Intel Talks Lunar Lake Expectations
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2024
- At Computex 2024 Intel revealed more information around the companies next generation mobile architecture code named Lunar Lake. In this video Mark sits down with Dan Rogers and Robert Hallock from Intel to ask questions ranging from performance expectations to AI.
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Timecodes:
00:00 - Intro
01:30 - Milestones
02:48 - Memory Configurations
09:04 - Architecture Deep-Dive
10:56 - Intel or TSMC?
13:40 - CPU Cores
18:14 - No Hyper-Threading
22:37 - Frequency
23:43 - Thread Director
26:34 - Copilot+
30:46 - Battlemage GPU
37:53 - Security
39:31 - Ports
42:33 - WiFi Sensing
44:53 - Final Thoughts
#intel #computex2024 #interview - Наука та технологія
Hallock said the Lunar Lake dev kit is going to be upgradeable to the Panther Lake dev kit, cool
Good luck ordering one, though. It is clearly reactionary and will there just be one? They sold off their NUC business to ASUS, so they aren't exactly focused on producing mini PCs anymore.
The Lunar Lake CPUs seem awesome. I just bought a Meteor Lake based ASUS Zenbook. Kind of wish I had waited a little bit longer. Except I HAD to get a laptop now.
I can actually perfectly understand your situation. I have a laptop with 7th gen Intel processor, and i spent a bit of money recently to clean it, put new thermal paste on the processor, upgrade the ram and install a new SSD with a fresh OS, so it can go as far as possibile, hoping it will keep going until new gen laptops will be out. If i can give you an advice, IF Lunar Lake, Strix, or even X Elite laptops will be as good as they sound, you might consider the idea of selling your Meteor Lake laptop at a decent price to privates, or to companies in the refurbished market. You will loose some money but you might buy a much better laptop adding a bit more money on top of what you get from the sale (if you can obviously). Considering the average life cycle of a laptop, it might be a good investment.
@@matthewsykes2646 you have plenty of options in the second hand market, for very little money
a ryzen 4800H laptop will absolutely smoke your 7th gen intel laptop (i upgraded from 6700hq) and it costs peanuts.
i would definitely also buy into new products if they are game changing, like for example, ryzen strix will be, but other than that, you have better choices, instead of using antiquated hardware, which 7th gen intel (skylake), kinda is.
heck, my 4800H laptop sometimes feels a bit slow (probably got used to the performance) so i can't imagine how the 7th gen intel would run decently, it's gonna be barely usable if you actually do stuff on it (i use vmware horizon, about 50-100 chrome tabs and a few more programs here and there and the cpu even with it's 16 threads has to work a bit)
Same here... just bought a Lenovo IdeaPad Slim Core Ultra 7... I wonder if the single core performance of the Core Ultra 7 matches the Lunar Lake...
I totally get your feelings. Needed to upgrade from my aging 6900K and went for a 14700K. Ultra 200 is around the corner but the old champ couldn't hold out any longer. Not like it makes the old stuff any slower, and we not get to wait out for a few generations for the even better stuff in the next few generations.
Some impressive staff here.
you guys asked the questions that we were all thinking about!
Thank you! That means a lot.
I wanted him to say at the end: "I'm ready to snap that dragon". :p
Great info and amazing stuff mentioned. I'm excited for Lunar.
Robert Hallock and Dan Rogers are the dynamic duo.
Great coverage, really enjoy the questions! If you have an opportunity interviewing intel again, while there. Can you ask them about driver updates for VR support with the a750 and a770and is there an expected timeline?
I guess I'm the one or two on Reddit. I hope Arrow Lake is still at least a bit more power efficient, but with upgradable RAM. That being said, it would be nice to at least have a 64 GB option on Lunar Lake.
For a laptop targeting the thin and light segment with only 4p cores and 4 ecores, 64gb seems overkill. Arrow lake being built on 20A will be efficient, just wait for that if you want high performance and efficiency to boot. Lunar lake will be ultra efficient and be more than enough performance for the majority of people. that who it is targeting, the majority of users, not power users or enthusiasts
Arrow lake is mostly the same as lunar lake, that is using the new architecture and process nodes both from tsmc and their own foundry. So power efficiency is a given. It is actually annoying to hear amd fanboys still parotting that point. Now platform longevity and performance increase should be the criticism. Their media and customer relations needs a lot of work too. 13th gen problem still hasn't been addressed in a satisfactory manner.
