For sensors at least, yep. That being said it is not that far fatched. Most 1st world war planes would not show up as planes on modern Radar. That being said they still would make bad attack planes cause they are as slow as a car and can be shot down with handguns. I assume the NX would fare similarly bad in any kind of fight.
Something that would have been awesome is if Chakotay relieved Janeway of command and then that caused a sort of Starfleet-Maquis division on the ship and the Maquis crew actually ended up being more loyal to Federation principles than the Starfleet crew was.
That would require some sort of continuity, though. I mean, it'd be a great idea, but as the series went on it got more like there was one writer who occasionally said "what about that Maquis" thing?"
Amaranth Absolutely. It would last beyond these 2 eposodes. Any sort of resentment could show up occasionally, especially when Janeway faces another major decision about whether or not to use the transwarp hub to get home, or cripple the Borg.
This was one of my most hated episodes. I found both sides objectionable. Janeway was irrational, Chakotay was incompetent and the Equinox characters were little better. But the one thing that pissed me off the most was the writers' treatment of the Doctor. Do they seriously expect us to believe that switching off his ethical programming will instantly turn him into a sociopath? What about his bond with Seven? Why would he suddenly be willing to harm her just because his morality is gone? Worse, he even seems to enjoy it! If anything, switching off his ethical subroutines should have made him willing to harm or kill the Equinox crew to defend her from them. What's the implication here? That all AI programs are sociopathic torturers held back only by an easily shut-off subroutine? I refuse to believe that. They did the same thing with Data in Descent Part 2, but at least in that case, he was also being manipulated by emotions he'd never felt before. It was like a drug addiction combined with psychological manipulation and the aforementioned morality deprivation. I can accept that. But the Doctor has emotions. He's had them since the beginning. For over half a decade he bonded with the crew of the Voyager, Seven in particular. This episode expects us to believe that a lack of morality programming just throws all of that out the window. Bull. Shit.
Not to mention, why not just have the EMH inject everybody in the Voyager crew, with a drug that he claimed would fight the equinox neurotoxins or something like that, claiming that Ransom had placed gas bombs on board secretly? And in realty it just put the crew to sleep after 10 minutes, so that Ransom could take over? Nothing in the episode made sense. But the main point here, is that Janeway did not have any Authority over the equinox, because she was quite simply out of her jurisdiction. So Janeway was simply a Mary Sue who was playing God, as always. If she ever got back to Federation space, Starfleet would not reprimand her for leaving the Equinox alone, because they were stranded in another quadrant on the other side of the Galaxy, decades from any hope of return; and so well she could be forgiven for not helping the equinox because of their crimes, she had absolutely no right to attack. She could read the rulebook to Ransom, but that's about it. Her mission was just to capture maquis operatives, not to fix the whole freaking Galaxy.
Seeing it that way, it would have been great to see the Doctor like a full psychopath but still loyal and sabotaging the Equinox, even killing some crew in cold blood ("Did you really think that I was going to betray Voyager?") And that once he returns to normal suffering from guilt for his actions. But no, everything is "I was a monster for a few days, well, I need a patch"
@@NVGEAR Yeah, but in the End, the Captain of the Equinox was a damn monster who deserved it all. So i understand why all the others were 'shocked' and 'out of their normal behavior' here. Not a bad Episode I'd say, though not a really good one also.
Well, Data also turned into a sociopathic monster when his ethics programming was switched off in "Descent," even though it made no logical sense either, but... that's just how AI operate in Star Trek, apparently.
The thing about Ransom that gets me is that he was willing to do whatever it took to get his crew even if it meant sacrificing his morals. And while Janeway never went that far, you cannot deny she did some shady shit to get the crew home.
@@LoreReloaded Are there any captains who HAVEN'T done shit like this? Oh wait... yes. There is one in particular. Three if you count two of his fellow crew who went on to become captains in their own right, and possibly four if Geordi LaForge still became captain even after Harry Kim's timeline fuckery in Timeless, at least since we never see LaForge commit any of these kinds of actions on screen, and we know that he will object to letting entire groups of people get wiped out (as seen in Pen Pals).
@@adamking4538 Absolutely! Admiral Janeway was able to casually genocide God knows how many people in order to get her people back, because Captain Janeway had spent decades doing whatever the fuck she felt like whenever the fuck she felt like it without any oversight from anyone and getting away with it because nobody ever calls Janeway on her sanctimonious bullshit. If any other captain in Starfleet had done half of the questionable shit Janeway did they would have been court-martialed. What happens when Janeway gets back to earth? They made her a damn admiral that far superior officers like Picard had to answer to.
I’m pretty sure that Janeway was editing all of the reports they sent back to Starfleet once they re-established communications. There’s no f’ing way that the Admiralty would’ve let her get away with half of the bullshit she pulled if they actually knew what Janeway was doing.
I might be wrong, but the military does allow for the refusal of a direct order. Though your reason better hold up in a court martial. Yet usually a crew following orders a commander has given usually is reprimanded less. Janeway would have a lot of explaining to do.
CORRECT: In Star Fleet you don't not have to follow an illegal order. In the US military Following an illegal order would result in war crimes such as in World War II *I was following orders IS NOT AN EXCUSE FOR MURDER*
But there is no court, no higher authority _in the Delta Quadrant_ for either of them to be held accountable to. In this situation, a Captain is truly "Master after God" on his or her own deck. Janeway setting herself up as _that authority outside of her own deck_ is at the very least, as noted, exceeding her authority. True pragmatism is this situation would be to say, "okay you've been doing The Thing as a matter of sheer necessity, stop doing The Thing, we have a better way. This will go in a report for Starfleet, and you may face censure or worse when we get home. For now, let's get the hell out of this combat zone" But then we wouldn't have a dramatic 1-hour episode, would we?
Equinox had a choice just as Janeway an they kept up AFTER meeting her. Knowing an order is WRONG isn't an excuse to follow it and claim to be obeying orders like others here have also said.Seeing as no one's perfect even someone like Janeway would have their pet peeves they NEVER ACCEPT or understand and where the absolute worst in them comes out. This must've been it
Donald Hudson I assume Janeway's crimes where swept under the rug for publicity reasons. You can't tell everyone that the first (well, technically third) ship that returned from the Delta Quadrant allied itself with the Borg. Just pin a lot of medals on them and give Janeway a desk job where she can't do any damage.
Schwarzer Ritter ah yeah voyager suffered that a few times as well and recovered think ships can deal with warp nacelle damage if the primary containment system for the warp drive remains OK and then they can compensate from then. I remember the nx class having severe nacelle damage and still limping to warp? Could be wrong though!
It's probably the 24th century equivalent of having the electrical system give out while your car is on the road. (Something I've actually had occur.) If you can pull over, you can put on the breaks and get help. If there's anything else going wrong, like being unable to get to the shoulder while your engine has stopped, then say your prayers.
I always thought Ransom was an odd choice as captain of a mid-range science vessel. From what we are told and shown of him, he should be on a combat, or at least, long-range exploration ship.
Phlarb always thought that myself would love to hear of a backstory Canon or otherwise of ransom being captain of a larger vessel maybe nebula class in the past and had some incident leaving him slightly unhinged and starfleet not wanting to lose an experienced captain relegated him to short range duration starship.
I agree the fact that he kept a nova class alive in the delta quadrant for that long shows that he is a damn genius captain. The Equinox had at best one third of almost everything Voyager had and Voyager got additional help from the marquis ship in terms of resources and personal i wonder how they would have performed without those surprisingly well trained new crew members like Torres for example. Also Neelix helped with his cooking without it their energy problem would have become even more serious if they would have needed to feed the crew with the replicators. So Voyager was better suited, better outfitted and had more luck right from the start and Ransom still somehow kept the ship going and made it as far to find those aliens to abuse. His potential was wasted on a nova class. He should have gotten a better command over a larger vessel.
Captaining a ship like the USS Equinox is usually a posting for the earlier part of a Starfleet Captain's command career. A good example is Captain Picard's posting on the USS Stargazer.
It should have been of prime importance to save both ships. That should have been the new, temporary, prime directive, whether scavenged for parts or simply as a second federation ship.
I'd have went with the Suggestion to cannabilise the equinox. Even find a way to stuff they're warp core in a Carbo bay when they needed to replace it after a breach/ emergency core release. Save on power so you didn't need to replicate parts.
Stick the _Equinox_ under _Voyager's_ saucer section, maybe? Between _Equinox's_ main deflector and _Voyager's_ secondary deflector, they probably wouldn't have had any issues with blocking _Voyager's_ main deflector dish. That is, after all, where the Captain's Yacht was supposed to go. Then you wouldn't be relying on _Equinox's_ slower warp drive to move it around, and you would gain an effective science/scout vessel, along with a helping hand in a fight.
John Quigley III The sad thing is that (if I remember correctly) part 2 was the beginning of Voyager being the only new trek on TV so they had plenty of DS9 talent available. This was about when I semi-checked out of Voyager because of all the inconsistency. Next week everyone was way too okidoke.
RimaNari I had forgotten about him switching to Voyager ever so briefly esp. since he came back for a couple next gen movies, there's a bit on memory alpha with sources I didn't Trace too far. Guess voy didn't like lengthy story arcs and chatecter development like on DS9. At least Battlestar saw the greatness.
Personally, I thought Janeway was always a poorly written character who was only saved by Kate Mulgrew's usually brilliant acting. That said, I thought this episode did a solid job in showing the differing reactions to the extreme psychological stresses that being lost 70 years from home could bring
Kate mulgrew's brilliant acting? You mean a cheap impression of Katharine Hepburn? It's like watching Christian Slater constantly just doing his cheap impression of Jack Nicholson, just plain nauseating. Janeway was a Mary Sue, face it. A Mary FREAKIN Sue.
Yeah really, @@HunterDominic. If Janeway was a Mary Sue then virtually all of the worthwhile men in Voyager were Gary Sues. The term "Mary Sue" gets thrown around so very easily these days. I agree with Lore Reloaded that Janeway's character was mishandled time to time, and the Equinox episode was by far the most anti-Janeway and Starfleet episode in Star Trek history... excluding Discovery and Picard of course.
