Stereo Amp Or Monos? How should You Choose Between The Two?
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- Опубліковано 9 гру 2022
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Are You preparing to do The Live UA-cam Comparative Testing of Power Products and Outlets including, of course if you prefer, any Brands You represent or do not and also allowing me the opportunity to prove my assertions of what's possible with what I assert as superior performance with my Proprietary Power Circuit Technologies and Power Cords AND my DRIVEN OUTLETS? Are you willing to fairly test against ANY other comparative power products? If you don't have the metrics measurement equipment to conduct the testing, I Do. Please Advise. Thank You.
Here's an engineer's point of view. In theory two mono amplifiers potentially have two advantages over one stereo amplifier assuming that the signal circuit topology are the same.
One is channels separations, that is crosstalk isolation being in two physically separated enclosures. To test a stereo amplifier for this aspect just connect the input to one channel, turn up the gain and see if you can hear anything coming out of the speaker connected to the channel whose input was disconnected. Chances are you will hear nothing or almost nothing. By comparison channels separation of the best stereo phonograph cartridges is at least four orders of magnitude worse even at mid frequencies where channel separation should be best. Digital sources should have separation comparable to stereo amplifiers, at least 80 db.
The other relates to the power supply. Generally two power supplies in a pair of mono amplifiers will outperform a single power supply in a stereo amplifier. The power supply is the single most important feature of any electronic device. No device can be better than the limitations imposed by the power supply. How much better are two than one larger one? Depends on what the manufacturer put into them. Often dual mono will have two power supplies in one enclosure. For those who believe the power cord matters (I'm not getting into that one) then two power cords are better than one. For those who don't believe it, one is sufficient. You could consider the power cord part of the power supply if that makes you happy.
What about having more power. When I was an audiophile many many years ago I thought you couldn't have too much power. That was and probably still is what audiophiles will tell you. But designing power distribution systems for a living I had to come to grips with the problem of how much power did I need for a particular application. In fact that's one of the first things I have to do, figure out how much I need, how much is already available, how much spare capacity is available, and if I need more how will I get it. It's the same with audio systems. Back in the day when a 10 watt amplifier was big a huge efficient horn speaker could fill a theater. I've got a project where it will take 1000 watts per channel to fill a small room. When is power insufficient, when is it adequate, when is it a reasonable safety margin, and when is it absurd overkill that not only wastes money but risks damaging your speakers? Is a 500 watt per channel amplifier the right choice for a Klipschorn? Is a 3 watt per channel SET amplifier right for Magico S7s? (Love those 300Bs, use the Magicos as headphones 🤩)
Here's an experiment I'd like to see Jay perform. It won't cost you anything because you can return the equipment and it's not heavy.
I'd like to see Jay connect his S7s to a single Crown 2502 amplifier 775 wpc into 4 ohms, and to two of them bridged 2400 watts each into 4 ohms. Is there a difference? The amplifiers cost under $800 each.
This right here! I see so many audiophiles make the mistake of thinking more power is better when it is simply not the case. Jay is honestly inexperienced if thinking mono's sound better because of more power when its more likely that the sonic improvement has to do with noise reduction.
Buy a oscilloscope and hook it up. If you amp isn't clipping at your preferred listening level, chances are that you don't need more wattage.
Ha exactly. Just to see how they drive. Still sound like shit. But shit with good controll.
Thanks Jay . . . beautiful presentation ! Question: If I were to start looking into either stereo / mono-amps to match up with my speakers, what power rating/ratio should I look at if my speakers max capability is, say 100 Watts ? Should I look at 100Wat amps, 200W, or even less ?
Hi Jay- I have the 860A V2 and I have tried them as well as some other amps in monoblock mode and each time I hear a reduction in the cohesiveness of the image. Especially noticeable on vocals. This has kept me in stereo mode.I just changed preamps to the ARC 6SE so am back to thinking about monoblocks.
Have you found this loss of cohesiveness and remedied by changing speaker positioning?
We connected a few years back when I first got the 860A V2 and you had a question. Continued success with your channel.
Gary
Thanks Jay. Very useful episode.
Glad it was helpful!
One of your best videos, Jay!
Thanks
I agree 💯 with your thoughts being over 30 years as an audiophile. Great job Jay.
I suppose that mono's can be placed closer to the Loudspeakers using short Loudspeaker cables, then using longer XLR cables to the Preamplifier (less loss than LS Cables).
great explanation !
