SMALL CORRECTION - Avatar should have used 'Sweep' against Uthar, which ups his total damage including shooting to 4.6 (92%). Uthar still works out at the best per point (243% win) despite this though!
Hi Auspex. As per GW's rules commentary the strikes might be better, because first Uthar sets the damage to 1, then the +2 comes in after as it is a modifer, so strikes are damage 3! (ref rules commentary under 'modifiers/applying modifiers - damage gets set to X value of 1, then modifiers are added)
@@Birri919 as it is an addition it counts as a damage modifier and also is the case for half damage. So if a 6 is rolled into half damage it goes down to 3, then back up to 2. Its pretty clear in tbeir commentary
@@jamesread4616the designer commentary is talking about rules that modify the base damage. Things that say in words: "add 1 to the damage of all weapons" not the formula for determining the base damage itself. You determine the base damage for a weapon first by rolling and adding together any numbers listed in the damage section of the weapon and then after you are done with that, you follow the steps listed in the modifiers sections for any additional rules that apply changes to it.
for someone called the duelist and the most fearsome opponent in 1on1 combat among the primarchs, the lion sure gets his ass handed to him by almost anything in his size/points category
Auspex left out the “Named And Unhelmeted Ultramarines Primaris Lieutenant™️” vs Avatar of Khaine, though to be fair that’s an extremely one-sided slaughter.
I swear the last time you did one of these the Avatar was getting slapped around like an unruly child. Khaine’s been busy getting swole since then it seems!
Very Happy that the Avatar is such a slegehammer now! However GW just murdered the swarmlord in 10th... just a limp, squishy overpriced noodle now... very lame
Khaine heard that character strength was going to be reduced in 10th edition and throttled the GW writer until he was allowed to keep his 9th edition profiles 😂
@@galling2052 lol I've yet to play them. Got two boxes and already had a 6K+ army list. My friend picked up my codex when it came out but hasn't dropped it. Been trying GSX in the meantime. Please tell me Genestealers are good!
the avatar should definitely use his sweep melee profile against uthar. then it would be 3.3 wounds without the hit and wound reroll instead of 2.5 with strike profile
Good spot, I think I'd basically forgotten he had it by that point. Looks like it's 3.9W after those re-rolls, so 4.6W including the shooting. Will post a pinned correction above. Doesn't seem to change Uthar's status as 'best per point' though!
Given you included the Ctan, it would have been nice if you included either the Norn Emissary or Assimilator into this. Maybe next video you could do Emmisary vs everyone else given their purpose is to single out and kill characters in the lore?
Damn thats already pretty impressive - Also considering it was just the Avatar himself - no Strands of fate for triple exploding ranged hits, and no Psychic Buffs from Farseers (Reroll hits, and -1 to wound) This is how I usually build around the Avatar in my Army.
Petition to use colonel straken for these 1 on 1 fights instead of leontus. We all know the lord solar is gonna lose pretty much any 1 on 1 fight He's in but straken actually has a chance and is the closest thing to a combat beast the guard have
@Auspex Tactics Why always pick Be'lakor for daemons? There are better combat characters like Shalaxi or Bloodthirster/Skarbrand if you want to keep it more in the same points range. But those are actually dedicated melee combat monsters Be'lakor is more of a jack-of-all-trades type of character.
The swarmlord comparison changes from 10 wounds on the nid to 8 wounds when the swarmlord model appears on screen. A few other spots where a 'slide update' causes other information to change (like at the beginning when listing non-leader named big hitters).
I haven't played 40k in a good number of years, but I remember absolutely terrifying my friends with The Nightbringer. He's an absolute unit still which is nice to see.
The maths ends up with some great results - Silent King being the absolute tankiest boy Morvenn Vahl dealing more damage than Primarchs and Greater Daemons Ghaz being truly bodied
i remember an Arena of Death that White Dwarf did for WFB back in 5th(?) edition, with all the most expensive special characters from each army book, plus a Bloodthirster, since they needed a round 16 combatants. IIRC, the final fight was the Bloodthirster vs Archon, and the Bloodthirster just ruined him through raw number of attacks, and that kinda reminds me of this series - the Avatar is able to take down most opponents through raw power rather than special rules or psychic powers. And I think that AoD was the origin of the saying "dice for the dice throne of Khorne", from the victory pic they had in WD.
It should be mentioned that monsters and vehicles can shoot pistol weapons with all other weaponry so our dear Morty should’ve shot The Lantern as well
Had a thought for the future of these videos, or as a fun side video. During the Battle of Iyanden, the Avatar of Khaine challenged the Hive Tyrant leading Hive Fleet Kraken (which may have been the Swarmlord but isn't confirmed) to single combat. Instead of responding to the challenge, the Tyrant famously summoned a dozen Carnifexes to dogpile the Avatar. I want to see the breakdown of the Avatar fighting a dozen Carnifexes.
