they were adult men and not their pocket pets.
that's just awful, what sucky fans (the ones that acted like that)
If their children are a concern, why did they do a liveshow tour? Don't they at least have a manager? That's something you tell people before a show or have your manager announce before you come out to avoid this. You'd have to be around for awhile to notice this, but they will use anything as an excuse to put forward less effort. They are entitled to it, but over time people care about them less and less. So their lack of effort is coming full circle.
I wouldn't blame them if "we have families" was just a tactful way of saying "we actually just don't want to hang out with you".
"I'm not gonna name them because they aren't paying me" is how we should all treat brands imo
Justin specifically said that about food delivery services while in the middle of a Munch Squad where he read a Pepsi press release in its entirety. Seemed kind of ironic
Shame but don't name. I can see it.
@Dani Masterson Absolutely, but if you've got a platform with a lot of viewership you've also got to consider whether your efforts to specifically shame a particular brand just amount to free advertising. Plenty of attempted boycotts and the like for all sorts of issues completely backfire. The most obvious example that springs to mind is PETA (of course) giving families in Flint conditional clean water.
Gimme that coin or get no mention at all, food box service and/or mattress retailer!
@@SarahZ how about the electric toothbrush company? XD
ah yes another sarah z video where she talks about something i don’t know and don’t care about for 2 hours and i listen intently the entire time
very accurate
Same
lol i feel the same everytime
Ok, but like same.
I knew of the one guy as the woman from Sawbones’ husband but I wasn’t aware they had such a cult following and I still don’t get it lol
"People auditioning to be the 4th McElroy Brother" is way too generous. Questions during live shows felt like kindergarteners who don't know how to ask questions and instead want to overshare at the expense of the audience.
"Hi, this is my chance to be famous, so I'm going to drop all my social media deets first so agents can find me when all this is done."
Ughghgh yesssss. The back half of all the live shows is almost unlistenable
WHAT. Can I please have examples of this
PLEASE MAKE A COMPILATION VIDEO OF THIS I LOVE CONVENTION CRINGE VIDEOS
@@toppersundquist that doesn’t happen, the audience is banned from self-promotion at the risk of being heckled and getting edited out of the show. Tell me you don’t listen without TELLING me
as a guy in a wheelchair, whenever i meet someone i flash a quirky side smile, press my pointer fingers together, tilt my head and ask “y-y-y-y-your prob-b-b-b-b-b-b-bably w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-wondering about the wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wheelchair, huh?” my eyes then proceed to roll back in my head as i recite the wikipedia entry about my genetic condition and it’s history in the classic british man text to speech voice for the next hour and a half.
ooh, CIDP sufferer here! Came to tell ya how relatable this comment is 😅
especially the part where your eyes roll back as you describe your malady for an uncomfortable amount of time!😂
like that one scene in hlvrai where the scientist just reads the fucking wikipedia page for chair
@@hotpocketsat2am The fucked up part is he just has it memorized from an older version of the article. He wasn't even reading anything, it just lives inside his brain.
i was wondering why “brothers who played dnd for an audience” sounded so familiar even though i don’t know these guys but i just realized... i own their book. i purchased the graphic novel version of “the adventure zone” completely unaware of its origin
Did you like it?
@@Melanie-yep it was pretty good as far as i remember, ironically the art was my favorite part even tho it was the only part not present in the podcast lmao. the dialogue makes a lot more sense in context as family joking around now tho
And you were immediately spoiled fully for it in this vid lmao
This is how I got into their podcasts! I liked the graphic novels but I think the podcasts are a lot better
@@caviicape I will say, the first book had to do a lot of retcon and rearranging dialogue-wise to get rid of extraneous stuff, try to tighten up the pacing, change some stuff copyrighted by wizards of the coast, keep the tone my consistent with later parts of the podcast, and get rid of some stuff that no longer made sense with the later world-building. Not to forget that tone doesn't translate well into text and (as Sarah Z said) a decent part of the McElroys' humor comes from their very distinctive speaking style. All-in-all, I found that this made a lot of the dialogue feel very awkward and stilted, and it really just loses a lot of its humor and and charm in being translated to the page.
So yeah, the art is way better in the dialogue in the graphic novel (but also the podcast itself is v good)
Feel like this hot take about parasocial relationships manifesting not just as perceived personal friends but personal enemies is a rather poignant point... Gonna sit on that one for a while
I don’t know about it though, because a lot of the cancelling behavior people engage in isn’t anything they would ever do to someone in their real life. Like, I don’t think any of the people who called Lindsay Ellis a worthless, disgusting, abhorrent bitch and said that Sarah Z was next would say those kind of things to people they actually know personally. Like sometimes I think the degrees of separation in parasocial “relationships” actually allow people to dehumanize celebrities and influencers and place them on an untouchable pedestal that makes it acceptable to hurl abuse at them because they don’t think they could ever really be affected. Idk I think there’s flaws in the parasocial model, especially when applied to fans/followers turning on or cancelling celebs and influencers.
Internet hate isn't limited to being parasocial, there can definitely be dehumanization and the idea that you wont face repercussions from your hate too. But like, for example, the backlash Contrapoints got from her own viewers for working with a transsexual sex worker (whose name I can't remember)? Seemed mostly to be coming from people who felt like she would 'be safe' and never do anything they disagreed with or have different ideas about a topic. That hate was bolstered by people not feeling like they'd be held accountable (because of both behind a screen and mob mentalities), but a lot of it came from a sense of parasocial betrayal.
@@elspethtirel2461 iirc, that was Buck Angel, a trans man that has a history of anti-NB takes. NB fans of Contrapoints were not really happy that she had him on for a voiceover, at least those that already knew of him and his reputation.
That being said, it got a lot of nastiness directed at Natalie that went way beyond criticizing her for having him on.
I'm seeing this happen a lot in Vtuber fandoms, with fans sending Superchats requesting that the talent do stuff like reciprocate romantic feelings or dedicate a song in a karaoke list to the sender's deceased friend. It's important to remember that celebrities aren't your friend: it's fun to follow them and it's cool if they address you specifically, but in the end they're doing a job and they have no obligation to dote on you specifically.
@@earthDF I hate how that kind of backlash turns into a perception of "group X fans" as if all people in group X think the same. A lot of us think the drama was unreasonable - the haters are just the loudest voices that speak over the rest of us.
thank you for also mentioning that jasmine masters coined “and i oop,” it’s crazy how many people don’t know that
What wait!? Holy fuck
The true crime is that Shea Coulee said 'oop!' in a confessional back in season nine and never gets any credit.
"Everybody who's dead shut up!" - me, when I drunkenly stumble into the cemetery at 3am
HAAAAAHAHAHA most underrated comment
POV: Your wine aunt has to babysit you for the day and she rants to you the entire time.
Nonono, Sarah is the coffee aunt, Lindsay is the wine aunt.
POV: your coffee aunt is probably younger than you are
@@Ultimus31 Natalie is your hard liquor aunt
Did any of you get the message about parasocial relationships with content creators?
@@jonathanlgill 100% agree
I once watched Griffin give a talk at some university about his podcasting career, trying to be as insightful and uplifting as possible, and once the Q&A section rolled around half the people bombarded him with completely unrelated questions about his favorite pokemon or whatever. This one person straight up said they didn't have a question and then tried to force "fuck, marry, kill" with his family's taz balance characters on him... absolutely unhinged
That one is almost surreal, he was just talking earnestly about stuff like creator burnout and the death of his mother but instead Q+A is a bunch of jokers trying to be funniest in the room
Wtf
This is horrible but he clearly bred this fanbase and deserves what he gets
@@DendyJungle Aw man, don't say that stuff. Internet stardom is still kind of relatively new and not understood, I can't blame the guy for amassing a fanbase like that just bc he was doing what he thought was best.
@@DendyJungle hey maybe saying that someone being asked their favorite pokemon after they just finished giving a talk involving topics like their mothers death "deserved" to be asked that simply due to their brand of comedy is uh. shitty perhaps!
I feel like I am extremely in on the joke with this video. Saz will say "the kind jokes and teasing you really only get from siblings" and I'll go "ah yes, dry fettuccine"
This is one of my favorite moments I still lose it wverytime I listen
the prestige!
@@alexandravelardes7692 my favorite part is when Griffin's bitterness over it spills over into other episodes lol.
@@alexandravelardes7692 The bit that always kills me is when Griffin just hollers, full of absolute brotherly rage, "WAIT, STOP! EVERYONE SHUT UP! DO THEY GIVE YOU RAW FETTUCINE TO CHEW ON AT OLIVE GARDEN?!" and the audience just immediately, in unison, shouting back "NO!!!!"