Yeah, but in the End, the Captain of the Equinox was a damn monster who deserved it all. So i understand why all the others were 'shocked' and 'out of their normal behavior' here. Not a bad Episode I'd say, though not a really good one also.
@@SovereignStatesman Couldnt agree with you more! Cant stand Mulgrew. She did nothing that made me say "Yeah, she's a good actress" Her character was terribly written, just like the rest of the show really.
@@slevinchannel7589 depends on whether people are on more either the Deontogolocial level and/or the Utilitarian level of human ethics. Janeway came from a more utilitarian perspective until people realized she did it for personal reasons; hence, the cost/erased thousands of people from the timeline to get a few hundred back to the earth. Deontogolically speaking, it could have been more questionable, given the circumstances over the course of the series. Starfleet overall portrays itself as more Deontogolocial, yet when it comes to utilitarian scenarios, Starfleet officers struggle at times given a person's current psychological state.
One thing I never understood about Equinox - correct me if I'm misremembering, but wasn't the caretaker usually sending ships back after he was done with them? I thought that the only reason he didn't send Voyager back was because he was running out of time, and he wanted to use all the energy he had left to stockpile the Ocampan city.
Voyager had a brilliant concept going for it, could have been an absolute beast of a Star Trek series... the actors were great, and the characters were endearing (for the most part)... but the writing was just weak in many episodes...
The Nova Class is the Oberth with real hull plating instead of explodium. Eaglemoss's magazine discusses the landing legs designed into the hull, so it was supposed to be able to land as well. Not exactly alpha canon but the designer's lips are more reliable than anything else not in an episode. And yeah, Janeway is the pot, Ransom is the kettle.
That statement applies far more so for the spoon shape of Voyager but it can land without issue on-screen. The Nova, being much smaller, lighter, and with a better mass distribution relative to the landing legs (they're on the MSD just below the main deflector and cargo bay), requires much less suspension of disbelief.
Voyager landed on a planent's surface in the 37's, Basics I, Basics 2, and Dragon's Teeth and those are just the episodes I can think of off the top of my head. So that cannot be it.
I personally love how well Ransom works as a mirror of Janeway. Ransom, essentially, is Janeway if Janeway had to go just a little bit farther. Janeway regularly justified atrocity in the same manner as Ransom.
Maybe Harry stated that Voyager had only "damaged" the Equinox' nacelle because... well, if Voyager is able to miraculously recover from significant damage between episodes to be like new, he figured the Equinox could do the same..? :P
The Equinox shows what happens when you don't have plot armor and a magic reset button to fix all your mistakes, or just bad luck and attrition. Though more seriously, if I was Janeway, I would have arrested Ransom and used him as a scapegoat for all the bad decisions him and his crew made (especially when he offered to take the fall for his ship and crew). With Ransom as the fall guy you would hopefully have the room necessary to put an officer of your choosing in charge of the Equinox, put loyal officers onto the Equinox, and spread out the Equinox's crew onto the two ships available. That should let you dilute their overall influence and as a means to filter out the personnel that were just in a rough spot and the real bad eggs of the lot. Once everyone's back in the Federation I would let Starfleet sort out who was right or wrong in a properly legal way. Not necessarily the most ethical way to deal with the situation, but it would maximize the resources available to Voyager and thus increase the chances of getting back to the Federation.
I always attributed Janeway's lack of skill as a Captain due to her background. She's a scientist first and foremost. She wasn't a diplomat or a warrior and it showed on many episodes. And Voyager was her first command right? I always thought it was an odd fit to have Voyager out hunting Maquis. Voyager should have been out exploring the Gamma Quadrant or doing some kind of exploring.
You know what would have been cool? If Ransom was section 31, and he was like under Section 31 of the Federation Charter I am beyond any and all rules.
Voyager couldn't follow the Equinox into the atmosphere because they were going in too fast, and that combined with the stress on the shields from the aliens made it impossible for voyager to follow or they may loose shields and come under direct attack from the aliens. The equinox however was not under attack and has a much smaller profile. Its logical to assume that the equinox could travel at higher velocities in such a situation.
You've got a good point in mentioning the inconsistency in the writing of Janeway's character, but the questionable or even sometimes despicable things either captain did were great examples of how Star Fleet / Federation values erode under the pressure of the situations both ships and their crews found themselves in. Ever since seeing how the Federation dealt with the colonists in the demilitarized zone after the end of the border wars with the Cardassians I've been disillusioned with all if the UFP's utopian nonsense. Sure, the colonists didn't have to stay in the DMZ. The Federation had offered to resettle them elsewhere, but as asinine as this will probably sound I think the colonists were too attached to the planets they'd settled and were adamant about staying. Of course, the Federation wasn't going to get involved beyond talking when the Cardassians instituted a campaign of arming their own people in order to drive the remaining colonists out of the DMZ, but I was frankly disgusted by the Federation's attitude once those colonists took up arms and started fighting back as the Maquis. The Federation considered them an embarassment and an inconvenience with very little deep consideration for the situation that had caused the creation of the Maquis. I'm sure there are some people that have little sympathy for the colonists since they chose to stay in the DMZ at the tender mercies of the Cardassians, but I really think the Federation were so intent on making peace following the border wars that they deliberately ignored the obvious fact that the Cardassians were a jingoistic power intent on expansion. Any peace treaty with the Cardassians was just delaying the inevitable. The Federation's washing their hands of the Maquis reminded me of Neville Chamberlain selling out Czechoslovakia and allowing Germany to annex the Sudetenland so Great Britain wouldn't have to go to war with the Nazis. Maybe Janeway and Ransom's behavior and / or decisions might bother some people, but not me.
By the way, I realize talking about the DMZ and the Maquis is getting off the subject of Voyager, but it's what came easily to hand as far as far as illustrating my point. I apologize for digressing.
I think you demostrate a point though both Ransom and Janeway were taught during the Federation's Chamberlain time. Just look at Flashback when she tells Harry her thoughts about the Kirk era. THey were not trained properly.
Yeah, the Cardassian peace treaty was a complete abandonment of the foundational purpose of the Federation. You hear a lot of talk about the Prime Directive being the most important law in Starfleet, but in the beginning the Federation was a mutual defense pact. Protecting member worlds is the very first purpose of the Federation. The Federation giving away those border worlds and just expecting the citizens to resettle would be like if Russia invaded Alaska and the USA agreed to give Alaska to Russia in exchange for peace. I think that the Dominion actually SAVED the Federation. Without a scary big-bad to keep all the remaining worlds in line, I think the Federation would have slowly but completely balkanized over 50 years or so as member worlds decided that the promise of protection was no longer reliable, and decided to go their own way.
There is a special condition in the prime directive called section 31 of the uniform code that's what ransoms used to justify his actions and Janeway damn well knew that
Using Discovery as a canon changing event, perhaps sometime after the Tardigrade experiment, there was promulgation of secret Starfleet directive to captains (like the Omega Directive) regarding using living things for propulsion. That might be why she is so angry about Ransom using the Spirits of Goodwill.
I always loved voyager. I've never been fixated on the minor details with any of the series, i just enjoy the story being told. I've found that over the years I can re watch voyager more than all the others (ds9 very close 2nd)
It would be interesting to see what would have happened if the Captains were reversed... what would Ransom have done as Captain of Voyager... would he have worked with the Maquis? More interesting would be what would Janeway have done as Captain of Equinox? I actually think she would have done far worse
John Braddock That explains why she left them live.... she has a history of letting murderous cyborgs lose among their victims... she left the few other humans live to cover up this one.... She just gets worse.... even Br. Cavil would say.... "Damn lady.... too far"😆
Janeway like many characters in Voyager are badly and inconsistently written, and one may easily argue that Janeway is a bad captain. However the show often puts Janeway in a position where she has to decide between getting her crew home and harming others, and often/always she chooses not to harm others. Year of Hell also shows that she would decide similarly under extreme conditions. What makes you think Janeway would act the same way as Ransom?
RimaNari fair point on "Year of Hell" And put in the same position as Janeway, I may have chosen the same path and probably would have screwed up even more... But Voyager had resources Equinox didn't and if she were Captain of Equinox, I think she may have done just as Ransom had done... she was traumatised by events and would not have acted rationally... we see some of her actions when she does have the resources are abhorrent so I'm my opinion... real world Janeway would have done worse.... inconsistently written Janeway on the show... may have chosen different. You made great points... and I do enjoy good discussion on the my favourite shows (and I do really enjoy Voyager )
The thing of transporting part of the Equinox’s crew to Voyager with the shield up is explained in the Star Trek TNG technical manual. The explanation given is the shields have gaps in them that rotate around the ship and by matching those gaps you can transport crew through them.
“Starfleet Regulation 619 states that any commanding officer who’s been emotionally compromised by an aspect of the mission at hand must resign said command.” - Spock Prime, “Star Trek” (2009).
Would you ever considering doing a video talking about whether or not Voyager had a negative impact on the Delta Quadrant or not? I'm of the opinion it did have a negative impact, but I'm unsure.