Anyway if you set him up well, it is an unstoppable force. Say you manage to Fortune him, anything 11 str or lower will only wound on 6s. Also SoF, for shooting the wailing doom is brutal, a 6 sof dice is between 2-4 melta to the face, and a single failed invul save on almost any enemy, means you can use a 6 sof on the damage roll for auto 8 dmg, which will kill most characters.
@@MalvadoManso Lol, that's fine. The alternative obviously is fishing for that 6 to hit 1st, and if you get lucky you've got a 6 on a damage roll. If you don't get lucky, use detachment reroll and get that fate dice on that hit roll.
Feels bad seeing the Lion doclose to nothing. He is a severely overcosted bully unit. He slaps anything weaker than him into dust, but as soon as you put him againts anything that has a decent invuln or damage cut/reduction he just falls apart. I really want to bring him, but for 90 pts more i get a full DW Knights brick that can do anything the lion does but better. And even when compared to other "big characters" like G-man or Morty, his support abilities are mediocre at best, and the dev wounds changes just put the nail in his coffin, anything that does a decent dumber of dev wounds can just oneshot him off the table.
@@DennisW91 I was thinking that when I watched the video. A squad of warsuits with MV would match him in point cost. His half damage taken is still brutal though
ye but also you have 6 Shoot Multimelter so on 3s 5-6 Hit with Rerolls and about 3 should Wound. If he has a Mirical Dice what he should have only 1 Mulit deals D so about 4-5 D (you will use your Mirical Dice for a 5 or a 4) and with Melta Keyword. Than you have the Rest of Shooting lets keep it simple the Avatar should get 1-2 more D. Than Meele you use Tankshock so 14 Dice(1 Suit has the Mace) so its should be 6 MW. So at this point the Avatar has 3-1 HP Lef and still all the Meele comes. So ye on Average and for a CP you kill the Avatar with this Troop. @@theblackantonio
Can you need shalaxi helbane to the rooster this time around. With +5 inv+6fnp, - 1 to hit, rerolls on hits, wounds, damage and soild psyhic and melee attack it's would act as a good benchmark since shb is top tier anti character
I'm just loving the fact that the Aeldari and particularly the Avatar of Khaine are getting some proper respect on the tabletop. Now we just need to get that to translate over to the lore 🥲
Always fun to see these brawls! I do think though that while fighting Uthar it may have made more sense for the Avatar to attack with the sweep instead of the Strike. If both attacks deal 1 damage, doubling your attacks while having basically a -1 to wound seems totally worth it. Both have enough AP to use his invuln as well. I may have missed something though with all the behind the scenes calculations!
No you're totally right there, just posted a pinned correction above. It's definitely the right move, but Uthar still wins per point by a big margin :)
I feel like, in this edition, any "Leader" characters should have gotten 1 box of their led unit to join them. Especially for like, Ghaz and Abbadon who both had their toughness tanked as well as losing their damage caps.
Brilliant analysis. This is why my guard list brings 22 lascannons in a 2000 point list. Though i don't even know if that is enough to take down the Avatar. 🤣
Depends on if your opponent can get off the -1 to wound, otherwise they'll have to rely on -1 to hit, which means at the end you'll be looking at about 2.75 failed saves for Khaine, a favourable average is like 9 wounds from that.
@@UrbanmechAce Assuming you are playing on a bowling ball, assuming the Avatar is _somehow_ within half range of all of them, _assuming_ you have Take Aim! for all of the squads, 180 lasguns is indeed enough - 360 shots, 60 autowounds and 180 hits resulting in 30 more wounds, 90 total wounds saved on a 2+, 15 wounds inflicted - just barely enough. That's a lot of assumptions - a more realistic count is managing to have maybe 40 lasguns in that situation, which is 80 shots, 13 autowounds and 40 hits resulting in 7 more wounds; 20 wounds total, saved on a 2+, 3-4 wounds. Then the Avatar charges and mulches those squads.
I would have been interested to see which of the challengers could kill the Avatar with perfect offensive luck (ie. all 6s to hit all 6s to wound Max damage rolls and the Avatar fails all saves) and who had no chance whatsoever. Also seems the points value of the challengers varies from the data-sheet to the per point comparison sometimes
Any character which has at least 14 attacks wins. And with perfect luck, that'll also trigger the 'on crit' abilities like Sustained Hits, right? I dunno that much about the latest edition, but... Well, the big question is 'does the halving round up, or down'. Trajann needs to use the '12 attacks' ability, unless you round up. Leontus can only do 10 wounds. Draigo wins if you round up, otherwise is stuck at 11. Or 13? Drazhar can only get 7-10 wounds. Uthar does 8 wounds. Farsight does 10-12 wounds.
Back in the day in 3rd and 4th edition, I’d allow my Thousand Sons to be swarmed. All of my sorcerers had the Gift of Change spell. It was a two inch shooting spell that could be used even when locked in close combat and could pick your target. If you roll a d6 equal to or above the target’s toughness, w/ 6 always being successful, your opponents model was removed from the table and replaced with a chaos spawn that joins your squad! No saves at all. I took out so many big bads with that spell. Demon Princes, Old One Eye, the Nightbringer, etc.
