Good discussion gentlemen. Just a few (ok a lot) comments below. For what it’s worth The Song of Nine Heroes does mention Fizban. He’s “the ancient weaver of accidents.” Just as Tika is the “graceless girl” and Laurana is the “princess of seeds and saplings”. They all get bundled together in the “And the rest” paragraph of the poem. (Which is really odd, because Laurana is probably the closest this book has to a main character, so it’s really weird she is so marginalized in the opening poem.) And yeah, it makes no sense in-story why Kitiara would be in the poem. How would the dwarven bard even know she existed? 100% agree with Beckermin about Laurana not having any romantic feelings for Elistan. This is made very clear in her conversation with Tanis where she gets angry when Tanis suggests she has any romantic feelings for Elistan (and points out that her heart is not inconsistent like Tanis’s). "If you want to discuss relationships, what about you and Elistan? He may be a cleric of Paladine, but he's a man, a fact to which you can, no doubt, testify! All I hear from you," he mimicked her voice, "is 'Elistan is so wise,' 'Ask Elistan, he'll know what to do,' 'Listen to Elistan, Tanis-'" "How dare you accuse me of your own failings?" Laurana returned. -Dragons of Winter Night, Book I, Chapter 1 And while she does say that she loves Elistan, the way she describes it makes it clear her love for Elistan is a very different type of love than the romantic, passionate love she feels for Tanis. "I love Elistan. I reverence him. He is the wisest man I have known, and the gentlest. He is self-sacrificing- his entire life is wrapped up in serving others. But there is only one man I love, only one man I have ever loved-though now I am beginning to ask myself if perhaps I haven't made a mistake!” -Dragons of Winter Night, Book I, Chapter 1 Her feelings for Elistan are thus obviously platonic, and Tanis thinking she has any romantic feelings for Elistan is just him being a jealous dick. I disagree with Beckermin though about the idea that Tanis realizing he wants to be with Laurana was rushed. Even in the last book, it was obvious Tanis had strong feelings for Laurana. He was clearly very physically attracted to her (he calls her the most beautiful woman in the world), and even when he is breaking their engagement he still tells her that he loves her. "I do love you, Laurana. But, you see, I can't marry you, because I love her, too. My heart is divided, just like my blood." -Dragons of Autumn Twilight, Book II, Chapter 6 It seems like Tanis’ biggest issue with Laurana in the first book is that he thinks she is too naïve and immature to be with him (there are several instances in the book where he talks down to her as if she was a child), but even in that first book that starts to change, as Laurana starts showing signs of strength and maturity, and Tanis finds himself impressed with her. Tanis sighed. Already he regretted speaking harshly to her back in the Sla-Mori. He had to admit that she had handled herself remarkably well under terrifying circumstances. She had done what she was told to quickly and without question. Tanis supposed he would have to apologize, but first he needed to talk to Gilthanas. -Dragons of Autumn Twilight, Book II, Chapter 11 Tanis told himself he was glad Laurana was showing some signs of maturity at last. He steadfastly refused to admit that his soul stood breathless whenever he looked into her large, luminous eyes. -Dragons of Autumn Twilight, Book II Chapter 12 Tanis's eyes strayed to Laurana occasionally. She sat at a different table talking animatedly with Elistan. Tanis, thinking how lovely she looked tonight, realized how changed she was from the willful, lovesick girl who had followed him from Qualinesti. He told himself he liked the change in her. But he caught himself wondering just what she and Elistan found so interesting. -Dragons of Autumn Twilight, The Wedding Thus, he was already starting to shows romantic feelings for her in the last book, and as Laurana shows even more strength and maturity in this book (both with her work with the refugees and in being willing to stand up to Tanis when he is being a jealous dick to her) that makes Tanis even more drawn to her. (You’ll notice that Tanis shows longing for Laurana after their argument outside of Thorbardin. He admires strong women.) Tanis stood for a moment, staring after her, scratching the thick, reddish beard that no elf on Krynn could grow. Pondering Laurana's last statement, he thought, incongruously, of Kitiara. He conjured up pictures in his mind of Kit's cropped, curly black hair, her crooked smile, her fiery, impetuous temper, and her strong, sensual body- the body of a trained swordswoman, but he discovered to his amazement that now the picture dissolved, pierced by the calm, clear gaze of two slightly slanted, luminous, elven eyes. -Dragons of Winter Night, Book I, Chapter 1 So with Tanis realizing that Laurana is far stronger, compassionate and capable than he ever imagined, and with Tanis also realizing that he is coming dangerously close to pushing her away, it makes sense he would reappraise his feelings. Frankly, it would be unrealistic if Tanis spent a month around a woman as beautiful, kind-hearted, and strong as Laurana, who Tanis already has strong feelings for, and he didn’t realize he had been a damn fool in pushing her away.
