An Introduction to Estocs and Thrust Oriented Longswords
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- Swords and Swordsmen by Mike Loades
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The Illustrated World Encyclopedia of Knives, Swords, Spears & Daggers by Harvey J. S. Withers & Dr. Tobias Capwell
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The swords I show in the video:
Lockwood Sl-1009 (Oakeshott Type XVIIIb longsword)
ww4.aitsafe.com...
Windlass Steelcrafts 17th century Italian rapier:
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Two more examples of a historical estoc / tuck in museums, with measurements:
www.clevelandar...
www.philamuseum...|1
More about half-swording:
• Half-swording - Why gr...
Music:
"Dark Descent" by Matthew Pablo
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"I am not R1 spamming. I am merely employing refined historical thrusting techniques that deftly target the gaps in your armor..."
- The Neo-Estoc User
The Chad Estoc-Enjoyer vs the Virgin Greatsword User
"R1 R1 R1 O O O O O *ESTUS* R1 R1 R1"
-Sun Tzu "excerpt from the Art of War"
Tekhartha Zenyatta a wise technique indeed
I think you'll find that the original text actually calls it Sunny D
Oooo thats good i really want to change it now, but i cant...
That *edited* mark would haunt me til the end of my days.
... *starts unscrewing pommel*
Lol
These are Thrusties. They love to thrust; in thrust they trust, and thrust they must.
Ah, a rare Dungeons of Dredmor reference. Thumbs up, good sir.
Bravo. Love DoD.
Trusty Thrusties
and no matter what, inside a woman they won’t thrust
"harness the power of whatever and like, stuff"
EMOMANCY!
1:20 Estoc is a French word, meaning R1 spam.
After all, French and Latin make everything sound fancy.
Skal just summed up the entire Dark Souls PvP community
PaulieRipFace00 *smashes humanity* *chugs divine blessing*
So dark souls has armor physics?
@@mihailmilev9909 he was referring to the intro bit. R1 spamming is the PVP meta.
0:00 - 1:27 DEX build
1:33 - 2:06 INT build
Ironically the intended gimmick of the estoc in those games is that it has some slashing attacks, where the normal rapier has only thrusts. They got em switched around.
He mentions that's some estocs could slash. There aren't unbreakable rules in production and usage of weaponry, especially in feudal era
@@theProClaimer This is especially true when you look at some of the weirder weapons produced in the time. Things that clearly weren't the most effective design, and that if you made in a show or book people would scoff at. Yet, some Lord told his blacksmiths that THIS is exactly what he wanted, and so they made it.
>skall
>estoc memes
Oh shit. This thing is contagious.
"tries to use greentexting outside 4chun"
i can tell that you are new
ITS CALLED LE MEME ARROWS XD BRUH
*BRUH*
@@DARKERanimexxXxx greentexting is far more widespread in Russian communication and is not limited in imageboards only. That's what is called a cultural difference.
To end thy opponent swiftly and deadly, repeatedly make use of R1 until the scoundrel is smitten. -Velka Fechtbuch
Smite? Smoten?
Grammatically smitten in this case is right because it's a past participle but sounds weird because of the other usage of the term.
The more I know...*rainbow*
yes, but why mash r1 when you can just throw a pommel? 🤔
Stiff things do penetrate better, in my opinion.
Zerachiel van Mark I'm gonna shag, then try to shag again _immediately_ afterwards in order to get experimental data.
Yeah, try penetrating with nunchaku.....meh. =/P
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Indeed! I find that gripping halfway up the length of the item helps to improve stiffness during penetration.
Freedom Man
In addition, grabbing hold of said item to be penetrated helps, as one can also push against it to aid withdrawal, especially if one intends on multiple, deep, thrusts ...
(Innuendo...? Whadda mean ...? I was thinking about using balistic gelatine during test cutting/thrusting ... any other inference drawn is your own grubby mind ... )
*sigh* so Skall leveled Dex after all...
Dex is the godstat of 5e
that's true but im doing a Str-based Swashbuckler and im having a blast with him
Dex is best!
And Ultima Online..!! :D
Sharp astora greatsword is the best sword.
The intro is too accurate
The *point* of the *estoc*
Beautiful.
you forgot to point down
And spin on a circle when doing it
pointeth
d o w n w a r d
point down meta
R1R1R1R1R1R1
*dark souls credits*
Arty Knighto [Nameless Song Intensifies]
Arty Knighto dark souls end credits into bloodborne open credits
YOU DIED
Exactly the intro this topic deserved. Thanks Skall. Now I have to contact NASA to go retrieve the sides that intro launched into orbit.