CHIPSSSSS
I love the “my very trans co-writer who is trans…” part because it sounds like “The poison for kuzco the poison chosen specially to kill Kuzco, Kuzco’s poison. That poison?” 😂
You find it weird how Kuzco was named after the Incan capital?
It would be like an English king called Londun
@@hilotakenaka london tipton
@@hilotakenaka hi! originally he was named “Manco Capac” after the first lord of cuzco in the story of the incan empire. they changed it bc manco meant something inappropriate in other countries. tried to make it “cusco” as a direct calling to the incan city (homage to the origin of the movie, which was meant to be based on incan myth and history), then later changed spelling to kuzco!!
@@jo3473 This is awesome! Though idk if I'd want him called Manco Capac anyway, as that was the guy who started the Inca Empire. Not a lot of time for poolside resort living...
@@hilotakenaka you know about Alexandria? Washington?😉
“if you’re a content creator, you’re probably going to do sponsorships for companies you don’t always 100% agree with, and it would be hypocritical for me to condemn them for that.” -missed opportunity to plug raid shadow legends
🤣
"A great way I learned how to properly research potential sponsors before including them in my videos was with a course from today's sponsor, Skillshare!"
This brought up a related point in my mind- Is anyone else frustrated by the people who act like media and representation is the be all and end all of activism? Like I promise you it isn’t. People who make mistakes in representation are not even remotely on the level of the truly horrible people out there who have much more to learn.
Yup.
"How dare these people do representation bad? TO HECK WITH THEM"
"What about this other group that's actively and loudly campaigning for the extinction of trans people"
"Eh. Not worth my time or energy to be angry about."
As an unrepresented minority I so much more appreciate the messy representation than the lack of any. Unless it's painfully offensive and obviously in bad taste, but it rarely is. It's mostly people who have never written about x minority trying to.
YES! THIS!!
Yes. There's no reason to waste your energy demanding perfect representation from non-minority people and then bombarding them with vitriol when they inevitably fail. Even if it's flawed, I can appreciate the effort and forgive when they apologize. There's far too many people with malicious intentions and people who don't care and refuse to apologize or learn from their mistakes.
YEAH SO MUCH. like. its so clear to me these people are terminally online and need to go touch grass and also volunteer at a food bank or start a mutual aid network or donate to a womens shelter in their community or petition for higher minimum wage laws or literally anything in the entire god damn world that addresses real peoples material needs. like yeah representation and media is important but its really really really not the thing you should be spending the majority of your time fixating on like if someone gives you that perfect representation all the worlds problems will be solved
i’ve been a huge fan of the mcelroys for years, but the fandom has always made me SO uncomfortable with the whole “sweet soft boys” thing. it feels super weird to infantilize grown men like that. it also just feels way too over-familiar of a way to speak about someone you don’t know, and almost creepy.
i thought the soft boy thing was ironic, "gremlins" would be a more appropriate fan label
@@iheartjackieyes That's always a more appropriate name for fan groups.
As someone who likes Kpop but refuses to engage in the fan(stan?)doms, it is horribly familiar...
There's a loooot of projecting in fandom to fulfill some want or need. If you feel like you need a precious smol baybee who you would die to protect, so-and-so becomes the precious smol baybee.
Tbh as someone only vaguely aware of the McElroys before now I always got bad toxic positivity vibes from what little I’d seen of them (or their fanbase at least). Alarm bells we’re going off for me when Sarah talked about the no bummers rule
As someone who binge listened to all of TAZ in 2021 without really looking up fandom content for a more genuine listening experience, the start of the bingus sequence made me think I'd slipped into an alternate reality for a couple of minutes
Girl same, I have listened to all of TAZ but never really look up fan content and I was like wtf have I lost my mind I don't remember Bingus who is Bingus??
News to me:
- that the internet has "turned" against the McElroys
- that there was a peak of mcelroy and we are past it
im sitting here like huh????
Yeah, no kidding. course, I just got into 'em (through Monster Factory and my wife making me listen to the Mango Cult bit) 2 years ago or so. Bit late to the party but better late than never. Not a huge D&D person, so haven't checked out TAZ.
What she describes sounds more like the fanbase morphing along with the general decline of society as a whole. How is that on the bros?
I am someone who has only involuntarily experienced Peak-TAZ second-hand via Tumblr posts (before blacklisting it), this is news to me too.
Okay i just had an audible sigh of relief
i love the mcelroys 🥺🥺🥺
i like how sarah was talking about trying not to be too jarring before immediately following up with “among us is a video game-“
See i even read this comment before i got to that point in the video and i still wasn't ready
Who tow?
A long time ago I had a realisation that I pretty much never want to go to a live recording of any podcast I listen to, not because I don't want to see my favourite creators live, but because I actually don't want to be around that many of their fans. This realisation came after listening to a MBMBaM episode.
There’s lots of good ones to go to where the fans are okay!
Yeah... the only ones I ever really want to go to live performances of are fiction podcasts, because those fandoms tend to be a lot more chill
@@yourlocaltheatrekid900do you have any fiction podcast recs?
@@watermelonlolipop oooh yes. The Magnus Archives is my personal favorite. I’ll put a list of some of my favs, but I recommend looking up content warnings for them
- The Magnus Archives
- Malevolent
- The Penumbra Podcast (Juno Steel arc)
- Fawkes and Stallion
- Wolf 359
Fandoms take unwarranted ownership of the content they consume. That's why you get people angry at the comic artist of the TAZ show to the point they sent the poor girl death threats. If anything I think the brothers have sometimes been too apologetic for things they really don't need to feel guilty about.
"Feels like a radio play written by Travis , in which the rest of the family are actors without the script." Oof that one got me. Honestly the hardest part of dming for me is not doing this thing.
Yeah, I did the same thing in my first few sessions as well. It was not great.
Obviously we can't say Balance didn't have issues, but they were organic and true to who the brothers were at the time. Travis was so busy trying to "do" something with his story that wasn't really his to do and was so heavy handed and forced that you could *feel* the family get bored- and the listener really wasn't far behind. I stopped listening really early into Graduation.
interestingly enough, i remember people saying that griffin was railroading to much when he was dming balance. I stopped listening for a while because i was still invested in those characters and couldn't really get into the newer archs. I tried listening to graduation but fell off pretty quickly because i thought just prefered griffin as a dm, I didn't realize how much travis took over until now.
@@piperrasmussen I agree Griffin railroaded, especially when there was expected to be a dramatic ending, but he also was performing versus being performative which I think is a huge part of what made Graduation problematic.
@@piperrasmussen I think a lot of my mistakes (and maybe travis'?) Is that I tried to recreate the cinematic feel of the last few balance arcs. They were such a highlight to the story that I attempted to make the whole story like that, and it bogged it down.
I only bring this up because I think griffin brought up how he did a similar thing with amnesty and ended up regretting it in a TTAZZ
I'm glad this is more of a rundown of the McElroys generally that takes the good and the bad without performatively pretending they're suddenly terrible now or secretly always were. The biggest drama at play is "their new D&D show was bad" and "Travis is kinda cringe and obnoxious". It's refreshing to see a massive essay like this *not* in response to some horrendous new info that came to light.
Oh phew. I was worried something had happened or been discovered with them that meant they shouldn’t be supported and i was just about to catch up on Sawbones...
I mean, let’s not brush over the fact that their new d&d show wasn’t just bad- it actively used anti-indigenous tropes that they never apologized for or addressed.
@@mregg-gy7jg Definitely fair. I more meant this isn't one of those "famous person turns out to be a groomer" things.
Yeah, I was really worried that it came out that one of them was a groomer or abuser, and while the DND criticisms are extremely valid (I have trouble with focusing for a long time on audio, so I never got into TAZ myself) I’m really glad it wasn’t something like that.
Thank you for saving me two hours.
"why isnt this character named Taco a Mexican??"
*I'm at my fucking limit.*
did she even mention the drama around how his sister was initially named chalupa, lol. (i'm only halfway thru the video)
@@luiysia iirc that was a fan theory they shot down in one of their behind the scenes episodes and it was either a complete coincidence or it wasn't a name they considered past a passing idea.
@@boopsnoot3142 I’m pretty sure it was going to be her name, but then the fandom decided taako and lup were Latino, and Griffin didn’t want a pair of Latino characters literally named “taco and chalupa”
It was more the white person inventing tacos thing.
@@Huntracony white person? isnt taako an elf?
So, the real funny thing to me about the Taako-is-a-racist-name thing is that Taco is actually a legit, fairly common boys' name in the Netherlands. (I had a teacher named Taco.) If only the boys had known this, they could've just claimed that Taako is Dutch, lmao. I know this probably wouldn't actually have helped, but I would've loved it anyway.
Sssh, all words are English on the Internet.
It is? I’ve never heard it and I’m from the Netherlands.
@@mevrouwasshat4041 Me neither, who pulled that out of their ass.