As for the sleeping potion issue, I think you guys misread that scene. Feigning death was never Raistlin’s plan. Riverwind, Caramon, and he had already agreed the party needed to suicide (presumably to avoid torture). The feign death story was a lie Raistlin told to Laurana, because he knew that as an elf, she would never knowingly commit suicide, and thus they would have to trick her into taking the poison. "We cannot be taken alive," Raistlin whispered. Riverwind took a deep breath, "Well hold out as long as we can," he said, his voice shaking slightly, "but when we know we can last no longer-" He stopped, unable to continue, his hand on his knife, thinking of what he must do. "There will be no need for that," Raistlin said softly. "I have herbs. A tiny bit in a glass of wine. Very quick, painless." "Are you certain?" Riverwind asked. "Trust me," Raistlin replied. "I am skilled in the art. The art of herblore," he amended smoothly, seeing the Plainsmen shudder. "If I am alive," Riverwind said softly, "I will give her, then-the drink myself. If not-" "I understand. You may trust me," the mage repeated. "What about Laurana?" Caramon asked. "You know elves. She won't-" "Leave it to me," Raistlin repeated softly. The Plainsman stared at the mage, feeling horror creep over him. Raistlin stood before him coolly, his arms folded in the sleeves of his robe, his hood pulled up over his head. Riverwind looked at his dagger, considering the alternative. No, he couldn't do it. Not that way. -Dragons of Winter Night, Book I, Chapter 7 What I don't get about the scene is why are Raistlin, Caramon, and Riverwind so convinced they have to avoid capture? They were captured twice in the last book and managed to escape without being tortured, so I'm not sure why they think death is the only option here.
BWG...first and foremost, thank you for this comment. Love the passion. And in sight. I'm the new reader of the group and loves reading all of this. Ok I should have made the difference in the love laurana has for elistan. I didn't think it was a romantic relationship but I'm not 100% on the mating relationships of elves within the D & D universe( as there is a difference compared to other depictions) also it had only been a month so found it odd, her using the word love at all towards another person So soon. But I did see it as a relationship of sorts due to her normally choosing to go with Elistan. But I do see it's more a mentor kind of love. I also think she is using that term "love" to open tanis eyes towards her Little bit of the jealous. Ok I still don't think I understand the faint death scene and even with your explanation added(which I thank you). I keep thinking about what you said..they have been captured before...I've reread that part about 6 times and I'm missing something. Lol. And on the song of the nine. Huge Thank you cause we all missed that about fizban. We'll I know I did. I can't thank you enough. First person who has watched and left an amazing comment. Plan to reread som of this on the live to correct us. Thank you so much and happy new year
@@Evilscomics Always good to see new people getting into Dragonlance. And yeah I may not have explained the feign death situation clearly. Let me try and break it down in a little more detail. "'We cannot be taken alive," Raistlin whispered. Riverwind took a deep breath, "Well hold out as long as we can," he said, his voice shaking slightly, "but when we know we can last no longer-" He stopped, unable to continue, his hand on his knife, thinking of what he must do. So that's where we see both Raistlin and Riverwind agree that the party needs to suicide to avoid being capture. "There will be no need for that," Raistlin said softly. "I have herbs. A tiny bit in a glass of wine. Very quick, painless." "Are you certain?" Riverwind asked. "Trust me," Raistlin replied. "I am skilled in the art. The art of herblore," he amended smoothly, seeing the Plainsmen shudder. "If I am alive," Riverwind said softly, "I will give her, then-the drink myself. If not-" "I understand. You may trust me," the mage repeated. This is where we see Raistlin offers to give them all a poison that will give them a quick, painless death, and Riverwind agrees to that plan. (With him wanting to make sure that Goldmoon takes the poison as well.) "What about Laurana?" Caramon asked. "You know elves. She won't-" This is where Caramon makes the point that Laurana is never going to willingly drink poison. (Remember in the last book it was mentioned that the elves think that suicide is blasphemous.) "Leave it to