The Galaxy class was the first to actually have a reintegration system so splitting the saucer off any of the older ships involved explosive bolts as an emergency measure, and a nightmare to put back together
You knock the "minor" refits but in truth the US Navy has been doing this for decades. They added a huge chunk to the Seawolf class fast attack nuclear sub USS Jimmy Carter , making it a hundred feet longer. Just how did they do it ? They built it as a module cut the sub and then added the new section and it welded it back together and connected everything together. As somebody who has worked in shipyards this is not uncommon practice. How do you think aircraft carriers are built ? They're built in huge modular chunks that get welded and bolted together. This is the same way they fix some ships after battle damage. They cut the bad section out and put it together with a new modular section it's not uncommon at all. Truthfully they started doing this stuff in World War II. Since they build these things in orbit , weight restrictions for building large modular pieces would be next to zero. Couple that with the amount of technology that's demonstrated in the Star Trek universe it is not at all unfeasible to be able to replace an entire engineering section or warp nacells or secondary hall or bridge module. Truthfully , I believe with their level of technology these things would be relatively easy . Especially if it's done in a modular fashion which it would most likely be. Think of it this way most things now are plug-and-play , so wouldn't you figure in the 23rd and 24th century and forward it would also be plug and play ? Or maybe even a easier version of plug and play . So think about it in a modular sense and the minor refits might be able to make a little more sense to you , even though some of them are still somewhat a little greater than minor. None-the-less unbolt unplug gouge out the welds , float the old one out float the new one in. Installation is exactly reverse of removal.
Yup post war 1920-30s would see vast refits of UK and Italian and USN capital ships . Hell just look at the full rebuilt West Virginia 1944 she was basically a new battle ship. Yup your ship doesn’t have to modular to get a vast over haul. The West Virginia wasn’t the only USN BB to see that kind of rebuild the USS California the AZ exc. I can keep adding ships it isn’t hard
While all that is true, I don't think there has ever been a refit as extensive as the Enterprise-A. Not a single thing is the same and it can easily be seen as a completely new ship.
I always figured the Excelsior's Transwarp Drive was the thing that caused Starfleet to re-jigger the warp scale. That would make it the prototype engine upon which all future warp drives would be based, and why Starfleet stopped calling it "Transwarp" in favor of just the new "warp drive".
I like the idea. Something behind a "wall" in Kirks time might be usual in Picards. The point about the redifined warp scale actually makes sense from a lore perspective. It answers why they got a completely different scale, and why they never mention that kind of transwarp again.
A pretty interesting visual thing to consider: Only from the TNG-era onward, the warp nacelles were actually "open" and showed blue plasma on the sides, as opposed to the closed nacelles on the Constitution and Excelsior (and related vessels). This would be consistent with a major re-design of the standard warp drive from lessons learned on the Excelsior class, and applied on its successor, the Ambassador class, first. Which means that all classes from the Ambassador up were fitted with a variant of the "transwarp" engine that was prototyped on the Excelsior.
I think the warp scale was actually adjusted due to Kirk’s Enterprise completely busting previous theories about just how fast a warp drive can go. In the same movie Excelsior and transwarp were introduced we are told that Enterprise held speed records that the Excelsior was supposed to break.
@@Shapes_Quality_Control Indeed also something like that would be kinda fitting in a sense as travel speeds in the whole show are in themselves based on the idea of breaking another wall at least from the perspective of the audience. Namely of course the breech of the light speed barrier also kinda makes sense making a whole new scale or at least reinventing one to describe velocities that go beyond what was once thought possible kinda like how we often use the mach scale to describe the velocity of supersonic aircraft though admittedly that is in part because crossing or even approaching the sound barrier introduces unique quirks to the operation that it makes sense to think in terms of that transition but there is of course nothing to say the same wouldn't be true for them. It's certainly shown that in real life exceeding certain thresholds of velocity in a given environments can indeed be much more than an incremental change in operational variables.
Thank you!! I have argued this very thing for years! Glad to know someone else had the brains to see this too. NOTHING canon ever said it was a failure, and Cpt .Scott sabotaged the engine on the Excelsior by removing a few parts that he hands to Dr. McCoy. Shortly thereafter, the warp scale changes... gee I wonder why?
The proliferation of the class makes sense canonically. Even in a world where money doesn't exist, resources demands still do. If you can build four Mirandas and two Excelsiors for the resource cost of one Galaxy, you build the older model ships, especially during a war scenario. Considering that canonically their systems were easily upgraded to be on par with modern ships and that they used "tried and true" ODN style systems it makes even more sense.
Actually resource demands are non existent in star trek. Only thing that is required is power. The reason that money isn't needed is because of replicators. since energy and matter are interchangeable in star trek they can convert any matter into energy then reform it back to whatever matter they need. this may have been true though pre tng since we dont see replicators before then.
Time was also a factor. During the Dominion war, the Allied powers couldn't build ships faster than the Dominion (In the Pale Moonlight). Moreover, some stuff couldn't be replicated like dilithum crystals and latinium. I think in Voyager they had to trade for parts all the time, so even the energy to run the replicators was finite. Parts were easier to make, but OP's point is still valid. Choose between building lots of frigates or some cruisers or one "heavy" cruiser.
@@ookla22000ify It is established that not everything can be replicated. Certain complicated components, and materials could not. For example, latinum became standard for powers that rejected the abandonment of capitalism, like the Ferengi, because it was unreplicatable. Also, there were acquisition waiting lists for many ship and station components as seen on DS9. But generally yes. Most matter and energy are interchangable
It doesn't make sense in a war scenario at all. Old designs are never built during wars. If they need a cheaper vehicle or ship, they use a new design that is just smaller or cheaper. Assembly lines are very expensive and the assembly lines for anything that is several decades old were scapped and surplanted a long time ago. For example, the US still flies b-52s but they don't make any more of them. They just letting the existing stock die off and letting the fleet shrink.
WRT saucer separation, it's likely that earlier Starfleet ships were built with this capability, but it was intended for emergency purposes only, and that separation would leave the saucer section as basically just a giant lifeboat with minimal power. If the stardrive section was the lifeboat section, it would be able to get home, but the saucer would need rescuing. With this theory, ships wouldn't be able to just reattach to their missing parts, it would be something that would need a dedicated repair crew or space station to accomplish. Therefore, it never happens onscreen. The Galaxy class is likely the first ship capable of separating as a normal part of its functionality. Its size would help with this, as the saucer is large enough to accommodate a big enough reactor to make it a useful craft on its own.
This is pretty much confirmed in canon. Even the Constitution class could separate the saucer, and the blueprints even show 'feet' upon which the saucer can rest when disconnected from the secondary hull. However, it wasn't until the Galaxy class that such a separation could be reversed by the ship's crew themselves. Other ships would require a trip back to space dock for re-assembly.
I always figured that the late 2200s interpretation of "transwarp" pretty much implied a warp drive capable of TNG-scale speeds, unlike the "transwarp" as it was explained in Voyager. Scotty's attempt at sabotage only delayed the introduction of that "transwarp" just enough to drive the plot.
This could be considered blasphemy but I like the Excelsior class more than the Constitution / Refit. It has no spindly neck and just looks like a tough sleek profile that is intimating and fast standing still. I don't get all the hate thrown at this ship, it is one of my favorite designs.
I agree, I've always liked the Excelsior because before the Ambassador class was a thing it represented progress for the federation. It's design seemed like a fair nod to the design before and a proper foundation to the designs that came after.
I like the Excelsior. It seems to me that this ship became the backbone of Starfleet during the 78 year gap between Kirk's "death" on the Enterprise B and the TNG premiere.
The Federation got their "monies" worth from that ship - just like CBS did. Think about it, all the resources that Starfleet put into building Excelsior class ships paid off handsomely - a service life of at least 80 years and still being able to be put into front line service, after a upgrade, for a fight to save the Alpha Quadrant. In hindsight, as soon as the design was ready, every ship they built saved them from having to build multiple ships later and increased their overall fleet size. Even if it took twice as much resources was a Constitution to build, that was still a bargain. The most amortized ship in Starfleet history in terms of performance, the Miranda does have a longer service life, but not as a frontline _capable_ ship.
what are your thoughts on the jj vengeance being that timelines version of the excelsior even thou it seems to have more in common with the federation dreadnaught vessel star empire?
The Vengeance was developed twenty years before the prime Excelsior. I think it's more probable that both vessels drew inspiration from the Constitution-class. Which makes sense since the Enterprise is the flagship in both timelines.
@Lore Reloaded A personal theory I had in regards to the Transwarp Drive as to why we never really hear much about it in regards why it was not continued or even for that matter pursued for a good while. The theory? Because of the actions of "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock", canon wise the Excelsior Class Starship was seen as the rather pride of the Federation, very much similar to how the HMS Titanic, and many others of White Star Lines were all seen as the newest and latest ship of the line. So when Scotty basically "stripped" major components to get the Transwarp Drive to malfunction or in this case, "hacked" this became an embarrassment for the Federation. Keep in mind that the tension of the Klingons and the Federation including with the events of Genesis was at an all time high. So with that being the reason the Federation would want to promote the Excelsior and it's Transwarp Drive as the most advanced and technological achievement for both the Federation, the Construction Yards that build the Excelsior Class, and Star Fleet as well. In other words...it was a political propaganda promotion to demonstrate the pride of Starfleet, and well when the Excelsior failed to achieve Transwarp Drive due to one Scotty's tinkering? The Federation saw this as both a potential hazard that could be exploited SHOULD other factions find out, AND also the fact that everyone at Earth Space Dock witnessed the failure of the Transwarp Drive a potential PR nightmare both for Starfleet and the Federation. Very similar to flaws in say the history of the US military like say the Osprey crash, that caused some to question in Congress funding for the Marine Osprey program, or the concerns of the F-35 Lightning II, or even the AH-66 Comanche when concerns of the ordinance couldn't fit into it's internal pod bay. Just like then? I'm sure Starfleet and the Federation use media to help promote awareness and pride for their programs and well if other factions basically, "rivals" caught wind of this? Like Genesis again! Would put Starfleet and the Federation in a political hot seat, and finally bring their integrity and the trust in their starships called to question. Both by Starfleet, the Federation, and finally the people living IN the Federation as well. Keep in mind the Federation is an organization of "multiple" races or species all working to a common goal. Not something say like the Klingon Empire, or the Romulan Star Empire that is dominated by the major races of their selective factions. So if the people of the Federation caught wind of this? Imagine how many worlds might question the integrity of the Federation could provide them with either the protection, aid, and so on if their starships couldn't work. Which canon wise? I believe for a good why Transwarp Drive was dropped as both Public Relations, Political, and finally Propaganda reasons.
@MGaz Well your argument is on the basis of course of writing and production as well. While indeed valid the premise of what I am relating is how the Star Trek Universe relates from the fictional side to the real world as well. The issue of course is the concern of the Excelsior Class, and also the fact of it's Transwarp Drive. First lets look at the writers premise regarding the Excelsior Class and Transwarp Drive. When we look at the Excelsior it was the Ship of the Line, the next be duke a roo to take the Enterprise aka Constitution Refit's place. Aka the new kid on the block! So when the movie from Star Trek III the Search for Spock takes place to keep Genesis under wraps what does Star Fleet plan to do? Decommission the Enterprise! That's a reality in this world even if you look at the US Navy and have companies like Northrop Grumman have projects and bids invested into for projects and contracts come into play if you have a rival company competing what does that company do? Political Intrigue that's what they do! It's fact, look it up, read upon it. I'm from Hampton Roads, VA aka 757 so I think my fellow neighbors know what I am relating to here. Deal with it! LOLZ! Now you go ahead with the lack of logic or grammar and note dozens of times the "writers" per say ignore things about warp drive and continuity. Fact, it's Science Fiction! So lets debunk a few things. First writers ignored warp travel...actually they didn't the principle of creating a bubble around an object and folding space between two points which to that issue for instance thus causing that object to travel between two points is in fact "Warp Travel". The simple issue of course is how quickly could it be done. It's like the same principle of the Transporter, essentially your body is broken down into a form of molecular data, stored, then downloaded or in this case "transported" via through a data streaming method and reconstituted on another transporter. Just instead of creating a bubble and folding two points for a shorter distance to travel? It's actually instead broken down, simplified into data form and finally transferred or transported to another point. Now you argue that the writers of Voyager "ignored" Enterprise. Heads up: Voyager came out BEFORE the show Star Trek Enterprise, in fact Star Trek Enterprise was the last show still owned by Paramount to be broadcasted before the Writers Strike, and also the Viacom split. #KnowYourShit ! Now regarding the logic on the Enterprise Refit, and also the Klingon Bird of Prey. First off there is more than once the Enterprise risked going through the Galactic Barrier. TOS episodes: TOS: "By Any Other Name" & TOS: "Is There In Truth No Beauty" Just to name a few so to state that the USS Enterprise could not penetrate the Galactic Barrier and reach the center of the Galaxy is laughable. Next lets talk the Klingons... As shown in Star Trek: Enterprise it is shown that Klingon starships are in fact made to be durable, WTF would you think even AFTER Star Trek III they would still use the Bird of Prey on into TNGs/DS9 K'vort Class Bird of Prey well into the 24th century? Simple! It works that's why. Now if your remember in Enterprise a Raptor Class was hiding out in an area of the sun enduring. And if the Bird of Prey can survive due to precise calculations to achieve Time Warp? Keep in mind with computer and console modifications to make it compatible for the Enterprise crew to read? Then it is safe to assume as well that in fact a Bird of Prey could reach the center of the galaxy as well. With the right calculations, and planned route. Very similar to how a spacecraft making reentry needs to calculate trajectory. #AgainKnowYourShit ! PS: William Shatner ALSO directed Star Trek V...so yeah, might want to duece on the Shatner himself for that one LOLZ! Finally lets talk Voyager, and taking a LONG time to get back home! First "Voyager" being an Intrepid Class frigate was assigned in the Alpha Quadrant to pursue Marque members for apprehension in the Badlands. Remember Tuvok? Oh yes, he's an Intelligence Agent infiltrating the Marque for Janeway. Now what happened? The Caretaker an entity yanked Voyager and the remaining Marque members being Chakotay, Torres and others into the Delta Quadrant much like how Q took the Galaxy Class Enterprise and thrust them a great distance away to intercept the Borg. The only difference here was...the Caretaker was dieing and needed someone to take his place! Sad to say that's like taking a US Navy Destroyer and hurling it all the way to the Black Sea, and expect it to make it home the next day back to port in Newport News. MY GOD YOUR LOGIC IS FUCKING BRILLIANT! Voyager was too far away to make it back so easily, still had a mission after consolidating the surviving Marque members to be absorbed into it's crew to survive, map the Delta Quadrant, learn to get along, and finally my god SO many fans forget this... "Have TONS of obstacles ranging from civilizations, to the BORG, KAZON, SPECIES 8472, AND FINALLY THE VOTH TO DEAL WITH! So that and storytelling because we are talking about a TV Show here what in the world is the journey of Voyager paralleling here folks? Homer's The Odyssey! OMFG MGaz your logic is so illogical it's FUCKING BRILLIANT! Take a road trip, oh a week, or a month, plan point A to point B and SEE if you make it there on time due to unforeseen circumstances? I should know because back in 1994, my mother, father, me travelled across country in a Class C Holiday Rambler to Albany, Oregon to go to my brother's graduation and guess what? WE WERE LUCKY TO MAKE IT ON TIME! #StrikeThreeKnowYourShit ! #YourOut ! Oh I'm sorry was your lack of typing, computation, and even grasp of the English language too much for you to handle? Shhh put my barrel in your mouth and suck it, let it BLOW your mind! LOLZ!
