P muticus Husbandry Revisited (A Surprising Development)
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- I spend a lot of time talking about and giving advice on the tarantula husbandry tricks and techniques that work for me, and sometimes I worry that the fact that I'm still actively researching and learning about these creatures gets lost in the shuffle. The fact is, after years of keeping tarantulas, I still watch dozens of videos and read dozens of articles and forum posts about them a week. Although it's easy to take the "well, this works for me" approach and assume that any success can be attributed to you being "right" in what you do, I believe that this can lead to complacency and can prohibit keepers from advancing their skills.
I hope this video will illustrate a very important point. When you hear about someone doing something that sounds different or bizarre to you, it's always important to do some research, seek other points of view, and see if something useful can be gleaned from this new perspective.
As for why they have this issue, I've given some thought to that as well. It makes me think that we're missing something in how they live in the wild. They are known to construct very deep burrows, so I'm thinking that in their natural habitat they find plenty of things to eat underground. I'm sure there are plenty of worms, grubs, and such to fill them up when they are smaller. This would mean they could stay safely underground while they grow and avoid putting themselves in situations on the surface where THEY can become the prey. If that's the case, then what other keepers and I have been experiencing would make total sense. After all, they're not going to find bugs, worms, and grubs in the substrate of their artificial enclosures.
A sincere thanks to Deadly Tarantula girl for posting her provocative video on P. muticus care and to Jerum Distura for sharing his experiences with this species. Although I will continue to give my fossorial species plenty of substrate, her video gave me a new perspective on this issue.
Tom, you just saved a whole bunch of fassorials from a slow agonizing death. Your open-mindedness and willingness to share the results of your hard work, research & experience is extremely generous and helpful. Thanks so much for helping someone newly returned to the hobby from making a slew of mistakes. You and your channel are gems. I especially like your idea of going to approx 4 inches of substrate. I see the benefit of very shallow substrate, since an opaque lid will act like a covered tunnel. But, every time the cover is opened it will seem, to the T, as if their burrow was just ripped open & stress them out. OBTs are already moody enough. But, by going to approx 4 inches, you give them the privacy they need when opening the enclosure's cover while making it easier to give them the care & food that they need. Thanks again
Hello, Lou! Thank you so very much for this wonderful comment! I've been experimenting over the years to find that happy medium in terms of how much substrate to give fossorial species. Like you said, the trick is to give them enough to feel secure, but not so much that they bury themselves. OBTs are definitely ones you want to give some extra room to. I have mine set up almost semi-arboreally, and she is completely fine.
Hi Tom, my muticus just ate its first roach for six month. Without your video, i would never have done this. THANK YOU for maybe saving my tarantulas life.
That's so awesome. I'm so glad that this was helpful! I was worried that I was going to get torn apart when I posted it, but it sounds like many others have experienced the same issues. Thanks again!
Cheers Tom so pleased I saw this as I have just bought my first P muticus . You are worth your weight in gold
Congrats! And thank you so much! My last was a male, so I need to get another now!
I got my 2 king baboon too Tom, they're just about a 1.5 - 2inches and i am having trouble in feeding them. They close their burrow about 3weeks without eating and drinking water. Thanks to this video it calmed myself from panicing 😂
I'm SO GLAD to hear that this video helped out! I hope that they are doing well now!
Thank you sooooooo much Tom!!!! I got a 1 1/4 king baboon not too long ago, and again. It did the same damn thing, dug deap down in the substance and sealed off it's burrow. Never did it come up to eat or drink. 2 months went by and I decided to dig it up. Thankfully it was still alive. However, it was awfully skinny and looked weak. I made some adjustments were I put a paper towel roll in there so it already had a burrow, and I could see it. I also felt like that way it would be easier to drop pray down in there. Long story short, no luck at all. It still wouldn't eat, and it's starting to seal it off. I'm going to do this instead. I feel like this will be the answer. Thanks again!!!
Hello! First off, so sorry for the delay! I'm so glad that this was helpful. Since posting it, I've had a LOT of people come forward and say that they experienced the same thing with their juveniles and slings (adults seem to be fine). Hopefully, this works for you. Good luck!
I love the fact that you make these kinds of videos that most others wouldnt make; most would just go with what's generally accepted as suitable husbandry. The fact that you actually analyse and put thought into new ideas is great. Thanks for the video☺
Thanks so much for the kind words! :) I try to keep my husbandry up to date, and if I find something that I feel is important, I always like to share it (even if it contradicts common practice or something I've said before). I'm really glad that so many folks have come out in the comments to say they've experienced the same thing. I kind of put it out there in hopes that others might share their experiences. Thanks again!!
Thank you!! I've been having the same problem with my P.muticus as well, I have put a little less substrate in and now they're eating great and not going so long without eating and drinking! Thank you and Tarantula girl?? For the excellent advice!!
I'm so glad that this was helpful, Roy! I think a lot of us experienced this, so it's nice to finally have a solution. :)
I have 3.75 inch female P. muticus. She used to cover her burrow consistently and I would open it up throw a cricket or a roach and she'd immediately attack and consume her prey. More recently she skips covering her burrow entirely unless she's going to molt. She is an active hunter now with an open entrance, where she lies in wait. I'll throw an adult cricket in her enclosure and she will come out of her burrow completely to hunt it. She's super fun to watch. This is not a boring species if you don't create their habitat as if it was a vacuum. She loves to eat and I could easily over feed her. She lives in about 8 inches of substrate with a large piece of half buried cork bark for the scaffolding and support of her entrance. She has an elaborate burrow but she mostly hangs out at the entrance with her legs sticking out. She is very healthy looking a nice bright brown/burgundy and thick back legs relative for her size and could possibly be borderline overweight at this point.
Very good point on taking in consideration the different viewpoints on how to raise different species. If it works, keep doing it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Research different ways people care for their ts. This vid was very helpful! I greatly appreciate it. I once had a sling P. muticus die on me. Now I am raising one that is a little larger. I will take your words as sound ideas. :)
I think that's the thing. There's a lot of room for variation in how we keep tarantulas, and they are an incredibly adaptive animal. I feel that people have success keeping them one way, and assume that it's the "right" way. That's not always the case. I, personally, wouldn't keep a fossorial species on just a couple inches of substrate as I feel that they need the burrows to settle in and feel secure. That said, I've spoken to some keepers that keep burrowing species on shallow substrate with no issues (other than cranky spiders. :) ). Although I have my opinion on the matter, it's not my place to tell these guys their "wrong", as they are having just as much success as I am. I do, however, consider why it might work both ways and see if there is something useful I can take from it.
Those two slings I lost killed me because I had NEVER lost two from the same species before. It meant that husbandry-wise, I had missed something. It was only after watching this other video that I got to thinking maybe these guys won't come back up. Maybe they actually can bury themselves and starve to death (something I constantly tell those new to the hobby not to fret over because in most cases, it's normal behavior). So, I broke character and opened up the burrows, and it proved to be a prudent move. They've both eaten four times since that video was shot, and they are fattening up nicely. And, after posting this one, several folks have come forward saying that they've experienced the same issue, and many had started keeping them on more shallow substrate or have resorted to opening the burrows. A couple had ones that were currently buried that they will now try feeding through the den entrances. I think that's the best part about UA-cam...we can all compare notes and share info that makes us better keepers. :)
Hey Marilynn... How is the King Baboon soing now? Any more updates?
Hey Tom I got a King Baboon 1/4 inch sling and I did what you said here I housed it differently then I do my other larger fossorial species and mine is doing great eating growing Iam so happy so because of your information I believe it really saved my baby baboon because it wasn’t eating until I took a lot of substrate out !
Tom how is your Vietnam Blue doing ?