me," Raistlin repeated softly. And this is where Raistlin volunteers to make sure Laurana takes the poison. He doesn't tell us how he's going to do it in this scene, but when we fast forward to his next conversation with Laurana we see his plan. Then he felt another hand grasp leis own. Looking up, he saw Laurana. She took the pouch from his frail fingers. Her own hand was stained with the dark green draconian blood. "What's this?" she asked. "Ingredients for a spell." The mage choked. "Pour it into the wine." Laurana nodded and poured in the mixture as instructed. It vanished instantly. "Don't drink it," the mage warned when the coughing spasm passed. Laurana looked at him. "What is it?" "A sleeping potion," Raistlin whispered, his eyes glittering. Laurana smiled wryly. "You don't think we're going to be able to get to sleep tonight?" "Not that kind;" Raistlin answered, staring at her intently. "This one feigns death. The heartbeat slows to almost nothing, the breathing nearly stops, the skin grows cold and pale, the limbs stiffen." Laurana's eyes opened wide. "Why-" she began. "To be used as a last resort. The enemy thinks you are dead, leaves you on the field- if you are lucky. If not-" "If not?" she prompted, her face pale. "Well, a few have been known to waken on their own funeral pyres," Raistlin said coolly. "I don't believe that is likely to happen to us, however." Breathing more easily, he sat down, ducking involuntarily as a spent arrow fluttered overhead and fell to the floor behind him. He saw Laurana's hand tremble then and realized she was not as calm as she was forcing herself to appear. "Are you intending that we take this?" she asked. "It will save us from being tortured by draconians." "How do you know that?" "Trust me," the mage said with a slight smile. Raistlin lies to Laurana about the poison telling her it is a potion to feign death. (Presumably his thinking is that while Laurana will never knowingly drink poison, she would be willing to drink something that she thought was a feign death sleeping potion if the situation was desperate enough.)
Good discussion gentlemen. Just a few (ok a lot) comments below.
For what it’s worth The Song of Nine Heroes does mention Fizban. He’s “the ancient weaver of accidents.” Just as Tika is the “graceless girl” and Laurana is the “princess of seeds and saplings”. They all get bundled together in the “And the rest” paragraph of the poem. (Which is really odd, because Laurana is probably the closest this book has to a main character, so it’s really weird she is so marginalized in the opening poem.)
And yeah, it makes no sense in-story why Kitiara would be in the poem. How would the dwarven bard even know she existed?
100% agree with Beckermin about Laurana not having any romantic feelings for Elistan. This is made very clear in her conversation with Tanis where she gets angry when Tanis suggests she has any romantic feelings for Elistan (and points out that her heart is not inconsistent like Tanis’s).
"If you want to discuss relationships, what about you and Elistan? He may be a cleric of Paladine, but he's a man, a fact to which you can, no doubt, testify! All I hear from you," he mimicked her voice, "is 'Elistan is so wise,' 'Ask Elistan, he'll know what to do,' 'Listen to Elistan, Tanis-'"
"How dare you accuse me of your own failings?" Laurana returned.
-Dragons of Winter Night, Book I, Chapter 1
And while she does say that she loves Elistan, the way she describes it makes it clear her love for Elistan is a very different type of love than the romantic, passionate love she feels for Tanis.
"I love Elistan. I reverence him. He is the wisest man I have known, and the gentlest. He is self-sacrificing- his entire life is wrapped up in serving others. But there is only one man I love, only one man I have ever loved-though now I am beginning to ask myself if perhaps I haven't made a mistake!”
-Dragons of Winter Night, Book I, Chapter 1
Her feelings for Elistan are thus obviously platonic, and Tanis thinking she has any romantic feelings for Elistan is just him being a jealous dick.
I disagree with Beckermin though about the idea that Tanis realizing he wants to be with Laurana was rushed.
Even in the last book, it was obvious Tanis had strong feelings for Laurana. He was clearly very physically attracted to her (he calls her the most beautiful woman in the world), and even when he is breaking their engagement he still tells her that he loves her.
"I do love you, Laurana. But, you see, I can't marry you, because I love her, too. My heart is divided, just like my blood."