I feel like comparing the Avatar to the big centrepiece models of different armies but only comparing it to the Yncarne and not a Wraithknight is a bit odd. Would be kinda interesting to see how it maths out. -1 isn’t nearly as defensive as halving the damage but the Heavy Wraithcannon is still massive shooting, and the Ghostglaive hits pretty hard as well
Hello, I've been loving Death Guard this edition. The Aura from Mortarion also affects his characteristics, meaning his damage couldn't be halved by Khaine. I believe damage is a characteristic that cannot be affected as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, please. Lord of the Death Guard (Aura): While a friendly DEATH GUARD unit is within 6" of this model, that unit can ignore any or all modifiers to its characteristics and to any roll or test made for it (excluding modifiers to saving throws). Mortarion is awfully annoying in that regard. Makes many things feel bad about it.
Yeah no 😂 like auspex said at the end, he doesn’t really buff anything. A LOT of the models here can give out enormous buffs and could get 1-2 turns of shooting before engaging.
I do love one omitted fact here, that both the Silent King and the Nightbringer will usually not be just healing 1 d3. Most necron players will be bringing a reanimator. Now little known fact monsters and vehicles and solo infantry in necron armies have an oppurtunity to heal 3 d3 per their turn. If set up right you can heal 1d3 from general reanimation protocols, 1 d3 from the reanimator, 1 d3 from a technomancer. Very annoying set up.
And this is another reason why the Avatar is going to get nerfed AGAIN, as GW struggles to knock the Eldar our of 1st place! 😊 Space Elves just can't be allowed to keep nice things! In actual seriousness, though, I really liked this list. I am one of those people who want the Eldar to stay top, and that without owning an army, playing it, or having any vested interest in keeping them from being dethroned, but the real reason, for me, is that, in the past, the Avatar was THE chump unit. It was powerful enough to go up against almost anything, but it's "loss" was never damning to the faction, like a named leader would be, so every model with a backstory could safely prove their mettle by 1v1-ing this thing, and all it cost the Eldar was one Young King. I remember seeing various things, over the decades, just whip the Avatar's ass, so seeing it properly triumph here, in many cases, was refreshing, even if it might just fuel the debate that the Eldar Ned more nerfs, because it's not right for the Space Marines, or some other much more purchased faction, to sit under the Eldar, in tournament performance. On a totally petty point, is the Lird Solar NOT a High Lord? I'll totally accept that I sometimes fail on my lore, and interpreting it, but I believed that Lord Solar Leontus was also a High Lord; same as Morvenn Vahl, and Valdor, raising the HL count on the list to three?
Would have liked to have seen the norn emmisary considering how poor the swarmlord be doing these days. Got the feeling that between designating the avatar as the target and/or being on his objective might make him an issue for the space elves.
I love your „Duell“ vids. Awesome as ever! Just notierst a small error. Vs Abbadon, you showed the right points with his rules (310) but later, when calculating the per-point-result you use and show the old 350 😉
I love these... Would be interested in seeing some other style videos like units that can kill the most durable units in one go. So units that can kill things like trancendant C'Tan with enhancement, aberrants, and deathwing knights. Love the videos
Avatar always gets undercosted by a lot. Last edition it was 100pts less than a melee knight, and could easily best it in close combat. GW are so bad at Eldar rules writing. Got some crack smoking Eldar fanboy maniac just churning out the OP.
You're forgetting one key factor. The Avatar will always roll all the 5s and 6s against me and when I run it I'll get all 1-2's, so I actually don't win. :)
The Nightbringer almost beating the Avatar 1v1 and winning on per points basis is funny cause in lore it was Khaine one defeated him 1v1 during the war in heaven.
Could always use a knight tyrant for Chaos knights, would be interesting to have a 2+ save and T13 knight in the running. Maybe for GSC the patriarch, its got more of a chance to deal damage than lord solar. Harlequinn could work out well for the Solitairs perhaps.
And there is Master of Executions with berzerker glaive just for 105pt that on average one shots avatar assuming he rolled 5-6 on his enhancement. You can also give him +1 to wound if desired. Also managed to one shot Astreus with him, that was funny lol.
ghaz feels like he suffers for being a leader model, he's just not able to duel well this edition. i usually just bring a gorknaught in reserves if there's a want for a melee menace, bundle some meganobz and a mekboy in there and have fun.
Surprised how close it is between Vahl and the avatar considering she can grenade and tank shock(assuming she got the charge). That's maybe another 5-6 MWs. Vehicle and grenade keyword on paragons and vahl is pretty scarry.
Avatar does not half damage against Mortarion, as his "Lord of the Death Guard" ability not only negates modifiers to model characteristics (toughness, save, movement, etc.) but also weapon and attack characteristics - everything that falls under the purview of "UNIT characteristics." The same can be said about the sister's stratagem, "Light of the Emperor." These are the only two instances of effects that also include attack and weapon characteristics. As a PSA, I am aware that one supermajor ruled that they *didn't* work that way. That's a tournament though.