Hoehner Tim agreed, given how extremely dangerous and a threat a handful of Borg ships was EVEN to when opposed by multiple large fleets of various races each just to slow them down.. THEY'RE DEFINITELY an enemy Starfleet and everyone who knows about them would make major exceptions for any advantages they could get
Some species like Borg an 8472 made their objectives and intentions pretty clear.. the rest of the universe would join them or die. LITERALLY. So they wouldn't honor any agreement to do different from a single ship when they have an Armada.. who would? An if she did back to that again.. they weren't gonna stop for her or anyone else. They'd just ignore her and brush her off at best or would attempt to destroy or assimilate her and her ship and Cree along with everyone else that decided to try to back her. Then anything she did which with those 2 would've had to be extreme or very unconventional, often both would've been seem as required not just necessary. To understand we often have to ask the obvious.. it'd been US in charge and having to make that choice if we'd do differently and how knowing what was probably gonna happen if we picked wrong.. she probably went each time with the option balancing out most to gain with least risk or outta pure desperation cuz everything else they tried either would've almost for sure failed and they already knew it or if what they tried failed instead of succeeded they were screwed anyways. She did what she had to to get them home. Rather well WHILE mostly living up to Federation standards when they could. Doubt even most the other shows would've gone as well considering what all they faced and how long it took the odds were good they were NEVER gonna make it or least almost none of the original crew was gonna live to see it.
lets be honest the Delta Quadrant is pretty much the shithole of the Milkyway heck even the Gamma Quadrant with the Dominion Nutcases locks more appealing. Just think about the mayor powers in the Delta and you will see the Getho Version of the Klingons,Sick(in both ways) asshohles that want to steal your lung and the allmighty mechazombies from hell all that sprinkled with Dictator Assholes that thing controling 5 Planets makes them god or people with sticks so far up their ass they can second as a flagpole and most of them are on a techlevel that makes even the NX-01 laught hard at them. Also don´t forget the Race of Nelix (yes i know they have a name) aa bunch of furry Ferengi rejects. Heck Janeway could have bombed every planet they came along and would have done good for that Quadrant given by what she dealt with it´s more impressive she stayed somewhat levelheaded and didn´t nuke everyone that dared to hail them
Yeah, but in the End, the Captain of the Equinox was a damn monster who deserved it all. So i understand why all the others were 'shocked' and 'out of their normal behavior' here. Not a bad Episode I'd say, though not a really good one also.
Reminds me of the BSG episode where... [SPOILERS] they find the Pegasus and after a bit of celebrating and hand-shaking, the captains of the two ships end up at each-other's throats over how the Cylon prisoners should be treated (should torture be allowed or not, etc). The whole thing sort of blows up in their face.
12:41 that's how they beamed over. The Equinox crew had the Voyager's shield frequencies, so they would have been able to set their transporters up to match them... probably. I mean, It's likely the Enterprise-E did the same thing when it rescued the crew of The Defiant in First Contact. If you can set your weapons to bypass the shields, there's no reason to think you can't also set your transporters to bypass the shields as well, so long as the shield frequency remains unchanged for the duration of the effort.
Don't you know how expensive 2 ships would be?! Seriously, Janeway should have insisted that they stop using the aliens and take a copy of all the info. But the writers wanted an action piece so... Good work.
aaannddd at the moment the aliens were able to do damage to the ship in crazy levels,the plan is basically rendered as problematic and best discarded. Wonder why they didn;t try to ask these floaties some Anti-matter,since it is clearly stated that these lil' guys can "wish" objects into reality.
I never understood why Voyager had to follow the Equinox into the planet's atmosphere. Starships have been shown to fire on targets on the ground while staying in orbit.
One thing that stands out to me is the "They were following orders..." argument. Under any kind of circumstance, that excuse only goes so far. Yes, we are communal creatures that seek to either follow or lead (for the most part), but eventually such an argument has to be put aside, and responsibility taken. Both of the crews in question are guilty of this. Janeway's Senior Staff should have stepped in and said 'enough' on more than a couple of occasions. And Ransom's crew (what was left of it) could have put the man aside when it became clear that he couldn't really handle command under such extreme conditions. Now, this isn't to say that anyone else on either Voyager or Equinox could have done a better job. To say differently would be pure conjecture by any measure. Still, orders or no, the crew of the Equinox knowingly took part in mass murder. They are still responsible, still culpable, no matter the extreme nature of their circumstances. For it is only under pressures that might break us do really find out what we're made of. Though I have to say that I appreciate how Ransom was able to find himself in the end, despite everything he and his crew had been through and done. Not everyone who hits rock bottom can and/or will pick themselves back up again.
Just a note about the atmospheric flight, the only times we've ever seen Voyager land (or go underwater) was after a, I believe it was called "Gray Alert", specific modification that flipped on. Without that system switched on Voyager would behave like any other starship flopping about. Either there wasn't time to trigger that system in the Equinox episode or Janeway was so out of her mind with rage that she forgot to do it.
I really didn't like that episode ether. There were many ways they both could have worked together to get home. You are absolutely right when you say that Chakote didn't do his job. He failed as a 1st officer to relieve his captain because she was clearly not in her right mind. Great video again sir!
Intrepid was designed to land - yes - but i would imagine - that would be in advisable - when your ship is already damaged, shields are already low and are taking continous enemy fire (from aliens trying to weaken the shields), and you are descenting into more turbulent way into the atmosphere aka in a hot pursuit rather than normal slow low angle of descent atmospheric aproach. Combination of those factors might be just enough to prove highly damaging if not deadly... So just saying it should handle it beacause it was designed to land is kinda not enough in this case.
Ransom really did care for his crew. But he go so desperate to save them that he sacrificed his morals to do it. Janeway Made the issue personal and showed that she lead more by her pride and ego than her common sense. What every the reason, SF should have discharged her from service instead of promoting her and putting her in command of Intelligence.
i dunno, i think there comes a point where your morality is only going to get you killed, using your morality as a guideline, a guidline you can cast off and pull back when you need to if you want to survive. i know that makes me sound like a monster but the monsters are the ones who survive and sometimes even thrive so it does make me wonder, are they really wrong?
@DevilJin. But this wasn't about survival, really. Janeway risked the survival of everyone by diving headlong into a conflict, that could have easily been avoided.
I don't know if it was intentional or not, but the interesting thing about these episodes wasn't the fight but how it demonstrated that Janeway was deeply unsuited for command in these circumstances. There's an old book, movie to I think, called the Cain Mutiny. The basic premise is a court martial for an officer who over rides the captain's orders during a storm to save the ship. The officer was absolutely right to do so. But a large part of the book is in the defense of the captain. The book takes place during world war II, and the captain is a career officer who in the normal course of events would have never been subjected to the sorts of stresses needed to command a ship during those times. In short he's just one of the guys you need to keep a navy going most of the time. It's not an inspiring defense, but it is a telling one. Those kinds of captains do exist and most of the time they work out fine. They are professional, they don't make waves, they retire to a small party. But occasionally they get put in impossible positions. That captain is Janeway to try and use excuses like bad writing takes away from one of the most fascinating characters in modern science fiction, even if it was achieved mostly by accident.
I might be wrong as its been a while but, one thing I'd like to point out about the shields of the Nova and Intrepid during the first fight and the descent through the atmosphere of the planet. Yes, voyager was able to withstand atmospheric flight, however, voyagers shields were missing the primary shield grid generator. It was running on a backup, they had also sustained moderate damage from fighting with the aliens at this point. Equinox was worse off but they had Voyager's shield grid generator. This explains away Equinox being able to sustain the atmospheric flight longer. Another thing we know is cannon from TNG (and just general physics irl) is that if you enter an atmosphere wrong or at too steep a trajectory or what have you it can (And has on screen in TNG) destroy ships with shields at full that were designed for atmospheric flight. Also a random funfact: The sequence before they drop out of warp is the one and single time we ever see Voyager at warp without its nacelles in their upright position implying that the position of the nacelles may or may not have something to do with the warp drive. . . GOD I FEEL LIKE THAT OBLIGATORY "UM ACTUALLY!" NERD NOW.
Also, I get why they did it from a production standpoint. But hello they could have deactivated the other EMH fixed him then they could have had two doctors or at lest another back up matrix for Voyagers EMH.
9:35 The Nova class was designed for planetary survey missions, which could mean they had atmospheric capability. Also, the Equinox was descending at a rapid pace and was a smaller ship. Less surface area would mean less atmospheric resistance for them. They may have been descending much faster than Voyager normally takes when entering an atmosphere.
The crew couldn't win either way.. They followed the Captain's orders, and Janeway said "it was their mistake to follow his orders". But if the crew had disobeyed his orders and taken over the ship, Janeway would have charged them all with "mutiny". They were screwed either way.
I think what helped was Janeway had Nelix which also was a guide to help Voyager to avoid conflicts when they could. The one thing that always bother me was why the Equinox was not sent back to the Alpha quadrant by the Caretaker.
Sisco is my favorite captain, flaws and all. He knows he did a pretty terrible thing, but could live with it because he feels it saved lives. And it did. He knew that.
This episode as many other suffered greatly from poor writing for sure. The episode would have been better if the ships had joined forces against a alien species and the Equinox sacrificed to protect Voyager.
Which misses the whole point of the episode. It was meant to teach what happens when the prime directive isnt your first priority. Ransom is the AntiJaneway. Kirk once said the prime directive is more important than a Starfleet officer's life. They take an oath to that effect. The first episode Janeway bit the bullet and sacrificed their way home. Ransom and his crew acted in a cowardly manner.
Just more reasons why Insaneway is a meme. Equinox did a lot of bad things, but desperate people do desperate things in desperate situations. When death itself is holding a knife to your jugular, life simply becomes a game; play to win, there are no rules. You get where I'm going, at least you can kinda get what the Equinox and it's crew was doing and why. Insaneways refusal to take on his crew was just shortsighted and stupid.
The aliens attacking Equinox would die naturally when they stayed in our dimension for to long as they attacked the ship. They were only guilty of using these dozens of dead aliens as fuel for their ship. They did manage to keep some of these hostile aliens alive longer and did experiment which was morally wrong, but understandable. In contrast in the episode "The Swarm" Captain Janeway orders voyager to invade alien territory and destroys thousands of their ships to save 15 months of travel time. Captain Janeway was guilty of far worse things than Captain Ransom was.
True, she took up arms against a non-enemy of the federation. In fact despite their telepathic dogma species 8472 hadn't attacked anyone but the borg as far as we know.
Respect to the #LoreMaster! Even though Janeway was compromised, she did what she had to in order to save not only her crew, but to save humanity and #StarFleet from future attacks from those Aliens. I believe that was her end goal. Both were wrong, but Ransom took a page out of Kirk’s book in order to get his crew home, even if it meant to sacrifice himself. I hate that 2 Federation captains came to blows, when the mission was to get home! Redshirts don’t mix and it’s proven countless times
That bit about the atmosphere? Plot hole fix: the deflector dish was damaged and couldn't maintain shields under the strain whereas, normally, it could do so. Never underestimate plot-armor-y luck shots. The deflector bit might also explain why they couldn't go to warp, since it's needed to keep the ship from getting pummeled by micro-meteriods while traveling at warp.