-Dragons of Autumn Twilight, Book II, Chapter 6
It seems like Tanis’ biggest issue with Laurana in the first book is that he thinks she is too naïve and immature to be with him (there are several instances in the book where he talks down to her as if she was a child), but even in that first book that starts to change, as Laurana starts showing signs of strength and maturity, and Tanis finds himself impressed with her.
Tanis sighed. Already he regretted speaking harshly to her back in the Sla-Mori. He had to admit that she had handled herself remarkably well under terrifying circumstances. She had done what she was told to quickly and without question. Tanis supposed he would have to apologize, but first he needed to talk to Gilthanas.
-Dragons of Autumn Twilight, Book II, Chapter 11
Tanis told himself he was glad Laurana was showing some signs of maturity at last. He steadfastly refused to admit that his soul stood breathless whenever he looked into her large, luminous eyes.
-Dragons of Autumn Twilight, Book II Chapter 12
Tanis's eyes strayed to Laurana occasionally. She sat at a different table talking animatedly with Elistan. Tanis, thinking how lovely she looked tonight, realized how changed she was from the willful, lovesick girl who had followed him from Qualinesti. He told himself he liked the change in her. But he caught himself wondering just what she and Elistan found so interesting.
-Dragons of Autumn Twilight, The Wedding
Thus, he was already starting to shows romantic feelings for her in the last book, and as Laurana shows even more strength and maturity in this book (both with her work with the refugees and in being willing to stand up to Tanis when he is being a jealous dick to her) that makes Tanis even more drawn to her. (You’ll notice that Tanis shows longing for Laurana after their argument outside of Thorbardin. He admires strong women.)
Tanis stood for a moment, staring after her, scratching the thick, reddish beard that no elf on Krynn could grow. Pondering Laurana's last statement, he thought, incongruously, of Kitiara. He conjured up pictures in his mind of Kit's cropped, curly black hair, her crooked smile, her fiery, impetuous temper, and her strong, sensual body- the body of a trained swordswoman, but he discovered to his amazement that now the picture dissolved, pierced by the calm, clear gaze of two slightly slanted, luminous, elven eyes.
-Dragons of Winter Night, Book I, Chapter 1
So with Tanis realizing that Laurana is far stronger, compassionate and capable than he ever imagined, and with Tanis also realizing that he is coming dangerously close to pushing her away, it makes sense he would reappraise his feelings. Frankly, it would be unrealistic if Tanis spent a month around a woman as beautiful, kind-hearted, and strong as Laurana, who Tanis already has strong feelings for, and he didn’t realize he had been a damn fool in pushing her away.
As for the sleeping potion issue, I think you guys misread that scene. Feigning death was never Raistlin’s plan. Riverwind, Caramon, and he had already agreed the party needed to suicide (presumably to avoid torture). The feign death story was a lie Raistlin told to Laurana, because he knew that as an elf, she would never knowingly commit suicide, and thus they would have to trick her into taking the poison.
"We cannot be taken alive," Raistlin whispered.
Riverwind took a deep breath, "Well hold out as long as we can," he said, his voice shaking slightly, "but when we know we can last no longer-"
He stopped, unable to continue, his hand on his knife, thinking of what he must do.
"There will be no need for that," Raistlin said softly. "I have herbs. A tiny bit in a glass of wine. Very quick, painless."
"Are you certain?" Riverwind asked.
"Trust me," Raistlin replied. "I am skilled in the art. The art of herblore," he amended smoothly, seeing the Plainsmen shudder.
"If I am alive," Riverwind said softly, "I will give her, then-the drink myself. If not-"
"I understand. You may trust me," the mage repeated.
"What about Laurana?" Caramon asked. "You know elves. She won't-"
"Leave it to me," Raistlin repeated softly.
The Plainsman stared at the mage, feeling horror creep over him. Raistlin stood before him coolly, his arms folded in the sleeves of his robe, his hood pulled up over his head. Riverwind looked at his dagger, considering the alternative. No, he couldn't do it. Not that way.
-Dragons of Winter Night, Book I, Chapter 7
What I don't get about the scene is why are Raistlin, Caramon, and Riverwind so convinced they have to avoid capture? They were captured twice in the last book and managed to escape without being tortured, so I'm not sure why they think death is the only option here.