I recall in another episode there was the suggestion that Starfleet vessels tend to be vastly one species. So there are Vulcan, Andorian, and Tellarite crewed ships out there with their names, climate adjusted, and predominantly crewed. ... At least that explains why even centuries into the Federation that Starfleet seems to have less than 1% of the crew on the ships we see being aliens.
maclennanld. Starfleet is a human organization by and large and predates the federation. In most cases alien membership is relatively low because relatively few want to join. I mean it was nearly a century before the first Vulcan joined and they were a founding member! No, whats REALLY odd is that defending federation space and people seems to be entirely up to starfleet... where are the Andorian Vulcan and 100+ other races with their fleets when the Borg come knocking? Or when Klingons get rowdy? Did they just opt out of the Dominion war all together?? Seems like the humans are getting shafted in this deal! Starting to empathise with the terra first crowd!
As noted in DS9 when a planet became part of the federation its military assets were absorbed into starfleet. Again as noted by a Vulcan in the 22nd century, humanity was advancing at a rate never seen before by other races. Thus it makes sense that when the Federation is formed that starfleet become the main military arm of the Federation and all others be absorbed into it creating true unity.
Out of universe, that's simply for make-up budget reasons. That why we see more non-human officers on Discovery and in the movies in general. Another thing to point out, I'm pretty sure it's canon that the Federation counts a number of non-oxygen breathing species among its number. Diamanda Hagan did a great video about this where she suggested that in a lot of those cases it's just easier for members of those species to get their own ships where the whole atmosphere is [insert non-oxygen gas here] than to try and outfit them with special gear to interact with oxygen breathers every time they leave their quarters (their quarters of course having independent life-support systems). I kinda hope Discovery runs with that idea and actually has them meet a Starfleet ship crewed by methane breathers. That'd make for an interesting episode.
True, but I just felt like pointing out that I don't remember one alien crewed ship with an alien inspired name of federation design in the shows. It definitely gives the impression that humans far out number any other species. It would of been a nice touch if some of the other ships featured in the show had an alien name and alien Captain, by TNG the tellerites should of had built a few federation standard ships. Star wars explained their disparity by having the humans being by far the most populated, outnumbering the next five most populated species combined. I remember there being one species transported in an environmental suit which couldn't serve alongside humanity on the same ship. Out of 180+ species many likely breathed other gases or needed widely different concentrations of oxygen then humans required.
honorable mention We also get to see the Enterprise Bs Sister ship take on the defiant as well known as the USS Lakota which was also an Excelsior Refit.
Constitution Class might be the most celebrated design, but all signs in the known lore really point to the Excelsior Class being Starfleet's most successful design. I think it's one of the great, untold stories of Star Trek because there's that enormous period of time between the original era, and the TNG era, and a large portion of it had the Excelsior class remain the Federations' flagship class for a generation. In a lot of ways too, the Excelsior was the revolutionary gateway chassis bridge between the TOS era ships and the TNG era ships. And even if, no fun allowed explanation is because of budgetary reasons, nonetheless I kind of like that about it. Designs that last decades are just so much more interesting. Like, even in the era of the Sovereign and a bit beyond...the Excelsior basic design is just so solid and good that it almost transcends technological progression. Like, they could even in the 25the century build a new set of "Excelsior Mk-II" ships that just slightly update the basic design of the chassis, fill it with cutting edge technology, and it'd still have its place. I love that idea, especially if it were potentially an accident. Like, they made a chassis to test Transwarp drive, which didn't work...but they accidentally stumbled on potentially the most successful chassis design in Starfleet's history.
(A casual viewer's Opinion) The Excelsior became more of a "decorative sword" for Admirals. Basically take an aging "heavy cruiser" and keep it up to par but not much else. Can take a beating if needed, but ultimately acts as a command center ship, coordinating the fleet & if needed, act as a Heavy reserve. It makes sense to retrofit & reuse large vessels since it would compensate for the longer production/deployment time when initially produced.
It's almost like Paramount/CBS wants Star Trek to die. Between the laughably low budgets, the questionable show running and the CBS No-Access pay wall, the only reason Star Trek still exists is because people love(ed) the universe enough to continue watching and paying more for declining returns.
They keep trying to break out of their niche and into the mass market. For these studio execs it's not enough to have a thriving hardcore fanbase, they want it all. They want the non-trekkie masses to buy McDonald's cups with Kirk and Bones on the side. They want movies that make 800 million dollars. They aren't happy with "just" a successful TV series. They have to have 2 or even 3 concurrent Trek series and use the brand to completely shoulder their streaming service. All this shit turns into mediocre films made to please everyone (read: bland action blockbusters), over saturation of the brand in the TV market in the 90s and now unrealistic expectations for it on a streaming service nobody wants (along with the same problem of trying to appeal to more than just the "core" market, gaining few new fans but alienating many of the old ones). Eh, I'm happy there's any sort of Trek coming out these days, but this shit could be handled so much better if it was in the hands of people who gave a damn.
No access? Dude wait to the end of the season, give them 10 bucks watch all the episodes and then unsubscribe. You aren’t paying for cable here, you aren’t locked in.
The Excelsior was ahead of it's time. Allot of experimental technology was put into it. It was better than the Constitution in every way. Speed, maneuverability, structurally, sensors, weapons, shielding. And was more than a match for anything the Klingons or Romulans had at the time. The ship was so good that construction of it continued into the early part of the 24th century.
@@HappyBeezerStudios I think it looks so small because the rest of the ship looks thicker and more durable, with that super stocky neck that connects it to bottom half of the ship. Unlike the constitution where the neck was super thin and looked like a single torpedo would lead to the saucer floating away.
Considering that the Lakota could go up against the Defiant just by modding it, it was a damn good design and probably the model for the Sovereign class.
The Excelsior is an interesting ship in canon imo because it was obviously a huge step up from previous ships and apparently became ubiquitous over the 80+ years it saw service as a prestigious vessel. Yet practically nothing visually pioneered by this design seemed to influence later ships. Besides a few kitbashes that we might assume are just the odd development mule since we see them once or twice at most what did later ships acrually take from the design? The next heavy, the Ambassador looks like a direct link between the Connie refit and the Galaxy. Was the Ambassador a retro design? The Miranda by comparison seemed to have spawned several related classes of ship and design elements are seen throughout trekdom.
The original Ambassador class existed only as a drawing by Andrew Probert and a half-model prop. It looked like a middle ground between the Excelsior and Galaxy classes. When it came to seeing it on air though, the model makers only had two days to build it. Getting the sleek lines right would have taken months so they reverted to using simple circular shapes, leaving us with the Ambassador we know. I like to headcanon that the Excelsior was an outlier due to that transwarp drive.
Kirk Jacobson. Even Proberts version doesnt share a ton with the Excelsior. Its likely that he intended it to have similar detailing on the neck with the deep grooves, something hinted at on the canon model with simple coloring. Both versions have exposed elements on the top of the nacelles aimilar to the Excelsior. Funny enough the canon version has similar struts that may be a through line from Excelsior to Galaxy but Proberts version doesnt! If anything they make me think 09 star trek Enterprise lol. But much of whats unique about the Excelsior seems to have died off with that ship. The negative space at the bottom of the ship by the cove is something I always liked, the flat top of the secondary hull seems very naval and is unique among star trek ships. I always thought it may have been an open deck space under a containment field where you might conduct flight ops like a sea based carrier. Oh, and the first time I saw the E in the theater I honestly thought it was some sort of super advanced Excelsior type ship lol, I still see it as a spiritual successor to the ship. Both were movie specific expensive builds and canon wise both seemed to represent Starfleet getting its shit together as a military power.
DrewLSsix yea of course there are companies not paid I guess but what does Picard’s family run a vineyard for or Sisko’s dad runs a restaurant. These are usually incorporated.
I don't think this is Canon, but seriously with Discovery what's Canon anymore..... ANYWAYS from all the fan material and on screen evidence, one reason the Excelsiors endured was due to their overbuild hulls. The Theory goes that due to the initial prototype being designed for Trans Warp, the hulls were literally overbuilt. So when they went to traditional nacelles and engines the beefed up hull remained. So even into TNG era these old ships were uber tough even if outdated. The Lakota being able to take such a heavy battle with the Defiant really cemented that theory in my mind, the old bones of the ship were still strong enough for the upgrades.
Both the Lakota and Defiant were upgraded somewhat semi-legally, the latter with ablative armor and the former with quantum torpedos and stronger shields. It is like the best heavyweight fighting the best welterweight
Saw your guest spot on trekyards. Alot of times guests on the show seem a little awkward and uncomfortable but you did very well. Love to see you host Mr Foley.
Thanks for this Lore. The Excelsior has always been my favourite Starfleet design ever since my dad took me to see Star Trek III during it's original release. Looking forward to the beta canon episode on this ship...
The notion of the TNG-era Excelsior being a status symbol is an interesting one. The old-school ship of the line that was outdated but not entirely obsolete, but just wasn't something you'd send on long-term missions anymore now that better is available, becoming the "Admirals' Yachts" class. Whereas the Galaxy-Class Enterprise is the flagship, it still follows orders and has long-term missions. The Excelsior-Class "personal yachts of the admiralty" may well be assigned to a given Admiral to use as he sees fit, with the fig leaf of it being their transport and response vehicle, but really it's just "we remember what happened when we promoted Kirk away from a starship helm."
I'm sure somebody's already mentioned it, but I always liked the theory that the success of the transwarp experiment is the reason why TNG has a different warp scale.
One of the major reasons that Excelsiors (And Mirandas) are still in service in the 24th century, including Borg engagements, and the Dominion War, is the modular design. When refitting a Constitution, there is a huge undertaking with parts that are being built to fit that one ship, which is why after a major overhaul and one or two missions, the Enterprise was being decommissioned. The Miranda was the first major class to have modular parts, and the Excelsior was the second. Modular meaning replacing a warp drive was a simpler task. You remove the Mark V warp core and install a Mark VI warp core. You remove the Mark V nacelles and add Mark VI nacelles. Even the bridge module could be removed and replaced from basically a kit that came off assembly lines. This made it easier to build more of these classes, and made it much easier to get a damaged one back out in the field. Galaxy, Nebula, Akira, all had similar modular upgradeability, which basically is a whole new era for Starfleet. The Constitutions were flying fortresses of their day, and there is a certain romanticism of each ship, its joists, spars, and masts were each unique even to other ships of the same class, but it made it a much more grand spectacle to repair damaged systems and replace damaged parts. With the Mirandas and Excelsiors, you don't have to assume that the warp scale being used in Kirk's day were capable of keeping up with ships from Sisko's day, because they have had their warp drives and nacelles replaced and upgraded to keep the ships relevant to "present day" the whole 80 years they've been in service. No one ever said "Captain, the Potemkin is 20 years old, we feel her day is over" like they said about Enterprise, who had basically just undergone an almost keel-up refit. This instant-refit would include newer phaser banks, torpedoes, shield grids, and quarters.
This is my favorite Star Fleet vessel. I love the way the Excelsior looks. It just feels like it has a level of class that other SF ships just don't seem to have.
I watched a video recently where they cut a modern cruise ship in half and added an additional part in the middle to add more restaurants, cabins, lounges and a pool to increase profits. With that happening now in the 21st century, having refits of the scale mentioned to the Excelsior class being 'minor' in the 23rd century kinda makes sense.