I'm so glad to hear that! I'm so glad that I put this video up. as a LOT of people have come forward with the same issue (mostly with slings and juveniles). I experienced this with four of mine; two slings and two juveniles. It doesn't happen all the time, but enough that people should be cognizant of it. Thanks again!
Hi, Nicole! Unfortunately, she was one of the tarantulas I lost due to tainted bags of topsoil. The stuff was contaminated with something (I'm thinking herbicide or pesticide), and I lost a bunch of animals that I rehoused on it. It was terrible.
Great video!
I rehoused mine (small juv) a few days ago (3 1/2 X 4 1/2 amac box) and the next day it made a burrow deep to the bottom and along the side.
A couple of days later I place a headless superworm on top.
It took it down to its burrow and ate.
The next day it took it right up all nice and neat.
Thank you for recording your experience and making my education easier! ✌🏽
Hello, Ricardo! I'm so glad that this was useful to you! Thank you so much (and sorry for my lateness in replying!).
I know this is an older video but I wondered if you'd ever do an update on these? I just got a King sling myself and was wondering what kind of setup you landed on. Thanks for all the great content.
Hello! I ended up putting them both in containers about half that high. Both did fine after that, and unfortunately, both were male. The adults seem fine with deeper substrate. As for slings and juveniles, you want to give them enough depth to burrow, but not so much that they get lost at the bottom. Thanks!
Interesting, I don't have one of these yet, and principally because fossorials are definitely outside my wheelhouse. However I have just ventured into the "old world" group of Ts and now am actively seeking the benefit of the experience of others who have successfully raised them. I wouldn't have thought to keep a "feeding" opening for these guys. Thanks Tom.
Hey, Tony! Yeah, this one was a bit of a shocker. I was glad that I posted it, as many other keepers came forward with the same experience. The thought now is that in the wild, they would find prey under the ground and wouldn't have to surface as slings and juveniles. Thanks, bud!
I definitely recommend trying old world for sorrels when you had enough experience, it really does a person good who loves tarantulas to experience all types of tarantulas. Good for you! And really good luck.❤
I was considering getting a juvi King Baboon female and I would have done the exact same as you had: Leaving the spider alone if it had closed off the burrow entrance. Thanks for relaying this information, Tom!
Sorry for the delayed reply! Yes, I learned that lesson the hard way with some slings. I'm honestly so glad that I took the chance and opened up those dens!
A bit late to the discussion here but here is a thought. The soils of east Africa are teaming with much insect life such as grubs. Maybe in its natural habitat enough pre wanders into their burrow to allow them to pretty much sustain a fossorial life until they are large enough to be formidable on the surface.
Just got my 1st king baboon sling today. I will be keeping this video in mind...
That's awesome, Chris! I had three slings dig all the way down in 32 oz deli cups, closer their burrows, and not come up for food. The more this topic was discussed, we realized that in the wild, they would encounter prey in their burrows (something that doesn't happen in captivity). I would just keep an eye on them to make sure that they are eating, and don't overdo it with the substrate depth.
Some part of me wonders if, due to the nature of the enclosures with their clear walls, these tarantulas get confused by being able to see the light inside their tunnels and think they're on the surface and simply never think to burrow back up to the top. Perhaps starting a small burrow in the middle of the enclosure and providing a hide on top would cause them to burrow there and avoid the whole issue... I have a similar issue with my Desert Hairy scorpion. Little beast created an intricate tunnel network up against the glass walls of the enclosure and will sit in there facing out in a defensive posture for most of the day. The difference is, when it gets hungry, it sits at the mouth of the burrow with its claws on display, and it's learned that food will be delivered when it sits like that.
I wish there was a way we could talk to the animals and learn what they're thinking so we could adapt our keeping strategies to better suit their needs.
That's a really good thought, Sergei! Since this video, we've since discussed that, in the wild, these spiders would encouter prey items under the ground. As a result, they wouldn't need to surface to get food. I wish we could talk to them, too!
Great video Tom and one of the topics that I just lost a T over. I lost my OBT due to "Letting it be" because so many people were messaging me saying you shouldn't tear apart your T's home. "let it be" and it will be fine. Fact is I have found this to be as far from the truth as can be. In the wild these animals as you stated in your description eat lots of under ground prey as they are there. In captivity they are not there and their natural instinct leads them to certain death in our care. So tear up them burrows if you have to. I never let my T's go more than 3 weeks without seeing them eat. and never more than a few days without changing their water dishes or providing my tiny slings with misting.
That being said there are more worries to having a deep burrower than just feeding. You also have to take into consideration that there is not the proper amount of cleaner organisms in a captive enclosure even if you add some. So in my opinion it is best to keep it shallow and manually care for your T the way nature does. The biggest issues in a plastic or glass enclosure is that water does not filter out naturally and in turn will cause fungus and mold growth that will kill your T right away. In the wild these spiders will leave their burrows after a short while and search out new residence. They rarely stay in one spot for long.
I got tired of hearing other people tell me to leave my T's alone and that tearing up their hard built webs and burrows just to see if they are ok or to clean or feed is stressful on them. Well, I am sad to say I listened and lost my OBT due to fungus. That nasty yellow fungus. I will never do that again. From ths point on I do the work of those microscopic creatures that take care of T's in the wild myself. They will rebuild as they do in the wild constantly. Orb web spiders rebuild their webs sometimes 3 or 4 times per day. It will not harm them to rebuild, but it will kill them if they are subject to harmful organisms that are normally dealt with in nature.
A little tip for house cleaning. when you are in there changing their water and cleaning out left over bits of food etc....... smell the enclosure! Yes I said smell it. A fungus or mold will be easily detected by doing this. If you smell what smells like a mushroom, empty out that enclosure that minute. do not wait until tomorrow. Fungus grows at incredible rates and if you see a bit of mycelium growth you can guarantee there is 80% more under the substrate. But if you can smell it, it is well taken hold of your T's home and it needs to be cleaned out fast. Do not hesitate to rinse off your T with bottled water (never tap) when doing one of these fungus clean outs, as the spores will be on the T and if they get into the book lungs, occasionally the fungus will grow inside your T. and then it is lights out for your beloved little friend. These little spores however cannot enter through the mouth as it is very very highly filtered.
I have a couple videos you may want to consider watching. Very interesting wild Tarntula exploration by some well know hobbyists listed below along with the videos.
Enjoy and thank you for this insightful video! Thumbs up as always.
Led by arachnohistorian Andrew M. Smith
Michael Jacobi
Andrew's British
Paul Carpenter of Life in the Rainforest and his younger brother Mark Carpenter
In Search of Costa Rican Tarantulas - Part 1
ua-cam.com/video/2KQsusHO6yc/v-deo.html
In Search of Costa Rican Tarantulas - Part 2
ua-cam.com/video/Z2B3oD7seUI/v-deo.html
Michael Jacobi
ua-cam.com/users/ExoticFauna
I think you bring up some excellent points and some issues all tarantula keepers should think about and be cognizant of. This is absolutely a hobby for the observant type because, like you said, you have to be able to recognize the difference between your T acting "normal" and your spider exhibiting behavior that you find troublesome. In the instance of your OBT, it sounds like your observations and instincts told you that there was an issue (and, as it turned out, there was). It's all about knowing your animals enough to recognize when something is off...and acting if the situation dictates. If I didn't open the dens to feed these two (something I've never had to do with any of my animals), they would have died. I'm convinced of it. Sometimes in this hobby, it's necessary to break some of the "rules" to ensure that our animals are okay.
Great stuff! Now, I'm off to check out those videos. Thanks!
Thanks Tom, this was great.
I was Chatting to Dave (Eerie Arachnids) about this the other day too. He had the same... T dug down, sealed the burrow and never came back up.. ended ip dying... I have just bought a sling and will be taking very seriously what youve said here. Natural vs Captivity environments can have very different behavioral patters in the same species... Very very helpful video... Thanks mate.