Koyomi Araragi Stop harassing your sister and keep your dirty fingers from little girls!
edi He can't help it if she really wanted that toothbrush...
Hard nope
@@sterlingmuse5808 wtf is going on
@@mihailmilev9909 It's an anime reference, to what I think was the original commenter's name was back when they commented 4 years ago.
*"An Introduction to Erotics and Thrust Oriented Longswords"*
Zm_ranger *"Stiff things penetrate better"*
Here in Poland we have a saying that roughly translates as "When you are hungry, bread comes to mind".
Zm_ranger someone needs to make that hentai happen...
"Try thrust but hole"
CrazyChemistPL here in Greece we have a similar saying which says that a hungry man dreams of bread.
Just parry it bro
Disparage message?
(Yes). No.
*u r ded
Thrust, but hole!
@@shaegis heyyyy! I get it XD
Git gud
The estoc is by far my favorite medieval sword/ weapon. I love the idea of a long as rondel dagger with a real gaurd lol
I still struggle to see what the advantage over a pole weapon is. If you're not cutting with it anyways, then why shape it like a sword? A lance can do everything a estoc does, while being lighter and cheaper.
Sure, a wooden shaft can perhaps (not as easy as people think) be chopped through, but that is why most late medieval pole weapons had metal bands running down the upper shaft, to prevent that.
@@TrangleC lance is designed to be a shock weapon only ever used on horseback, and after the first use would often shatter. You can't reuse wood fragments the same way you could reforge a broken sword.
Skallagrim literally explained the estoc's niche, which is exploiting the gaps in plate armor on foot. It can still do solid blunt damage from a swing as well. As a sword, it will be much easier to handle than any large polearm, much less a lance.
@@GothicSoldier9000 I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't know for sure whether the definition of "lance" is the same as it is in my language ("Lanze" in German), but in German the difference between a lance and a spear is that the spear is a wooden pole with a metal tip, while a lance is made of all metal or mostly metal, or a wooden pole encased in metal.
So the shattering isn't really the issue, at least not if the English definition of lance is similar to the German one, which it might not be, but I assume it is, because otherwise you would have 3 different names for the same thing: spear, pike and lance.
That sword-like character of the estoc is what I don't get, or better said, I get it if you are fighting on foot and want to parry sword blows with it, but you aren't really doing that on horseback.
So rapiers could be used for slashing attacks but estocs can't?
Dark Souls movesets going strong since 2011.
u dont wanna be slashed by a rapier
@@albaker9443 ?
@@MrSamulai In DS Estoc has slashing attacks in its moveset, while rapiers usually only thrust :D
@ Yes?
Dark Souls and Elden Ring confused the 2. But since they are japanese games ill forgive them...for now...
The weird "Polish estoc" looks like something I've seen in relation to hussars - it was a one-handed version used from a saddle - a backup weapon allowing the hussars to maintain their reach after using up the lance.
you mean "koncerz"
@@dm_9428 yes and no. names are horribly inconsistent when it comes to blades.
"stiff things penetrate better"-Skal 01/02/18
Thrust me Skaddy!
madcat789 I hate your clever pun
Please no..But also, oh yes Skaddy.
For the love of god don't let this start becoming a thing. I write this as I am slightly intoxicated. If drunk me does not approve, you should not either.
No, just no, stop
"Your heart will explode..."
Go home C'thun, you're drunk.
Great vid on medieval estocs, Skall. :-)
To this day, I don't understand why people think every thinner historical blade had to be used for bypassing armour. The "rapier = anti-armour" misconception annoys me as well.
That polish "estoc" is actually essentially an iron lance with a sword grip called a koncerz. They were EXTREMELY long (over 50 inches), and only served as a thrusting weapon on horseback. Not really all that similar to the use of the estoc or tuck in western Europe.
Exactly. It was basically a disposable weapon/1 time use. It was different from a Estoc as it was used in a single hand not double handed/half sword ingredients like the estoc.
Held in the left hand, Crystal Mage and regular Rapiers and most curved swords can be used to parry by pressing L2. The rapiers have the same animation of the parrying dagger, but curved swords have a fancy flip parry.
*Stiff things penetrate better*
Who would have thought
That's what she said
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Why do you tag as entertainment instead of education? I always feel like you are teaching us more than entertaining us
That's probably true, but Skall makes a particular point of not claiming to be an expert and that what he says is his opinion only, also that some of the testing he does is not as realistic as he or others might like.
They need an edutainment tag.
Education video's are far more likely to be demonetized due to content. That tag is really not worth the hassle.
videos tagged as Educational are demonized more quickly and often than those tagged as Entertainment
This doesn't make sense one bit. OTOH; youtube doesn't make sense one bit.
