Woke Church was the first book I read about race and the church after returning to the US after years abroad. At the time, I didn't know what 'Woke' meant, I didn't know what CRT was, etc. I wanted to like it. I used to listen to Cross Movement in the early 2000's, and implicitly trusted Mason. From a purely biblical perspective, I found it to be full of unbiblical obligations (i.e. legalism), a doctrine of justification that seemed to want to split the baby with Rome, and a wink at egalitarianism. While I found it helpful to read about personal experiences, it doesn't discount the - at best - confusion of the gospel in the book - and at worst - false teaching. I read Shenvi's short review and still have no idea why Duncan would put a forward in a heavily legalistic book that confuses the gospel. Honestly, I think he can say a book is useful while being full of false teaching. But that's not what he said. I also don't understand why our leaders can't just say, "I'm sorry, I was wrong." Shai Linne's book is great, because it's biblical in its prescriptions. Woke Church is a dangerous mess.
God does not accept the worship of those who neglect establishing justice for the fatherless (see Amos 5 and Isaiah for example). Recently Ligon Duncan publicly opposed abolitionists for seeking to do exactly that.
There are ways to achieve the same goals that do not involve the same methods - you need to learn that. Your guys movement is a very heavy well placed hammer but your attitude tells me you don’t understand Romans 13-15 and how even in biblical times there was nuance on how to achieve the same results without, as you just said, writing someone out of the family of God.
You must have run out of time before you could ask him why he misquoted Jesus and why he pitted Jesus and John the Baptist against each other. I'm sure you'll address it next time.
Amazing interview! I always look forward to these. I also must say, I'm very encouraged, brothers, Sean, and Ligon, by your grace in conversation towards others of different convictions or thoughts. The nuance and grace gives me hope in a time when the reformed world can seem so polarizing. I'm encouraged by your faithfulness, brothers. Keep on!
I read Shenvi's review just now. While I'm glad that Mason's book confronts certain practices (like imposing cultural preferences on other races, being apathetic to improvements, etc), I am uncomfortable with its comfort in using culturally loaded terms like "systemic racism." I don't deny recurrent, stubborn racist practices exist. Look at the anti-Dali discrimination with many Indians. Look at the antisemitic conspiracies in YT comments. Look at the anti-Asian hate during the COVID years. But these idols must be killed and repented of. Not just revised and redressed. The difficulty with terms like "systemic ___," "anti-racism," and most importantly, "woke," is that they now carry a heavily Leftist understanding of power and justice. When the culture worships victimhood and autonomy, we must call these idols what they are: Baals. And once those Baals have been confronted with proper weight, and the land cleared of the heathen altars, then we can discuss the redeeming of those tainted terms for future purposes. But at this cultural moment, it seems too haphazard to simply join the two umbrellas of Woke and Church. Coming up with "Christian intersectionality" and "Christian wokeness" show our skewed understanding of the sin of leftism, which now often (if not always) includes queer rights and transgender rights. Wokist ideology (as our culture practices it) and leftism is the sin of envy and desire for justice and utopia defined independently from God. Also, what makes Mason's call "urgent" as the book's sub-title suggests? The call to repent from all sin has always been an urgent call, for the kingdom of God is at hand. It is fine to point out specific sins of antiblackness and antiwhiteness. (In fact, I loved the Venn diagram for the most part.) But wokeness is a much broader term now. I quote this verse as a reminder for all of us, including myself: "You shall not show partiality. . ." (Deut. 1:17).
@jesusrocks256 "Do you always write essays in bullet point?" - What is the motive behind this comment, brother? I want to read it charitably, but it seems difficult. If your intent was to alienate, why? What are you doing, brother? Please correct me if I am missing something edifying from this comment. This is all very strange. I thought I knew what this channel was about, but maybe I was wrong.
If Ligon believed in the Bible even a little bit, he would not be such a strong supporter of Woke Church and Critical Racist Theory. He destroyed any good he had ever done.
Do you really think that Ligon Duncan doesn't believe the Bible? That's a severe accusation to make against a man who has given his entire life to ministering God's Word.
Woke Church was the first book I read about race and the church after returning to the US after years abroad. At the time, I didn't know what 'Woke' meant, I didn't know what CRT was, etc. I wanted to like it. I used to listen to Cross Movement in the early 2000's, and implicitly trusted Mason.