This was interesting and I value your opinions because of your vast experience with amplifiers and speakers. I am not so clued up and it would of been nice if you could of basically explained what is the practical difference in the use of Mono and Stereo amps. (Why are they different does one amp serve two speakers and Monos serve one speaker each or do monos serve the parts of the speaker eg tweeter, bass midrange..?)
So all speakers benefit from more power? Not just inefficient ones?
Well I'm considering buying 2xMonoblocks to power my pair of Quad ESL 2905 but my Pre-amplifier is a Denon AVC-X8500HA feeding the line out RCA signal to the dual monoblock amplifiers. The other loudspeakers I have are Tannoy Dual Concentrics and 2xLD Systems 18 inch active Professional audio subwoofers. Great thing about the Denon is the ability to turn off it's internal audio amplifiers and just output the line out of RCA and the dual SUB/LFE supposedly to reduce "clipping", not that there is any if set-up properly, but there's that option.
The other good thing is that the line out RCA and SUB/LFE signal can be processed using the Audyssey room correction or not, as well as it has a Direct sound option for unprocessed pure signal as the source intended even if the Aydyssey room correction is set-up to drive the internal amplifiers or the RCA - SUB/LFE out. If it wasn't for the Quad ESL electrostatic loudspeakers I could get away not wanting to use any monoblock amplifiers and just get along with the Denon driving the Quad ESLs as it can easily do so. But...there's always that little extra thing to be done in relation with extra power and channel separation with a wider soundstage and plenty of headroom, plus the fact that I always wanted to have a good pair of monoblock amplifiers to run a good pair of electrostatic loudspeakers.
Jay , one of the best video you’ve done thus far! Have you ever owned a monoblock amp in one chassis and what is your take on those ? ❤
Yes I have. Gryphon Memphisto
Thanks Jay!
My pleasure
I own the typical difficult load speaker, Thiel CS 3.7 and i know they will improve a lot going Monos in the future.
Yes
Very interesting but your last advice really threw the spanners in the works as to brands which do mono and stereo amps (eg Hegel). You left out the most important element in that what is the difference in sound presentation between Stereo Amp and Mono Amp...?
Just out of curiosity, how far do you position your speakers and what's your listening distance?
About 9 feet away from me.
Went to Evolution Home Theater yesterday and met with Scott. Premiered the Sonus Faber Aida 2's. The craftsmanship up front of the Italians is breathtaking. He had Moon audio Dac and Mcintosh. I think with my Rossini APEX dac with separate master clock and my 452 Vac mono's would sound even better with Sonus Faber's. Burning in my new dragon speaker cables and will go back to listen again soon when I have more time.
Nice set up that Scott has for sure!
@@jaysaudiolab Yeah the bass on la temp passe was impressive. Haven't had bass go up through the concrete into my body and surge back down since Snoop Dogg and Dr Dre concert when the first toured back in the early 90's in Atlanta.
One question - is it better to locate the power amp close to the speaker and send the signal to the amp via balanced XLR cables or locate the power amp close to the source and have long speaker cables. Let’s assume the resource is 15-20 feet from the left speaker and the right speaker a further 12 - 15 feet away.
You guys almost always place the source pre and power amps in the centre behind the front of the speakers - that is with a 2 channel solution. This does not always work for my rooms.
Bi-amp (passive-active) vs mono ??
I really like sealed enclosure speakers. No ports. For more bass add a sub.
Finally a reviewer who says the truth clearly and with force! Thanks for enlightening us, it really makes a difference !
Thanks
Psu headroom in monos is the main reason for a better sound and better low level listening. Less cross talk
Yep
i own bw801d4 with the big ass room 55 square metre room. now i'm using michi x5 350w/ch and will soon upgrade to stereo amp Michi s5 500w/ch. The confusion of stereo and mono bring me here. thx for your video. the speaker is 90db sensitivity. what do you suggest? thanks
Consider my consultation service for this. I don’t do recommendations without learning more about someone’s system.
In my opinion, before upgrading from a stereo amp to mono ones we should first check the quality of the preamp that is connected to the power amp. In a given system I will first upgrade the preamp to the best I can within the budget [preferred to be from the same manufacturer as this will create a better matching with the power amp] .going the other way around and starting the upgrade from a stereo power amp moving to monos, the limitations of the existing preamp won't give those mono's "the chance" to unlock their full potential as this preamp dictate the quality of the units after it. In those ultra-high-end systems, the quality of the source is critical, no other link in the chain that comes after the source is able to fix the one befor it.