@@yuvanraj2271 I don’t see any fan boying here, though I do see every other channel fawning over every product amd releases that the general consumers have no interest in
@@BIG_HAMZ I somewhat agree. However, this is made to compete with the up and coming mobile market. This is the one way that Snapdragon X Elite has a leg up on Intel if reported claims by Intel are true.
@@yuvanraj2271 This makes sense. If it's more powerful than Lunar Lake, just as efficient, allows upgradable RAM and is just a bit bigger, I think this is what would top the market.
Great chat and good questions. Love hearing from the actual employees and having them give direct feedback on what are the typical cynical talking points in the community. Thanks, PCW.
I just got a notification from a channel i had no idea about
Welcome to PCWorld. It's a great channel!
Sounds interesting! I like the sound of On Die Ram however, not being able to install additional ram is a problem.
This is only in mobile laptops built for low power consumption, not gaming, so most people won't want to upgrade their ram before upgrading the laptop itself.
So i suppose we can now get a macbook look alike with great battery and not incompatibilities. Hopefully a laptop vendor will match the quality of the laptop as well
Great interview, Mark !
Thanks very much!
Like especially Robert Hallock's reactions and insights, great interview!
I'm experimenting with disabling Hyperthreading on my 13th gen Intel CPU with 14 cores. While I understand this isn't typical, I've seen some benefit in specific games and noticed a reduction in coil whine from my Intel Arc GPU. It's interesting to know that APO dynamically disable Hyperthreading for performance gains.
It is not a performance thing as much as it is a security thing. Well directly anyway.
A lot of the cpu leaks and issues come from SMT, and negating costs performance, for each and every one of them, making it less worth it plus you have god only knows how many 0 days left. Some os have it disabled directly in the kernel for this exact reason.
Better to leave it out completely then.
it's better for performance in gaming and overall latency and system responsiveness, I do it too
Intel should be smart to include many and very smart video encoders and decoders. So many testers and youtubers will do free marketing for the products and this will turn the table.
Does anyone know that lunar lake will come with 8w fanless laptop?
Wow! Hallock jumped ship??
Yep, last year.
-Adam
He's really good at answering questions, glad he is doing well with Intel
@@deansmits006 He's really good at skirting around the answers and saying a lot of nothing.
@@sonichedgehog36 I agree.
Great team from Intel tech & PCWorld.
I'm one of the people who is utterly disgusted that Thunderbolt 5 was not integrated on Meteor Lake.
Thunderbolt 5 was announced a month before Meteor Lake (October 2023). I accepted the lame excuse that there wasn't time to integrate Thunderbolt 5 and I made peace with the compromise that at least we would have discrete options. It is mid 2024 and the only device with Thunderbolt 5 is Razer Blade 18.
It is annoying that Lunar Lake will also not have Thunderbolt 5 integrated. Thunderbolt 5 is badly needed for eGPUs. Having devices with dGPUs include discrete Thunderbolt 5 support is wasteful.
Just imagine if the MSI Claw 8 had Thunderbolt 5, you could dock it to an eGPU for console mode.
Kinda in the same boat :)
What about Occulink ? Shouldn't that be better than TB5 ?
@@harshivpatel6238 Oculink is a good compromise however it is not widely adopted. The downside of Oculink over Thunderbolt 5 is it doesn't support power delivery. The upside is it is not expensive to implement. Which is why I'm not happy with the fact that Thunderbolt 5 is not integrated on Lunar Lake, because doing so reduces cost and increases adoption.
49:04 So that’s not gonna fit in carry-on
good staff makes good work environment, i would like to work there
What about "power via". Is this present on this node or not?
No, TSMC doesnt have backside power yet. Intel is introducing it with 20a, TSMC will be sometime after intel
what about a chromebook? what's next one after a twin lake?
CPU package power includes the on package RAM on Lunar Lake? Ok they answered it, it's included!
