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Ronan Point: a 50 year building safety problem - BBC Newsnight
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- Опубліковано 14 чер 2018
- The Ronan Point disaster took place almost exactly 50 years ago, and there are clear parallels to Grenfell: in both cases, government policy was pointed at one objective but lost sight of building safety.
In this report, Newsnight's policy editor Chris Cook takes a look at the safety of high rise residential buildings.
Newsnight is the BBC's flagship news and current affairs TV programme - with analysis, debate, exclusives, and robust interviews.
Website: www.bbc.co.uk/newsnight
Twitter: / bbcnewsnight
Facebook: / bbcnewsnight
Lowest bidder got the jobs.
Same as now
It was literally built with newspapers in some places.
I learned this today but that was Absolutely shocking 😮
Delboy joked he lived in a Lego set in the sky. Lego looks better by comparison. At least it interlines
Now Barton House(built 1958) in Bristol is declared unsafe and evacuated.
No Ball Games on This Wall! It will collapse.
Unskilled labor hired for the construction on piecework pay rates, who filled structural joints they could not see with trash and paper instead of concrete and missed eighty percent of the bolts holding the structural walls to the floors which are necessary to stop a 'house of cards' cascade collapse. There is *no way* that I would feel safe in any of these buildings that (barely) stand today.
Piece work for construction? What were they thinking?
$$$$$$
As a Yank, I'd always ass-u-med (apparently wrongly) that the UK had powerful unions during that post-war period, and Labour Party sponsored laws to support said unions (and workers)... no?
@@MajorCaliber Unions look after workers' rights and conditions, not the things they produce (other than whether they are a health and safety threat to the workers). If the pay and conditions were reasonable, they wouldn't get involved and let's be honest, everyone was at that time excited by this burst of building new homes for the slum dwellers.
Modular construct is having a resurgence and can actually be done safely, but you can not just leave out all the metal and stuff the walls full of newspaper and hope it doesn't collapse.
Bodget n Leggit Ltd
This guy does great work, keep it up.
Seams like it would be cheaper to tear them down and build new ones.
But there were no seams, that's the whole point.
I can't believe such housing were conceived. I grew up in France in a building from the 60's and it was nothing like this. We had gaz, once a flat was on fire but it went ok with no death.
That sounds safer than this, but any modern concrete structure has a limited lifespan and when a structure this tall fails, it will likely be a catastrophe. It's distressing to think of all the mid-rise concrete towers, built in the 30 years after WWII, which will have to come down one way or another in the next 30 to 60 years.
Many French blocks used Sectra - a very strong and good but expensive method of construction at the time. The have internal steel reinforcements and a special method of drying the concrete after it has been poured over the rebars. Safe as houses mate.
@@pcno2832 " but any modern concrete structure has a limited lifespan" That is false. Properly built reinforced concrete can last *centuries* . It's incredibly strong and durable. Dams designed to hold back hundreds of thousands of tons of water are built this way. Same story with bridges and any tunnel. A tower block can last a century as long as its maintained.
Aside from the building methods and thoroughness/know-how of the builders the quality of the concrete is also important. For instance in the former Soviet Union during the 1960's and 1970's all the high-quality concrete was earmarked for the Soviet military as they built many (quite impressive in fact) bunkers, factories for weapons manufacture and harbors. The Soviet civilian housing really got the short end of the stick as they got the cheap concrete with a high percentage of sand in it.
Even the Soviet authorities knew they couldn't fool the people and simply built these low-quality concrete housing blocks claiming they were "temporary housing" in which the tenants were suppose to live for 10-15 years and then move to properly built buildings once the Soviet Union could focus more on its people rather than their military... (hint for the post-Cold War generation: it never happened). After 15-20 years several cracks appeared while people still lived in those "temporary housing" projects.
In other countries however almost the opposite applied. Modern post-war buildings used high-quality concrete with the idea several *generations* could live and grow-up in these modernist "utopias". Now in reality this actually led to some "social issues" but the *buildings themselves* still stand today with very little signs of being "unfit for living".
Scandinavian/Nordic countries put great emphasis on modern, clean and safe buildings for their great post-war urbanization waves. While the Swedish "Million Apartments Program" might look dull today and generally house "lower-income people" they were built like an old Volvo. Robust and built to last for a very long time. 50-70 years later they sure look like they will be around for at least another 50 years.