Good advice
Have you explored the world of high efficiency speakers with low powered amps, tube or SS? It's a very different approach, but given your experience with this side of high-end audio, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. I've never had the opportunity to hear the kind of systems you review and I have naturally been drawn to lower power tube systems with higher efficiency/higher impedance speakers. I'm very interested in the differences. I also feel that based on your recent comments about vinyl, you might enjoy this other approach to audio.
Also, how large is your room, and what is a typical dB level of your listening?
Some day in the future I will
In most cases with the money you save going for a stereo and invest in better cables you can get even more than the difference between the amps.
I believe what he's saying is correct.Having said that my stereo amp grips my speakers very well.
Great
If there is no advantage to buying monos from the same manufacturer as the stereo amp, is there an advantage to buying monos with the same power output as the stereo amp? For example, 250W (max) 6.5 ohm speakers with 85dB sensitivity, driven by a 140 W/ch (8 ohms) stereo amp vs. 140 W (8 ohms) monos.
Many more twin outboards on boats in Hawaii. You will live if one quits. Different designs have different benefits, and expenses. I have Red Dragon M500 Mk2 monos I got 2 for $1100. I completely agree with Jay on the headspace observation. My Tekton OB Sigmas disappear when you feed them wattage. Monos can help the look of your system, masquerading as book ends if you don't like the breaker box look. So I would say if you see a nice deal go for it.
Ok
I'm really looking forward to your review of Apex Gryphon.
Coming soon
$30 to $40K for some amps? Holy crap! There would be no debate mind - I am not buying anything that costs that much.
thoughts on boulder 1106 vs gryphon essence vs m10x
That's what my consultation is for... To answer your specific needs...
@@jaysaudiolab when the time comes.. but would make for good content for the channel
@@Music_time82 ive been in the game for a while.. get within 70-80% maybe.. but smash? no. Especially not in ultimate resolution.
@@InnovativeBuildersmd you're right
Magnifico.👋👋👋👋👋👋
Thanks
I upgraded to Pilium Achilles stereo and am very happy with it. Now I am wondering how much better the monos will be … lol
Lol
@@jaysaudiolab Jay you are a fan of Magico and I noticed on the visit they use Pilium. However you are a fan of Boulder. Did you find they have a better synergy with Magicos than Boulder does?
The main different in my opinion is usually one power cable for 2 channel power amplifier, but this is not the case for Pilium Achilles, as they provide 2 power cable socket in, so you do not expect big difference when you move to monos.
@@jamesyu8183 I don’t have the room for the monos even if I have the fund. Haha
@@enniol8043 yes...
I my view monos are nwtrwe due to separat power supplies. Not the power itself (watt) I have both amps in stereo and monos. Power out put is the same. But it still sounds stronger and better. But that's kinda a no brainer. Less cross talk. Monos if possible. But only due to the seperat power supplies.
Yes
To me always money goes to speakers !
So if a speaker needs a lot of power, efficiency of the power transfer is low. Not a good idea.
Interesting
Yes Jay power is key! It takes 505 watts to double the loudness of a 35 watt amp.
Isnt it bonkers! That's why i like high efficiency big driver speakers with high quality set tube amps best value tone texture and meat on the bone.
Yep
I think monos are much better sounding. More power also gives you a much better sound. I have very powerful monos and no matter how loud, the sound is never harsh or conjested. You need power for that. A stereo amp has crosstalk of the two channels. By eliminating that, the sound is also better. I too have played around with mega kit. I wont mention brands, but some Jay mentions here. But if a cheap stereo is enough, thats really good too. And you save thousands too!
One house or two houses, how much do you wanna spend on boulder amps 😂 wish I could though 😂😂
All right, I’ll say what a lot of you won’t, I just like the looks of mono blocks, vs a single stereo amplifier. I do believe a single power source, feeding into one speaker will help efficiency, however is it a difference I can hear, probably not. I would dare to say, a quality stereo receiver vs mono blocks, the difference is negligible.
The difference is there between receiver and monos
This hobby is not about spending the maximum amount of money to get to any system level - its about spending the minimum . You also have to consider what the resale value is going to be on any purchase you make or you may end up swallowing a very bitter pill when it comes to sell. it's not so bad spending a fortune on a system if you can flip it at any time and get almost all your money back - and for that I recommend buying used when possible. The best systems I have heard have not come from folks just throwing stacks of hundreds -its been the folks who have done lots of experimenting - bought used - went to audio shows and did lots of small tweaks. Remember that your room is critical - if its too small you are not going to get great bass ..... if its uneven you will have imaging issues. You MAY like the sound of horns - even if Jay does not - if so you will save a fortune on a tube amp which will sound amazing and cost under 4 grand - for pre amp - if you are digital only - you can save a fortune by getting a Pass labs B1 buffer instead of an $$$$$ pre. for 50 grand total you should be able to put together and incredible system .