It's amusing how the pc enthusiast media has been justifiably giving intel so much flak on power consumption/heat/etc, and now intel adds on die memory to increase efficiency and now the media will complain about the lack of upgradeability. We can't have it both ways. Intel has competition now, they had to go this route.
Adding on die memory was always going to happen, it is inevitable.
Removing any and all sockets to add more memory for specific workloads without buying the absolute top highest end you can get or go Xeon, that is a sore spot.
On the other end if you need not a lot of memory because it is written to disk fast but need cpu horsepower, you must pay up for a load of ram you do not use.
Yeah and minimum 16 gb helps
its mobile chip, problem is they run desktop chips at double power for few % performance gains at full load, at light loads intel is ok compared to amd.
Did you say mobile CPUs only... checking out... cheers.
Lunar Lake is heavily designed for mobile (4P + 4E cores only, no other configuration, RAM on chip, always includes iGPU and NPU). For high performance laptops, with upgradeable RAM and for desktops, we'll have Arrow Lake, but that launches later (I think they'll do a paper launch at the end of the year)
active subtitules for please
Intel are executing!
This is proof. But, the competition is heating up too. ARM (Qualcomm and the likes) are going to bring heat. Therefore, looking back, Intel's IFS strategy - capital expenditure and slow path to profitability aside - makes complete sense!
I hope there are thin and light lunar lake with a 4060 at 16 inch oled
Eh, the appeal of Lunar Lake is it's much improved Xe2 graphics with it's very efficient SOC. Dedicated GPU's will probably be paired with Arrow Lake as they're higher performance at the cost of efficiency.
No l3 cache on Ecores. And no memory shared between E and P cores. Does the memory sync happen in side cache if an app is working on 2 threads one on p core and one on ecore? or does it need to go all the way back to RAM?. is this the penalty for optimizing for video play back or light work loads or games that use fewer threads.
Highly multithreaded application will take a hit on this isn't it? If this was the case should not the PCore had an option for 6-8 cores?
Simply put what is the cinebench score for lunarlake for multi thread.
There is 8 MB of memory-side cache (I forgot how it is named) that both the P and E cores can use, and I think also the NPU can use. Watch the video from "High Yield" channel, he goes into a deep dive of how the chip is segmented.
@@Winnetou17 That's side cache cannot be considered as in the same hierarchy right? More like extended L2 for Ecore and extended L3 for Pcore. Its not the same as having a common shared L3.
@@curio78 I'm not fully sure, but it is separate and should be able to be used by both P cores and E cores and, like, have a single cache copy if both need the same data. That makes it L3 or L4 to me.
And the latency, I really doubt it that it's comparable to L2.
Give me the battery life estimates.
What about fanless laptops like the MacBook Air? Why is that not a priority? It's so great not to hear any fans. Also on MacBook Pro, which has been inaudible to me for 14 months now...
I would imagine (and hope) that there will be fanless laptops with Lunar Lake. The low power budget certainly allows for that.
Mark only got flipped the bird once? mb
can we get intel to realize that these mobile chips need to be made into embedded itx for NAS and home servers. huge segment miss by so many that intel could dominate with their e-cores and quicksync.
I'm sure that they will release a successor to the N100, using probably the Skymont aka Lunar Lake E-cores. But for them its low volume low margin, so I wouldn't be surprised if it launches in 2 years.
Robert Hallock ,just recently of AMD.....
Technical Marketer. I could do his job today. Just slap "AI" on every thing.
@@georgejones5019I'm just waiting until he says something negative now about AMD,😑 It's bound to happen sometime.
You active subtitule
34:00
At least for me seeing Robert at Intel now seems odd and yes I know he left AMD over a year ago. I wonder if he threw out his AMD PC for an Intel one and say AMD is no good now lol.
4:46 Unlikely? I have 4 laptops here, upgraded them all.
Even worse: for 1 I needed a lot of ram for specific workload, over 32GB. So what do I do then?
I think the idea is that Lunar Lake is for Ultrabooks. Arrow Lake-HX would be for more gaming/workstation laptops and can support upgradeability.