@@mevrouwasshat4041 it's a regional dialect.
I feel silly about it but when I heard about TAZ first, I genuinely thought it was Tako like the word for octopus in Japanese, or takoyaki
I feel like the words of a certain Brian David Gilbert work quite well here: "I am not your friend and you have no say over what I do with my body"
I feel like little nudges like that, just reminding the audience of the nature of the relationship, are probably really healthy to this whole affair.
Like a mini reality check.
@@marinemanaphy101 He also seems to enjoy brutal honesty and bluntness, even being mean in his humor, it's like he breaks the fourth wall just to slap you.
Edit: just to clarify, BDG is one of my favorite content creators. I especially enjoy the way he likes to shove his middle finger in the face of the people who fuss over his hair by essentially destroying it on video.
The fact BDG is so unapologetic with his boundaries as a creator makes me respect him so much.
Where'd Brian say that?
@@cartoonhanks1708 the dark souls bosses unraveled! I can find the link if you'd like, one sec
I envy the people who are here to learn about something they don’t care about because I feel like I’m about to have a comfort blanket set on fire OTL
I feel the same way, I’m not gonna be able to watch the rest of it until after work so I hope I’ll be ok
Yeah I feel you....
I feel understood!
Yes. Deeply this.
This describes the feeling super well.
It's wild to remember that I was in the live show audience for the first time they showed the trailer for TAZ:Graduation (to the point that they told us not to reveal the name/concept yet because it hadn't been officially announced) and to look back on that knowing how contentious the arc became. It was a totally different vibe. I remember a big cheer going up when they announced Travis would be DMing
SAME!!
I was at the show too, and that hype watching the trailer with everyone and the excitement there I think just added to the let down graduation became D:
I liked graduation, is also the first taz arc that I listened to week to week but I thought graduation was alright.
"It must be nice to be on a podcast where it isn't obvious who the least popular host is" - Travis McElroy, Death Blart 2021
Oh god that’s rough. I do feel bad for Travis, that kinda shit can really mess you up and I’ve only ever dealt with it in like…small friend groups
I can’t imagine what that feels like. I wish people would understand that the person you are talking about is a real person
I guess middle child syndrome still exists to that extent.
Shame, I actually kinda prefer Trav to the other two most the time.
@@SnowyJop you shouldnt feel bad for him. he sucks
Thats so rough and relatable. 😭 When I first started listening to MBMBAM, I found him a little annoying, but he quickly became my favorite. Now, midweek when I don’t have a new podcast to listen to involving him, I find myself specifically wanting to hear Travis. ❤️
when you talk about the conflict between the mcelroy's relationship as a family vs the reality that they are professionals working together, it reminds me of that clip from the mbmbam show where justin pretends his hand is a spider to freak travis out and they had to stop the cameras for a min because, and i quote, "It was not brother weird, but it was professionals-working-together weird FOR SURE." which I think supports the whole idea that this has been an ongoing tension of sorts, that they have been facing for a long time, because it is kind of inherent to making your close family members business partners in the entertainment industry.
travis did a hit
I mean, I've worked with family in several other industries and it's ALWAYS that kind of weird disconnect and stressful frustration of roles. (Ask anyone who has done a family restaurant; it's torture.) But considering their brand literally grew out of "brotherly hijinks" and then dumping parasociality on top, I'm surprised it hasn't boiled over before. They literally had to disclaim the "Travis tortures the other brothers with his unfunny bits" on MBMBAM recently I'm guessing because the Travis hate machine didn't quite get "that's the joke, we're brothers."
Mmy Moon it’s still wild to me that people don’t get the joke there lol. Must be people without siblings? Annoying your brothers with “ideas” or “games” but are actually just dumb shit is a time honored pastime. I’ve got three brothers myself and those bits always get me
@@xIQ188x pour one out for all the deprived only children or people with stoic siblings. I can only hope a suitably impish friend comes into their lives to bring joyful torment because I can't really imagine it. When I was a sleep-deprived teenager, my little brother would silently sneak into my room only to play the trumpet directly into my ear. And that's what brotherhood is all about.
@@xIQ188x Riddle me Piss was my favorite recurring bit specifically because of how angry it made them
Sarah is right; “That’s a Christmas to Me” is the absolute best bit and there should be much much more of it.
Facts
personally I'd like to see more Minion Quotes as well.
@@newflesh666 Justin is the king of bits
@@newflesh666 As a dejected Justin would say: “Imagine!!”
I don't like the Smirls but you're absolutely right
If they wanted to destroy capitalism, helping the training bears unionize probably would have gone better than a heist
I was SO STOKED when the Thundermen LLC took it upon themselves to literally 'destroy the system from the inside', and then it went... absolutely nowhere. And took forever to do it. :(
OK, well that gives me an idea for my next D&D campaign
I feel like all the campaigns after the first forgot a fundamental thing all dnd nerds know: If your campaign starts as Lord of the Rings, it quickly devolves into Monty Python, or else everyone gets bored. But when you start out at Monty Python? Those are the campaigns that end up getting the heartfelt speeches and the character deaths that make the whole table cry.
Oh yeah. And the same goes for characters btw! Make a straight laced lawful good gruff guy with a tragic backstory? Gonna be a part of eeeeevery joke in the campaign. Make a literal clown that juggles knifes with the returning enchantment as a weapon? He's gonna make players cry irl. EVERY TIME.
Latest campaign of PF2E I had was a great example. One of the characters was based on Godrick the Motherloving Grafted (from Elden Ring) and played up to maximum memeing. Screaming about his ancestors witnessing him, being completely demented, egotistical, a barbarian (obvs), etc. Halfway through the campaign every other player and me just wanted to give that poor, broken man a hug...
Another far more loosely based on Melina, was an ashes oracle, played up as a complete piromaniac whose every other sentence was a pun and who insisted on screaming "god is great" whenever she intentionally triggeted her curse. (Note: PF2E's oracles have curses where if they do certain powerful acts the game balances by triggering it. The Ashes Oracles' makes both herself and everything/one around her take a LOT of added damage from fire spells.) (Note 2: "Ackbar" means "Great" in arabic... YEAH) Sure enough first time she went and did a suicide bomb knowing her character would die I had to give everyone a 10 minute break 'cause I was literally crying.
There ain't nothing more tragic than a meme PC. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
Damn straight
This is actually very true. Sure I had a game that was pretty serious but bland that went to epic scopes, my favorite game was one that started as us fighting a parody of the Jackie Chan cartoon's second season. Almost a year later our three "a$$holes with moxie" had bonds forged in blood and fire fighting a god before being unable to decide how to accept making a self sacrifice to fill the void that god now left open in causality
As someone from Huntington and yet not a fan of the brothers, reminders of their intense online popularity feels like whiplash when my experience with them was just stuff like running into Justin at the UPS store lol
I always tell people to think of the guy they heard on the radio on the bus ride to school and consider for me that was Clint McElroy.
@@lizardlee10 your bus played radio in the morning? I'd say that would be torture but for a year a kid in the back of my bus would badly and loudly sing radioactive. Every. Single. Day.
Yes I live in Cincinnati and take classes at a theater where Travis worked so he’s always been this peripheral character who is sometimes mentioned in the theater just like past cast members are; like everyone loves them but I’ve never met them, of that makes sense?
@@gemmamoon5998 lol it was tradition for my friend group in undergrad to go see Marshall U's production of A Christmas Carol that Clint was in for a few years
@@makebelievetonight aw that’s sweet! Who did he play?
ok listen I'm half Mexican and I've not experienced any McElroy content ever but I am SO GLAD they didn't make Taco Mexican and I cannot believe people found it PROBLEMATIC that they didn't make Taco Mexican oh my goodness
It's not even Taco, but 'Taako', because Justin wanted to come up with a stupid jokey 'fantasy' name back when there was no real character concepts and it was all a bit of a fuck around. It's utterly meaningless. It's only later on they started riffing on how Taako was destined to invent the taco. I knew the fandom would be Those Types which is why I've always just avoided it and enjoyed the content in isolation.
Yeah, dude. I'm Mexican as well and I got the fucking sweats when Sarah said fans actually wanted Taako to be Mexican, omg
It's weird that people were looking at the graphic novel and going, "but there's no diversity?" to the cis white men that make up the entirety of the cast. The fact that those same exact people were also expecting a stereotype of a Mexican elf...
@@AndromedaD it's not so weird if you realize the common factor is whiteness, lol
I’m not Mexican but I am Hispanic and I heaved a sigh of relief that they made him blue and not Mexican like oh my god close call
Is it weird that I find "making an ass of yourself sometimes" and "problematic attempts at including minorities" to be refreshingly mundane reasons for fans to turn on creators? Have I set the bar too low because of how many celebrities turned out to be child groomers or espoused actual Nazi ideology? Not to say that the other stuff doesn't deserve criticism and improvement, because they very much do, but there's a level of moral decay I've come to expect from celebrities that just hasn't been reached here, and I'm oddly relieved?