Thanks, bud! Yeah, after putting this video up, a LOT of people confessed that they had experienced the same issue. I'm guessing that in the wild, they find plenty of prey in their burrows. Thanks bud! :)
@@TomsBigSpiders No prob at all.. My baby gets here in two days... MAN am I looking forward to it....
Thanks for always replying and chatting to me. Means a lot that you put that effort in..
..
Glad I found this video. I just got a P. muticus sling. So far hasn't shown any interest at all in burrowing so maybe I got a weird one, but I will definitely keep this video in mind for when it does.
Are the bottom layers of substrate moist? That can sometimes get them burrowing. There's a lot out there that says they need it dry, but in the wild, slings will burrow down to more moist earth. Also, you can give them starte burrows to give them a place to start digging. Just some thoughts! You might have both of these already.
@@TomsBigSpiders so literally today it has dug a burrow. It obviously knew I'd written this comment and wanted to make me look like a fool.
The love in the tarantula community is awesome! Thank you, Tom! I also sub to Exotics Lair, Dark Den, and MANY more!
It really is fascinating to watch. And great channels. :)
I just bought and received my first king baboon and I keep it in substrate just deep enough to burrow but not too deep. I did have to clear it’s burrow to make sure it ate and it did. Thanks for the video. My advice is to look for signs of premolt and determine if you should intervene. If it matters mine is a 1” sling
I just picked one of these up at an expo, definitely good info to keep in mind, thanks
Congrats, Justin!
Coming back to comment 2 years later, I almost lost this t because it never comes up for water, I thought it was dead so I dug it up, its now on the surface drinking from its dish, I was always weary of flooding its burrow so I would only mist so much, now I guess I'm going to make sure water reaches its burrow at least every other misting
Thanks for that video, Tom. This is how you've got me subscribed. Saw this video a couple of weeks ago and since then I've been using it as a reference in discussions. You see... I've kept my P. muticus for 11 years (back when it was a good old C. crawshayi haha) and my fellow T keepers have been roasting me for keeping it in a slightly shallower substrate... I keep all my fossorials in some vertical enclosures with a lot of substrate and I literally NEVER have issues feeding them. Either they hang out by the entrance to their burrow or (in case of H. gigas), they just actively go on a hunt at slightest sign of a presence of a prey. Not this beauty, though. I used to keep it in a deep substrate and eventually it simply blocked the entrance, molted and resisted to show any signs of activity. I'd resisted for 5 months until I finally opened up her burrow and at this point I'm sure you understand how hungry she was. I said it was enough and I put her in an enclosure similar to the type presented by Deadly Tarantula Girl - although the substrate is still a bit deeper. Instead of vertical tunnels, my P. muticus dug a horizontal system of tunnels with 3 exits at different sides of the enclosure. What can I say? Transfers? Easy. Threat pose - what's that even? Feeding? She could use some diet... eating pre-molt is a bit too much for me to accept ;) ;). Even her growth sped up, simply because back again, she ate regularly. I'd never keep any of my other fossorials in such conditons as they've never had any issues (maybe despite transfers and visibility but that's my problem not their's as they health is my priority). I was actually quite surprised other T lovers have similar issues I had with this one. Learning is a fascinating process ;).
First off, thanks so much. Honestly, since posting this, I've been amazed at the number of people I've spoken to who experienced the same issue. When I posted this, I honestly thought that I might get skewered by those who would be horrified by the thought of not giving a P. muticus deep substrate, but instead I got the opposite. It seems there is a widespread issue with them burying themselves and not resurfacing, and some folks have even lost specimens after resisting the urge to dig them up. And, like you, mine have been doing MUCH better since I rehoused them. Thanks again!
My king baboon did the exact same thing and I wasn't sure if it was normal or not. So glad to have found this video.
Yeah, since posting this, I've heard from dozens of people who have experienced the same thing. I'm glad that it's not just me, too! haha
Hey Tom, I'm of the opinion that with this sp it makes absolutly no difference weather you provide 2" or 2' of substrate because they will sit on the plastic base either way, I think that in the wild they most likely feed on burrowing insects and earth worms that drop into their burrows, I got mine as a sling and had exactly the same thing happen as you did but when she had not eaten for 3 months I opened the burrow entrance and dropped a super worm in which she ate and from then on I would drop in a worm or dubia roach every fortnight or so and she grew steadily with no issues, the only reason I no longer have her is I decided I did no longer want to keep the fosoreal sp so sold her, bad idea as now I think I shall look for another!
That's exactly the conclusion I came to. I've rehoused mine, and they are doing MUCH better. I do think that they like to have enough sub to hide and dig in, but it doesn't need to be overly deep. Hopefully, this way of keeping them will catch on, because I've had many people come forward and say that they've lost ones that they gave deep substrate! Thanks, John!
great video Tom ..I just picked up a sling over a month ago and it's eaten 3 times for me but I went to feed it on my last feeding video and it had closed of both its entrences so I didn't feed it ..I could see it from the side if it's enclosure and it doesn't look like it's in pre molt. ..so I will keep a close eye on it and if I need to I will open up its holes and feed it ...once again thanks for doing what u do ☺
Let me know, if you could, how it turns out. I considered my experience with my first two slings one of my biggest failures while in the hobby. I don't lose many Ts, never mind two of the same species just weeks apart. I wish I had know this info back then as I would have taken the chance and dropped some prey in. I know some folks don't have this problem with the P. muticus, but I'm hearing from many who have. I'm just glad I saw that video and the comment that got me thinking I should try something I would never have thought of previously. I'm SO glad to hear that this might be of help to you! Thanks again!
+Tom Moran sorry about u losing ur first two ...I will keep u posted on how I deal with it ...this is on of the reasons I love doing this on UA-cam ...we get to shear what we do with others in the Hobby and get to help each other out ☺
Yes, it is already heart braking losing two let alone one and am very sorry as well for your loss.. But hey, we actually learned a lot from this experience what you've discussed about in your video, and just goes to shows a small glimps of a King Baboon's lifestyle out in the wild lol
I agree completely. The best part of UA-cam is that you get to see what others are doing, which is invaluable. I'll be keeping an eye out for an update! :)
Yup, this turned into an amazing learning experience! And I definitely feel like I have a better grasp of how its life in the wild would lead to this behavior. Thanks!
It is indeed always good to keep up to date on the latest husbandry. A constantly evolving (thankfully) subject.
I normally don't wade into the controversial stuff, and I've long argued against keeping fossorial species in shallow substrate (this seems to be practiced mostly by folks who complain that they "want to see them" or don't have the space for a deep containers). That said, I had been having difficulty with these guys, so the video and comment got me thinking. I would still not house them terrestrially, but it made me realize that just taking a hands-off approach and leaving them in their burrows might not be the right thing to do in this case. Suffice it to say, I won't be hesitating to put roaches down in the burrows now (something I would NEVER do and never had to do with my other fossorials).
+Tom Moran well, when you have the choice between digging open their tunnel to feed them and them starving,dig away. I don't see the controversy in keeping them alive. After all,you didn't dig them out,you opened the door. Glad you found a way to feed them,stubborn critters.
Thanks so much, Jane! I'm glad that I took the chance and went for it as this will likely prove very important with this species.
+Tom Moran well,if they prefer home delivered food 😎why not humor them
I'm the spider version of Dominoes! :)
My 2 KING BABOON TARANTULAS actually put a "LID" on their burrows and I move it and feed them and then they rebuild it. Not sure if they know what they are doing but it works for both of us.❤❤❤
Ha! That's awesome, Roy!
Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do for the TARANTULA'S own good 👍 I LOVE my KING BABOON TARANTULAS, and they are very healthy and happy. I've had to dig my burrows up but it's just the end and they eat voraciously ❤❤❤❤
Well said, Roy.
I have one obt sling and I thank you for this video. I'm a beginner keeper and this is my first old world. I want to do everything I can for it.
You're most welcome! I love that species. Did you see my OBT vid? :)
I just experienced this with an A. seemanni that holed up for 3 months and never molted. Carefully opened it up and dropped in a roach and she grabbed it immediately. Her burrow is against the acrylic so I was certain she wasnt molting. Since that day, she regularly visits the surface like she did prior.
Hello, Chris! I've had it happen with a G. pulchra sling as well. It doesn't happen often, but it's always something to keep an eye out for. I just try not to give any of my slings so much dirt that they get lost.
Thank you, my P. muticus arrives next week. I want her to be healthy, and I may rethink my enclosure.
You're most welcome! Since posting this, I've heard from a lot of folks who experienced the same thing. It's something to keep in mind and to look out for. :)
Don't be afraid to experiment with the tarantulas. They've been existing for millions of years and have gone through extreme weather changes. I'm sure they're able to adapt to captivity.
They can definitely adapt, but if kept improperly, they can be more stressed and defensive.
Hey tom, this is my first time commenting on your vids and i just wanna say that i love your vids. I also have a juvenile king baboon and i love her so much, named her McQueen. Thanks for spreading new information into the hobby. Keep up the great work! Anyway, post some updates of these two. Thanks! ;)
Hello, Raymund! Thanks so much for posting, and for the very kind words. :) LOVE the name. And I'll definitely post some updates soon. One just matured...it's a boy!
I did have to dig up my lividum/lividus (no matter what way I say it someone yells at me😅)
It was a 2 part issue. #1 her web sock was filthy. After watching one of your vids about that it got me wondering if maybe it was time for a rehouse. #2 She had molted 3 months prior and hadn't come up to eat. She also was not visable. Needless to say when I did the rehouse she ate 4 supers & 2 crickets, she was very skinny & she somehow got herself "stuck" everyone says that can't happen. When I housed her all was well, she would throw her legs out her burrow, tell me she was hungry or I would test her burrow & she would then give a feeding response. Normal until she sealed off to molt. During that process I added leaf litter & the other contents for a springtail colony to thrive. I did it opposite side of her burrow even. I'm still not sure what happened (maybe the sub settled??) But her burrow was totally closed off. & you could see where she was trying to burrow in other directions & giving up (weak from her molt maybe?) All I know is she was hungry & couldn't get out. She was also several inches underground. I imagine in the wild worms & such will be digging as well, acting as a food source. When we keep them the only food is what we place on top.
I feel I gave her adequate time to come up. 3 months after seeing a molt in the corner was enough time for me to feel I had to intervene. Not advising anyone to do so. Trust your instincts I would say. Not paranoia but common sense. I just kept getting a bad feeling about it that I could no longer put off as "needless worry"
She's been successfully rehoused, dug a new burrow & is perfectly fine now. Thanks Tom for all you do!
I'm not going to yell...I just talked about this in a podcast. haha I've had some hang underground and not come back up. I don't know if they get stuck or just think that they are going to encounter prey underground (like you said). I think that some can dig so deeply, that they can no longer detect prey on the surface. I think that most of the time, there is no need to worry. HOWEVER, what does it really hurt if your concerned and you dig it up to check on it? Thank so much!
@@TomsBigSpiders that's my thought process as well. I imagine in the wild they have to rebuild from time to timeso I figure what's the harm. I didn't want to be in constant stress about her either so it was for my peace of mind as well.
Thanks Tom, I'm toying with the idea of getting a p muticus myself.
Great species! I have to get another sling, as my last two were male.
@@TomsBigSpiders What's their temperament like, are they actually as bad as people say?
@@bentennyson2398 In my experience, if given the room to dig, they aren't bad at all. They would much rather hide in their burrows than stand their ground and fight. The ones I've seen that are nasty are generally being kept as terrestrials on shallow substrate.
My P. Muticus has burrowed and have no entrance, but I can easily see her. I always thought that as long as they are plump they are ok not eating. Thanks.
Hello! If it's fat, it may just be hiding for premolt.
@@TomsBigSpiders Thank you, sir.
Hi Tom, I did the same with my 1/2" sling, it burrowed immediately, after its first moult when it did not come out to feed I made a hole with a pencil and pushed a locust in, that was in march 16, after that I did this weekly, it's now 3"+ and has had to be rehoused in a 19l rub where it did the exact same thing so once a month I open her burrow and drop an adult male dubia in and she's on them in seconds, as you said this is the only factorial sp I have to do this with but it deffo works!
I'm so glad people are chiming in on this one. In all of my reading up on this species, I'd never heard of this issue until recently. It's making me feel much better about this hearing from folks like yourself who keep them and have found that you, too, have to put prey items in for them. This is definitely a huge husbandry issue for folks keeping this species, and not one I'm sure many are aware of.
+Tom Moran I fond it works and that's all that matters to me, if that's helps others keep this sp. too then alls good. As for this sp. being slow growing it's no wonder if they won't feed for people but mines grown from a half inch sling to 3" plus in 4 months.
Yup, I agree. And I, too, am wondering if their legendary slow growth rate stems from the fact that they don't eat. .5" to 3" in four months is fantastic. I'll be curious to see how mine grow now.
+Tom Moran I had an idea while at work today to drop a Morio worm in with the P. Muticus once a week and let it burrow down to the T then I come home and see that's already been discussed lol
I think everyone is mulling this one over and coming up with similar ideas and solutions...which is great! Thanks!
Just been given a king baboon sling.. So glad I come across this video as its certainly something to bear in mind as like others I would automatically give plenty of burrowing space.. & I hate loosing slings as well haha!
Hello, Nikky! I'm so glad that this was helpful. I wish I new this when I first got my slings.
Now that you mention it mine does the same thing. I put holes at the bottom so I can put worms threw the holes. I however don’t let the worm go from the tongs if burrow is sealed until T takes the prey.
That's a great idea! :)
I had an subadult female many years ago, back when they were still C. crawshayi. Mine did the same thing, buried to the bottom and never saw her again. The point you made about your other fossorial species and surfacing for food and water, but your P. muticus hadn't reminded me of a discussion about this and few people were grilled for opening up their "C. crawshayi" burrow openings. I noticed this behavior within months of her sealing up after a rehouse and I turned to the boards and saw this discussion. So I tried pouring small amounts of water down a small hole to see if she would react and low and behold, I could faintly see her and was drinking! So I then knew there must be something with them in in captivity and not thriving well on instinct. So I opened up the burrow seal dropped a cricket in and BAM, she ate it and three more thereafter! I tried rehousing to a shallower substrate and she didn't seal up the opening! There's definitely something to the husbandry of this T and the stresses of captivity. Excellent vid!
Man, that was a while ago! Such an amazing species, but one that I think we might be overthinking the husbandry on. There was a long discussion between some keepers and I about how long their burrows can be in the wild. There is a very good chance that they find food while digging and don't have to surface much. There are types of burrowing crickets and worms they could easily feed off of without having to surface. This would definitely explain why they are one of the few fossorial species that often doesn't seem to know to come to the top to hunt. Other keepers have noticed this as well, but many were afraid to speak out about it. So sad.
And I get EXACTLY what you're saying about getting destroyed on the boards for it. It's come to my attention that this video took quite the skewering on a message board when someone mentioned it. It's ridiculous. If we never open our minds to the possibility that there may be better ways to do things, we'll never improve the hobby. I actually wrote an article about this recently: tomsbigspiders.wordpress.com/2017/01/07/the-importance-of-respect-and-open-mindedness-in-the-tarantula-hobby/
It's long, so I don't blame you one bit if you don't read it haha, but you might get a kick out of it. I mention the P. muticus issue in it.