Most people don't need to upgrade. My gaming laptop from 2018 still works fine on Windows 11 with just 8GB. Sure it can't play the latest games well, but adding 8GB more wouldn't help here.
So the actually use case for RAM upgrades is for business grade/high performance laptops and he said that high performance laptops will likely come with LPCAMM2 instead. Lunar lake here seems to be an ultrabook/slim SoC and other CPUs without on-die memory will fill the upper end.
You pay them the extra $400 for the 64GB model.🙄
You're still the "unlikely "person. 95% of users just don't. I would maybe on an 8gb machine at this performance level, but not on a 16gb machine. Not on this kind of CPU.
Get a different platform. The world doesn't revolve around you. Intel are targeting a specific share of the market that doesn't include you.
Had a laugh when he said only two people on Reddit care about upgrading the RAM in their laptop. He nailed it. 😂😂😂
You obviously weren’t paying attention, because that is not what he said. He was talking about the 2 people on Reddit who upgrade the *soldered* RAM in their thin and light laptops. That process involves using specialized machinery like hot air rework stations, reflow ovens, specialized stencils, etc. Almost nobody would ever try and do that. He was not talking about people upgrading their SODIMM modules-that is a different class of product altogether, and Arrow Lake is the product that will use that kind of memory and allow that kind of upgradability.
@@nonchalanto mucho texto
@@kelownatechkid bro, if you can’t read a single paragraph, I don’t know what to tell you.
F the AI.
Can we get beast cores for gaming, or are we going to stay on E-Cores forever now?
I am not buying Arrow Lake, I am not buying 9000 AMD series
Arrow Lake is rumored to only have 10 TOPS, which is kinda weird if you ask me, but I don't really care about AI either.
Still, I wouldn't discount neither Arrow Lake neither Strix nor Strix Halo AMD chips. Or you meant to say you're not going to buy "9000 AMD series" because you'll buy Ryzen AI 9 HX 370 or whatever that chip was called ?
On an architecture standpoint, ask them why they didn't use HBM3 instead of the LPDDR5X modules. Technically, the HBM3 memory solution would be around the same power but guve drastically more bandwidth which would theoretically increase iGPU performance drastically. Having the HBM3 in the current location of the soldered LPDDR5X would've possibly been an even more revolutionary performance leap.
cost
Also I'm pretty sure HBM requires an even bigger bus width, so they'd have to redesign lunar lake with a 512-bit bus for memory and that's a huge amount of silicon
@@wryd4sound You stack it on directly hence the huge bus. That is not a lot of silicon. It does require a different design.
What it would do ise massively increase the gpu performance.
HBM is 10x the cost. Keep dreaming. Silicon interposer cost needs to go way down. Don’t believe me? What I said above is a direct quote from Jim Keller.
Holy crap intel!! lunar lake is not competing with strixs,snapdragon and m3/m4 meter lake is…
I prefer Intel or AMD over Qualcomm. At least they will give a better graphics experience. I don't want an AI PC and if forced to have an AI PC, I don't want a weak one.
For now it is, but what about October when Lunar Lake is released? It's not like all manufacturers have to release their processors at the same time to compete.
@@jake1110 I’m worried intel will be later than that. Meteor lake was released in December but just now came to laptop last month. Amd apple and Qualcomm have sent out units for reviews.
Strix isn't a massive upgrade. Only the rt performance will be increaed
@@jelipebands1700 Meteor Lake didn't came to laptop last month WTF. It just got on the Framework 13 one, but for most others it's been available for several months. The problem was that it was clearly not ready, especially in December. I hope Arrow Lake won't be as late. Which is probably why it's launching after Lunar Lake.
A company of engineers is forgotten how to make efficient designs without making everything boxed in. Funny. Oh remember that the next time pat gelsinger starts yapping on stage about how many engineers he has.
You want Apple-like performance but without sacrificing the x86 architecture or the legacy layout. You do understand engineers are not magicians, right? When did you last upgrade the RAM on a M-series MacBook? The world is full of armchair critics.