This is an excellent way of putting it.
You know what, that’s a really optimistic spin on this all. I was mostly just darkly reflecting on the way people will-despite their claims to the contrary-do their level best to protect random cishet white men on the internet for NO reason, which I am about sick of. But you’re right! They got justified criticism that was widely acknowledged by people within and outside the fanbase. Certainly a step forward.
Says a lot more about the people griping than the people being griped about. As in: please, stop being fans, I never, ever want to meet you in real life.
same? I always heard of them but never knew much about them, so when i saw this video and its title i was waiting for a big fan grooming scandal or something
This is a really good comment and definitely puts this entire thing into perspective
im just imagining being a grown adult and being lectured to about what bad people do and how we all need to have fun
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us, only sky
Imagine all the people
Livin' for today
Ah
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Livin' life in peace
You
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
Imagine being told to shut up by someone talking like a baby, and then getting lectured on how we need to be nice to each other.
Travis is very lucky he was playing with nice people.
As a 30 year-old, I about had a heart attack when I realized peak McElroy culture was FIVE YEARS AGO.
same lol
Just wait. Lol.
wow! You'are old!
@@seeeds4702 30 isn't old.
I didn't even start listening to their stuff til about 3 years ago, blissfully unaware
This is it. The moment I finally find out how many McElroys there are.
Update: I'm still not sure.
A much as Tobys
It didn’t help when Sarah referred to them as “2 straight white guys” followed by two separate asterisks saying it could also be 3 or 4 depending on who counts.
About half as many as there are Tom Bodetts.
I'm in the same boat as you lol.
3 brothers plus a dad on the tabletop podcast. The brothers mix and match to make different content with each other + their wives. Hope this helps
This and the Jenny Nicholson vid on Vampire Diaries prove that ill be entertained by stuff I have no earthly idea about as long as it is presented in a entertaining way. Never listened to MBMBAM or knew that they even had a dnd show.
The Jenny Nicholson Vampire Diaries vid is a masterpieces
same
I wish I could like Jenny but sometimes her takes are real bad imo lol
same!
I have listened to MBMBAM before, but never TAZ, and I have never seen a TVD episode in my life before and SAME.
fucking love the incredible tradition of cropping Nick Robinson out of the clip of Griffin eating the banana every time
Who? /s
@@ethandubois7536 he was a member of Polygon who did some really bad stuff regarding sexual harassment of female coworkers
@@integra8472 “/s” implys sarcasm, the above comment was a joke.
@@abigaileldritch Either way, the explanation was helpful for me 😂
@@integra8472 fuck I follow him on UA-cam because I genuinely love some of his videos and had no idea wtf
Reading his name here was like ?!? That Nick Robinson?!?
oh god i almost literally died of second hand embarrassment from the travis among us part
I have never been able to watch the whole thing, it's too much
I watched it live, it was a trip man...
i haven’t watched the video yet but oh god i’m gonna skip right past it. i’ve never had the guts to watch that video in full and i’m not gonna start now lmao
@@fishwiki_ very very good plan
I don't get why people seek out cringe videos like that, it's physically painful to me. And I have no emotional connection to that dude one way or the other.
I cant imagine how depressing it must've been for Travis to see Bingus become so organically popular out of pure spite from the fans
“bingus isn’t real, and never was” surprised me so much lol
"Audible gasp" Blasphemy. Lol
They're real to me!
Meee
why does this have 611 likes 😭 thanks guys
Wait, people were arguing that because a character was named Taco they HAD to be Mexican? Really? Did they not see how that would be even MORE racist?
Reeks of whitesplaining
It's like when people complained that a dark skinned character in my hero academia should be voiced by a black actress. She was. And when they found out, they told her she should sound "more black".
@@user-vl8ws4wd7o Reeks of being dumb.
@@swguygardner huge yikes
Taako, it was in a fantasy world where the Taco was named after him. So if he -invented- the Taco, you would have a white -man- elf -inventing- discovering the Taco.
Partially Redacted because I barely remember the actual reason, but people below have already corrected me, so read their explanations
I absolutely agree with your take on parasocial relationships. Parasocial relationships by themselves, neutral. Parasocial relationships plus entitlement, that’s where you run into issues. Being passionate and a fan of someone and their content isn’t inherently a problem, but when you start expecting certain behavior out of them that extends past “being a bare-minimum decent person who isn’t perfect but at least tries their best”, then that things start to snowball out of control.
In my opinion, it's best to remain just a fan of that certain person's work, and nothing more. You will never know the inner workings of a content creator's personal life, and as long as you try to remain emotionally distant from that person, you'll be avoiding a lot of potential future hurt when less than savoury things about them are revealed to the public.
48:06 okay but the bisexual character falling for the first female person she meets has me feeling _very_ represented
Same, tbh
it's almost like characters and their sexualities can cover a wide range of behaviors that hit familiar to some people but not others!
@@professorhazardgooooo figure😅
I was looking for this comment and same lol
Really glad you talked about how the prominence of parasocial relationships can affect a fandom; it's something I think gets overlooked a lot when discussing the fandoms of celebrities/online personalities, despite how prominent (and harmful) they can sometimes be
CriticalRole springs to mind- parts of that fanbase have been downright vicious towards Marisha.
Another great take from my good, personal friend, Red Bard.
I kind of want the 2 types of dangerous para social relationships Sarah laid out to become internet reference points.
Like they really help cut through a lot of the conversations and discourse I see around internet personalities.
Reminds me of TotalBiscuit (yeah yeah, I know he was "problematic") actively discouraging his fanbase from forming an "identity"/"fandom". I remember him basically talking about how he didn't want the "Cynical Fleet" (as some of his fans called themselves) to be a thing, and how he was not our friend, he was just some fucking guy talking about shit online. He also disliked the term "fan" to begin with. It was fairly sobering for a much younger me, at least.
Hey Red hows the life of a snake in the grass treating you?
There's got to be a middle ground between the uncritical, toxic positivity, and the unrelenting nit-picking negativity that fan communities tend to fall into. There should absolutely be room for critical thinking and criticism within a fan community, but if I go to engage with a community of other fans, I'm doing that because I want to talk about something I like. If I go to a community of fans of a Thing and the entire vibe is that nobody actually likes the Thing, that's an unhealthy community dynamic, and it's not something that's generally solvable by creators. The only perceivable solution to me is for people to stop engaging with things that are bringing us more frustration than enjoyment. Critical thinking is important and good, but if it's ruining your ability to actually enjoy the media you're intentionally choosing to consume, you have two solutions: either lighten up on the criticism, or stop consuming that media and find something else that you'll actually enjoy. This can be a difficult task and a really difficult conclusion to come to, especially when people have formed part of their identity around liking a particular piece of media. But at this point knowing when to disengage from something is a vital life skill.
Your post basically illustrates why such middle ground is essentially non-existent in most online communities. People who are willing to say "I don't care for this anymore, i'll move on" are the exact type of people who do not make tons of fan works, post on reddit, or create a massive essay on criticisms/praise of the thing they consume. For example, look at how many people in this very comment section had the response "wait, I'm a casual fan and had no idea any of this was happening". The people Sarah Z covers are inevitably the most vocal group of people.
@@popsicleman8816 I think you're spot on. When a piece of media is a part of someone's identity and then it doesn't quite deliver the way it used to (whether that's because it changed or because they did), it seems like it's easier for some people to transition their identity into not liking or downright hating that thing than it is to extricate their identity from the thing entirely. Maybe we should not be basing our identities around the things we consume.
This is the best comment about this subject I've seen, great statement.
It’s a useful skill for sure, but knowing more content will be coming is what keeps people staying engaged. If TAZ was fully finished, I’d agree with you
@@brianmidkiff5408 I don't think the fact that it's ongoing affects my point in any way--I think that people staying on the bandwagon just because it's still going even if they're not enjoying it are falling into a similar trap with the same results. It's some combination of fear of missing out and sunk cost fallacy, and it's keeping people engaged in things long past the point where they were actually enjoying them. It just causes them frustration and distress, which they sometimes choose to spread outward. There's no good reason anyone should continue to read a book, watch a show, or listen to a podcast they're not enjoying anymore. If we could collectively get a little bit better at recognizing when we're not getting actual enjoyment out of something and a little bit better at letting go of that thing, I think it would make the world (especially the online world) a better and healthier place.
"you really do get a vibe of family closeness when you listen."
I like to point out how they start each episode by introducing themselves as "YOUR (oldest/middlest/sweet baby) brother." They're OUR brothers. All of our brothers. Brothers of all humankind.