Here's some food for thought: is there any explaination as to why there is a change to the warp scales between TOS and TNG? Here's a theory related to something you said about the Excel's transwarp. What if it did succeed, but it just made it move at a higher warp velocity? Warp 13+ in TOS scale. We see that there is a noticable change in technology from 1701 to 1701-A with the warp core (yes I know the movies had to use the same sets and all from TNG), but what if that wasn't the case? What if the change was because the transwarp drive succeed and let ships move much faster. Future warp drives would be much faster - Warp 30+. The change of the scaling system would have compensate for such speeds. So that what would be warp 30 would be the new Warp 3... etc... it would explain why TNG are thousands of times faster than TNG ships. The Excelsior's transwarp drive may have been a let down in ST3 but it did open the door for future warp drives to go far far faster.
Possibly it did indeed have to do with the transwarp tests. Also, warp factors in TNG seem based on a peak transition system, rather than linear (see the TNG Technical Manual)
The TOS scale is actually based on the cube of light speed. So Warp 1 is 1^2 = 1, Warp 2 is 2^3 = 8, Warp 3 is 3^3 = 27, Warp 4 is 4^3 = 64 and so on. With the TNG scale they changed it around (the actual "math" is somewhat complicated, but only an extrapolation from what the writers wrote on a napkin) The result is an enxponential scale with warp 10 = infinity
Original Excelsior class, for me, is the kind of ship i would like to command in the Federation Fleet. They may not be the strongest, but definetly the most beautiful.
About the constant presence of admirals on Excelsior class ships in TNG era, I, like usual, like to try to find reasoning for this that parallels the US Navy. In the US Navy, flagships and fleet command ships are usually large older ships (and usually not even front line warships) that have been modified to have increased command and control facilities as well as increased accommodations for the flag officers and their command staff. Given the probable size of the Federation fleet (I would suspect it to be 3 to 5 times larger than late WW2 era US navy in terms of total hulls available even if a large percent of them are older, smaller, less capable ships that have only a limited combat role), there would presumably be a LOT of fleet and squadron command ships carrying an assortment of admirals and squadron commodores / commanders. The now very old but still capable (and large and roomy and thus able to accept many modifications and upgrades) Excelsior class would seem to be a perfect fit for this role, freeing up the newer Ambassador and Galaxy classes for front line exploration and deterrence roles while being better fits for the needs of a command ship than the smaller classes like Miranda and New Orleans classes and retaining enough combat power to remain potent enough to deal with most threats it would be likely to face.
Indeed, it makes sense to have the admirals using an older (but still very proven and significant) ship while regular captains who are pushing the boundaries of Federation territory get given the top of the line ships.
It may also be a vanity thing, like Riker in All Good Things choosing the Enterprise-D which would've been quite antiquated by that point. Most TNG era Admirals would probably have served as Commanders and Captains on Exelsior class ships rising through the ranks so perhaps they preferred to stick with what they knew
@@andrewlowe693 I'm gonna take a leap here, and guess the Enterprise-D's accommodations would still make it feel like a luxury-liner with weapons after being refitted, even if the chassis was old. If I were Riker, I would pick that too. I don't think the Federation would revisit the Galaxy-class approach to ship design after waking up from their pacifist-hubris phase. Also, sorry for the necrothreading. (necrocommenting? 😐)
The Excelsior class has always berm my second favorite class of ship, the first being the Connie-refit. She s not only an original design, like the Miranda class was, but she hooks up well in a firefight. The 3rd class, for me anyways, would have to be the Ambassador class. She bridged the gap between Excelsior class and Galaxy class extremely well
Honestly, the Excelsior Class looks more like the missing link between the TOS and TNG era than the Ambassador does. Especially the engineering hull. The Ambassador looks like it's a step back.
Bill George, who designed and built most of the ships for ST:III, was really into Japanese designs at the time (1983-1984). The Excelsior was inspired by the question: What would the Enterprise have looked like if the Japanese had designed her? I have to say I like the result.
Mr Scott's guide to the star ship Enterprise and the corresponding TNG tech manual (can't seem to recall the proper title @ this post) has an explanation for saucer separation. Galaxy class was designed to dock autonomously. All other classes needed assistance from a space dock or shipyard to reattach the saucer to the secondary hull.
Great vids! I always assumed they carted admirals around in the Excelsior class because they were not being heavily used by TNG times... like a glorified transport ship that was safe enough to move high level people but that didn't interfere with more advanced assets on assignment. I like your take on it. Excelsior is definitely one of the most beautiful Trek designs. I love how they also used the exact same clip over and over with the Enterprise D and Hood in TNG lol.
For a long time, I've had it in my head canon that what we see on screen regarding the Excelsior and Miranda class is based not on what is most likely, but what the studios can afford to depict, and nothing more. Am I the only one who thinks that by the 3rd or 4th batch, Starfleet would probably start to build Excelsiors with more advanced components as the technology continues to advance, much like the older Constitution and Miranda class? Internally, we're talking about the more advanced LCARS by the last tranche, holodecks, and replicators. Externally, more advanced impulse drives, warp nacelles that share some characteristics with the Ambassador class line, different colored liveries consistent with the year they were launched, and of course, the more accurate phaser arrays. The nacelle pylons also might have aesthetic differences, somewhere in between the Excelsior, Probert's Version of the Ambassador, and a dash of proto-Galaxy. As cool as it might be to imagine, I do not see most of the older ships, such as the Excelsior receiving any upgrades that their systems are compatible with, unless they are due for a complete overhaul (and it might just be more economical to scrap them, and use the materials to replace them with either another Excelsior or Ambassador class. The only thing that would really stay consistent would be the keel/frame, which if I'm not mistaken is how warships are built in real life. Class members look mostly the same, but there will be differences, reflecting the needs of the time.
On saucer separation, in this era that was a one way trip. Explosive bolts and so on cut the saucer from the neck to serve as a very large escape pod in effect. One with power , weapons and shields to an extent. The only way to "re-dock" the saucer was in dry dock.
Wouldnt mind seeing more combat footage of the excelsior class, particularly if they make footage of it during the first 10-20 years after formal class acceptance to starfleet.
there's a TNG episode season 4 Episode 17 that has a Miranda class with a crew of 20 granted it was optimised for science and without the rollbar but given the increase of automation from then on I would not be surprised if the TNG-DS9 Miranda class optimised for combat had a crew of around 25-40 and the Excelsior probably had a crew around 150-200 which puts the casualty lists seen in DS9 into a much darker context
I remember props of the Phasers showed numbers on them for the Undiscovered Country somewhere, numbering to around 900 I think. The DS9 Tech Manual said 750 crew, I think?
My head cannon is that the saucer separation is used for refits and repairs. Instead of cutting the ship in half when the saucer section is destroyed you simply just separate the sections and put in a new saucer. Then they can fix the old saucer section with no need for extra ship downtime.
One of the interesting things that the game Starfleet Command brought up (which was an excellent upgrade of the 23rd Century Star Fleet Battles and should be on GOG if it isn't) is that one of the advantages of the Excelsior compared to the Akira or Nebula class is that they're shields aren't too whippy, but is build like a WWII battleship a massive hull/armor strength. Makes it a bit like US Naval ships. In WWII, ships are built with thick steel armor while the newer ships are built with kevlar plates and missiles that shoot down incoming fire. If you play keep-away, the newer ships are superior and will win, but put them next to each other and the Excelsiors would win a slobbernocker after taking down the newer ship's shields. And what if the Excelsior's transwarp drive was dividing line between the TOS Warp Scale and the TNG Warp Scale?
By the time of Wolf 359, the Excelsior class was 75 years old, yet still in service (due to tv production budgets no doubt). The Klingons also still used their D-7 Battle Cruiser Class, which was over 80 years old by the time of the attack on DS-9, during the Klingon-Cardasian War.
I love the excelsior refit (a la Enterprise-B and Lakota) I think it's fantastic looking and makes it look a lot better than the little (compared to the galaxy) unimpressive dark grey tugboat that we often saw on TNG in stock footage alongside Enterprise when it was basically being used for shuttle service for somebody important. I am surprised at the lack of information on it in cannon. But am glad that they kept the design alive all the way through the Domion war. And I think a testament to its sturdy design is the fact that we saw them ALL THE TIME in TNG as opposed to other classes like the Nebula, Oberth, Miranda, Ambassador, etc.
I like the original Excelsior. But the refit is a disaster. Why would you add two additional impulse engines, and vent the hot gasses directly onto the warp nacelles? Also, in later versions, the phaser were supposedly upgraded and more powerful, but the model retained TOS dual bubble emitters. How expensive would it have been to glue on phaser strips? I always thought that was kind of pathetic.
Excelsior looked fantastic in the theater when Star Trek 3 came out. Enterprise B being the actual Excelsior model with stuff added to it never looked thought out.
GReat video! This is one of my favourite starship designs. In regards to quarter size, I can believe that this class ship still had smaller quarters even in the TNG era. I always got the impression from TNG that the size and comfort of Galaxy Class quarters were not typical of the average Starfleet vessel. This is based solely on a few jokes throughout the show about how the Enterprise is a hotel or a luxury liner. I know Scotty made reference to this in 'relics' (in my day not even an admiral would have had quarters such as these!), and I think in the Pegasus episode where I believe Rikers old captain made a crack about him going soft on this luxury liner.
A lot of people say the Lakota was a match for the Defiant but she really wasn't. She launched a surprise attack against a reluctant enemy who did their best not to destroy her. And the Defiant still won and was able to proceed with her mission.
About the cabins I can only think about modernization. As example: The Constitution class at the time of Kirks 5 year mission had a crew of 400, The Intrepid is manned with around 150 but of similar size. Not only that, but around a quarter of the length of the Constitution is purely warp nacelles which makes the "usable" space of the Intrepid class even more clear. Also the Intrepid is bulkier with less empty space in it's design. I imagine over time the Exelsior class got upgrades and refits that reduced the needed crew complement which in turn allows more space for each searving aboard. It could be as simple as removing beds of multi quarters, or more complex like the Constitution refit. But time clearly allowed for more comfort on the ship.
Its a shame there isn't more Alpha canon on the Centaur Class with its clear Excelsior and Miranda inspirations was it suppose to replace or supplement the aging Miranda class?
Eh, the Centaur seems to be a budget Nebula. Like the shipyard found out they don't have parts for the stardrive section so they weld nacelles to saucer.
I remember before STAR TREK : THE NEXT GENERATION debuted a tv promo showed the NX 2000 USS EXCELSIOR CLASS ship leaving spacedock the voiceover said : " join an all new crew of the USS ENTERPRISE. on a mission to boldy go where no one has gone before " then the ship went to warp fan backlash was almost Immediately against the EXCELSIOR class ship as the new USS ENTERPRISE
The Excelsior when I first seen it in star trek III I didn't like the ship but now it is one of my favorite class of star trek ships. Its to bad that there is little canon on the ship (unless you count soft canon from books).
I think I should point out that the holographic tech in Discovery is *very* primitive. Unlike 24th century holograms, which use photons force-fields to create solid objects that are indistinguishable from the real thing. Whereas Discovery holograms are quite obviously just projected light. Also, the TNG-era holograms are stable, and capable of generating completely opaque objects; whereas the DIS holograms are largely monochromatic, translucent, and very unstable. And there's also the matter of bandwidth; a holographic data-stream is much bigger than a simple video-feed, meaning that it would require much more power for a ship to transmit a message across vast distances, much less maintain lag-free conversations. It's easy to imagine that such primitive and ugly holo-tech would be eventually retired from use for these reasons and more. By the late 24th-century, the tech is obviously making its return in an improved form.
Well, the novels do note that the holographic systems are massive data-hogs. And, it's pretty noticeable that DIS holograms are translucent and often have the apparent visual quality of a VHS tape. They flicker and distort, and glow pretty brightly. With these in mind, not only are the DIS holograms not really worth the effort, as anything they can do, a flat-display can do equally or better (without the monochromatic flickering); but they also would be highly distracting in situations where it was necessary for personnel to stay focused on their assigned console, as well as the fact that they would be uncomfortable to use in a relaxed situation compared to reading a book or using a PADD.
He and Dayton Ward are getting special access to the DIS writing team, and the show has already acknowledged the books. For example, the first book was written before filming began, and was recommended reading for the cast so they could find their characters. And the description of Burnham's family's fate was lifted directly from one of the books as well. And while the DIS writers have stated that, if necessary, they will contradict the books. So far, the books and comics are essentially canon.
Dude, yes, the sets for the Excelsior in VI were redressed Ent-A sets, but as far as the bridge goes, the Ent-A bridge set was not only mostly new having been built for STV, but had also been given an extensive makeover for VI. Also, there were added sections for the Excelsior redress, like the MSD at the rear. So no, it wasn't a brand new set, but they weren't exactly cheaping out on it either.
Excelsior class is one of the best looking ships in Starfleet. In terms of ships named Enterprise, my top rankings (of best looking): 1: Constitution-refit (NCC-1701-A) 2: NCC-1701-E 3: NCC-1701B, 4: NCC-1701 5:NCC-1701D 6: NCC-1701-C.
I think one of the biggest factors why the Excelsior survived to see serious action in the Dominion Wars and beyond is her design for transwarp travel...it was a very forward thinking vessel for the times produced in such large numbers. I just wish we could see more of her internally. Closest we get really is in Voyager Elite Forces 2.