I can do it multiple options for 25
Agreed
Seems like the only fair test is to compare a stereo amp to a pair of monos of the same price. It is unsurprising that monos sound better when you are spending a lot more money on amplification.
Yep
Must be 👌 NICE being SUPER rich!
I guess it should be. I wouldn't know
Some of the prices are quite sarcastic.
I can understand
If you're getting a End High equipment you simply cannot live in a apartment because those neighbors will complain and those thousand of dollars you spend is useless. It's better to live close to freeway I can listen to references level without complaining from neighbors. That's the big advantage living close to freeway or far away from neighbors some of you guys or if you live in condos it's better to sound proof your surroundings.
Set tubes, large high efficiency speakers, big drivers, moving a lot of air a little , far better than small drivers moving a little air a lot.
And shitloads cheaper!
Understood
Cheaper can be acceptable for some but won't cut it for those requiring ultra high end reproduction where lowest distortion faithful to the original signal are true requirements
Coda 16.0......first 100watts A
Very good
Hegel isn't special in my opinion, because the transient response (especially in the mids) and the resolution in the highs isn't that great at all. Dan Dagostino?...oh yes, absolutely!
Mono doesn’t mean more power.
There are dual mono stereo amps that will be best of both worlds. If you don't have the power infrastructure in your home it might just be a waste to go monos. Minus the generally increased specs in monos (and cost) if u has side by side comparable components y I doubt you would notice even 10 percent gains for 70 percent more cost. There is nothing functionaly preventing a stereo amp performing similarly just different designs and topologies . ( Again with in you 15 or 20amp electrical service envelope ) ideally you would have solo 20amp service per amp and one more 15 amp for you pre and or dac. Remember jay is psycho and you can approach what we has for far less. And better yet don't listen to things out side you price envelope or you will be unhappy.. snr is a bigger factor then power current and slew rates would be next .... If your a sane person look as the specs of a coda cs16 amp even the big boy AVMs .... The boulders are great no question but it's 30 to 60 k in parts and labour in 300k price tag. For about the same snr as coda. In fact high end boulder is the only thing to recommend from them because there lower end amps are not really competitive for the money spent
One day coda will be here
@@jaysaudiolab I do really want your opinion on them . Everyone wants boulders but more likely most ppl could eventually get into something at 10 to 30k
While I understand not many choose to or can afford the truly best, for me I have difficulty listening to the distorted and contortionist messes that most systems are even in the several hundreds of thousands.
@@davidcross890 well the best or best for the money thats a pretty vague and unqualified statement you made at some point even in your vagaries based reality sets in and your at one price range or another and inside that range there is the best preforming piece and the piece you like the sound of the best and from there the rest of you system fits according, to many ppl do chose the speaker they want first and dont regard the amp with much interest, but i digress im wasting a lot of key stokes on some one that brings nothing to the conversation
@@markw7303 First, the Absolute Best is currently made built and in use but Not Manufactured. It's my invented Proprietary technology. I am not giving it away. I have been quite fortunate to invent some extreme technologies and money makers, and with those fortunes I have been able to explore inventing and developing and building the outer depths of what's possible in several disciplines. If you believe Nicholai Tesla or the like did not bring anything to the conversation then so be it...
But, I guarantee unless you live in a cave much of the extreme comforts and day to day luxury, and common day to day living interactions most all people in the world have is through my invented technologies. Not joking on that. I for one have never settled for what I cared for with second best. Won't start now. If it's important to me I either create what's missing and required or improve the generic junk offered as bread and circuses to the masses. My Manufacturered Inventions to name a few... finest and most efficient light sources with no equal, finest protective communications, finest power EVER created, Finest image reproduction, and several others. I just create the best when called to the test by gifts I was given and developed. I look forward to all of the audio community realizing what's been missing. My vast range of friends and I are quite interested in fixing this in many ways sadly broken hobby and restoring a new benchmark of REAL QUALITY at levels above what is considered today Ultra High End. My Best with Respect...
Just buy Dan D'Agostino Amps and end the chasing game! Hey Jay are you still chasing your sound? Why you always trying new gear? Reviewer? I remember I had 2 Brystons monos and when I got a big McIntosh to replace them both the McIntosh killed both those big guys easy
Yes that's what my channel is about... Try and review
Do You really think those are Ultra High End amplifiers?
..wow over 300 amplifiers eh?…I’m in awe..LOL
Yes