My brother, my brother, and *us*
BROTHERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE!
It's because of their father's radio host history. That used to be a more common style of phrase. Think "Your friendly neighborhood Spiderman"
In the end, are we not all of us brothers, in a way
Makes u think
I think the complaint about shifting from a fantasy setting to a scifi setting in the flashback arc is unhinged considering the story had huge scifi fantasy stuff since the end of the very first arc, where they fly up to a moon base???
I agree, but to be fair the moon base had more of a fantasy vibe. Like the glass elevator in willy wonka
@@notapplicable6985 for me it was a star wars scifi/fantasy vibe, taking place over an ignorant world. final fantasy magitech type shit
Admittedly, I began watching this video in bad faith. I'm a massive fan of the McElroys who can say honestly that their content, as well as the sense of community that comes with it, has pushed me through some of the darkest times in my life, and I was worried you would attack this interest fundamentally. Thus, I was caught a bit off-guard when you recognized and addressed this concern. I appreciate well-structured criticism of the works we love, and I'm glad I was able to sit through this and understand the perspectives you gave in this video despite my biases going in. TAZ Balance was my gateway drug into the McElboy canon, and until now, I've been rather reluctant to reflect on its many flaws, representationally or otherwise. Even the works we love are not devoid of flaws, and what they can accomplish for us is separate from their intent(s) as content.
This isn't some dramatic "thank you for helping me see the light" post, just a legitimate response to your essay as way of thanks for tweaking the way I appreciate content going forward. Once again, my personal consequence was not your intent, but appreciated nonetheless.
Also any future readers please rate below how pretentious this looks, deuces ✌
This is always a super great thing to hear! I'm both glad you still get a lot of enjoyment out of their content (honestly, so do I- and I *am* actually excited to pick up on the next TAZ season once gameplay starts) and that you were able to enjoy the video. Thanks so much :)
Idk about pretentious - maybe a little? Mostly you just seem a little awkward, but like you had an unexpected positive experience that changed who you are just a little bit, and wanted to say thank you. We dont always get to thank the people who affect us, so may as well when you feel good about what you've gotten to think about and know where those ideas were introduced, even if they're not utterly life changing.
"It is both possible - and even nessescary - to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of its more problematic or pernicious aspects." - Anita Sarkeesian
You weren't pretentious. You are just trying to put into words your feelings in a constructive way as a statement of how the video impacted you and why you appreciated the positive criticism. Or maybe I am also pretentious. Either way works.
Well given constructive type critique is a form of affection imho. So being able to see something (or someones) flaws and not deny or obfuscate them just shows a more true love to me. I think you just figured that out and it's awesome to see in the wild.
Sarah: the mcelroy brothers are-
Me: not experts and their advice should never be followed
I'm really surprised I haven't seen more of this in the comments. Lol
Travis insists he’s a sex-pert, but if there’s a degree on his wall I haven’t seen it
Also this show is not for babies, which I say only so you babies out there will know how cool you are for listening
what's up, cool babies
...honestly if this had become a fan community motto like "no bummers" did, this would probably have avoided some of the drama
My take on the centaurs is that it sounds like they took a bunch of tropes that are extremely common in D&D and the fantasy genre as a whole without recognizing that they had roots in indigenous stereotypes. The sad truth is that the summary you gave is extremely familiar to me, and I highly doubt it was a conscious decision to base them on indigenous people.
This isn’t to say that the McElroys have no responsibility here. When imitating other stories you need to be aware of stuff like this, and I definitely think they need to apologize. But I think the genre as a whole really needs to reexamine these tropes because it is FAR from unique to TAZ.
This is a super good point too- the TTRPG world in general has its roots in a sort of Eurocentrism, and while both DND and other systems are moving away from it (lots of amazing systems made by people of colour especially seek to challenge those tropes and narratives), they’re still found in all sorts of places in the genre, and can often get picked up on even unintentionally.
I agree. I don't think it was intentional, but the lack of a response was sad. Usually when they make mistakes they'll own up to it, it's part of what people like about them. Justin's Kardala was way worse though, it's pretty crazy to think that made it through a diversity consultant
Wait so are centaurs’ history rooted in racism or did they start off normal but then got associated with racist ideas and strereotypes over time?
@@wolfstar1253 It's not about Centaurs in particular (there is a theory that they were based on horse riding nomad tribes but I think those specific cultures don't really exist anymore) but about the tropes that surround "barbarian tribes" and white savior narratives in general in fantasy stories.
@@eliburry-schnepp6012 That clears it up a lot. Thanks for the insight friend!
As of 2023 I believe the McElroy brothers are more healthy people with a more healthy fandom.
Agreed. Them being less attractive to the remaining "fans" who were interested in the occasional shittiness from their earlier days isn't a bad thing.
Definitely feel it was also a sense of burnout with them and fans during covid that really just pushed things harder. Being unable to go all out with live shows for 18 months really just let everyone stew with just the podcast releases and very few fun events to drive the fandom besides some virtual live shows.
@@ananimal9779Shut up lol
@@notveryniceatall what's the diameter of your starfish? I bet you're incontinent.
@@notveryniceatall hey, you're not very nice at all!
Every time Sara Z says "I'll explain more later" it triggers my fight or flight
Why is this so accurate
I promise you, if they had made Taako a Mexican it would've been ACTUALLY offensive.
Fr, like that story, regardless of context was so weird. Yes we should have diversity in media, but an adaptation of a podcast about cishet white guys having their player characters reflect those traits until stated otherwise (Taako being gay, Aubrey being bi/Latina) doesn't seem like it should be seen as problematic, just indicative of the storyteller's POV and limits.
I rather like the idea of taako being an elf, and inventing the taco, just like how the Roman's invented the hamburger before anybody else, guess what the concept of a "taco" exists in many iterations. I'm mexican btw.
As a Mexican, I wouldn't really care either way, we have bigger shit to worry about, but the white people saying that he HAS to be Mexican get on my nerves.
No joke, my (white) cousin dated a Mexican guy for several years who called himself "Taco". He would just laugh off attempts at trying to ascertain his real name, and it wasn't a language barrier or anything, because the guy spoke English better than my American ass.
@@passionpeachy1370 as a fellow Mexican I agree. These people ain't perfect sure. But taako is the least of our problems. What with 3 usa presidents in a row putting mexican and Hispanic kids in cages and forcibly sterilizing hispanic women like its nothing
The McElroys are really funny but seeing people try to replicate the “good good boy” speech they do is so unbearably cringey
?
@@SmilingJack100 I believe the OP is referring to the speech patterns and McElroy-isms that Sarah addresses around the eight minute mark.
Yes I liken it to the uwu speak or baby talk that people do… so hard to listen to. You can TELL when someone thinks the mcelroys r funny and want to make jokes like them and it almost always falls flat
I can't stand their speech patterns- it's why I've never finished a whole episode. I have zero interest in hearing grown men do baby-talk to each other.
Ah, that's like... 90% of the internet now
God, learning about the Bingus phenomenon, I'm suddenly hoping Sarah dusts off her Tumblr historian credentials and covers the Goncharov phenomenon someday.
I love that movie!
I have no clue who/what that is but I'm certainly intrigued
Sweet mother of unicorns, it even has a full on google card, with release date, poster, actors, everything. Damn, I love the internet XD
@@deirenne of course it would, it's peak cinema
As someone who doesn't interact much with the community it is bizarre to hear so much negativity happened. I'm not saying the family is perfect but I never felt like they owed me anything so I just enjoyed their content as they chose to produce it.
Their setup invites a feeling of intimacy which is what I think brought on this kind of scrutiny. They've made it very clear they're constantly trying to do better and they're fuckin' human. It's hard to be a cis white guy promoting an inclusive and diverse world. Everything in front of you is quicksand because they're babies who doesn't know stuff. They're trying and caring so much more than anyone else I've seen. I have no idea why people choose to focus their anger on these active allies
@@atapper10 I agree with you 100%. I have a ton of respect for them trying to be as inclusive as possible, and of course they're going to make mistake but you learn and grow from them. If the majority of the feedback they get on their inclusive characters is negative, then I think that would make almost anyone give up on trying to be inclusive. It would be exhausting to always be told your efforts aren't good enough and frankly I'm surprised they still try so hard to be inclusive to an audience that is so ungrateful. My "McElroy bubble" so to speak, has pretty much been Monster Factory, MbMbaM and their tv show, so I too was surprised to hear about a lot of this.
@@atapper10 Eh it’s not because they’re cis white dudes. Most of us are allies of SOMEthing.
it was a perfect storm, honestly
@@asmrtpop2676 Very true, I guess my point is what if you were expected to be a perfect ally of everything?
my favorite thing about this comment section is everyone spelling taako’s name wrong
Every time I see him called “Taco” I lose a year off my life lmao
I didn't even consume their media but even I knew it was Taako due to cultural osmosis.