Yeah I just assumed he was using the Warhammer World Champ FAQ from GW on that. The Silent King can activate the samr buff and it would make a difference I'm sure but I suspect more and more tournaments may start following that GW FAQ even though at the moment its only strictly the case for that one tournament.
I don't really like saying that both count as charging when dealing with Always Strike First units. Even if they are charged, they should hit first by being the defender, yes? Not that it helps the Lion here. Poor green cat man. The Avatar and the Nightbringer being so close now makes sense, given both are literally pieces of what they once were. Nice to see the Avatar being useful, despite being kinda out of a different playstyle than the rest of the Eldar.
When fighting with Uthar, it's better for Avatar to make sweep attack, he then deals 4W (92% damage). But still victory per point goes to Uthar (about 240%)
SMALL CORRECTION - Avatar should have used 'Sweep' against Uthar, which ups his total damage including shooting to 4.6 (92%).
Uthar still works out at the best per point (243% win) despite this though!
Hi Auspex. As per GW's rules commentary the strikes might be better, because first Uthar sets the damage to 1, then the +2 comes in after as it is a modifer, so strikes are damage 3! (ref rules commentary under 'modifiers/applying modifiers - damage gets set to X value of 1, then modifiers are added)
What would be the numbers on a Gravis captain with artificer armor?
@@jamesread4616 The +2 in the Avatar's weapon is part of the base characteristic, not a modifier
@@Birri919 as it is an addition it counts as a damage modifier and also is the case for half damage. So if a 6 is rolled into half damage it goes down to 3, then back up to 2. Its pretty clear in tbeir commentary
@@jamesread4616the designer commentary is talking about rules that modify the base damage. Things that say in words: "add 1 to the damage of all weapons" not the formula for determining the base damage itself.
You determine the base damage for a weapon first by rolling and adding together any numbers listed in the damage section of the weapon and then after you are done with that, you follow the steps listed in the modifiers sections for any additional rules that apply changes to it.
for someone called the duelist and the most fearsome opponent in 1on1 combat among the primarchs, the lion sure gets his ass handed to him by almost anything in his size/points category
I think they are saving the combat monster for when they bring back Corax.
Unfortunately the tabletop side of things rarely reflects the lore...
to be fair if this was lore accurate, Draigo would have made 100% Damage just by staring at the avatar.
The 40k rulebook is a homework assignment that was completed the morning of.
because there is no plotarmour on the tabletop
I love how Angron just COMES BACK for round 2 because he's too angry to even stay dead.
Like Darth Maul before him.
"Literally too angry to die"? :D
Auspex left out the “Named And Unhelmeted Ultramarines Primaris Lieutenant™️” vs Avatar of Khaine, though to be fair that’s an extremely one-sided slaughter.
No duh dude, AoK stands NO chance.
@@concretemix Precisely
Funnily the AoK will not be "A ok."
@@kirbking8074 that was a fantastic joke
I swear the last time you did one of these the Avatar was getting slapped around like an unruly child. Khaine’s been busy getting swole since then it seems!
Very Happy that the Avatar is such a slegehammer now!
However GW just murdered the swarmlord in 10th... just a limp, squishy overpriced noodle now... very lame
Khaine heard that character strength was going to be reduced in 10th edition and throttled the GW writer until he was allowed to keep his 9th edition profiles 😂
@@galling2052they had to sell the new models
@@captnwinkle not that they are any better really. The levi box + the xmax box for example is the perfect recipy for a dieria nid list
@@galling2052 lol I've yet to play them. Got two boxes and already had a 6K+ army list. My friend picked up my codex when it came out but hasn't dropped it. Been trying GSX in the meantime.
Please tell me Genestealers are good!
the avatar should definitely use his sweep melee profile against uthar. then it would be 3.3 wounds without the hit and wound reroll instead of 2.5 with strike profile
Good spot, I think I'd basically forgotten he had it by that point. Looks like it's 3.9W after those re-rolls, so 4.6W including the shooting. Will post a pinned correction above. Doesn't seem to change Uthar's status as 'best per point' though!
Man, Khaine’s been going to the gym since the last video like this. Apparently he took the “X character beats the Avatar in a duel” meme personally.
Given you included the Ctan, it would have been nice if you included either the Norn Emissary or Assimilator into this. Maybe next video you could do Emmisary vs everyone else given their purpose is to single out and kill characters in the lore?
Yeah. The Assimilator in particular seems designed to be the Nid answer to this kind of duel.
Damn thats already pretty impressive -
Also considering it was just the Avatar himself - no Strands of fate for triple exploding ranged hits, and no Psychic Buffs from Farseers (Reroll hits, and -1 to wound)
This is how I usually build around the Avatar in my Army.