Aside from lore and what's seen on screen, I've always wondered why the producers didn't continue to use the Constitution-class refit. Unlike TNG, they had the ability to pump out huge numbers of ships for filming. It also didn't seem like there wasn't a reason to use it during the Dominion War as we see a lot of older ships still in service. Even Geordi once stated, "just because something's old doesn't mean you throw it away" in reference to the Sydney-class USS Jenolan. He also said it could, "run circles around the Enterprise if it wasn't for all the structural damage." In Voyager, we see an old D7 battle cruiser nearly defeat a newer Intrepid-class and the K'Tinga was historically seen as the equivalent to the Constitution-class. So we could expect the Constitution-class to perform just as well in the war as the Excelsior or K'Tinga; maybe even better. We even see the USS Centaur, an older contemporary of the Excelsior taking on a Jem'Hadar fighter without fear. So, I'd like to know why the Constitution or Ambassador wasn't seen during the conflict with the Dominion. We even see Starfleet use the Oberth-class, a science vessel not suited for combat in two engagements with a Borg Cube.
those ships had major issues with the warp drive when the first ship was launched. Montgomery Scott was called to star fleet command and was heavily questioned about the engines of the Excelsior for weeks and then the ship was fixed thanks to his Knowles of warp engines.
The reason why we did not see a lot of saucer separations was because it would cost too much money... I mean it was intended for emergencies. The only reason why we saw it in TNG was because the producers wanted to show off... I mean it was due to the great threats presented by the Q, the Borg, and that planet of weapons.
In-universe, saucer separation turned out to be inexplicably useless during the Dominion War. Every time we see a Galaxy on the screen in those huge battles, it's connected. It's not like they gave up on the whole separation idea when they built the Promethus with its multi-vector assault mode, so that's a big technical foul up since they had switched to CGI models for those battle scenes.
I loved the Excelcior class from the first time I saw it. An interesting idea from FASA Trek was that translate actually became the standard by the time of TNG which explained why the warp factor changed from TOS to TNG
My Head cannon tells me that as the ships aged, Starfleet probably began assigning Excelsior classes to admirals as personal flagships because of the nature of being an admiral. Admirals don't explore, they don't do survey missions or relief aid, they don't run supplies, guard borders, etc. They don't leave the safety of the Federation. Those are the jobs of commanders and captains. Admirals coordinate fleets and do paperwork. Some probably got cushy starbases well within Federation borders. But others were given these older ships that could ferry them around at Warp 8 or something from one planet to another, or to deliver orders to captains and do ship inspections. So, get promoted to admiral, congrats, you get your own excelsior to do with what you want. Wanna jet over to Risa for a weekend? Go ahead. So what if it takes you an extra week to get somewhere, you mostly just sit at your desk anyway. Subspace conference calls happen at the same speed no matter if you're in an excelsior or a Sovereign. I bet alternate reality Riker also had an excelsior, and when they were going to mothball the Enterprise-D, he was like "Jackpot! I call dibs". But it also has it's drawbacks. Remember, both admirals that fought against the Borg during Wolf 359 and First Contact died, probably because they were "most likely" both using Excelsiors.
From the first time I saw an "Excelsior" class ship on screen I saw it as an interim design, a place holder of sorts until a much better design could be developed, built in numbers and placed into general service.
I’d always thought of the Miranda and excelsior we’re essentially the same ship. If they don’t need a long range/heavy cruiser and more of a short range transport/escort the don’t build the hull.Makes sense if you looking at it from a modular construction point of view
When I first seen the Excelsior inside the space station ready to chase down the Enterprise I thought she was going to replace the Enterprise. Dam good ship!
For me I always looked at Excelsior class as a whole as a retired ship class. Admirals only ones being able to pick what ship they fly on so you see a few in TNG.. But as ships in Starfleet mothball then started being pulled out and pressed back into service with upgraded weapons in the DS9 wars/conflicts. Kinda like the Iowa class Battlships getting another call to duty
I suppose the other possibility with transwarp is that although Excelsior had transwarp, the actual definition of the term changed as time progressed, not unlike how Pluto was demoted from being a planet because we changed the threshold.
More than likely, the fact that the Excelsiors were so big is probably why they stayed in service for so long: More room for upgrades and new technologies. The Mirandas are just so small and cheap to mass produce any upgrades to them will be minor at best, but Excelsiors are big heavy cruisers and thus have more options for refits and changes. And as you've observed, with the Khitomer Accords there weren't many peer adversaries the Federation needed to worry about in the Alpha and Beta quadrants. So having a large Excelsior fleet you kept upgraded and refit seemed sufficient for defending the Federation. By the time of the Dominion War of course, the Excelsior was not the first choice for a front line warship, even with the Lakota-style refit available. Sure, they're nothing to sneeze at but you will still lose more Excelsiors in battle against the Dominion than you will Akiras. However, scrapping and replacing them all would have deprived the Federation of a lot of combat platforms at a crucial time when they needed every hull possible. It's much like the situation in the US Air Force with the B-52 bomber: Yes, they are all getting very long in the tooth but to scrap them means you gut a core part of your bomber fleet. So you keep them going as long as possible. Same with the Excelsiors, though more than likely after the Dominion War they'll be replaced in the role of a heavy cruiser, support cruiser, explorer and other roles by the large crop of new classes Starfleet has built.
It’s interesting you mentioned the nostalgic factor, I never really considered it. But yeah, considering the luxurious quarters in ships like the Galaxy, the bunks in Excelsior class would probably updated to be larger private quarters. The updated technology would be more autonomous and require less personnel.
Excelsior’s refit looks so similar to the original excelsior because the studio didn’t have the budget to build a new class, but didn’t want to destroy the excelsior. So the put blisters on the sides along with more fins, this way they could do serious damage without hurting the main model.
In Star Trek, before the launch of the Galaxy Class, the "Cruiser" ships like the Constitution and Excelsior, and even the Ambassador Class, were Saucer Sep capable, but (This is unknown about the Ambassador Class, but the design suggests it's the same with her as well) could not utilize a Saucer Separation like the Galaxy Class because of the limits offered to Starfleet at the time, but it is suggested by Riker's ability to "Manually Dock" in Seasons One and Two of TNG (Encounter At Farpoint and The Icarus Factor) that prior to the Galaxy Class, a Starship, likely an Ambassador or Excelsior Class, were capable of Saucer Separation, but there was never a constant showing of the ships on screen to suggest that they did in fact use it like a Galaxy Class, but I'd say likely, you're looking at the same problems the Constitution Class suffered.... The old "You Need to return to Dry dock to re-integrate the Primary and Secondary Hull" issue, as stated in the TNG Technical Manual and other media, which means it's use is likely only to ensure the survival of the crew if at all possible... Saucer Sep never came up completely before TNG, though it is implied in TOS.... Though it was mentioned as a "Nacelle Jettison" in "The Apple" and "The Savage Curtain" it's highly implied that the Saucer could be separated as a "Lifeboat" for the Connie.... Also, Gene Roddenberry wanted originally to have just the Saucer destroyed in Star Trek III, and have a symbolic re-integration of the Secondary Hull with a new Saucer, symbolizing the reunion of the crew, and of Kirk and Spock.... Saucer Separation (Not Multi Vector, sorry Prometheus Fans) has been around since TOS, and artists such as Andrew Probert, and ship designers such as Matt Jeffries and Doug Drexler added designs to the ships to suggest it, as mainly a "Lifeboat" scenario, as stated before.... Though every starship looks to have a Nacelle AND Saucer Sep capability by their visual designs... Sorry for the Rambling, but it's EXTREMELY Early and I'm a sad individual who has watched and read WAY TOO MUCH Trek LMFAO!!!! (Really, no such thing lol) Also, you forgot the USS Okinawa, NCC-13958... Excelsior Class Starship that Leyton Commanded and Sisko served aboard prior to the Saratoga.... The Okinawa is arguably more canon than some of the Starships you mentioned prior, as it was officially mentioned in DS9 and Verified in the "Star Trek Encyclopedia) Sources: memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Saucer_separation memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/USS_Okinawa
There should have been more on DS9 besides USS Yamaguchi in Emissary. They decide to use horrible looking kitbashes instead. Maybe that's why I don't watch DS9 much!
The reason there are more Excelsiors than Ambassadors is because huge fleets of them were built early in the 24th century as part of a Romulan / Federation cold war arms race which ended in 2322. The Ambassador class was designed during peacetime and were neither warships nor were they produced in great numbers. The Federation was rapidly growing during this period so old ships such as the Excelsior were never phased out but were operated alongside the Ambassador class. The Excelsior also continued to see action in Cardassian border wars of the 2250s and 2260s where they proved to still be be a capable warship.
The real world explanation is when they first needed to show new ships, they didn't have money to build an Ambassador, so they used the existing Excelsior model.
IIRC "Transwarp" is not a specific thing, but a term that has meant several things, "Transwarp" in the context of the time of the Excelsior meant a warp drive that could jump from O to any warp number without having to go through them sequentially, in that sense "Transwarp" is a standard ability of pretty much every federation ship after this. Transwarp as in the episode of Voyager I won't name, is a different kind of "Transwarp".
With the refits being as easy as pie, according to star fleet anyways, I wonder if they used a modular build system. Like the way the Navy currently builds its ships. Would help explain why the ship designs where similar. Instead of just money issues. Just playing devil's advocate. lol. I know it's because the network is cheap.
Why reinvent the wheel when you don't have too. It's not like there's Atmospheric factors effecting flight... Plus you are probably correct in that the interior is completely modular. While at times wasteful pop and swap makes upgrades easier. Additionally, Lore Reloaded probably doesn't know that planes and helicopters today can go to depot to get their entire airframe zeroed out. That's why the B-52 will likely be in the US fleet for near a century. Hell the OH-58D had airframes from the original 1960's Alpha model.
+Daniel Schick also why most military vehicles see services that seem to go on forever when it was a good model(F-16 F-18 etc...) where as bad models(F-14) get rotated out fairly quickly
I had a whole long comment added to this video about modularity in designs. Basically the huge technological leap between Constitution and Excelsior (And Miranda) was the ability to upgrade and replace parts and systems built to fit in slots.
about the saucer-sep: the fact that most ships have it designed in some form indicates to me that it's an FAA/OSHA-mandated feature. ("Sorry, but unless you can evacuate from a core-breach in less than 10 minutes in at least 19 of the 20 scenarios just given, we can't certify this vessel as space-worthy")
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
The Galaxy class was the first to actually have a reintegration system so splitting the saucer off any of the older ships involved explosive bolts as an emergency measure, and a nightmare to put back together
You knock the "minor" refits but in truth the US Navy has been doing this for decades. They added a huge chunk to the Seawolf class fast attack nuclear sub USS Jimmy Carter , making it a hundred feet longer. Just how did they do it ? They built it as a module cut the sub and then added the new section and it welded it back together and connected everything together. As somebody who has worked in shipyards this is not uncommon practice. How do you think aircraft carriers are built ? They're built in huge modular chunks that get welded and bolted together. This is the same way they fix some ships after battle damage. They cut the bad section out and put it together with a new modular section it's not uncommon at all. Truthfully they started doing this stuff in World War II. Since they build these things in orbit , weight restrictions for building large modular pieces would be next to zero. Couple that with the amount of technology that's demonstrated in the Star Trek universe it is not at all unfeasible to be able to replace an entire engineering section or warp nacells or secondary hall or bridge module. Truthfully , I believe with their level of technology these things would be relatively easy . Especially if it's done in a modular fashion which it would most likely be. Think of it this way most things now are plug-and-play , so wouldn't you figure in the 23rd and 24th century and forward it would also be plug and play ? Or maybe even a easier version of plug and play . So think about it in a modular sense and the minor refits might be able to make a little more sense to you , even though some of them are still somewhat a little greater than minor. None-the-less unbolt unplug gouge out the welds , float the old one out float the new one in. Installation is exactly reverse of removal.
Dang you got us
It's probably easier for starfleet and their industrial replicators.
Most things.. wish my phone and laptop where modular.
Yup post war 1920-30s would see vast refits of UK and Italian and USN capital ships . Hell just look at the full rebuilt West Virginia 1944 she was basically a new battle ship. Yup your ship doesn’t have to modular to get a vast over haul. The West Virginia wasn’t the only USN BB to see that kind of rebuild the USS California the AZ exc. I can keep adding ships it isn’t hard
While all that is true, I don't think there has ever been a refit as extensive as the Enterprise-A. Not a single thing is the same and it can easily be seen as a completely new ship.
I always figured the Excelsior's Transwarp Drive was the thing that caused Starfleet to re-jigger the warp scale. That would make it the prototype engine upon which all future warp drives would be based, and why Starfleet stopped calling it "Transwarp" in favor of just the new "warp drive".
I like the idea. Something behind a "wall" in Kirks time might be usual in Picards.
The point about the redifined warp scale actually makes sense from a lore perspective. It answers why they got a completely different scale, and why they never mention that kind of transwarp again.
A pretty interesting visual thing to consider: Only from the TNG-era onward, the warp nacelles were actually "open" and showed blue plasma on the sides, as opposed to the closed nacelles on the Constitution and Excelsior (and related vessels). This would be consistent with a major re-design of the standard warp drive from lessons learned on the Excelsior class, and applied on its successor, the Ambassador class, first. Which means that all classes from the Ambassador up were fitted with a variant of the "transwarp" engine that was prototyped on the Excelsior.
I think the warp scale was actually adjusted due to Kirk’s Enterprise completely busting previous theories about just how fast a warp drive can go. In the same movie Excelsior and transwarp were introduced we are told that Enterprise held speed records that the Excelsior was supposed to break.