All Adventure Zone adventures be like:
Beginning: lol, such a silly and wacky show. I liked.
Middle: Oh boy, that's some heavy drama
Ending: Than a giant space entity shows up
That also happens to be the plot of every Studio Trigger anime, so that's fun
Kirby games be like
@@GayAndDog oh… I hate this
Thank you
I really hope this new season isn’t another bad guy from another dimension
Sounds like an average JRPG to me
It sounds like there are much higher expectations of the McElroys than there ought to be. It’s been wise of them to not get wrapped up in defending themselves. Too often we see someone experiencing backlash, dig in their heels and try to fight and justify their viewpoint leading to just giving up on even the appearance of being good.
They've said it so many times, too. And not in like the dismissive "I'm Trying to cover my ass" kind of way but in the "hey we're aware of the space we occupy" kind of way.
So often they say "Hey we're just three white dudes we could be wrong about things and if we are! Whoops! Sorry!"
And it sucks that that's not enough for some people.
the fact that this comment section holds the most civil discussion of Mcelroy content I've seen in years says a lot about who is still participating in the fandom at all. personally, I've never been big on fandom, but i end up on one of the subreddits or something bc I'm trying to remember a bit and it's been consistently baffling to see how black and white the fandom is. it's either "the good good boys can do no wrong" or "haha wouldn't it be funny if the brothers kicked travis out?" with very little civility in between.
In that case, I'm glad I've avoided the fandom, because that's exactly what I expected it would be like.
Tbh, I love Travis
I do
But kicking him out would be the most hilarious bit
If it was a bit
In my opinion, labelling ANYONE a “woke” icon or something is not right. No one can have all experiences and knowledge to be aware of every single issue and culture. Let alone labelling some straight cis white guys as these is is just unfair. But I think the fact that they managed to improve themselves and be better about general issues is amazing
Yeah that was the trouble I was having when I dipped my toe in online McElroy Brothers spaces years ago, where it started with the "good boy" assumption so it became about how they were automatically good and so their actions were good rather than their actions could be judged for what they were without making it about the inherent goodness or badness of anyone. It was just so hostile to any dissent.
@@riverofmolecules the internet does seem to just classify people into "good" and "bad" categories and when someone conciedered "good" does a "bad" thing (I'm talking about more minor mishaps, some caused by ignorance and ones generally responded by the creators) people either refuse to see it or are shattered. I guess the parasocial relationship aspect of it where you don't really know the people does contribute to it.
Putting people on pedestals never does anyone any good. We're all fucking stupid and we all make irrational, thoughtless, even horrible mistakes even with the best of intentions, and put anyone in any sort of position where any sort of mistake only leads to them being labelled as horrible is cruel. Similarly, idolizing them so they can no longer so any wrong in your eyes is equally foolish. Being able to acknowledge that your heroes are fallible is a sign of strength.
Yeah it's neither good for the fans nor the creators themselves. Look what happened to Jenna Marbles. She wasn't cancelled by the fans, she just couldn't handle the assumptions anymore that she is perfect and "unproblematic".
But also be mindful some shows/podcasts have a specific "style" that may or may not represent the actual political/social views of the creators. Lots of shows do that, Cum Town is the big one, they probably aren't as horrible as they sound on the podcast, it's edgy "bro" humor, that's the demographic. That being said, it can be reflective but people get WAAAAY too worked up over COMEDY podcasts or shows.
NEVER appeal to superfans. It's just a sugar high; you will eventually crash.
The online space have become so perverse that online people are being condemned for not acting like brands, while brands online are pretending to be people.
I think there's something fundamentally unsustainable about trying to maintain the idea that a given content creator/media franchise is either morally "right" or "wrong." People are inevitably going to disappoint you and that doesn't make them suddenly your enemy. It just means your view of them was inaccurate.
Yeah, if people demand that everything they consume meets a constant, perfect standard of subjective ideological purity they would quickly run out of things to enjoy if they dug deep enough.
@@ShoggothsAway Exactly! Also it's exhausting! Nobody's perfect and everyone has different ideas of what's right or wrong that are always changing
I think this probably stems from a desire to enforce critical thinking of media, and not be a passive consumer who engages in no way with products they are being sold. That said I think the mistake a lot of people make is that after a critical process of analysis, that inevitably concludes in finding imperfection, it becomes morally questionable to keep enjoying the thing, bc it feels like endorsing a bad action or idea. My personal take is that if you have clear principles of right and wrong, you will be able to disagree with an aspect of media without branding it as inherently good or bad.
I fundamentally think applying black and white morality to anything in life is generally irrational and a bad idea for numerous functional reasons.
@@anamariaalonso7645 The problem is, this binary sense of "good" and "bad" and the push to cling to a sense of moral purity runs counter to critical thinking. Moral judgment in this sense (not in terms of evaluating harm, but in terms of essentialist 'good' and 'evil' views of things or people) is moreso a deeply emotional process, not a rational one, and it shuts down critical analysis by leaving people unwilling or unable to apply nuance in favor of their idealized versions of reality.
It's a drive to criticize, certainly, but moral panics aren't a manifestation of critical *thinking* in specific. I've found that the attitude is more aligned with conservatism than any sort of genuine progressivism, even if the aesthetics are progressive, because it's ruled by fear.
I feel like this happens to most Internet Creators
They start off as "Friends" to their small fan base
But as they grow to a mIllion fans, they officially become a big business but still try to keep that "Friends" tag.
Eventually the fans come to realize that the "Friends" Era is over and it's time to move on.
Except people don't move on and instead decide to hate-watch and attack their once beloved creators.
Jokes on you, I'm the ENEMY of my small ""fan""base
I feel like the step shouldnt be "move on" but instead realize you don't know them but if they helped you in anyway a nd you still like them then continue to support them and enjoy the content but have divorced yourself from it.
All I know is the funny monster factory videos. The way you all obsess over internet people is just weird.
This is big time mood with RoosterTeeth. A large portiong of their OG fanbase resents them purely for being big and different to the tiny buddy zone it started out as.
(thats not to say there haven't been thing to legitimately get upset with RT for, but ironically hatewatchers usually like to defend them on those points)
Oh man, now you made me scared that this will probably happened to Critical Role eventually :/
Hey, its me, that one insane person who wrote the Graduation character list (the one with bingus)
Just wanted to say, i think this video is great!! I think it does a great job covering everything the TAZ community (particularly on the subreddit) has been going through over the past year, and also paints a pretty fair picture of the positives and negatives while also, yknow, not going overboard on criticism or anything. I'm glad someone was able to do justice to the period of time the fandom was in during Graduation because it was kind of insane.
I was always someone who would try to mediate between "grad critics" and "grad enjoyers" because, yknow, a lot of the time they were both right, they had just formed opinions about the other side that made it harder to understand each other.
I've seen it happen before with steven universe, and I assume i'll watch this happen over and over again with other fandoms. Oh well.
It's also kind of personally validating for the list I made for my own personal need to categorize things actually end up helping a lot of people,
and then have one of my stupid jokes blow up into something so big that it even crosses paths with a youtuber whose content i already liked ^^;
(oh yeah ALSO: Griffin did not actually say Fitzroy was aromantic and asexual! in the TTAZZ, Griffin said Fitzroy was "asexual, but not necessarily aromantic". maybe there's something to be said about forcing an npc relationship onto the asexual character specifically, but i don't think it was as actively problematic as people still claim it was.)
Hey, I'm not active on the sub anymore, and this video is the closure I needed for Grad, but just wanted to thank you well, both for this comment because it perfectly encapsulates my thoughts too, but also for bingus lmao I love them. So yeah, thanks and have a great day/night!
as someone who has never watched a single TAZ episode, thank you for your providing me with a good fucking laugh at bingus and bingus's reveal
Ok so I haven't watched the video but like holy shit people thought having an asexual character experiencing romantic attraction was problematic???? What the actual heck, that makes 0 sense, romantic asexuals are fully valid and deserve representation just as much as aromantic asexuals.
Hi, I had a few questions regarding the Fitzroy being hit on: how persistent was it, and was it consistent after Fitzroy declined? How was the person hitting on Fitzroy treated in the story ("dude, not cool", "haha, they can't get laid", or "this is romantic"?)
Because in my mind, one of the most bizarre and unrealistic things about romance/relationships in games (both ttrpg and videogames) is that the player character is always the party that initiates. So it actually seems interesting and realistic to have a npc be the one who asks out a player, even if the player character has no interest in the npc in question. I feel like if it isn't done too persistently and invasively, it could actually work well as a character moment in how they handle such situation.