From a purely biblical perspective, I found it to be full of unbiblical obligations (i.e. legalism), a doctrine of justification that seemed to want to split the baby with Rome, and a wink at egalitarianism.
While I found it helpful to read about personal experiences, it doesn't discount the - at best - confusion of the gospel in the book - and at worst - false teaching.
I read Shenvi's short review and still have no idea why Duncan would put a forward in a heavily legalistic book that confuses the gospel. Honestly, I think he can say a book is useful while being full of false teaching. But that's not what he said. I also don't understand why our leaders can't just say, "I'm sorry, I was wrong."
Shai Linne's book is great, because it's biblical in its prescriptions. Woke Church is a dangerous mess.
God does not accept the worship of those who neglect establishing justice for the fatherless (see Amos 5 and Isaiah for example). Recently Ligon Duncan publicly opposed abolitionists for seeking to do exactly that.
There are ways to achieve the same goals that do not involve the same methods - you need to learn that. Your guys movement is a very heavy well placed hammer but your attitude tells me you don’t understand Romans 13-15 and how even in biblical times there was nuance on how to achieve the same results without, as you just said, writing someone out of the family of God.
You must have run out of time before you could ask him why he misquoted Jesus and why he pitted Jesus and John the Baptist against each other. I'm sure you'll address it next time.
Amazing interview! I always look forward to these.
I also must say, I'm very encouraged, brothers, Sean, and Ligon, by your grace in conversation towards others of different convictions or thoughts. The nuance and grace gives me hope in a time when the reformed world can seem so polarizing. I'm encouraged by your faithfulness, brothers. Keep on!
At 1:17:30 who is Duncan talking about? If there are heretics in the church shouldn't he warn the church about them by name?
I read Shenvi's review just now.
While I'm glad that Mason's book confronts certain practices (like imposing cultural preferences on other races, being apathetic to improvements, etc),
I am uncomfortable with its comfort in using culturally loaded terms like "systemic racism."
I don't deny recurrent, stubborn racist practices exist.
Look at the anti-Dali discrimination with many Indians.
Look at the antisemitic conspiracies in YT comments.
Look at the anti-Asian hate during the COVID years.
But these idols must be killed and repented of.
Not just revised and redressed.
The difficulty with terms like "systemic ___," "anti-racism," and most importantly, "woke," is that they now carry a heavily Leftist understanding of power and justice.
When the culture worships victimhood and autonomy, we must call these idols what they are: Baals.
And once those Baals have been confronted with proper weight, and the land cleared of the heathen altars, then we can discuss the redeeming of those tainted terms for future purposes.
But at this cultural moment, it seems too haphazard to simply join the two umbrellas of Woke and Church.
Coming up with "Christian intersectionality" and "Christian wokeness" show our skewed understanding of the sin of leftism, which now often (if not always) includes queer rights and transgender rights.
Wokist ideology (as our culture practices it) and leftism is the sin of envy and desire for justice and utopia defined independently from God.
Also, what makes Mason's call "urgent" as the book's sub-title suggests?
The call to repent from all sin has always been an urgent call, for the kingdom of God is at hand.
It is fine to point out specific sins of antiblackness and antiwhiteness.
(In fact, I loved the Venn diagram for the most part.)
But wokeness is a much broader term now.
I quote this verse as a reminder for all of us, including myself:
"You shall not show partiality. . ." (Deut. 1:17).
Do you always write essays in bullet point?
@jesusrocks256
"Do you always write essays in bullet point?" - What is the motive behind this comment, brother?
I want to read it charitably, but it seems difficult.
If your intent was to alienate, why? What are you doing, brother?
Please correct me if I am missing something edifying from this comment.
This is all very strange. I thought I knew what this channel was about, but maybe I was wrong.
If Ligon believed in the Bible even a little bit, he would not be such a strong supporter of Woke Church and Critical Racist Theory.
He destroyed any good he had ever done.
Do you really think that Ligon Duncan doesn't believe the Bible? That's a severe accusation to make against a man who has given his entire life to ministering God's Word.
@@jesusrocks256 Of course I believe it. How can Ligon believe in Jesus and in making the church woke and black nationalist?
I'm only 2/3 through. Does hus support for these things show up here in this conversation or elsewhere.?
Fantastic interview!
Thanks, friend.