@@Shapes_Quality_Control Indeed also something like that would be kinda fitting in a sense as travel speeds in the whole show are in themselves based on the idea of breaking another wall at least from the perspective of the audience. Namely of course the breech of the light speed barrier also kinda makes sense making a whole new scale or at least reinventing one to describe velocities that go beyond what was once thought possible kinda like how we often use the mach scale to describe the velocity of supersonic aircraft though admittedly that is in part because crossing or even approaching the sound barrier introduces unique quirks to the operation that it makes sense to think in terms of that transition but there is of course nothing to say the same wouldn't be true for them. It's certainly shown that in real life exceeding certain thresholds of velocity in a given environments can indeed be much more than an incremental change in operational variables.
Thank you!! I have argued this very thing for years! Glad to know someone else had the brains to see this too. NOTHING canon ever said it was a failure, and Cpt .Scott sabotaged the engine on the Excelsior by removing a few parts that he hands to Dr. McCoy. Shortly thereafter, the warp scale changes... gee I wonder why?
The proliferation of the class makes sense canonically. Even in a world where money doesn't exist, resources demands still do. If you can build four Mirandas and two Excelsiors for the resource cost of one Galaxy, you build the older model ships, especially during a war scenario. Considering that canonically their systems were easily upgraded to be on par with modern ships and that they used "tried and true" ODN style systems it makes even more sense.
Actually resource demands are non existent in star trek. Only thing that is required is power. The reason that money isn't needed is because of replicators. since energy and matter are interchangeable in star trek they can convert any matter into energy then reform it back to whatever matter they need. this may have been true though pre tng since we dont see replicators before then.
Time was also a factor. During the Dominion war, the Allied powers couldn't build ships faster than the Dominion (In the Pale Moonlight). Moreover, some stuff couldn't be replicated like dilithum crystals and latinium. I think in Voyager they had to trade for parts all the time, so even the energy to run the replicators was finite. Parts were easier to make, but OP's point is still valid. Choose between building lots of frigates or some cruisers or one "heavy" cruiser.
@@ookla22000ify It is established that not everything can be replicated. Certain complicated components, and materials could not. For example, latinum became standard for powers that rejected the abandonment of capitalism, like the Ferengi, because it was unreplicatable. Also, there were acquisition waiting lists for many ship and station components as seen on DS9. But generally yes. Most matter and energy are interchangable
That moves the Galaxy class from primere explorer to a method of force projection, which makes sense.
It doesn't make sense in a war scenario at all. Old designs are never built during wars. If they need a cheaper vehicle or ship, they use a new design that is just smaller or cheaper. Assembly lines are very expensive and the assembly lines for anything that is several decades old were scapped and surplanted a long time ago. For example, the US still flies b-52s but they don't make any more of them. They just letting the existing stock die off and letting the fleet shrink.
WRT saucer separation, it's likely that earlier Starfleet ships were built with this capability, but it was intended for emergency purposes only, and that separation would leave the saucer section as basically just a giant lifeboat with minimal power. If the stardrive section was the lifeboat section, it would be able to get home, but the saucer would need rescuing.
With this theory, ships wouldn't be able to just reattach to their missing parts, it would be something that would need a dedicated repair crew or space station to accomplish. Therefore, it never happens onscreen.
The Galaxy class is likely the first ship capable of separating as a normal part of its functionality. Its size would help with this, as the saucer is large enough to accommodate a big enough reactor to make it a useful craft on its own.
This is pretty much confirmed in canon. Even the Constitution class could separate the saucer, and the blueprints even show 'feet' upon which the saucer can rest when disconnected from the secondary hull. However, it wasn't until the Galaxy class that such a separation could be reversed by the ship's crew themselves. Other ships would require a trip back to space dock for re-assembly.
I always figured that the late 2200s interpretation of "transwarp" pretty much implied a warp drive capable of TNG-scale speeds, unlike the "transwarp" as it was explained in Voyager.
Scotty's attempt at sabotage only delayed the introduction of that "transwarp" just enough to drive the plot.
This could be considered blasphemy but I like the Excelsior class more than the Constitution / Refit. It has no spindly neck and just looks like a tough sleek profile that is intimating and fast standing still. I don't get all the hate thrown at this ship, it is one of my favorite designs.
if only the saucer were larger
It has been my favorite Star Trek ship class since I first laid eyes on one.
I agree, I've always liked the Excelsior because before the Ambassador class was a thing it represented progress for the federation. It's design seemed like a fair nod to the design before and a proper foundation to the designs that came after.
Workhorse of Starfleet, 100 years and counting. Much better and more timeless design than the Connie.
The 'blocky' Neck and Struts kind of annoy me at the same time though.
I like the Excelsior. It seems to me that this ship became the backbone of Starfleet during the 78 year gap between Kirk's "death" on the Enterprise B and the TNG premiere.
I love the Excelsior. I like to think that it was so popular that they made a further upgrade with slipstream drive FTL and quantum torpedo launchers.
It would have been nice to have seen a series, using the Excelsior Class.
If it’s still a top of the line ship 80 years later then it was well built
The Federation got their "monies" worth from that ship - just like CBS did.
Think about it, all the resources that Starfleet put into building Excelsior class ships paid off handsomely - a service life of at least 80 years and still being able to be put into front line service, after a upgrade, for a fight to save the Alpha Quadrant.
In hindsight, as soon as the design was ready, every ship they built saved them from having to build multiple ships later and increased their overall fleet size.
Even if it took twice as much resources was a Constitution to build, that was still a bargain.
The most amortized ship in Starfleet history in terms of performance, the Miranda does have a longer service life, but not as a frontline _capable_ ship.
@@ShouldHaventJoined I must have read your mind. Apologies.
ship about the Excelsior, out on a Tuesday. This pleases me.
what are your thoughts on the jj vengeance being that timelines version of the excelsior even thou it seems to have more in common with the federation dreadnaught vessel star empire?
The Vengeance was developed twenty years before the prime Excelsior. I think it's more probable that both vessels drew inspiration from the Constitution-class. Which makes sense since the Enterprise is the flagship in both timelines.
@Lore Reloaded
A personal theory I had in regards to the Transwarp Drive as to why we never really hear much about it in regards why it was not continued or even for that matter pursued for a good while.
The theory?
Because of the actions of "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock", canon wise the Excelsior Class Starship was seen as the rather pride of the Federation, very much similar to how the HMS Titanic, and many others of White Star Lines were all seen as the newest and latest ship of the line. So when Scotty basically "stripped" major components to get the Transwarp Drive to malfunction or in this case, "hacked" this became an embarrassment for the Federation. Keep in mind that the tension of the Klingons and the Federation including with the events of Genesis was at an all time high.
So with that being the reason the Federation would want to promote the Excelsior and it's Transwarp Drive as the most advanced and technological achievement for both the Federation, the Construction Yards that build the Excelsior Class, and Star Fleet as well.
In other words...it was a political propaganda promotion to demonstrate the pride of Starfleet, and well when the Excelsior failed to achieve Transwarp Drive due to one Scotty's tinkering?
The Federation saw this as both a potential hazard that could be exploited SHOULD other factions find out, AND also the fact that everyone at Earth Space Dock witnessed the failure of the Transwarp Drive a potential PR nightmare both for Starfleet and the Federation.
Very similar to flaws in say the history of the US military like say the Osprey crash, that caused some to question in Congress funding for the Marine Osprey program, or the concerns of the F-35 Lightning II, or even the AH-66 Comanche when concerns of the ordinance couldn't fit into it's internal pod bay.
Just like then? I'm sure Starfleet and the Federation use media to help promote awareness and pride for their programs and well if other factions basically, "rivals" caught wind of this? Like Genesis again! Would put Starfleet and the Federation in a political hot seat, and finally bring their integrity and the trust in their starships called to question. Both by Starfleet, the Federation, and finally the people living IN the Federation as well.
Keep in mind the Federation is an organization of "multiple" races or species all working to a common goal. Not something say like the Klingon Empire, or the Romulan Star Empire that is dominated by the major races of their selective factions.
So if the people of the Federation caught wind of this? Imagine how many worlds might question the integrity of the Federation could provide them with either the protection, aid, and so on if their starships couldn't work.
Which canon wise? I believe for a good why Transwarp Drive was dropped as both Public Relations, Political, and finally Propaganda reasons.
We could say that not only the upgrades came on tuesday.
@MGaz
Well your argument is on the basis of course of writing and production as well. While indeed valid the premise of what I am relating is how the Star Trek Universe relates from the fictional side to the real world as well.
The issue of course is the concern of the Excelsior Class, and also the fact of it's Transwarp Drive.
First lets look at the writers premise regarding the Excelsior Class and Transwarp Drive.
When we look at the Excelsior it was the Ship of the Line, the next be duke a roo to take the Enterprise aka Constitution Refit's place. Aka the new kid on the block!
So when the movie from Star Trek III the Search for Spock takes place to keep Genesis under wraps what does Star Fleet plan to do? Decommission the Enterprise! That's a reality in this world even if you look at the US Navy and have companies like Northrop Grumman have projects and bids invested into for projects and contracts come into play if you have a rival company competing what does that company do?
Political Intrigue that's what they do!
It's fact, look it up, read upon it. I'm from Hampton Roads, VA aka 757 so I think my fellow neighbors know what I am relating to here. Deal with it! LOLZ!
Now you go ahead with the lack of logic or grammar and note dozens of times the "writers" per say ignore things about warp drive and continuity.
Fact, it's Science Fiction!
So lets debunk a few things.
First writers ignored warp travel...actually they didn't the principle of creating a bubble around an object and folding space between two points which to that issue for instance thus causing that object to travel between two points is in fact "Warp Travel".
The simple issue of course is how quickly could it be done. It's like the same principle of the Transporter, essentially your body is broken down into a form of molecular data, stored, then downloaded or in this case "transported" via through a data streaming method and reconstituted on another transporter.
Just instead of creating a bubble and folding two points for a shorter distance to travel? It's actually instead broken down, simplified into data form and finally transferred or transported to another point.
Now you argue that the writers of Voyager "ignored" Enterprise. Heads up: Voyager came out BEFORE the show Star Trek Enterprise, in fact Star Trek Enterprise was the last show still owned by Paramount to be broadcasted before the Writers Strike, and also the Viacom split.
#KnowYourShit !
Now regarding the logic on the Enterprise Refit, and also the Klingon Bird of Prey.
First off there is more than once the Enterprise risked going through the Galactic Barrier.
TOS episodes:
TOS: "By Any Other Name"
&
TOS: "Is There In Truth No Beauty"
Just to name a few so to state that the USS Enterprise could not penetrate the Galactic Barrier and reach the center of the Galaxy is laughable. Next lets talk the Klingons...
As shown in Star Trek: Enterprise it is shown that Klingon starships are in fact made to be durable, WTF would you think even AFTER Star Trek III they would still use the Bird of Prey on into TNGs/DS9 K'vort Class Bird of Prey well into the 24th century? Simple!
It works that's why. Now if your remember in Enterprise a Raptor Class was hiding out in an area of the sun enduring. And if the Bird of Prey can survive due to precise calculations to achieve Time Warp? Keep in mind with computer and console modifications to make it compatible for the Enterprise crew to read?
Then it is safe to assume as well that in fact a Bird of Prey could reach the center of the galaxy as well. With the right calculations, and planned route.
Very similar to how a spacecraft making reentry needs to calculate trajectory.
#AgainKnowYourShit !
PS: William Shatner ALSO directed Star Trek V...so yeah, might want to duece on the Shatner himself for that one LOLZ!
Finally lets talk Voyager, and taking a LONG time to get back home!
First "Voyager" being an Intrepid Class frigate was assigned in the Alpha Quadrant to pursue Marque members for apprehension in the Badlands. Remember Tuvok? Oh yes, he's an Intelligence Agent infiltrating the Marque for Janeway. Now what happened?
The Caretaker an entity yanked Voyager and the remaining Marque members being Chakotay, Torres and others into the Delta Quadrant much like how Q took the Galaxy Class Enterprise and thrust them a great distance away to intercept the Borg.
The only difference here was...the Caretaker was dieing and needed someone to take his place! Sad to say that's like taking a US Navy Destroyer and hurling it all the way to the Black Sea, and expect it to make it home the next day back to port in Newport News. MY GOD YOUR LOGIC IS FUCKING BRILLIANT!
Voyager was too far away to make it back so easily, still had a mission after consolidating the surviving Marque members to be absorbed into it's crew to survive, map the Delta Quadrant, learn to get along, and finally my god SO many fans forget this...
"Have TONS of obstacles ranging from civilizations, to the BORG, KAZON, SPECIES 8472, AND FINALLY THE VOTH TO DEAL WITH!
So that and storytelling because we are talking about a TV Show here what in the world is the journey of Voyager paralleling here folks?
Homer's The Odyssey! OMFG MGaz your logic is so illogical it's FUCKING BRILLIANT!
Take a road trip, oh a week, or a month, plan point A to point B and SEE if you make it there on time due to unforeseen circumstances? I should know because back in 1994, my mother, father, me travelled across country in a Class C Holiday Rambler to Albany, Oregon to go to my brother's graduation and guess what?
WE WERE LUCKY TO MAKE IT ON TIME!
#StrikeThreeKnowYourShit ! #YourOut !
Oh I'm sorry was your lack of typing, computation, and even grasp of the English language too much for you to handle? Shhh put my barrel in your mouth and suck it, let it BLOW your mind! LOLZ!
For a federation of so many species they certainly have a really high percentage of human centric ship names
I recall in another episode there was the suggestion that Starfleet vessels tend to be vastly one species. So there are Vulcan, Andorian, and Tellarite crewed ships out there with their names, climate adjusted, and predominantly crewed.