Great stuff!!! Thanks for commenting!
Tom Moran I think we for get about history an think we know everything which we don't conventional wesdom is not always right and all things must change at some point.
You have a good point about what some T's act differently in captivity than in nature. Perhaps in nature these burrowing T's especially this species eats insects that also burrow. If there are no burrowing insects they don't eat. They probably get the water they need from the insects they eat in nature. But in a captive habitat there is no such thing. I think you would be right to give them less substrate in which to burrow and make sure they are fed.
Exactly. I'm thinking that they probably don't even have to come out of their tunnels in the wild, so they're hardwired to stay below. My little guys were probably sitting there expecting the food to come to them. I wouldn't do this (nor have I had to) with any other species, but it seems that with the P. muticus, you have to drop prey into the burrow at times.
Tom Moran
There should be more about their wild habitat when you get them. This would make husbandry a great deal better. I know not everyone cares if the T is happy. As long as they feed it and it lives they think they are doing it right. But a long unhappy life is not one that anyone wants. These guys might burrow down next to ant hills or termite mounds. Then the food would be pouring into them. Why yours grabbed the two pieces of food. You are wise.
Great stuff,thank you 👍
Thank you!
I have an idea, I'm not sure how it will work but maybe give it a try.
In regards to what you stated in the description about worms and grubs. Maybe throw mealworms or nightcrawlers above the sub allowing them to dig, see if the make it to the burrow and some what hangout of it. You could even possible create a self feeding enclosure using a potting soil, oak leaf, cocoa fibre mix. The nightcrawler could leave and breed while feeding the T.
Btw, I can't tell you how much I respect you for doing this. A lot of people will not go back on what they have said before to try something and will often criticize others that do. Really nice to see that you would rather look out for the well being of your T's and try something new instead of letting them wither away without any attempts.
It's funny, because my wife and I were just talking about adding worms or meal worms to the P. muticus' enclosures to see if that would help. It would definitely be something worth trying.
And thanks so much! I try to give the most up to date info possible, and I really felt that if I didn't share this experience, along with the fact that I went against what I usually say and opened up the burrows to feed them, I'd be a bit of hypocrite. I'm really glad that I did, as others have apparently noticed the same behavior and have resorted to similar tactics. I always put the health of my animals first, so I'm very glad that I gave it a shot.
Thanks, bud!
Actually, that's a great idea. I just worry about a super worm biting the T if it happens to be molting.
Great information! will take that into account! thank you
That's exactly what happened to my Hadrurus Arizonensis(Giant Desert Hairy) scorpion. It sealed up it's hide and didn't come out for a long time. I had a lot of sand and clay mix in there, because they like to burrow. I had to finally dig him up, and he died. Anytime I fed him, I had to open up his burrow and chase a cricket in. Sometimes he would eat, but most times not. H. Arizonensis are a species of scorpion from Arizona and New Mexico that have been know to dig up to 13 feet in the ground to get the exact humidity levels to molt or "hybernate" for the winter season. This is why they are so hard to keep in captivity, and I wouldn't recommend them to any hobbyists. They have the highest rate of dying during molting in captivity. With your spider, I would have recommended a lower substrate level, like Deadlytarantulagirl said, to actually prevent them from burrowing -- set up hides for them to crawl under, but give them enough substrate to give them digging enjoyment, like 2 inches. Trust me, they don't know the difference of how deep they are. I have a Parabuthus Liosoma(African Black Tip) scorpion that likes to burrow, and he just keeps digging up the same burrow, over and over until he hits the plastic bottom. Sometimes, I chase him out and fill it in again, so he can enjoy digging it up again -- like a mouse on a treadmill lol He's doing great. I think sometimes animals like your spider, actually start digging and lose track of direction, and can't find their way out -- like a cat going up a tree and he's too scared to come down. Cheers
It sounds like a very similar situation with the H. Arizonensis scorpion quite frankly. Perhaps a good tip-off for knowing when fossorial species might experience this issue of not coming up to get food is looking at the burrow depth. P. muticus are known for constructing long burrows, so logic would seem to dictate that they should be given as much depth to dig as possible. And, it sounds as if the H. Arizonensis does a very similar thing. The point I think that keepers are missing is that when they dig that far, they are likely not returning to the surface often (not to mention the hot temps folks recommend they be kept at are probably not so hot in those burrows). I currently keep about many fossorial species of tarantulas, and I've had no issues giving them plenty of room to dig. This is the first species I've encountered with. Although I won't keep it as a terrestrial, I will be giving them enclosures with much less substrate to prevent them from getting lost. Great stuff...thanks!
tom what about the idea of maybe letting the spiders keep their borrows and i have often wondered what it would be like ot insert a tube somewhere in the burrow away from the door that we could drop food into. it would still make it down to them but keep their burrows closed
Hi, Bryan! I definitely wouldn't take the burrows away; I'd just be careful not to give them so much substrate that they get "lost" at the bottom. Give them room to dig, but not so much that they can't detect prey.
Hi Tom, Actually did this EXACT same thing (tho I use crix) w/my P. muticus s'lings when I realized that, nope, they weren't going to come up/out when they get hungry. Only fossorial I have that I do this with and it ocurred to me that maybe (total SWAG) that in natural environment, they don't NEED to come up for prey to show up in their burrows.
Found your vids this afternoon and was wondering if you have any updates? Did you end up changing your setups (maybe I missed an update)? Learned anything else?
This is my favorite of all Ts. Been enamored with them since the 90s so... anything I can learn from other keepers is great! TIA!
Hi, Lisa! I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one to experience this. I've since had it happen a couple other times with species that I gave too much substrate. I DID change the setups, and both ate much better and matured out male within a year or so.
for my 2 x p, muticus (slings) i just half filled the enclosure with substrate, had them for 10 months now & there eating well !
there have pleanty of substrate to dig & burry but also pleanty of room to walk abought on top.
(i belive a good balance is the key )
It seems that this is one those cases where trying to replicate their natural habitat by giving as much substrate as possible seems to be the wrong way to go. I have several fossorial species, and this is the only one I've experienced this issue with. Lesson learned!
I keep my king baboon in about three to five inches of substrate with a hide and it does fantastic kept that way. she has molted three times since. your right they will never sit at the entrance of its burrow to wait for food. so it switched it up from 8 to 10 inches to 3 to 5 with an hide. big difference.
I'm currently trying to decide if I will rehouse these into something with less substrate or just see how it goes with dropping the prey down the tunnel. I'm guessing if they actually eat, they might grow into those enclosures a little faster. :)
With the 3 to 5" of sub, has she settled in or is she still constantly remodeling?
Good info to know! I had never heard this, although I do know how DTG keeps her P. muticus specimens. My T has a hole down into its burrow that is always open. I just toss the food down & its eaten. Hmmmm....really good to know. These specimens can be expensive...don't wanna lose it.
Thanks! Don't get me wrong...I'm definitely not advocating that we should keep them as terrestrials. Having had this issue with two slings and two juveniles now, I just think that it's important for those who keep the P. muticus to be aware that they may bury themselves and not come up for food. This is different behavior and something I've never had to worry about with any of my other fossorial species. I'm guessing that with their long burrows in the wild, they may have to rarely come to the surface to hunt as the earth is probably teeming with prey.
I have to do this with my metriopelma sp barinas. It does not come up for water or food or for anything. Not sure if these tarantulas that act like lil ground hogs tend to feed and depend on insects or worms in the ground in the wild. I also make a small puddle in the entrance to give them a chance to drink which they always accept. Just a small puddle not a flood ..... My female uses left over wet soil to reinforce her tunnel as well. Also, I usually pre kill mealworms or crickets just in case they don't accept so I can fish it out easier.