Petition to use colonel straken for these 1 on 1 fights instead of leontus. We all know the lord solar is gonna lose pretty much any 1 on 1 fight He's in but straken actually has a chance and is the closest thing to a combat beast the guard have
Sly Marbo could do it. Sly Marbo can kill anything
@@lt.danhooper1635 Sly Marbo used to be an Avatar of Khaine, but Khaine felt insecure and dismissed him
@@Seeraphyn hahahaha. Ynnead is afraid of Sly Marbo because Sly Marbo is better at killing things than her
Lore Swarmlord: Epic.
Reality Swarmlord: Epically bad. 😢
Seems like it 😢
The image of canis rex slapping the avatar around with his awkward kinda proportionally short arm is really funny
I started eldar as my first army collection, and its nice seeing one of our units have a little spotlight on youtube
@Auspex Tactics Why always pick Be'lakor for daemons? There are better combat characters like Shalaxi or Bloodthirster/Skarbrand if you want to keep it more in the same points range. But those are actually dedicated melee combat monsters Be'lakor is more of a jack-of-all-trades type of character.
Be’lakor is also shit this edition
A generic Bloodthirster is a huge threat to the avatar. Because it can inflict mortal wounds at the end of the fight phase which is nuts.
Avatar should have been done with the sweep profile against Uthar. Glad to see my Nundam Morvenn Vahl punching up so well
I would have loved to see how shalaxi fared against him. I may run the numbers myself
I have a feeling the fun, silly, detailed, cost-benefit analyses like this are things Auspex lives for. Good thing we all do too lol
The swarmlord comparison changes from 10 wounds on the nid to 8 wounds when the swarmlord model appears on screen. A few other spots where a 'slide update' causes other information to change (like at the beginning when listing non-leader named big hitters).
I haven't played 40k in a good number of years, but I remember absolutely terrifying my friends with The Nightbringer. He's an absolute unit still which is nice to see.
The maths ends up with some great results -
Silent King being the absolute tankiest boy
Morvenn Vahl dealing more damage than Primarchs and Greater Daemons
Ghaz being truly bodied
Love to see the avatar putting in some work! One of the coolest units lore-wise and model-wise in all of 40k
Yeah to bad in the lore also Khaine constantly gets his ass kicked by whatever thing GW wanted to look strong that week.
i remember an Arena of Death that White Dwarf did for WFB back in 5th(?) edition, with all the most expensive special characters from each army book, plus a Bloodthirster, since they needed a round 16 combatants.
IIRC, the final fight was the Bloodthirster vs Archon, and the Bloodthirster just ruined him through raw number of attacks, and that kinda reminds me of this series - the Avatar is able to take down most opponents through raw power rather than special rules or psychic powers.
And I think that AoD was the origin of the saying "dice for the dice throne of Khorne", from the victory pic they had in WD.
Moral of the story. The Avatar should cost over 400 points
Yeah no 😂 others provide buffs and such that he doesn’t.
Nice try eldar boy
Sounds like you should just be better.
If shalaxi according to gw is worth 450 avatar is worth 500
Love this format! I wonder how things would change if the characters who are leaders now were given a minimum size unit to lead?
It should be mentioned that monsters and vehicles can shoot pistol weapons with all other weaponry so our dear Morty should’ve shot The Lantern as well
Had a thought for the future of these videos, or as a fun side video. During the Battle of Iyanden, the Avatar of Khaine challenged the Hive Tyrant leading Hive Fleet Kraken (which may have been the Swarmlord but isn't confirmed) to single combat. Instead of responding to the challenge, the Tyrant famously summoned a dozen Carnifexes to dogpile the Avatar.
I want to see the breakdown of the Avatar fighting a dozen Carnifexes.
These are very fun videos, happy to see more of these sprinkled in throughout the year!
Anyway if you set him up well, it is an unstoppable force. Say you manage to Fortune him, anything 11 str or lower will only wound on 6s. Also SoF, for shooting the wailing doom is brutal, a 6 sof dice is between 2-4 melta to the face, and a single failed invul save on almost any enemy, means you can use a 6 sof on the damage roll for auto 8 dmg, which will kill most characters.
Mathematically, you're using that 6 on the hit and not the damage.
@@Aldaris1234567 Oh sorry I meant the 6 for the damage on the combat phase, not the shooting ofc where it is better spent on the hit to trigger sust
@@MalvadoManso Lol, that's fine. The alternative obviously is fishing for that 6 to hit 1st, and if you get lucky you've got a 6 on a damage roll. If you don't get lucky, use detachment reroll and get that fate dice on that hit roll.
DUDE, you are an inspiration for youtubers, so many awesome LONG videos all the time,
mortarion can shoot with both his ranged weapons as monsters are not effected by the pistol rule. Not that it would have changed the outcome really.
Where in the rules does I say this?
@@SmurphofChaos I didn't think this was correct but I just checked and under the pistol rule itself it says it
@@Fluxramyeah, vehicles and monstera can shoot in combat, this is also nice for Silent King.
@@Fluxram oh alr thanks
I loved this series and seeing it in 10th will be great
Mortarian is a monster. He gets to shoot both his pistol and his psychic attack
Thanks for making these. I like numbers :)
Just out of interest I would love to see what Imperial Assassins could do.