... At least that explains why even centuries into the Federation that Starfleet seems to have less than 1% of the crew on the ships we see being aliens.
maclennanld. Starfleet is a human organization by and large and predates the federation. In most cases alien membership is relatively low because relatively few want to join. I mean it was nearly a century before the first Vulcan joined and they were a founding member!
No, whats REALLY odd is that defending federation space and people seems to be entirely up to starfleet... where are the Andorian Vulcan and 100+ other races with their fleets when the Borg come knocking? Or when Klingons get rowdy? Did they just opt out of the Dominion war all together?? Seems like the humans are getting shafted in this deal! Starting to empathise with the terra first crowd!
As noted in DS9 when a planet became part of the federation its military assets were absorbed into starfleet. Again as noted by a Vulcan in the 22nd century, humanity was advancing at a rate never seen before by other races. Thus it makes sense that when the Federation is formed that starfleet become the main military arm of the Federation and all others be absorbed into it creating true unity.
Out of universe, that's simply for make-up budget reasons. That why we see more non-human officers on Discovery and in the movies in general. Another thing to point out, I'm pretty sure it's canon that the Federation counts a number of non-oxygen breathing species among its number. Diamanda Hagan did a great video about this where she suggested that in a lot of those cases it's just easier for members of those species to get their own ships where the whole atmosphere is [insert non-oxygen gas here] than to try and outfit them with special gear to interact with oxygen breathers every time they leave their quarters (their quarters of course having independent life-support systems). I kinda hope Discovery runs with that idea and actually has them meet a Starfleet ship crewed by methane breathers. That'd make for an interesting episode.
True, but I just felt like pointing out that I don't remember one alien crewed ship with an alien inspired name of federation design in the shows. It definitely gives the impression that humans far out number any other species. It would of been a nice touch if some of the other ships featured in the show had an alien name and alien Captain, by TNG the tellerites should of had built a few federation standard ships. Star wars explained their disparity by having the humans being by far the most populated, outnumbering the next five most populated species combined.
I remember there being one species transported in an environmental suit which couldn't serve alongside humanity on the same ship. Out of 180+ species many likely breathed other gases or needed widely different concentrations of oxygen then humans required.
Love the Excelsior to death, both in design and concept. She had a long service life and was a damn fine and reliable ship.
It was VERY painful seeing Excelsior class vessel Melbourne's primary hull get decimated (DAMN!!!) in the battle of Wolf 359 against the Borg.
Your little sarcastic rants are the best part of these videos.
Love the sarcastic breakaways to talk about out of universe related studio topics! :D
I love them. Sets him apart from other channels that discuss similar content.
I find them the worst. Not to mention that they feel forced.
Apart from the money talk, that was funny.
Agreed, it's a personal touch
honorable mention We also get to see the Enterprise Bs Sister ship take on the defiant as well known as the USS Lakota which was also an Excelsior Refit.
I always found the Excelsior class beautiful, in fact in STO, I have an Enterprise B variant as my main ship.
spiritofthewolf15x ohhhhhhh I'm jelly.. what class is she? Cruiser? Escort? It's much better than my promithious
I play her as a tac cruiser, "taste the rainbow" as it were.
well i meant what is she under in space doc but i can find it when i return to the game
I have the fleet version. I use all refit parts except the neck. I like using the resolute neck.
I always found it hideous.
Constitution Class might be the most celebrated design, but all signs in the known lore really point to the Excelsior Class being Starfleet's most successful design. I think it's one of the great, untold stories of Star Trek because there's that enormous period of time between the original era, and the TNG era, and a large portion of it had the Excelsior class remain the Federations' flagship class for a generation. In a lot of ways too, the Excelsior was the revolutionary gateway chassis bridge between the TOS era ships and the TNG era ships.
And even if, no fun allowed explanation is because of budgetary reasons, nonetheless I kind of like that about it. Designs that last decades are just so much more interesting. Like, even in the era of the Sovereign and a bit beyond...the Excelsior basic design is just so solid and good that it almost transcends technological progression. Like, they could even in the 25the century build a new set of "Excelsior Mk-II" ships that just slightly update the basic design of the chassis, fill it with cutting edge technology, and it'd still have its place. I love that idea, especially if it were potentially an accident. Like, they made a chassis to test Transwarp drive, which didn't work...but they accidentally stumbled on potentially the most successful chassis design in Starfleet's history.
Your comment aged well, we witness the new Excelsior II in ST: Picard. 🖖🏻
"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon."
- Montgomery Scott
Indeed
(A casual viewer's Opinion) The Excelsior became more of a "decorative sword" for Admirals. Basically take an aging "heavy cruiser" and keep it up to par but not much else. Can take a beating if needed, but ultimately acts as a command center ship, coordinating the fleet & if needed, act as a Heavy reserve. It makes sense to retrofit & reuse large vessels since it would compensate for the longer production/deployment time when initially produced.
In TNG I saw the Excelsiors less as a status symbol, and more of a second line ship that they could safely put a flag officer to shuttle around in.
Exactly. It's behind any front lines but if it runs into trouble it's likely going to be ok
It's almost like Paramount/CBS wants Star Trek to die. Between the laughably low budgets, the questionable show running and the CBS No-Access pay wall, the only reason Star Trek still exists is because people love(ed) the universe enough to continue watching and paying more for declining returns.
They keep trying to break out of their niche and into the mass market. For these studio execs it's not enough to have a thriving hardcore fanbase, they want it all. They want the non-trekkie masses to buy McDonald's cups with Kirk and Bones on the side. They want movies that make 800 million dollars. They aren't happy with "just" a successful TV series. They have to have 2 or even 3 concurrent Trek series and use the brand to completely shoulder their streaming service. All this shit turns into mediocre films made to please everyone (read: bland action blockbusters), over saturation of the brand in the TV market in the 90s and now unrealistic expectations for it on a streaming service nobody wants (along with the same problem of trying to appeal to more than just the "core" market, gaining few new fans but alienating many of the old ones). Eh, I'm happy there's any sort of Trek coming out these days, but this shit could be handled so much better if it was in the hands of people who gave a damn.
No access? Dude wait to the end of the season, give them 10 bucks watch all the episodes and then unsubscribe. You aren’t paying for cable here, you aren’t locked in.
Paramount had been bitter at Star Trek ever since The Motion Picture failed to be 2001 meets Close Encounters meets Star Wars
Just pirate it, simple and free.
@MGazT don't hate the player hate the game
The Excelsior was ahead of it's time. Allot of experimental technology was put into it. It was better than the Constitution in every way. Speed, maneuverability, structurally, sensors, weapons, shielding. And was more than a match for anything the Klingons or Romulans had at the time. The ship was so good that construction of it continued into the early part of the 24th century.
It still looked a bit off proportion. The saucer is so small...
@@HappyBeezerStudios
I think it looks so small because the rest of the ship looks thicker and more durable, with that super stocky neck that connects it to bottom half of the ship.
Unlike the constitution where the neck was super thin and looked like a single torpedo would lead to the saucer floating away.
Considering that the Lakota could go up against the Defiant just by modding it, it was a damn good design and probably the model for the Sovereign class.
@@HappyBeezerStudios It a out of shape mess of a ship.
Your opinion the constitution class is still legendary. Better sexy body not fat and out off shape the Excelsior class.
The Excelsior is an interesting ship in canon imo because it was obviously a huge step up from previous ships and apparently became ubiquitous over the 80+ years it saw service as a prestigious vessel. Yet practically nothing visually pioneered by this design seemed to influence later ships. Besides a few kitbashes that we might assume are just the odd development mule since we see them once or twice at most what did later ships acrually take from the design?
The next heavy, the Ambassador looks like a direct link between the Connie refit and the Galaxy. Was the Ambassador a retro design?
The Miranda by comparison seemed to have spawned several related classes of ship and design elements are seen throughout trekdom.
The original Ambassador class existed only as a drawing by Andrew Probert and a half-model prop. It looked like a middle ground between the Excelsior and Galaxy classes.
When it came to seeing it on air though, the model makers only had two days to build it. Getting the sleek lines right would have taken months so they reverted to using simple circular shapes, leaving us with the Ambassador we know.
I like to headcanon that the Excelsior was an outlier due to that transwarp drive.
Kirk Jacobson. Even Proberts version doesnt share a ton with the Excelsior. Its likely that he intended it to have similar detailing on the neck with the deep grooves, something hinted at on the canon model with simple coloring. Both versions have exposed elements on the top of the nacelles aimilar to the Excelsior.
Funny enough the canon version has similar struts that may be a through line from Excelsior to Galaxy but Proberts version doesnt! If anything they make me think 09 star trek Enterprise lol.
But much of whats unique about the Excelsior seems to have died off with that ship. The negative space at the bottom of the ship by the cove is something I always liked, the flat top of the secondary hull seems very naval and is unique among star trek ships. I always thought it may have been an open deck space under a containment field where you might conduct flight ops like a sea based carrier.
Oh, and the first time I saw the E in the theater I honestly thought it was some sort of super advanced Excelsior type ship lol, I still see it as a spiritual successor to the ship. Both were movie specific expensive builds and canon wise both seemed to represent Starfleet getting its shit together as a military power.
Mike DeMarco no companies as there’s no economy, thank god
BattlestarZenobia. Yes, there are "companies" we know this for a fact.
DrewLSsix yea of course there are companies not paid I guess but what does Picard’s family run a vineyard for or Sisko’s dad runs a restaurant. These are usually incorporated.
I don't think this is Canon, but seriously with Discovery what's Canon anymore..... ANYWAYS from all the fan material and on screen evidence, one reason the Excelsiors endured was due to their overbuild hulls. The Theory goes that due to the initial prototype being designed for Trans Warp, the hulls were literally overbuilt. So when they went to traditional nacelles and engines the beefed up hull remained. So even into TNG era these old ships were uber tough even if outdated. The Lakota being able to take such a heavy battle with the Defiant really cemented that theory in my mind, the old bones of the ship were still strong enough for the upgrades.
Both the Lakota and Defiant were upgraded somewhat semi-legally, the latter with ablative armor and the former with quantum torpedos and stronger shields. It is like the best heavyweight fighting the best welterweight
Saw your guest spot on trekyards. Alot of times guests on the show seem a little awkward and uncomfortable but you did very well.
Love to see you host Mr Foley.
Thanks for this Lore. The Excelsior has always been my favourite Starfleet design ever since my dad took me to see Star Trek III during it's original release.
Looking forward to the beta canon episode on this ship...
The notion of the TNG-era Excelsior being a status symbol is an interesting one. The old-school ship of the line that was outdated but not entirely obsolete, but just wasn't something you'd send on long-term missions anymore now that better is available, becoming the "Admirals' Yachts" class. Whereas the Galaxy-Class Enterprise is the flagship, it still follows orders and has long-term missions. The Excelsior-Class "personal yachts of the admiralty" may well be assigned to a given Admiral to use as he sees fit, with the fig leaf of it being their transport and response vehicle, but really it's just "we remember what happened when we promoted Kirk away from a starship helm."
I'm sure somebody's already mentioned it, but I always liked the theory that the success of the transwarp experiment is the reason why TNG has a different warp scale.
One of the major reasons that Excelsiors (And Mirandas) are still in service in the 24th century, including Borg engagements, and the Dominion War, is the modular design.
When refitting a Constitution, there is a huge undertaking with parts that are being built to fit that one ship, which is why after a major overhaul and one or two missions, the Enterprise was being decommissioned. The Miranda was the first major class to have modular parts, and the Excelsior was the second. Modular meaning replacing a warp drive was a simpler task. You remove the Mark V warp core and install a Mark VI warp core. You remove the Mark V nacelles and add Mark VI nacelles. Even the bridge module could be removed and replaced from basically a kit that came off assembly lines.
This made it easier to build more of these classes, and made it much easier to get a damaged one back out in the field. Galaxy, Nebula, Akira, all had similar modular upgradeability, which basically is a whole new era for Starfleet. The Constitutions were flying fortresses of their day, and there is a certain romanticism of each ship, its joists, spars, and masts were each unique even to other ships of the same class, but it made it a much more grand spectacle to repair damaged systems and replace damaged parts. With the Mirandas and Excelsiors, you don't have to assume that the warp scale being used in Kirk's day were capable of keeping up with ships from Sisko's day, because they have had their warp drives and nacelles replaced and upgraded to keep the ships relevant to "present day" the whole 80 years they've been in service. No one ever said "Captain, the Potemkin is 20 years old, we feel her day is over" like they said about Enterprise, who had basically just undergone an almost keel-up refit. This instant-refit would include newer phaser banks, torpedoes, shield grids, and quarters.
Great info. Modular is just the way to go really. Especially when it comes to fleets of ships.
Unless the Miranda itself sprang from a refitted design...
The excelsior a ship that is an improvement on all facets of the Connie.
"They never detach the saucer on screen " *watches the first riker episode of TNG where he does a manual reattachment with impulse engines*
Or an excelsior class? Jesus Christ.. share that time stamp.. that sounds awesome!!!
This is my favorite Star Fleet vessel. I love the way the Excelsior looks. It just feels like it has a level of class that other SF ships just don't seem to have.
I like your sense of humor, Lore Reloaded. It is rather savage and that pleases me.
I watched a video recently where they cut a modern cruise ship in half and added an additional part in the middle to add more restaurants, cabins, lounges and a pool to increase profits. With that happening now in the 21st century, having refits of the scale mentioned to the Excelsior class being 'minor' in the 23rd century kinda makes sense.