Random Dark souls joke? Yes please
Touka Lockheart funny thing is I've been playing dark souls for years and I don't recognize that nickname. 🤔
I was refering to the joke at the begining
ixflqr probably because you didnt watched souls youtuber creating meta memes.
The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Skallnan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts, not pommels. _points to Estoc_ This you can thrust
"Swords can cut , but this can penetrate the soul. This can thrust. And thrust you can trust. And thrust you must" -
Thank you for this intro to the Estoc! Having never even seen one in person, this is my (theoretically) favorite sword!
I always thought this would be perfect in movies since mostly everyone only knows how to slash either super fast or super hard.
I never know what to write here. Uh, kisses?
I heard Polish Hussars carried a saber and a estoc as their standard "loadout". A interesting combination in my eyes, because I don't know any other examples of soldiers carrying 2 different, specialized kinds of swords around.
I appreciate the use of Dark Souls meems Mr Skall.
Meems? Did you mean meymeys?
Dagome Iudex I think i misspelled myeeyms
"stiff things penetrate better" skall 2018
R1 master race
What a coincidental encounter
R1 at a incredible speed
Giant dad master race
what rings u got bitch
None, I have cool earrings though.
I raise you this: Polish Koncerz! An estoc having usually between 1,3 to 1,6 meter long blade (sometimes even 1,8), used by Polish cavalry when their lances shatter during the charge. And it was actually used against Cossaks, Crimean Tatars, Russians and Ottomans, who were using chainmail sometimes even in the early years of XVIII century. Try fencing with this thing ;)
Also, they were mostly one-handed, with saber crossguard.
can someone tell me if they were used with shields ;w;
Bashkuch :3 I don't think so, but maybe? If they were, it was propably by either Pancerni (heavy cavalry, but not as elite as Winged Hussars), or Pospolite Ruszenie (mobilized nobility armed with whatever they had), though both units prefered sabers. Sorry to shatter your dreams ;) Although I plan to buy a copy of a koncerz just to see how could it be used on foot ;) I could imagine more than a few people trying to half-sword it, turning it basically into a short steel spear ;)
But why?
Ross Dickson Propably to keep reach advantage, especially when fighting infantry. Also, it was primarily used by Winged Hussars. Why it is important? Lances of Polish Hussars were designed to shatter on impact, to deliver as much of force as possible without redirecting part of it into the hussar (lances were also only part of their equipment provided by King), but it left them at a disadvantage afterwards, until they regrouped and were rearmed. Koncerz allowed them to deal with this disadvantage, but (as you may have figured out) it was always a niche weapon. Most hussars, especially the poorer ones, still prefered to use just straight or curved sabers instead.
That was the best intro ever
The boar sword was super cool/interesting. I'd love to hear more about 'special use' weapons, or weapons for hunting in general.
"All swords weigh 3.5Lbs"
I was doing a lot of looking into Rapier Weights, and I had been given a museum's catalogue of weapons. It was interesting in that even a 16th century claymore was listed as 3.5 pounds.
it lead to the above quote being used quiet a bit at the gaming table.
You may be drawn to those slender blades but I've always been a sucker for a thicc boi.
So basically the estoc just isn't going to cut it but your opponent will still get the point.
had to be done. No regrets.
Well played, sir. Well played.
“Getting hit in the head with the steel bar is not a pleasant experience” - added to the golden fund of quotes
Rapiers can cut but estocs can't? Oddly they reversed that in Dark Souls
Yeah, they got that totally backwards. A rapier isn't the best cutter, but it can cut. A proper estoc blade is less of a blade and more of a long, metal spike.
I think of it as a long Rondel Dagger with a proper hilt, really.
wellguesswhatIthink video games are bullshaight...who would've thunk it?
Darrian Weathington Dark Souls is surprisingly less bullshit than most, though. Still a lot of dung pie, but WAY less than other series.
A lot of people, when you say rapier, think of later style swords: smallswords or Spanish rapiers.
technically, if you put an acute blade on one of those giant anti-castle battering rams, you could pierce plate armor directly.
Good luck moving one of those things faster than someone with two legs. They would have to move less than two feet left or right and render a strike useless, and that's assuming they were unwilling to turn
you know, the Romans have just the thing for your issue there.
@@AMoodyB3ar ?
I find your lack of innuendos disturbing
It hurts my brain, yeah.
what are you stupid? he made an innuendo about stiff swords penetrating better...
David, it's all in your head.
Go watch Scholagladiatoria, that should make up for it. Also: 6:11.