Feels bad seeing the Lion doclose to nothing. He is a severely overcosted bully unit. He slaps anything weaker than him into dust, but as soon as you put him againts anything that has a decent invuln or damage cut/reduction he just falls apart. I really want to bring him, but for 90 pts more i get a full DW Knights brick that can do anything the lion does but better.
And even when compared to other "big characters" like G-man or Morty, his support abilities are mediocre at best, and the dev wounds changes just put the nail in his coffin, anything that does a decent dumber of dev wounds can just oneshot him off the table.
Poor lion, he so badly needs to have his points reduced.
"Never trust an eldar!" -Uthar
I'm just here for Morvenn Vahl beating the Avatar. That makes my day
Honestly I didn't expect Morvenn and Draigo to do as well as they did
@@builder969channel6 once I saw they was doing point for point, I knew MV would win. She's a fierce fighter for 125pts
i think a full paragon squad with morven would actually kill him. Morven isnt meant to be played on her own anymore.
@@DennisW91 I was thinking that when I watched the video. A squad of warsuits with MV would match him in point cost. His half damage taken is still brutal though
ye but also you have 6 Shoot Multimelter so on 3s 5-6 Hit with Rerolls and about 3 should Wound. If he has a Mirical Dice what he should have only 1 Mulit deals D so about 4-5 D (you will use your Mirical Dice for a 5 or a 4) and with Melta Keyword. Than you have the Rest of Shooting lets keep it simple the Avatar should get 1-2 more D.
Than Meele you use Tankshock so 14 Dice(1 Suit has the Mace) so its should be 6 MW. So at this point the Avatar has 3-1 HP Lef and still all the Meele comes. So ye on Average and for a CP you kill the Avatar with this Troop. @@theblackantonio
The nightbringer has great abs
Can you need shalaxi helbane to the rooster this time around. With +5 inv+6fnp, - 1 to hit, rerolls on hits, wounds, damage and soild psyhic and melee attack it's would act as a good benchmark since shb is top tier anti character
This makes me want a Big Bad model for Drukhari even more than ever, oof.
I'm just loving the fact that the Aeldari and particularly the Avatar of Khaine are getting some proper respect on the tabletop. Now we just need to get that to translate over to the lore 🥲
40k game: Who dares to challenge the avatar?
40k lore: Congrats on defeating your first avatar, you are a named space marine now.
The Avatar is looking pretty undercosted currently
Such an awesome video! Thank you for taking the time to do them.
Noticed a slight error at 17:47 - Abby only costs 310, not 350
Always fun to see these brawls!
I do think though that while fighting Uthar it may have made more sense for the Avatar to attack with the sweep instead of the Strike. If both attacks deal 1 damage, doubling your attacks while having basically a -1 to wound seems totally worth it. Both have enough AP to use his invuln as well. I may have missed something though with all the behind the scenes calculations!
No you're totally right there, just posted a pinned correction above. It's definitely the right move, but Uthar still wins per point by a big margin :)
I feel like, in this edition, any "Leader" characters should have gotten 1 box of their led unit to join them. Especially for like, Ghaz and Abbadon who both had their toughness tanked as well as losing their damage caps.
Brilliant analysis. This is why my guard list brings 22 lascannons in a 2000 point list. Though i don't even know if that is enough to take down the Avatar. 🤣
the best way to kill the avatar wont be with your Lascannons. It will be with the 180 lasguns that you brought along with them.
Depends on if your opponent can get off the -1 to wound, otherwise they'll have to rely on -1 to hit, which means at the end you'll be looking at about 2.75 failed saves for Khaine, a favourable average is like 9 wounds from that.
@@UrbanmechAce Assuming you are playing on a bowling ball, assuming the Avatar is _somehow_ within half range of all of them, _assuming_ you have Take Aim! for all of the squads, 180 lasguns is indeed enough - 360 shots, 60 autowounds and 180 hits resulting in 30 more wounds, 90 total wounds saved on a 2+, 15 wounds inflicted - just barely enough. That's a lot of assumptions - a more realistic count is managing to have maybe 40 lasguns in that situation, which is 80 shots, 13 autowounds and 40 hits resulting in 7 more wounds; 20 wounds total, saved on a 2+, 3-4 wounds.
Then the Avatar charges and mulches those squads.
@weissraben4476 yes but we have bayonets ;)
@@TheHaydena76 Ah, yes. Around 30 WS 4+/S3/AP0/D1 attacks against T12 (without LETHAL HITS to help). Truely, the Avatar of Khaine quakes in fear. :D
I would have been interested to see which of the challengers could kill the Avatar with perfect offensive luck (ie. all 6s to hit all 6s to wound Max damage rolls and the Avatar fails all saves) and who had no chance whatsoever. Also seems the points value of the challengers varies from the data-sheet to the per point comparison sometimes
Any character which has at least 14 attacks wins. And with perfect luck, that'll also trigger the 'on crit' abilities like Sustained Hits, right? I dunno that much about the latest edition, but...