@@popsicleman8816 The thing is, Fitzroy never had a direct moment of rejecting Rainer's advances. Travis treated it more like... an awkward school-crush? Some moments were teased as semi-romantic (like when they wanted to meet Rainer's lich dad and she was like "you wanna meet my dad??😳") and they had a little laugh about how awkward it is. Also in episode 19 (around 47:23 using the maxfun version), in the ambiguous "future dream" that Chaos puts Fitzroy into, Rainer is shown have proposed to Fitzroy in the future, and it's kind of unclear whether this was something that would actually happen in the future, or if it's something that Chaos did that was meant to tempt Fitzroy, or if it's something that Travis thought that Fitzroy would have actually wanted.
In earlier exchanges between Fitzroy and Rainer, Fitz seemed to gravitate towards her, probably because she stood out in the NPC introductions of the first episode, cause she was cheery and the necromancer gimmick was fun. The PCs choosing to interact with Rainer in scenes is the reason she's actually a recurring character at all really. However when Rainer indicates romantic interest, Fitzroy is shown to either avoid the subject or indicate slight discomfort, which i guess Travis could have read as "funny awkward moment".
By the end of the show, the romance plotline is just Completely Dropped, Rainer barely even shows up at the end. So ultimately it just kind of fizzled out. Which indicates to me that Travis had no idea what else to even do with it. Many people (myself included) were expecting Fitzroy to have a moment where he turns Rainer down and they just remain as friends, but it just never came.
I don't think it's inherently bad that Rainer was crushing on Fitzroy, i just think it could've been handled a lot better
Sarah Z: The first episode is two hours long and is dedicated mostly to introducing the characters.
Me, a DM and a player: What? Why's that so bad?
Sarah Z: Not the player characters. Travis' non-playable characters.
Me: Oh. Oh. Oh no.
Lmao Vex?
@@wyrmwood9457 Yes?
@@VexWerewolf I like your lancer memes, just funny seeing you on a mostly unrelated part of the internet
Cool pfp
Me: NO! NOT THE DMPCS!
Sarah I am absolutely OBSESSED with how you manage to work the word “buckwild” into every video
My notes say “buck wild, hog wild and drool”.
Canadian: "I should still define this.. "
Me: "It's parasocial relationships isn't it"
Canadian: "Parasocial relationshps"
Me: Bingo!
Why is everyone calling her Canadian instead of Sarah please I'm so confused
more like bingus am i right
@@meg7020 cuz she's canadian lol
Bingus*
@@surgecentral05 ik but I've never seen ppl use nationality as a nickname for a youtuber , I thought I missed a joke or smt
I had never once heard the phrase "no tea no shade no lemonade" until Sarah mentioned it here, and yet I immediately said to myself "that's gotta be a drag queen phrase."
*"pink* lemonade specifically 😂
Lmao was surely about to say the lemonade is PINK! 😂🤣
I'm on the opposite side, I only knew that one from Jasmine Masters and didn't know the McElroys ever said that or that people applied it to them.
@@Sparrowlicious-01 I've never watched the McElroys so I didn't know they said it either lol
I assumed it was "Southerner's worst nightmare"
Taking a look back at this video again 2 years later it just seems even weirder than it did at the time that this is video is billed as a "Rise and Fall" story. I genuinely think some of the funniest episodes of MBMBAM ever have come out in the last year. Their youtube channel has posted lots of really hilarious videos recently. I've been thinking that Travis, especially, has been on a roll comedy wise lately. I haven't been listening to TAZ but that's just because my podcast listening habits have changed not because I've heard it's been bad. They're family brand really seems to be thriving right now. I, personally, just fully ignore the online fandom and just enjoy their shows. I recommend it.
fungalore granted my wishes :’)
Yeah i appreciate this vid in general and in content but the title is clickbait unfortunately
TAZ vs Dracula is very worth it
Essentially : the McElroys are growing humans who make their living in the spotlight and some fans have a hard time divorcing their own feelings about how they're not actually part of the shiny family unit the McElroys have carefully cultivated.
I'm not sure how the same fan base that's all about "pobody's nerfect" loses their shit about how the brothers tried (and failed) to address the complaints of lack of diversity. You can admit they made an attempt and did a bad job without feeling personally attacked.
My thoughts as well. And I hate to pull this "card" but in some situations there's simply no option to "fix" things or "course correct" without making a significant portion of the fans mad. But yeah I especially like your comment about them being growing humans. Us fans seem to give ourselves a free pass on that but our idols have to be perfect always. What a blind spot to contend with!
☝🏽☝🏽☝🏽☝🏽☝🏽
Well said. They're regular guys. Justin and Griffin are savvy businessmen with regards to social media and branding. They aren't paragons.
I'm sorry, the Barbara Walters interview filter is just KILLING me, I cannot look at it without laughing. It is the most hilariously deranged non-sequitur to suddenly have thrown into this video and I love it.
I think a big thing to note about TAZ and roleplaying in general: People are really bad at roleplaying long term, imo. It’s a difficult headspace to maintain a separate persona and to keep track of everything your character has said and done over time and how those all should relate to a novel experience. Playing a character outside your experience is really difficult without flanderization of your character. A moment of bad improv can really impact your character unless you go back on it later. Improv necessitates the “yes and” but really never goes back for the “well, but”
Can relate. I’ve been playing the same character for 100+ episodes in my own podcast and he’s already gone through most of his character growth/development and it’s become pretty difficult to continue playing him without stepping into flanderization.
critical role established an unrealistic expectation for the majority of actual play podcasts. I think watching them, they are such an outlier when it comes to character immersion and roleplaying that expecting every other podcast to do the same is setting yourself up for failure. in some ways i was lucky to have my first actual play podcast be an old Yogscast segment. they werent always in character, and often never used voices but the storytelling was oddly just as strong.
@@quinnmarchese6313 I legitimately dislike Critical Role's insistence on stupid voices and unnecessary post-production. I'm here to listen to nerds roll dice, not a fr*ckin' radio teleplay.
The fact people seem to expect that now is extremely annoying.
naddpod is a great dnd podcast that i think toes that line really well. their first campaign ended at 100 eps and that felt right, we knew the characters really well and they’d gone through so much development but it was time to say goodbye. also, the dm does a really good job of integrating character backstories into the lore of the world so it doesn’t feel stale or railroaded!
@@raggamuffin394 Naddpod is great
Yknow when I first watched this video I was like “man thank god I don’t have any super deep parasocial feelings for the content creators I watch that’d be weird” and then the Gus Johnson thing happened and it felt like my whole world view was shattered. Like I felt really genuinely hurt and angry and betrayed and just so sad for Sabrina…so now I’m back to this video to remind myself why getting way too attached to content creators is bad actually
Wait there's a gus johnson thing??
@@user-qp1ow8qg3d Several years ago, his ex-girlfriend Sabrina was dying of an ectopic pregnancy and he... didn't treat her great during that. She made a video about it that you can watch if you want more details.
Some people have held out hope that he's changed and this was past behavior, but he mostly just ignored the controversy and tried to move on in a very tone-deaf way, and didn't treat her great fairly recently when she was recovering from surgery, so it seems like he hasn't changed much since those days.
@@fermiLiquidDrinker asbestie?
I feel like that's different because it was one thing when Gus Johnson a man who built his brand on sort of positive masculinity is revealed to have horrendously mistreated his girlfriend, basically revealing that he was the antithesis of what he probably presented himself to be vs when a public figure is just Less than perfect. With Gus it was more hurtful because you felt like he'd sold you a lie
I agree that it’s important to demand accountability from people for abusive behaviour. I don’t think this requires feeling the personal sense of betrayal that can go along with the type of parasocial relationships we all have with at least a few of our favourite creators. I think that’s what the commenter was highlighting.
You might choose to unsubscribe to Gus’s channel after learning about his behaviour. Some people might, after unsubscribing, not give it another thought. Others might, after unsubscribing, still find themselves thinking a lot about the whole situation. The parasocial part comes from the related emotions and feelings related to two people (Gus and Sabrina) that (almost all of) their audience don’t know personally but nevertheless feel some sort of personal connection with them.
As someone who listened to MBMBaM for years on my daily commute (and continues to do so) with very little connection to the fanbase this was a really... strange experience to watch. I didn't realise there was much of a downfall at all! It really strikes me how difficult it must be to be a creator with such a vocal fanbase.
That was my exact reaction. I don't listen to them religiously so I kinda sat there and said "Wait, there was a down fall?"
Same. I was surprised as well. And I literally listen to MBMBAM or their other podcasts nearly daily!