Here's some food for thought: is there any explaination as to why there is a change to the warp scales between TOS and TNG?
Here's a theory related to something you said about the Excel's transwarp. What if it did succeed, but it just made it move at a higher warp velocity? Warp 13+ in TOS scale. We see that there is a noticable change in technology from 1701 to 1701-A with the warp core (yes I know the movies had to use the same sets and all from TNG), but what if that wasn't the case?
What if the change was because the transwarp drive succeed and let ships move much faster. Future warp drives would be much faster - Warp 30+. The change of the scaling system would have compensate for such speeds. So that what would be warp 30 would be the new Warp 3... etc... it would explain why TNG are thousands of times faster than TNG ships.
The Excelsior's transwarp drive may have been a let down in ST3 but it did open the door for future warp drives to go far far faster.
Possibly it did indeed have to do with the transwarp tests. Also, warp factors in TNG seem based on a peak transition system, rather than linear (see the TNG Technical Manual)
The TOS scale is actually based on the cube of light speed. So Warp 1 is 1^2 = 1, Warp 2 is 2^3 = 8, Warp 3 is 3^3 = 27, Warp 4 is 4^3 = 64 and so on.
With the TNG scale they changed it around (the actual "math" is somewhat complicated, but only an extrapolation from what the writers wrote on a napkin) The result is an enxponential scale with warp 10 = infinity
Original Excelsior class, for me, is the kind of ship i would like to command in the Federation Fleet. They may not be the strongest, but definetly the most beautiful.
About the constant presence of admirals on Excelsior class ships in TNG era, I, like usual, like to try to find reasoning for this that parallels the US Navy. In the US Navy, flagships and fleet command ships are usually large older ships (and usually not even front line warships) that have been modified to have increased command and control facilities as well as increased accommodations for the flag officers and their command staff. Given the probable size of the Federation fleet (I would suspect it to be 3 to 5 times larger than late WW2 era US navy in terms of total hulls available even if a large percent of them are older, smaller, less capable ships that have only a limited combat role), there would presumably be a LOT of fleet and squadron command ships carrying an assortment of admirals and squadron commodores / commanders. The now very old but still capable (and large and roomy and thus able to accept many modifications and upgrades) Excelsior class would seem to be a perfect fit for this role, freeing up the newer Ambassador and Galaxy classes for front line exploration and deterrence roles while being better fits for the needs of a command ship than the smaller classes like Miranda and New Orleans classes and retaining enough combat power to remain potent enough to deal with most threats it would be likely to face.
Indeed, it makes sense to have the admirals using an older (but still very proven and significant) ship while regular captains who are pushing the boundaries of Federation territory get given the top of the line ships.
It may also be a vanity thing, like Riker in All Good Things choosing the Enterprise-D which would've been quite antiquated by that point. Most TNG era Admirals would probably have served as Commanders and Captains on Exelsior class ships rising through the ranks so perhaps they preferred to stick with what they knew
@@andrewlowe693 I'm gonna take a leap here, and guess the Enterprise-D's accommodations would still make it feel like a luxury-liner with weapons after being refitted, even if the chassis was old. If I were Riker, I would pick that too. I don't think the Federation would revisit the Galaxy-class approach to ship design after waking up from their pacifist-hubris phase.
Also, sorry for the necrothreading. (necrocommenting? 😐)
One of my all-time favorite starship designs. Excelsior-class is the s**t AND the flush. Keep up the great work!
The Excelsior class has always berm my second favorite class of ship, the first being the Connie-refit. She s not only an original design, like the Miranda class was, but she hooks up well in a firefight. The 3rd class, for me anyways, would have to be the Ambassador class. She bridged the gap between Excelsior class and Galaxy class extremely well
Found your channel via your recent Trekyards Voyager video, I like your content mate keep it up
"That bucket of bolts" quote is the main thing I remember about that ship as a kid
Honestly, the Excelsior Class looks more like the missing link between the TOS and TNG era than the Ambassador does. Especially the engineering hull.
The Ambassador looks like it's a step back.
The original version of the Ambassador concept would have been more curved originally.
Excellent video and it reminded me that I actually have the excelsior blueprints !.....
Aaah the nostalgia !
Bill George, who designed and built most of the ships for ST:III, was really into Japanese designs at the time (1983-1984). The Excelsior was inspired by the question: What would the Enterprise have looked like if the Japanese had designed her? I have to say I like the result.
Bill George Excelsior is the greatest DARE TO BE DIFFERENT Federation starship design since Matt Jefferies original concept.
It was the high point of Star Trek III for sure. When it tried to chase the Enterprise.
Chang!
I am as constant as the Northern star!
birdoprey5
@@BirdOPrey5 i'd give real money if he'd shut up
@@SantomPh 😊
Such a beautiful vessel from the TMP era 😊
agreed
I do generally like it. The Enterprise-B is a bit too 'busy' with new details and curves though.
Dude, your little side rants always get me.
Mr Scott's guide to the star ship Enterprise and the corresponding TNG tech manual (can't seem to recall the proper title @ this post) has an explanation for saucer separation. Galaxy class was designed to dock autonomously. All other classes needed assistance from a space dock or shipyard to reattach the saucer to the secondary hull.
Great vids! I always assumed they carted admirals around in the Excelsior class because they were not being heavily used by TNG times... like a glorified transport ship that was safe enough to move high level people but that didn't interfere with more advanced assets on assignment. I like your take on it. Excelsior is definitely one of the most beautiful Trek designs. I love how they also used the exact same clip over and over with the Enterprise D and Hood in TNG lol.
For a long time, I've had it in my head canon that what we see on screen regarding the Excelsior and Miranda class is based not on what is most likely, but what the studios can afford to depict, and nothing more.
Am I the only one who thinks that by the 3rd or 4th batch, Starfleet would probably start to build Excelsiors with more advanced components as the technology continues to advance, much like the older Constitution and Miranda class?
Internally, we're talking about the more advanced LCARS by the last tranche, holodecks, and replicators. Externally, more advanced impulse drives, warp nacelles that share some characteristics with the Ambassador class line, different colored liveries consistent with the year they were launched, and of course, the more accurate phaser arrays. The nacelle pylons also might have aesthetic differences, somewhere in between the Excelsior, Probert's Version of the Ambassador, and a dash of proto-Galaxy. As cool as it might be to imagine, I do not see most of the older ships, such as the Excelsior receiving any upgrades that their systems are compatible with, unless they are due for a complete overhaul (and it might just be more economical to scrap them, and use the materials to replace them with either another Excelsior or Ambassador class.
The only thing that would really stay consistent would be the keel/frame, which if I'm not mistaken is how warships are built in real life. Class members look mostly the same, but there will be differences, reflecting the needs of the time.
On saucer separation, in this era that was a one way trip. Explosive bolts and so on cut the saucer from the neck to serve as a very large escape pod in effect. One with power , weapons and shields to an extent. The only way to "re-dock" the saucer was in dry dock.
"uss malinche, I bet a couple of you guys didn't think I'd be able to say that" proceeds to immediately pronounce Melbourne wrong. gotta love lore.
Wouldnt mind seeing more combat footage of the excelsior class, particularly if they make footage of it during the first 10-20 years after formal class acceptance to starfleet.
Given the jump in tech from TOS to TNG I wouldn't be surprised if the crew compliment wasn't halved or more as automation advanced
Yea.. especially during the dominion war where they started to become more reliant on computers
there's a TNG episode season 4 Episode 17 that has a Miranda class with a crew of 20 granted it was optimised for science and without the rollbar but given the increase of automation from then on I would not be surprised if the TNG-DS9 Miranda class optimised for combat had a crew of around 25-40 and the Excelsior probably had a crew around 150-200 which puts the casualty lists seen in DS9 into a much darker context
I remember props of the Phasers showed numbers on them for the Undiscovered Country somewhere, numbering to around 900 I think. The DS9 Tech Manual said 750 crew, I think?
My head cannon is that the saucer separation is used for refits and repairs. Instead of cutting the ship in half when the saucer section is destroyed you simply just separate the sections and put in a new saucer. Then they can fix the old saucer section with no need for extra ship downtime.
One of the interesting things that the game Starfleet Command brought up (which was an excellent upgrade of the 23rd Century Star Fleet Battles and should be on GOG if it isn't) is that one of the advantages of the Excelsior compared to the Akira or Nebula class is that they're shields aren't too whippy, but is build like a WWII battleship a massive hull/armor strength. Makes it a bit like US Naval ships. In WWII, ships are built with thick steel armor while the newer ships are built with kevlar plates and missiles that shoot down incoming fire. If you play keep-away, the newer ships are superior and will win, but put them next to each other and the Excelsiors would win a slobbernocker after taking down the newer ship's shields.
And what if the Excelsior's transwarp drive was dividing line between the TOS Warp Scale and the TNG Warp Scale?
The Excelsior class ship is one of the coolest looking Starfleet ships.
By the time of Wolf 359, the Excelsior class was 75 years old, yet still in service (due to tv production budgets no doubt). The Klingons also still used their D-7 Battle Cruiser Class, which was over 80 years old by the time of the attack on DS-9, during the Klingon-Cardasian War.
Outside of the shows the USS Dallas is the Excelsior class ship to be explored in 1st person via the game Elite Force II.
Really cool stuff!
I love the excelsior refit (a la Enterprise-B and Lakota) I think it's fantastic looking and makes it look a lot better than the little (compared to the galaxy) unimpressive dark grey tugboat that we often saw on TNG in stock footage alongside Enterprise when it was basically being used for shuttle service for somebody important.
I am surprised at the lack of information on it in cannon. But am glad that they kept the design alive all the way through the Domion war. And I think a testament to its sturdy design is the fact that we saw them ALL THE TIME in TNG as opposed to other classes like the Nebula, Oberth, Miranda, Ambassador, etc.
I like the original Excelsior. But the refit is a disaster. Why would you add two additional impulse engines, and vent the hot gasses directly onto the warp nacelles? Also, in later versions, the phaser were supposedly upgraded and more powerful, but the model retained TOS dual bubble emitters. How expensive would it have been to glue on phaser strips? I always thought that was kind of pathetic.
Excelsior looked fantastic in the theater when Star Trek 3 came out. Enterprise B being the actual Excelsior model with stuff added to it never looked thought out.
GReat video! This is one of my favourite starship designs. In regards to quarter size, I can believe that this class ship still had smaller quarters even in the TNG era. I always got the impression from TNG that the size and comfort of Galaxy Class quarters were not typical of the average Starfleet vessel. This is based solely on a few jokes throughout the show about how the Enterprise is a hotel or a luxury liner. I know Scotty made reference to this in 'relics' (in my day not even an admiral would have had quarters such as these!), and I think in the Pegasus episode where I believe Rikers old captain made a crack about him going soft on this luxury liner.
A lot of people say the Lakota was a match for the Defiant but she really wasn't. She launched a surprise attack against a reluctant enemy who did their best not to destroy her. And the Defiant still won and was able to proceed with her mission.
About the cabins I can only think about modernization.
As example: The Constitution class at the time of Kirks 5 year mission had a crew of 400, The Intrepid is manned with around 150 but of similar size. Not only that, but around a quarter of the length of the Constitution is purely warp nacelles which makes the "usable" space of the Intrepid class even more clear. Also the Intrepid is bulkier with less empty space in it's design.
I imagine over time the Exelsior class got upgrades and refits that reduced the needed crew complement which in turn allows more space for each searving aboard. It could be as simple as removing beds of multi quarters, or more complex like the Constitution refit. But time clearly allowed for more comfort on the ship.
That makes sense.
Its a shame there isn't more Alpha canon on the Centaur Class with its clear Excelsior and Miranda inspirations was it suppose to replace or supplement the aging Miranda class?
We know from the model designer, Adam Buckner, he actually intended to scale it to the bridge and rollbar, so the saucer is more of a coincidence.
I always feel the Saber is more of a replacement for the Miranda
Centaur is such and amazing looking ship, always wanted to see more of them
Eh, the Centaur seems to be a budget Nebula. Like the shipyard found out they don't have parts for the stardrive section so they weld nacelles to saucer.
I remember before
STAR TREK :
THE NEXT GENERATION
debuted
a tv promo showed the
NX 2000 USS EXCELSIOR
CLASS ship
leaving spacedock
the voiceover said :
" join an all new crew of the
USS ENTERPRISE.
on a mission to boldy go
where no one has gone before "
then the ship went to warp
fan backlash was almost
Immediately against the
EXCELSIOR class ship
as the new USS ENTERPRISE
During the Founder threat there was the Lakota refit where it was upgraded to Defiant level armaments including quantum torpedoes.
The Excelsior when I first seen it in star trek III I didn't like the ship but now it is one of my favorite class of star trek ships. Its to bad that there is little canon on the ship (unless you count soft canon from books).
I think I should point out that the holographic tech in Discovery is *very* primitive. Unlike 24th century holograms, which use photons force-fields to create solid objects that are indistinguishable from the real thing. Whereas Discovery holograms are quite obviously just projected light. Also, the TNG-era holograms are stable, and capable of generating completely opaque objects; whereas the DIS holograms are largely monochromatic, translucent, and very unstable. And there's also the matter of bandwidth; a holographic data-stream is much bigger than a simple video-feed, meaning that it would require much more power for a ship to transmit a message across vast distances, much less maintain lag-free conversations. It's easy to imagine that such primitive and ugly holo-tech would be eventually retired from use for these reasons and more.
By the late 24th-century, the tech is obviously making its return in an improved form.
...what's your source on that?