@@isuzu343 "Legacy layout" "sacrificing x86 arch" as if it's the isa that gives the m series it's efficiency. It's an efficient design that HAPPENS to be Arm based, unless you know more than Jim Keller. I'd rather take the half watt per hour hit than be locked down to a system with the ram it shipped with. Camm2 has shown speed improvements as well so the bandwidth argument is in the gutter. Intel's incompetence is theirs to deal with, I'll just stick to AMD's next gen platforms
@@divyjotsingh3879 It is the ARM ISA and the System on Chip layout that have largely contributed to Apple's dominance when it comes to power efficiency. Also why Qualcomm has been able to put up a decent show with their first generation in this space even without total control over the OS and manufacturing partners.
Why should Intel not exercise its right to adopt the SoC approach to its designs while still retaining the x86 architecture if they can manage to make x86 platforms competitive this way? It's still better than the BS marketing crap that AMD put out by adding AI to the sticker and calling it a revolution! Goodluck with the "next gen" AI intergalactic timewarp Strix Point Ryzen processors that'll last about an hour on battery.
@@isuzu343 sounds like someone who hasn't used an AMD laptop in the last 4 years and is stuck with a 10-year-old pile driver.
@@divyjotsingh3879 I haven't used an AMD laptop, true. That's because I prefer to use the much superior MacBooks even if I have to put up with MacOS. I do have a 7950x desktop at home that I remote into and a couple of Threadrippers 3970Xs in my lab for research. My experience with the X670e and the 7950x has been miserable when it comes to my RAM EXPO configurations. What now then?
I love how they just retconned that Lunar Lake was always meant to be done on TSMC. Not true, they originally planned to do it on 18A but they couldn’t get it ready in time. They said Panther lake was “the plan the whole time” which is… just a lie.
That's Hallock for ya. Him and Raja Koduri are two birds of a feather in that regard.
I wouldn't reak leaks as gospel though. That is, it's hard to tell if it's a lie or not.
@@Winnetou17 it was on their roadmaps
The Hallock lose brain cells when he jumped ship?
45:30 it already exists, its called zen
Exactly!
Zen is very powerful 💪💪
Before lunar lake that's definitely true
AI😟
God be with you all
Wish everything wasn’t called lake. Coffee lake. Kaby lake. Arrow lake. Suck it from the back lake
LAKES!!!!!!!!!!!!
Raptor Lake
Alder Lake
Rocket Lake
Jasper Lake
Elkhart Lake
Tiger Lake
Ice Lake
Comet Lake
Cannon Lake
Gemini Lake
Coffee Lake
Apollo Lake
Kaby Lake
Whiskey Lake
Sky Lake
They should really stop with this lake nonsense. Sky lake was the start of the dreaded 14nm++++++ era... why keep this lake branding if its often associated with Intel losing its leader status.
Intel still trying to convince everyone that their 10nm chips are still relevant 😂
One tip for Intel: you present a laptop and you keep it plugged to power outlet? Come on ... If you advertise mobile system, show you're not afraid of running it on battery.
You make a good point. If I'd thought of it, I would have asked them to run it on battery.
Most of the laptops are sealed anyway and can't survive being taken apart so just stop with 'upgrade' nonsense. Apple has slayed that dragon. Besides, on die mmeory can dramatically improve perofrmance, especially graphcis.
A sealed mind sees sealed laptops
nah forget that, have some respect for yourself and stop buying disposable trash, which is what all soldered devices are.
@@dirg3musicnope.
Use me as a dislike button for this guys comment.
Yeah "upgrade nonsense", that's why Apple can charge those absurd amount for RAM and SSD upgrade
the concept of upgrading memory later in a laptop is pretty non user friendly if you look at why people buy alptops at the first place , its so once they buy that product they dont want to go to any sort of device opening tasks to service centre or themselves and neither can they can do it , thats why they bought a user friendly device like a laptop , laptop manufacturers should just provide them with pre defined specs to choose from options and after that its unupgradeable which should be clearly mentioned so user knows what they are buying , its what apple does and makes them so handy and user friendly , similar with the storage options , no body wants to open up a laptop again to upgrade after they bought it , manufacturers should start thinking from the point of view of the customer rather that a point of view of " IFs" , and should limit their options to what they customer might actually need , budget vs premium vs mid ranger is what the customer base is and they should think from their perspective , only then can consumer electronics products will be super efficient
The concept of a laptop is to be portable. It has nothing to do with how upgradeable it is.