"stiff things penetrate better... who would have thought" -Skall... sounds innuendoish to me
Need more of these educational videos for those not really knowledgeable about Medieval warfare. I find yours especially easy to understand and entertaining than say the ones people keep referring to in the comments.
*R1 intensifies*
Infinity *click*
upvote! Enjoy your gold!
I dont get why yall say thank you for likes
Good overview on the Estoc. One thing that's worth pointing out though is that a lot of surviving Estocs actually have deeply hollow ground triangular cross-sections very much like that of a smallsword. In fact, I think close to 50% or more of the original Estocs I've seen are actually made this way.
The guy that invented the boar sword must have felt so proud, only to realize that he'd basically just reinvented the boar spear 😂
I've been actually really wondering about estocs for the past couple days. This video was perfectly timed.
gives me
Conniptions...
The "Polish estoc" from the book is called "koncerz". It was used by heavy (winged) cavalry as thrusting weapon from horse against infantry. Koncerz was a one hand weapon.
Dark Souls 3 actually has wrong movesets for their thrusting swords. The generic R2 for a thrusting sword like the rapiers is a bigger thrust, whereas the estoc is a slash.
Since estocs don't have an edge it's safe to assume the developers mixed them up. It's funny since the slashing R2 was generally considered better, due to it's ability to combo, further making bestoc the one and true thrusting sword of the game.
Fattybot also funny that Ricard used a rapier, an everyday-folk weapon, and not something noble-like
Pretty sure all of the souls games have a slash on Estoc r2, Fromsoft seems to think that the Estoc is a dual slash/thrust weapon.
It was a Slash/Thrust type weapon in DS1 as well.
VirusesX01
Well, the rapier was fire imbued, so it was probably pretty noble by that regard.
I think it possible that the etymology of "tuck" could be from "tache", the old French for nail, which is the antecedent of the English word "tack". It certainly describes the tuck to a tee; no cutting edges, stiff four sided blade, mean to thrust into something. Just like a nail, or a tack.
I can't think of why anybody would have intentionally used a sword with no edge. Did this type of weapon have any advantage over, say, a small spear or dedicated thrusting polearm?
It's been a while since I've read swords and swordsmen, but if I remember correctly Loades describes a tuck bladed rapier as having a bit of flare near the tip that allows for slightly better cutting ability.
Yo Skall remember a game called For Honor?you made a review on it. Well the hero Warden is getting an execution called End him rightly or something like that, next week on Thursday
First place I really saw the estoc used was actually in Pillars of Eternity where it filled the role of “two-handed weapon for piercing damage”. I didn’t know how an estoc differed from other two-handed swords before that but PoE made me realise what it was for. Which may sound odd, but Obsidian did actually put a lot of thought into the three physical damage types - piercing, bludgeoning, and slashing - and how well certain armours would protect against each and which ones particular weapons tended towards (ie; breastplates got a bonus against piercing damage to reflect how the curvature would help deflect certain blows while mail armour would get a bonus against slashing damage but had a serious *penalty* against bludgeoning damage).
Mind you; it sure how realistic it is for scale armour to be more vulnerable to piercing than the other types, but if it’s not realistic then I’m gonna assume that was just a case of “well we need scale to be weak against something”.
Its more the "two handed armor penetration" weapon than just two-handed piercing.
So enter Mordhau. And you can wield the Estoc in a Murder-Stroke grip.
And couch it on horseback
One of my favorite types of weapon.
R1 R1 R1 R1 R1 R1 R1
Bestoc is for casuls, pommel is for pros.
Edit: It's SL1009? I don't think you can reach that SL in Dark Souls.
;)
You can reach that level if you aren't a *FILTHY CASUAL*
.
Oh yeah. I think it's because I leveled Dex...
I’ve been watching this channel for a long, long time and have never been able to subscribe but today, I will.
BUT DOES IT GRANT POISE?
I was freaking waiting for this
Estocs are very rarely discussed anywhere, time to watch
"R1 R1 R1 R1 R1 Arwan Arwan Arwan Arwan"
Arwan the legendary warrior
That XVIIIb is so dang beautiful, I can't stop looking at it.
wow after watching the video i want the devs of dark souls to change the horizontal attacks to blunt now that would be nice
that would be great. i'm a life long estoc user and always had to carry an hammer to swap to for skeletons and other thrust resistant enemies. although in DS3 this seemed less of an issue.
I like a combo of thrust and cuts.
I play dark souls with keyboard and mouse
Fight me
I play with onscreen keybord. Because I only have a mouse.