It just goes to show that Federation moral superiority doesn't actually elevate Starfleet officers above their darker impulses. It just makes them blind to them. We saw that in Star Trek First Contact, where Lilly reveals this to Picard.
The Nova harbored a physically smaller cross-section for atmospheric entry. This could have contributed to the re-entry angle of pursuit, but it’s stupid that voyager couldn’t just pull-out and wait for the other ship to renter space.
I can definitely see what you mean when you say both captains were in the wrong. Once again, you made your point very clearly and very convincingly. And once again, you’ve convinced me!
In that episode they did mention once they get back to Earth a board of inquiry would be sorting it out. If Janeway and Ransom had been in Starfleet space they both would have been relieved much the same way the Captain Maxwell of the Phoenix was for destruction of Cardassian vessels. If you notice in the movie Nemesis, Janeway is not in space anymore. Yes, while she is an Admiral she is not in a position to affect other species as she once did.
Thank you! The production of this episode to review this episode of Star trek Voyager was obviously very painful for you. But I thank you for helping me better understand my intellectual disconnect while viewing some of these episodes a Voyager.
I always found the concept of this episode dumb. Tactically Janeway should of done everything in her power to save the Equinox. Two ships are better than one. Hell, they should of had a dozen warships by this time anyway and been an armada crossing the delta quadrant laying waste to all who oppose them. Mirror universe stuff I guess.
As for the nova going into the atmosphere and voyager having problems, didn’t the Equinox steal voyagers shield generator requiring voyager to make another one. It could be the shields of a intrepid class are designed for more atmospheric Manoeuvers.
Just a quick point out (note: not a disagreement). Remember that prior to all of this the crew and Janeway had not seen another human face, or federation ship outside of their own vessel. This combined with their idealistic placement of "what the federation is" means that this whole time both crews were looking forward to be part of something that they themselves had bigged up, because of hope... So when these two ships meet, its not solely about "what they did", either from randsoms discord about Janeways false authority or Janeways unrealistic hyperisation of the federation morals on a captain who had lost hope and his crew. This episode was a poor execution of genuine psychological issues associated with deep space isolation. It could have been represented in a far more effecient way, but the concept was still intruiging.
At 10:00 you had me laughing so hard I fell off my chair! :D I never noticed that the Nova was not really made for entering a planet and Voyager was but they could not continue, I had to actually re-watch this today. So many mistakes the writers made, I am surprised they got away with even half of it. (Warp 10 anyone? That is a whole different story)
I always liked the Equinox eps. Wish they could have spread their appearances across multiple episodes. A Voyager enemy being seen as an ally of the Equinox would have been cool.
What you're missing is that they aren't in Federation space. Janeway is the superior officer. Star Fleet as far as they're concerned consists of two ships: Voyager and the Equinox. She is Star Fleet command in this situation. And Chakotey can't just relieve her of duty without worrying about what the repercussions will be for him down the line. He still has to live with her, essentially. There is no escape.
Well the equinox Captain and crew should have been quarantined until the ship was checked and when the problem was found take what they needed and leave the crew to the aliens that they pissed off.
Ok, I've watched your vid and digested your opinion....You raise some good points! While I will say Captain Janeway should have handled the situation better. I still support Captain Janeway.
The Nova was “designed for... terraforming missions”, so by conjecture atmospheric entry makes sense... why an intrepid can’t follow is a stretch but still arguable seeing as the Nova can probably enter more kinds of atmospheres (terraforming)
So Ransom killed space dolphins to get his people home. Janeway killed him and destroyed a federation vessel that would have been a benefit to have along. Space activism.
I'm not sure Chakotay could remove her from duty. he isn't a full commander, he would need the CMO to approve the releiving of duty as wel, which would mean Janeway stayed in charge until that point, which didnt help the situtation he was trying to stop.
Based on the episode Janeway should have been court-martialed, stripped of her rank, and put in jail NOT promoted to Vice-Admiral (jumping THREE ranks, which I'm QUITE sure is UNHEARD OF). Torturing and threatening a fellow Starfleet officer? Tsk. Tsk. Sisko did some PRETY questionable things, but not THAT.
Sisko killed two innocent people and is responsible for hundreds of thousands of romulan deaths and he poision the biosphere of a planet. lets not act like Sisko is a bed of roses.
birdoprey5 While probably betraying the principles of the Federation with the methods he used to "persuade" the Romulans to join the war. If the Federation were somehow incarnated into a person, do you REALLY think he/she would approve of HOW Sisko "saved" him/her? There's only so far you can go down THAT road before BEING Section 31, a group for whom "The Federation is ALWAYS right" and "The ends justify the means" basically ARE the group's guiding principles. Bashir SAYS as much in "Inter Enim Silent Leges".
saquist never said he was. In fact, the darkness and moral ambiguity of DS9 makes it my favorite Trek series. I mean, I LOVE the idealism of TNG too, but it got QUITE preachy at times.
saquist and HE probably should have been court-martialed TOO, IF Starfleet knew what he did, except for the whole "he's now a god and we can't find him" thing. Convenient much? Kirk was court-martialed for losing an officer under mysterious circumstances and some sources indicate Picard was subject to AUTOMATIC/MANDATORY court-martial for losing Stargazer, but Sisko gets nada? Come on.
Yeah, the writing of Janeway was terribly inconsistent. This was one of those times where she was written as hypocritical monster. But I don't think Janeway had the self understanding to realize that. I think Ransom could have been an interesting character to watch, something like Janeway would have been if Year of Hell had been season long instead of a two parter. But both Captains had been too proud and stubborn
You made the argument that Chakotay was a poor XO for not relieving Janeway of command because she was emotionally compromised but if you remember Commodore Decker assumed command of the Enterprise over McCoy's objections to Spock to which Decker pointed out that Spock was following regulations until Spock pointed out that Decker could be relieved of command due to his continued and suicidal attack on the Planet Killer.
Plus thiose were colonists that vwere illegally on that planet.plus they were terorists.that used wmds on a cardasian planet.and they allso atacked federation ships.So i shed no tears for them.
I've been drawing blueprints of a variant of nova class, more reminiscent of the Rhode Island from the last episode of voyager. it is designed as a 3 story house propped up on 4 support beams (designed to look like landing struts) I'm trying to build a physical model of it out of sheets of 1/16th inch foam construction board but keep getting distracted by life. ya ya of course it'll cost a few million to build in real life, but who knows....
What the Equinox has gone through up to the point of this episode would have made for a much more exciting show than what we got with the ever self-repairing Voyager.
Can we all just agree that the Nova class was such a cool little ship?
Also, I love the EVIL doctor.
It was
One of my favorite designs.
Yes
The Rhode Island variant was cool as well.
So if polarising the hull made Voyager undetectable, the NX class would be a bloody stealth ship in the 24th century.
The Cocomonk the 22nd Century NX Class of ship should given starfleet a first rate warship, if polarization of hull playing made the ship undetectable
For sensors at least, yep. That being said it is not that far fatched. Most 1st world war planes would not show up as planes on modern Radar. That being said they still would make bad attack planes cause they are as slow as a car and can be shot down with handguns. I assume the NX would fare similarly bad in any kind of fight.
I swear, no starfleet captain ever looks out a bloody window
Ya right because Quantum.
@MrNotadream but what if you strapped modern weapons onto the NX? Sure it wouldn't do well in a long fight but it could make for a good opening punch.
Something that would have been awesome is if Chakotay relieved Janeway of command and then that caused a sort of Starfleet-Maquis division on the ship and the Maquis crew actually ended up being more loyal to Federation principles than the Starfleet crew was.
Jason Fischer intresting
That would require some sort of continuity, though. I mean, it'd be a great idea, but as the series went on it got more like there was one writer who occasionally said "what about that Maquis" thing?"
Amaranth Absolutely. It would last beyond these 2 eposodes. Any sort of resentment could show up occasionally, especially when Janeway faces another major decision about whether or not to use the transwarp hub to get home, or cripple the Borg.
Jason Fischer That would require competent writers, though.
Yes! Janway was crap!
Ha. You fool. No jail can hold The Sisko.
Ritchian First name, Don't F@#! With
No. The panel agreed last year, that Garak was responsible for the theft.
yup, the prophets wouldn't allow it.
Because I can live with it. I can live with it. Computer! Erase this entire log.
Have you ever danced with MuthaBEEP SISKO in the pale Moon light?😂
So the equinox is pretty much Voyager without plot armor. Damn
And the fastest ship in Star fleet.
Sisko should definetly Rot in a Prsion Cell. He failed at a human, let alone a STARFLEET OFFICER!!
@@slevinchannel7589 keep in mind that Sisko did redeem himself in the series finale by making the ultimate sacrifice.
@@darthkurland That is just your personal opinion how much worth you give to this.
Its not 'final' for all humans.
This was one of my most hated episodes. I found both sides objectionable. Janeway was irrational, Chakotay was incompetent and the Equinox characters were little better. But the one thing that pissed me off the most was the writers' treatment of the Doctor.
Do they seriously expect us to believe that switching off his ethical programming will instantly turn him into a sociopath? What about his bond with Seven? Why would he suddenly be willing to harm her just because his morality is gone? Worse, he even seems to enjoy it! If anything, switching off his ethical subroutines should have made him willing to harm or kill the Equinox crew to defend her from them.
What's the implication here? That all AI programs are sociopathic torturers held back only by an easily shut-off subroutine? I refuse to believe that.
They did the same thing with Data in Descent Part 2, but at least in that case, he was also being manipulated by emotions he'd never felt before. It was like a drug addiction combined with psychological manipulation and the aforementioned morality deprivation. I can accept that.
But the Doctor has emotions. He's had them since the beginning. For over half a decade he bonded with the crew of the Voyager, Seven in particular. This episode expects us to believe that a lack of morality programming just throws all of that out the window. Bull. Shit.
Not to mention, why not just have the EMH inject everybody in the Voyager crew, with a drug that he claimed would fight the equinox neurotoxins or something like that, claiming that Ransom had placed gas bombs on board secretly? And in realty it just put the crew to sleep after 10 minutes, so that Ransom could take over?
Nothing in the episode made sense.
But the main point here, is that Janeway did not have any Authority over the equinox, because she was quite simply out of her jurisdiction. So Janeway was simply a Mary Sue who was playing God, as always.