And to call the ability to change / replace or upgrade stuff inside "non-user friendly" is 100% idiotic. Sorry if I seem harsh, but that's the truth. Nobody forces you to replace stuff inside, but if you do happen to need a replace or upgrade later, it's OBJECTIVELY more user friendly than one where you cannot. And going to a service to do it for you totally invalidates that too.
“The 2 people on Reddit” foh, this is trash
Intel gonna destroy Amd Zen 5 easily this time. Amd don't have power efficient CPU to competes with Lunar Lake and ARM. Also we have seen how insane Intel new P and E core IPC. Lunar Lake already insane but imagine Arrow Lake with 8P+16E, not to mention zen 5 was supposed to launch in december but Amd know they are going to get destroyed if Intel launched their CPU first.
Another point is that Amd very carefully to show their heavily cherry picked benchmark, they didn't show Zen 5 ST performance compared to i9-14900K because they know their CPU is still slower in ST, even their slides has AVX512 involved so the IPC different to Zen 4 actually less than 16%.
Things not gonna be well for Amd, they have very tough competition from Intel, apple and qualcomm. Amd will be last in next gen CPU battle.
Thus far AMD's design is good with their 4c cores however the frequency doesn't scale like intel's does. That's the big intel's big differentiator as far as I can tell. I initially thought ryzen 4c did/would do the same thing but the clock frequency is pinned.
so many ex amd hiried by intel , its amazing , jim keller , raja kaduri , hallock and many more ...
its seems like intel wants to learn amd secrets or thinks amd has superior engineers to worth hiring, lol
Jim Keller hasn’t worked at Intel for years.
Nah this is just fanfiction, the silicon industry is heavily incestuous and the big names often hop around different companies as and when they are needed/can be afforded
Jim Keller worked in all big companies, you can't call him an AMD engineer (as if he'd been the majority of time there).
I'm not sure Hallock can be calld an engineer, if we have Jim Keller and Raja Kaduri in the same sentence.
So I'd say it's a stretch.
Intel has been promising to become efficient for 5 years, but a significant shift has not happened. At the same time, Apple and Qualcomm just took it and did it right away on ARM. I don't want to hear Intel's promises anymore, I don't need it anymore.
Meteor Lake is significantly better. A bit worse top performance, but visibly better at mid to low power usage.
Amazing how much they can talk about AI without talking about Lunar Lake TOPS.
Intel keeps tripping in the AI race.
All of this PR nonsense when INDEPENDENT benchmarks will speak LOUDER than the PR team EVER WILL.
Stop typing like a karen
Wow! Intel really behind on all markets.
Ryzen 300 already on pre order… lunar not even a product yet.
Ryzen 9000 pre order… faster than zen4 and Intel 14th gen… very power efficient…. Arrow lake not even being in COMPUTEX 2024.
Epic and thread ripper are eating Xeon and the non existent HEDT last was x299 from Intel.
Saphire rapids never made in time.
I am going back to AMD. Alder lake was the last breath of life from Intel… not great…. To hot to slow for the power that pulls… just like everything that came after that.
Ryzen 9000 is still slower than my 14900k on DDR5 8400 which scores 46xxx in Cinebench R23.
@@freak777power How would you know that if you don't have a Ryzen 9000 yet?
Hopefully Intel will have something enticing by CES. They have some promising tech but we have to see these new chips actually head to head. Also their GPUs are impressive in some aspects and hopefully their new ones will be substantially better.
@@freak777powerusing an apex board, a binned cpu and drawing 350watts or more in a state that will degrade the chip if you use it for extended multicore workloads. I have the same setup z790 is a dogshit platform if we are to be honest.
@@Jolinator it is not going to degrade a shit at 75C, and gaming doesn’t even go over 100w. You people are clueless.
too much time at the gym?
Healthy body, healthy mind
No. If you think that, you need to start exercising.
Intel company die 25 years ago. There stock didn't hit all time high since 1998.
it's tsmc.
intel should be good now.