Hellios55 well in that case I’ll win lol
Dance mat or nothing
That’s how you really play souls
Now that's some next level masochism
Props to you if you're good with it. And I don't mean good in the condescending way, I mean if you can pull that off, more power to you.
I find the guard near the point so interesting. It looks so bazaar but it seems very practical for stopping a charging boar
I clicked on this video to make an R1 comment
I have been bested
Bestoc-ed
Polish estoc was called "koncerz", it was used by hussars as one of the side-arms after the lance was broken.
*''stiff things penetrate better''*
An interesting descendant of the estoc is the polish koncerz, essentially a typical Hussars sabre handle with a estoc blade. Used one handed from horseback against mail clad opponents.
Lengths between 1.2m and 1.4m blade length, with some up to about 1.8m
Another interesting development of the estoc design was that some had dedicated blunted sections to half sword with.
The true question is: can you unscrew the pommel of an estoc?
Looking for such a comment.
Surprised that there is almost no pommel jokes in this comment section. Could it be that pommel jokes are dying off?
THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE
1st of all, Skal don't try to make us stop spamming pommels thus ending the coment section rightly. Secondly, the meme has survived 500 years, why should it die off now?
Probably already said but the rapier was by no means only for civilian defense and was used massively in large scale combat.
Just thought I would clarify on its uses
I meet your r1 spam with an l2 and a chaos Dagger
I'm no swordsman or swordsmith, but I was told by what I consider a reliable source that an edgeless blade (such as the one you'd find on some of the weapons you mentioned), particularly with a triangular, square, or diamond cross-section, is called a foil. Its only function is for thrust attacks and penetration, like a long bayonet. Also I could be wrong but I believe fencing swords are called foils for the same reason.
Moveswap...... then Running-R1 Running-R1 Running-R1 Running-R1 Running-R1 Running-R1 Running-R1 Running-R1 Running-R1 Running-R1 Running-R1 Running-R1 Running-R1 :D Great Chest Ahead!
Thats my favorite Longsword type! Oakshotte 18b, such a lovely elegant design.
I prefer curved swords, they've got pretty nice attack animation and do good dual wielding
Interesting. As an add, say that in the later medieval Spain (all the kingdoms), Italy and France, stoc were not only the "pure" stocs, but also the thrusting longswords with cutting blades. In general, it was called stoc to any sword carried by an man at arms or knigth.
I'm french, did not know that estoc is a French word, and definitely did not know it meant thrusting for me it was just the name of the weapon o:
In Spain, "estoque", the word for estoc, is a straight one handed sword used for thrusting. Im not sure if it was meant to fight armour but i believe it had the same function as the rapier or "espada ropera". Nowadays "estoques" are still used as a weapon in bullfights.
Don't level dex casual.
wut r u, casul?
wat rinsg you got bithc
We parry kings level Dex. If you can't handle it, get gud.
You sound like a filthy uchi peasant
Ulf Ravndal Let us watch as these plebs attempt to smite us with their strength builds whilst we parry away every single hit.
Always nice to learn from you . ⚔️🤺
You sure know how to thrust with your stiff and rigid sword.
A single-handed Polish cavalry version of estoc was generally refered to as koncerz.
So.....Stabby McStabSword?
"Stiff things penetrate better, who would have thought" Wise words sir, wise words
Could you do a video comparing maces with flails with their pros and cons?
Flails didnt really exist. They are not true battlefield weapons because they are too dangerous to use.
Debilinside *Theyre badass tho*
I think Germany did deploy troops armed with the Footman Flail "Big wooden 2 handed flail" in large enough numbers that it was noteworthy, but very small numbers still.
As for your traditional flail, I don't recall any military force deploying troops using them in vast amounts. However, I wouldn't say they were never used on the battlefield. Their effectiveness might not have been impressive enough to be written down. I'm sure some warriors used them, but certainly not your common militia or conscript. They just take so much time to master.
I agree it's needed and wanted for his video collection on his utube channel.
The beginning was awesome !
R1 R1 R1 R1 R1 R1
The estoc has been my favorite sword long before dark souls came out. I love this sword, I've been waiting for this vid for so long.
I see longsword= Instant like!!
In terms of edge angle: less acute edge angles are worse at cutting not because there is more resistance but because more surface area of the edge contacts the target and this larger surface area reduces the localized contact pressure. It's all about pressure unless sawing motion is happening.
Hole but thrust.
L 2D3cl that is a dark souls message if I ever read one
Thrust
But hole
If you ever find yourself owning a weapon with an "estoc style" blade, I'd love to see a video comparing it's efficiency against stuff like the weapon you were actually holding in this video.
Estoc Bestoc
6 seconds into the video and you already won my like.
Skall you are the best