Yeah I just fed my P.Muticus a pre-killed didnt fancy trying to fetch the cricket out. I suppose though worst case scenario you ruin the burrows and the T will just rebuild them..
I'm thinking that you hit the nail on the head; I'm guessing that some of these species find all the prey they need in their burrows. For most species, this never seems to be an issue; for some, however, it's definitely something that needs to be considered. And that's a really good idea about dropping the prekilled in. Thanks!
Yessss, i seen this exact info somewhere n thought BS.....my 1" sling is in a 4x4x7 with 4" of substrate, its a lil big but he was a surprise freebie n all i had on hand.....guna see where this goes....how do you kerp the substrate tom? Damp dry, figured fossorial so i got mine a lil on the damp side
Since posting this video, I've had a lot of folks say that they experienced the same issue with slings and juveniles. I keep the bottom layer moist, and they seemed to appreciate it.
@@TomsBigSpiders awesome, i dampened the bottom inch with 3" of dry on top, seems to like it, other then the pre dug burrow, didnt want anything to do with it😂😂 ill make my hole over here in the corner😂😂 thanks man, keep up with the great informative videos🖒
It is amazing how difficult it is to find information on a tarantula's natural habitat. From what I have gathered they live in something like a scrubland that doesn't have a lot of trees. Lots of grasses and small plants. Excellent habitat for termites. Could they live and dig near termite tunnels feeding as needed? If so the food source is so abundant, they would never have to surface but to mate. Other critters use termite colonies and tunnels as highways to beat the heat of east african days. I could easily see the King feasting on lizards and small rodents that wander into the wrong den.
I can't tell you how many times I've spent hours trying to find info out on a particular species and come up with little to nothing. And, in some instances, what you mind might not directly apply to captivity. I agree completely in that it likely has to do with their ability to find food without even leaving their dens in the wild, which is something I hadn't considered before.
Great video Tom, very informative. I think you don't have to be so apologetic (i mean it in a good way). These are your Ts and considering the situation, you did the right thing. Although Ts are masters in fasting, enough is enough. I think that if you are certain that they are after a molt and all hardened up, there is no reason NOT to do what you did. Especially when you saw the tiny abdomen. Consensus might say different, BUT the envelope needs to be pushed in keeping this and similar species. Im glad it all worked out and curious about what lies ahead. Definitely keep your subs posted about these two. ;-)
Thanks so much! I'm just very cautious as to what I do and post because I don't want folks getting the wrong idea. I definitely don't want people to think that I'm willy-nilly shoving prey into my Ts dens. Plus, there are topics in this hobby that are incredibly incendiary, and when I wade into these hot-button topics, I try to be very careful to present my take and not to specifically jump on one side or the other. For me, this was a situation in which I was reminded that even if someone does something different than I do, there is always something to learn if it's done successfully. I honestly think these Ts likely would have eventually died from starvation if I hadn't taken action...and that action was spurred by seeing and reading about alternative viewpoints. Very cool. Thanks so much for the support and the comment: I will definitely be doing updates.
Full disclosure, I have few tarantulas, and this species is not one of them. I just looked up where this species is from: Tanzania and Kenya. I looked up the rainfall per month and cross referenced it with the temperature per month in Nairobi (the capital city of Kenya). From what I found the temperature increases into an apex in march, followed by heavy rains in April (some of the heaviest of the year). This pattern is followed again in October being an apex in temperature, followed by another massive amount of rainfall in November. My question: Doesn't it make sense that perhaps the vertical differentiation in humidity between the levels of dirt may indicate to the spider that the rainy season (and thus food supply) has not come yet? In other words, might the spider be benefitted by soaking the enclosure after temperatures increase which signals an abundance of food again?
After doing some research, it sounds like the slings would encounter prey items (worms burrowing crickets, etc.) in their burrows and not even have to surface.
Imo every tarantula is different, burrowers sometimes don't burrow, I dont watch DTG but If people have experience 20+ with a species then I don't think someone with a couple of months can get on someone's case, her Ts are doing fine with shallow ssubstrate, my a.seemanni very rarely burrows and is doing fine, however if someone gets a borrower then they should put in deep substrate for half a year just to see if they're actually going to burrow or not.
Great points, Nazareth!
This is really good information Tom, I heard you talk about this on you podcast (which is amazing by the way) as well. And I am getting two P muticus so thank you so much for sharing this. Any other good advice to give about this species? I heard they can have quite a temper, whats you experience?
Thank you so much, Johan! Congrats on your P. muticus! I need to get more, as both of mine were males.
while I would never, EVER endorse anything that Deadly Tarantula Girl does as far as ethics are concerned, it is interesting to hear that this species buries itself and does not emerge even when hungry, resulting in starvation. I do wonder if it is due to the type of animals it predates on in the wild. I would not be surprised if it spends its entire life underground due to it finding most of its prey items in that kind of environment.
Again, deliberately keeping a burrowing species in a very shallow enclosure is something I would never endorse personally and in my opinion it is much more preferable to give the animal the space it needs and just open up the burrow entrance every once in a while, and feed larger prey items less frequently rather than small prey items more frequently, to reduce the possibility of stress.
For the record, I give all of my Ts plenty of substrate and enough depth to burrow if they feel so inclined. And this goes double for my fossorial. I just think that this maybe one of the first times that giving it the extra depth likely worked to my disadvantage. I have NEVER had a fossorial species seal off it's den and not come up to hunt when hungry...and I keep many burrowers. The more keepers I speak to who have observed the same thing, the more I think that in the wild, they have plenty to eat without ever having to leave their burrows. There must be plenty of worms, grubs, and other insects in those deep burrows to keep them satiated. I think this might be a crucial detail that is overlooked when we try to keep them in captivity.
Don't worry...I would never keep a fossorial species like a terrestrial. No way, not my thing. There is a reason my so-called "defensive" species never give me any issues, and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact I allow them to burrow. It was just seeing someone else do something that I felt was totally opposite of what I do opened my eyes to reexamine what I was doing and make a change that I likely wouldn't have attempted otherwise.
After speaking to a couple other keepers, I won't be rehousing or removing a bit of the substrate. Instead, I will continue to open up the entrance when needed and drop some food in.
I hope I didn't give the impression that I was endorsing keeping fossorials as terrestrials. No way. I was just trying to articulate how viewing a video with a perspective I didn't agree with led to an important husbandry realization.
Hey I was thinking maybe the slings need to start out on a few inches of substrate because if there is to much dirt maybe the slings can’t uncover there hole because the dirt is to top heavy? What do you guys think?
Hi, John! Since creating this video, we've had a lot of discussions about this species. The theory is that, in the wild, they will find prey items underground when they burrow. That's why they won't come up. They can definitley move the dirt, they just don't want to surface to find food; they are digging down expecting to find prey in the ground.
I keep my p_muticus in shallow sub and it dose just fine . over my 26 years of keeping t's and reptiles not all the books and care sheets are right. and a lot of the books for t's to day are way out of date and all most never cover just one specific trantula this leves openings for misinformation.cool video 👍!
Thanks so much! I think some of it come from trying to mimic what they have in the wild to the best of our abilities. Unfortunately, giving them some extra room to dig doesn't translate well to captivity.
Tom Moran yeah I can agree with you on that. we all still have a lot to learn can't wait to find out more about the t's as we put more understanding to the hobby. thanks Tom I like your videos ...
deadly tarantula girl helped me with this species also because it always kept it's burrow covered and I was concerned.
Although I will continue to keep this species with enough substrate to do some digging, I think that her video and one of the comments really opened my eyes to the fact that in this instance, this species might actually close its burrow and NEVER resurface to eat. That's something I hadn't realized. We're always taught in the hobby that when they close their burrows, there is no need for alarm...they know what they're doing. In this case, not so much. Thanks for chiming in!