Well, the big question is 'does the halving round up, or down'.
Trajann needs to use the '12 attacks' ability, unless you round up.
Leontus can only do 10 wounds.
Draigo wins if you round up, otherwise is stuck at 11. Or 13?
Drazhar can only get 7-10 wounds.
Uthar does 8 wounds.
Farsight does 10-12 wounds.
Back in the day in 3rd and 4th edition, I’d allow my Thousand Sons to be swarmed. All of my sorcerers had the Gift of Change spell. It was a two inch shooting spell that could be used even when locked in close combat and could pick your target. If you roll a d6 equal to or above the target’s toughness, w/ 6 always being successful, your opponents model was removed from the table and replaced with a chaos spawn that joins your squad! No saves at all.
I took out so many big bads with that spell. Demon Princes, Old One Eye, the Nightbringer, etc.
I feel like comparing the Avatar to the big centrepiece models of different armies but only comparing it to the Yncarne and not a Wraithknight is a bit odd.
Would be kinda interesting to see how it maths out. -1 isn’t nearly as defensive as halving the damage but the Heavy Wraithcannon is still massive shooting, and the Ghostglaive hits pretty hard as well
Sooo Morven Val with her body guard unit ... 325pts together.. . might actually have a shot.
These videos are always good fun. I'd love to see one where monsters match up too.
Hello, I've been loving Death Guard this edition. The Aura from Mortarion also affects his characteristics, meaning his damage couldn't be halved by Khaine. I believe damage is a characteristic that cannot be affected as well. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
Lord of the Death Guard (Aura): While a friendly DEATH GUARD unit is within 6" of this model, that unit can ignore any or all modifiers to its characteristics and to any roll or test made for it (excluding modifiers to saving throws).
Mortarion is awfully annoying in that regard. Makes many things feel bad about it.
It also might make it a cheeky winner in both raw numbers and per point ;P
Glad to see a good showing from our lads in the Enclaves.
Yeah, for a non melee army, our boi Farshight delivers. And I always fantasize about tht heavy rail cannon array 😈
I do appreciate the points being taken into consideration for this a lot.
They need to make Ghaz strong as hell again.
yeah he's a bit pathetic at the moment, a FnP would be nice and dev wounds make sense
i support this.. !! Ghaz needs to be a monster on the board.
Grey knights have a strat to turn Draigos 2+anti demon into devastating wounds. Decent chance to body him in one go.
Avatar still survives dev wounds on 2 cause of his halve damage ability
Moral of the story is the avatar needs to be substantially more than his current points cost. 400+ points.
Yeah no 😂 like auspex said at the end, he doesn’t really buff anything. A LOT of the models here can give out enormous buffs and could get 1-2 turns of shooting before engaging.
And this is without fortune...
angron might not be able to take him down, but the Berserker Glaive Master of Executions at 105pts will send the avatar packing
Would love to see this with Shalaxi Hellbane!
Shalaxi should body him.
@@Dracus40k ye for sure but what i meant every faction leader against shalaxi
@@lucahappel sure, that works too. :-)
I love these death match style videos ❤️❤️ awesome work, thanks dude!
i'd love to see this kind of comparison between the lowest of units
poxwalker, gretchin, rippers, nurglings, and such stuff
I do love one omitted fact here, that both the Silent King and the Nightbringer will usually not be just healing 1 d3. Most necron players will be bringing a reanimator. Now little known fact monsters and vehicles and solo infantry in necron armies have an oppurtunity to heal 3 d3 per their turn. If set up right you can heal 1d3 from general reanimation protocols, 1 d3 from the reanimator, 1 d3 from a technomancer. Very annoying set up.
Everybody comparing themselves vs the Avatar. Good stuff
2nd edition's avatar was THE KILLER
Mortarion would ignore the half damage and can shoot both of his ranged attacks.
Shouldn't Avatar use sweep vs. Uthar?
Nice to see Abby getting smacked around a bit now that he's lost the 3 wounds per turn cap
Needs to face up against Shalaxi Helbane. He is built for this kind of fight with full re-roll hits, wounds, and damage, plus having a 5+FNP.
And this is another reason why the Avatar is going to get nerfed AGAIN, as GW struggles to knock the Eldar our of 1st place! 😊 Space Elves just can't be allowed to keep nice things!
In actual seriousness, though, I really liked this list. I am one of those people who want the Eldar to stay top, and that without owning an army, playing it, or having any vested interest in keeping them from being dethroned, but the real reason, for me, is that, in the past, the Avatar was THE chump unit. It was powerful enough to go up against almost anything, but it's "loss" was never damning to the faction, like a named leader would be, so every model with a backstory could safely prove their mettle by 1v1-ing this thing, and all it cost the Eldar was one Young King. I remember seeing various things, over the decades, just whip the Avatar's ass, so seeing it properly triumph here, in many cases, was refreshing, even if it might just fuel the debate that the Eldar Ned more nerfs, because it's not right for the Space Marines, or some other much more purchased faction, to sit under the Eldar, in tournament performance.