Ronan Point? Sloppily built from the very beginning. Nothing to do with the concrete itself.
Brilliant
"Uhh, this is a scale model of the block. Uh, there are twenty-eight stories with two hundred and eighty modern apartments. There are three main lifts and two service lifts. Access would be from Dibbingley Road.
Uhh, the structure is built on a central pillar system, uh ...with cantilevered floors in pre-stressed steel and concrete. Uh, the dividing walls on each floor section are fixed with recessed magnalium flanged grooves. Uh, by avoiding wood and timber derivatives and all other inflammables, uh,... ..we have almost totally removed the risk... of..
Quite frankly, I think the central pillar system may need strengthening a bit."
So basically, there'll be no more of this "shelter-in-place" nonsense, and "containment" of the fire theories, and so for ANY bit of fire anywhere in the building, *everyone has to evacuate* no questions asked. Pity.
Great video. I’m just a little puzzled at the really mediocre audio quality?
If this was a small time UA-camr still growing their channel it would be absolutely FINE.
This is the BBC though?
This is often the direct broadcast sound before "finalized" for actual broadcast. I have much material from 1990 after fall of the iron curtain from East Germany that surfaced from archives that have the same 100% Stereo panning. During one of those, they show an East German grocery store with customers, and the narrator was on the left, but you could still hear the carts and customers on the right. If you wish to go back to the "natural" sound, just mute the left channel. This way you can watch a preview while still be able to mute one track.
The good thing is that you can have either the voice track (left) or the actual filmed sound (right) extracted even after merging - albeit monaural each of course.
Sorry, I'm going to call the BS: The councillors weren't born when Ronan Point was built...
Wow!
WWII: Nope, don't know about it -- I was born in the 1960s.
The Fall of the Roman Empire: Uh-uh, know nothin' about it -- wasn't there!
Etc., etc., etc.
Do these elected officials read? Many of them have gone to university. What were they doing there? I know when I was there, I was reading -- lots and lots of books!
OK, you don't like books? Well, there are news reports, and Grenfell has brought out a lot of old footage featuring council estates and their shodding construction.
Com'on, folks! Stop making excuses for people who should know better!
Sorry, I meant to say 'call out the BS.'
@Daniel Eyre The joys of socialism.
@Daniel Eyre It has everything to do with socialism.
@Daniel Eyre Yes it does. The two are mutually dependent. Great Britain was not destroyed by the Nazis, it was and is still being destroyed by Socialism. Shoddy work, slipshod manufacturing, careless construction, inferior materials. Socialism infects, corrupts consumes and destroys everything it touches. I was there, I was subjected to it, I saw it, I experienced it.
Maydew house. Another tower block in South London thats been closed down and evacuated, because of excess asbestos apparently.
2:16 "long as it is standing it looks safe" no shit what kind of building looks safe when not standing.
This man was THE authority on these buildings-it was HIM that devoted his life to the safety of the people living in them. What he is saying was perfect sense to me, in other words, BECAUSE they are still standing they DO look safe, we would have no reason to believe otherwise, but the truth is very different. He mentions later that, and i quote “it is LUCK that has gotten us here”, he’s right, but i’m sure if there had been a severe fire or a truck had hit one of these buildings, things would’ve been rather different. Even when they are being demolished they are very dangerous, the untied walls have a nasty habit of ‘pancaking’ even when being taken down slowly and carefully.
Voice is all on the left channel.
Why are most flats 13 floors in the uk I also live in one
Right year for music and left year for the talking.
The quality of the sound is terrible.
Take them all down. they look horrible anyway, problem solved
I live in Australia where towers are now being built all over the place where houses used to be and I just can't help wondering how save they are. They're just getting higher and higher with no thought of danger.
At this rate, it's time we stopped breeding like rabbits so we don't have to live in the sky.
The blessings of socialism.
I suppose you missed the part where the substandard construction work was done by a private company, lol.
@@Millenia3D the constructors were subcontracted to the city. The city is its own contractor. The contractor is responsible for approval and inspections. Huge payoffs for turning a blind eye. Where have you been? Your ignorance is staggering.
@@saintmartins6729 Darling, you are mixing up social housing with socialism. This proves your own ignorance.
@@walterrudich2175 Social housing is part of socialism. Uniformity. State ownership. Regulation and Limitation of choice, It's a custodial view that crushes everything good about being alive. Socialism is a death sentence and it has destroyed every society that has adopted it in any form whatsoever. I am not your darling.