If she ever got back to Federation space, Starfleet would not reprimand her for leaving the Equinox alone, because they were stranded in another quadrant on the other side of the Galaxy, decades from any hope of return; and so well she could be forgiven for not helping the equinox because of their crimes, she had absolutely no right to attack. She could read the rulebook to Ransom, but that's about it. Her mission was just to capture maquis operatives, not to fix the whole freaking Galaxy.
Seeing it that way, it would have been great to see the Doctor like a full psychopath but still loyal and sabotaging the Equinox, even killing some crew in cold blood ("Did you really think that I was going to betray Voyager?") And that once he returns to normal suffering from guilt for his actions. But no, everything is "I was a monster for a few days, well, I need a patch"
Sisko should definetly Rot in a Prsion Cell. He failed at a human, let alone a STARFLEET OFFICER!!
@@NVGEAR Yeah, but in the End, the Captain of the Equinox was a damn monster who deserved it all.
So i understand why all the others were 'shocked' and 'out of their normal behavior' here.
Not a bad Episode I'd say, though not a really good one also.
Well, Data also turned into a sociopathic monster when his ethics programming was switched off in "Descent," even though it made no logical sense either, but... that's just how AI operate in Star Trek, apparently.
The thing about Ransom that gets me is that he was willing to do whatever it took to get his crew even if it meant sacrificing his morals. And while Janeway never went that far, you cannot deny she did some shady shit to get the crew home.
Janeway absolutely went that far and wiped out the existence of children in the last episode to save ..at best..a dozen people
@@LoreReloaded Are there any captains who HAVEN'T done shit like this? Oh wait... yes. There is one in particular. Three if you count two of his fellow crew who went on to become captains in their own right, and possibly four if Geordi LaForge still became captain even after Harry Kim's timeline fuckery in Timeless, at least since we never see LaForge commit any of these kinds of actions on screen, and we know that he will object to letting entire groups of people get wiped out (as seen in Pen Pals).
@@LoreReloaded Can you really judge Captain Janeway and Admiral Janeway in the same way?
@@LoreReloaded never heard you complain when Odo did the same
@@adamking4538 Absolutely! Admiral Janeway was able to casually genocide God knows how many people in order to get her people back, because Captain Janeway had spent decades doing whatever the fuck she felt like whenever the fuck she felt like it without any oversight from anyone and getting away with it because nobody ever calls Janeway on her sanctimonious bullshit.
If any other captain in Starfleet had done half of the questionable shit Janeway did they would have been court-martialed. What happens when Janeway gets back to earth? They made her a damn admiral that far superior officers like Picard had to answer to.
Makes you wonder what Janeway and her crew did and didn't tell Starfleet when they got back home.
I’m pretty sure that Janeway was editing all of the reports they sent back to Starfleet once they re-established communications. There’s no f’ing way that the Admiralty would’ve let her get away with half of the bullshit she pulled if they actually knew what Janeway was doing.
I might be wrong, but the military does allow for the refusal of a direct order. Though your reason better hold up in a court martial. Yet usually a crew following orders a commander has given usually is reprimanded less.
Janeway would have a lot of explaining to do.
CORRECT: In Star Fleet you don't not have to follow an illegal order. In the US military Following an illegal order would result in war crimes such as in World War II
*I was following orders IS NOT AN EXCUSE FOR MURDER*
saquist thanks for the info. Wasn't sure of the full regs. Just knew that there's always a loop hole.
But there is no court, no higher authority _in the Delta Quadrant_ for either of them to be held accountable to. In this situation, a Captain is truly "Master after God" on his or her own deck. Janeway setting herself up as _that authority outside of her own deck_ is at the very least, as noted, exceeding her authority. True pragmatism is this situation would be to say, "okay you've been doing The Thing as a matter of sheer necessity, stop doing The Thing, we have a better way. This will go in a report for Starfleet, and you may face censure or worse when we get home. For now, let's get the hell out of this combat zone" But then we wouldn't have a dramatic 1-hour episode, would we?
Equinox had a choice just as Janeway an they kept up AFTER meeting her. Knowing an order is WRONG isn't an excuse to follow it and claim to be obeying orders like others here have also said.Seeing as no one's perfect even someone like Janeway would have their pet peeves they NEVER ACCEPT or understand and where the absolute worst in them comes out. This must've been it
Donald Hudson
I assume Janeway's crimes where swept under the rug for publicity reasons. You can't tell everyone that the first (well, technically third) ship that returned from the Delta Quadrant allied itself with the Borg. Just pin a lot of medals on them and give Janeway a desk job where she can't do any damage.
Damaged warp nacelle on a nova class drop to impulse shut down warp engines. Damaged warp nacelle on galaxy class instant warp core breach lol 😂
Normally a damaged nacelle is not a problem, if the rest of the systems are at least somewhat operational.
Schwarzer Ritter ah yeah voyager suffered that a few times as well and recovered think ships can deal with warp nacelle damage if the primary containment system for the warp drive remains OK and then they can compensate from then. I remember the nx class having severe nacelle damage and still limping to warp? Could be wrong though!
It's probably the 24th century equivalent of having the electrical system give out while your car is on the road. (Something I've actually had occur.) If you can pull over, you can put on the breaks and get help. If there's anything else going wrong, like being unable to get to the shoulder while your engine has stopped, then say your prayers.
If you look at a Galaxy Class the wrong way it will blow up
@@mjb51270 I'd call it the Ford Pinto of starships... if that title weren't already taken by the Oberth.
I always thought Ransom was an odd choice as captain of a mid-range science vessel. From what we are told and shown of him, he should be on a combat, or at least, long-range exploration ship.
Phlarb always thought that myself would love to hear of a backstory Canon or otherwise of ransom being captain of a larger vessel maybe nebula class in the past and had some incident leaving him slightly unhinged and starfleet not wanting to lose an experienced captain relegated him to short range duration starship.
Could be that he's been changed drastically by his experiences
I agree the fact that he kept a nova class alive in the delta quadrant for that long shows that he is a damn genius captain. The Equinox had at best one third of almost everything Voyager had and Voyager got additional help from the marquis ship in terms of resources and personal i wonder how they would have performed without those surprisingly well trained new crew members like Torres for example. Also Neelix helped with his cooking without it their energy problem would have become even more serious if they would have needed to feed the crew with the replicators. So Voyager was better suited, better outfitted and had more luck right from the start and Ransom still somehow kept the ship going and made it as far to find those aliens to abuse.
His potential was wasted on a nova class. He should have gotten a better command over a larger vessel.
Captaining a ship like the USS Equinox is usually a posting for the earlier part of a Starfleet Captain's command career. A good example is Captain Picard's posting on the USS Stargazer.
It should have been of prime importance to save both ships. That should have been the new, temporary, prime directive, whether scavenged for parts or simply as a second federation ship.
I thought of that, but it would have slowed voyager down.. only able to go warp 8 - would decrese time they got their..
I'd have went with the Suggestion to cannabilise the equinox. Even find a way to stuff they're warp core in a Carbo bay when they needed to replace it after a breach/ emergency core release. Save on power so you didn't need to replicate parts.
If they could build a shuttle that could go past warp 10 then I am preety certain they could make the equinox faster.
A little Borg tech and they could speed up the ship. Plus most of the time Voyager is only traveling Warp 6.
Stick the _Equinox_ under _Voyager's_ saucer section, maybe? Between _Equinox's_ main deflector and _Voyager's_ secondary deflector, they probably wouldn't have had any issues with blocking _Voyager's_ main deflector dish. That is, after all, where the Captain's Yacht was supposed to go. Then you wouldn't be relying on _Equinox's_ slower warp drive to move it around, and you would gain an effective science/scout vessel, along with a helping hand in a fight.
The Sisko stole all the good writing away from Voyager.
John Quigley III The sad thing is that (if I remember correctly) part 2 was the beginning of Voyager being the only new trek on TV so they had plenty of DS9 talent available. This was about when I semi-checked out of Voyager because of all the inconsistency. Next week everyone was way too okidoke.
Ron D Moore actually came onboard for 2 episodes but immediatley left because the on set atmosphere was so toxic.
Interesting. Where can I read up on Moore leaving the set again? (Not meant agressively, I'm curious.)
RimaNari I had forgotten about him switching to Voyager ever so briefly esp. since he came back for a couple next gen movies, there's a bit on memory alpha with sources I didn't Trace too far. Guess voy didn't like lengthy story arcs and chatecter development like on DS9. At least Battlestar saw the greatness.
www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm
This interview with him. Enjoy.
Personally, I thought Janeway was always a poorly written character who was only saved by Kate Mulgrew's usually brilliant acting. That said, I thought this episode did a solid job in showing the differing reactions to the extreme psychological stresses that being lost 70 years from home could bring
Kate mulgrew's brilliant acting? You mean a cheap impression of Katharine Hepburn? It's like watching Christian Slater constantly just doing his cheap impression of Jack Nicholson, just plain nauseating.
Janeway was a Mary Sue, face it.
A Mary FREAKIN Sue.
Tom Evans uh no
Yeah really, @@HunterDominic. If Janeway was a Mary Sue then virtually all of the worthwhile men in Voyager were Gary Sues. The term "Mary Sue" gets thrown around so very easily these days. I agree with Lore Reloaded that Janeway's character was mishandled time to time, and the Equinox episode was by far the most anti-Janeway and Starfleet episode in Star Trek history... excluding Discovery and Picard of course.
Yeah, but in the End, the Captain of the Equinox was a damn monster who deserved it all.
So i understand why all the others were 'shocked' and 'out of their normal behavior' here.
Not a bad Episode I'd say, though not a really good one also.
@@SovereignStatesman Couldnt agree with you more! Cant stand Mulgrew. She did nothing that made me say "Yeah, she's a good actress" Her character was terribly written, just like the rest of the show really.
And we never saw the Equinox crew members ever again. Nor were they even mentioned.
J Garza They were delicious!
J Garza one became a Cylon
Yes it was a great follow through by the writers and producers.
I think one of the Equinox crew appears in the background once! Certainly not actually referenced on screen
Episode. Name. Screenshot. Seriously... I need to see if this is true or not.