Hmmm. I've always put roaches in closed up burrows with no trouble. Just gently reopened entrance a week after I saw a molt. Had no idea it was a no no. Go figure! ;-)
Well, the thought is that usually when they close them off, they're molting. Dropping a live critter in with them could prove a disaster if you catch them mid-molt or when they are freshly molted. If you're opening it up after you know that it molted, that shouldn't be an issue. Worst case scenario, it bats it away. For the P. muticus, these buggers will close it off and starve themselves to death. I'm assuming that in the wild, they find plenty to eat in their deep burrows and don't need to come up.
They're probably like moles, in that they probably depend on underground organisms like worms or grubs to dig into their chamber to sustain themselves. Awesome vid man, im getting a 2 inch but my 10yr niece will probably be going to college before i get a good size on it😂
That's exactly what many of us are starting to think. It would make total sense. Bahahaha! She probably will! :)
Maybe where they live, thete are predators that have forcef this speicies to evelotionary eat insects below ground when slings and juveniles? I dont know, just a homemade theory, but this can explain why they are not coming up to feed.
After doing some research and speaking to others, it seems that where they are from they would find plenty to eat under the ground. They likely don't even have to surface when younger to get food. This incident definitely made me rethink how deep I allow my fossorials to dig.
Hey Tom! Been using your videos and blog for tips and ideas since I got into keeping tarantulas last summer and they have helped me quite a lot as my collection has grown. My friend recently purchased a 3 inch muticus for me and I'm keeping it on about 4 inches of cocofiber and I've been worried that it might not be enough but this video now has me thinking that it could be enough so thanks for removing that "worry" from me!
I will say that this species seems to have a lot of conflicting ideas on the way to house it. Some people say bone dry and very deep, others say moist sub and very deep, or both ways with shallow substrate. I decided to go the route of medium depth with about an inch or damp sub on the bottom. Does this sound reasonable to you and what works best for you with this species? Would hate to possibly lose my hissing monster.
I too have had issues with slings never coming back up and nearly starving themselves. My Homoeomma Sp. Fire sling buried itself and never came back up for months so I undug it, found it alive and larger but with a nearly microscopic abdomen and I assume it wouldn't have lasted much longer. As soon as I put a cricket in with it it took it and proceeded to eat over the next couple of days. I guess some really just lack the instinct that they need to come back up to eat now and then.
Hello, there! I'm so glad these have been helpful; I really try to make them informative. :)
A few weeks ago, I rehoused both of my P. muticus into smaller containers with about 4" of substrate. I'm convinced that, in the wild, they have prey come to them when they are buried (which is why they seem willing to bury themselves until they starve). I know some folks have good luck keeping them in deep substrate, but since posting the update video, a LOT of folks have come forward to say that they have had theirs not surface and eventually die. Those keeping them on less sub report faster growth rates and healthy spiders. Truth is, we're trying to replicate their burrows, and it it might be working against us. I still thing they need room to dig a bit, but not so much that they never come up. Sounds like your's is set up well!
I also wet down a corner of mine and give them a choice of where to go. One of mine immediately dug out a burrow in the moist corner, seemingly indicating that she wanted some moisture. :)
That is VERY interesting about the species fire. I just had a similar situation with a Brachypelma klaasi sling. It seems that some just don't adjust well to the artificial burrows...
Thanks for the great reply, Tom! Your blog and videos are extremely helpful but if it wasn't for them, I'd have less species and thicker wallet... They give me the confidence to try new species so my wallet feels a hit now and then! Love all the monsters I've picked up.
What you said about the prey probably coming to them in the wild makes sense to me. I've had mine now for a few days (not nearly enough time to really make a good assessment on my specimens behavior) and I've noticed that it will not actively hunt or chase after crickets that wander right to the lip leading in the burrow. The only time it eats is when I drop the crickets down into the burrow with it. I will definitely continue to keep mine with this shallower setup and will keep tracking the growth and feeding. I do wonder about the moisture requirements as Kenya, if my memory serves me correctly, isn't all that dry of a country.
Well as my monster likes to come out at night and wander around, I'll wet down a corner today just to see if mine has any real preference between dry and wet.
That stinks that your klaasi was doing the same thing. Makes me hope that they will grow out of this with another molt or two. I almost wonder if I should just give mine fire some shallow sub, a little hide, and a small water dish.
I've got one more question to run by you, sorry! I was wondering if you knew around what size the thick legs on the females would start showing? The dealer that my friend bought mine from said she believes mine is a girl from a ventral viewing (not exactly the most accurate form of sexing hah!) but the legs are still thinnish. Looking at mine right now, it really is not showing any sign of the large triangle of darker hair that males in this species apparently have (I've read that it is about as obvious as the mark on a male T. Stirmi). Anyways, I'm not really finding much info around on this species, both ventral sexing and the development of the legs. Really interested in what your experience with sexing this species is!
Once, again thank you for the great reply! Looking forward to your next videos and posts!
Hello! No problem on the questions! I've heard that the thicker legs start becoming apparent around the 3-4" mark. The next molt should bring you some indication. The mature males are also MUCH smaller than the females, with many reaching maturity at the 3.5-4" mark. If yours is a male, you probably wouldn't have too long to wait before you know!
Tom Moran thanks again, Tom! I was able to get a good measurement 2 days ago and mine is right at 3.5 inches. I'm not seeing any signs of boxing glove pedipalps yet. I haven't seen enough of this species to tell on the rear legs as from different angles they look thicker or thinner. I will say the males seem to look incredibly leggy at the same size mine is. Well hopefully it'll still be visible by the time it molts again and I'll probably be able to tell then!
I had a very similar experience with my Cobalt Blue sling. I had him/her (idk which) on 4inches of wet substrate and spring tails in the enclosure. The enclosure was very narrow and when I accidentally knocked it over I thought I killed the sling. Turns out I didn’t and he just buried half way down and refused food. I rehoused and instead of offering pre killed adult crickets I offered live small crickets and the sling ate them. I’m thinking fossorial species are prone to ...shyness/anxiety so much that some specimens will neglect food.
It's funny, as since posting this, I've noticed this happening to a couple of my other burrowers. Although it seems to happen quite a bit with smaller P. muticus, it can also happen with other species. I'm convinced that many of them will find food while digging in their own burrows, therefore they don't have to venture out in the wild. Thanks so much for chiming in, Mike!
Hey I’m having the same problem with my king baboon, he just ate 2 days ago now he has sealed off burrow, I’m not sure if I should un dig or just leave it be and see if he molts
If he just ate 2 days ago and was eating all along, it may be premolt. Try to keep an eye on it to see when it molts. I've had a problem with them not surfacing again to eat after a molt.
Tom Moran Ou ok sounds good really appreciate the reply
I had to do the same for my adult female a few years ago. Used adult dubia roach. She'd always eat them.
Yeah, this species has proven to be quite tricky for me. I've definitely had issues with some of them not eating and staying in their burrows. We're always taught to never dig them up, but this is one that I've had to do it with. Thanks, bud!
Tom Moran I've just got myself another. A juvenile female. She's doing exactly the same. She's dug down to the bottom of her enclosure and won't come out. Dropped a cricket down and bam.
I've also just had this with my Opistophthalmus glabrifrons scorpion. Blocked herself in. Wouldn't come out. I made a hole and popped the cricket in. From the back I can see her. She instantly grabbed, stung and began eating the cricket. Bloody odd.
Tom ome question.. It was my 1st.time owning this sp... I wanna ask if they web alot? Or not? Or is it destined to be a fossorial sp..