On a totally petty point, is the Lird Solar NOT a High Lord? I'll totally accept that I sometimes fail on my lore, and interpreting it, but I believed that Lord Solar Leontus was also a High Lord; same as Morvenn Vahl, and Valdor, raising the HL count on the list to three?
Would have liked to have seen the norn emmisary considering how poor the swarmlord be doing these days.
Got the feeling that between designating the avatar as the target and/or being on his objective might make him an issue for the space elves.
Avatar cant handle 1 angry dwarf had me laughing xD
I love your „Duell“ vids. Awesome as ever!
Just notierst a small error. Vs Abbadon, you showed the right points with his rules (310) but later, when calculating the per-point-result you use and show the old 350 😉
I love these... Would be interested in seeing some other style videos like units that can kill the most durable units in one go. So units that can kill things like trancendant C'Tan with enhancement, aberrants, and deathwing knights.
Love the videos
All this tells me is that this unit is insanely undercosted for how stromg it hits.
Avatar always gets undercosted by a lot. Last edition it was 100pts less than a melee knight, and could easily best it in close combat.
GW are so bad at Eldar rules writing. Got some crack smoking Eldar fanboy maniac just churning out the OP.
PLEASE DO THIS MORE !
Mortarion can shoot both weapons in combat as he’s a monster.
No he can't
FYI the patriarch for the GSC is an epic hero and could be argued they are a Cults "leader"
You're forgetting one key factor. The Avatar will always roll all the 5s and 6s against me and when I run it I'll get all 1-2's, so I actually don't win. :)
The Nightbringer almost beating the Avatar 1v1 and winning on per points basis is funny cause in lore it was Khaine one defeated him 1v1 during the war in heaven.
We for sure have to get the Norn combat variant over the Swarmlord anymore right? It’s such a dope kit
*Cheers amidst a bunch of Guardians with foam fingers*
Would Tor Garadon at least give him some good punching with that Hand of Defiance? Since Avatar of Khaine got the Monster keyword right?
Could always use a knight tyrant for Chaos knights, would be interesting to have a 2+ save and T13 knight in the running. Maybe for GSC the patriarch, its got more of a chance to deal damage than lord solar.
Harlequinn could work out well for the Solitairs perhaps.
And there is Master of Executions with berzerker glaive just for 105pt that on average one shots avatar assuming he rolled 5-6 on his enhancement. You can also give him +1 to wound if desired. Also managed to one shot Astreus with him, that was funny lol.
ghaz feels like he suffers for being a leader model, he's just not able to duel well this edition. i usually just bring a gorknaught in reserves if there's a want for a melee menace, bundle some meganobz and a mekboy in there and have fun.
I think mortarian could shoot with both rotwind and the lantern as he’s a monster?
Surprised how close it is between Vahl and the avatar considering she can grenade and tank shock(assuming she got the charge). That's maybe another 5-6 MWs. Vehicle and grenade keyword on paragons and vahl is pretty scarry.
Shouldnt one of the norns be included for tyranids as it supposed to be a "primarch/general hunter" for the nids?
I was thinking that.
I'm kind of new to WH40K, but... what about High Marshal Helbrecht? I want to get into the Black Templars
Magnus can use the save re-roll in both the fight phase and the shooting phase, if that makes any difference for your math, since he has 4 points
Avatar does not half damage against Mortarion, as his "Lord of the Death Guard" ability not only negates modifiers to model characteristics (toughness, save, movement, etc.) but also weapon and attack characteristics - everything that falls under the purview of "UNIT characteristics." The same can be said about the sister's stratagem, "Light of the Emperor." These are the only two instances of effects that also include attack and weapon characteristics. As a PSA, I am aware that one supermajor ruled that they *didn't* work that way. That's a tournament though.
Yeah I just assumed he was using the Warhammer World Champ FAQ from GW on that. The Silent King can activate the samr buff and it would make a difference I'm sure but I suspect more and more tournaments may start following that GW FAQ even though at the moment its only strictly the case for that one tournament.
How about a video like that in 30K? Like Kha'banda vs Daemon Fulgrim etc.?
I don't really like saying that both count as charging when dealing with Always Strike First units. Even if they are charged, they should hit first by being the defender, yes? Not that it helps the Lion here. Poor green cat man.
The Avatar and the Nightbringer being so close now makes sense, given both are literally pieces of what they once were.
Nice to see the Avatar being useful, despite being kinda out of a different playstyle than the rest of the Eldar.
Throw 10 Deathwing Knights+Strikemaster at the Avatar. He's done, trust me.
When fighting with Uthar, it's better for Avatar to make sweep attack, he then deals 4W (92% damage). But still victory per point goes to Uthar (about 240%)
How the mighty have fallen
No matter the outcome of the Avatar vs the Night ringer in combat the Avatar still wins the most important battle: having a vastly superior model!