Janeway eliminated tens of thousands of people from the timeline, just to save a few hundred...
They totally started the terrible acts though?
She was totally in the right to fix the Time line though?
@@slevinchannel7589 depends on whether people are on more either the Deontogolocial level and/or the Utilitarian level of human ethics. Janeway came from a more utilitarian perspective until people realized she did it for personal reasons; hence, the cost/erased thousands of people from the timeline to get a few hundred back to the earth.
Deontogolically speaking, it could have been more questionable, given the circumstances over the course of the series. Starfleet overall portrays itself as more Deontogolocial, yet when it comes to utilitarian scenarios, Starfleet officers struggle at times given a person's current psychological state.
One thing I never understood about Equinox - correct me if I'm misremembering, but wasn't the caretaker usually sending ships back after he was done with them? I thought that the only reason he didn't send Voyager back was because he was running out of time, and he wanted to use all the energy he had left to stockpile the Ocampan city.
Voyager had a brilliant concept going for it, could have been an absolute beast of a Star Trek series... the actors were great, and the characters were endearing (for the most part)... but the writing was just weak in many episodes...
Indeed. The worst part about Tuuvix was having the episode in the first place.
The Nova Class is the Oberth with real hull plating instead of explodium. Eaglemoss's magazine discusses the landing legs designed into the hull, so it was supposed to be able to land as well. Not exactly alpha canon but the designer's lips are more reliable than anything else not in an episode.
And yeah, Janeway is the pot, Ransom is the kettle.
That statement applies far more so for the spoon shape of Voyager but it can land without issue on-screen. The Nova, being much smaller, lighter, and with a better mass distribution relative to the landing legs (they're on the MSD just below the main deflector and cargo bay), requires much less suspension of disbelief.
What if Voyager's shield's can't take atmospheric flight, but it's hull can? Shield bubbles aren't very aerodynamic. Voyager is.
How is a smooth oviod shield bubble not aerodynamic?
Voyager landed on a planent's surface in the 37's, Basics I, Basics 2, and Dragon's Teeth and those are just the episodes I can think of off the top of my head. So that cannot be it.
Maybe they couldn't take hits while entering the atmosphere. Or more likely, the writing sucked.
TalesOfWar writing sucked is highly likely.
In battle, those shields should be taking impacts greater than modern day atomic weapons. It should be more than capable of taking a bit of wind.
I personally love how well Ransom works as a mirror of Janeway. Ransom, essentially, is Janeway if Janeway had to go just a little bit farther. Janeway regularly justified atrocity in the same manner as Ransom.
I could never understand Chakotay. You would think a terrorist leader would be more eager to stage a mutiny than Spock or Riker, not less.
Maybe Harry stated that Voyager had only "damaged" the Equinox' nacelle because... well, if Voyager is able to miraculously recover from significant damage between episodes to be like new, he figured the Equinox could do the same..? :P
Mark B And given time famed Starfleet engineers may have been able to.
I just assumed he was the reincarnation of the Klingon BoP gunner from ST-3 *shrug*.
Poor, dumb Harry...
The Equinox shows what happens when you don't have plot armor and a magic reset button to fix all your mistakes, or just bad luck and attrition.
Though more seriously, if I was Janeway, I would have arrested Ransom and used him as a scapegoat for all the bad decisions him and his crew made (especially when he offered to take the fall for his ship and crew). With Ransom as the fall guy you would hopefully have the room necessary to put an officer of your choosing in charge of the Equinox, put loyal officers onto the Equinox, and spread out the Equinox's crew onto the two ships available. That should let you dilute their overall influence and as a means to filter out the personnel that were just in a rough spot and the real bad eggs of the lot. Once everyone's back in the Federation I would let Starfleet sort out who was right or wrong in a properly legal way.
Not necessarily the most ethical way to deal with the situation, but it would maximize the resources available to Voyager and thus increase the chances of getting back to the Federation.
I always attributed Janeway's lack of skill as a Captain due to her background. She's a scientist first and foremost. She wasn't a diplomat or a warrior and it showed on many episodes. And Voyager was her first command right? I always thought it was an odd fit to have Voyager out hunting Maquis. Voyager should have been out exploring the Gamma Quadrant or doing some kind of exploring.
You know what would have been cool? If Ransom was section 31, and he was like under Section 31 of the Federation Charter I am beyond any and all rules.
Voyager couldn't follow the Equinox into the atmosphere because they were going in too fast, and that combined with the stress on the shields from the aliens made it impossible for voyager to follow or they may loose shields and come under direct attack from the aliens. The equinox however was not under attack and has a much smaller profile. Its logical to assume that the equinox could travel at higher velocities in such a situation.
In addition, Voyager's shields were also partially damaged from the earlier fighting with the Equinox which likely didn't help matters.
You've got a good point in mentioning the inconsistency in the writing of Janeway's character, but the questionable or even sometimes despicable things either captain did were great examples of how Star Fleet / Federation values erode under the pressure of the situations both ships and their crews found themselves in. Ever since seeing how the Federation dealt with the colonists in the demilitarized zone after the end of the border wars with the Cardassians I've been disillusioned with all if the UFP's utopian nonsense. Sure, the colonists didn't have to stay in the DMZ. The Federation had offered to resettle them elsewhere, but as asinine as this will probably sound I think the colonists were too attached to the planets they'd settled and were adamant about staying. Of course, the Federation wasn't going to get involved beyond talking when the Cardassians instituted a campaign of arming their own people in order to drive the remaining colonists out of the DMZ, but I was frankly disgusted by the Federation's attitude once those colonists took up arms and started fighting back as the Maquis. The Federation considered them an embarassment and an inconvenience with very little deep consideration for the situation that had caused the creation of the Maquis. I'm sure there are some people that have little sympathy for the colonists since they chose to stay in the DMZ at the tender mercies of the Cardassians, but I really think the Federation were so intent on making peace following the border wars that they deliberately ignored the obvious fact that the Cardassians were a jingoistic power intent on expansion. Any peace treaty with the Cardassians was just delaying the inevitable. The Federation's washing their hands of the Maquis reminded me of Neville Chamberlain selling out Czechoslovakia and allowing Germany to annex the Sudetenland so Great Britain wouldn't have to go to war with the Nazis. Maybe Janeway and Ransom's behavior and / or decisions might bother some people, but not me.
By the way, I realize talking about the DMZ and the Maquis is getting off the subject of Voyager, but it's what came easily to hand as far as far as illustrating my point. I apologize for digressing.
I think you demostrate a point though both Ransom and Janeway were taught during the Federation's Chamberlain time. Just look at Flashback when she tells Harry her thoughts about the Kirk era. THey were not trained properly.
Yeah, the Cardassian peace treaty was a complete abandonment of the foundational purpose of the Federation. You hear a lot of talk about the Prime Directive being the most important law in Starfleet, but in the beginning the Federation was a mutual defense pact. Protecting member worlds is the very first purpose of the Federation.
The Federation giving away those border worlds and just expecting the citizens to resettle would be like if Russia invaded Alaska and the USA agreed to give Alaska to Russia in exchange for peace.
I think that the Dominion actually SAVED the Federation. Without a scary big-bad to keep all the remaining worlds in line, I think the Federation would have slowly but completely balkanized over 50 years or so as member worlds decided that the promise of protection was no longer reliable, and decided to go their own way.
There is a special condition in the prime directive called section 31 of the uniform code that's what ransoms used to justify his actions and Janeway damn well knew that
Janeway forgot that when you look into the abyss, the abyss looks into you.
Using Discovery as a canon changing event, perhaps sometime after the Tardigrade experiment, there was promulgation of secret Starfleet directive to captains (like the Omega Directive) regarding using living things for propulsion. That might be why she is so angry about Ransom using the Spirits of Goodwill.
I always loved voyager. I've never been fixated on the minor details with any of the series, i just enjoy the story being told. I've found that over the years I can re watch voyager more than all the others (ds9 very close 2nd)
Nova-class was a planetary survey ship. It definitely had the ability to land. You could see the landing gear doors on the CGI studio models.
It would be interesting to see what would have happened if the Captains were reversed... what would Ransom have done as Captain of Voyager... would he have worked with the Maquis?
More interesting would be what would Janeway have done as Captain of Equinox? I actually think she would have done far worse
shronemor I just remembered that cylon 4/Simon WAS a member of equinox's crew.
John Braddock That explains why she left them live.... she has a history of letting murderous cyborgs lose among their victims... she left the few other humans live to cover up this one....
She just gets worse.... even Br. Cavil would say.... "Damn lady.... too far"😆
Janeway like many characters in Voyager are badly and inconsistently written, and one may easily argue that Janeway is a bad captain. However the show often puts Janeway in a position where she has to decide between getting her crew home and harming others, and often/always she chooses not to harm others. Year of Hell also shows that she would decide similarly under extreme conditions.
What makes you think Janeway would act the same way as Ransom?
RimaNari fair point on "Year of Hell"
And put in the same position as Janeway, I may have chosen the same path and probably would have screwed up even more...
But Voyager had resources Equinox didn't and if she were Captain of Equinox, I think she may have done just as Ransom had done... she was traumatised by events and would not have acted rationally... we see some of her actions when she does have the resources are abhorrent so I'm my opinion... real world Janeway would have done worse.... inconsistently written Janeway on the show... may have chosen different.
You made great points... and I do enjoy good discussion on the my favourite shows (and I do really enjoy Voyager )
Yes, given the situation they literally had no other sane choice.
The thing of transporting part of the Equinox’s crew to Voyager with the shield up is explained in the Star Trek TNG technical manual. The explanation given is the shields have gaps in them that rotate around the ship and by matching those gaps you can transport crew through them.
“Starfleet Regulation 619 states that any commanding officer who’s been emotionally compromised by an aspect of the mission at hand must resign said command.” - Spock Prime, “Star Trek” (2009).
Janeway was definitely emotionally compromised at that moment. If Tuvok was nearby, he should have nerve pinched Janeway and relieved her from duty.
The Equinox was an asset and should have been preserved at all costs.
I love the Nova!! Scale it up in size and power to the Intrepid and I want 10 of em.