In all fairness there hasn't been a downfall, they're just slightly less popular than they were at their peak.
mte seeing this in my recommended videos lol. I never branched out from MBMBAM, kinda stopped listening when it started being less funny to me, still frequently go back and binge the first 200 something episodes... never once interacted with the fanbase. I feel for the guys, MBMBAM kinda hit the ground running and that was 11 years ago, and seems like they've been just constantly pushed to do better than their top game ever since, instead of fans just naturally losing interest and moving on.
i'm like actively in the fan base and i had absolutely no clue what she was talking about for over half of this
Something being labeled as the "Among us incident" is something i did NOT expect in this video, but is welcome nevertheless
My jaw fucking dropped at that whole section, I just kept yelling "SHUT UP" at the screen louder with every word he said. I can't possibly imagine how awful it must have felt to be in the moment for the other players on the stream. It looked hard to even just watch.
GET OUT OF MY HEAD! GET OUT OF MY HEAD!
@@NoraQRosa I had to skip it, it was too awful ;;
@@amocola2793 saaaaame
@@NoraQRosa when i first heard about the Incident i couldn’t even watch the video of it i just read a transcript in the comments. i turned the volume pretty much all the way down when it came on in this video too lol. i cannot imagine being one of the other people in that stream, or even being travis like i would’ve left the internet completely
something feels special about this dropping right as school ended for me. like an after school special or something.
I was *just* searching for something to hear while I play Animal Crossing, I get the feel
It’s a nice feeling seeing this in your sub box after a long day at work
Did you have a good... Graduation?
Coming back to this video is like returning home after a long journey. This video introduced me to the McElroys, and The Adventure Zone, which kickstarted my appreciation and love of TTRPGs. The fanart, the dubs, the campaigns, the handbooks, the dice, the literal red robe I have hanging in my office...it all started here. I became friends with my current partner through a Discord server listening party I hosted for TAZ Balance. It all started here.
Thank you, Sarah. It's so bizarre to think about, but you changed my life for the nerdier in just a couple hours. If this is the impact you have on people so early into your life, then you're truly going to be amazing.
Sorry for the corny joke. I had to.
Tbh a lot of their current ‘downfall’ reminds me of the ‘downfall’ for the Green brothers. They hit their peak and afterwards people with legit criticism/ people who actively disliked them/ people who had outgrown them and were now kind of embarrassed about it were super vocal for a while. And then that died down and they’re still around doing their thing. Which is what I expect will happen with the McElroys; any backlash/ drama will die down eventually and they’ll keep doing their thing, just probably less popular than they used to be.
Also was the horrible live show the Atlanta one?? I was there and it was a messsssss
I cant wait for the McElroy's equivalent of the Green Brothers' tiktok renaissance
the green brothers backlash still breaks my heart ngl, i really do still love them both even if i am less of a fan as i was back in like 2014 lmao ,, glad to know that this seems to be more an issue of awkwardness and dislike vs. something where the mcelroys are now, like, Evil or whatever
Side note, I’d love to see Sarah do a video about the ride, fall, and slight renaissance of the Green brothers. It was definitely a situation where some very legitimate criticism got marred with “lol eww cringe” critiques which often veered towards just overtly mocking John for symptoms of his mental illness. It’s nice to see them still doing their thing though.
who wants to remind me what happened at the Atlanta live show lol
@@bibliophilecb yeah i think that'd be super interesting, bc the criticisms weren't Baseless so much as they were overstated. tbh, i'm glad to see john green writing Anything but YA because he is a strong thinker and communicator but he is best known for his YA and for crash course, where his talents are (imo) a bit more lacking. very excited to read "the anthropocene reviewed"
Another point is that when you position yourself as making art/content as an "ally" to minorities or social causes, you often open yourself up to the expectation that your content needs to fulfil certain strict didactic goals rather than, you know, express a deeply felt emotion or idea.
Hell being a minority people expect everything you write needs to perfectly depict minorites.
Yeah, it seemed like Travis just did not have the chops to play/depict multiple groups of different genders and sexualities (especially with so many npcs) but after the taako incident there was too much brand pressure not to be inclusive.
At this point it feels safer to just not try and be an ally to anybody or any cause. Why bother risking all the baggage and shit-flinging that comes with even loosely engaging with those topics? At the end of the day you're not going to change people's minds and you'll just attract horrific things to yourself, and for what? To be able to pat yourself on the back that you were an ally people didn't hate for a microsecond of internet time? Allies all eventually get turned on, WITHOUT EXCEPTION (because the internet's expectation of allies is to be perfect and flawless which is obviously impossible), so what the fuck is the point?
@@PontschPauPau3451 To try and do what is right.
@@PontschPauPau3451 that's centering the wrong objective. It's not about what you get, it's about pursuing something more equitable.
The Pronoun thing in TAZ is so frustrating because its the easiest thing in the world to fix, particularly in a fantasy setting where you can invent a new cultural norm to explain away characters declaring their pronouns
Like in a friends' game, people generally introduced themselves by their name, and then a small epithet/honourific that gave the person meeting them both their pronouns and a small detail that they considered important about themselves
For example, "Kit von Harlequin, He Who Dances With the Dragon Amongst Mortals", Ser Elizaveta, She Who Guards in the Candlelight", etc
That's so cool!
At first I thought you meant they were specialized *terms* that accompany names, like Japanese -chan/-san/-kun but gendered. I feel like even a version of that could work pretty well. This is a cool idea, though.
That's clever! Borrowing that!
@@armleg stealing this idea for fantasy culture with weird genders
say, someone of that culture would be named Bob-se and se would be... sers(?) used pronoun. you could have Al sort of fun with them going around calling Billy from London Billy-he and stuff
This is cool, its like one step further from what I do in one of my games. Our party always introduces ourselves with our names and spells the names and always asks for the names and spelling of the people we meet. Our party is under the impression that this is a normal cultural thing in this land but the joke is that it's not and people generally think we're weird for this but are polite enough to just go along with it.
Every time I've been enjoying something on my own and then learn about the fandom, I happily go back to enjoying it on my own while ignoring the fandom.
Fandoms just get pulled inherently toward toxicity because the most toxic people always pull the hardest.
I make a fan comic for an old cartoon with a dwindling fandom and decades old head-canons that are treated as truth. I don't post anything but the comic on my tumblr, I don't answer asks, don't reblog, and I don't engage with other people. Got an ask in the beginning that was like "I love your version of 'female character in the show' she's such a lesbian." I hadn't made her sexuality clear yet. That's why I don't interact with fandom, they demand things of you as a creator and if you don't kowtow then they get upset or think you're being mean. No thanks. Fandoms for fans can be fun, but fandoms for creators can be like walking on eggshells.
@@appalachiabrauchfrau I don't think even from the perspective of a fan I've ever found that engaging with the fandom enhanced my experience with whatever it was I was watching or listening to. It's only ever been a negative. But that could also just be my personal biases.
Honestly I’m thankful for them, no one ever pronounced my last name correctly until they came along.
Tbf u brought that on ur self
U can go down to the court house and stop the cycle anytime you want
@@gemstone108 wrong order letters having ass name
@@captainsassy6966 this person brought their name that they're born with on themselves? And your response is too pay $500+ to fix it???
@@koidandi I'm obviously joking
Back to “Mic Lee Roy”
to anyone who's capital-w Worried they're gonna find out something they dont like in this video:
its mostly an overview about how the fandom of the mcelroys has shrunk significantly due to
- them setting themselves up to have a fandom turn on them due to the parasocial nature of alot of their content (not necessarily bad in itself)
- serious flaws in taz graduation (which, even as ppl who liked parts of grad, i agree its still bad) from both a "bad storytelling" perspective & a "harmful tropes" perspective
- other stuff some of them (mostly travis) have done on social media, which is kinda Yikes but not like "this person is actively evil" (travis being paternalistic on a livestream & performatively doing the "no homo but this man is attractive" on twitter (but then admitting he was doing it to get attention & apologizing for it & saying he'll change his behavior))
if you just listen to the mcelroys casually & arent someone who views them as The Best Thing or engages with The Fandom™, you'll probably come away feeling basically the same, just more aware of the negative aspects of stuff they've made. its levelheaded criticism. (also, maybe you will decide you dont want to give any attention to them. thats fine too. the point is its not an unambiguously awful jk rowling type situation)
i guess if you are extremely invested in the mcelroys being Good Good Boys who've Done Nothing Wrong you may dislike it or feel upset, but if thats the case, i would encourage you to rethink how you conceptualize media made by internet content creators who arent your friends.
Oh thank you for this, the only content from them I've consumed was TAZ Balance and some of their bits here and there, but Balance is still one of my favorite pieces of media so i was really concerned to see this video. I'm glad it's not a JK Rowling situation
@@theartofnina Same here
Thanks for the thoughtful breakdown!
This is so, so valuable. Two hours is a long time to wait to know if you’ve been giving your time and attention to someone who’s Fucking Evil or just flawed like everyone else. Thank you.
Thank you so much. I wanted to make sure they weren't secretly horrible people, but I was not ready to commit 2 hrs of my life to watching this video.