@@saintmartins6729 You are so out of line, darling.
but because grenfell didn't collapse doesn't that nullify the argument somewhat?
Well, across the nationwide sample set of 1,585 such LPS-built towers, yes, it does somewhat nullify the urgency, and would seem to ignore the *in-built safety factor* that all such "systems" are designed with. Without dusting off ye olde undergrad Prob-Stats text, it seems IMprobable that across tens of thousands of flats, and hundreds of thousands of residents, over the *span of 50+ years*, that ZERO people have had a gas explosion or fully-involved fire, that NONE of these towers has ever suffered a collision from a heavy rubbish truck/delivery lorry/etc... not even a single collision from a General Aviation "aeroplane" in that foggy climate?...
... along with the inescapable (and cynical) fact that a whole new crop of "cowboy" remediation companies are, once again, picking the public's purse to "correct" the more publicized of the issues.
As for Grenfell, I'm not clear on what "system" it was built with but: a) they certainly DID completely evacuate many surrounding buildings during and for days after the fire; b) as far as mild-steel structural connections/joints being weakened to the point-of-failure by fire, Grenfell definitely passed the "acid test" on THAT one!
Bottom line: if we believe that exploited underpaid Ronan worker, that only a paltry 20% of bolts were installed ON RONAN, then the "Passage of Time" suggests that the vast majority had more like 50% -80% installed, and that turns out to be "enough". (Still WAY TOO SHODDY for my tastes... would not buy/rent!)
Grenfell seems to have been built using similar techniques to modern buildings, not LPS. While towers like Ronan Point were seemingly built using LPS(large panel systems) prefab panels(and with poor design & construction) for every wall & floor, so much more prone to progressive failure/collapse.
The Grenfell architect said '..the tower had been designed with attention to strength, following the Ronan Point collapse of 1968, "and from what I can see could last another 100 years." He described it as a "very simple and straightforward concept. You have a central core containing the lift, staircase and the vertical risers for the services and then you have external perimeter columns. The services are connected to the central boiler and pump which powered the whole development and this is located in the basement of the tower block. This basement is approximately four metres deep and in addition has two metres of concrete at its base. This foundation holds up the tower block and in situ concrete columns and slabs and pre-cast beams all tie the building together"'
The age of the buildings isn't in itself the issue, it's the methods that were common around that time.
The particular method that seems to have been common in the UK for buildings like Ronan Point was the 'Bison industrialised building system':
'In tower blocks over 12 storeys in height, all of the walls were loadbearing - external and internal. Whilst there were no partition walls, the internal walls were still thinner at 6 inches in thickness. Two-bedroom flats could be constructed out of 21 pre-cast concrete pieces. The bathroom and toilet elements could be constructed from a similarly few number of pre-fabricated pieces. The lift shaft and staircases could be constructed out of pieces that were 3 storeys high. The method was limited in that it was only really practical for two and three-bedroom flats.'
@@MajorCaliber Grenfell Tower is not an LPS structure. It was constructed in 1972 and complied to the building standards of 1970 which were changed from those for Ronan Point.
@@hbrack7031 Yes, according to Mr. Monotone's quote from the Grenfell architect, it would seem that Grenfell Tower was NOT LPS, but mostly cast-in-place concrete, with limited use of pre-cast beams. BUT... the (in)famous Robin Hood Gardens was also erected in 1972, and it DID use an LPS system (from The Netherlands, IIRC). There's nothing INHERENTLY wrong with Large Panel Systems--you just have to *assemble them properly!*
@@hbrack7031 Anyway, the issue at Grenfell was NOT the concrete, nor how the concrete got there, but rather the bureaucratic INSANITY of gluing *highly flammable cladding* to a building that was inherently fire-resistant to begin with, just to make it "pretty". Some ruined careers, and horse-whipping, are in order here.
Free Tommy!
Free Tommy!
Harsh sentence by a treacherous judge. This is Britain, not the middle east!
no im christianophobic. bruv.
There's no political solution, collapse the government, race_war NOW!!!!!
Free Tommy!
BigNig
No.
Not to be forgotten BigNig Tommy Robinson pled guilty.
Oh fuck off. He pled guilty u fucking chav.
There's no political solution, collapse the government, race_war NOW!!!!!