Would you ever considering doing a video talking about whether or not Voyager had a negative impact on the Delta Quadrant or not? I'm of the opinion it did have a negative impact, but I'm unsure.
Voyager did more damage to the Borg than entire civilizations so in the greater scheme of things that counts for more than breaking a few local laws.
Hoehner Tim agreed, given how extremely dangerous and a threat a handful of Borg ships was EVEN to when opposed by multiple large fleets of various races each just to slow them down.. THEY'RE DEFINITELY an enemy Starfleet and everyone who knows about them would make major exceptions for any advantages they could get
Luke Munoz
We do not know if Species 8472 would have stopped after wiping out the Borg, so we can ignore that possibility.
What else has Janeway done?
Some species like Borg an 8472 made their objectives and intentions pretty clear.. the rest of the universe would join them or die. LITERALLY. So they wouldn't honor any agreement to do different from a single ship when they have an Armada.. who would? An if she did back to that again.. they weren't gonna stop for her or anyone else. They'd just ignore her and brush her off at best or would attempt to destroy or assimilate her and her ship and Cree along with everyone else that decided to try to back her. Then anything she did which with those 2 would've had to be extreme or very unconventional, often both would've been seem as required not just necessary. To understand we often have to ask the obvious.. it'd been US in charge and having to make that choice if we'd do differently and how knowing what was probably gonna happen if we picked wrong.. she probably went each time with the option balancing out most to gain with least risk or outta pure desperation cuz everything else they tried either would've almost for sure failed and they already knew it or if what they tried failed instead of succeeded they were screwed anyways. She did what she had to to get them home. Rather well WHILE mostly living up to Federation standards when they could. Doubt even most the other shows would've gone as well considering what all they faced and how long it took the odds were good they were NEVER gonna make it or least almost none of the original crew was gonna live to see it.
lets be honest the Delta Quadrant is pretty much the shithole of the Milkyway heck even the Gamma Quadrant with the Dominion Nutcases locks more appealing. Just think about the mayor powers in the Delta and you will see the Getho Version of the Klingons,Sick(in both ways) asshohles that want to steal your lung and the allmighty mechazombies from hell all that sprinkled with Dictator Assholes that thing controling 5 Planets makes them god or people with sticks so far up their ass they can second as a flagpole and most of them are on a techlevel that makes even the NX-01 laught hard at them. Also don´t forget the Race of Nelix (yes i know they have a name) aa bunch of furry Ferengi rejects. Heck Janeway could have bombed every planet they came along and would have done good for that Quadrant given by what she dealt with it´s more impressive she stayed somewhat levelheaded and didn´t nuke everyone that dared to hail them
Yeah, but in the End, the Captain of the Equinox was a damn monster who deserved it all.
So i understand why all the others were 'shocked' and 'out of their normal behavior' here.
Not a bad Episode I'd say, though not a really good one also.
Reminds me of the BSG episode where...
[SPOILERS]
they find the Pegasus and after a bit of celebrating and hand-shaking, the captains of the two ships end up at each-other's throats over how the Cylon prisoners should be treated (should torture be allowed or not, etc). The whole thing sort of blows up in their face.
12:41 that's how they beamed over. The Equinox crew had the Voyager's shield frequencies, so they would have been able to set their transporters up to match them... probably. I mean, It's likely the Enterprise-E did the same thing when it rescued the crew of The Defiant in First Contact. If you can set your weapons to bypass the shields, there's no reason to think you can't also set your transporters to bypass the shields as well, so long as the shield frequency remains unchanged for the duration of the effort.
Loved the USS EQUINOX & Captain Ransom. Would have been cool if the did a spin off instead of the Equinox being destroyed
Don't you know how expensive 2 ships would be?!
Seriously, Janeway should have insisted that they stop using the aliens and take a copy of all the info. But the writers wanted an action piece so...
Good work.
aaannddd at the moment the aliens were able to do damage to the ship in crazy levels,the plan is basically rendered as problematic and best discarded.
Wonder why they didn;t try to ask these floaties some Anti-matter,since it is clearly stated that these lil' guys can "wish" objects into reality.
I never understood why Voyager had to follow the Equinox into the planet's atmosphere. Starships have been shown to fire on targets on the ground while staying in orbit.
One thing that stands out to me is the "They were following orders..." argument. Under any kind of circumstance, that excuse only goes so far. Yes, we are communal creatures that seek to either follow or lead (for the most part), but eventually such an argument has to be put aside, and responsibility taken. Both of the crews in question are guilty of this. Janeway's Senior Staff should have stepped in and said 'enough' on more than a couple of occasions. And Ransom's crew (what was left of it) could have put the man aside when it became clear that he couldn't really handle command under such extreme conditions.
Now, this isn't to say that anyone else on either Voyager or Equinox could have done a better job. To say differently would be pure conjecture by any measure. Still, orders or no, the crew of the Equinox knowingly took part in mass murder. They are still responsible, still culpable, no matter the extreme nature of their circumstances. For it is only under pressures that might break us do really find out what we're made of. Though I have to say that I appreciate how Ransom was able to find himself in the end, despite everything he and his crew had been through and done. Not everyone who hits rock bottom can and/or will pick themselves back up again.
Yes!!! “For the Uniform” was a massive violation that seemed completely overlooked.
Just a note about the atmospheric flight, the only times we've ever seen Voyager land (or go underwater) was after a, I believe it was called "Gray Alert", specific modification that flipped on. Without that system switched on Voyager would behave like any other starship flopping about. Either there wasn't time to trigger that system in the Equinox episode or Janeway was so out of her mind with rage that she forgot to do it.
Yeah we can tank kilotons if not megatons of shots but a little reentry is just too much.
I really didn't like that episode ether. There were many ways they both could have worked together to get home. You are absolutely right when you say that Chakote didn't do his job. He failed as a 1st officer to relieve his captain because she was clearly not in her right mind. Great video again sir!
Intrepid was designed to land - yes - but i would imagine - that would be in advisable - when your ship is already damaged, shields are already low and are taking continous enemy fire (from aliens trying to weaken the shields), and you are descenting into more turbulent way into the atmosphere aka in a hot pursuit rather than normal slow low angle of descent atmospheric aproach. Combination of those factors might be just enough to prove highly damaging if not deadly... So just saying it should handle it beacause it was designed to land is kinda not enough in this case.
Ransom really did care for his crew. But he go so desperate to save them that he sacrificed his morals to do it. Janeway Made the issue personal and showed that she lead more by her pride and ego than her common sense. What every the reason, SF should have discharged her from service instead of promoting her and putting her in command of Intelligence.
ringleader61 what intelligence
I think they promoted her so she'd be behind a desk instead of where she could do real damage.
i dunno, i think there comes a point where your morality is only going to get you killed, using your morality as a guideline, a guidline you can cast off and pull back when you need to if you want to survive. i know that makes me sound like a monster but the monsters are the ones who survive and sometimes even thrive so it does make me wonder, are they really wrong?
@DevilJin. But this wasn't about survival, really. Janeway risked the survival of everyone by diving headlong into a conflict, that could have easily been avoided.
I don't know if it was intentional or not, but the interesting thing about these episodes wasn't the fight but how it demonstrated that Janeway was deeply unsuited for command in these circumstances.
There's an old book, movie to I think, called the Cain Mutiny. The basic premise is a court martial for an officer who over rides the captain's orders during a storm to save the ship. The officer was absolutely right to do so. But a large part of the book is in the defense of the captain. The book takes place during world war II, and the captain is a career officer who in the normal course of events would have never been subjected to the sorts of stresses needed to command a ship during those times. In short he's just one of the guys you need to keep a navy going most of the time.
It's not an inspiring defense, but it is a telling one. Those kinds of captains do exist and most of the time they work out fine. They are professional, they don't make waves, they retire to a small party. But occasionally they get put in impossible positions.
That captain is Janeway to try and use excuses like bad writing takes away from one of the most fascinating characters in modern science fiction, even if it was achieved mostly by accident.
I think my favorite part was the outro. Glad to see you diversifying out of youtube. Well done!
I might be wrong as its been a while but, one thing I'd like to point out about the shields of the Nova and Intrepid during the first fight and the descent through the atmosphere of the planet. Yes, voyager was able to withstand atmospheric flight, however, voyagers shields were missing the primary shield grid generator. It was running on a backup, they had also sustained moderate damage from fighting with the aliens at this point. Equinox was worse off but they had Voyager's shield grid generator. This explains away Equinox being able to sustain the atmospheric flight longer. Another thing we know is cannon from TNG (and just general physics irl) is that if you enter an atmosphere wrong or at too steep a trajectory or what have you it can (And has on screen in TNG) destroy ships with shields at full that were designed for atmospheric flight. Also a random funfact: The sequence before they drop out of warp is the one and single time we ever see Voyager at warp without its nacelles in their upright position implying that the position of the nacelles may or may not have something to do with the warp drive. . . GOD I FEEL LIKE THAT OBLIGATORY "UM ACTUALLY!" NERD NOW.
I'm so glad that you mentioned Sisko poisoning a whole planet and how there was no comeuppance for destroying a biosphere
Are Nova class Starships are stronger than the Oberth class Starships ?
Yes. A taco is stronger than an Oberth.
Also, I get why they did it from a production standpoint. But hello they could have deactivated the other EMH fixed him then they could have had two doctors or at lest another back up matrix for Voyagers EMH.
YES!!! Finaly someone who points out that Sisko is a war criminal.
9:35 The Nova class was designed for planetary survey missions, which could mean they had atmospheric capability. Also, the Equinox was descending at a rapid pace and was a smaller ship. Less surface area would mean less atmospheric resistance for them. They may have been descending much faster than Voyager normally takes when entering an atmosphere.
The crew couldn't win either way.. They followed the Captain's orders, and Janeway said "it was their mistake to follow his orders". But if the crew had disobeyed his orders and taken over the ship, Janeway would have charged them all with "mutiny". They were screwed either way.
I think what helped was Janeway had Nelix which also was a guide to help Voyager to avoid conflicts when they could. The one thing that always bother me was why the Equinox was not sent back to the Alpha quadrant by the Caretaker.