BWG...first and foremost, thank you for this comment. Love the passion. And in sight. I'm the new reader of the group and loves reading all of this.
Ok I should have made the difference in the love laurana has for elistan. I didn't think it was a romantic relationship but I'm not 100% on the mating relationships of elves within the D & D universe( as there is a difference compared to other depictions) also it had only been a month so found it odd, her using the word love at all towards another person So soon. But I did see it as a relationship of sorts due to her normally choosing to go with Elistan.
But I do see it's more a mentor kind of love. I also think she is using that term "love" to open tanis eyes towards her
Little bit of the jealous.
Ok I still don't think I understand the faint death scene and even with your explanation added(which I thank you). I keep thinking about what you said..they have been captured before...I've reread that part about 6 times and I'm missing something. Lol.
And on the song of the nine. Huge Thank you cause we all missed that about fizban. We'll I know I did.
I can't thank you enough. First person who has watched and left an amazing comment. Plan to reread som of this on the live to correct us. Thank you so much and happy new year
@@Evilscomics Always good to see new people getting into Dragonlance.
And yeah I may not have explained the feign death situation clearly. Let me try and break it down in a little more detail.
"'We cannot be taken alive," Raistlin whispered.
Riverwind took a deep breath, "Well hold out as long as we can," he said, his voice shaking slightly, "but when we know we can last no longer-"
He stopped, unable to continue, his hand on his knife, thinking of what he must do.
So that's where we see both Raistlin and Riverwind agree that the party needs to suicide to avoid being capture.
"There will be no need for that," Raistlin said softly. "I have herbs. A tiny bit in a glass of wine. Very quick, painless."
"Are you certain?" Riverwind asked.
"Trust me," Raistlin replied. "I am skilled in the art. The art of herblore," he amended smoothly, seeing the Plainsmen shudder.
"If I am alive," Riverwind said softly, "I will give her, then-the drink myself. If not-"
"I understand. You may trust me," the mage repeated.
This is where we see Raistlin offers to give them all a poison that will give them a quick, painless death, and Riverwind agrees to that plan. (With him wanting to make sure that Goldmoon takes the poison as well.)
"What about Laurana?" Caramon asked. "You know elves. She won't-"
This is where Caramon makes the point that Laurana is never going to willingly drink poison. (Remember in the last book it was mentioned that the elves think that suicide is blasphemous.)
"Leave it to me," Raistlin repeated softly.
And this is where Raistlin volunteers to make sure Laurana takes the poison. He doesn't tell us how he's going to do it in this scene, but when we fast forward to his next conversation with Laurana we see his plan.
Then he felt another hand grasp leis own. Looking up, he saw Laurana. She took the pouch from his frail fingers. Her own hand was stained with the dark green draconian blood.
"What's this?" she asked.
"Ingredients for a spell." The mage choked. "Pour it into the wine." Laurana nodded and poured in the mixture as instructed. It vanished instantly.
"Don't drink it," the mage warned when the coughing spasm passed. Laurana looked at him. "What is it?"
"A sleeping potion," Raistlin whispered, his eyes glittering.
Laurana smiled wryly. "You don't think we're going to be able to get to sleep tonight?"
"Not that kind;" Raistlin answered, staring at her intently. "This one feigns death. The heartbeat slows to almost nothing, the breathing nearly stops, the skin grows cold and pale, the limbs stiffen."
Laurana's eyes opened wide. "Why-" she began.
"To be used as a last resort. The enemy thinks you are dead, leaves you on the field- if you are lucky. If not-"
"If not?" she prompted, her face pale.
"Well, a few have been known to waken on their own funeral pyres," Raistlin said coolly. "I don't believe that is likely to happen to us, however."
Breathing more easily, he sat down, ducking involuntarily as a spent arrow fluttered overhead and fell to the floor behind him. He saw Laurana's hand tremble then and realized she was not as calm as she was forcing herself to appear.
"Are you intending that we take this?" she asked.
"It will save us from being tortured by draconians."
"How do you know that?"
"Trust me," the mage said with a slight smile.
Raistlin lies to Laurana about the poison telling her it is a potion to feign death. (Presumably his thinking is that while Laurana will never knowingly drink poison, she would be willing to drink something that she thought was a feign death sleeping potion if the situation was desperate enough.)