It looks primitive in the combat simulator, but the long-range communication version seems a little too complex for the time...
Well, the novels do note that the holographic systems are massive data-hogs. And, it's pretty noticeable that DIS holograms are translucent and often have the apparent visual quality of a VHS tape. They flicker and distort, and glow pretty brightly. With these in mind, not only are the DIS holograms not really worth the effort, as anything they can do, a flat-display can do equally or better (without the monochromatic flickering); but they also would be highly distracting in situations where it was necessary for personnel to stay focused on their assigned console, as well as the fact that they would be uncomfortable to use in a relaxed situation compared to reading a book or using a PADD.
Well, David Mack was certainly trying his best...
He and Dayton Ward are getting special access to the DIS writing team, and the show has already acknowledged the books. For example, the first book was written before filming began, and was recommended reading for the cast so they could find their characters. And the description of Burnham's family's fate was lifted directly from one of the books as well.
And while the DIS writers have stated that, if necessary, they will contradict the books. So far, the books and comics are essentially canon.
Dude, yes, the sets for the Excelsior in VI were redressed Ent-A sets, but as far as the bridge goes, the Ent-A bridge set was not only mostly new having been built for STV, but had also been given an extensive makeover for VI. Also, there were added sections for the Excelsior redress, like the MSD at the rear. So no, it wasn't a brand new set, but they weren't exactly cheaping out on it either.
Excelsior class is one of the best looking ships in Starfleet. In terms of ships named Enterprise, my top rankings (of best looking): 1: Constitution-refit (NCC-1701-A) 2: NCC-1701-E 3: NCC-1701B, 4: NCC-1701 5:NCC-1701D 6: NCC-1701-C.
I think one of the biggest factors why the Excelsior survived to see serious action in the Dominion Wars and beyond is her design for transwarp travel...it was a very forward thinking vessel for the times produced in such large numbers. I just wish we could see more of her internally. Closest we get really is in Voyager Elite Forces 2.
Aside from lore and what's seen on screen, I've always wondered why the producers didn't continue to use the Constitution-class refit. Unlike TNG, they had the ability to pump out huge numbers of ships for filming. It also didn't seem like there wasn't a reason to use it during the Dominion War as we see a lot of older ships still in service. Even Geordi once stated, "just because something's old doesn't mean you throw it away" in reference to the Sydney-class USS Jenolan. He also said it could, "run circles around the Enterprise if it wasn't for all the structural damage."
In Voyager, we see an old D7 battle cruiser nearly defeat a newer Intrepid-class and the K'Tinga was historically seen as the equivalent to the Constitution-class. So we could expect the Constitution-class to perform just as well in the war as the Excelsior or K'Tinga; maybe even better. We even see the USS Centaur, an older contemporary of the Excelsior taking on a Jem'Hadar fighter without fear.
So, I'd like to know why the Constitution or Ambassador wasn't seen during the conflict with the Dominion. We even see Starfleet use the Oberth-class, a science vessel not suited for combat in two engagements with a Borg Cube.
The Excelsior always looked huge, at least 500m in length. Are there canonical dimensions available?
those ships had major issues with the warp drive when the first ship was launched. Montgomery Scott was called to star fleet command and was heavily questioned about the engines of the Excelsior for weeks and then the ship was fixed thanks to his Knowles of warp engines.
The Excelsior class has ventral phasers on its 2ndary hull...a group of 4 single emitters like the connie.
The reason why we did not see a lot of saucer separations was because it would cost too much money... I mean it was intended for emergencies. The only reason why we saw it in TNG was because the producers wanted to show off... I mean it was due to the great threats presented by the Q, the Borg, and that planet of weapons.
In-universe, saucer separation turned out to be inexplicably useless during the Dominion War. Every time we see a Galaxy on the screen in those huge battles, it's connected. It's not like they gave up on the whole separation idea when they built the Promethus with its multi-vector assault mode, so that's a big technical foul up since they had switched to CGI models for those battle scenes.
Plus it took to ling to explain the decision to do do it every time they made the choice.
Fascinating Starship Lore! * Live Long and Prosper* 🖖
I loved the Excelcior class from the first time I saw it. An interesting idea from FASA Trek was that translate actually became the standard by the time of TNG which explained why the warp factor changed from TOS to TNG
Oops I meant transwarp not translate. Spellcheck issues
My Head cannon tells me that as the ships aged, Starfleet probably began assigning Excelsior classes to admirals as personal flagships because of the nature of being an admiral. Admirals don't explore, they don't do survey missions or relief aid, they don't run supplies, guard borders, etc. They don't leave the safety of the Federation. Those are the jobs of commanders and captains. Admirals coordinate fleets and do paperwork. Some probably got cushy starbases well within Federation borders. But others were given these older ships that could ferry them around at Warp 8 or something from one planet to another, or to deliver orders to captains and do ship inspections.
So, get promoted to admiral, congrats, you get your own excelsior to do with what you want. Wanna jet over to Risa for a weekend? Go ahead. So what if it takes you an extra week to get somewhere, you mostly just sit at your desk anyway. Subspace conference calls happen at the same speed no matter if you're in an excelsior or a Sovereign. I bet alternate reality Riker also had an excelsior, and when they were going to mothball the Enterprise-D, he was like "Jackpot! I call dibs".
But it also has it's drawbacks. Remember, both admirals that fought against the Borg during Wolf 359 and First Contact died, probably because they were "most likely" both using Excelsiors.
Loving your content, so much information! Thank you :)
I love the Excelsior. It is the most practical of all federation vessels.
From the first time I saw an "Excelsior" class ship on screen I saw it as an interim design, a place holder of sorts until a much better design could be developed, built in numbers and placed into general service.
There is a Excelsior called USS Quey Two or something like that. Data mentions it in an episode.
I’d always thought of the Miranda and excelsior we’re essentially the same ship. If they don’t need a long range/heavy cruiser and more of a short range transport/escort the don’t build the hull.Makes sense if you looking at it from a modular construction point of view
Been waiting for this one for so long!
When I first seen the Excelsior inside the space station ready to chase down the Enterprise I thought she was going to replace the Enterprise. Dam good ship!
For me I always looked at Excelsior class as a whole as a retired ship class. Admirals only ones being able to pick what ship they fly on so you see a few in TNG.. But as ships in Starfleet mothball then started being pulled out and pressed back into service with upgraded weapons in the DS9 wars/conflicts. Kinda like the Iowa class Battlships getting another call to duty
I suppose the other possibility with transwarp is that although Excelsior had transwarp, the actual definition of the term changed as time progressed, not unlike how Pluto was demoted from being a planet because we changed the threshold.
More than likely, the fact that the Excelsiors were so big is probably why they stayed in service for so long: More room for upgrades and new technologies. The Mirandas are just so small and cheap to mass produce any upgrades to them will be minor at best, but Excelsiors are big heavy cruisers and thus have more options for refits and changes. And as you've observed, with the Khitomer Accords there weren't many peer adversaries the Federation needed to worry about in the Alpha and Beta quadrants. So having a large Excelsior fleet you kept upgraded and refit seemed sufficient for defending the Federation.
By the time of the Dominion War of course, the Excelsior was not the first choice for a front line warship, even with the Lakota-style refit available. Sure, they're nothing to sneeze at but you will still lose more Excelsiors in battle against the Dominion than you will Akiras. However, scrapping and replacing them all would have deprived the Federation of a lot of combat platforms at a crucial time when they needed every hull possible. It's much like the situation in the US Air Force with the B-52 bomber: Yes, they are all getting very long in the tooth but to scrap them means you gut a core part of your bomber fleet. So you keep them going as long as possible. Same with the Excelsiors, though more than likely after the Dominion War they'll be replaced in the role of a heavy cruiser, support cruiser, explorer and other roles by the large crop of new classes Starfleet has built.
It’s interesting you mentioned the nostalgic factor, I never really considered it.
But yeah, considering the luxurious quarters in ships like the Galaxy, the bunks in Excelsior class would probably updated to be larger private quarters. The updated technology would be more autonomous and require less personnel.
Excelsior’s refit looks so similar to the original excelsior because the studio didn’t have the budget to build a new class, but didn’t want to destroy the excelsior. So the put blisters on the sides along with more fins, this way they could do serious damage without hurting the main model.
In Star Trek, before the launch of the Galaxy Class, the "Cruiser" ships like the Constitution and Excelsior, and even the Ambassador Class, were Saucer Sep capable, but (This is unknown about the Ambassador Class, but the design suggests it's the same with her as well) could not utilize a Saucer Separation like the Galaxy Class because of the limits offered to Starfleet at the time, but it is suggested by Riker's ability to "Manually Dock" in Seasons One and Two of TNG (Encounter At Farpoint and The Icarus Factor) that prior to the Galaxy Class, a Starship, likely an Ambassador or Excelsior Class, were capable of Saucer Separation, but there was never a constant showing of the ships on screen to suggest that they did in fact use it like a Galaxy Class, but I'd say likely, you're looking at the same problems the Constitution Class suffered.... The old "You Need to return to Dry dock to re-integrate the Primary and Secondary Hull" issue, as stated in the TNG Technical Manual and other media, which means it's use is likely only to ensure the survival of the crew if at all possible... Saucer Sep never came up completely before TNG, though it is implied in TOS.... Though it was mentioned as a "Nacelle Jettison" in "The Apple" and "The Savage Curtain" it's highly implied that the Saucer could be separated as a "Lifeboat" for the Connie.... Also, Gene Roddenberry wanted originally to have just the Saucer destroyed in Star Trek III, and have a symbolic re-integration of the Secondary Hull with a new Saucer, symbolizing the reunion of the crew, and of Kirk and Spock.... Saucer Separation (Not Multi Vector, sorry Prometheus Fans) has been around since TOS, and artists such as Andrew Probert, and ship designers such as Matt Jeffries and Doug Drexler added designs to the ships to suggest it, as mainly a "Lifeboat" scenario, as stated before.... Though every starship looks to have a Nacelle AND Saucer Sep capability by their visual designs... Sorry for the Rambling, but it's EXTREMELY Early and I'm a sad individual who has watched and read WAY TOO MUCH Trek LMFAO!!!! (Really, no such thing lol) Also, you forgot the USS Okinawa, NCC-13958... Excelsior Class Starship that Leyton Commanded and Sisko served aboard prior to the Saratoga.... The Okinawa is arguably more canon than some of the Starships you mentioned prior, as it was officially mentioned in DS9 and Verified in the "Star Trek Encyclopedia)
Sources: memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Saucer_separation
memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/USS_Okinawa
Shouldn't the Ambassador class been more common than the even older Excelsior class during the Dominion War?
There should have been more on DS9 besides USS Yamaguchi in Emissary. They decide to use horrible looking kitbashes instead. Maybe that's why I don't watch DS9 much!
Could the Ambassador model have broken in any way, such as the lighting not working?
The reason there are more Excelsiors than Ambassadors is because huge fleets of them were built early in the 24th century as part of a Romulan / Federation cold war arms race which ended in 2322. The Ambassador class was designed during peacetime and were neither warships nor were they produced in great numbers. The Federation was rapidly growing during this period so old ships such as the Excelsior were never phased out but were operated alongside the Ambassador class. The Excelsior also continued to see action in Cardassian border wars of the 2250s and 2260s where they proved to still be be a capable warship.
The real world explanation is when they first needed to show new ships, they didn't have money to build an Ambassador, so they used the existing Excelsior model.
IIRC "Transwarp" is not a specific thing, but a term that has meant several things, "Transwarp" in the context of the time of the Excelsior meant a warp drive that could jump from O to any warp number without having to go through them sequentially, in that sense "Transwarp" is a standard ability of pretty much every federation ship after this.
Transwarp as in the episode of Voyager I won't name, is a different kind of "Transwarp".
In regards to transwarp drive, I seem to remember something about it in Voyager.
Transwarp has been used as a catchall for multiple types of drives.
Q tells Picard during his trial that "you were close with your transport, it's a shame you gave up"
With the refits being as easy as pie, according to star fleet anyways, I wonder if they used a modular build system. Like the way the Navy currently builds its ships. Would help explain why the ship designs where similar. Instead of just money issues. Just playing devil's advocate. lol. I know it's because the network is cheap.
Why reinvent the wheel when you don't have too. It's not like there's Atmospheric factors effecting flight... Plus you are probably correct in that the interior is completely modular. While at times wasteful pop and swap makes upgrades easier. Additionally, Lore Reloaded probably doesn't know that planes and helicopters today can go to depot to get their entire airframe zeroed out. That's why the B-52 will likely be in the US fleet for near a century. Hell the OH-58D had airframes from the original 1960's Alpha model.
I don’t think it’s cannon but i did read that starfleet did make many of their ships with a modular build system.
+Daniel Schick also why most military vehicles see services that seem to go on forever when it was a good model(F-16 F-18 etc...) where as bad models(F-14) get rotated out fairly quickly
Zero Cool what was wrong with the F-14 Tomcat?
I had a whole long comment added to this video about modularity in designs. Basically the huge technological leap between Constitution and Excelsior (And Miranda) was the ability to upgrade and replace parts and systems built to fit in slots.
I really do like the design of the excelsior class. The Hood is a fitting name for one.
about the saucer-sep: the fact that most ships have it designed in some form indicates to me that it's an FAA/OSHA-mandated feature. ("Sorry, but unless you can evacuate from a core-breach in less than 10 minutes in at least 19 of the 20 scenarios just given, we can't certify this vessel as space-worthy")
Holding my Micro Machine Enterprise B while I’m watching this 😀