Sisco is my favorite captain, flaws and all. He knows he did a pretty terrible thing, but could live with it because he feels it saved lives. And it did. He knew that.
This episode as many other suffered greatly from poor writing for sure. The episode would have been better if the ships had joined forces against a alien species and the Equinox sacrificed to protect Voyager.
Ya, equinox should have been like the BSG Pegasus in the battle of new caprica.
Which misses the whole point of the episode. It was meant to teach what happens when the prime directive isnt your first priority. Ransom is the AntiJaneway. Kirk once said the prime directive is more important than a Starfleet officer's life. They take an oath to that effect. The first episode Janeway bit the bullet and sacrificed their way home. Ransom and his crew acted in a cowardly manner.
Ken Jett
well, that would be a different story.
Just more reasons why Insaneway is a meme. Equinox did a lot of bad things, but desperate people do desperate things in desperate situations. When death itself is holding a knife to your jugular, life simply becomes a game; play to win, there are no rules.
You get where I'm going, at least you can kinda get what the Equinox and it's crew was doing and why. Insaneways refusal to take on his crew was just shortsighted and stupid.
The aliens attacking Equinox would die naturally when they stayed in our dimension for to long as they attacked the ship. They were only guilty of using these dozens of dead aliens as fuel for their ship. They did manage to keep some of these hostile aliens alive longer and did experiment which was morally wrong, but understandable.
In contrast in the episode "The Swarm" Captain Janeway orders voyager to invade alien territory and destroys thousands of their ships to save 15 months of travel time. Captain Janeway was guilty of far worse things than Captain Ransom was.
True, she took up arms against a non-enemy of the federation. In fact despite their telepathic dogma species 8472 hadn't attacked anyone but the borg as far as we know.
Respect to the #LoreMaster! Even though Janeway was compromised, she did what she had to in order to save not only her crew, but to save humanity and #StarFleet from future attacks from those Aliens. I believe that was her end goal. Both were wrong, but Ransom took a page out of Kirk’s book in order to get his crew home, even if it meant to sacrifice himself. I hate that 2 Federation captains came to blows, when the mission was to get home! Redshirts don’t mix and it’s proven countless times
That bit about the atmosphere? Plot hole fix: the deflector dish was damaged and couldn't maintain shields under the strain whereas, normally, it could do so. Never underestimate plot-armor-y luck shots. The deflector bit might also explain why they couldn't go to warp, since it's needed to keep the ship from getting pummeled by micro-meteriods while traveling at warp.
It just goes to show that Federation moral superiority doesn't actually elevate Starfleet officers above their darker impulses. It just makes them blind to them. We saw that in Star Trek First Contact, where Lilly reveals this to Picard.
This was an interesting twist on the BSG episodes Living Legend
The Nova harbored a physically smaller cross-section for atmospheric entry. This could have contributed to the re-entry angle of pursuit, but it’s stupid that voyager couldn’t just pull-out and wait for the other ship to renter space.
I love that long pause at the end, almost like you're at a loss for words on what else to say about Janeways' decision.
I can definitely see what you mean when you say both captains were in the wrong. Once again, you made your point very clearly and very convincingly. And once again, you’ve convinced me!
glad you enjoyed
In that episode they did mention once they get back to Earth a board of inquiry would be sorting it out. If Janeway and Ransom had been in Starfleet space they both would have been relieved much the same way the Captain Maxwell of the Phoenix was for destruction of Cardassian vessels. If you notice in the movie Nemesis, Janeway is not in space anymore. Yes, while she is an Admiral she is not in a position to affect other species as she once did.
Thank you!
The production of this episode to review this episode of Star trek Voyager was obviously very painful for you. But I thank you for helping me better understand my intellectual disconnect while viewing some of these episodes a Voyager.
The one line that always stuck with me was when Ransom states his ship was in pieces and his crew also faced starvation.
I always found the concept of this episode dumb. Tactically Janeway should of done everything in her power to save the Equinox. Two ships are better than one. Hell, they should of had a dozen warships by this time anyway and been an armada crossing the delta quadrant laying waste to all who oppose them. Mirror universe stuff I guess.
As for the nova going into the atmosphere and voyager having problems, didn’t the Equinox steal voyagers shield generator requiring voyager to make another one.
It could be the shields of a intrepid class are designed for more atmospheric Manoeuvers.
doesn't EVERY starfleet captain use anomolies to hide?
yeah i remember thinking that was a pretty obvious strategy to find out about
Just a quick point out (note: not a disagreement). Remember that prior to all of this the crew and Janeway had not seen another human face, or federation ship outside of their own vessel. This combined with their idealistic placement of "what the federation is" means that this whole time both crews were looking forward to be part of something that they themselves had bigged up, because of hope...
So when these two ships meet, its not solely about "what they did", either from randsoms discord about Janeways false authority or Janeways unrealistic hyperisation of the federation morals on a captain who had lost hope and his crew.
This episode was a poor execution of genuine psychological issues associated with deep space isolation. It could have been represented in a far more effecient way, but the concept was still intruiging.
that's not unfair
At 10:00 you had me laughing so hard I fell off my chair! :D I never noticed that the Nova was not really made for entering a planet and Voyager was but they could not continue, I had to actually re-watch this today. So many mistakes the writers made, I am surprised they got away with even half of it. (Warp 10 anyone? That is a whole different story)
I always liked the Equinox eps. Wish they could have spread their appearances across multiple episodes. A Voyager enemy being seen as an ally of the Equinox would have been cool.
What you're missing is that they aren't in Federation space. Janeway is the superior officer. Star Fleet as far as they're concerned consists of two ships: Voyager and the Equinox. She is Star Fleet command in this situation. And Chakotey can't just relieve her of duty without worrying about what the repercussions will be for him down the line. He still has to live with her, essentially. There is no escape.
We also need to take a moment and mourn Titus Welliver's hair. RIP.
Well the equinox Captain and crew should have been quarantined until the ship was checked and when the problem was found take what they needed and leave the crew to the aliens that they pissed off.
Ok, I've watched your vid and digested your opinion....You raise some good points! While I will say Captain Janeway should have handled the situation better. I still support Captain Janeway.
The Nova was “designed for... terraforming missions”, so by conjecture atmospheric entry makes sense... why an intrepid can’t follow is a stretch but still arguable seeing as the Nova can probably enter more kinds of atmospheres (terraforming)
So Ransom killed space dolphins to get his people home. Janeway killed him and destroyed a federation vessel that would have been a benefit to have along. Space activism.
I'm not sure Chakotay could remove her from duty. he isn't a full commander, he would need the CMO to approve the releiving of duty as wel, which would mean Janeway stayed in charge until that point, which didnt help the situtation he was trying to stop.
Based on the episode Janeway should have been court-martialed, stripped of her rank, and put in jail NOT promoted to Vice-Admiral (jumping THREE ranks, which I'm QUITE sure is UNHEARD OF). Torturing and threatening a fellow Starfleet officer? Tsk. Tsk. Sisko did some PRETY questionable things, but not THAT.
Sisko killed two innocent people and is responsible for hundreds of thousands of romulan deaths and he poision the biosphere of a planet. lets not act like Sisko is a bed of roses.
Sisko saved millions, maybe BILLIONS of Federation lives.
birdoprey5 While probably betraying the principles of the Federation with the methods he used to "persuade" the Romulans to join the war. If the Federation were somehow incarnated into a person, do you REALLY think he/she would approve of HOW Sisko "saved" him/her? There's only so far you can go down THAT road before BEING Section 31, a group for whom "The Federation is ALWAYS right" and "The ends justify the means" basically ARE the group's guiding principles. Bashir SAYS as much in "Inter Enim Silent Leges".
saquist never said he was. In fact, the darkness and moral ambiguity of DS9 makes it my favorite Trek series. I mean, I LOVE the idealism of TNG too, but it got QUITE preachy at times.
saquist and HE probably should have been court-martialed TOO, IF Starfleet knew what he did, except for the whole "he's now a god and we can't find him" thing. Convenient much? Kirk was court-martialed for losing an officer under mysterious circumstances and some sources indicate Picard was subject to AUTOMATIC/MANDATORY court-martial for losing Stargazer, but Sisko gets nada? Come on.
Sometimes bad is needed to defeat bad.
I'm sure the damage to the Equinox nacelle will just buff out.
Yeah, the writing of Janeway was terribly inconsistent. This was one of those times where she was written as hypocritical monster. But I don't think Janeway had the self understanding to realize that. I think Ransom could have been an interesting character to watch, something like Janeway would have been if Year of Hell had been season long instead of a two parter. But both Captains had been too proud and stubborn
All thoses spare parts lost.
Sisko was a hero and very probably saved the alpha quadrant from the dominion.
What about the option of re-modulating the shield frequencies? Was that technology not available at the time?
If you're talking about Equinox's EMH, he was constantly sending in the frequencies, so even if they remodulated he would just update 'em.
Could you do a critique of Space Battleship Yamato 2199. Would love to hear your thoughts on it
You made the argument that Chakotay was a poor XO for not relieving Janeway of command because she was emotionally compromised but if you remember Commodore Decker assumed command of the Enterprise over McCoy's objections to Spock to which Decker pointed out that Spock was following regulations until Spock pointed out that Decker could be relieved of command due to his continued and suicidal attack on the Planet Killer.
What did you say about GOD SISKO? For shame...tsk...tsk.
I HAVE FAILED YOU
Plus thiose were colonists that vwere illegally on that planet.plus they were terorists.that used wmds on a cardasian planet.and they allso atacked federation ships.So i shed no tears for them.
Haha God Sisko. Just say The Sisko, or The Sisko of Bajor
Agent Lithium But God Sisko has more oomph!
Agent Lithium Or Brother Benny! Haha
I've been drawing blueprints of a variant of nova class, more reminiscent of the Rhode Island from the last episode of voyager. it is designed as a 3 story house propped up on 4 support beams (designed to look like landing struts) I'm trying to build a physical model of it out of sheets of 1/16th inch foam construction board but keep getting distracted by life. ya ya of course it'll cost a few million to build in real life, but who knows....
What the Equinox has gone through up to the point of this episode would have made for a much more exciting show than what we got with the ever self-repairing Voyager.