Hello! If given the room to dig, they are definitely fossorial. If kept on shallow substrate, you'll get a bit more webbing and a nastier attitude.
Ok tom.. For your own experience.. Where do they exceed alot? Into a deep substrate or shallow substrate?
Hey Tom, I just received a 1.25 inch P. Muticus sling last week, and they have already closed themselves off in their burrow. How long should I allow them to go without eating before I open up the burrow? I haven't tried feeding them yet, but just asking in advance so I know when to take action if needed.
So sorry for the delay in replying! How plump were they when you got them? How much soil do they have to dig in? Can you see them? I would give it several weeks before I started panicking. If they close up their dens and you don't see them for a while, then it might be time to opening it up.
Hey Tom, I almost forgot to mention that i did an experiment with one of my 6 juvenile King Baboons with just a Terracotta clay pot hide cut in half and two inch peat substrate. Note that rest of my 5 juveniles still gets to keep their deep substrate enclosures except for this one experimental subject that i am documenting myself. Two weeks has passed and she keeps moving dirt around like a bulldozer and keeps dumping more dirt on her water bowl. She then stopped doing her shallow excavation thing and also stopped dumping more dirt on her water bawl. It looks to me like she's settled in her Terracotta clay pot hide for now because I've already witnessed her kill and eat one fat pregnant dubia roach inside her hide. She does stay inside her hide for a very long time without even emerging though. She did webbed up her entrance without dirt but i can still see her from the entrance. I will give you more update on this experimental subject regarding her progress inside her clay pot hide.. Also, almost forgot to mention as well that one of my females did in fact ate an earthworm underground :) Hey Thank you Tom :)
Please, definitely keep me updated on how this goes! I'll be very curious to hear if she ever completely settles in and how she does eating.
Yeah, I'm thinking of dropping a couple earthworms in to see how it goes! Thanks again!
I only had two of my specimens eat earthworms or nightcrawlers. The other tree of my juvies didn't eat them. So am guessing finicky eaters when it comes to nightcrawlers. But then i could be wrong, because the other three are probably not in the mood of eating that day because i think they're more concentrated in digging more tunnel systems lol
And Yes, this experimental subject is definitely settled in and just killed another dubia male last night, and my two inch substrate of choice is a mix of ecoearth, Zilla jungle mix, and Zoo med forest floor cypress mulch with a little sprinkle of dwarf white isopods and springtails for my cleanup crew in case she takes a big dump again inside her burrow lol My cleanup crew also helps eating her leftover food balls that she also dumps inside her burrow or making it a part of her burrow entrance lol. I would highly recommend dwarf white isopods and springtails to avoid fungus, molds, and mite outbreaks inside a Ts tank especially inside a Ts burrow where its much moist and humid than externally :)
I'll be very curious to see if mine take them (and what other species might eat them). I've heard of some folks feeding their Ts earthworms for years, but I hadn't had a reason to try it. Sounds like now I do!
Yes, i would highly recommend it :) You just gotta make sure your KB is settled in first and not digging any new tunnel systems and you can just throw the earthworms from their burrow entrance.
Hey Tom, did you rehouse these guys on 3-4 inches of substrate?
Hi, Marlo! It was around 4" or so. It still allowed them to burrow, but they were not as deep down as before.
@@TomsBigSpiders Thank you Sir.
It's freakin' cool when they dig at the corner of the tank and we can actually see the hole from the side, but I'm afraid i will accidentally make a tiny landslide and cover up the hole with my T in it when i move the tank. If it happen, will my T survive? And is there maybe, any tips to make the soil stronger? Or is it just simply impossible for the soil to collapse? One last question, how to take the molts when they do it deep inside its hole?
Usually they reinforce the inside of the burrows with webbing so that they can't collapse. I don't think that I've ever had that happen. You should be fine.
You leave them in there. Some species will work them into the sides of the burrows. They don't pose any harm. :)
Awesome then... Thanks a lot, Tom!
Hi Tom, I just wonder if in the wild they eat creatures that live in the soil or that burrow . Perhaps it's safer for them that way .
That's what the general consensus was after I posted this video. Their burrows are so deep in the wild that they likely find plenty to eat in the ground.
Posted a reply on FB. (no pics can be inserted here in comments.) ;-)
Been 5 years did he do husbandry update?
Hello, Justin! You know, I don't know if I ever did do an update. I moved them both into more shallow enclosures, and I ended up with two mature males. After moving them, they ate better and molted more often. I definitely need to pick up some slings!
hi tom can ypu give us an update of this spide
Hi, Jeff! I rehoused it into something a little more shallow, and it matured out male a year or so later.
very cool, might do the same with my queen.. hasent come up in 6 months.
When I posted this video, I was really curious to hear if anyone else had the same experience. Several folks had come forward and said they had the same thing happen. Since I posted this, both of mine have eaten four times each. That's more than either had eaten in the past four months.
I did end up doing that. She ate and didn't replug the hole. Ate a couple more times then molted. She's in premolt again now and hasn't plugged the burrow.
is it in nature that they eat animals that are moving around in the soil?
Hey, Robert! That is is exactly. After doing some research and speaking with folks who work in the field, that has been confirmed. They don't have to surface because they will find things to eat in their burrows.
is there any way to mimic this?@@TomsBigSpiders
what is this substrate your using.?
Hi, Roy. I believe that this is peat.
Maybe I'm just lucky, but I just drop superworms with crushed heads down my 5" female's hole and she will eventually come get it without fail. I keep my male on much shallower substrate, but seem to have a harder time making sure he's eaten with how he's constructed his burrow.
Some folks don't seem to have the issue, and those that experience it seem to be dealing with smaller specimens. Glad to hear that yours is behaving! :)
One of the things that has me worried about getting a species that loves to burrow is that I'm worried that the burrow will collapse and they'll get trapped. Is that something I should be worried about?
Great question! Not at all, honestly. It's very rare that it happens, as they reinforce the walls with webbing. The one case I heard of where a spider DID get buried, it was because it dug under a large rock that collapsed on it, killing it. I've had some minor cave ins before, and they quickly dig right back out.
Oh, okay. I didn't know about that. So it's good to know for the future.
No problem! I keep dozens of species that burrow, and I've never had any issues. :)
I tend to feed mine by pushing wax worms into its burrow. it's the only way I can get it to eat
Thanks so much for chiming in. This is something that I would never have thought to do before as it's usually a big No-no with other species. It is great to hear that others do the same thing. Thanks!
she basically just stays in her hide and closes the entrance at times. she remodeled a little though.
That's awesome...thank you!
It just baffles me that this species doesn't have an instinct or a need to go searching for food on their own. I wonder what causes them to act in this way.
It makes me think that we're missing something in how they live in the wild. They are known to construct very deep burrows. I'm thinking (and this is purely speculation, mind you) that in their natural habitat they find plenty of things to eat underground. I'm sure there are plenty of worms, grubs, and such to fill them up when they are smaller. This would mean they could stay safely underground while they grow and avoid putting themselves in situations on the surface where THEY can become the prey. If that's the case, then what other keepers and I have been experiencing would make total sense. After all, they're not going to find bugs, worms, and grubs in the substrate of their artificial enclosures.
Gosh! I really do wish mole crickets are available for sale as feeders in the hobby lol That's the only natural prey that i can think of that's pretty capable of digging straight down to a King Baboon's layer lol Unfortunately, they are considered pests here in the US and I've red that they can turn cannibals if you attempt keeping more than one into a substrate filled enclosure for breeding purposes :/ Best bet is in the south where there's plentiful.
I agreee...it sounds like they would be a fantastic feeder for this species especially.
I agree with you completely Tom, they must have been gaining most of their food from underground otherwise they probably would know to climb to the surface and hunt for food.
It's the only logical explanation. :)